and no embarrassing odor. break the grip of pain with aspercreme. it the latest, greatest epidemic american schools, cheating, the chem ski tests, s.a.t.s, teachers cheating, how widespread is it really? i'm christine romans, don't cheat yourself, you need to start saving now for the holidays, i will show you five ways to save a thousand bucks in seven weeks. from kim kardashian to the bachelor to the millionaire matchmaker, come on is reality tv destroying the institution of mar snack but we begin with teacher pay and a new study that has teachers fuming a report by two conservative think tanks finds that american teachers are not under35id, as conventional wisdom holds they may be overpaid. the heritage foundation's jason richwine is a co-author of the report, called assessing the compensation of public school teachers. jason, your report states total compensation for public school teachers is 52% above fair market levels and when people switch from nonteaching jobs to become teachers, their wages go up 9%. you determined overall that teachers are not underpaid. explain. >> well, i want to say the main motivation for the report is this widespread perception, i actually call it a misperception that teachers are underpaid, we hear it from politicians, layman, republicans, democrats, we find it is just not true. as you mentioned, teachers who teach right now in public schools make about 50% more as teachers than they would in the private sector. and specifically, we don't think salaries are excessive fwherks right. the prin fringe benefits push teachers over the edge. >> fringe benefits like what? >> pensions, for example, government pensions are highly valuable benefits. if you look at the end benefit what people collect in retirement, ends being three or fuhr times more than what you can get with a 401(k). >> we will tweet a link to the entire report, the teachers fume writing now can look at the whole report and see your methodology. i want to bring in randy wine garth tonight discussion, president of the american federation of teachers. you say if teaching were such a lucrative profession, why would you have such high attrition in the first few years. you completely disagree with his analysis? >> this is what i thought when i read the analysis, i remember back to you know, kids these days, they have a great expression, are you kidding? he that's kind of what i thought about t but because the bottom line is this, if teaching was such a great profession, people would be banging down the doors to get in there and people wouldn't be leaving. in fact, i would like jason to spend one minute with me in one of the schools i taught in or all around the country because the bottom line is it is the only profession i know where people actually subsidize the work they do. if you look at the statistics, the statistics of similarly situated people, we are paid 14% less than those with the same education. what's worse is this, we want the best teachers to come into the profession, we want people to have great working conditions, we want do all that because we want kids to get a decent education, we should be doing what they do in singapore and south korea and finland. >> and that is -- >> paying teachers more. >> also elevating the profession. >> elevating the profession, focus on performance, getting teachers the tools and conditions they need and really make it into a high-status, high-performance profession. the piece about the study that i -- i just couldn't believe more than anything else was there was this premium for job security, when right now, since 2008, almost 300,000 teachers have been laid off. >> you know, randy said she would like to you spend one hour her, one minute at school, your wife was a public school teacher? >> that is correct. and i think shifting debate to the question of whether teaching is difficult is not the appropriate way to go here. of course, teaching is difficult. as i said, my wife was a public school teacher. i see how hard she works. but here is the point, lots of people work hard who are not teachers. the real question is what would teachers be fade they worked in the private sec snort answer is considerably less. this is not just some theoretical idea. we can actually watch what happens to wages when teachers move to a different per problem federal government, they get less when they move to a different profession, not more, which is completely at odds with the idea that current public school teachers are constantly temped by the much better salaries from the private sector. >> when i report on science, technology, engineering, math, the stem fields, jason, what i hear a lot from folks who are interested in maybe going intole schools is that, you know, it's -- it is a big at this time thoit take a job at ibm and be a public school teacher, a hit in salary and it's hard. i mean, teaching is a hard job. so tell me, how do we -- maybe this is where we can try to find common ground here. should we elevate proet federal government of teach willing, expectations of the profession and pay for performance profession and raise the pay of teachers and would that satisfy what we need in education? jason, you first? >> believe me, i want the best teachers to be paid a lot, absolutely, but you need flexibility for that before we install a good flexible pay program, we have to understand the current situation, which is that most teachers are, in fact, overpaid. right now, we don't have any flexibility, union contracts of the-stipulate that gym teachers have to make the same as math teachers, that's the reason why you have trouble with stem graduates. recruiting elementary school teachers is easy, often get 100 applicants per position. we need flexibility for sure. >> randi that is where you come in you hear reformer talk about union contracts and unions stand in the way of paying for performance and raising, you know, elevating the profession, obviously, i know you disagree that but you hear it a lot. >> so, this is -- let's talk about debunking myths. number one, in this had country in this country, half the districts don't have union contracts. the -- the states that do the best are the most unionized, maryland, massachusetts, minnesota. in the world, the countries that do the best are the most unionized. so this notion is just trying to blame -- blame people. what really disturbs me about jason's report, and it does actually give think tanks a bad name, is that he just said there is no premium for hard work, but yet, they figured out this bogus premium for job security of 8.6%. so if there should be a premium for these kinds of things, even though 300,000 teachers have been laid off since 2008, why shouldn't there be a premium for hard work? >> thank you for coming on. i'm going to to sweet the report, a lot of people can read all the nuts and bolts about it, randi you can as always, thank you for joining us. we will continue the discussion. both of you, please come back. a long island new yorker paid the same kid to take their s.a.t.s for them, did he pretty well, now everyone's busted. cheating, rampant, sore it? who's to blame, the kid, the schools? how about you, the parents? we will talk about that next. ignore him. with the capital one venture card you earn... double miles on every purchase. 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[ male announcer ] ask your doctor if cialis for daily use is right for you. for a 30-tablet free trial offer, go to cialis.com. it's this... the etrade pro platform. fast. beautiful. totally customizable. finds top performing stocks -- in three clicks. quickly scans the market for new trading ideas. it can even match options strategies to your goals and lets you see the potential risk and reward. and, it also comes with a dedicated elite service team. got it? get it. good. introducing new etrade pro elite. ♪ >> did you hear about john taylorselves in caught cheating. >> john taylor? >> cheating. >> cheating. >> cheating. >> john taylor? >> john taylor? >> john taylor. >> john taylor. >> you, a cheat, john? john, what have you done? >> one of our producers, christina, stumbled on this clip from a 1952 social ethics education film, we wanted to share it with you. cheating, a problem back then. 60 years later, has it changed? what is it today, the social stigma or the lack of it attached to cheating. is it a growing problem, if it is, who is to blame in the students, parents, school? its pressure we put on our kids? bring in education professor at nyu and the leader of the center for academic integrity and studying academic dishonesty for years. what comes to mind is two recent cases, one of school districts, teachers are cheating, they can live up to federal standards for their schools and progress and this other case on long island, you have got these kids who are hiring someone else to take their s.a.t. scores. don, cheating, more rampant today than it was before? >> somewhat, primarily due to the internet and also due to the fact that students just don't consider it a big deal anymore. ed in other i dark you go back to when i was in school, for example, when somebody cheated, they were looked down by their classmates. >> that film clip. surt acres have 43,000 high school students polled, 59% admitted to cheating on a test last year, 34% cheated more than twice. one in throw students used the internet to planlg rise assignments, so this survey would back up what you say? >> as a matter of fact, the surveys i have done of comparable population, i get slightly higher numbers. >> really? so pedro, a growing sentiment that maybe only the naive don't cheat that many people are cheating, i mean, the culture must be, well, i can do it, too. >> the context we have to place it in, not just students, edge care thes, teacher, principals, the pressure, the high stages, students want the competitive advantage when they apply to college, they want the highest test scores possible. what they need to know is caught cheating in colleges, most colleges will expel them immediately for even the first offense. but i also think had the context is that students are seeing cheating of various kinds going on in other sectors of society. from the financial sector to the banking sector and i think it keeps raising the question of to, well, is this -- who's right? are you wrong if you get caught or is this had simply the way things are done? it is a degradation of integrity across society? reflected of what students are doing and what's happening in schools? they see this example every place they look, look in the newspaper, reading a story about somebody in newspaper or politics and enter taint, doing it and getting away from t. >> smart schools should be using technology to sniff it out, students are using technology to cheat more there are ways that schools can try to fight back. do you thank you technology is a problem here or it is exacerbating it? >> it is with the play jarrism issue don spoke to think is pervasive. >> you think it is pervasive? >> i think it is. i it is so easy now to download material from the internet, hard to know where it comes from, kids very good at cutting and pasting, so, hard to know -- >> used to do research in books, right? go to the library works have the book and then would you condense the information and then write your paper, now, you are cutting and paying all this stuff from all over the place, not sourcing it very easy to cobble together a paper that way. >> it is. unfortunately. i think it makes the challenge for pro-ers to come one ways to counter it and i think twice counter it not completely, but things we can do i think the more important issue, how do we address the ethical issues where the whole country, but especially education, needs to take on more of a role and really talk about the ethical responsibilities. >> that is your job, you have been doing this 20 years, how do you address the ethics of it? >> i have been tracking with students who are doing more than addressing the ethics of it i have looked at the ethics of it and i disagree a little bit with pedro in the sense or perhaps you, that technology is one answer you could use but i don't think it is an answer students are comfortable with in the long run, we can stop them from cheating perhaps now but when they get out from under the surveillance full, they are going to cheat. i think we now need to go back and reinstill a sense of integrity in students. it is going to take a lot longer, be more difficult, in the long run, be better off. >> ask you guys about the s.a.t. issue you the s.a.t.s played a big role in the student's academic future, putting too much pressure on a single test, almost encouraging the cheating? the recent cheating scandal on long island almost seems in some parents' mind, inevitable what the college board told oust no one despises cheat morning, college board. the college board and our test administration and security vendor, ets, are committed to providing the most rig louse and best security available while not discouraging a single deserving student from pursuing their college aspiration. almost like cops engiving these tests, lacking the fundamental integrity in the first place, kids will find a way to cheat. >> you blame the s.a.t. or college board, think the problem is bigger than that i think don is right, we have got to really kind of address it from an ethical standpoint much more than we he do right now and -- but it can't just be in education, those go well beyond education. >> psas of that kid john taylor getting john taylor, john taylor, he's cheat. thanks, guys, nice to might, thanks for coming on board today. have you heard the one about the reality star, the nba player around the 72-day marriage that ended in public divorce? it is not just kim kardashian. from the batch terror bride zil las to the millionaire matchmaker, come on is reality tv destroying what is left of the institution of marriage? we are all over it, next. women men and uh pandas... elbows mmm [ male announcer ] wanchai ferry, try it yourself. this is what we can gather from an ordinary crash test dummy. two million data points. this is what we can gather from a lexus crash test genius. 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[ male announcer ] the new capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. what's in your wallet? sorry i'll clean this up. shouldn't have made it rain. in the past 72 days there have been five gop debates, the start of occupy wall street and the loss of am ceo steve jobs but the one headline everyone is talking about today, the marriage and now divorce of kim. dr. ludwig is a psychotherapist and married for over 20 years. have the relationships of others on tv trivialized the institution of marriage, on behalf of all of us out there have been married forever? >> i don't think so. i don't think we can use kim's marriage as an example of how people are experiencing marriage. but i think the take away here is we have somebody who married the wrong person for the wrong reasons. and it doesn't matter how beautiful your dress is or how lovely the wedding is or how many guests you have. marriage doesn't -- getting married doesn't make it right, doesn't make it last, and i think that's the important take away here. >> and i think this is an alternative reality. >> alternative reality tv because this isn't what it's like for most people. chuck can be seen on trutv. 44 years of marriage here altogether. >> exactly, right. >> was it all for money? was it all for cameras? was there any love in there? >> there was lovely involved. there was the love of money and cameras. that is what happened there. and quite frankly, look, every time your marriage is shorter than the life of a med fly, then you know you're full of crap, okay? >> clearly, this was not well thought out. when she said she got divorced on based on intuition, everybody's reaction is, look, you should have thought about this before you got married. >> the whole thing makes fun of marriage. no one wants to see your student debt or your credit card bills, live your separate lives and not get married. is this the beginning of the end? i think the truth of the matter is we don't know how to be married in this country. we have the idea it's all about feeling good, it's all about confusing pleasure with happiness, they're not one and the same. maybe we need to teach what it's all about. it's not about soap operas, it's not about the movies. am i right? >> i've been married for 14 years. what she is talking about is called commitment. you're not supposed to be happy. >> you're supposed to be happy sometimes. you're supposed to be working on being happy other times. it's not a straight line or -- >> it's also learning how to make the right choice in a partner. who are you choosing and why? are you choosing somebody that you like? are you choosing somebody where you're on the same page? you know, somebody who can grow with you? these are things that take maturity now. >> now, when i say you're not supposed to be happy. here is what i've learned in 14 years of marriage. i am happy when she is happy. >> that is true. >> happy wife, happy life. >> and happy wife, happy husband. >> yes. >> young couples getting out there, getting married, they face different things now. record student loan debt, they have a housing market that's terrible, a job market that's terrible. for real people in the real reality, what's the most important thing about money for people to bring this into a marriage? >> i think the honest about money and have a realistic plan and education yourself and bring in financial planners and people who can help you out with it. money is confusing and it brings a lot of psychological issues. >> do you think these shows are a bad influence for young couples? >> not really. if you're taking your cues from life from the kardashian reality show, you've got bigger problems and life and you shouldn't be getting married forever. >> that is true, but if they are idealizing themselves after people, then that's a problem. >> absolutely. >> so nice to meet you. first time on the show. thanks for coming. only seven weeks until christmas and all that big credit card debt that comes with it. you can start to control your spending now. i'm going to give you five ways to save $1,000 by the holidays. not kidding. that's next. luck? i don't trade on luck. i trade on fundamentals. analysis. information. i trade on tradearchitect. this is web-based trading, re-visualized. streaming, real-time quotes. earnings analysis. probability analysis: that's what opportunity looks like. it's all visual. intuitive. and it's available free, wherever the web is. this is how trade strategies are built. tradearchitect. only from td ameritrade. welcome to better trade commission free for 60 days when you open an account. it's good. honey, i love you... oh my gosh, oh my gosh.. look at these big pieces of potato. ♪ what's that? big piece of potato. 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