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ports. the final report will be sealed, but one thing probation folks ask convicts is about their employment. okay. okay, mr. trump. it says here you got fired from your last job for being terrible at it. and for -- [ applause ] is this correct here? and for trying to kill a mr. mike pence? oh, i see down here you are actually currently applying for a new job which is the same job. okay. have you thought about learning to code? >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, june 11th. good to have you all with us this morning. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. and sam stein will be joining us in just a moment. so we have a lot to talk about this morning. we thought we'd take a stepback and take a look big picture, starting out with a column in "the washington post" by eugene robinson, which asks the question, is donald trump okay? gene focuses on what we heard from trump in his las vegas campaign rally on sunday, writing in part, "we in the media have failed by becoming inured to trump's verbal incontinence, not just the rapid-fire lies and revenge-seeking threats, but also the frightening glimpse into a mind that is unwell. the white house press core would be in wolf pack mode if biden were in the middle of a speech and suddenly veered into gibberish about boats and sharks. there would be front page stories questioning whether the president at 81 was suffering from dementia. and the op-ed pages would be filled with thumb-suckers about whether the cabinet should invoke the 25th amendment. house republicans would already schedule hearings on biden's mental condition and demand he take a cognitive test. trump at 77, it's to say he is just being trump, but he's like this all the time. as a reminder, just some of trump's rally in las vegas on sunday. >> i went to a boat company in south carolina. the boat, i said, how is it? he said, it's a problem, sir. they want us to make all electric boats. i said, let me ask you a question. he said, nobody ever asked this question. it must be because of m.i.t., my relationship to m.i.t., very smart. he goes -- i say, "what would happen if the boat sank from its weight, and you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery and the battery is now underwater and there is a shark approximately 10 yards over there?" by the way, a lot of shark attacks lately, notice that? i watched some guys justifying it today. well, they weren't really that angry. they bit off the young lady's leg because of the fact that they were not hungry but misunderstood who she was. these people are crazy. he said, "there's no problem with sharks. just didn't understand a young woman swimming." a lot of shark attacks. i said, "so there is a shark 10 yards away from the boat, 10 yards. do i get electrocuted if the water goes over the battery and the boat is sinking? do i get electrocuted or jump overboard to the shark?" he said, "you know, nobody ever asked me that question." i said, "i think there's a good question. there's a lot of electric current coming through the water." you know what i'd do if there was a shark or you get electrocuted? i'll take electrocuted every time. i'm not getting near the shark. we'll end that, end it for boats. >> one of the tells on just how crazy he was was looking at the people that had driven hours to be there, put on their trump hats, and through the whole time, they're going like this, looking at each other in the background, going, what's exactly going on here? turning around and whispering. what's he talking about? well, willie, he's talking about what he always talks about. you know, we have trump. he's been doing this. this is why the biden campaign -- and john lemire has been reporting on this -- this is why the biden campaign has been desperate to get donald trump out of a courtroom where he has to be quiet and on the campaign trail where they can hear him. trump spews an hour of bizarre comments, and he's been doing it for years. sharks, hannibal lecter, what a great guy he is, about executing the chairman of the joint chiefs of not. >> not paying the teleprompter company. >> not paying the teleprompter company, mosquitos, world war ii, the gathering storm of world war ii that's coming, president obama still being president of the united states, which he continues to do eight years after president obama went home. and i do think gene makes a great point. if joe biden had given one of those speeches, it'd be on the front page of "the new york times," "the wall street journal." >> definitely "the wall street journal." >> "the washington post." and everybody would be doing exactly what they were saying. but for biden, biden goes to d-day. we're going to talk about this in a little bit. "the washington post" just posted a story this morning. he does a fantastic job. they actually use cheap fakes. >> yeah. >> they're trying to make it look like, oh, he's trying to sit down. oh, my god, there's a chair not there. everybody on the stage was because lloyd austin wasn't done with his speech yet. there are three, four different things where the republican party is lying. they have to make that up which is a lot like "the wall street journal" story where they knew they were lying to their readers. they knew that kevin mccarthy, what he was telling "the wall street journal" was a lie. they knew because kevin mccarthy said before what a great negotiator biden had been at the very meeting where they tried to get mccarthy to say, well, he was out of it. it is a big tell they talked to senators and nancy pelosi and others who said, no, no, let me explain to to you what happened in the meeting. they went into detail about how biden was pulling people together. i remember in the same meeting, it was biden and everybody else trying to move mike johnson along. we reported on it at the time. "the wall street journal" runs a front page story, a lead story that they know is a lie. with biden, the republican party has to make shit up. i'm sorry, i can't think of a better way to say that. trying to make biden look old and demented. trump does it every day on the campaign trail, and people just laugh. yeah, he's crazy. look at that. can you believe he is so stupid, he talks about this? he melts down when his teleprompter goes down. that's funny. that's the political world we're living in in 2024. >> it is. that moment, that's sort of one example in a larger point we could talk about, the lies. he does it enough and for so long and so consistently, that people sort of get numb to it. there he goes again. we say all the time on this show, for example, when "the wall street journal" piece came out, you could take any one rally, and this is maybe the best example of it, as you say, joe, 102 degrees, people are standing in the heat. he said, by the way, we'll get to this quote, "i don't care about you," literally talking to his supporters, voters, "i just want your vote." yeah, it's hot out here, but i'm suffering. i don't care about you. more on that in a moment. but he goes on this story about batteries and sharks, and he makes that tie, because of my tie to m.i.t. >> oh, my god. >> his uncle worked at m.i.t. in the 1940s. >> oh, my god. >> he just can't -- he feels -- there is something about m.i.t. he knows it is prestigious, knows it sounds smart, it was his uncle 80 years ago. >> what a loon. what a loon. >> he is a loon. >> that was just the latest and perhaps one of the most extreme examples of something that happens. again, we say it all the time here. you can watch or not. maybe you don't want to watch his rallies or not, but it happens every time he steps on a stage. so if you really think that joe biden is the one losing it, pour yourself a drink, sit back, and watch that performance in las vegas over the weekend, nevada over the weekend. that's it. that's the argument right there. >> so what, sam stein, what republicans don't understand, and i keep trying to explain this to them but i think i'm going to give up. when they lie about joe biden's mental acuity, when they lie and make things up, all they are doing is lowering expectations, lowering expectations, lowering expectations for the biggest campaign event coming, and that is the debate. they do this time and time again. they say, oh, joe biden is out of it. joe biden is whatever. he goes to the state of the union. he kicks them in the teeth. then everybody is like, oh, my god, where did that come from? then they say, oh, he's on co-tan. he had to be on cocaine. he was so good. he was jacked up. no, he was just joe biden. i've said this before. i've said this before and will say it again. i've talked to the guy for hours at a time. the guy is all there. you know, years ago, i talked to donald trump hours at a time. not all there. so here we are -- >> a little bit more all there. >> he is much worse now. >> yeah. >> they're pushing down expectations for joe biden by lying about him. >> mm-hmm. >> all they're doing in the end is helping him because the whole country is going to be looking at those debates. biden, once again, is going to exceed expectations because of their false narrative. >> yeah, this happened in 2020, too. people might forget it, but there was this narrative going around that he had an ear piece that was feeding him the questions and the answers. it actually took off so much on right-wing media that he and his campaign had to put out a tweet, joking about it with the ear piece and a pint of ice cream as his debate prep routine. i will say, it does diminish the expectations. it helps him ultimately clear a very low hurdle. from a strategic standpoint, it does benefit biden. also, trump is giving away one of the debate questions that will come up, which is, how would you rather die, electrocution via an electrical boat or vicious shark attack? now, joe biden has one of those questions, too. in two ways, they benefitted biden. then, let me just say on the larger scale, like, look, i think two things can be objectively true here, right? one is joe biden is, you know, . he is different than he was four years ago, eight years ago. we all are. that's just how it goes. the other thing that is objectively true is what you said, that if joe biden went on stage and talked about a shark attack or being electrocuted in a boat, i think it would have been the dominant media story for a week. >> a week. >> it would have spawned a whole round of democratic agitation and freakout. it would have spawned a slew of editorials wondering if he should drop out. i think there are different standards here. i think part of it is exactly what willie says, which is, we've come sort of callused and numb to the trump routine. that shades how we view trump. >> and that is if you look into the history of authoritarianism, it's a component of that. desensitizing a population, a population becoming inured. jonathan lemire, i said it yesterday and will say it today. if anybody made a speech like that, anybody, i wouldn't even need to say, "some on the left feel this person is un" -- that is unfit behavior. that person is unfit for the highest office in the land. unfit to be on this show even. unfit to do any job. he sounded crazy. >> yeah. >> because he was, okay? >> what corporation would hire that guy? >> nobody. >> what corporation would hire that guy in leadership? none. >> my question is, and i'll leave it hanging and toss to you, lemire, "the wall street journal" did a front page piece quoting republicans and some democrats about joe biden losing it. >> they didn't quote any democrats, for the record. >> where is the deep dive in "the new york times," "the washington post," or "the wall street journal" front page? where's the deep dive into this crazy man who is giving so much material that backs up to the fact that he is unfit, that it is almost hard to keep up with? where is the good, solid journalism on this? >> certainly, there's been exhaustive reporting about donald trump's record and what he plans to do in 2025. i do think what we've seen, a couple publications in recent weeks, a little more about raising the idea of trump's mental capacity on this job. certainly on this show, we talk about it all the time. sam couldn't be more right, it's more of an issue for president biden. that is, most democrats believe, deeply unfair. biden only a couple years older than trump. poll by poll, shaped by what republicans have done, by media coverage, it looms much larger for biden than trump. i'll give an example of a bad-faith effort. i was pooler last night for the juneteenth concert on the lawn. it lasted about two hours, and biden was there. republicans and allies took clips and tweeted them out, of the president standing slower, not clapping in tune. i had my eyes on him the whole time. he was fine. >> after being in france. >> yeah, trying to paint a picture of him being unfit for the job. meanwhile, the democrats and the bidn campaign ramped up their own attacks on donald trump, trying to create a contrast. that was the implicit subtext of the france trip, mia. mika. president biden on the world stage, reaffirming commitments to allies, vowing to stand with ukraine, standing up for democracy. contrasting that with donald trump who is doing none of those things. and donald trump seemingly expressing very little interest in the health, safe the, and well-being of his own rally attendees. as willie mentioned, the biden campaign pounced on the moment from las vegas over the weekend and put out this ad. >> i don't want anybody going on me. i don't care about you. i just want your vote. i don't care. >> i'm joe biden, and i approve this message. >> short and sweet. "i don't care." >> there you go. >> we have heard that from the biden team before. they're making this in a joking fashion, but that's sort of been one of their central arguments in the wake of the criminal conviction, joe and mika. this is the latest example of how trump put himself before everything else, and that's what he'll do when he is back in office, too. and unfit. moving on to the other top stories of the morning now. secretary of state antony blinken is in israel this morning where he met earlier today with retired israel general benny gantz who resigned from the country's war cabinet on sunday. a readout of their meeting said gantz emphasized the importance of exerting maximum pressure on mediators in order to get hamas to agree to a hostage release deal. and in jerusalem yesterday, blinken met with prime minister benjamin netanyahu. blinken says netanyahu reaffirmed his commitment to a cease-fire proposal. meanwhile, the united nations security council has adopted a u.s.-backed cease-fire plan for gaza. three other cease-fire resolutions have previously failed. this measure lays out a three-phase plan to secure the release of the remaining hostages in exchange for palestinian prisoners. in the second phase, the cease-fire would continue so long as israel and hamas negotiate a permanent end to the war. if the deal falls through, the white house has discussed potentially holding its own negotiations with hamas to secure the release of the five american hostages still in captivity. this comes as we learn more about the israeli military's daring rescue of four hostages over the weekend. helmet footage shows forces rescuing almog meir jan, andrei kozlov and shlomi ziv. the israeli military says the men were being held captive in the home of a hamas member. you can hear heavy fire as the operatives enter the apartment. in an effort to give the rescuers ample cover, the military says air force started striking dozens of nearby targets. that led to scores of civilians, including children, to be killed. >> hamas health officials say that at least 270 people died in the raid. israeli sources say less than 100. >> right. israeli forces also rescued a fourth hostage. 26-year-old noa argamani. she was held in a different building just 200 yards away. >> willie, there's so many cross currents going on right now in this war between israel and hamas terrorists. you have, of course, the hostage release, extraordinary hostage release. you have benny gantz resigning from the cabinet. you have the united nations backing the u.s. peace proposal. just, again, a lot going on in israel's northern border. i mean, this is so much going on, so many crosscurrents. you wonder if at this point, it's sort of the climax of it. maybe we move to that u.s. authored cease-fire. >> yeah, there are some sticking points, obviously, for the israelis in there and hamas, obviously, cannot be trusted as a terrorist organization in the negotiation. but we will see. you know, it got the votes unanimously, except for russia abstained in the united nations security council. we'll see. the hostage rescue, when you look at the video there, the fact the four hostages were alive, that the special services of the idf were able to pull that off, extraordinary. obviously, the civilian death that came with it makes things worse, makes things more complicated, but hamas also could have avoided this by not taking hostages and not hiding behind them inside of gaza. let's bring in the columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. david, let's get to joe's point about everything that's going on right now in this critical moment and your assessment of that peace plan from the white house, the peace plan from the u.n., how viable is it? is there enough in there that, somehow, someway, these two sides could come to the table? >> willie, the first thing to say is the white house is really putting on a full-court press on this. it took this peace plan first to the g7. other major industrial nations got support for it. now, they've taken it to the u.n. security council, gotten it passed with russia abstaining. they now have the world's leading powers behind this proposal. they now want to, in effect, impose it on both hamas, which has been resistant, and israel, which sometimes is a little bit hard to read about exactly what it agrees to and what it doesn't. right now, the main focus is on hamas. secretary blinken in israel made that point very strongly. it's up to hamas to come to the table and do this deal. you ask, what is the difference about? really, i think it's about language in the three-part agreement that, in the minds of israel and hamas, determines who can say they won the conflict. hamas is demanding a written statement from israel that there be a permanent end to hostilities. israel says, we don't want to sign a permanent statement. instead, we want negotiations about the transition to the permanent cease-fire, where we get to work out all the details of how the future of gaza will go. israel does not want to accept future governments of gaza. that's been made clear from the beginning of the war. i think what we're going to see is continued, intense pressure. the problem is, what is the u.s. plan b if this pressure doesn't budge hamas? there's no sign that i see that they're really ready to give up that demand for the permanent cease-fire, and there is not an obvious answer right now for the administration, except keep banging, keep pushing, keep pointing to all the international insistence that this happened. >> well, you look at the end. the third phase of the peace process is the movement to a non-hamas governed, palestinian authority running gaza. obviously a big win for israel if, in fact, that is where we end up. david, it's interesting. we saw pictures of the secretary of state, america's secretary of state shaking hands with benny gantz, then benjamin netanyahu. interesting, again, shaking hands with benny gantz right after he resigned from netanyahu's cabinet, a man who many consider to be a possible successor to netanyahu. we've seen support. we've seen signs that israelis still are backing president biden and still see president biden as a friend. i'm curious, what's the power of secretary of state blinken shaking hands with benny gantz a day or so after he resigns from the cabinet, and what kind of impact do you think that has domestically inside of israel? >> well, joe, the first thing to say is that the polls still suggest that gantz is significantly more popular than netanyahu. to have the american secretary of state, a symbol of israel's most important alliance there shaking hands with somebody who could be prime minister gives that person a kind of validation. we're going to enter a very strange period now. the war cabinet that's been steering the war for eight months has been effectively dissolved. the remaining people who matter are netanyahu himself and the minister of defense, gallant, who is from netanyahu's party but has ambitions of his own. is gantz going to try to conduct a strident campaign against netanyahu even while the war is going on? that would be difficult. that might cost him some of his support. i mentioned one other thing i hear from every israeli i talk to now, and that is, don't forget about lebanon. the situation on our northern border is getting worse by the day. the number and intensity of hezbollah rocket fire on the northern towns is insupportable. israelis say they have to get their families who fled the north after october 7 in fear of an attack back there by the start of school in september. i think if that doesn't happen, we could see major conflict in the north later during the summer. >> all right. senior european union party officials met yesterday to discuss what the next five years of parliament may look like as far-right parties appear to have made major gains in this election. so while the current center-right party is expected to hold on to a majority, the far-right gains mean it could influence eu policies on immigration, climate change, security, and more. party presidents are expected to hold their first formal talks today while european leaders will hold a summit next week. joe, important to point out that you've been making the point for years that if europe continued practicing its pretty extreme approach toward open boarders, there wouldn't be a place for the middle to go, other than to the far right. here's what you had to say the last time nationalists gained ground in europe. this is back in 2019. take a listen. >> it echoes what i've been saying about european leaders for five years, where they are so absolutist on open borders. they are so absolutist about letting mass flow of immigrants into their country. if you don't do that, then you're a neo-nazi. there's never been a middle ground in europe over the past five years. which has naturally led to the sort of right-wing nationalist governments growing in europe. >> that certainly wasn't the first time. it'd been about five years that we've heard that. >> yeah. >> here we are. >> it's exactly what happened. this was so foreseeable. it was so foreseeable. you know, what happened was, we had the syrian civil war. then one of the greatest migration crises since world war ii. post world war ii. there was an absolutist view in the eu. you had countries like sweden taking 40,000 syrians overnight. germany, you could go through the list. anybody, anybody that suggested that having an absolutist view in the eu, where somebody could come in one country and go across the entire continent of europe, anybody that suggested that that might not be wise was branded a right-wing extremist, was branded a neo-nazi. my warning starting in, i believe, about 2014 was, if you don't make space in the middle for a reasonable compromise on immigration in europe, and i said, because europe is not america. france is not america. germany is not america. sweden is not america. we are built, as ronald reagan said, on immigrants. we have been called the melting pot of the world for a reason. nobody has ever said of that france. nobody ever said that of germany. nobody ever said that of sweden. they were not built on immigration like the united states. and this absolutist view, i warned for a decade, would lead to far-right parties becoming more powerful in europe. because nobody in politics was allowed to go to the middle ground without being called a neo-nazi. david ignatius, the outcome of that is that we now have far-right extreme parties because mainstream parties have not practiced reasonable immigration control. the question is, have they learned? will they learn? will we continue seeing the rise of right-wing parties in germany and france especially? >> joe, my guess would be that you'll see a process in europe similar to what you're seeing in the united states. one of the things that i think really is significant in this election season that's gotten relatively little notice is that joe biden basically endorsed the idea that it's okay to have a border. it is okay to enforce your border. citizens who want border enforcement aren't wrong. you can't just have undocumented people streaming across without adequate controls. so he is -- because he couldn't pass legislation, because the republicans refused, he's had to impose it by executive order. i think something like that is going to happen in europe, as well. people say it's okay to have a border, you just have to have justice. you have to have adequate rules to accept people who really need asylum. make sure those are as fair and well adjudicated as possible. i think your basic point, that people lost sight of something that's fundamental to your sense of a country has definition, has boarders, people who believe that were made to feel like they were wrong, and that had some backlash. >> willie, not just wrong, extremists, neo-nazis. we heard it all the time. if you were against 40,000 syrians overnight going into sweden, you were a neo-nazi, a fascist, belonged in hitler's party. this serves as a warning. it serves as a warning to democrats in the united states. david is exactly right. joe biden is taking a tougher stance on the border. also, you can go back to brexit. why did brexit happen? it wasn't about complex economic issues. i talked to one friend in britain after another and a lot who voted labor their entire life. we spent the last decade debating margaret thatcher. me, of course, pro-thatcher, and others saying she was the worst prime minister in history. when i asked, how you voting in brexit, they were going, we're for brexit, they'd always talk about immigration. that's why we got brexit. that's why we have extremists now winning eu elections in europe. that's why right now immigration is the top issue in america. >> yeah, could be decisive in our own presidential election here at home. also when you talk about the g7 coming up in a couple days from now in italy, the prime minister there, maloney, she came in on that issue, as well, on immigration. her party, you know, back two, three, four years ago was getting single digits. now in the eu elections, many more. she's in a position of leadership, hosting the g7 this week in italy. >> making it very clear i agree with what you're saying, it is still incredible from poland did the start of the ukrainian war. 4 million ukrainians crossing the border in three months. >> incredible what the pols are doing. >> that'll go down in history as a major moment. "the washington post"'s david ignatius, thank you very much . still ahead on "morning joe," what we're learning about donald trump's probation interview yesterday ahead of his hush money sentencing in his criminal trial next month. plus, joyce vance joins us with some of the lessons special counsel jack smith could take away from trump's manhattan conviction. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. because there are people out there who aren't you. a lot of them. and you don't drive like... whoa. i don't want my child being raised by a robot! other drivers are not you. yes, thank you so much to all 50 of my subscribers. nope, definitely not you. save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you're in good hands with allstate. (music) have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms, like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could be something more serious called attr-cm, a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist, and ask about attr-cm. today, a new york city probation officer asked trump a series of questions ahead of the sentencing. trump agreed to join us right now to answer some of the questions on the record. let's speak to him right now. mr. trump, thank you for talking to us. you've been criminally convicted. where do experts think you should serve your sentence? >> prisons, insane asylums, mental institutions. >> okay, all right. now, okay, you own several homes. if you get house arrest, which house would you like to stay in? >> waffle house. [ laughter ] >> got it. you're also facing a prison sentence. do you know anyone that has gone to prison? >> all my friends. >> okay. all of them, okay. in prison, you might sleep in a bunk bed. what would the climb up to the top bunk be like for you? >> mt. everest. >> oh, interesting. of course, trade cigarettes, candy, or cash. what would you trade in prison? >> don jr. >> okay, all right. >> and eric. >> all right. throw in eric, too. i understand. look, a lot of inmates also spend time exercising. what would it be like for you to do weightlifting in the yard? >> ah! ah! >> okay, all right. take it easy. take it easy. just so we have it, what size handcuffs do you wear? >> tiny little, tiny. >> last question, what do you think you'll be doing after one night behind bars? >> thumb in mouth, saying, "mommy, take me home, mommy." >> thank you. thank you for your time. thank you very much. >> that was some interview. jimmy fallon upstairs last night on "the tonight show." yes, former trump completed his interview with a probation officer yesterday. a source familiar with the matter says the interview was short, lasting less than 30 minutes. described as, quote, uneventful. it was conducted by private video conference with trump's lead attorney, todd blanche, by his side. the interview part of a mandatory process ahead of the july 11th sentencing following trump's conviction last month on 34 felony counts in his hush money trial. the officer will deliver a report to judge merchan who will use it when determining trump's sentence next month. joining us now, two members of the sisters-in-law podcast, former attorneys joyce vance and barbara mcquade. barb is author of "attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america." more on that in a moment. ladies, good morning. great to have you both with us. joyce, take us inside one of those hearings, less than 30 minutes yesterday. we're hearing about the interview with the probation officer. what kind of questions would the officer be asking former president trump? >> right. so the goal here is for the probation officer to conduct at a presentence investigation that lets them write a report that the judge can use to arrive at the appropriate sentence. so i think we can all readily understand the kind of questions that are relevant. background, social background, financial background, mental health, physical health, all of the sorts of information lines that the judge needs to decide what's the most appropriate sentence under the law for this defendant? you know, what's so unusual here is that donald trump had his lawyer sitting next to him. i know we focused heavily on the fact that it wasn't in-person, but new york does provide for that with someone who is out of state. or whether there might be exigent circumstances. here, i think they avoided focusing unfairly on other defendants who were in the probation office that day by doing this remotely. but this notion that donald trump gets to have a lawyer sitting next to him, making sure that his answers don't subject him to any sort of inappropriate write-up in the report is a little bit startling, willie. this is supposed to be a candid conversation between a convicted defendant and a probation officer. >> quickly following up, joyce, then i want to get to your piece, but how does the judge use these answers in terms of deciding what the sentence is? >> so when judges sentence, they use something called the principle of parsimony, which says you shouldn't impose a sentence that is any longer than what's necessary to achieve the principles of the criminal justice system. you want to think about rehabilitation. you want to think about deterrence. you want to think about appropriate punishment. the judge will use all of this to arrive at his discretion at a sentence that's within the bounds dictated by law. it's really much more art than it is science, mika. >> all right. you've got a new piece in the center for justice entitled "lessons from trump's manhattan conviction for special counsel jack smith." you write in part, quote, "one of the most dangerous tactics trump has used to convince the public that our norms and expectations about democratic processes like the criminal justice system no longer apply. we spend more time contemplating how trump might derail the system than we do assessing how it should work and what we are entitled to expect from it. that's perhaps the most important lesson jack smith can learn from the manhattan district attorney's successful prosecution. bragg treated his case like any other, ushering it from indictment through pretrial motions and onto a trial where it would be up to a jury to decide on the defendant's guilt. justice doesn't require a guilty verdict, but it does require a fair process that allows the prosecution to proceed against defendant trump just like it would against any other defendant." joyce, where has jack smith gone, afoul in this? what is it he can glean moving forward? >> right. in this piece, i try to emphasize that jack smith, who has been dealt in some ways a bad hand with some of the decisions that we've seen judge cannon make, the delay in the supreme court, i think has performed really admirably. the problem that we face as a society is that there's this real malaise, this sense that donald trump and donald trump alone isn't subject to the dictates of the criminal justice system. so this is an institutionalist point. i know it's become a little bit of a dirty word, institutionalist, but i believe we need strong courts and it goes without saying that no defendant is above the law. somehow, donald trump has perpetuated this myth that he alone is above the law. that's an important point for jack smith to take on, not in pub public, not in press conferences, but in the way he and his team conduct themselves in court and in their pleading. >> barbara, one of the tactics here, as outlined, is disinformation and misinformation. a topic of your recent book. talk to us about how pernicious and worrisome it is when it comes to these legal cases, particularly those against former president trump. >> yeah, i think one of the things, as joyce said, is this effort to undermine respect for the rule of law. people choosing their political tribe over the truth or over the law. what that has a tendency to do is cause a loss of respect for the rule of law. if people believe that the law is simply one more partisan political tool, it loses all of its value. some of the calls we've seen recently to go after donald trump's rivals, to go after democrats suggests that this is just a political tool. it is not about fairness and accountability. ultimately, that leads ordinary people to feel that they don't need to obey the law or even vigilante violence to achieve the result they can't get through the political process. >> barbara, just to follow up on that, i mean, we're already seeing house republicans say they want to bring alvin bragg in to testify -- >> yeah. >> -- about his trial of trump. we've seen efforts unde way to defend what jack smith is doing. of course, there's been nonstop talk from trump people retribution. turning law fair against democrats and going after them for what they perceive to be their targeting of trump and his allies in this time period. can you just talk about the long term? i mean, you were speaking about it there, but among those, what is the one that seems most pernicious, most prop matt prob the system of justice? do you see this getting worse? how does one make it better? what is the remedy here? >> yeah, this idea of, you know, that law enforcement has been weaponized simply to go after donald trump i think is incredibly dangerous. investigating the investigators. i worry that it has a chilling effect on law enforcement officials who are not going to want to touch donald trump. i think we've already seen it when we have heard the reports the fbi was reluctant to go in and search at mar-a-lago. i suppose that response is understandable in light of what happened to them after they investigated donald trump in 2016 for connections with russia in relation to the election. not only might we see law enforcement short-arming investigations, but i worry what it says about the public. we've also seen donald trump try to normalize corruption with pardons for people who have engaged in public corruption and crimes, giving pardons to his own cronies and people like members of congress and former mayors convicted of crimes for extortion and bribery and fraud. all of that normalizes corruption in politics and make people become very cynical that this is just how the game is played. that truth and integrity is for suckers. what matters more is just getting what you can when you can. that really, i think, makes the entire system fall apart. >> my gosh, that's what makes the attack from within, your book, so, so important for people to read and understand. mika, you know, at the end of last hour, john lemire was talking to dave weigel, who talked about how you looked at polls before the prosecution, before donald trump was found guilty of 34 felony counts, and the polls said it would have an impact on the election. then, as dave weigel said, the entire republican party now has been weaponized to attack the rule of law, to attack the judicial system, to attack jury members, as marco rubio attacked the jury. to say that the rule of law in america is no better than castro's cuba. that's what they're doing and going to continue to do. they want to tear down confidence in america's judicial system, just like they wanted to tear down america's confidence in our electoral system because donald trump lost. they're willing to sacrifice america and the institutions that separate us from the rest of the world all because donald trump has run afoul on them. >> except when it comes to hunter. except when it comes to hunter biden's trial. all of a sudden, hunter deserves this and that. let's watch this and that. let's talk about hunter, hunter, hunter. not mentioning that a current president of the united states has so much respect for the law, that he has said he would not pardon his son. i mean, what -- >> yeah. >> again, it's all about the contrast, but some republicans -- >> all republicans. i've been saying republicans -- >> they're complicit. >> yeah. >> republicans and also networks that amplify this and don't cover it fairly. again, it's just like the way we started this show. trump is literally crazy on stage, and i say it not in a good way. not well. not fit. not mentally capable of holding together a sentence when his prompter goes down. yet, biden is constantly covered for being old, but, yet, travels onto the world stage doing speeches, dinners, important ceremonies, recognizing people who suffered and survived d-day. >> right. >> spending time with them, connecting with them. you see it all on video. except if you go to these places or talk to those republicans, you see the one time where he couldn't find his chair. >> it's disinformation. it's doctored. >> this is where we are right now. >> it's lies versus the truth. it really is. let republicans keep lying about joe biden. it's only going to help him in the end. it is only going to lower expectations so much that he is going to come out and do what he does at every state of the union address. he'll outperform because of the lies told about him. barbara mcquade and joyce vance, thank you so much. >> "sisters-in-law" podcast. >> so good. >> barbara is so excited, again, your book is more relevant today than ever. >> perfect. coming up, the biden campaign is trying to take advantage of a new swing among the nation's oldest voters in favor of the nation's oldest president. nbc's mike memoli will join us with his exclusive reporting. plus, the popularity of streaming services might soon make the summer movie blockbuster a thing of the past. steve rattner will join us with charts on the changing media landscape. we love the chacharts. >> i'm telling you. >> kids are so excited. >> moms and dads are going and nudging the kids. >> wake up. >> it's like christmas morning. >> wake up. >> rattner's charts. rattner's charts, they're on downstairs. >> that's next on "morning joe." if advanced lung cancer has you searching for possibilities, discover a different first treatment. immunotherapies work with your immune system to attack cancer. but opdivo plus yervoy is the first combination of 2 immunotherapies for adults newly diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer that has spread, tests positive for pd-l1, and does not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene. opdivo plus yervoy is not chemotherapy, it works differently. it helps your immune system fight cancer in 2 different ways. opdivo and yervoy can cause your immune system to harm healthy parts of your body during and after treatment. these problems can be severe and lead to death. see 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project management because this is how we work now. dad is a legend. and his legendary moves might be passed down to you. ancestrydna can show you which traits were inherited, where they came from, and who he shares them with. but get movin', this sale is only for a limited time. national airport in washington, d.c. at 53 past the hour. apple the making its a.i. debut with the launch of apple intelligence. the tech giant announced several new a.i. features for iphones and a partnership with openai at its worldwide developers conference yesterday afternoon. the company says apple intelligence will prioritize messaging and notifications along with major upgrades to apple's virtual assistant siri. oh, siri needs some serious upgrades, fyi. anyhow, the main shipping channel to the port of baltimore reopened after the francis scott key bridge collapsed and killed six workers there. a month-long cleanup effort concluded yesterday after federal and state authorities restored the channel to the original 700-foot width and 50-foot depth. although temporary shipping channels were opened while crews worked on removing bridge debris, disruptions from the march 26th collapse have caused the baltimore economy an estimated $1.2 billion. and reverend james lawson, the principal architect behind the iconic non-violent protests of the civil rights movement has died. as a young missionary, lawson traveled to india and studied the principles of the civil disobedience used by gandhi against british rule. after returning to the u.s., lawson met the reverend martin luther king jr. in 1957 and led protests at vanderbilt university in nashville. the school eventually expelled him after his sit-ins gained national attention. lawson was one of the first freedom riders arrested in jackson, mississippi. he was also among the protesters beaten on bloody sunday on the edmund pettus bridge in selma, alabama. lawson died of cardiac arrest on the way to a hospital on sunday. he is survived by his wife, dorothy wood, and two sons. he was 95 years old. what an impactful life. still ahead, we have exclusive reporting about the biden campaign and its push to court older voters. nbc's mike memoli is standing by with the latest on that. also ahead, oscar-nominated actress minnie driver will join us live in studio to talk about season two of "the serpent queen." 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glow sticks, writing all over, crazy. >> worst than burning man. he puts the band over his face so you can't recognize him for "way too early." >> i don't know where he gets it, but he has the macromace top. >> ask, willie, john for that. >> tattoos underneath. so interesting. >> burning man, yeah. >> you have this completely set. >> willie, am i dating myself? >> i love it. >> holiday parties are always, always has it all. macrame. >> there was the torrential rain to get out, so challenging, hiking for days. i have to come up with a new ensemble for this coming year. >> definitely. >> we have confidence. >> thank you. still with us, he's here. joining the conversation, we have nbc news and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator, former prosecutor claire mccaskill. great to have you, claire. >> she does not go to burning man, nor does macrame. >> no, no. also, just pointing out, she has an amazing podcast, as well. >> it is amazing. >> podcast of the stars today. co-hosts the podcast "how to win 2024" with jen palmieri. we love it. >> yeah. let's go straight to the top story this hour. pennsylvania's democratic governor josh shapiro is pushing back against donald trump's constant claim that america is, quote, a failing nation. in an interview on msnbc last night, shapiro, a biden campaign surrogate, had this blunt response to the former president's attack. >> i got a message to donald trump and all his negativity and whining. stop [ bleep ] talking america. this is the greatest country on earth, and it is time that we all start acting like it. the good people of pennsylvania understand that this is a great country, understand that we have a whole lot going for us. now, it's time for us to continue this path of progress that joe biden has laid out and not go back to a negative time. not listen to the whining of the former president. >> i mean, i just -- >> well put. >> something, claire mccaskill, i talk about all the time. democrats have such a great opening here. donald trump and his acolytes are always trashing the u.s. military. they're always trashing the u.s. economy. they're always trashing our country, the institutions of our country. our economy is stronger than it has been in a very long time relative to the rest of the world, probably in over a generation. we are the envy of the world. every other country would do anything to have our economy right now. $26 trillion every year in gdp compared to china's 18 or $19 trillion, russia's 1.4, $1.5 trillion. you look at the fact that the dollar is stronger now than any time since the mid 1980s. in fact, the problem is the dollar is so strong, people fear that it may be hurting trade because we are so powerful as an economy. the dow hitting 40,000. you could go down the list. same thing with the military. donald trump is always trashing the military. you have people like tuberville, republican senators constantly saying our military is weak and woke. biggest lie. yet another lie, they're trashing our economy, which is stronger relative to the rest of the world by all measurements since anytime since world war ii when europe was in ashes. there's no comparison. you have to go back to the end of world war ii to find a time when our military was stronger relative to the rest of the world than it is today. yet, donald trump is campaigning, attacking our military, saying he would execute the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and saying he would fire all generals if they weren't political loyalists. >> yeah. you know, this campaign has to be a campaign of contrasts. maybe the biggest contrast is the way these two men present th themselves as leaders. let's not kid ourselves. you know the people traveling all over the country, driving hours to watch donald trump perform, there are so many -- he even referenced one of them at his bake fest over the weekend, his shark speech -- that go to multiple of these rallies. they come for one thing. they want to see him give the finger to america. the middle finger. they want to see him attack anything that is an institution in this country. our military, our elected officials, our rule of law, our judges, our law enforcement personnel, you know, anything, the constitution. >> mm-hmm. >> it's all about grievance. it's all about negativity. it's all about attacking america and how we stink and how america sucks. isn't it great the way he says it? doesn't it make you feel that somebody sees your anger? then contrast that with joe biden. talk about contrast, i mean, there's him giving the weird shark speeches, and there is joe biden at a sacred place talking about how america stands up to tyranny, how america will always fight for freedom, how america is so proud of those who gave their lives for a greater cause than even our own country. that is democracy and freedom across the world. it is such a contrast. i actually believe the undecided voters, that is going to break true. it won't be a big margin, but it'll be enough to put normalcy and integrity back into the white house as opposed to that chaotic mess on the other side. >> jonathan, this always has been at the core of donald trump's argument, back to 2015 and 2016, and now again this time around, that the country lies in ruins and he alone can fix it. he can ride in and save the country. the problem with his argument right now is data, statistics, the way people look around and feel about the country. inflation is too high. we all see that. we all know that. if you look at that jobs number again on friday, unemployment at 50 year lows, all the economic data we talk about. by the way, as he talks about crime in the streets, a new fbi crime report came out just yesterday. murder decreased in the first quarter by 26%. rates down 25%. robbery down 18%. on and on and on. property crime down, as well. so the economy, stave for inflation, is good. crime is down. this is the opposite of what donald trump is saying on the stage. >> yeah, crime is down. another statistics that goes against what trump says night after night at the rallies, even the crossings at the southern border, they have really gone down, particularly in the last week or two since president biden put his new asylum ban into place. so what trump is saying simply doesn't match up with what reality is for most people. i think you hit on a key word, inflation. there's been a lot written in the last couple days in the wake of the eu elections, too. a lot of incumbents and their parties took hits. how big a role inflation is globally. the united states has a stronger economy than any in europe, inflation has remained consistently high. voters hate inflation, and they blame incumbents when they do. i think we're also -- this is another moment, though, despite that, that leads the biden camp to have an opportunity to draw those contrasts. we're seeing more and more them leaning in on this. it looks like donald trump doesn't even like america. why does he want to be here? why does he want to be the president of a country he doesn't even like? he doesn't believe in our military, doesn't believe in our economy, doesn't believe in our rights and values. again, at the juneteenth concert i covered last night on the white house lawn, president biden warned about old ghosts in new clothes. meaning those in the republican party now who are trying to take away hard-earned rights and freedoms, not just from black americans but from all. we hear the rhetoric from trump that just suggests more darkness ahead. >> jonathan lemire once again proving he just doesn't sleep ever. >> he doesn't. >> ever. >> working around the clock. >> between the reporting, the m a macrame. >> the celtics. attacks on the justice department must end. attorney general garland writes, we have seen attacks that do far beyond public scrutiny, criticism, and legitimate and necessary oversight of our work. these attacks come in the form of threats to defund department investigations. most recently, the special counsel's prosecution of the former president. they come in the form of dangerous falsehoods about the fbi's law enforcement operation. they come in the form of false claims that the department is politicizing its work to somehow influence the outcome of an election. the justice department makes decisions about criminal investigations based only on the facts and the law. we do not investigate people because of their last name, their political affiliation, the size of their bank account, where they come from, or what they look like. disagreements about politics are good for our democracy. they are normal. but using conspiracy theories, falsehoods, violence, and threats of violence to affect political outcomes is not normal. >> no, it is not normal. donald trump loved the fbi, claire mccaskill, when it was investigating hillary clinton in 2016. he'd go on the campaign trail and talk about the brave fbi men and women, suddenly, when he was the target of the investigation, the fbi was evil. >> witch hunt. >> he turned against the fbi, started berating them. in fact, turned about half the country against the fbi. made half the country hostile against premier law enforcement agency in america. >> yeah, and what is weird about this, andrew weissmann and i were talking about this the other day. for people who have worked closely with either the fbi or the military, the idea that these are some kind of bastion of liberal-leaning people is so ludicrous. >> what a joke. >> i mean, the fbi is about as far from liberal woke as you could go in america. the same goes for the military. it is just unbelievable. do they think that people who are self-selecting to go to the military are people who are crazy liberals that really want to go and learn how to fight a war? i mean, it is -- it is just beyond stupidity to accept what comes out of this guy's mouth about these particularly two institutions that are conservative from top to bottom. i mean, look at the generals who lead the military. do you think you got there by being liberal pansies? no. they got there because they were good leaders of military personnel, which, by and large, are people who appreciate discipline. by the way, the fbi is no different. the intelligence agencies are the same way. they are peppered with veterans. the majority of the people who work in the intelligence agencies are, in fact, of a military background. so it is not only dangerous, it is just dumb. >> those guys and those women all swear an oath to the united states. donald trump doesn't fully understand that. he's made it clear. meanwhile, this morning, the biden/harris campaign is launching a new outreach to connect with older voters. nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli is in wilmington, delaware, for us with new reporting on this. mike, very interesting here. a democrat hasn't won seniors since al gore almost 25 years ago, but the biden campaign is seeing some movement to its advantage among this group of voters. >> yeah, that's right, willie. every day we're talking about new polls. we tend to focus on where president biden's support, frankly, isn't where it needs to be among younger voters, minority voters in particular. you also see in poll after poll that the president is showing strength with the oldest voters, the seniors. as you put it, he would be the first democrat to win that demographic since al gore if the trend continues. that's why the biden campaign is trying to press that advantage. they're launching seniors for biden/harris. you'll see principals and surrogates fan out to the battleground states to focus on the set of issues that are particularly resonant with senior voters. they'll be doing pickleball tournaments, filling out postcards, phone banks. it is an interesting conversation. when you talk to the bidn campaign, pollsters, allies, why they're showing strength with senior voters. it explains why we're seeing softened support among other groups. media consumption. who is watching network news and reading newspapers? older voters. our own polls show it's those who are the most red and informed electorate. you also talk accomplishments. some of the proudest accomplishments for the president are things like his gun safety records, what he has been able to do on climate. for young voters, it is hard to quantify what that means in their everyday life. seniors, the fact they're now only paying $35 for insulin, the fact there now is a maximum of how much out of pocket cost there is for health care, especially when cost of living is important, it is more tangible and makes those accomplishments much more real. the last is, the biden campaign says democracy, the freedom argument that the president has been making is particularly resonating with older voters because of lived experience. we saw the president leaning into this traveling overseas, the echo of ronald reagan's pointe du hoc speech as he talked about how much democracy is at threat. he is talking to voters who lived through the cold war generation, who also saw the pre-roe versus wade environment. they don't want their grandchildren in a situation where they have fewer rights and freedoms than they do. >> you hear that anecdotally from seniors who say, i don't want to leave the country i grew up in, the country i know, to donald trump, to change it in a way that may be unrecognizable. mike, you are outside the courthouse in wilmington, delaware, covering the hunter biden federal criminal trial. jury deliberation began yesterday for about an hour after both the prosecution and defense rested its cases. deliberation begins again under two hours from now. what should we expect here? >> reporter: well, the question is just how much did that overwhelming, to use the word of the prosecutor, evidence that they were able to introduce over four days of testimony land with the jury? we saw the prosecutors in their closing argument talk about that evidence, the text messages, the videos, even hunter biden's own voice in the memoir. they say it showed he was a habitual drug user. it was ugly, personal, but necessary. abbe lowell, hunter biden's attorney, trying to make the accordion defense. he said the prosecutors were able to, over a very long period of time, stretch out the show. yes, hunter biden was battling substance abuse issues. but they needed to shrink it down to the window of time around when he purchased that gun. in hunter biden's mind, abbe lowell said that's all that was important. he was working to get clean. there was no specific evidence showing he was using drugs around that time. when the prosecutors had a chance to offer rebuttal once more, they said if our evidence doesn't show hunter biden was addicted, then no one is addicted. this has been, to put it mildly, a very difficult time for the entire biden family. i've been in and out of the courthouse during this and seeing, especially yesterday as closing arguments wrapped up, the emotional toll that this is taking on the family. we expect first lady dr. jill biden to be present yet again. president biden today is in washington. he's going to be speaking, of all issues, about gun safety, willie. >> all right. nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli, thank you so much for your reporting this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," the start of the summer movie season has opened with a near record low. steve rattner is standing by with charts on the disappointing box office numbers and what it means for streaming. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪ (vo) in two seconds, eric will realize they're gonna need more space... 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(vo) when life's doors open, we'll handle the house. norman, bad news... i never graduated from med school. what? -but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. i gotta get this deal... i know... faster wifi and savings? ...i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? hey, hey. welcome back to "morning joe." thanks, chopper 4. beautiful shot of new york city. new york in june, i mean, it's just the best. >> i love it. >> seriously, it's my favorite month. >> i like may, too. >> in new york. >> mm-hmm. >> yeah. >> so beautiful. willie, speaking of summer, my summers growing up seemed defined in part by going to movie theaters, watching "raiders of the lost ark." i still remember watching it with my family. "e.t.," i remember my dad ten minutes in going, "i think they got this one wrong," so everybody in the theater could hear it. "back to the future," of course, incredible. >> all movies i would never go to if you paid me. >> my dad also, when ken basinger showed up in robert redford's life after almost destroying it, "leave him alone!" >> your dad was the guy yelling at the screen, huh? >> embarrassing. >> my dad got into it. we were embarrassed at the time, but we loved going to the movies together as a family. i took my kids to summer blockbusters. >> that's where you get it. >> "armageddon," "gladiator" 47 times, though my kids were only 3 years old. you know, come on, baby, do it again. but it really did, it helped define our summers. it was wonderful going to the theaters and sharing that as a family. man, those days seem to be disappearing. >> yeah, i mean, if you look at the numbers, you can throw in "ghost busters," 40th anniversary a couple days ago. "forrest gump," all the huge summer movies. let's not forget as we get into this with steve rattner, it was less than 12 months ago, "barbie" and "oppenheimer," $2.5 billion at the box office. >> true that. >> this year, memorial day box office sales plummeted. "furiosa," the latest installation of the "mad max" series was a flop two weeks ago. it was number one but with $32 million in domestic ticket sales, the lowest grossing number one memorial day release since the 1990s. joining us now with charts on this trend, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. steve, good morning. how bad has it been out there over memorial day if you stave last year? >> it's been pretty bad, willie. by the way, my movie days goes back to goldfinger and the early bond movies. >> whoa. >> good stuff, baby. >> okay. >> i'm a little older than some other people on this set, so that's where i go to. >> a smidge. >> memorial day is fair to call a disaster here with 75 million ticket sales and inflation adjusted dollars. what you can see, look, covid played a role. we didn't have movies. we had a bounceback. this includes the barbenheimer phenomenon last year. it still came back down again. you compare to that where we were at its peak back in about 2013. inflation adjusted basis, $400 million in ticket sales. all the way up here, and then it just went like that. it's been going like that and showing not a lot of sign of life. why is that? one of the reasons why that is, of course, is that more and more movies are getting onto streaming and cable and other services sooner. this is what we call the window in television. how long the gap is from when a movie shows up in the movie theaters to when it shows up on paid television or some of these other services. you can see that that window has shrunk from 160 days all the way down to under 40 days, 35 days i think it was for this year. as a consequence, these are total yearly ticket sales. you can see they have fallen from $1.6 billion ticket sales down to about $800 million. there's been a real significant, almost 50% falloff in people going to the movie theaters. >> i should point out, "barbie" and "oppenheimer" last summer, late july. not reflected in the memorial day weekend numbers. the next chart, steve, people are staying home. they're streaming. is that fair? >> that is very fair, willie. they've changed their tv habits in a pretty remarkable way. if you start with a share of television viewing time, and this was one that i don't think most people would know. honestly, i wassurprised. the biggest source of television for people today is youtube. >> youtube. >> not even youtube tv, the paid version of youtube, but simply what is on youtube, gets almost 10% of the audience. after that, you go to comcast. this includes nbc, all of its cable channels, so forth. tied with netflix at 7.6%. a bunch of the other traditional broadcasters, paramount, which owns cbs, abc, and so forth, and the other streamers, which look like relatively small numbers until you see what it adds up to. what it adds up to is streaming going from 2.6% all the way up to 38% of total television viewing time. where is that coming from? it's coming from, first and foremost, from cable, the traditional cable channels, the usas, lifetimes, the hgs people watch, literally lost half of their audience in terms of share. traditional broadcasters have done a bit better. they've lost about a quarter of their audience per share. i would say, in this category, television, cable news has held up surprisingly better than the more general interest channels that people used to watch a lot more of. >> yeah. you know, cable news has held up in large part, and we talk about it all the time, in large part because of "way too early" with jonathan lemire. >> and the macrame. >> you have the super bowl and then lemire "way too early." >> any day of the week. >> like, "way too early," last week. >> yeah. >> willie, one of the things, and it surprised steve, surprised me, as well, but it is part of the media landscape that i think snuck up on us. we have all heard of youtube and youtube tv. youtube itself, not youtube tv, is such a driving force now in media. >> yeah. >> again, not a lot of stories about it. not a lot of discussion about it in media conversations. what steve just pointed out there surprised him, surprised me when i figured out how powerful this youtube is, man, it's such a powerful force in the media now. >> say, i don't know, a 14-year-old boy, that's all they're watching is youtube. they're sitting on their phone or taeb tablet, watching youtu shorts or videos. i have teenagers. if i landed my kids the clicker, they wouldn't know how to get to table. they'd go to streaming, youtube, and that's what they do, how they get their information. steve, this actually gets to your last chart, which is, screen time by age. you found something really interesting. it is not necessarily young people like i mentioned. it is older people spending a lot of time with tv anyway. >> yeah. there's is interesting things in terms of how people's tv habits have changed. first of all, the introduction of all these new services actually hasn't changed the amount of total time people spend in front of their screens by as much as you might guess. it's been -- it was 8 hours in 2013. that's an incredible number, obviously. it went up just 30 minutes to 8 hours and 35 minutes by 2023. what you had was a shift of -- a big mix. this is really basically things that came over cable, 5 hours. this reflects a lot of the cord cutting that's been going on. 105 million households with cable down to 65 million households with cable since 2010 when cable hit its peak. then you have this light blue which is, in effect, streaming. it's what we call tv-connected devices, if you're getting it oren your roku or apple tv or however you're getting it. that's obviously gone up significantly with streaming. computer time stayed about the same. people are spending a heck of a lot more time on their smartphones and tablets watching television, from an hour to roughly three hours. if you look at it by age, it's also kind of interesting. a little bit surprisingly to me, our younger friends who we worry about spending too much time with television actually are the lowest of the age cohorts, 6 hours and 30 minutes a day. they spend also the least amount of time on traditional television. the fewest cable subscribers. then they spend roughly an hour and 55 minutes on streaming types of things, similar to the next age group. computers have stayed pretty stable at about an hour of time across the age groups. then you get to the oldest demographic. sadly, i'm a part of this demographic. my fellow elderly, so to speak, are still spending 5 hours and 46 minutes, to be exact, on, in effect, cable or potentially over the air but really cable, watching the traditional media. then roughly, again, a little over an hour on streaming. they spend, actually, almost as much time on their tablets and phones as the younger people. so it does have a lot of implications. as people age up, it's unlikely this group is going to spend 5 hours and 46 minutes watching television on cable. >> nope. nope, they're not. "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, thank you for that. there were so many surprises there, as well as you get a sense of where the future is. >> right. we talked about youtube already. also, the fact that screen time, which we're always concerned about, screen time about the same as it was a decade ago. it's just different screens. >> exactly. >> from tv to, you know, tablets. >> thank you. >> to phones. up next, our guest is traveling across the country, raising awareness of the negative effects of anti-abortion laws. she joins us to talk about her deeply personal struggle to receive health care in louisiana. "morning joe" will be right back. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein! those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. 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(impressed) ay i like it! who wants to come see the future?! get your business online in minutes with godaddy airo if you have generalized myasthenia gravis, picture what life could look like with vyvgart hytrulo, a subcutaneous injection that takes about 30 to 90 seconds. for one thing, could it mean more time for you? vyvgart hytrulo can improve daily abilities and reduce muscle weakness with a treatment plan that's personalized to you. do not use vyvgart hytrulo if you have a serious allergy to any of its ingredients. it can cause serious allergic reactions like trouble breathing and decrease in blood pressure leading to fainting, and allergic reactions such as rashes, swelling under the skin, shortness of breath, and hives. the most common side effects are respiratory and urinary tract infections, headache, and injection site reactions. it may increase the risk of infusion-related reactions and infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or symptoms of an infection. talk to your neurologist about vyvgart hytrulo for gmg and picture your life in motion. 40 past the hour. donald trump says he stands side by side with the group that wants to, quote, eradicate abortion entirely. the presumptive republican presidential nominee addressed members of the danbury institute yesterday. the group's website refers to abortion as, quote, the greatest atrocity facing our generation today. they also call it child sacrifice. it also opposes so-called unbiblical ideologies that are attacking america's children, including lgbtq emphasis and trans efforts on the young youngest generation. trump praised the danbury institute for its work. >> i want to thank each and every one of you for your tremendous devotion to god and to country and your tremendous support of me. your work is to important. we can't afford to have anyone sit on the sidelines. now is the time for us all to pull together and stand up for our values and for our freedoms. i hope we'll be defending them side by side for your next four years. these are going to be your years because you're going to make a comeback like just about no other group. i know what's happening. i know where you're coming from and where you're going. i'll be with you side by side. >> anyone who still thinks he is not going to go further after what he's done to abortion, just look at that and meanwhile, our knows firsthand how carry a pregnancy emergency can be in a state with strict abortion laws, thanks to donald trump. kaitlin joshua, a lifelong resident of louisiana, was pregnant with her second child after the supreme court struck down roe v. wade. she miscarried after about 11 weeks, and the pain of that loss was multiplied by what she says was incomplete health care service. she says she visited multiple emergency rooms and was denied treatment because of the state's abortion ban. she was left to handle the painful miscarriage at home, despite severe blood loss. now nearly two years later, she's traveling across the country for the biden campaign to share her story and advocate for reproductive rights. she joins us now. first, i just am so sorry for what you had to go through. it was completely unnecessary. and your experience is a near perfect example as to why abortion is health care. we're seeing this over and over again, where women suffer, as you did, rather than get the health care they need. i'm curious, where are you traveling around the country to tell your story, and how is it being received? >> absolutely. thank you so much for having me this morning. amanda and i are traveling all over to the battleground states within the u.s. and having an opportunity to speak with so many women who have similar stories, which, of course, is harrowing and horrifying. it is just unnecessary that so many women are dealing with abortion bans, the domino effect of abortion bans across the country. i always like to say, though, i'm mobilized by those conversations because i know if donald trump is re-elected to the white house and we don't do everything we can to make sure that women are aware of the domino effect of the overturn of roe v. wade and how that's playing a role in maternal health care across the country, we'd be in a lot of trouble. amanda and i are making sure we get joe biden and kamala harris back in office to restore roe and our reproductive freedoms. >> kaitlyn, in your specific story, when you went to multiple emergency rooms, there might be those who are determined to be against abortion and not see it as health care. there might be some who say, you know, of course a doctor will treat amiscarrying. she was asking a miscarriage. she must not be telling the truth. of course they'd take care of her for that. >> what did they say to you or what did you hear when they were talking about your case with others in the room that made it very clear that the strict abortion laws are what led to you not getting the health care you need when you are in an emergency situation that requires an emergency room? >> yes. my conversations with multiple providers that i saw, and mind you, this is the summer of 2022. this is right after the overturn of roe versus wade. this is right when louisiana enacted our trigger ban, trigger laws for the abortion ban. in that moment, in september of 2022, my husband and i at this time were excited. we were wanting to bring home a second baby. my daughter at the time was 3, almost 4, and we thought it was the perfect time to add another baby. so we're a family that wanted to expand. i want to make that very clear. abortion bans directly impact those who do want to have children. the conversations i had with my providers in that moment were very, very cut and dry. we cannot help you in this moment. we are sending you home with thoughts and prayers. while we understand that you're in a lot of pain, you're going to have to fight this at home. we're not going to be able to administer any type of medication abortion or care in this moment. it was at 11 weeks pregnant. unfortunately, my husband and i have experienced miscarriages before, and so i was well versed in the treatment, especially this far along, and knew what typically that standard protocol is from the medical provider. when you're talking with a provider who will not look you in the eye, who will not refer you out to another provider that can provide the medication you need in order to pass a pregnancy with dignity, then you're talking about the direct impact of what an abortion ban can do in a state like louisiana. again, should a federal ban be enacted across this country, stories like mine will be coming from all over all 50 states. >> claire mccaskill, jump in. >> yeah. first of all, thank you for your advocacy. >> thank you, yeah. >> i was with my daughter when she suffered a very similar situation. i think about what we would have done. we were vacationing at the time. i think about what we would have done if we would have been in a state like my own state, where she would have encountered the obstacle you encountered. we referenced a group that trump spoke in front of. there was a group that believes there should be no exceptions, that life begins at inception, no exceptions for rape or incest. this group says there should be no exceptions for the life of the mother, believe it or not. can you talk about the contrast? also, the same group is having a vote to outlaw ivf for all the families out there that are looking to have a baby and need the help of science to conceive. talk about this contrast, and do you think that independent voters around the country that have not been tuned in understand this chasm of difference between these two men and how they view women's health? >> yes. i do think that independent voters, of course, will play a crucial role in this election and, again, are voting down the ballot on this abortion issue in their states. especially when we're talking about re-electing joe biden and kamala harris and how they've been champions for reproductive health care, especially in the last two years since the overturn of roe v. wade. part of my role and what i'm proud to do across the country is give the information and help folks understand the contrast between a joe biden/kamala harris administration and the potential of trump returning to the office. it is literally the difference between harmful policies that will kill women. let's be clear, not potentially kill women but certainly kill women across this country, should trump be re-elected, versus biden and harris who pledged to restore roe and reproductive freedoms in all 50 states, not just some states. when you speak of this group that trump spoke to yesterday, i find it alarming that someone who is running for the highest level of office in this country would advocate for harmful policies that will kill women, will kill children, and will not put us in a good position when we're talking about terrible maternal health care kill rates since the '60s, right? so i think it is far too dangerous to even teeter on the line of advocating or going further against ivf or contraception or all the things. abortion care is health care. we have seen the science. we've seen the experiences coming out of the southern states. i don't think we can turn a blind eye to that and say that this is something that is not essential to the health care system. >> you have lived it. kaitlyn joshua, thank you very much for coming on this morning. >> no problem. thank you. >> we really appreciate it. all right. still ahead, new footage shows israeli forces rescuing some of the hostages in gaza amid heavy fire. we'll have the latest on that operation and the effort to get hamas to sign off on a cease-fire proposal. 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in response to the former president's rambling campaign rally in las vegas over the, talking about boat batteries and sharks and m.i.t. we will play that contrast with him and president biden in normandy over the weekend when "morning joe" comes right back. k for people who feel limited by the unpredictability of generalized myasthenia gravis and who are anti-achr antibody positive, season to season, ultomiris is continuous symptom control, with improvement in activities of daily living. it is reduced muscle weakness. and ultomiris is the only long-acting gmg treatment with the freedom of just 6 to 7 infusions per year, for a predictable routine i can count on. ultomiris can lower your immune system's ability to fight infections, increasing your chance of serious meningococcal infections, which may become life-threatening or fatal, and other types of infections. complete or update meningococcal vaccines at least 2 weeks before starting ultomiris. if ultomiris is urgent, you should also receive antibiotics with your vaccines. before starting ultomiris, tell your doctor about all of your medical conditions and medications. ultomiris can cause reactions such as back pain, tiredness, dizziness, limb discomfort, or bad taste. ultomiris is moving forward with continuous symptom control. ask your neurologist about starting ultomiris. with the price of just about everything inflating these days, you may wonder why mint is deflating the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. well, it's easy. we know a great price on a great product is better than one of those things. right? does big wireless really believe that these things actually work? ( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) this one will never see the light of day. all right. felons out there, trump was allowed to do his interview at mar-a-lago over a video conference call. yeah, yeah. must make the mandatory drug test kind of difficult. hard to get the pee right into the usb port. the final probation report will remain sealed. one thing the probation folks ask convicts is about their employment. okay. mr. trump, it says here you got fired from your last job for being terrible at it, and for -- is this correct? and for trying to kill a mr. mike pence? i see down here you are actually currently applying for a new job, which is the same job. okay? have you thought about learning to code? >> okay. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, june 11th. good to have you all with us this morning. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early" at politico jonathan lemire and sam stein will be joining us in a moment. we have a lot to talk about this morning. we thought we'd take a look big picture starting out with a column in "the washington post" by gene robinson which asks the question, is donald trump okay? gene focuses on what we heard from trump in his las vegas campaign rally on sunday writing in part, we in the media have failed by becoming inurd to trump's verbal incontinence. not just the rapid fire lies and revenge-seeking threats, but also the frightening glimpses into a mind that is evidently unwell. the white house press corps would be in wolfpack mode if biden were in the middle of a speech and suddenly veered into gibberish about boats and sharks. there would be front page stories questioning whether the president at 81 was suffering from dementia and the op-ed pages would be filled with thumb-suckers about whether vice president harris and the cabinet should invoke the 25th amendment. house republicans would already have scheduled hearings on biden's mental condition and demanded that he take a cognitive test. the tendency with trump at 77 is to say he's just being trump. but he is like this all the time. as a reminder, just some of trump's rally in las vegas on sunday. >> i went to a boat company in south carolina. the boat, i said, how is it? he said it's problem, sir. they want us to make all-electric boats. i said, let me ask you a question. he said nobody ever asks this question and it must be because of m.i.t., my relationship to m.i.t. very smart. i say, what would happen if the boat sank from its weight? and you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery and the battery is now underwater and there is a shark that's approximately ten yards over there. a lot of shark attacks lately. you notice that? a lot of sharks. i watched some guys justifying it today. they weren't that angry. they bit off the young lady's leg because of the fact that they were not hungry, buttis understood who she was. these people are -- he said, there is no problem with sharks. they just didn't really understand a young woman swimming. got decimated and other people -- a lot of shark -- so there is a shark ten yards away from the boat. ten yards. do i get electrocuted if the bolt is sinking, water over the battery. the boat is sinking. do i stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted or jump by the shark and not get electrocuted? he said nobody ever asked me that question. i think there is a lot of electric current coming through the water. if there is a shark or you get electrocuted, i take electrocution every single time. i am not getting near the shark. we can end that. we can end is it for boats. >> one of the tells on how crazy he was, looking the people who had driven hours to be there, put on their trump hats and the whole time they are going like this, looking at each other in the background going, what? what is going on here? turning around, whispering. what is he talking about? he is talking about, willie, what he always talks about. you know, we have trump and he has been doing this, and this is why the biden campaign, and jon lemire has been reporting on this, this is why the biden campaign has been desperate to get donald trump out of a courtroom where he has to be quiet and on the campaign trail where they can actually hear him because trump spews an hour of bizarre non sequitors and he has been doing it for a year or two about sharks, elect trick boats, hannibal lector and what a great guy he is, about executing the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. >> not paying the teleprompter company. >> not paying the teleprompter company. mosquitoes. world war ii. the gathering storm of world war ii that's coming. president obama still being president of the united states, which he continues to do eight years after president obama went home. and i do think gene makes a great point. if joe bide had given one of those speeches it would be on the front page of the "new york times," "wall street journal," "the washington post," and everybody would be doing exactly what they were saying. but for biden, biden goes to d-day and we will talk about this in a little bit, "the washington post" posted a story this morning, he does a fantastic job and they actually use cheap fakes where they are trying to make it look, oh, he is trying to sit down. oh, my god, a chair that's not there. lloyd austin wasn't done with the speech. there were three or four different things where the republican party is lying. so they have to make that up, which is a lot like "the wall street journal's" story where they knew they were lying to their readers. they knew that kevin mccarthy, what he was telling "the wall street journal" was a lie. they knew, and because kevin mccarthy had said before what a great negotiator biden had been in the very meeting where they tried to get kevin mccarthy to say, oh, he was out of it. it's also a big tell that they talk to senators and nancy pelosi. let me explain what happened at that meeting. they went into great detail how biden was pulling people together. i remember in the same meeting it was biden and everybody else trying to move mike johnson along. we reported on at the time. "the wall street journal" runs a front page story, a lead story that they know is a lie. trump, he does it every day. he is out on the campaign trail and people just laugh. oh, yeah, he is crazy. well, look at that. can you believe he is so stupid, he talking about this, he melts down when the tell prompter goes down? that's funny. that's the political world we are living in, in 2024. >> that's one example in a larger point. we could talk about the lies. he does it enough and does it so long and so consistently that people sort of get numb to it. there he goes again. we say all the time on this show, for example, when that "wall street journal" piece came out, you could take any one rally, and this is maybe the best example of it, as you say, joe, 102 degrees, people are standing in the heat. he said, by the way, we will get to this quote, i don't care about you. literally talking to his supporters, voters. i just want your votes, suggesting yeah, it's hot out here, i am the one suffering, i don't care about you. more on that no a moment. he goes on the story about batteries and sharks and he makes that tie because of my tie to m.i.t. his uncle -- >> oh, my god. >> his uncle worked alt m.i.t. in 1940s and just can't -- he feels there is something about m.i.t., he knows that's prestigious, he knows it sounds like he is smart. it was his uncle 80 years ago. all of that. you could -- >> his uncle. oh, my god! what a loon. >> that was just the latest and extreme examples of something that happens. we say it all the time here. you can watch or not. maybe you don't want to watch his rallies or not. it happens every time he steps on a stage. so if you really think that joe biden is the one losing it, pour yourself a drink, sit back and watch that performance in las vegas over the weekend. >> right. >> in nevada over the weekend. that's it. that's the argument right there. >> so sam stein, what republicans don't understand, and i keep trying to explain this to them, but i think i'm just going to give up, when they lie about joe biden's mental acuity, when they lie and they make things up, all they are doing is lowering expectations, lowering expectations, lowering expectations for the biggest campaign event coming, and that is the debate. and they do this time and time again. they say, oh, joe biden's out of it, joe biden's whatever. he goes to the state of the union, kicks them in the teeth. everybody is like, oh, my god, where did that come from? oh e they say he had to be on cocaine because he so good, he was jacked up. no. he was just joe biden. and i have said this before. i to the guy for hours at a time. the guy is all there. you know, years ago i talked to donald trump hours at a time. not all there. and so here we are, they are pushing down. he is much worse now. they are pushing down expectations for joe biden by lying about him. all they're doing in the end is helping him because the whole country is going to be looking at those debates and biden once again is going to exceed expectations because of their false narrative. >> this happened in 2020, too. people might forget it, but there was this big narrative going around he had an earpiece that was feeding him the questions and the answers, and he had to -- it actually took off so much on right-wing media he and his campaign had to put out a tweet joke being it with the earpiece and a pint of ice cream as his debate prep routine. it does diminish the expectations. from a strategic standpoint, it benefits biden. trump's giving away one of the debate questions that will come up, which is how would you rather die? electrocution via an electrical boat or vicious shark attack? now joe biden has one of those questions, too. so in two ways they benefitted biden. let me say on the larger scale, like, look, i don't think -- i think two things could be true. one is joe biden is, you know, old. i think that's objectively true. he is different than four years ago. we all are, right? that's how goes. the other thing that is objectively true is what you said, if joe biden had gone on stage and talked about, you know, a shark attack or being electrocuted in a boat, i it would have been the dominant media story for a week. it would have spawned a whole round of democratic agitation and freak-out. it would have spawned a slew of editorials, wondering if he should drop out. i think there are different standards here and i think it's what willie says, we have become cal /* numbed to the trump routine. >> that is if you look into the history of authoritarianism is a component of that. desensitizing a population, a population becoming inurd and i said it yesterday, i say it today, if anybody made a speech like that, some on the left feel this person is -- that's unfit behavior. that person is unfit for the highest office in the land. unfit to be on this show even. unfit to do any job. he sounded crazy because he was. >> yes. what corporation would hire that guy in leadership? >> nobody. >> none. >> my question is and i'll leave it hanging and toss to you, "the wall street journal" did a front page piece quoting republicans and some democrats about joe biden losing it. >> i think -- >> where is the deep dive in "the new york times," "the washington post," or "the wall street journal" front page? where is the deep dive into this crazy man who is giving so much material that backs up to the fact that he is unfit, that it's almost hard to keep up with? where is the good solid journalism on this? >> yeah, certainly there have been exhaustive reporting about donald trump 'record and what he plans to do in 2025. we have seen a couple of publications in recent weeks a little more about raising the idea of what trump's mental capacity for this job and certainly on this show we talk about it all the time. sam couldn't be more right. it's more an issue for president biden. and that is by most democrats believe deeply unfair. biden only a couple years older than trump. poll after poll suggests shaped by media coverage, what republicans have done, looms larger for biden than trump. an example of a bad faith effort in france for the juneteenth concert, president biden was there for the whole thing, lasted about two hours and the republicans and some of their allies took clips and tweeted them out of the president standing a little slower than some of his colleagues, he wasn't clapping quite in tune. but he was -- i was there. i had my eyes on him the whole time. he was totally fine. the latest example of them trying to paint a picture of him being unfit for the job. are meanwhile, the democrats and the biden campaign ramped up their own attacks on donald trump trying to create a contrast that. was in many ways the implicit subtext of that france trip, reaffirming commitment to allies, vowing to stand with ukraine, stand up for democracy, contrasting with donald trump who is doing none of those things and donald trump seemingly expressing very little interest in the health, safety, well being of his own rally attendees as willie just mentioned, the biden campaign pounced on that moment from las vegas over the weekend and put out this ad. >> because i don't want anybody going on me we need every voter. i don't care about you. i just want your vote. i don't care. >> i'm joe biden and i approve this message. >> short and sweet. there you go. i don't care. and we have heard that from the biden team before and they are making this the -- that, obviously, a sort of joke-y fashion. that's one of their arguments in the wake of the criminal conviction, joe and mika, this is the example of how trump put himself before everything else and that's what he'll do back in office, too. coming up, a new push in the u.n. for a cease-fire in the middle east. david ignatius weighs in on that and how the u.s. is turning up the pressure to on israel's prime minister. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." u... ♪ and doug. 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(elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds) i thought you were right behind me. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪ antony blinken is in israel this morning where he met earlier today with retired israeli general benny gantz, who resigned from the country's war cabinet on sunday. a readout of their meeting said gantz emphasized the importance of exerting maximum pressure on mediators to get hamas to agree to a hostage release deal. in jerusalem, blinken met with prime minister benjamin netanyahu. blinken says netanyahu reaffirmed his commitment to a cease-fire proposal. meanwhile, the united nations security council has adopted a u.s. backed cease-fire plan for gaza. three other cease-fire resolutions have previously failed. this measure lays out a three-phase plan to secure the release of the remaining hostages in exchange for palestinian prisoners. in the second phase, the cease-fire would continue so long as israel and hamas negotiate a permanent end to the war. if the deal falls through, the white house has discussed potentially holding its own negotiations with hamas to secure the release of the five american hostages still in captivity. this comes as we learn more about the israeli's military, daring rescue of four hostages over the weekend. newly released footage shows forces rescuing the hostages. the video has been edited by israeli authorities. the israeli military says the men were held captive in the home of a hamas member. you can hear heavy fire as the operatives enter the apartment in an effort to give the rescuers ample cover. the military says the air force started striking dozens of nearby targets. that led to scores of civilians, including children, to be killed. >> hamas health officials say that at least 270 people died in the raid. israeli sources say less than 100. >> right. israeli forces also rescued a fourth hostage, 26-year-old noa argamani, being held in a building just 200 yards away. >> so, willie, there are so many cross currents going on right now in this war between israel and terrorists, hamas terrorists. you have, of course, the hostage release. extraordinary hostage release. you have benny gantz resigning from the cabinet. you have the united nations backing the u.s. peace proposal. just again a lot going on in israel's northern border. i mean, this is so much going on, so many cross currents. you wonder if this point, this sort of the climax of it where maybe we move to that u.s. authored cease-fire. >> yeah, there are some sticking points, obviously, for the israelis in there and hamas, obviously, cannot be trusted as a terrorist organization in the negotiation. but we will see. you know, it got the votes in the unanimously except for russia abstained in the u.n. security council at the u.n. so we'll see. but that hostage rescue, when luke at the video there, the fact that they were -- those four hostages were alive, the special services of the idf pulled that off. extraordinary. the civilian death that came with it makes things worse, makes things more complicated but hamas could have avoided by not taking hostages and not hiding behind them inside of gaza. let's bring in the columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. joe's point about everything that's going on right now in this critical moment and your assessment of the peace plan from the white house, the peace plan from the u.n., how viable is it? is there enough in there that somehow, some way these two sides could come to the table? >> so, willie, the first thing, the white house is putting on a full-court press on this. they took this peace plan to the g7 first, other major industrial nations got support for it. now they have taken to the u.n. security council, gotten it passed with russia abstaining. they now have the world's leading powers behind this proposal and they now want to, in effect, impose it on both hamas, which has been resistant, and israel, which sometimes is a little bit hard to read about exactly what they agree to and what they don't. right now the main focus is on hamas. secretary blinken in israel made that point very strongly. it's up to hamas to come to the table and do this deal. you ask what is the difference about, and really i think it's about language in the three-part agreement that in minds of israel and hamas determines who can say they won the conflict. hamas is demanding a written statement from israel that there would be a permanent end to hostilities. israel says we don't want to sign a permanent statement. we want negotiations about the transition to the permanent cease-fire where we get to work out all the details of how the future of gaza will go. israel does not want it to see, will not accept future hamas governance of gaza. that's been made clear from the beginning of the war. i think what we will see is continued intense pressure. the problem is, what is the u.s. plan b if this pressure doesn't budge hamas? there is no sign that i see that they are really ready to give up that demand for the permanent cease-fire and there is not an obvious answer right now for the administration except keep banging, keep push, keep pointing to the international insistence that this happen. >> right. and you look at the end, the third phase of the peace process, a movement to a non-hamas governed palestinian authority running gaza, obviously, a big win for israel if, in fact, that is where we end up. david, it's interesting. we saw pictures of the secretary of state, america's secretary of state shaking hands with benny gantz and then benjamin netanyahu. shaking hands with benny gantz after he resigned from netanyahu's cabinet, a man many considered to be a possible successor to netanyahu. we have seen support. we have seen signs that israeliss are still backing president biden and see president biden as a friend. i'm curious, what's the power of secretary of state blinken shaking hands with benny gantz a day or so after he resigns from the cabinet and what kind of impact do you think that has domestically inside of israel? >> well, joe, the first thing to say is that the polls still suggest that gantz is significantly more popular that netanyahu. so to have the american secretary of state symbol of israel's most important alliance there shaking hands with somebody who could be prime minister gives that person a kind of validation. we are going to enter a very strange period now. the war cabinet that has been steering the war for eight months has been effectively dissolved. the remaining people who matter are netanyahu himself and then mr. defense who has ambitions of his own. is gantz going to try to conduct a strident campaign against netanyahu even while the war is going on? that would be difficult. that might cost him some support. i men's one other thing i hear from every israeli i talk to now, and that is don't forget about lebanon. the situation on our northern border is getting worse by the day. the number and intensity of hezbollah rocket fire on the northern towns is insupportable. israelis say they have to get their families who fled the north after october 7th in fear of an attack back there by the start of school in september. i think if that doesn't happen, we could see major conflict in the north later during the summer. coming up, we will stay overseas with the fallout from the far-right victories in europe's latest elections. what it means for immigration policy around the world when "morning joe" comes right back. kids love summer break, but parents? 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will they learn? or will we continue seeing the rise of right-wing parties in germany and france especially? >> so, joe, my guess would be that you'll see a process in europe similar to what you are seeing in the united states. one of the things that i think really is significant in this election season that's gotten relatively little notice is that joe biden basically endorsed the idea that it's okay to have a border. it's okay to enforce your border, that citizens who want border enforcement aren't wrong, that you can't just have undocumented people streaming across without adequate controls. and so he is, because he couldn't pass legislation because the republicans refused, he has had to impose it by executive order. i think something like that is going to happen in europe as well, where people say, it's okay to have a border. you just have to have justice, you have to have adequate rules to accept people who really need asylum and make sure those are as fair and well adjudicated as possible. but i think your basic point that people lost sight of something that's fundamental to your sense of a country has definition, has borders, people who believe that were made to feel that they were wrong and that had some backlash. "the washington post," david ignatius, thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," what we're learning about donald trump's probation interview yesterday ahead of his hush money sentencing and his criminal trial next month. plus, joyce advance with some the lessons jack smith could take away from trump's manhattan conviction. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. be right ba. today a new york city probation officer asked trump a series of questions ahead of his sentencing and trump agreed to join us right now to answer some of those same questions on the record. let's speak to him right now. mr. trump, thank you for talking to us. you have been criminally convicted. where do experts think you should serve your sentence. >> prison, insane asylums, mental institutions. >> okay, now, you own several homes. if you get house arrest, which house would you like to stay in? >> waffle house. >> got it. you are also facing a prison sentence. do you know anyone that has gone to prison? >> all my friends. >> okay. all of them? okay. in prison you might sleep in a bunk bed. what would the climb up to the top bunk be like for you? >> mount everest. >> that's interesting. of course, some inmates get things by trading cigarettes, candy or cash. what would you trade in prison? >> don jr. >> okay. all right. >> and eric. >> all right. boy, throw in eric, too. i understand. a lot of inmates spend time exercising. what would it be like for you to do some weightlifting in the yard? >> ah, ah! >> all right, all right, take it easy. take it easy. just so we have it, what size handcuffs do you wear? >> tiny. >> last question. what do you think you will be doing after one night behind bars? >> say, mommy, take me home. >> thank you for your time. thank you very much. >> some interview. jimmy fallon last night on "the tonight show." yes, former president trump did complete his interview with a new york city probation officer yesterday. a source familiar with the matter says the interview was short, lasting less than 30 minutes. described as, quote, uneventful. it was conducted by private video conference with trump's lead attorney todd blanche by his side, a mandatory process ahead of the july 11 sentencing following trump's conviction last month on 34 felony counts in his hush money trial. the probation officer who conducted the interview will deliver a report to judge merchan who will use it determining trump's sentence next month. joining us two members of the sisters-in-law podcast former u.s. attorneys joyce vance and barbara mccade, author of attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america. more on that in a moment. ladies, good morning. great to have you with us. joyce, take us inside one of those hearings. the less than 30 minutes yesterday that we're hearing about, that interview, i should say, with the probation officer. what kind of questions would the officer be asking former president trump? >> right. so the goal is for the probation officer to conduct a presentence investigation that lets them write a report that the judge can use to arrive at the appropriate sentence. so i think we can all readily understand the kind of questions that are relevant. background, social background, financial background, mental health, physical health. all of the sorts of information lines that the judge need to decide what is the most appropriate sentence under the law for this defendant. you know, what is so unusual here is that donald trump had his lawyer sitting next to him. i know we focused heavily on the fact that it wasn't in person, but new york provides for that with someone who is out of state or might be exigent circumstances. here i think they avoided focusing unfairly on other defendants who are in the probation office that day by do this remotely. but this notion that donald trump gets to have a lawyer sitting next to him making sure that his answers don't subject him to any sort of inappropriate write-up in the report is a little bit startling, willie, because this is supposed to be a candid conversation between a convicted defendant and a probation officer. >> and just quickly following up, joyce, and then i want to get to your piece, but how does the judge use these answers in terms of deciding what the sentence is? >> so, when judges sentence, they use something called the principle of parse moan, which says you shouldn't impose a sentence any longer than necessary to achieve the principles of the criminal justice system. think about rehabilitation. you want to think about deterrence. you want to think about appropriate punishment. and so the judge will use all tv this to arrive at his discretion at a sentence that's within the bounds dictated by law. it's much more art than it is science, mika. >> all right. you have got a new piece in the brunnan center for justice entitled lessons from trump's manhattan conviction for special counsel jack smith. and you write in part, quote, one the most dangerous tactics trump used to convince the public that our norms and expectations about democratic processes like the criminal justice system no longer apply. we spend more time contemplating how trump might derail the system than we do assessing how it should work. and what we are entitled to expect from it. that's perhaps the most important lesson jack smith can learn from the manhattan district attorney's successful prosecution. bragg treated his case like any other in that sense. ushering it from indictment through pretrial motions and on to a trial where it would be up to a jury to decide on the defendant's guilt. justice doesn't require a guilty verdict, but it requires a fair process that allows the prosecution to proceed against defendant trump just like it would against any other defendant. joyce, where has jack smith gone, has he gone afoul in this? what can he glean moving forward? >> right. so in this piece i try to emphasize jack smith, who has been dealt in some ways a bad hand with some of the decisions we have seen judge cannon make, the delay in the supreme court, i think has performed really admirably. and the problem that we face as a society is that there is this malaise, this sense that donald trump and donald trump alone isn't subject to the dictates of the criminal justice system. so this is an institutionalist point. i know it's a little bit of a dirty word, institutionalist. i believe we need strong courts. it goes without saying no defendant is above the law. somehow donald trump has perpetuated this myth that he alone is above the law. and that's an important point for jack smith to take on, not in public, not in press conferences, but in the way he and his team conduct themselves in court and in their pleadings. >> so, barbara, one of the tactics here is disinformation and misinformation. a topic of your recent book. talk to us about just how pernicious and worrisome it is when it comes to the legal cases, particularly those against former president trump. >> yeah, i think one of the things as joyce just said is this effort to undermine respect for the rule of law. people choosing their political tribe over the truth or over the law. what that has a tendency to do is to cause a loss of respect for the rule of law. if people believe that the law is simply one more partisan political tool, it loses all of its value. some of the calls we have seen recently to go after donald . to go after democrats suggest that this is just a political tool. it is not about fairness and accountability. ultimately, that leaves ordinary people to feel that they don't need to obey the law or even vigilante violence to achieve the result they can't get through the political process. coming up, a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including a milestone in the recovery effort of the collapse of the francis scott key bridge. . it's your time to cash in. so don't just play. stay... at northern california's premier casino resort. book your getaway now at cachecreek.com. it's your time to cash in. so don't just play. stay... at northern california's premier casino resort. book your getaway now at cachecreek.com. apple is making its ai debut with the launch of apple intelligence. the tech giant announced several new ai features for iphones and a prep with open ai at its world wide developers conference yesterday afternoon. the company says it will prioritize messaging and notifications along with major upgrades to apple's virtual assistant siri. oh, siri needs some serious upgrades, fyi. anyhow, the main shipping port has reopened after the collapse of the key bridge. a monthslong cleanup effort continued as authorities restored the channel to its original 700-foot width and 50-foot depth. crews worked on removing debris. the collapse has cost the baltimore economy an estimated $1.2 billion. coming up, former house speaker kevin mccarthy is launching a campaign to unseat lawmakers who removed him as their party's leader. first on the list, republican congresswoman nancy mace. she faces a primary challenge today. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." straigh ahead on "morning joe. from pep in their step to shine in their coats, when people switch their dog's food to the farmer's dog, the effects can seem like magic. but there's no magic involved. (dog bark) it's just smarter, healthier pet food. it's amazing what real food can do. ♪♪ welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. good to have you with us this hour. jonathan lemire is with us. we have jennifer palmieri. she and claire are cohosted of the msnbc podcast "how to win 2024." also with us, nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann, barely, barely. literally a nanosecond ago, he was not there. he was late. i'm sorry. late. >> i've never done that. i'm always right on time. mika will tell you a lot of times i'll be sitting out 30 minutes ahead of time. [ laughter ] >> when the camera came on, was i here? >> yeah, man. >> i will give you that. that's true. >> you didn't hear any complaints from me. i respect it. >> thank you, joe. >> i guess i might stand a little bit corrected, because many times the camera comes on and someone else is just not here. >> that's true. >> if you see one shot at 6:00 a.m. and one shot at 6:04, there's a reason, man. there is a reason. you know, hey, willie, a couple of hours ago -- i don't know, this show goes on, like, weeks at a time. a couple of hours ago on our sort of meandering little journey -- >> great tag line for the show, by the way. >> like the canterbury tales. just keep marching. we were talking about disinformation and how crazy it was that donald trump goes out, says the craziest things, and the media yawns. and then while donald trump is talking about electric boats sinking and sharks, president biden is in normandy. all the republicans can do is they actually create disinformation. they actually cut videos that retched from its proper context what biden did over there. so you have disinformation on the republican side. when you have democrats and the mainstream media -- i think the biden job is doing a better job now -- looking at the craziness of what donald trump does and says there, it's like a collective yawn. >> did you see biden couldn't even find the chair, they say? then you watch the clip and see what happened, they sort of laugh it off. this is new analysis from the "washington post" showing republicans, many elected, many in the far-right video, using misrepresented video to go after president biden. in the first edited video, the rnc posted a 12-second clip showing president biden standing next to french president emanuel macron, appearing to reach down with his hands, bend his knees and then freeze. the clip abruptly ends with the president in an awkward position. the full clip shows biden saturday down after the edited clip ended. the wide shot of the stage, shows other people also appeared to do the same. in another edited video, president biden appears to be pulled away by first lady jill biden as one of the events was taking place. the camera pans over to president macron. right wing accounts say the president was pulled away from the event. the full video shows the service had concluded with the president and first lady being directed to the exit. he stops to chat and talk with a number of veterans before finally leaving. a third video appears to show president biden with his eyes closed to claim he was sleeping. however, the full video shows the president momentarily close his eyes during a translated portion of the speech. why do we go through this? why do we show you the "washington post" and their work walking through that? because that is what's happening out there, and that is a message taking hold, many times based on lies and edited video. >> our friends with post grad degrees, our friends who are lawyers, our friends who are very successful will buy this hook, line and sinker. they did it after the horrible fires in hawaii, where biden at a moving memorial service at one point closes his eyes, and they freeze in on that. when you look at it in a full context, like any of us hearing these horrible stories, will close our eyes and reflect, et cetera, et cetera. they have donald trump saying crazy things about sharks and barack obama being president not being able to complete sentences. you've said it time and time again, willie. if people have the stomach to do it, they should watch an entire trump speech because the non seq.uitors. i had a friend call me and say he and his wife sat down and watched the entire vegas speech for entertain because trump was so crazy during that people. crazy is the wrong word. so unpresidential, so out of it, so disconnected from reality -- and john heilemann, you can see the shots of the people behind him like what the held, what's going on. sharks? electric boats? the people are like i have no idea what's going on. i'd like you to talk about the speech and the disinformation, and also how -- i think this is so important -- how these republicans and disinformation liars are actually helping joe biden, because they continue to lower expectations, like they always have. then biden goes to the state of the union and people are shocked he's so good. they spread their lies, they lower expectations and then, boom, biden shows up and embarrasses trump. >> number one, who's not afraid of sharks and electricity in the water? are you guys not worried about that? [ laughter ] >> of course we are. >> i think about it all the time, like, if there was a shark and a drowning person -- i don't know. i mean, look, joking. secondly, joking. secondly, trump, yes, you try to watch a trump speech all the way through, you will be stunned. not just that speech. there's no a trump speech, not one, when he goes on the campaign trail where you will not find similar kind of things. that was an extreme example of his bonkerishness. a lot of the speeches that he does, there was a long walk in the woods several times in each one of those speeches. i think, joe, the third thing i'll say about the cheap fakes, just buckle up, everybody, because you have a situation where china, russia, north korea mbs, all regimes that spread a lot of electronic disinformation, they are all on the side of trump as we head toward november. the kind of deceptive practices we've seen so far to make joe biden look bad, everyone's got to get ready for the assault on our senses and disinformation and misinformation we're going to see in the fall. i think this goes back to what happened last week. i wrote about it in my column in "puck" this week, which is, the "wall street journal" became part of the disinformation about joe biden, i think did do the biden campaign a favor, and i think the biden campaign agrees with that, which is not just that they lowered expectations. with the state of the union, they're making it easier by talking about how infirm he is. then if he gives a reasonably good performance in june, he surpasses expectations. the reaction to the journal piece was so negative that it kind of served as an abject lesson. i kind of reminded people -- a lot of people in our business and elsewhere pointed out how insubstantial the piece was, how poorly sourced it was. they got their rear ends kicked in that piece. this is a high-profile example of supposedly an explosive piece that turns out of the nothing in it. i do think, at least in the mainstream press, for anybody that's thinking about approaching biden's age as a legitimate issue, that reminds people you've got to proceed with greater caution and talk about this on television in a more careful way, because if you do what the "wall street journal" did, you are going to quickly have your reputation ruined. i don't think the people, in the mainstream media at least, want to have that happen to them. >> no doubt there is a double standard when it comes to the coverage of these two men and their ages. donald trump, who has a birthday this week on friday, is just three years younger than president biden. that's within the margin of error, if you will. but, yeah, there's so much more coverage of biden than trump and his age. a lot of that is driven by the far right media ecosystem to try to drive that narrative. there are a lot of anxious democrats looking to the debate at the end of this month saying this is where biden can put some of these things to rest, or if he fairs poorly, they think they that's when they're going to replace him at the top of the ticket. that's not going to happen. don't you think this debate is also a huge test for donald trump, where both men will be under the national spotlight and both men will be under a lot of pressure to not just stay upright, but to appear coherent and in charge? >> yes, 100%. there's a lot of to say about biden, about the age issue, how it's covered, the trip last week. what amazes me is any president who can stay awake in the sun, in europe after flying all night and rushing to the event. it's just -- it is so -- these presidential trips are brutal. when you're flying overseas, they are so hard. he performed so well. staff, you would never sit down, because you knew you were going to fall asleep. imagine if donald trump and not fdr had been president at the time. on the age, you know, trump's birthday is friday. i think a great organizing opportunity for the biden campaign would be to tell their supporters to have house parties on friday to watch a trump speech in full. gather all their friends together, the friends that mika and joe were talking about with friends with post graduate degrees and talk about joe biden's age. you want them to see what a donald trump speech is really like. you know, the fakes will continue. it's going to be the right-minded, fire-minded news media to point out them. then it's going to be on biden supporters to work their friends and say these things are not true. i think ultimately the president will have a good debate performance. that kind of lowers the expectations going in, just as the state of the union did. there are a lot of expectations for how he was going to perform. he crushed it. the age is not going to go away. you've just got to address it periodically and show he's up to the job, as opposed to the other guy. >> the other guy didn't even go to normandy because it was raining and he didn't want to get his hair wet and he was too lazy. >> he went to normandy. he did not visit a world war i cemetery. >> i believe it was raining and there was concern about his hair. the reality about how hard these trips are, jen, you make such a good point. and you can add to that reality the jet lag, the exhaustion, the rushing for everybody in the administration who's in the support team, but for president biden and dr. jill biden herself, those are very difficult trips. on top of it, hunter, his son hunter is on trial. joe biden -- jill biden was in court with him one day. the next day she was in france. the contrast is everywhere all around, donald trump and his family versus joe biden and his family. moving on now, republican congresswoman nancy mace of south carolina is looking to avoid an upset today in her district's primary. mace is facing two challengers with one getting the backing of former house speaker kevin mccarthy. joining us now to explain why mccarthy is getting involved in this race is nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, live from charleston, south carolina. ali, what's going on here? >> reporter: morning, mika. no shortage of bad blood in this republican primary. it's a proxy battle between nancy mace and kevin mccarthy, who she helped to ourself in historic fashion last year. watch. around charleston, south carolina, shade isn't just thrown by the palmettos. >> check out just a few -- this is just a sampling, of catherine templeton. >> reporter: this race to oust nancy mace is the challenge to the republicans who voted out kevin mccarthy last year. >> i'm on the side of the people, not on the side of the establish. >> reporter: now mace appears to be act one in kevin mccarthy's revenge tour. >> are you on a political revenge tour? >> i like how you guys say that. >> 100%. he's a mean girl. absolutely he's a mean girl. this is all about revenge. this is about powerful people that were taken out. >> no regrets about -- >> never. >> mace is no stranger to interparty feuds. trump endorsed her challenger, who she beat by 5,000 votes. now she's back in trump's favor. >> congresswoman nancy mace. we've come a long way. >> we've come a long way. >> reporter: a full-circle moment for the woman who calls on her party to start over from trump after january 6th. >> this was an easy call supporting donald trump, because we've had four years of joe biden. >> mace has outspent her opponent catherine templeton. she's widely seen as mccarthy's pick in this race. >> i haven't talked to him about taking out congresswoman mace, but i have asked him to help me raise money. >> that's when you decided you were running? >> absolutely. she broke our trust, and she did it by voting out kevin mccarthy. >> reporter: still, she downplayed the former speaker's role. >> follow the money. >> reporter: gop groups in for more than $8 million. now it's a proxy battle at the ballot box where voters settle the score one way or the other. >> we need mature adults, not silly girls. >> i want to win bigger than ever and send a message to washington that voters don't care about d.c. >> reporter: winning big for mace could have big implications in terms of whether or not she avoids a runoff two weeks from today. hitting that 50% threshold is going to be absolutely key. around her company office she has 60/40 signs pasted on the wall. she says she wanted to be able to send a message that as many times as she's faced primary challenges from in her own party, she can consistently take them down. templeton says she would like to take it to a runoff. runoffs are a place where there's less challengers to be considered, and potentially voters could focus in more and turnout to be lower. you look one week down the road. this is act one in what we're calling the revenge tour for the former speaker. just next week i'll be in virginia where congressman bob good, who's part of the house freedom caucus, is facing his own challenger there. the big difference between south carolina and virginia is trump has endorsed bob good's challenger, unlike here, where he's endorsed nancy mace. still, we'll be watching how they fare as they face these challenges down the road. >> good kissed the ring, but got nothing to show for it. ali, thank you so much. john, we're two weeks out from the debate. it's kind of crazy we're talking about a presidential debate in june. we talked about the stakes. we talked about expectations for the president perhaps being lowered from the attacks. what will be a good night for joe biden at the end? >> as we mentioned before, i do think that if you were in a normal world, if you were a strategist on donald trump's campaign and you saw him in vegas on saturday, you would be not super confident deep down about putting him in the debate with joe biden. you would be worried. the debates in 2020, four years ago when donald trump was much more compos mentis than he is right now. the impact of the debate when trump was so far off the chain significantly helped joe biden. i think the trump campaign understands that their i guy could have a bad night. i think the biden campaign looks at this as another state of the union. for them, the age issue peaked when hur, the special counsel, said the things he said back then. that set up the state of the union, where biden exceeded all the expectations. they understand this is going to be another one of those nights. but one of the most interesting things about this issue is there's two audiences for it. there's the voting public. people who think joe biden is too old are probably already gone for them. the rest of what they worry about is the democratic bed-wetters, hearing that chorus of democrats worried about joe biden's performance, whether he's going to win. after the state of the union, they largely got quieted down. the biden campaign has been taking them aside privately, democrats, and saying, here's our path to victory. they know this debate for keeping democrats together is going to be crucial. i think a good night is in joe biden does essentially what he did at the state of the union, and you get to see donald trump in a spontaneous session over two how weres where we may hear about things even crazier than sharks and electrocuted water. >> the stupid things says won't be covered up by clapping audience members. >> or chants. >> or chants or boos, or hisses, or whistling. the stupid things donald trump says will hang in the air quietly with no studio audience. i hate to circle back to the "wall street journal" story, because i read the "wall street journal" every day. >> it really stood out though. >> it did. >> it was weird. >> it was really strange. i've got to say one of the stranger articles i've ever seen, where they quote one source, who undermines what he told the press and what he told his staff members when the actual meetings were happening, when he was calling joe biden a very good, tough negotiator, and said, i look forward to talking to him every day this week, it was so productive. again, i've just got to say, jen, one of the reasons we didn't hear in that article from democrats, bedwetting or non-bedwetting, i talked to the "wall street journal," i was there, biden directed this meeting in a really effective way. you had patti murray saying i spoke to them at length about how effective joe biden was in the meeting. and for some funny reason, they didn't use any of my information. well, it was a hit piece. i'm sure we'll find out down the road who pushed that hit piece, because i guarantee you there were editors and i would suspect the actual journalists on that piece who were very uncomfortable with the way it ended up. >> it was like a puzzle piece that didn't fit. >> i will say, like john heilemann said, the biden campaign really needs to report that as an in-kind contribution, because it underlined the fact that there are two crazy double standards here on the age issue and that there are some people who are willing to outright lie about joe biden. >> the -- i'm still -- can i also just say i'm still reeling from all of the misogyny that was flying around the nancy mace story? perhaps "morning mika" ali vitali on about referring to mean girls and silly girls. if you step away and look objectively of the impact of the "journal" story, it gave you an opportunity to get a number of respected democratic members of congress in the senate on the record talking about how effective donald trump is in meetings -- >> joe biden. >> yes, joe biden. [ laughter ] >> -- where i'm working on a story, you have to talk to a lot of people that can validate your point of view and they're not including the story. that is very frustrating. these days, you don't have to accept that, you can put these out there yourself. you're looking for these moments of inflection where take the vulnerability and turn it into a strength. i really think that, you know, not everyone in america was paying attention to the trip last week. i'll remind everybody that the president has to go back at the end of this week for the g 7, another leadership opportunity. these trips to european, particularly as right wing leaders are rising in other parts of that continent, it raises the stakes and you see biden's age and his experience, particular his foreign policy experience, really mattering. and try to imagine donald trump in this world with those right wing leaders also in europe and how biden's age and experience from foreign policy is a huge strength. i think we'll see that again at the end of the week, also another rough foreign trip that he'll probably do really well on. >> yep. >> for sure. jen palmieri, thank you so much. we appreciate it. john heilemann, thank you as well. you can listen to john's new podcast "impolitic." it's awesome. thank you, john. coming up on "morning joe," apple jumped into the ai arena. andrew ross sorkin joins us next with the details. 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>> so he originally cofounded open a.i. with the idea that it was set up as a not for profit that would be trying to do good, would not be controlled by corporations and would be a secure and open, if you will, a.i. system. open a.i. has otherwise since then turned to be a closed system, so they don't release their source code, the public really can't look inside. it's a bit of a black box. that has frustrated him. >> also -- >> yep. >> i'm sorry for the delay there in interrupting. he's been really nervous about a.i., and he was actually one of the first tech giants to come out and say this is a threat to humanity. >> so he is scared and believes that long-term a.i. may be an existential threat to humanity. he has been talking about that from the very beginning. that's one of the reasons he wanted to create open a.i. as a very open system. as they have made partnerships with microsoft and other corporations, he has been frustrated about the direction this has all gone, and it has scared him, because he believes they're getting close to true artificial intelligence. if you can get to that level effectively, he believes that could create a real problem for humanity. the truth of what's happened yesterday in terms of the apple announcement is open a.i. is integrated but not really into the phone. you're going to be able to use it, but every time you want to use it you have to press a button and say i want to use open a.i., almost like an app. i think now that he's seen it, i'm not sure he's going to have the same kind of frustration. it was a very interesting announcement in terms of how the a.i. is going to work on your phone, because you're going to do all things you can do before. if you can't remember a photo you saw, you can say, hey, i was skateboarding wearing a tie-dyed shirt, it can find it. that's on the cool side. on the scary side, for those of us with children -- and this is important, guys -- interestingly, all of the -- you know, if you want to have the phone proofread what you're writing or even make your paper better, literally make your paper better, you can do that one touch right there. you can describe what you want your paper to be, your essay, and it will write it for you. so i think there's going to be lots of -- you know, there's some very cool things that are going to make us a lot more productive and efficient, and there's other things that are going to raise real concerns from a societal perspective about what we're going to do and how this is going to work. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. fascinating and scary. coming up, authorities release a new mugshot of rudy giuliani as part of the arizona fake electors case and the 2020 election. our next guest warns the way information spreads now, quote, if you make it trend, you make it true. we'll talk about that, next on "morning joe." ♪ move west down ventura boulevard ♪ n ventura boulevard ♪ severe crohn's disease skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. control of crohn's means everything to me. ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. ♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. do you have any regrets about what you did in arizona after the election? >> oh my goodness, no. i'm very proud of it. very powerful people are covering it up. >> like who? >> the president of the united states. >> do you believe you'll be acquitted? >> it's unconstitutional. this is a complete misuse of the criminal process to interfere with the 2024 election. >> that's former new york city mayor rudy giuliani after being booked at the maricopa county sheriff's office yesterday for his role in the arizona fake electors case where they tried to make up fraudulent electors to send to congress. giuliani facing charges and pleading not guilty and released on a $10,000 cash bond. i was actually talking a couple of days ago in new york to an immigrant, somebody who immigrated to the united states in 1989 and was overcome by just how horrible new york city was, said she was depressed for months after she got to new york city. it was in the middle of rough times, crack epidemic. we all remember '89, '90, '91 as a bad time for the city. and bloomberg and de blasio started a sort of renaissance, a sort of golden era in new york city. she commented on how sad it was to see what became of rudy giuliani over the years. here's a guy called america's mayor, got a lot of people, gave a lot of people reason to believe after 9/11 that things were going to be okay. and to see him in this state and end his career and his life this way, is, i think, really unfortunate. i will tell you, you'll look at his election returns. a hell of a lot of democrats and liberals voted for him because they saw the change in new york city. >> a nearly unprecedented fall from grace. his first term is widely considered a huge success, president clinton safety at the forefront. his second term was much more divisive. after 9/11 he became a hero. i lived in new york at the time. i was down at ground zero the next day. a lot of new yorkers had really soured on rudy giuliani. but people were deeply indebted to him for what he did after the terror attacks. but this is remarkable, how he's attached himself to donald trump, unrepentant in that clip there, continues to spout the big lie and now faces some pretty serious criminal charges in a couple different jury dictions. >> he's been in trouble for this over and over. he's got to pay a bunch of money for defamation in the georgia case. and yet he continues to go down this road. what you saw there was, in fact, desperation. he needs to keep donald trump and his world and money and supporters. he's broke. he has millions of dollars of legal bills ahead of him, more cases ahead of him. so he digs deeper into this lie, the one that got him into trouble to begin with. >> we talked about people that have sort of attached themselves to donald trump through the years who really didn't like him when he was running the first time. rudy giuliani was one of those people. off set i was talking to him and he said he was really critical of donald trump. he told me, he's one of the only people i know who just doesn't know how to compromise, doesn't know how to get in a room and get things done, because most people, he said, leave a room and it's like, okay, well, they got something they wanted, i got something i wanted. a good day. with donald trump, it's i win, you lose, or else it's a failure. that's why if you look at what he passed while he was president of the united states, nothing, nothing other than the largest tax cut for billionaires and multinational corporations in u.s. history. >> and yet some people say, oh, i wish for the trump years, people who follow donald trump. and why giuliani continues lying about the 2020 election, our next guest argues there was an entire online ecosystem that allowed what i was just talking about, the stop the steal movement to fester and other things. renee diresta joins us now, author of the new book entitled "invisible rulers, the people who turn lies into reality." renee, you write about how the relationship between online influencers, algorithms and crowds is causing a proliferation of rumors and propaganda. explain, if you could, what is happening before our eyes. >> sure. so the book delves into how reality is increasingly fragmented. if you trend, you make it true. something trends on your screen, you feel like, hey, that's something i think about. either i'm very angry about it, either a support it. either way you're going to get into it yourself and post something, retreat something. by doing that, you're participating in that process, helping other people see that content. that dynamic of influencers, algorithms and crowds is what shapes public opinion today. >> who then would be, renee, these invisible rulers you talk about? who are they, and is there anyway the rest of us could influence them? >> sure. invisible rulers is kind of a play on that idea. back in the 1920s, the people who control what we think about, the people who shape public opinion are not the politicians that we see necessarily. it's actually the people behind them. the people who make us want to buy things are not necessarily just the advertisers, but the people who manage to convince a group that it makes sense, for example, for women to smoke cigarettes. i wanted to connect the dots. we figure the people we follow on the internet relate to us. when they talk about candidates they support, we pay attention to that too. it's understanding the role of influencers in shaping public opinion. and can we influence them? the answer is yes, and a actually we do. the influencer really express more and more extreme viewpoints if that's what their audience is looking for. that's because for them, this is ultimately a business. it is a way to earn a living. they believe some of what they're saying, of course, this is also a way for them to, you know, to feed their kids, to gain popularity. >> this is really important. the new book is entitled invisible rulers, the people who turn lies into reality. renee, thank you very much. what she brought to the table with this book, it is so important, it is how the lives survive and thrive and the algorithms are a big part of it. >> they really are. what is important to remember is that the disinformation has always been with us. it just -- you know, over the past 50, 60 years. you have books out like call it treason and people saying lyndon johnson killed people that got in his way. bush 41, the big lie that spread was that he flooded black neighborhoods with crack cocaine. bill clinton, the clinton chronicles, a videotape series. jerry falwell had videotape series saying bill clinton was a murder and murdered all these people, and it goes on and on and on and the birther, the birther lie, from donald trump, the difference now is it is -- you just -- you can do it on your phone, and it spreads immediately. >> it is really important. everybody should take a look at that book. still ahead, academy award nominee minnie driver joins us next on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. next on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds the country is divided. the so-called profit. >> let god's will be done. >> the queen of england has arrived in france. >> [ bleep ] me. >> what a lovely hand. >> we will soon be at war. you have to take a side. >> war with the protestants. >> what fun. >> war with the catholics. >> she'll cut your [ bleep ] off. >> wow. >> shall we? >> after you, your majesty. >> wow. that was minnie driver in there, a look at the second season of "the serpent queen" on starz, it shows the showdown between the queen mother of france and england's queen elizabeth i, the two most powerful women in europe battle over control of the countries, their families and their legacies. joining us now, one of the co-stars, minnie driver. hello, minnie. >> hello. >> that is a thriller of a series. >> yeah. >> in season two. you enter the fray as queen elizabeth i. so, where do we find ourselves? i think, obviously, queen elizabeth ii the modern world is familiar with. but tell us about queen elizabeth i in the 16th century. >> i think first of all in that period, being a woman was tough. it is still tough. she and catherine domenici, the serpent queen, were the most powerful women in europe. and there is always, as there still is today, political and religious jockeying for power and position and alliances that need to be formed and, of course, elizabeth i we know never married anybody, but everyone was always trying to marry her. and catherine domenici wanted her to marry one of her sons, she had three children who were the kings of france, respectively, and it would have been a good alliance between the protestant queen elizabeth and the catholic french court. and, of course, elizabeth goes to really put a cat amongst the pigeons, she has no intention really, i don't think of marrying anybody. but she goes to sort of case the joint and see what's happening in france. and this delicious, amazing, powerful women kind of meeting their match. and there is so much political skulduggery and sexual impropriety happening in the french court anyway, but it is a rocking show. >> it is. >> it is funny and clever and savage and beautiful. >> when you watch it, it is a rocking kind of show. can you speak to the style of it? because it feels in its music and its pace, it is in your face a little bit, it feels like modern times with costumes almost. >> i think it is because justin haith is an extraordinary writer. he is a novelist, he is a screenwriter, he wrote the movie "revolutionary road," he created "serpent queen," his prose is maybe the best i've ever spoken. he's -- i don't know how he manages to make things poetic and sexy and historically brilliant, but also available to people. like, it's tricky now. we have all experienced what a kind of modern take on historical stories from movies like "the favorite" and shows like "the great," they want it to be in the vernacular of today, but also reference the history and justin is a master at creating that. so it was so beautiful to speak these words and she is a riot. elizabeth is -- she's a woman of appetite, which is justin's words, and i love her. i love and revere her. >> can we speak about the look? when you come on screen, it is -- >> it is fun. >> it is the costume, of course, the wardrobe, the hair, the makeup. what was it like to step into that role, physically? >> agony, physically. really my -- your body takes a hit, like, that costume is about 80 pounds and then the wig and the headpiece on top of that, it was a lot. but it was also 99% of my performance is that hair and makeup and process. i was looking in the mirror once i was done and was, like, i'm the queen. >> there it is. >> there she is. >> so let's take a look at another clip where your character schemes on how to take down your rivals. >> well -- >> seems like someone we can do business with. >> if you don't mind the market. >> it is far easier to deal with people who have something to lose. all we need do is fan the flames of religious unrest in france and the queen mother will give england every advantage in the trade deal she would much prefer to war. >> and your cousin mary, any improvements on her condition? >> she made her bed. when the time is right, i'll cut her [ bleep ] head off. >> wow. minnie, i love this for so many reasons. especially just the concept of queens exploring, realizing, losing, gaining their power. it's fantastic. i'm curious, for you personally, back in your younger years, maybe in your 20s, when you were very young, did you ever imagine your career well after the age of 50 or 60 or 70, did you see a career in your future that went beyond those years? >> i mean, i think part of the hubris of youth, i think at 20 or 25 i thought i was always going to be a shining star in my own life, and then, you know, there is a wonderful humility that comes with getting older and being schooled by the vest tuds of life and your career. the fact i'm here 30 years later, basically playing dressup in the most elaborate and beautiful inspiring way is thrilling. and wonderful. but i don't -- i don't know that i -- i certainly didn't have the maturity to imagine that i would have a marathon of a career. i really thought it was a sprint back then. >> you very much are still here and with force. this is an extraordinary series, season two of the serpent queen premieres july 12th on starsz. minnie is brilliant for being here. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," verdict watch. the jury back to deliberating this morning in the federal gun trial of hunter biden. we're live at the courthouse in delaware. also ahead, returning

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