Transcripts For MSNBCW Civil 20240702

this is a film about storytelling. about how we tell the story of our country's past. why do we want to believe one version and not another? maybe because it makes us feel safe at night. there is one episode of america's history that is told very differently depending on who you are and where you live. it is the story of our civil war and what came after. ♪♪ >> the winds of war blew across the land, made of it a country divided. friend turned into foe. brother fought against brother. it was such a long and drawn-out struggle, and the feeling on both sides was so intense. >> we're all just romantics, lost in contemporary times, you might say. every one of us feels we was born 125 years too late. >> to introduce myself, my name is rachel boynton. this is nelson walker. >> hi. >> we are independent documentary filmmakers. we're making a film about how we tell the story of the civil war. we're filming in lots of different schools, and we're going places with a deep connection to this history. >> there is a lot more coming. >> what made you choose the civil war and reconstruction? >> well, you know, america is kind of like a big family that tore itself apart during the civil war. and in order to make peace, we told ourselves a certain story about it. and for a long time, we had trouble telling the difference between that story and the truth. you can ask me anything you want. >> what did you want to do when you were little? and did you have a backup for if you couldn't get that? >> when i was really little, i wanted to be superman. when i got to be a little older, i wanted to be an anthropologist. do you know what an anthropologist is? >> no. >> somebody who goes around the world and studies the way other people live. >> so like this? >> kind of like this, yeah. >> people are having to come to grips with the civil war and enslavement which are the sort of founding bases of the country. >> our country is like a really old house. you may not want to go into that basement, but if you really don't go into that basement, it's at your own peril. whatever you're ignoring will be there to be reckoned with until you reckon with it. >> these voices were all happening on the eve of the civil war. i'm interested in what you think about. i'm interested in who's saying this. and i'll also give you the succession documents from south carolina. where is he from, what he is about, who is he? >> he is a philadelphia congressman, i believe. >> no, ohio. >> i think he is from ohio. so he delivers this when? when is this written? because that's one of the questions i asked. >> december 22, 1860. >> what is he saying? >> he doesn't want succession. he knows if there is a succession, there will be a huge war. >> people will know this war with their own eyes. he sounds scared, doesn't he? >> yeah. >> i think he probably was. what stood out to you in the arguments? >> so our article was presented by alexander stephens in atlanta, georgia. and not once does he talk about slavery, property, and what the war is really about, what they're really fighting for. >> other voices? yeah? >> i notice there seems to be a common idea that the civil war was totally about slavery. i'm going to disagree with that. the south did want to leave the union because of slavery, but the issue of the civil war was keeping the south in the union. so slavery isn't like the entire issue. >> pushback? comments? we will continue tomorrow. you are a thinker. that is for sure. the wedge is the slavery issue, right? i think we're agreed on that. it's just a way of describing it. yeah. good job. go, go, go. >> you're spending a lot of time telling the story of the civil war and reconstruction in your eighth grade class. why? >> because i think we have not adequately, you know, understood who we are as a nation. there is so much of this history that has been way too difficult for this country to look at. the reason it's important to understand this history is because we carry it within us. these things need to be unpacked and looked at and talked about, and we need to decide what we think about them now. it's challenging, but it's where the juice is. >> we call it the war between the states here. we don't call it the civil war. >> why it is important to call it the war between the states? >> because that's what it was. >> that's what it was. >> it wasn't the civil war. >> the war of aggression. the north came down here and invaded us. we didn't go up there. >> my grandmother said they had to hide the food in the chimney because the soldiers came. they'd take everything they had. they'd take all their livestock, any food in the house. it was terrible. and the war took place in our backyard. for the people up north, the war was a distant thing. >> we're both members of the local sons of confederate veterans, and we are responsible for taking care of this cemetery. but i'm afraid when herb and i are gone and our generation, that it will -- there is not going to be anybody around to take care of it. >> or to promote the true history of the 1860-1865 period of time. >> this class that i'm filming, the teacher is teaching the cause of the war is slavery. >> oh really? >> does that offend you? >> yes. >> can you explain to me why? >> because it's not true. you're telling stories that aren't true about my ancestry, about my family, about my country, the south. >> and tell me what the untrue thing is. >> slavery. they are not telling the whole story. slavery was one of the reasons. but for that professor to say that economics had nothing to do with that war is totally false. >> i would have fought for the south. you know why? it had nothing to do with political reasons. it's because my home was being invaded. >> the confederacy lost this war big time. no americans have ever lost a war quite like the confederacy lost this war. white southerners are going to need to process what the meaning of that whole collapse of their society really is. and their explanation of their defeat becomes a narrative. it becomes a memory. it becomes the lost cause tradition. and the lost cause tradition was this argument that the confederacy had really fought for noble aims. the war wasn't really entirely about slavery. it was about defending their homelands, their families, their women. that slavery was not the great issue. that if left to them, they would have handled slavery over time, and maybe even gotten rid of it themselves, they said, which is nonsense. there were alternative textbooks eventually published in the south, and it wasn't just textbooks they were trying to control. it was the stories being widely told in the public arena. and they had a tremendous influence. so what is at stake in the memory of the american civil war is who gets to control this narrative, the story. our financial planning tools and advice can help you prepare for today's longer retirement. hi mom. that's the value of ownership. have fun, sis! ♪♪ can't stop adding stuff to your cart? get the bank of america customized cash rewards card, choose the online shopping category and earn 3% cash back. okay, wait. i got to move the microphone. do you have any questions for me? >> i had one. i forgot what it was. do you consider yourself a radical person? >> am i a radical person? no, i'm not a radical person. i think i'm someone who questions things. i'm questioning the stories we tell. like in your class the story about slavery, right? they tell us something about why we're so divided. do you see us living in a divided country? >> every day. ♪♪ >> the high school creed. i'm the member of the high school family. education first. >> the kids that i have here are determined to not follow in the footsteps of what was in the past. i'm hoping i can spark something in them to say i want to know more. i want to learn more. >> in mississippi, do people talk about slavery as the cause of the war? >> you don't really hear the word "slavery" or "slaves" in mississippi. that was an incidental part of it. i guess the term is whitewash as i told my classes. a lot of time you want to see the good part of the history, especially history that you were part of. and you want to minimize the bad part about it. slavery is not an easy topic to tackle for black or for white. >> so how do you tackle the story of slavery? >> one thing is that the slaves were more powerful than we give them credit for. >> people said that lincoln freed the slaves. but you say actually they freed themselves. why? >> that was a question. >> why couldn't slaves free themselves in a sense before all of this if they freed themselves? >> we did have the abolition. we had nat turner. we had those people who stepped forward. but those people to me were just as brave as the 1960s. probably more brave. >> come on. >> think about nat turner. >> he was slave. >> to make a change, you got to be a little crazy. >> that's it. he caused people to think. he went from plantation to plantation, killing everybody. and he wanted to kill the women and children. he wanted to do that. why? >> you expect for a dude to do that. you wouldn't expect a mother, three kids. he set the right tone. you're going to kill them wise, cheering. >> don't take for granted the lives that were lost. whose brave enough to try and assist him when he is wrong? that's what makes these guys to be heroic. we can't devalue what we did. a white guy whose grandfather was a confederate, and he can keep that memory alive. why can't we? >> in holmes county, i noticed how we had the browns and the williams. we also had caucasian people with the same last night. i always wonder is there a relation between the two? and then i learned that, you know, slaves got their last names from their slave owners. so it's like did this family own this family? or like did they come from -- i always wondered about that. >> there is this enormous history of slavery in holmes county. do people ever talk about that? >> about? >> just the question of the history of slavery here. >> no. >> do you know if your ancestors were enslaved here? >> i don't know. >> would you want to know? >> not really. >> why? >> because i don't want to think about what all they went through for us. >> how come? >> because they are -- because they worked for all their life being a slave and not being treated right. that will just bring me down because they suffered. and i wish somebody could have done something back them that helped them out. >> so you don't want to think about it because it makes you sad? >> uh-huh. >> i don't want to hate people. and i want to hate people based on their character towards me now, not what they did hundreds of years ago, what their family did hundreds of years ago. >> i think white people are afraid it's going to make them feel ashamed. >> i think so too. that's why they're probably -- when they're teaching -- i know i keep going back to the teaching. but that's where it all starts. because i doubt you if a white man would tell his 6-year-old daughter we owned slaves or we did this to slaves, or like i doubt if that happens. >> i think we all should learn the real history, because as black people, we think we know, but we don't. i never met my great-grandmother. and, you know, they don't talk about slavery and the racial desegregation. they don't talk about it. >> would you want to ask her about it? >> i would. but i wouldn't. i think she would say she don't know to avoid the conversation. >> and why do you think she would want to avoid the conversation? >> it might hurt her. she might feel mad about it. >> it's hard to talk about things like that. >> yeah. ♪♪ >> it's personal around here. we're in a southern city, and we're talking about the civil war. and i'm going to have students who are pulling for the confederacy. i was that student. i pulled for the confederacy, because they're southern. i'm southern, right? and it's not about slavery in your mind. it's just like it's the cowboys versus the redskins and you want the cowboys to win the football game, right? that's what it is in their head. so when you throw slavery in there, it complicates it. it's not a football game. this was real. most history classes we teach that the winners write history. the civil war, the losers end up writing the history. when we look at southerners and how they tried to twist the narrative of what happens, i want us to put ourselves in their shoes and look at why. if you can teach empathy when it comes to history, i think it's such a powerful thing for the rest of your lives. >> all right, boys. in your packet, turn to new perspectives on slavery. what we've got here are statistics about slavery. and i want you to talk about what jumps out at you. >> it says about like 1.1 million southern white families owned no slaves, and only about 350,000, a little over 350,000 owned slaves. that's only a fourth or a fifth, which is actually a pretty crazy statistic. for a handful of people to have one to five slaves probably around the household, probably would have been treated pretty well. >> well, it depends. >> of course the southerners were trying to -- i mean, they weren't treated like regular humans, but they took care of them because they were a way to make money. >> correct. it's an investment. that's my money. i need to take care of my money. i want that to keep producing more money for me. therefore i take care of it. and i don't take care of it and provide. it's still a dirt floor they sleep on, you know. it's still i'm working them 10 to 12 hours. it's not -- let's look at 210. whips per person. in the south, where was the wealth? so owning land and owning slaves. if i invested $23,000 in something, i don't want to beat it to a pulp, right? so why did they do it? >> fear. >> fear. you hit on it. that's the word. here is what american slavery is about, money and fear. they're making lots of money and they are terrified of what happens if this goes away. what happens when people talk about abolition and emancipation? what do i start picturing in my head? >> getting lynched. >> yes, retribution. they're going to come after us. so you can look at it and say you know, this situation is not great, but i don't want to get lynched. i don't like people throwing rocks through my windows. k. 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( ♪♪ ) we're still going for that nice catch. we're still going for that sweet shot. and with higher stroke risk from afib not caused by a heart valve problem, we're going for a better treatment than warfarin. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk. and has less major bleeding. over 97% of eliquis patients did not experience a stroke. don't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking, you may bruise more easily or take longer for bleeding to stop. get help right away for unexpected bleeding, or unusual bruising. it may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. we're going for it. ask your doctor about eliquis. the violence. police officers pointed guns into crowds of young people. it was shocking to me. why are we still in a war in this country over race? slavery, it lasted 200 years. you have to develop a psychology on the part of the white people who were doing this that involved enormous acts of denial. we haven't even claimed it as the horrific system that it was. >> she says slavery is the cause. and so many white people that we hear say don't talk to me about slavery. i didn't own slaves. my parents didn't own slaves. >> the cultural conditioning that began in slavery has continued. the privileges that you see that some white people goes back to i'm better than you. >> why, why? why are they better? >> oh, i don't believe it. >> i know. but why do they think they're better? >> privilege. privilege has told them they're better. >> they don't even know they're privileged. i remember a book i read in seminary -- >> i'm glad they don't know they're privileged. >> well, i serve a congregation of overeducated white people who don't recognize their privilege. they don't see that you start that -- >> if you don't feel that you are privileged, how do you account for the differences between white people and disadvantaged black people? >> they're not comparing themselves to black people, right? my white friends are mostly comparing themselves to other highly educated well off white friends. >> but when you say white people can't get it, i don't buy. >> i don't know they can't get it. they don't get it. >> since the '60s, i have been proving myself, and there comes a point in life when you say i'm done. it's on them now because i know i'm okay. so the way i look at it is your loss. i don't intend to spend all of my life proving to white people that i'm okay. >> don't prove it. i think you got to educate them. >> no, we don't. >> well, what i'm saying is nothing wrong with having conversation. >> last night i was at this dinner. there was this conversation about slavery being the source of our racial problems. the topic of white privilege came up a lot, the idea of white people have advantages in this country. yeah, advantages, or you could flip it around and say black people have disadvantages in this country, simply because of skin tone. >> i feel like it kind of goes both ways. sometimes white people have a disadvantage. i had a friend a couple of years ago, his gpa was 4.26. and his friend was black that had a 3.933. and they both applied to princeton, and the black kid got in. everyone says well, there is a lot of white privilege so we have to give other ethnicities advantages in this place instead of trying to view everyone as an american. >> not talking about the race issue. just not bringing it up to the next generation would keep them natural in that sense and they would not be racist. >> i don't think that slavery and the civil war and jim crow should be forgotten. i think that they should be remembered because they're an important lesson that america isn't perfect and to work against that in the future. >> if you look at things like the incarceration rate for young black men in this country and why it's so disproportional or why you have the socioeconomic situations you have between, say, white people and black people, that you can see this didn't come out of nowhere. this isn't a reflection of the tone of somebody's skin. it's based in history that goes back before your generation, before my generation, before my grandparents' generation. it goes way back. >> i think there is a balance between like recognizing our past, but also not overtalking it and overemphasizing the problem to where it's always on our minds. it's difficult to be very equal when something is always on your mind is racism and things like that. >> so please welcome dr. kelley carter jackson. [ applause ] >> so first off, i want to tell you a story about one of my students. he raised his hand and he said "who is harriet tubman?" and i was oh my god. i tried really hard as a professor, you have to fix your face. before i could answer the question, he goes oh, i remember. she's the woman who wouldn't get off the bus. and i was no, no, that's not her at all. but it's important because i think it highlights the fact that we only see one great black man and one great black women per century. so "force and freedom," my book really tries to introduce new voices and highlight black abolitionists in particular. the moment the first black person is enslaved, they're pushing back. they're collecting arms as much as they possibly can to prepare for what they believe is inevitable, and that is the violent overthrow of slavery. >> there seems to be a kind of curricular resistance to teaching this aspect -- >> yeah. >> -- of teaching american history. and look, also a historian, i can understand. i can anticipate why. but i just want to get you to talk about, it takes your book to underscore force as well as freedom. >> yeah. >> we all know that that's a part of this history, but it's not taught that way. >> it's not taught i think because we have this hypocritical, i think hypocritical love affair with violence. we talk about violence in these really romantic ways. but that's only when we're talking about white men, right. when the situation is reversed, it is terrifying to think of black people using force or using violence to bring about their freedom. >> so i want to talk to you about what you've learned so far, right, in college. is there anything you've learned here about the story of the civil war that would be hard to talk about with people back home? >> yeah. if -- my daddy is a typical southern male. he knows everything, and you don't question him, and, you know. i love him to death. that's just the way he is. that's the way people are down here. if i told him that the main cause of the civil war was slavery, then he would probably like, i don't know, open a bottle and start preaching at me and stuff like that. i don't know. >> why would he find that offensive? >> well, my great, great grandfather did fight in the civil war, and he did come back. he didn't die or anything. he came back alive. but it messed him up so bad. it was a bad situation for my family at the time that i would not know near enough about to really like be able to give details, but it's just remembrance of how hard times were at that time. because it was really hard for my family because we were born and raised in mississippi. and like in my grandparents' house, i tell them how old, in one of those flag boxes. and we don't take it out. we don't rub it in people's noses. it's just up there above a cabinet. ♪♪ >> it has been called the war of brother against brother, the civil war. soldier and nation together found that their fears and doubts were not so strong as their faith, and in national shrines like gettysburg, we memorialize the men of both sides who gave of themselves unreservedly for what they believed to be right. remember and be proud. >> we've never really had a racial reckoning. the problem started first immediately after the war. if you want north and south to get together and get along again, you don't talk about causes and consequences. you talk about the mutual valor on that battlefield. >> why doesn't that confederacy, which only lasted four years, just go away? the racial reasons are paramount, but it also has to do with this idea that the confederacy was a descent. man. that went to the limit and they deserved respect for all that courage. they claimed after they've lost that they're only reacting to the overreach of centralized federal power, and there is a kind of admiration for that still in our culture. ♪♪ >> he settled this farm almost 200 years ago. and i felt like i followed in his footsteps. my wife raised the children. all i ever did was work. of course now federal government took my farm. so -- i had it financed with the federal government farmer's home administration. they wouldn't redo my loans. during the war and reconstruction, people in the south lost everything. well, i can empathize with them. it made me mad, and i could understand why they were mad. and it's been 150 years, and people still mad in the south about it. it is wrong for the federal government to dictate to the states what they should or should not do. and ever since the war, no one's property has been secured. there is a lot of talk of reparations for slaves, you know. my great, great grandfather, nobody paid. abraham lincoln emancipated the slaves. he didn't get paid for them. the war to prevent southern independence changed our country for the worse, in my opinion. >> and what do you think? do you think the war changed the country for the worse? >> i'm trying to process everything. i do understand parts of what my father is speaking on, because i feel that way, that the government is too big and has too much power. it's an invasion. but how long would it take to free the slaves? how long would it have taken for them to realize that slavery is wrong? >> do you think slavery left an imprint on the mind-set of people? >> sure it left an imprint. i'm saying the war left more of an imprint. that's my personal opinion. >> for black and white? >> yes. >> so you feel like the war itself was a bigger aggression than slavery? >> yes. >> it feels like you're dismissing the experience of millions of enslaved people. it feels like you're not seeing what they experienced at the hands of the people who were enslaving them. i mean, how is treating people as property not a greater harm? >> my feelings was that it was legal. it was a settled way of order. they had laws that they had to live up to and forced on them. and treat 'em like civilly. i don't hate james mcgee. i just want our schools and universities to stop teaching our children to hate our southern ancestors. they don't deserve that. ♪♪ oh. 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>> yes, it has a cross and it's red, white and blue with stars going through the cross. >> where have you seen that flag? >> i see it when i'm driving, when i'm traveling. i see it at -- where i live at, i live in the countryside, and the countryside i travel to greenwood, and it's white people back there. there is no black people. and i see a lot of confederate flags that hang off the houses, hang off the mailboxes. i see it on the back of people trucks. >> and what does it make you think? >> grow up. basically. >> in class, you said you were a good public speaker. >> yes, i am. >> what makes you a good speaker? >> my projection, my performance. when i speak, i capture attention. i know that i capture attention. i do oratoricals. i've won first place in five, six oratoricals. that's all of them i've competed in. and i won second place once. yeah. >> i haven't noticed any white kids at this school. are there any white kids at this school? >> no. >> why is that? >> i would say in my personal opinion -- i don't know if this is why, but i would simply say the fact of segregation is how we are here. like it just socially happened, like this is the black kids' school. central holmes is the white kids' school. this is how the neighborhood, how the parents separated everything. >> have you ever had a white friend? >> no. i've never -- i've never been around a white person long enough. i've never had a complete conversation to even become associates. >> do you think that the civil war is relevant to your life? >> i feel that it's relevant because your past, your history is your story. whether or not you know it or not, it's your story. ♪♪ >> these are the 209,445 african americans in the union army that fought in the civil war. they served in every branch in the army. 7 colored cavalry regiment, 13 colored regiments. they looked over each other's family. if you're serving for three years, all you have is your comrades. your left, your left, right. huzzah, your left! your left. your left, your left, your left, right. your left, your left, your left, your left, your left, right. company halt. >> so this is the african american civil war museum. it might have been a museum built to correct a great wrong in history. america has wrote a history about that whole conflict that did not include african americans. these african american soldiers, and they're a great role in ending that war to preserve the nation. >> the war started but president lincoln wouldn't let blacks join the army. once he realized he couldn't win the war without us, well, then the war started to change in lincoln's favor. they were enslaved in the southern states. they literally end up with uniforms on and rifles. if you're thinking i live in a world and it's out of control, there is nothing i can do about it. well, there is something you can do about it. and you can take lessons from these people whose stories we tell here in the museum. i think it's liberating. >> we're making this film about how we tell the story of the civil war. and i think you guys just finished that unit, right? >> yeah. >> what did you think? >> i feel like living in this country is oh, the civil war, you know about it. but when you start to learn about it, there is so many, like, intricate details of why things happened. i think it's important that we learn about it. the one thing that does like not concern me but most people here have the same kinds of political views, which, you know, it's great to be around people who think like you, but at the same time, there's no like real conversation. there is no real dialogue and understanding, like people who have different views than you, which i think is how we can move forward. i think that's important. >> and in order for people to really get your perspective and understand where you're coming from, what's one thing they should know about you? >> right. i mean, the biggest thing for me is gender. try to present as masculinely as i can, but, you know, people still sometimes take me for a girl. and that's like the biggest thing that's kind of hard for me to deal with. yeah. that's probably the big -- that's the biggest one. >> it's like you're not getting fully seen? >> right, yeah. >> reconstruction has been the most contested question in america's historical memory. reconstruction is a period of time that begins immediately after the war, a 10 to 12-year era when america truly had to reinvent itself. 14th amendment puts equal protection of the law into the u.s. constitution. and the right to vote for black men in the 15th amendment was a constitutional and legal revolution. and some black spokesman by the 1890s in the turn of the 20th century would often refer to 1865 as the year zero of a new calendar, a new beginning to history itself. but you have to incorporate the white south into an american union, a society that had just lost approximately 18% of its adult male population in war. how do you reunify those people at the emotional level with the side that is the victor? 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[♪♪] seeing all the places i come from, i know, if it's a serrano it's something to be proud of. give the gift of family heritage with ancestry. a mystery! jessie loves playing detective. but the real mystery was her irritated skin. so, we switched to tide pods free & gentle. it cleans better, and doesn't leave behind irritating residues. and it's gentle on her skin. tide free & gentle is epa safer choice certified. it's got to be tide. we're having our monthly civil war round table. we call us the east bridgewater civil war round table named after the town. >> we sent 300 men from this town. >> i think it was 4. >> closer to 400. >> 50 of them died. >> basis on the meeting tonight, we called it reconstruction, what went right and what went wrong. >> holy mackerel. >> hello, hello. >> what a crowd. we're going to talk about reconstruction, the physical period of time from 1865 to 1877, you know. in the school system we came to reconstruction and the chapter ended on the civil war. >> how are you going to rebuild this part of the country with malice towards none as lincoln's words, how you going to do that? >> no one on the civilian side on the confederate presidency was ever forced to concede and repudiate what they believed. and we allowed a group of people that waged an insurrection against our government to build statues to their heroes. so that has kept it alive. we have never solved the core problem of the civil war. that's why reconstruction didn't have a chance. the north was fighting back and forth during the whole reconstructive period. >> and let's not forget the elephant in the middle of the room. north and south were racists, period. the black was not considered to be a human being. >> good. >> how you doing? >> excuse me have you ever had an african american member of this group? because it struck me in the conversation about race that everyone was white. >> no. >> if you look at the demographics of east bridgewater and the area. >> we're in the 90s, which is an odd thing because we border brockton, which is predominantly i would say minorities. >> minority. >> which are really the majorities now. how do you reach out to say that they're welcome too? i mean, they're welcome. but how do you make them feel that they're welcome. i think here we'd make them feel welcome. how do you do that? yeah, that's a good question. i'll have to think about that. it's the same question as why we live right next to brockton and we don't have a larger population of blacks. >> i live in the town of kingston, and there is not a large population of blacks in the town of kingston. the high school is the fourth or fifth least diversified high school with 1500 kids in it. there are a few families, but why? yet you go into brockton or you go into new bedford or fall river, the cities you tend to find a larger minority community. is it because those minorities feel more comfortable there, you know? i don't know. i don't have the answers. ♪ facing the rising sun of our new day begun ♪ ♪ let us march on till victory is won ♪ >> woo! >> at the end say shadow beneath my hand, may we forever stand, true to our god, true to our native land. these guys were tricky. by native land, who were they talking about? >> us. >> our land. meaning what? what does us mean to you? what was reconstruction? when was it? >> after slavery. >> after slavery, yes. >> after the civil war. >> after the civil war. this is when black people try to teach america how to have a real democracy. during reconstruction, black people were able to vote in the south, and they got in the state legislators and passed laws to say things like everybody should go to school for free. white people too? yeah, white people. you poor white people. this man right here, john langston came out of slavery. he came to d.c. as a congressman from virginia. this man was born into slavery. no question. no problem. it's congressman langston now. that's why i love reconstruction. you have real heroes. are we any different than these people were? >> no. >> no, we're not. you know the difference? we just don't remember. my name is greg carr, and i'm associate professor and chair of afro-american studies here at howard university. >> and what connection do you have to the history of the civil war and reconstruction? >> well, in addition to the direct history, my ancestors having been brought here from north carolina and alabama. no civil war veterans in my direct family, but we were enslaved in alabama. so obviously coming out of the civil war, my family are share croppers, come in the eras of jim crow, great migration moving throughout the south. i'm a living part of that stream of history. and as a professor here at howard university, and particularly in africana studies, which is my field of study and area i work in, i devote a great part of my work understanding the implications of the civil war and reconstruction in terms of contemporary american life. what's this right here? >> deed of sale. >> deed of sale. these are reconstruction rear documents. most people in the country don't know anything about that. you can say we saw the charter, we saw the deed of sale for the land. >> you know, you're the only teacher i've filmed who is focused on the freed people's point of view when teaching reconstruction. how does teaching from that point of view make a difference for your students? >> i hope they will walk out with is a sense of human purpose that they have a stake in. there is always the threat of forgetting in terms of national memory. when you start talking about a settler state like the united states that came out of a settler colony with many different people, there is almost a required forgetting, a violence of forgetting in order to force a type of unity of culture, the unity of national identity. so the work that remains to be done is to recognize our full history. that story will make you so proud of black people. it will also break your heart. 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get the bank of america customized cash rewards card, choose the online shopping category and earn 3% cash back. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. ♪♪ my name is brother rogers. i work at the mississippi department of archives and history. i created a website with the picture of every historical marker in the state. >> have you taken a picture of the clinton riots marker? >> i have taken a picture of that marker. i know exactly where it is, near the railroad track in clinton. >> that's right. and what do you think. tell me what -- what do you know about that marker? >> well, i think that the clinton riot marker is particularly important because there was a riot during reconstruction in the town of clinton that was not in the history books that i read growing up studying mississippi history and the local public schools. reconstruction in america, not just in mississippi, is one of the most overlooked and underappreciated historical eras. and the people who wrote about it afterwards, north and south, wrote about it mainly from a white supremacy point of view, whether they were in ohio and michigan or alabama or mississippi. there was lots of violence throughout america during reconstruction against african americans. it's -- it's a terrible time in our history from that perspective. it was a great time of experimentation with providing the rights of citizenship and political equality to african americans. unfortunately, through the lens of white supremacy, that was too much for a lot of white people to take during that time. >> are there any other markers in mississippi that acknowledge white violence against african-americans? >> the only marker of which i am aware that exists that depicts and talks about white violence against black people during reconstruction is the clinton riot marker. >> in mississippi? >> in mississippi. >> my name is missy jones. my title is a visiting instructor of history at mississippi college. >> how long have you been working on the clinton riots? >> almost 15 years now, if i think back. >> what is this? >> this is johnson milling company. it's been here for ages, but right behind it is the location of the old train depot. and the thought was that we would put the marker for the clinton riot here because of the importance of the train depot. the clinton riots began on september 4th, 1875. and the diorama behind me tells a version of those events. the original train depot is where white paramilitary units flocked into clinton. there was a political rally, and it was one of the first times that african americans had gotten together to really listen to political candidates. and it was organized by the republican party, but there was also a group of white democrats who were sent there to disrupt things. shots rang out. african american families began to flee the scene. even one mother left her child in the hollow of a tree just for protection. and then over the course of the next several days, white liners began to flood into clinton and then systematically round up those who organized the rally and then kill them. sometimes in front of their own families members. >> so this is a group of white democrats killing the black republicans? >> correct. it was the plan of the white democrats to keep african americans from voting. the violence served as a pretext for the return of white rule and the end of reconstruction in mississippi. >> do you feel like people know that this marker exists? >> no, i don't. just given where it is behind this old mill, i feel like it has the potential to look hidden, and that was my fear with placing it here. i would definitely prefer it to be in a more prominent location because this event is by far the most important event that ever took place in the city. the clinton riot has always been one of these contested events. for years and years and years, it's been told as if it was caused by african americans, that they were going to take back the city. accost the women. for essentially 140 years, the history was told incorrectly, and the violence was blamed on the black members of the clinton community. >> my name is james robinson. i'm from here in clinton. lifetime resident, except for a few years. >> i'm deborah. james is my cousin. >> this picture here, my grandmother's grandmother. she was caught in the proximity of the clinton riot. and in order to save her child, she hid the child in a tree. and then after the skirmish was over, then she went back and got the child. as the article says, old clinton history told from tales by ex-slave. this was published in the newspaper in 1961. >> as far as the black citizens in clinton, you don't hear a lot about our history. a lot of times i think our elders have tended to just discuss things among themselves as opposed to bring it to the forefront. because it can stir up a lot of emotions. >> and what's the result of stirring up emotions? >> you get a lot of good and you get some bad. >> what's the bad? >> the fact that somebody could vandalize if you put up anything. >> i just hope that that doesn't happen in clinton. there is still a lot of racist attitudes. >> there are some that -- and i'm thinking about missy. when i first met missy, she said, the first word that came out of her mouth was "nigger." and her parents were so proud of her when she said that word because that myth you knew you were superior to somebody else. >> you've been so dedicated. so long. you've dedicated so much care and time and effort to this. why do you care about this? >> i'm going to get emotional, but i grew up in a family in mississippi. my dad was from new york. my mom's family was from south mississippi. 90% white, 10% black. still segregated in the ways in which people in the communities live. but i was raised in a racist family, racist community at the time in which i grew up. things have changed in a good bit now, but for me i think i didn't want to repeat that. i feel a responsibility with the profession that i've chosen to tell things accurately and to not repeat generational incorrectness with my own family. i want to do something different. pumpkin too. same goes for your fall vaccinations. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu this season, but don't forget to get an updated covid-19 shot, too. type 2 diabetes? 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ask about the power of 3 with ozempic®. did you know most dish soaps don't remove all the grease, even with scrubbing? whaaat? i just cleaned those. try dawn platinum. it removes 99% of grease and food residue. that's why dawn is trusted to save wildlife affected by oil. dawn platinum cleans to the squeak. why are you passionate about this project? just like what drives you with making this documentary? >> i didn't start as passionate. i started as curious. >> yeah. >> and i had the sense that there was something missing that i hadn't been taught. and it's only through the making of this film that i really have come to see the past story was totally white. it used to that white supremacy means a bunch of guys in white robes. but it really means not even recognizing that we're only telling white stories. >> during the reconstruction era, there is fear all over the place. white fear of those black majority populations if they really vote was colossal. so many white southerners saw this idea of black people serving on jurors or black people owning land as an intolerable revolution. and it necessitated a counterrevolution, even if it necessitated the use of terrorist violence. the lost cause tradition was a response to that tremendous fear. we like to go to bed at night believing our society is in social order. i don't have to worry about my child tomorrow being confronted by totally unusual and repugnant ideas or totally unusual and repugnant people. i'm safe by the history i know. so the lost cause tradition that southerners developed the story for their explanation of their defeat became ultimately a victory narrative. a victory over reconstruction. and they crushed the very idea of slavery as the central cause and the very idea of emancipation of four million slaves as a central result of the civil war. you begin to see wide scale even official efforts to crush what we might call black memory. >> if we throw away our confederate flag, we throw away the history of south carolina and of the united states. >> we are true southerners, i guess. to me it's a flag for everybody, black and white representing our heritage. i can understand to some degree how they would have been upset years ago, but that's been 130 years ago now. to me it's our flag. >> go home! [ chanting ] >> white only! no black. send them home. >> breaking news. a horrific scene in charlottesville, virginia. a white nationalist rally that descended into deadly violence and chaos. >> since the city voted to remove the robert e. lee statue, there have been protests, and now violence. >> come here. who are you? >> i am stephanie roth, and i'm assistant professor of history in jackson, mississippi. the images that we're seeing on our computers and on our phones and on television, you can't divorce this from the need to return to some sort of innocent past. >> like the old south? >> yes. >> what is the old south? >> after the civil war, the old south myth is this mythologized place of big plantation houses with corinthian columns and mint juleps and hoop skirts and southern gentlemen and happy slaves. everyone is well taken care of. some people are owned by other people, but everyone is well fed, well clothed, loved and appreciated. and that is not -- this is why something like this would appeal to white northerners, because that's not the environment that they lived in. >> it's really a story about the merits of white supremacy. you know, i filmed with another historian who said it was really white supremacy that helped the north and the south reunify after the war. do you think that's true? >> i fully believe that when we're talking even across the spectrum from the coming of the civil war to the prosecution of it and the aftermath, i think it's a much more productive approach to describe and understand white supremacy than it is to even talk about slavery. slavery doesn't survive. but white supremacy does. the war ends. reconciliation has been achieved. what happens unexpectedly is that in that reconciliation the nation itself embraces the confederacy. and the memory of the confederacy. this is why by the time you get to the 1930s, people from all over the country are coming to places like natchez, mississippi to tour antebellum homes and to see women in hoop skirts and people dressed up as enslaved persons. this is a vacation for them. can you think of a cultural footprint of this today, where the south gets sort of fetishized? >> grades second through fifth, we used to go every year to the destry plantation. >> and what does that tour include? >> it included a tour of the plantation. they also had a little show put on. people dressed up and stuff. and they sang songs, played music. it was like -- it was almost like a little party. >> are the tours in any way engaging enslavement? >> they don't really talk about the slavery part. you want to have a good time. i used to look forward to going to the plantation. it was a big deal. >> i mean, can we even think about these plantations as spaces of violence? we think about things like confederate monuments or symbols and flags, all of these remembrances are in white visions. those are renewals of white supremacy. and in my mind, keeping that confederate battle flag in the top left corner of mississippi state flag is a way to keep that narrative alive, and it's threatening because if we lose it, what happens to our memory? i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm feeling this moment. along with clearer skin skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement-and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today. learn how abbvie could help you save. the new subway mvp rewards earns you points for every order. this mvp uses it for free subs. you can use your points for anything. like free cookies. whoa, peyton. what — i'm not playing anymore. join now and get a free cookie when you buy a sub. 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(vo) black friday starts now. turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. my name is william shirley. i serve in the mississippi house of representatives for district 84. about 16,000 people in the whole county. everybody knows everybody. you get a speeding ticket, everybody knows. i'm not here to argue the design of the flag. that is not my intent. some universities took the flag down. if you're receiving state dollars and you're a public university, then you should display whatever that symbol is. >> and do you think this is an issue that matters to the people in your district? >> yes, ma'am. >> why? >> i just think it's a heritage. it's a history. there is a big movement to remove confederate history. well, it's part of history. you know? where and when is enough? >> do you feel like slavery was something that was in the past, let's move on? or do you feel like slavery still has an effect today? >> it's over and it is part of history. it's part of the past. i don't know of a person that owns a slave or has been a slave to this day. i think we're going to make it a major issue as long as we keep rubbing it in from the standpoint of the minority saying well, we were slaves and mistreated. i understand that. what the hell do you want me to do about it? i'm sorry. i wasn't there. i'm 50 years old. i wasn't there. >> and what do you say to historically black universities that say we're not going to fly this flag because it's a symbol of slavery? do you think about their point of view? >> it is the state flag of mississippi. >> but if they say it actually hurts us, it deeply offends us. it represents something that gives us pain. what do you say to that? >> i don't see the pain in the symbol. ♪♪ >> new orleans is just the latest city to start taking down historical but controversial monuments that many say celebrate slavery and the confederacy. >> white supremacy. >> let's go! >> when? >> now. >> now! >> when? >> now! >> all right, all right. >> we're here to celebrate the taking down of the jefferson davis statue here in new orleans center. these were all jim crow era statues meant to emphasize that white people were in control. >> is there any value? >> there is no value in keeping those statues. there is value in remembering what these statues were put up for. >> what do you say to the people across the street who are marching with flags -- >> i don't say nothing to the people across the street. they are not on my radar. they're unredeemable as far as i'm concerned. >> we pray, oh, lord, that those who are attacking our heritage may repent of their sins. we pray, oh, lord, that the truth of history will triumph. >> i feel like the country never reunified after the war with all of its citizens, right? maybe taking down these statues now could help us reunify. >> but don't try to take away history just because you don't agree with it. if you really study history, you'll see it was more than just slavery. there was taxation issues. >> hold on. is he putting on a bulletproof vest? >> probably. >> why? >> because they were firing paintball at these guys the other night. sounds harmless, but who's to say that they don't try something more? a lot of these people are from out of town. >> these are visitors from out of town who are confederate supporters, and they come here to occupy our city for a couple of weeks and stand their grounds and all that good stuff. >> isn't the goal to have more people feel represented? don't we need to listen to each other? they say the statue is a source of southern pride. >> fuck the south. fuck southern pride. african americans' history, bloodlines, cultures, family for hundreds of years by way of this thing that they're upholding. so if you can't balance that in your mind, then i can't do anything for your lack of an iq or common sense. i'm sorry. >> it's not about race. this has never been about race. i feel like we're having our history stolen from us. this was our only confederate president. he died here. >> you don't need to have that in a diverse neighborhood. >> how is inanimate object like a symbol affecting you greatly -- ♪ get the fuck out of new orleans, get the fuck out of new orleans ♪ ♪♪ >> dear god and heavenly father we thank you for your love and your grace and your mercy, and please, bless us during the coming hour as we pay homage to our ancestors, the 15,265 souls that gave their life to defend the great state of mississippi. for christ's sake, amen. our next speaker is someone that i really appreciate, and he's got backbone. that's the kind of people we need, people that stand up. and mr. william shirley of clarke county, would you come say a few words? give him a hand. [ applause ] >> the flag means a whole lot to me. you're not going to take the damn flag down with my vote. so i'm going to do all i can, and i suggest you find your legislator and make your ear known to him or her because we all in the mississippi house are going to get to vote on them amendments again and again and again. and they going to get tired of seeing me. and they're going to try to get somebody to replace people like me that just don't go around with yassuh, boss man. if you take state dollars, you fly the flag of the state of mississippi thank you, all. >> our mississippi senator mack daniel come speak. [ applause ] >> political correctness is an incredibly dangerous doctrine. it's anti-intellectual. it's anti-dissent. it demands conformity. do you believe they'll stop with a monument? do you believe they'll stop with a pattern or design on a flag? they ridicule our traditions. they mock us. they laugh at us. you feel like you're losing your country, don't you? you feel marginalized. you're scared. mississippi has to stand. we have nothing else to surrender. we are those warriors, men and women of the soil. stubborn, courageous. we stand here on the edge of history, ready to push back one more time. help's not coming from california. it's not coming from massachusetts. it has to be you. what are you going to do about it? (ella) fashion moves fast. (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (jen) that's enterprise intelligence. 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ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. abbvie could help you save. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist and ask about attr-cm. how would you like to see uncle billy dance? ♪♪ >> at the end of the day, historical memory is always about who is controlling the story. and you got to do it in a society that has this horrible problem with racism, with theorys of race that most white americans north or south still share. by the 1890s in the north, there is a tremendous fear of a world that seems to be floating into disorder and these teeming new cities full of these immigrants speaking unusual languages. maybe the race question should just be left to the south. they've always known how to handle the race question. at the same time, there will be over 9 million african americans mostly in the south. there is no longer the slavery system that kept us all contained. white southerners need to keep this burgeoning black population on the land as laborers, not engaging in educational advancement. they need a new system to keep them there. the solution in the south was a system of jim crow laws. everything from schooling to voting to transportation, public accommodation, every element of life is now going to be segregated. lots of white americans, north or south, can unify around segregation as a way to keep society and social order. the way in which this culture became within the first half century after the war an american north/south reunion without racial justice left a deep set of legacies we are of course still struggling with, and every time we think we have so much of this put aside, we suddenly are reminded that we don't. the only way today we'll see a new more inclusive reunion of americans is if there is a coalition of interest that stops looking only at their own individual interests and sees themselves in these four or five issues and sees themselves in other people. okay. >> we're just going to record this. and then if you could change the frame too. there you go. if i were going to make a movie about you, what do you want me to make sure that i include? >> i want you to show, like, the great things that i'm capable of. yeah, i'm -- if i say something, do say so myself, i'm a great football player, but almost smart in the classroom. try -- try -- i'm just trying to be great in life. i'm trying to make something of my life, i'm trying to be successful. >> to be honest with you, what i been through. because there are people who just look at the good things, look at the good things. but i'd rather you see what the negativity was so it's like it counteracts. it's like here is the bad but here where i am, i'm good now. i'm in a good zone. you know what i'm saying? it's more like i rather you not just tell half of my story. i'd rather you tell the whole story. >> there is this one word a teacher once described me as, yeah, i think it was sympathetic. i thought she called me pathetic when she said it. >> it might have been empathetic. >> yeah. at the end of the day, we all have feelings. we all have a history that nobody else knows about. and, yeah. >> i was certainly not taught this way in my high school. >> neither was i. >> so i'm always shocked when i find students of a certain age who haven't seen "gone with the wind." and i point to it, you need to watch that film, it's the most watched movie of all time. people are eating this stuff up. there is a real reason why people have weddings on plantations, right? you would never go to auschwitz and let's get married. you would never do that. but we have so made black pain and suffering like a place of our enjoyment, a place that feels good to us, a place that feels familiar to us that we don't pay attention to the suffering. we don't pay attention to why it's problematic. >> i know you talked about the force in your presentation. but how do you define freedom for yourself? >> i have been conditioned to think of emancipation as an ending point. so i realize that freedom was not just like liberation. freedom was like owning your humanity, operating your full humanity, being recognized for your full humanity. i think that the spirit of slavery that i talked about before that makes color a mark of degradation is still very much with us, and i think for too long, the onus of racism has been put on people of color to solve when this is not really like a people of color issue. this is a white supremacist issue where white people need to talk to other white people about how they can overcome these issues. white allies today have to take a very radical stance if that they can't just put up the bumper sticker black lives matter. are you going to allow your child to be one of the few whites in an all black school? you going to invest in that school, making sure not just your child, but every child in that community gets a fair shake to balance like this great injustice that's taken place for hundreds of years. it requires sacrifice. i don't know what that will look like exactly for you or for each person it's different, i think. alka-seltzer plus powermax gels cold & flu relief with more concentrated power because the only thing dripping should be your style. plop plop fizz fizz winter warriors with alka-seltzer plus. this is pleasant gardens. this was where most of the african americans in city were buried. it was in operation from 1891 through 1970. but one day i saw in the paper an article about an abandoned cemetery. so i thought i can't believe that there is a place here that's so rich with history and i didn't know about it. and so i used the map on the front of the newspaper and drove over to the cemetery and found this beautiful place, and immediately felt the need to organize some community cleanups to bring attention to it. many of the african americans that are buried here were not slaves. and so they could be buried and recognized in different ways, but there is a very interesting cemetery called beck knob cemetery that's located on the north side of town, and it was a slave cemetery. and when you look at how overgrown it is, it's almost sad that you can almost drive past it and not even know it. >> would you take us there? >> yeah, i can take you there, but i don't know how much you'll be able to see because it's really overgrown. >> wow. i knew i wasn't crazy. look how close this line is to that. ♪♪ >> what has been the most important story that you've talked about in history class so far this year? >> well, slavery was bad. we should still feel guilty because it's something that happened. >> but we interviewed a kid from estonia, and he has white skin, and his family wasn't even here. should he feel guilty about it? >> well, if he's living in our country now, then i think he should feel a little guilt because it's still part of his -- it's still part of his history because now he is part of our country. and he should feel a little guilt, i think. >> is guilt useful? >> yes. >> tell me why. >> because it helps us understand that what we did was wrong and we shouldn't go back to doing it. and we should fix our ways so we can do better in the future. >> i personally, like, slavery is morally wrong. you shouldn't own other people. that's not something that should happen. but i see -- i see the reasoning behind it, and i can understand it and not accept it, but i see like behind it, i guess. >> i think a lot depends on who's eyes you're looking through, right? are we talking about an all white point of view or a black point of view. a lot depends on who you are, i think. >> i want to know what was your perspective of the whole slavery situation, how you feel like because you know being raised in, how do you feel like when people -- >> i feel like it was wrong. i feel like it was deeply wrong. but i also feel like i never learned about slavery as a white story. i mean, with people around me, we never talk about slavery as something white people did and benefitted from, you know? it was always just presented as something that just happened. >> i want to introduce ibram kendi. ibrahim, you argue that the threat of racism is more prominent now than in the past. >> as president lincoln said the nation will become all one or all the other, meaning slavery or anti-slavery, i think it's the same thing for racism and anti-racism. >> if we see america's history as steady racial progress that we have now reached the mountaintop. racism is no longer critical and important, we're also seeing the cause of racial inequities today is not racism, because we've moved beyond racism. it's inferiority of particular people that are not working hard enough. there is a racist idea that is still very prominent within the community of people who consider themselves liberal, even progressive or even radical. the oppression inferiority thesis. first it was slavery making black people into brutes. right now it's poverty. this idea that racism itself or discrimination wasn't just sort of harming people, but it was literally leading to inferior behaviors. have fun, sis! ♪♪ can't stop adding stuff to your cart? 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do you think about that ever? >> i want them to think that i'm an intelligent girl and i'm not bad. i'm actually very good, and i'm smart. >> what makes you good? >> that i follow directions -- well, sometimes. >> what else? >> i want them to think that i'm not ugly. >> it seems to me that one of the major challenges for you as a history teacher would be teaching in a way that connects with such a diverse student body. >> yes, yeah. it is. >> boston latin is kind of like the nation in miniature, because it is so big. and it did start as a segregated all male institution. >> yeah. it's the oldest school in the country. it was founded in 1635 by a portion of the population of boston, england. it was all male. it was all white. it was all people of privilege. >> you know, i've really come to believe that part of the purpose of history is to tell a story that unites us. >> yeah. >> but in order for that story to work, we have to see ourselves as being in the same boat to begin with. >> yep. >> we have to see ourselves as connected to other people. >> i really agree. >> so in your class today, how do you tell a story that helps these kids see themselves as connected to all the diverse people that surround them? >> well, it's important to talk about race and the history. and i want kids to understand that where we are today has its roots in the past, but it's really hard to convey the full scope of the way the history of this country plays out today. and i think it's really difficult to talk about race. how do you actually help kids to be different than us, our generation who doesn't really know how to do this very well? the only way you do that is by having them do it. >> okay. i want to know what went into place after reconstruction. look at integration of schools. fair treatment by juries. those are the kinds of things. how are we doing now? we'll put the school segregation folks in that corner. we'll put the jury selection folks in the back corner. >> with the black voting rights, i found that the 15th amendment, it gave african american males the right to vote, but they kept finding loopholes to keep them from voting. and today 13% are prohibited from voting because they have served in prison. >> yeah. >> okay. well, i guess i'll say -- i think we're running out of time. but i just think talking about this is really not helpful, because -- i mean, what it does -- >> sit still. >> it puts people in an unproductive mindset is it makes white people feel guilty and it makes black people feel like victims. >> don't go anywhere. and i want to know what people want to say back to that, because i think it's important that you have a chance to say something. so i'm going to go with andriana first. >> if you're treated differently because of something you can't change, why wouldn't you be a victim? you don't have to talk about something to feel a certain way. yes. >> i see all these hands. and we had a bell, and i'm so sorry that we're going to have to stop this, but we will pick this up. look, right where you are, see your hands in the air? put your hands in the air. this is where we start tomorrow. >> how did you feel about the conversation in section 41 today? >> terrified. >> the idea i wanted to dismantle is that there is a system in place like that like benefits white people and like has a negative effect on black people. >> i don't want to squash this child. he's bringing sincere, you know, and rigorous -- i think the word he used was logic. he's thinking about it logically. and logic says that there has to be a reason for that. but he doesn't have an answer when i say, you know, so what might be the reason if you think it is not systemic racism that has caused this, what is the reason. and he says i don't know. >> you shouldn't have something to blame your problems on. and i don't think that that is a good thing. asian-americans here, they have a hard time, but they still succeed. >> that is going to be continued tomorrow and i've got to spend my time thinking tonight what am i going to say that respects how hard this kid is thinking about these things which is exactly what i want him to do and still push back a little bit and say, you though, so i think that you are missing some of the picture here. in a really important way. y imp. that's why herbal essences is packed with naturally derived plant ingredients you love, and none of the stuff you don't. our sulfate-free collections smell incredible... ♪ and leave your hair touchably soft and smooth. ♪ herbal essences students... students of any age, from anywhere. using our technology to power different ways of learning. so when minds grow, opportunities follow. ♪ (carolers ♪ iphone 15 pro, your husband deserves it! ♪ (mom) carolers? 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(vo) black friday starts now. turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. i gave you this document with the jim crow era which was written by michelle alexander. so as you read through that, i want you to think how did they create a lower class based on race after reconstruction. >> black people in prison, they auctioned off the prisoners to like the highest bidder. >> there was a loophole about slavery in the 13th amendment. did anyone catch that? >> yeah, it was fit as a punishment for a crime. >> what she's trying to say is that the criminal justice system is literally like the same thing as jim crow. >> i think new iteration of it, that is what we're trying to look at, the ways that that is still with us. >> that is assuming that jim crow -- >> has a presence today? >> yeah, that is your assumption. asian-americans have to get like 400 s.a.t. points higher than black people to get in college. your mind is so closed off to certain ideas. >> we'll continue. i love that you hang in there. >> they are not willing to consider certain ideas because they have been taught -- >> is the certain idea that you are really suggesting that asians are better than black people? that is not what you are really saying, is it? >> i'm not saying that they are inherently better. i'm just saying their situation is better. >> but what would you attribute that to? >> higher income. higher representation in colleges. and in -- >> why do you think they have that and why do you think black people don't? >> i don't know. i mean, asians are discriminated much more in those areas because -- >> than black people? >> yes. >> we'll agree tos disagree on that point, but we'll come back to it. >> okay. well, i hope you look in to that. >> i will look into it. good. thank you. it is a revelation to me that presenting no matter how much information you present, sometimes people are going to hear it the way they want to hear it. and they are not going to budge, at least not yet he's not. but that is exactly what you are in for when you open the door to having these kinds of conversations. that is what is hard to navigate. >> we're celebrating confederate heros day. a texas state holiday, celebrate it 19th of january every year. >> the bill was filed by a representative from pensacola, it says that memorial can't be moved inside it needs to be refurbished. >> this monument right here outside the old courthouse was given to the county by the daughters of the confederacy back in the early 1900s. >> i'm in favor of the statue staying. a lot of ancestors of mine have fought and died. and they didn't die for slavery. they had no slaves. >> it always starts with seeing the monuments, but it is also about being in this black body. what does that feel like to have your country, your nation say this is what we stand by. no. we want more. we demand more. we say yes to something that looks like us. we say yes to inclusivity. we say yes to broader notion of what it means to be an american. ♪♪ ♪♪

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