>> go, go, go! >> inside the building, pezzola and a group of rioters came within sight of senator joe grassley, then third in line to the presidency, as he was evacuated from the senate. pezzola also found himself in the capital, smoking what he called a victory cigar, though that did not turn out. pezzola was actually the third proud boys to be sentenced. yesterday, judge timothy kelly handed down a 15 year sentence to zachary rehl, who led 200 people to the capitol on january six, and 17 years for joseph biggs, who as a prosecutor described as the tip of the spear throughout the attack. this afternoon, he also sentenced ethan nordean, the former president of the seattle chapter to 18 years. they received longer sentences because they were convicted of the rare and serious charge of seditious conspiracy. dominic pezzola was the only one to be acquitted on that charge. today, in front of judge kelly, pezzola expressed remorse, calling his actions the most regrettable decision of his life. he was also seen wiping away tears while his wife and mother spoke to the court, pleading for mercy on his behalf. after the judge announced the ten year sentence, as he is being let out of the courtroom, pezzola turned to the gallery, raised a fist and shouted, quote, trump won. now, so far, all of the sentences from the members of the proud boys have represented significant downward departures from the federal sentencing guidelines and the government's request. prosecutors asked for 33 years from joseph biggs, 30 for zachary rehl, 27 from ethan nordean and 24 for dominic pezzola. they each received less than that. and as i've said before, i am generally in favor of lower sentences. i think this is something to get wrong in the country. prison sentences and the u.s. are much more severe than our peers, averaging twice as long as the next country, which is hungary. i also have to say, as the january six cases pileup, it's becoming clear that we live in a country with a two tier system of justice, and it's enraging. on january six, 2021, dozens of people descended on the capitol. a violent attack broadcasted live on television. there are just a handful of arrests that day. nearly all those people left freely. they went home. now, to their credit, the doj launched a massive investigation, charging more than 8000 rioters. the vast majority of them have not been in jail while they await trial. that itself is not the norm. let's be clear, studies show that 75% of people charged in federal court are detained pretrial, many because they cannot afford bill. and yet, there are some that -- some of the jailed january six defendants and their allies have loudly complained about the conditions of their detention. the conditions in american jails are awful. that is true. it is true for everyone who goes there. most of the time, marjorie taylor greene and donald trump don't really care much about it. take the fulton county jail, for example, where donald trump briefly stopped in last week, holed up in a giant motor gate, precondition bond agreement, spent a total of about 20 minutes inside. ever since, he has been whining about how humiliating it was to have his mugshot taken. of course, much worse things happen in that jail, for people that go there for things that are to my mind, must less serious than trying to overthrow democracy. 23 people have died while in custody at the fulton county jail in a little over three years. just last week, listen to this, a 34-year-old inmate was found dead days after he sent a desperate letter to federal court about his treatment at the jail. this week, this week, one detainee was killed, two other injured in multiple stabbings. there is an ongoing doj civil rights investigation into the jails conditions. the place is a human rights disaster. that is the context to remember when people like donald trump complain about being persecuted are treated unfairly. 18 of the 19 codefendants and the fulton county election case have not stepped foot in a cell. we should note that the one person who did, the only black man charged, harrison floyd. he was detained for five days after hearing him self without a lawyer and without negotiating a bond agreement ahead of time. he was not a recent arrest on his record for allegedly charging an fbi agent who served him with a grand jury subpoena earlier this year. so as we all watched the legal maneuvering of these defendants, as we analyzed it, dissect it, they are exercising the due process that they're entitled to by the u.s. constitution. we just have to remember that their experience, the experience we're watching play out is completely and totally removed from the actual day-to-day reality of how the american criminal justice system works. the vast majority of defendants in the country are not running around, filing motions and selling t-shirts with block shots on them. they are sitting in jail, jails often dangerous, but they may get a few visits from the public defender before they go and plead guilty. that is how the system works. what donald trump and his codefendants, including the proud boys have experience can only be described as the white glove five star top tier version of the american justice system. and they still say that they're being unfairly persecuted, and they are still largely undeterred. that is clear as donald trump continues flying around and his private jet. his former lawyer keeps making tv appearances. it's clear from the behavior of dominic pezzola in court today, where he stood up and called himself an old man, received a ten year sentence, significantly less than what prosecutors asked for. when the judge left the room, dominic pezzola turned to the gallery and yelled, trump won. i am not sure that the lesson is really getting through. ryan reilly is a justice reporter for nbc news, he was at the courthouse for the sentencing of the province today, he joins me now. tell us what you saw at the court house today. >> it is really interesting when you have the defendants come forward because a lot of cases, i think you might have judges who feel like they get stiffer. you feel like you have a sense of remorse from a lot of the defendants, they come forward in this case, family members came forward for dominic pezzola, his wife, and his wife referred to him both in testimony during the proud boys trial and today in sentencing today as a effing idiot. and then he pulls a move like this shortly after the sentence. previously, during her testimony, she said that dominic pezzola got into this because he was drinking too much at night and watching too much fox news. that's what all led up to this. but it is really remarkable when you get to this point, because you have a lot of defendants to go one way, express regret and go another way. there is a distinction between people who say that they are fully fooled and people who tapped dance are on this idea -- who ultimately still support trump or people who actually realize that, okay, i got tricked by this. i bought it hook, line and sinker, which defendants talked about. on the other hand, are they just playing to the judge? it's tough to determine where they ultimately fall. these are significant sentences. even though it is half of what prosecutors wanted in this case, it is a lot of time. it will not be out until somewhere in the late 2030's, even if you give them credit for a good time and the 85% of this and said they have to serve on the federal level. he's not going to be out anytime soon, neither of the defendants will. all four of them have been sentenced thus far this week are going to be out anytime soon, but it's definitely interesting to figure out where exactly they fall, when they talk about remorse. >> it seems like there has been two categories that kind of -- i was hoodwinked, lied to, felt trapped. and then there were people who essentially, at least during their trials or afterwards, sort of predicted themselves as a political prisoner. i am proud of what i did, this is all rigged, this is the deep state persecuting me. no one quite said that at their sentencing here, right? >> yeah, so brandon -- this week, another defendant, the guy who had the deerhead smoking marijuana. he is in the category of people not apologetic at all. he was ultimately convicted, and then he was talking about this evening, he sat on the senator seat that he set on, senator murphy's hideaway office, which was very comfy. he defended have a full spectrum, and he went on to be held in contempt of court because he referred to it as a kangaroo court and not sorry court, health and contempt. it's really a full spectrum of how they were handling this. that someone who has one of the few defendants who, as you mentioned, was held pretrial, not because of the actual conduct that he was accused of, but because he had no respect for the court of law and blowing off the hearings and threatening's probation officer. there are spectrums of where people fall in terms of why they are being held pretrial. >> ryan reilly, thank you very much. elie mystal, the justice correspondent for the nation, paul butler, a professor at the georgetown university law center. they both join me now. paul, let me start with you, as someone who has seen this from different sides and are in, really incredibly eloquently about being a prosecutor, about the way that the criminal justice system works and can't work. i am curious about your reaction to these sentences and then, the impossible to ignore difference between diversion of law that we're seeing here and what it looks like every day in americas criminal courts. >> january six is cast equal justice under a law in a harsh light, but the good news is that we see prosecutor step up, jack smith and fani willis. the d. c. -- chart 2000 people would generate six related crimes by the end of the ear. when it comes to judges and sentencing, that is when the white privilege kicks back in. the white privilege of even convicted criminals. even though the fbi has named domestic terrorism as the number one threat to security in the united states, and judges are still set seeing not below what prosecutors are asking but below the federal sentencing guidelines. i used to say that if you go to criminal court in d. c., you would think that white people don't commit crimes. you would think that white people don't steal, don't get into fights, don't use drugs, but now, even when white defendants are present in d. c. in large numbers because of january six, it's almost like the judges have cognitive dissonance. i am all for compassion and second chances, except one day are allocated by race. >> it's a good point. there's an other point to this, for me. i was think about the role that law and order place and how people understand the criminal justice system. i've watched hours and hours of it in my life. you get the sense that there are detectives, people gathering evidence and lots of interviews, a big trial. that is a small part of the system. that does happen, but a huge part of the pyramid is just people getting run through on violating a warrant, had an open warrant. now they are back in, then they get a day, they go away for two years, they plea. i feel like this drama or watching is doing to kind of law and order version where it is like completely removed from the reality of the actual working of the american criminal justice system. >> the biggest lie about the criminal justice system that you see, the law and order that you see in the generous six trials, is the idea that everybody as a competent defense attorney. i am so glad that you brought up harrison ford, the one back man of the conspirators who actual to jail. he's been on twitter saying, i am being charge because i am a knee grow speaking up a pop kick, it's a wake up call. no, you are in jail because he did not have a lawyer. the white folks that you think are your friends, they got lawyers, and that is what they did not have to spend five days in the jail like you did. that is the thing, the proud boys, the defendants, chris, i would not wish being a black criminal defendant on my worst enemy, sam alito, right? we don't want white people to be treated like black people. i want black people to be treated like white people. and to get their, it's a fundamental thing that we need is free, available and competent legal defense services. that is what the proud boys have gotten, and that is why they are giving light sentences. it's because they have good lawyers working for them. >> i am so glad you said it, because it is a strong position of. mind you want to level up, not down in the criminal justice system. there are 35 defendants total in mississippi. that is what is happening here. again, what we are seeing, and trump is at the apex of this. paul, what we are seeing is, the constitution is a beautiful thing, and they think that it provides for when they actually function, when you have to process, and when your mark meadows and can file a lawyer, and say, i think this case should be removed from federal court. let's have a hearing. all these things happening, yeah, this is kind of the system working, it's just so far away from what it usually does. >> yeah, so there's a theory and then there is -- and we are seeing a lot of january six folks get the benefit of the theory, and black folks and brown folks get the benefit of the practice. this week, donald trump made it clear that he did not want to come to the arraignment. he rather be at mar-a-lago, bedminster or fifth avenue. he probably thought that the criminal court women in fulton county was just for poor people or black people. fani willis had to show him otherwise. he told cops, you don't let there be too careful when you are arresting people. they are putting them in a squad car, that is okay. in georgia, republicans did not have any problems with these states very expensive law, when it was being used to prosecute young black man for gang activity. but one it is applied to 19 mainly white people for trying to overturn the election. that is when they have the call to lie about to tears of justice. chris, yeah, they are about the two tiers, but they are wrong about who is on the bottom. that is still black and brown people and poor people. rudy giuliani says he's broke. he says he can't afford a defense. chris, he's got a apartment on the market in your city today for almost $7 million. there are hundreds of thousands of people with federal or state jails right now, all over the country. they are locked up not because they're guilty but because they're poor. >> and, ali, this is why i come back around. it is actually important that this is being done. i do think that we all share the sting about wanting it to be at the most rigorous level process. this should be the dotted eyes and crossed t's. i think so far, if you look at fani willis, look at how jack smith conducted himself, particularly in that federal case, that is what we're getting so far, so good. what do you think? >> i think that is right. i think that we need trump and his various coconspirators to be given the highest level of the process, so when, if most likely, they are convicted for their horrible crimes, we have confidence in the system afforded them every opportunity. to bring it back around to the things that we talk about, i also -- i know paul has a specially written very powerfully about this, i also put the responsibility back on us, back on the average citizen, back on a person who sits on a jury. if you have the opportunity, the honor to do jury service, and you see one of these people being railroad by the system without a competent defense, without the ability to hire good lawyers, you have the right as a juror, what is called jury for the nullification. you have the ability as a citizen to do your own protests, own little part to stop somebody's convictions from happening, and i just argued that we should always remember the power that the citizens have to try to reform the criminal justice system from the ground up. >> elie mystal and paul butler, thank you both, gentlemen. coming up, as his most devoted follower faces years and years and decades in prison time, the disgraced ex president as a very different priority, moving merch. that is next. eroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other allergy sprays take hours. with astepro's unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go! so i didn't think i needed swiffer, until, i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it! only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick, for amazing trap & lock. even for his hair. wow. and for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked. you'll love swiffer. or your money back! your best 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today following the conviction for seditious conspiracy and other charges related earlier this year. that's related to fellow proud boys dominic pezzola, sentenced to ten years today. yesterday, to other proud boys got double digit sentences. meanwhile, the man at the head of the conspiracy to overturn the election, the guy who has already surrendered in new york, florida, washington d. c. and georgia, is trying to squeeze some bucks with some t-shirts with a mugshot on front. >> is there anyone on the planet that does not know what i look like? i wish that there were people without, that would be nice for me. yet, for some reason, the communists, democrats in atlanta made a mugshot of me, that is a mugshot. i want to thank you for your tremendous support and here is, everyone. if you want to go out and get it, you can go out and get it. have fun with it, but people do like it, i must say, thank you very much. >> nancy gertner is the former new york district judge, now a law school professor. catherine christian is a prosecutor in the manhattan district attorney's office, and they both join me. >> nancy, i want to start with you. talking to a former federal judge about all of this. i want to start with the sentencing. it's a huge part of what federal judges do. there was a lot of, if i am not mistaken, a whole lot of litigation over the guidelines and equity and a redoing of them. you have to justify departures from the gotten's, it's too complex to get your head around. but how do you think as a judge about sentencing and about what are called downward departures, where you will make the extraordinary step to sort of say, the law calls for this, i am going to say, that they will get less. >> that's a big topic i am writing a book about. >> there, you go. >> i mean, i think, ordinarily, before there are guidelines, it made sense for a judge to prepare the person in front of him like the people who did the crime. in other words, it was a continuing of the crime. if you had someone at the higher and, then that person would reasonably get a higher sense. someone at the lower and gets a lower sentence. the federal sentencing guidelines tried to quantify them, but in my view, they did not do so very well. now, the guidelines are advisory. what happened today is that the judge has calculated the guidelines, which is aaron, abstract computation, which really in most cases that i've seen had no relation to the reality of the case. it calculates the guidelines and the big bump here is what was called the terrorism and hands mint. in other words, these guys were not ordinary demonstrators, that they were intending to use the demonstration wherever it went to block the certification of the election. they had in mind more than just i will have a nice yell. they had in mind particular issues that flew under the terrorism enhancement. that kicked up the potential sense to a very high level for all of them. the judge in an interesting decision says, yes, it kicked up, but i am not going to give the government what it wants because, in fact, unlike other terrorism events, which are mass casualty events, or potential mass casualty events, this was not one of them. while the sentences were higher than anyone else, relative to other terrorism enhancements, it was lower. quickly, 15 to 18 months, 15 to 18 years, rather. it is a relative determination. >> that seems actually possible. there was awful violence and death on that day, but there was not a mass shooting or detonation of explosive device. catherine, i want to ask you about that moment, and i am sure that you have seen all kinds of things in the courtrooms over the years. but the coming before the judge, tears in the eyes, i am so sorry, worst day of my life, since comes down, trump won. does that have been a lot? is this taking the mask off at the end? >> no, it's usually one or the other. you're crying as you are that away, or you are defiant till the end, not a sudden flip. he received ten years, so he can take for ten years about whether or not trump had really won. i've never seen it that way. if you see one extreme or the other. >> i want to talk to you. this trial, we're standing here in what is it, september, august, something like that. >> september 1st. i can answer that. >> september 1st, it's one of those. september 1st, 2023. obviously, this happened january six, 2021, so we are two and a half years on the continuum to get to this moment in this trial. obviously, speed and pace is what everyone is thinking about. i want to come back to you, nancy, again, as a former federal judge, your impression of judge check-ins, what she said and the schedule she set for the march 4th trial, which as of now, the does not seem to be any like legal filings by the trump folks to try to stop that. >> the trump folks can't stop it in the abstract. if there is one thing that is fully and probably indiscretion the judge is setting a trial. what they can begin to do is as they file motions, they say, hey, this trial they will not work for these specific reasons. or you have to resolve the ten motions before we can have a trial. what are the things that judge chuck can set that i think was unbelievably smart was probably about trump talking about the proceedings and discouraging the judge and the prosecutor. what she said essentially is if she violates the terms of his bail by a dispirited judge dispiriting the process, trying to poison the jury pool, you will have a quicker trial. i thought that that was really smart. here, you hold the keys to the pacing of this, except for the march they. if you don't want it to be like in january, don't violate the terms of your release. >> speaking of swift trials, there has been a flurry of activity in georgia around the october trial, catherine. people talk about a speedy trial, which tries to make real the constitutional guarantee of a speedy trial. the chief asked for a speedy trial. he's got a date for october 23rd. others like sydney powell, while others filed motions to sever. funny will set let's do all 19 together. october 23rd, which i don't think will happen. i guess my question is, can you actually try anyone on october 23rd in two months? six weeks, eight weeks, is that realistic? >> well, the eight willis had said that they had this case for two years, more than two years. they would not have presented it to the grand jury, unless they are ready to go. mr. chesebro's attorney, from wisconsin, i am thinking to they will try to stick it to her, and she called their bluff. the reality is, if he is ready to go, they just said that we are going to go on a computer needed. what is interesting is that he has not said that he does not want to be trialed with sydney powell, because her attorney said that she wants a speedy trial. it will be interesting. i don't think the judge grants october 23rd for mr. chesebro and october 23rd for mr. powell. that will beat those two defendants on trial. in terms of severance, basically by asking for a speedy trial, you issued a severance motion but granting the. other defendants will not be forced to go to trial on the 23rd, but if you tried to sever themselves from the other defense or not, -- >> then they might be on the -- >> they need to show harm and prejudice for a separate motion to be granted. but mr. chesebro, if his attorneys are serious, they can always say never mind, but if they are serious, and the dea office to serious, there will be a trial on october 23rd. >> nancy gertner and catherine christian, thank you both, appreciate it. still ahead, he said he won't support donald trump if convicted. he urged republicans to speak the truth about trump. he stands out because he is also a republican candidate for president, and asa hutchinson joins me next. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers 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change? raise your hand if you do. >> we are not schoolchildren, let's have the debate. i am happy to take it to start. [applause] i don't think that is the way to do it. >> you saw florida governor ron desantis deliberately blow up at the opportunity for candidates to answer that. of course, climate change is by far the most urgent, pressing issue that we face. and that is illustrated in the fox news debate. young voters are concerned about, as they should. i feel like a real answer from all of the candidates onstage, not just the most extreme denialists. unfortunately, we have one, right here, asa hutchinson, the former republican governor of arkansas, now a republican candidate for's party. he was on that debate stage last week. he's with me now. welcome, governor. you don't there is your hand, yes or no, but basically the question is, are humans, particularly human burning of fossil fuel causing climate change? >> well, it is certainly part of it. to go back to the debate, that question was asked, i was the only candidate that raised my hand. >> you did raise your hand? >> oh, i raised my hand, the only candidate to raise my hand. you need to look at the video. i spoke the truth that, night and i wanted to have the opportunity to talk about it. that is what was frustrating. we did not show the respected that young student who asked a question. this is a legitimate question being asked, and governor desantis boot it up and got its side tracked. it is something that republicans need to talk about, and we express our views. that does not take away my desire to produce energy. i talk about that as well, but you had to acknowledge the truth, and that is what i did that night. >> let's just engage on that, because i am interested in this. my feeling about this, we talk about emergency management in florida, hurricanes and stuff like that. generally speaking, there is no partisan valence in florida, where hurricanes don't happen, what are you talking about? they don't exist. everyone understands that hurricanes happen. and then you talk about the best way to deal with it. the big question is, what is your agenda? what is your plan and a vision to reduce carbon emissions in line with those paris accord? >> it starts in each individual home, about recycling, about what you do with plastic bottles. it also starts with what you do in terms of governor. having cleaner emissions and coming out of power plants and investing those. all of those things are important, so the policy is important. we were investing in and will continue to invest in electric vehicle charging stations. where the difference comes is that we had to be realistic about it. we don't want to punish america. you see extraordinary heat in the united states of america, need to have american commission, need to have fans to operate, and that takes energy. you have to balance the, want to produce energy, and we need to move methodically through the reasonable restraints on co2 admissions. >> i will ask you one more question on this. i don't agree with that, but it's an answer at least on the table of a possible thing to discuss. do you ever look at something like 98 degrees in the atlantic off the coast of south florida, like it was a few weeks ago, a 1. 5 degrees celsius race in temperature, about three degrees fahrenheit, right that we saw this summer, enormous i shelf breaking up the ice shelf. do you have moments where you are like, there is something wrong here that i am worried about for my country, my family, my children and grandchildren. do you ever have those visceral moments? >> well, i grew up on a farm, and i was taught to be good stewards of the land and our environment. to me, that is an important principle. so you have to manage it. once we understand that co2 admissions are significant in terms of the climate, you address that, you don't want to punish america though, and that is where you get into the fine points. i think that converting to electric vehicles and a short amount of time is unreasonable. i think you've got to extend this and the consumers have to drive it more, and education is an important part of a. we have to be competitive with the other nations. that's a more conservative approach to addressing the climate issues, but you've got to start with being honest that we do have a responsibility. >> all right, former arkansas governor asa hutchinson, who did races hand in the debate says back on the program. i appreciate you coming back, thank you very much. >> always good to be with you, thank you so much. >> yocum. coming up, the current republican front runner is currently facing nearly 100 felony charges, so why is this closest challenger worried that his campaign might be in trouble next? 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tim miller it's a former spokesman for the rnc, former communications director for jeb bush's 2016 campaign. he's now writer-at-large for the bulwark and -- amanda carpenter -- former communications director for senator ted cruz, now works for protect democracy, non-partisan organization dedicated to -- authoritarianism. both join me. now tim, i have been through a few campaign cycles, presidential cycles. there's always a lot -- you know, i cover them. not like you have as a staffer. but it's never a great thing, the closing offices, the firing people, the rejigging. sometimes it works. but it's not great. and the idea of, like, the desantis money juggernaut -- right? like, the theory of the case was, build this enormous enterprise, we can raise a ton of money and a go steamroll. that is not happening. right? >> no. to say the least, it hasn't happened. his campaign can't even pay for stuff, right? this is a super pac -- campaign event in iowa. it was the super pac that was paying for everything. he was on the super max bus. so, no. needless to say, that hasn't worked. here is the thing, though, chris hayes. and this is where i may be differ from other commentators on this subject. money in presidential primaries in 2024 is not that important, really. donald -- >> say more. >> donald trump won in 2016 with a golf caddie and a twitter feed and a plane. no ads. he did not have any door knocking. most of this money -- and jeff roe -- million dollars -- consulting firm -- >> well, he needs -- >> doorknocking or -- presidential race. one more tv ad, one more knock on the door. i don't think the -- problem with his campaign is ron desantis -- the candidate is bad. that's a bad sign. >> it is a good point. it's an interesting point. because, when we think about the -- for 50 years, basically, the basic way that campaigns functioned was, you raise money, and then he spent that on tv. and there was kind of the sort of feels revolution that happened, partly because of some work by some political scientists that showed some efficacy, particularly in sort of center-left circles, amanda carpenter -- >> -- >> yeah, lower -- >> -- >> tim's contention here is that, basically, the name recognition, the intentional imperatives, and the domination, particularly of a pretty small media ecosystem, fox and the like, means that, like, there is not even a lot of affective stuff you can do with the money. what do you think of that? >> listen. the fundamental flaw of ron desantis's campaign is that he made a strategic decision to be an echo of trumpism and not a choice away from it. you can have all the money and the world. >> yeah -- >> but if you make that fundamental strategic failure, you are going to have problems. and so, i keep having flashbacks of 2016. because, you know, ted cruz kind of pushing the same strategy, has a lot of the same consultants working on the desantis campaign. but then i think about what happened when it was clear that ted cruz was going to lose. you probably remember, he went to the cameras and just let it fly, called trump a sniffling coward, went at him for all the lies that happened. and i sort of think that, if ron desantis really wants to shake things up, maybe you need to have that moment now. i think everybody in this race needs to have a come to jesus moment and imagine the day that donald trump gets the nomination. what does it mean if donald trump gets a nomination? a lot of the coverage folks is about the states and the general election. i am telling you, the country changes the day that he becomes the republican nominee. >> yeah. >> because once that happens, it means all the indictments, the insurrection, the lying, the smear, is the holdup of money to ukraine -- everything is sanctioned. it is okay. because the republican party has said, we renominate this man knowing everything. this is not like 2016 when he is an unknown quantity. so, that means everything is okay by -- you know, the republican party represents roughly half the country. even if joe biden wins in a landslide, that has a massive repercussions. and so i think ron desantis, if you want to shake things up, think about what that means and how you can make a difference now. and even the other lower level candidates -- it was nice we had some moments where nikki haley talked in the debate about trump's spending and how it would be in a courtroom and not on the campaign trail. but you need to go bigger than that. because this election is on how we prosecute a former president accused of serious criminal activity. and if he gets the nomination, roughly half the country is suddenly okay with that. >> yeah. there was an interesting thing i read today. i want to sort of share some of this data. one of the things i think has been a little bit of a trump psych job on the indictments is that the indictments are helping him. and they like that spin a lot, obviously. i do think that, because of the dynamics of the attention economy with respect to trump that, in a fundraising level, like, he can tangibly monetize being indicted. i think that is probably true. but, politically speaking, i saw this right up today just looking at the numbers and -- do the indictments help? him even in the primary, there is not really much support for that. like, it's basically been stable. it is not like the indictments are -- that is the sort of -- you know, those are the sort of arrow bars. but you can see that that is, basically, the general stability of the race of trump 's pre-indictment and then post the other indictments. what do you think, tim, about the idea that, like, the indictments are not really moving the needle one way or the other? >> yeah. i look at those -- that same study. and to me, it's like, what has happened is that ron desantis rain really terrible campaign that there's no other alternative for donald trump. donald trump had a stable number. he went down after the midterms briefly. desantis popped. and then desantis made a series of miscues that may put him out of step with the party, and then when trump's first indictment happened, trump did demonstrate, i think, that he is the alpha of the party. it is still his party. and desantis did not do anything to try to arrest wrest that from him. -- maybe that first one helped him a little bit. but pretty much the fact that he has not had any competition in the stuff that all that amanda carpenter just laid out its -- more and more with each. indictment >> tim miller and amanda carpenter, thank you both for the time. have a great weekend. still to come, we are here for another hour, and yet another republican planned to remove a judge they disagree with. but first, what the constitution says about donald trump's eligibility for another term when this special two hour edition of "all in" continues, next. o be. like here. and here. not so much here. if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life. ♪ farxiga ♪ and farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. farxiga can help you keep living life. ask your doctor for farxiga for chronic kidney disease. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ farxiga ♪ she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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without any kind of a process? without any kind of a definition? it's just ludicrous. >> now, i find some arguments about section three more persuasive than others. i don't think it's a clear cut case of, yes, he should be banned in every state. because i think there is democratic legitimacy questions i think about. but even proponents of a legal strategy can see, it is a long shot. there is no clear plan to make it, for instance, pass the 6 to 3 trump supreme court. but again, setting aside the political and the legal hurdles for a moment, we should just be clear. the constitution sets many qualifications for holding office. some people are eligible to be president, for instance. some are not. this is not at all controversial. for instance, if you are not a natural born citizen of the united states you cannot be president. it is why former california governor arnold schwarzenegger never ran for that office despite very transparently harboring those ambitions. you also can't be president if you are under 35 years old. again, in the plain text of the constitution. a 22 year old cannot be on the ballot for presidential election, no matter how good their plans might sound in the dorm room. and another thing -- if you gave aid -- to an insurrection, or participate in, one despite having previously sworn to uphold the constitution, you can't be president of the united states. now, the question of who would be the one saying no is a big, interesting, live question. right? like, who gets to say? in that article by the two conservative lawyers i cited a moment ago, they argue, quote, a state secretary of state might well possess state law authority to determine candidate eligibility for federal offices, and among those relative intelligibility criteria is whether candidate is disqualified from the office he or she seeks by section three of the 14th amendment. and i think there's a really strong case to be made that every state secretary of state has to take seriously whether donald trump is the equivalent of a 22 year old trying to get on the presidential ballot. >> shenna bellows his main's democratic secretary of state. she is currently evaluating whether trump is disqualified from maine the ballot? who does that? >> good evening, chris. that is a good question. it is the chief election officers in the state of maine and, of course, the constitution delegates authority to administer federal elections to the states, to make determinations about candidate qualifications. now, it's important for your viewers to know, this is something our election officials do every single election when we receive nomination petitions from candidates we make determinations based on the facts before us. so, you are absolutely correct. if shakira wanted to be president, that would not be possible. >> yeah. and there is -- sometimes there is real stuff around residency too. different states have different laws about residency for state office. but, like, if someone wanted to represent maine but they lived in honolulu, i imagine the state -- residency requirements, that would be another place where you would make some determination about that? >> well, certainly. every single major election, our job is to interpret state law and the constitution and evaluate the candidate and -- qualifications for every race. and in fact, in maine, there have been instances where candidates have been qualified disqualified for different reasons, based on a procedural review that is dispassionate, nonpartisan and in accordance with the law on the constitution. that is our sole obligation, he's to hold the law and the constitution as it applies to facts presented to us at the proper time. >> and obviously, there would be -- and again, i'm just saying with his four second before we get to the constitutional analysis of trump in the 14th amendment -- but obviously, in any situation in which your office were determined there is a lack of qualification, the guy that lives in honolulu, there is nothing to do with and maine wants to represent maine in the state senate district -- right? they could challenge that in court. i mean, there is going to be process after that determination. it is not going to be the final thing. but you would then go before some sort of judge and in effect, right? >> it's important for voters to know, none of us are making up the laws and the processes. there was already exist. in maine, valid access for every candidate including, presidential candidates is governed by title 21 a. presidential candidates have to submit their nomination papers by december 21st. there's a period after that in which challenges to any candidate are permissible in accordance with that law. hearings are then held by the secretary of state and then a determination is made which, of, course is appealable to court. that is maine's procedure. it is different in every state. >> right. >> those timelines and those circumstances in the facts that are presented to us. so, we are being very careful not to engage in conjecture and speculation about a particular candidate. we will make those evaluations when they are properly presented to us. >> yeah. i guess a quick question is -- and i want to read for you the chairman of the maine gop says, if any shenanigans began, we are prepared to take action to defend any and all of our candidates. mainers should be able to vote for their preferred republican against joe biden. i guess a question for you is, how do you conceive of your constitutional duty with respect to the 14th amendment section three, in the abstract? >> i swore an oath to uphold the constitution, including the 14th amendment. and all aspects of the maine constitution and the united states constitution as well as the laws of our state and the nation. so we'll be looking at that comprehensively, carefully and dispassionately, with advice from the office of the attorney general eric wry, and that's a really important process under the law. and i think that's the most important message here. is that legal scholars may debate what might happen, but our job is to fulfill the obligation under the rule of law. and that is it. >> secretary of state shenna bellows, who is the secretary of state of the state of maine. thank you so much for joining us tonight and have a great weekend. >> thank you. >> noah bookbinder is president ceo of the of the -- which used a section three of the amendment to oust a county commissioner in new mexico. and joyce white vance served as just returning for the northern legislature of alabama she now teaches at the university of alabama law, school, co-hosts the sister-in-law podcast and they join me. now noah, let me start with you. as the only invocation two minor standing, and i may be wrong about this, of section three in the 14th amendment, since the reconstruction era was in new mexico, and i believe last year, who -- one of the party's lawsuit. tell me about that case and how you understood the sort of question of, like, what is the bar to establish this and who gets to stay say? >> so, this is, as you pointed out, this is the u.s. constitution. but it is -- how it is administered really happens on a state by state basis. because states determine ballots and, in the case of the new mexico case, this was somebody who is already in office, and new mexico has a lot on the books that says, residents of the state can go to court to challenge an officeholder if that person is not qualified to serve in office. and so -- we represented residents of new mexico, who went to court, and they said, this guy -- griffin, he was a county commissioner, and he was on the steps of the capitol under january 6th. he helped to recruit people, to come to washington that day. he incited violence or normalized it. he wasn't personally violent. that's important. but he was somebody who was an organizer and was responsible for what happened there. they said that he is not qualified. a judge actually held an evidentiary hearing, hearing from fact witnesses, people who were there on that day, as well as from experts on the constitution and the history of reconstruction. and evaluated what is an insurrection under the constitution and what does it mean to engage in one, and found that january 6th quite clearly was an insurrection within the meaning of the 14th amendment, and that this person, who was not violent but who helped to incite this insurrection, engage in it for constitutional purposes, and he is now out of office and banned from office in the future. >> yeah. so, what's interesting there, joyce, is that the state law provided the avenue to make the claim. so, state law and new mexico law says, you can actually -- a citizen can sue if they believe in officeholder is not eligible. all of this is going to come down to different sort of state law questions. did the secretary of state -- the opportunity, like in new mexico? but one thing i have seen raised -- and i'm curious what you think in the sort of constitutional matter is -- that it would be one thing if you had someone who was, say, convicted of seditious conspiracy, like the individuals we talked about earlier this evening, who, a jury of their peers found guilty, right? of something, essentially, akin to insurrection. but, in the absence of, that you can't just do this willy-nilly. what do you think? >> i think that that is the key point. new mexico had a statute on the books that provided for a process. the constitution creates this barrier, and then, in section five, it says, and congress can pass any laws necessary. so, the problem that we have is that there is really a dearth of laws here that advise the court, from the citizenry, on how to implement this prohibition on people holding office after participating in a sort of behavior. that is not to say that it can't be done, though. section three appears in the constitution itself. and so, strict constructionists would argue, with some force -- and some of them have recently -- that this is, in some sense, self executing, that you don't need a mechanism. >> right. >> but chris, to your initial point, it's clear what you do have to have his process. you can't just have an individual decision to strip someone off the ballot. secretary of state shenna bellows in maine explains how careful and thorough they are. and if a candidate does not like their decision, then they can go forward and challenge. that is how a process like this would have to work. >> yeah, that sort of self executing question is an interesting one. it's sort of a technical one. those two authors talk about it and argue, i, thought persuasively, that in the case of section three, it is self executing. their analog is, are those constitutional sort of prescriptions about who is eligible to run for president, which they argue are obviously self executing, right? congress does not have to pass a law saying you have to be 35, and an actual born citizen. that is just a case for the constitution, and officeholders have to uphold it. in terms of how this might play out -- and again -- i don't want to get too far in the fanfic here -- i think the constitutional cases strong, but that doesn't mean it's good to happen in reality. but given, noah, that you guys did this successfully, how would you imagine this happening in a state by state level? >> this is not a fan fiction. this is something that we are working on currently, that we are studying. and there are states that have laws that say that residents can go to court and challenge the qualification of somebody on the ballot to be analog of that, in new mexico law, said you can challenge the qualifications of somebody already in office. >> you can have a situation where residents bring a case, it goes to court, and a judge holds an evidentiary hearing -- we are not -- you know, nobody is talking about making decisions on a whim. >> right. >> he would have careful consideration of the law and the facts. in a court could make that determination, similarly, a secretary of state, like secretary bellows, could do their own process and make that kind of determination. both of those are process oriented ways of going about that. >> yeah. and i would imagine, none of this is going to -- if any of it happens at any level, joyce, it will get before -- pretty fast. like, very quickly, unemotional application before scotus, and they are going to have the final say, i would imagine, on something like this. right? >> i think that is right. it would move pretty quickly. but something that few people are discussing, chris, is the fact that parties as well have standards for letting candidates run for office in their states. and any republican state party could certainly make the decision that the former president is not qualified. that would clearly be the right thing to do. you know, even in states like alabama, we have had political races we are parties have removed candidates from the ballot. there was a case where a democratic nominee for the supreme court was removed from the democratic ballot because he spewed anti-gay and anti-transgender sort of sentiment in the party, and said you, don't meet our standards. so, all sorts of options for making this happen. but, to your point, the supreme court is very likely to be the final arbiter. >> noah bookbinder and joyce vance, thank you very much. i learned a lot. coming up the republican front runner, twice impeached, quadrupling indicted, one-term loser -- so, what does it mean that multiple polls, day after day, show him in a dead heat with president biden? 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here now to talk me off the ledge, josh marshall, and editor in chief of talking points memo, and michelle goldberg, an op-ed columnist for the new york times. michelle goldberg, you are laughing because you and i have known each other for two decades, and i feel you will talk me onto the ledge. >> yeah. >> i feel like you are probably in the same place. >> it's frankly terrifying. i can make a case for why these numbers are not as terrifying as they seem. because, you know, i think -- for one thing, people have seen a lot about donald trump recently. but they haven't necessarily seen from him. when he's not -- he's not a kind of -- >> oh, that's interesting. >> -- either when he is running for president, or when he was president. you might see these pictures of him hawking his mugshot t-shirts. but -- something we know about donald trump's, he's been in the public eye for some time his favor ability ratings -- go down because -- rational, grandiose, and just generally awful he was -- why his ratings went down during covid when he is giving those daily press conferences. and then, i think the other thing is that, when you look at these polls, they show that republicans are largely coalescing behind trump and democrats haven't coalesced behind biden to the same extent. my guess is that most of the people who voted for biden in 2020 will come back, even if they haven't told pollsters that they will yet. but yeah, the fact that it is even, it's terrifying on its face. and it also is i think, part of the reason why electability argument that other republican candidates are trying to make against trump have fallen flat. >> a great point. josh, what is your read on this? >> my guess is similar to michelle's in a way. there are a number of technical reasons why we can look at these numbers, and i think they're probably not as quite as bad as they seem. one is that both candidates are down in, basically, the low forties in most of these polls. and that is not how the -- it is basically going to be a binary race. so, the question is, how do those upward -- you know, 15, upwards of, 20% of the electorate -- where they come down? there's a lot of reasons to think that biden will have the better shot at those. obviously it's also an indicator that there is possibly a lot to work with for a spoiler, or third party candidacy. i think that's always been biden's biggest vulnerability. >> yep. >> but for all that, it's not great, right. you would think that there would be -- trump would be taking on a little more water with this. i think the point that michelle just made is a really good one. and it is sort of why -- i mean, maybe just on the merits, twitter, or whatever elon musk calls it today, should not have someone like donald trump on its platform because of all the awful things he did and everything. but i think the fact that he has sort of been cocooned on his little truth social site and everything. and what he does media appearances, it's on these kind of weird fox clone websites that most people i know i've never even heard of before. and i think it's clear -- i think michelle is a hundred percent right, it -- is weird. >> but it's an interesting counter intuitive argument because people tend to think in a different direction, attention to superpower, and he thinks that, and everyone thinks that he has a special quality. but i think that data bears out the point which is -- the more people see it and they go, no. that is actually -- >> totally. totally. that is why he sort of -- and let's be frank, liberal idea that don't platform him, don't amplify him. it just gives him more power. not really, not really, right? the people who love him they can see him fine. they're on truth social, they're on oan or whatever these other places are. so i think that it's all a pretty bad idea and it's one of the reasons. but look, i think we have to go back to the fact that, he was totally crazy as president, and everything that happened in 2020 was totally bonkers, right? even crazier than what happened in the first three years of his presidency, and it was darn close. it was darn close. >> that's right. >> at some level, why would we expect it to be otherwise? there is a lot of -- a lot of very broken stuff in this country and that's why he's competitive. for people who kind of are out there on the ledge, i do think there are reasons that we don't have time to get into now, why these polls showing them kind of tied in the low 40s aren't as bad as the scene. but as i said, it's not great. >> yeah, so there's two big reasons, i think. one is that i think, the campaigns really matter. and i think, on both the sort of record, on abortion, on american democracy, when it comes to who is on the right side of public opinion of big things, that is really going to help. and we saw that happen in the mid term, particularly on democracy and abortion. it was like -- it helped wing swing voters. one thing that -- there is a lag an economic opinion as inflation comes down, as real wages, as we just start to outpace inflation, i think that that's going to change things. we're seeing it in the michigan consumer sentiment survey which is coming up from its [inaudible] when inflation was at 8%. but the other part of this, michelle, and i wanna get your take on, it is the age question. look, you can evaluate from -- biden on the merits that he's doing the job and he is the a. g.'s, and i think he's done a pretty good job. but, it's also the case that poll after, poll, after poll, after poll, big majority say, they don't like it. now, donald trump is only two years younger, so it sort of ludicrous in that context, but i do wonder how much you think that's playing role. >> i've been sort of banging this drum for a while, thought about this problem for a while, and its problem i think you know, when you talk to people who aren't immersed in politics, it's what they say about joe biden. so how many of those people -- how many people there are would vote for trump over biden and who would say gretchen whitmer over trump, it's hard to say. but there's something to say about someone who can really energize and excite people, and biden, at this point, even though i think he has a record to be very proud of in a lot of ways, he's the best president of my lifetime, his age is both a substantive problem, in that he's not out there and he's not kind of public facing the way other presidents -- other right recent presidents have been, and it's also the perception problem that people -- even when he is delivering really good results, he's not necessarily getting credit for it. >> yeah, michelle goldberg and josh marshall, thank you so much for joining us on this holiday friday night. have a great weekend. >> thanks for having us. >> she was democratically elected by the people of the state of wisconsin, so why are republicans in a rush to remove her from office? 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ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. >> we continue to cover the david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. resin anti democratic efforts by republican officials in states across the country, we did say yesterday. the absolute these crazy story in north carolina where it appears republicans, or someone, has launched a judicial commission investigation which may call for the removal of the sole black female justice on the state supreme court because she was caught speaking about the lack of diversity in the court system in an interview when she was asked about it. well tonight, we have another one of the stories. and this one is out of wisconsin. about republicans stopping at nothing to just get rid of state judges they don't like. in april, wisconsin held a high stakes election for an open state supreme court seat, a seat that would determine if conservatives maintain control of that ultra important high court. we covered on the show. they got a lot of national attention. justices in wisconsin to an actually run on partisan lines -- but back in april, there's a clear liberal and conservative candidate. so, democratic's and republicans too, right, saw it as a race with the fate of the court up for grabs. democrats saw an opportunity to flip the court for the first time in 15 years, and it wasn't even close. >> nbc news has projected the results in a very important wisconsin supreme court election tonight. janet protasiewicz is the more liberal of the two candidates. daniel kelly, the more conservative of the two candidates. this is broadly considered to be the most consequential election in the year 2023. as you see with these elections, here at the projected winner is janet protasiewicz. >> so, the more liberal justice, janet protasiewicz won by a whopping 11 points. the conservative got absolutely crushed. and he wasn't very happy about it. >> i was that in a circumstance like this, i'd be able to concede to a worthy opponent. but i do not have a worthy opponent to which i can concede. my opponent is a serial liar. she has disregarded judicial ethics. she has demeaned the judiciary with her behavior. >> really one of the nastiest concession speeches i've ever seen. hard to imagine that that guy didn't win over the voters in wisconsin. but apart from the other lack of decorum, republicans were sulking. because here's the thing, wisconsin instate legislature is one of the most gerrymandered states in the country. it's a 50/50 state, right? we know that. right down the middle. statewide elections haven't been won by democrats, the governor right now, the attorney general right now. but the state legislature, because of the maps they themselves has drawn, has supermajorities in both houses under republican control, because of those maps. their entire power in the state rests on, that rests on those maps. now the existential threat to the power would be if the state supreme court in wisconsin found those chariot maps to be unconstitutional under state law. that is a real possibility with the new 4-3 majority and lawsuits challenging the gerrymandered maps. so before she's even heard a single case in the state supreme court, republican lawmakers, the ones who gerrymandered those maps, right, are now talking about impeaching janet protasiewicz and removing her from office. and here's a thing, they may very well have the votes to do it. ruth conniff is editor in chief of the wisconsin examiner and she joins me now. tell us the status, my understanding is, these maps were challenged and the old free court with a conservative majority said they're fine, is that it? >> yes, the old majority -- it goes back further than that when republicans control not just both houses of the legislature but also the governance mansion under sky walk. are they gerrymandered the maps in 2010 after that census and they made this incredibly republican favoring set up in a backroom, in a map that was challenged repeatedly in court. hidden from the public. very much all republicans rigging it for themselves. and then in the next census, there was a new round of maps, and our state supreme court, then conservative majority of the state supreme court, made a rule that it had to be the least change possible from the gerrymandered map. so they threw out -- >> i see -- >> the perspective maps -- the fair maps, and then sided on the sleaze change standard. so we have maps that are once again pretty much the, same same gerrymandering. >> and there is a lawsuit now, right? it's gonna come back to the state supreme court where this a claim that the past justices have found that it violates the state constitution. >> yes. it's been an issue for years that we don't have fair maps. the crystal estrogen of how unfair they ours in the 2018 election when the democrat was elected and then every republican won every race that year. and yet, in the assembly, democrats were only able to win 36 out of 99 seats. so you can see the ski was overwhelming. people voted by many more points for democrats and they couldn't pick up more than a third of seats. so, it's very gerrymandered, there's no question about that. and the fact that they're accusing janet protasiewicz for somehow being corrupt for saying everything that everyone knows, the maps are, begged the judge said it, it's a standard line in ap news stories -- that are something he is threatening to impeach her, has admitted utter himself. it's a fact. it's factually demonstrable that the maps are rigged. >> if you have an election like 2018 where you win a bunch of statewide races and in that same election, with that same voter base who votes for a bunch of democrats statewide turns into a 2 to 1 majority in one house, this is a thing, this is existential for them. because this is how they have their power. they are now talking about publicly impeaching her before she even does anything or rules, am i right about that? >> yes, you are right. you're right, robin boss was the speaker of the assembly said that they're going to seriously consider impeaching her and the issue that they want to impeach her on is that it was unfair for her during her campaign to say plainly that she thought that the maps were rigged, that you described that this was somehow pre judging a case because there was no case at that time. even that is kind of silly. but the thing is, it's a constitutional crisis in wisconsin. because there are recusal rules in the state supreme court. and the recusal rules are weak because then conservative majority made them that way. in 2017, they rejected an effort to say that judges should be forced to recuse if they had their own donors in front of them. they said, no, we're not gonna go that far. in, fact we cannot let judges decide if they recuse in each case. including supreme court justices. there's no basis for this, and it's really a lot of talking points and a lot of drama. but there's just no actual law behind it. >> they may go ahead with this. the only hope here is that there's actual public opinion backlash which i think there will be. so we're going to keep our eyes on this one. it's not going to go under the radar if they actually try to pull this off. ruth conniff thank you for joining us. oh, they your last word. >> they can procedurally delay her if they can impeach but not convict, she can't act. so then, it sets up the dilemma that she is sidelined for -- before the 2024 election on this issue. so the issue there is evers, could re-point, she could quit, somebody else could step in. so that is going to unfold. and that's gonna be very interesting. >> all right we're gonna keep our eyes on it. still to come, another month, thanks, ruth. another month, another jobs report out. performance for the biden administration. acting secretary of labor julie su joins me with a plan on how to keep the economy going, next. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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reason we are seeing this huge uptick in labor -- and strikes now, is because the economy is where the labor market. is today we have the latest example of. that we had the august jobs report where the u.s. added 187,000 jobs exceeding expectations once again. bringing the labor force participation at its highest level since 2020. joining me now is acting labor secretary julie su. today came out above expectations, it does show deceleration in the job growth over trend. are you concerned about that or do you think this is coming in from the kind of much wanted soft landing people were hoping for? >> exactly, chris. this is what you would want to see if you wanted to see a soft landing. this is what -- is we know as strong and steady growth. after the very hot and rapid recovery under president biden, 13. 5 million jobs created, record low levels of unemployment. this is the transition to the kind of strong, stable economy that we want. >> so there's a lot of labor activity and labor militancy going on the summer, of course, as i've mentioned before. you have the writers and the actors on strike, you have the strike authorization vote -- the autoworkers, i think that deadline is in two weeks. do you see a role for the department of labor, the white house, the president, in those negotiations? >> the president has said that he is the most pro union, pro labor president that we've had. and part of that is economic policies that have created a tight labor market, which give workers more power. part of that is our recognition of the productive bargaining process. why it's important, how it, works and respecting the parties. so we get involved if we think we can be helpful, but we also respect the parties and their need and willingness to grapple through some hard issues and find win-win solutions themselves. >> i want to come back to one of the more high-profile labor battles under the biden administration, from which the president took some criticism, and that was the railroad unions, and the railroad companies. there's a number of unions. because of the way the railroads labor disputes were statutorily -- uni laterally foist an agreement of the party. in order to avoid a railroad strike, that was. done at the end of that process, the big ask from the railroad union workers was for paid six days, which they did. half understanding is that subsequent to that, there actually have been additional rounds of bargaining that have led to a number of those companies and unions actually securing paid sick days now. is that right? >> that's exactly right. that demonstrates, too, that the contra bargaining process, it's not a one and done situation. and that's why happened. workers want to paid sick days, and one thing that we saw through the pandemic is just how untenable it is to have workers not having any kind of paid days where they can just take off and they need to because they're sick, because a family member is sick. so the rail workers have gotten that, and that's just one example of many in which unions and employers have come together to the bargaining table and reached really historic winds. we've seen that in the west coast ports, 29 ports, aisle w.u. made historic demands and they just ratified that contract. obviously, the team starters and u. p. s., same thing. >> that was another one that looks like -- i think there was also a strike authorization of vote there. they did not have to go to strike, they came to a deal. you've been around labor your whole life and career. you worked representing folks that were workers, gardener workers. you've now been a policy person, you're now an acting secretary of labor. what is your belief about why we are seeing the level of labor activism, militancy, organizing that we are seeing this year and the last two years? >> i think it's a few things. one is that we are coming off a global pandemic and the pandemic induced economic catastrophe. that has given a lot of people some room to take stock, and workers are realizing that for a long time, workers have not gotten their fair share. there has been growing inequality. there is been declining unionization for the last four decades. stagnant wages, and workers are realizing that, in this moment, they want better. and they deserve better. another part of it is, a strong labor movement and a worker centered economy is very much bidenomics. it's the presidents entire vision of how we build a strong workforce, profitable employers, and a strong nation. >> final question for you, is about a question that the department of labor just promulgated, if i'm not mistaken, overtime pay. this is one of those things, again, these things can happen deep in the administrative state. they bind, through the get announced, but they have incredibly incredible and tangible consequences for. people explain the new rules -- my understanding would make several million more workers would be eligible for overtime pay. >> that's right, all our rulemaking is extremely transparent. it goes through a process, it was publicly announced, and now there is a common period before it gets finalized. but the overtime rule is really about the american promise that if you put in a fair -- a hard days work, you should get a just day's pay. a fair days pay for her days work. and it will -- when finalized, at the standard -- it would get about 3. 6 million workers who are currently not eligible for overtime, overtime. that's just to protect people, if you work over 40 hours in the week you should be paid for it. >> acting secretary of labor julie su on this labor day weekend, thank you so much for making time for us. >> thank you so much, chris. happy labor day to you. >> that is all in for this week. have a great labor day weekend, stay safe. i learned i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help 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