Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704 : comparemela.com

day in a good way. like, i didn't know i had muscles here, what is that? have a great weekend and we'll see you next week. >> thank you, allie. good evening. i'm ali velshi in for ari melber. thanks for joining us for the two-hour edition of "the beat." the cases targeting trump are accelerating as prosecutors prepare to put actual evidence in front of actual juries. we're watching for developments in the georgia case specifically over when, how, and where this case is going to be tried. trump codefendant and former chief of staff mark meadows is awaiting a judge's decision on his bid to move his case or his part of it, because he's one of the 19 codefendants, to federal court. meadows claims the actions for which he was charged, setting up calls, reaching out to state officials as trump contested the 2020 election, were just part of his white house job. fani willis flatly rejects that, arguing even one official act shouldn't be enough to move meadows' case, and helping overturn the 2020 election actually wasn't part of his official job. also another kiko defendant, ken chesebro, pleaded not guilty while also waiving his arraignment. we have just learned that rudy giuliani plans to do the same. so far, several defendants have opted not to have a formal arraignment. donald trump is among them. trump and cheese borrow are also trying to sever their cases from the larger indictment along with sidney powell and ray smith. they all want separate cases. also today, two members of the far-right group the proud boys sentenced to prison for their actions during the january 6th insurrection. dominic pezzola, who led the charge, received ten years in prison convicted on multiple charges including assaulting a police officer. eeds than nordean, convicted of seditious conspiracy and other charges, received 18 years in prison. prosecutors had asked that nordean get 27 years. the oath keepers founder, stewart rhodes, a man who once shot himself in the eye, was also sentenced to 18 years for his actions on january 6th. that was previously. with that, let's bring in our leadoff panel, greg blum stein, "atlanta journal-constitution," msnbc political contributor, former u.s. attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a federal polluter. joyce vance, everybody's getting on this band wag began of saying to the judge in georgia, i do not wish to be tried with the rest of these people. two things, there's a move by some, mark meadows, donald trump, and others, to get their case severed from the rest. and there's a move by some to get their case moved to federal court. give me your evaluation of both of those efforts. >> right, so what we're seeing now is the sorting of questions about where the case will be tried and who gets tried together. first up, we've got this question of federal removal. it looks like fani willis has the edge on that one. she's appealed to the judge's better angels by saying, judge, this isn't about looking at every overt act in the indictment, it's about deciding whether or not mark meadows was engaged in his official function as the president's chief of staff or whether he was sidelining as a campaign worker when he engaged and entered into this rico conspiracy. so you look at the rico conspiracy as a whole. she makes a pretty powerful argument that he's working for the campaign, not the presidency at that point. and we'll see how the federal judge rules. that issue is ready for his ruling at any point in time. if we do end up with -- yeah? >> i was going to say, he asked for the transcripts, which were put out yesterday. so question assume he and his folks are looking through that now and trying to come to a decision. >> well, yes. i think that that's absolutely right. and we'll see, will that decision rest solely with the district judge or end up in front of the 11th circuit court of appeals? which seems likely. then we have our defendants in georgia. it looks like a couple of people want quick trials. whether they might rethink that when they see some of the implications of that after they get their two terabytes of discovery from fani willis remains to be seen. but i think that there's a little bit of a game that will go on here. defendants will not want to be tried in the same tranche as donald trump. they don't want to be sitting at the defendant's table with him when all of the evidence comes in. so we'll see strategic posturing around who goes to trial and when. >> greg bluestein, the constitution actually speaks to a quick trial. and you know, if most people could get it, they'd probably take it. donald trump's a bit of a standout, he wants his trials in 2026, long after he believes he'll be comfortably ensconced as the next president of the united states and he'll make all sorts of arguments as to why you can't prosecute him then if that were to happen. those who are asking for a quick trial, may be many reasons for that. one of which may be, they're not sure fani willis is ready to go to trial on october 23rd, the date set for at least one of them. what's your sense of it? >> yeah, just to expand on what joyce said, these defendants could always pull back those motions for a speedy trial. once they get this discovery. two terabytes. there's a lot of discovery that fani willis and her office has been compiling for more than two years. in my sense of this, all these motions, is basically these several defendants who are asking for a speedy trial, a push for it, fani willis might have called their bluff by saying, we're ready to go. generally speaking, she has been open to a very aggressive trial calendar. donald trump and several of his top allies want to slow things down. they want to sever their case. and they, of course, don't want -- we haven't seen the motion from donald trump quite yet, five others have tried to remove this case to federal court, which they think could give them a bigger jury pool. also would probably mean no televised proceedings. >> joyce, let's talk about mark meadows again for a second. he's making the argument that he was just -- he actually used the quords, "i was trying to land the plane, i'm the chief of staff to the former president, i'm trying to keep the trains running." he did a couple of things that were interesting. they used it in this pretrial, this thing he's using to try and get his case moved. one was a phone call to brad raffensperger, secretary of state, in which he's discussing things that don't sound like his official job as dhafs. he's talking about ways to arrive at getting these votes. he sent -- he's emailed other trump officials about the electoral -- getting the electors donald rumsfeld with. he showed up at a counting center in cobb county, georgia, and claims nobody told him to go there, he was uninvited, happened to be in georgia. then happened upon this counting center and decided to be there. it seems implausible at best. but his arvegt or -- the judge has asked if there was anything that he's been accused of doing that was in the capacity of chief of staff to the president of the united states, would that mean that it can be moved to federal court? can you help us with that? >> sure. so this is an interesting conversation that the parties are having with the judge. and it's because in the typical case involving federal law enforcement officers who are charged in state court and try to remove their case to federal court, there's not really much of a question about whether they were engaged in an official function. typically those cases happen, someone is executing an arrest warrant, there's a shooting, they're criminally charged in state court, and they say, i was a federal official engaged in my official duties so i get to have this matter tried in federal court. judges say yes. and move them along. that has happened in the last few years, actually, between fulton county and the federal court in the northern district of georgia. but this case is very different because the judge really does have to take a good, hard look at whether or not mark meadows was engaged in his official function. and meadows, his argument is this. i'm the president's chief of staff, my job is to stay five step ahead of the president, to anticipate questions he might have, to answer them, so i went over to take a look at this vote-counting facility in fulton county in that capacity. and that argument is stretched awfully thin. because the federal government, although the president certainly has some legitimate interest in ensuring that elections are free and fair, the president does not play any role in the individual vote counts in each of the states. and that's where meadows is injecting himself. going to oversee the counting process in a county, calling a secretary of state to set up a call about whether that secretary of state might be missing just the precise number of votes the president needs to win that election -- you know, it just doesn't pass the smell test. and federal judges aren't required to set aside their common sense when they rule on these matters. sure, mark meadows makes an argument. he has to if he wants to get into federal court. it's just not a very credible one. >> i want to bring into the conversation my old friend, katie benner, pulitzer prize-winning "new york times" justice reporter. good to see you, thank you for being with us. a few other things happening. we talked about the proud boys sentencing hearings today. massive. they were half of what the prosecution wanted. the prosecution wanted in some cases 28, 30, 33 years. over the last couple of days we've seen 18 years and less. but this is federal time. these are real prosecutions. these people are actually going to jail in some cases for seditious conspiracy. what's your sense of the role this plays? on one hand there's an argument by the defendants in the various trump cases that there was no insurrection, no organization, none of this. but we do have now actual trials, suggesting that these people were involved in some sort of organized effort to overturn the election. >> indeed. i think we're seeing what thiessen tensing, two messages. the first that the federal government and the judicial system is going to take these crimes very seriously. seditious conspiracy is something we are willing to charge, we haven't charged -- the government hasn't charged and won on that in quite a long time. but here we are with multiple convictions. some of these defendants serving well more than a decade. each one of them expressing extreme remorse for the actions they took leading to january 6th. i think this sends a strong message as we go into the next election that if there are contended votes, if there are people who don't understand or believe the outcome of that election, that this taking action against the government in this way is not acceptable and you can do real time. however, the federal government prosecutors were not able to create a firm link between the trump campaign and the trump team and those who physically attacked, violently attacked the capitol. so while you're right, it shows there was a seditious conspiracy, and there was attempt to interfere in the function of the united states government, perhaps to undermine it -- it doesn't mean they've ever firmly linked it to donald trump. again, that esare extremely serious convictions and serious time is going to be done. >> i want to ask about another trial that we're not following a lot, but it is the former trump trade adviser and longtime trump ally, peter navarro. someone you and i know because he was -- sort of put himself out there as an economic expert for many, many years. he's going to trial as well next week over issues relating to the january 6th committee. what's that about? >> peter navarro, he was somebody who the january 6th committee was very interested in, somebody who -- the january 6th committee felt had a serious role in the conspiracy. and he's interesting too, because he's often said -- he's written about the idea that the election should have been overturned in his own book, but he's somebody who's also tried to portray his role as something that was for the administration. he was an economic adviser but the stuff he's talking about in his book, january 6th itself, all these things, none of these have anything to do with his official role as economic adviser. he is being questioned, it's going to be interesting to see how he bridges that gap and tries to make the claim that the things he did for donald trump to overturn the election were things in his official capacity as an economic adviser. >> greg, i want to talk about the efforts on the part of the republican party, both in georgia and federally, to go after the various prosecutors in georgia, particularly against than fani willis. alvin bragg and fani willis are elected, they're district attorneys elected to their positions. brian kemp, governor of georgia, who is not on the sort of crazy side of this equation or the trump side of this equation, had this to say about it. >> i have not seen any evidence that d.a. willis' actions or lack thereof warrant action by the prosecuting attorney oversight commission. in my mind, a special session of the general assembly to end run around this law is not feasible and may ultimately prove to be unconstitutional. the bottom line is that in the state of georgia, as long as i'm governor, we're going to follow the law and the constitution. regardless of who it helps or harms politically. >> greg, there's a context to this that is both in the georgia indictments and in the jack smith election interference indictment. that is, state after state in michigan, in arizona, in georgia, republican officials said the words that brian kemp was saying prior to january 6th and around january 6th. and that is that, i voted for you, i probably wanted you to be president, i'm not breaking the law for you. i'm not going to do something unconstitutional. and this is what brian kemp is saying, the republican governor of georgia. we're not going after fani willis. >> yeah, not only did brian kemp support donald trump early on, but he also earned donald trump's endorsement and ran really a donald trump-backed campaign, a georgia first campaign, when he ran for his first term in office in 2018. we've seen this remarkable break. that was an extraordinary moment in georgia politics. we've heard the governor refute donald trump and rebuke him for saying georgia's election was rigged and promoting all sorts of lies about what happened in 2020. but this was the clearest break yet. not only did the governor say there's not going to be a special session to impeach fani willis, it's politically impossible, it's likely illegal. he went a step beyond and said, a new commission he signed into law that is supposed to go after what he calls rogue prosecutors, they see no evidence from that commission to go after fani willis, a break from even some republican rank and file members who had seen that as a sort of intermediary step rather than going all-out to impeach her, maybe reprimand her instead. the governor said he's seen no evidence she's worthy of that right now. >> joyce, you were a federal prosecutor for a really long time. dell me about this concept of rogue prosecutors and accountability. >> right. so there's legitimate concerns about accountability. prosecutors have a lot of discretion, and there should be oversight. but that's not what's going on in georgia, any more than it's what's going on in florida, where governor desantis has allowed two prosecutors to be removed from office, suspended on very flimsy excuses. this is just about politics. it's very often focused on prosecutors who are what we call reform prosecutors. prosecutors who believe in criminal justice reform, who believe that they should exercise their discretion in ways that focuses on the most serious crimes and perhaps doesn't prosecute, for instance, simple possession of marijuana. so there's been some push-back on that. and that's come to the forefront in some cases. but what we've seen more recently in florida, where there's been an effort to -- a successful effort to suspend a prosecutor who had said in the exercise of their discretion, they would not pursue certain kinds of abortion crimes. that really invades the province of the voters, who after all are electing these people, who should have a say-so in who they want prosecuting in their name. georgia now has this new law that will let people come after prosecutors. there's a lot of yin and yang going on in georgia. there are some folks who are for this measure, there are some people who are against it. i think the hope has to be that governor kemp will stick to his word, and if efforts do get under way to remove fani willis, which seems very likely, that he'll take this firm constitutional stance that he articulated earlier this week. >> a real treat to have all three of you here. after all this and every day of reporting it, i still have questions. i still keep on getting answers from you three. thanks very much. we have collected all four complete indictments against the former president, and we've made it into a book. it's edited and has an introduction written by yours truly and provides critical insight on a decisive moment in our history. the book is a must-read as we approach donald trump's trials. it will be published september 25th. order it now. if you'd rather listen, scan the qr code on your screen and you can fall asleep to my dulcet indictment tones. the august jobs report is out. we'll talk to president biden's top economic adviser about the latest jobs numbers, concerns over inflation, and the state of labor in the united states. later, ukraine is pushing ahead with its counteroffensive as russia ramps up attacks on kyiv. general barry mccaffrey and former united states ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul, are here 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[ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. every business that's why comcast business de is launching theal. mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. comcast business, powering possibilities. some experts said, to get inflation under control we needed higher unemployment and lower wages. i've never thought that was the problem. too many people having a job or that working people were making too much money. >> president biden delivered remarks from the rose garden following the reof the august jobs report. the economy added 187,000 net new jobs. the unemployment rate ticked up slightly to 3.8%, still far below historical averages. jared bernstein, chairman of the council of economic advisers. good to see you. thank you for being with us. what stood out in my mind this week, we've been watching good economic news for some months. the chairman of the federal reserve said, got to watch out for inflation. we brought it way down, we're almost at the point with inflation where one would argue it's outside of the fed's range, but it's actually largely where it could be for a long period of time. what happened? why are we still worried about that at 3.2%? >> well, i think the main thing that helped get inflation down from a bit over 9% over a year ago to around 3% today is the technical term, supply side normalization. that means basically, fixing a lot of things that got broken in the pandemic. supply chains are probably a great example. if you look at goods inflation, i think it actually came in with a negative handle this week. that is closely correlated with the improvement of the pace at which good moving through ports. you may recall in 2021, president biden made sure we set up a supply side disruption task force to start dealing with this. we sent an envoy to the ports on the west coast. at any rate, at this point, that kind of supply chain improvement is really helping taking inflation down. i'm not going to speak to the federal reserve's monetary policy, but i will tell you this. what we now have -- i know you'll appreciate this, and i believe our listeners will as well. what we now have are wages outpacing prices. so real wage gains, increased purchasing power. very important characteristic of the current economy. >> what do you say to people who say that that is a major component of inflation? look, we have wages that have not adjusted to where inflation has been over the years. wage growth is nowhere close to corporate profitability. yet people say inflation and they say, shorter jobs, wages going up. what's the response to that? >> well, i think you heard it from president biden. don't come to me telling me that we can't have real wage gains and an economy that's posting the kind of numbers you've just seen. the unemployment rate below 4% for over a year and a half. 13.5 million jobs since the president got here. 800,000 of those in manufacturing. look, i think a very simple definition of bidenomics -- i've worked for the president for a long time -- is that if you're helping to bake the pie, you ought to get a fair slice. of course real wage gains have to be consistent with the kinds of growth we're seeing now. look, in the economic model, one of the things that drives -- i should say in the bidenomics model, one of the things that drives middle-out, bottom-up growth are consumers doing well in a tight labor market. >> and you'd expect to see, if that's the case, strong customer spending, strong retail says, precisely what we've seen in recent data. >> are you alarmed at all by a few hints dropped by some people -- dick's sporting goods, target -- that sales are weakening a little bit? >> well, i think one of the things that we've seen in this economy is a transition to a more steady stable growth path. a couple of years ago, coming out of the pandemic-induced recession, gdp was growing north of 6%. now growing around 2%. that's pretty close to trend. that's what you'd want to see. by the way, this is an interesting thing. back in may of 2022, president biden wrote in an op-ed in "the wall street journal" that as the expansion proceeds, we're going to start seeing jobs numbers that instead of 500,000 a month are going to come in below 200,000 a month. i think he said 150,000. that's the average of the past three months, so this is very much an expected trend where the economy has to slow in terms of achieving a more steady, stable growth. taking some of the pressure off prices. but still grow enough to support an historically stable, strong labor market. that's what we've got. >> you announced -- your administration announced medicare is going to be able to negotiate the price of ten very important drugs that treat some of the most serious things that americans suffer from. you and i have known each other a long time. i'm canadian. we have no beef with big bulk buyers negotiating prices to get a better rate for xhurt. some people have called this socialist price fixing, communism, all these things. talk about this. by the way, i seem to recall donald trump saying that one of his big priorities was reducing the cost of prescription drugs for american consumers? >> right. former president trump did make that assertion. by the way, for about 33 years, presidents have tried to achieve this goal which by the way, contrary to socialism, is actually competition. it's allowing a -- one of the most important buyers in the market to compete. it's not fixing prices. it's not saying, here's the ceiling, here's the floor. it's saying, let's negotiate. and presidents on both sides of the aisle have tried to do it. biden actually got it done. let's connect this to our earlier conversation. we have inflation coming down significantly. disinflation down about two-thirds from its peak a year ago. if you look at the average the past three months, inflation is actually pretty close to where it was prepandemic. we just learned that this week. we need to build on that progress. maintaining the strong labor market, while making sure we help people ease off on price pressures. one of the best ways we can do that is through health care, through allowing medicare to negotiate for lower drug costs. that helps consumers, it helps people on medicare, it helps our budget, saving about $100 billion over 10 years. it's helpful for the deficit as well. >> $50 billion a year, over 10 years that helps me as a taxpayer. i'm not on medicare, i'm not using these drugs because i'm paying less for these drugs. thanks for making time for us, chair of the white house council of economic advisers. most would say paying less for something is a good thing. as jared and i talked about, some republicans want to persuade americans otherwise. the strategy to slam biden for lowering drug prices. 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"the financial times" and the "wall street journal," i don't think they meant it as a compliment as they started referring to my economic policies as biden nomics. guess what? it's working. we recovered all the jobs we lost during the pandemic. we've added 1 million more new jobs. the same time, inflation continues to fall. it's now around 3%. about one-third of what it was one year ago. >> president biden taking his economic message to the people, and soon he'll be adding lowering drug prices to his re-election pitch as medicare will be able to begin negotiating on some of the most widely used medications in the country. victoria difrancisco soto, dean of the clinton school of public service at university of arkansas, and former republican congressman david jolly of florida. welcome, thank you for being with us. david, the trick about inflation, i was having a little bit of a conversation with jared bernstein -- the trick is, depending where you are in life and what you're spending your money on, 3.2% might mean nothing to you. if you drive a lot, your prices are up. kids in school, your prices are higher. if you need medical care or prescription drugs, your inflation rate is substantially higher than everyone else's. jared's point was interesting, and that is, prescription drugs might be more meaningful or reducing drug costs, however that can happen, might be more meaningful to people's bottom lines than a lot of other things one can do for the economy. why are republicans struggling to get on board with this idea? as we mentioned, donald trump had actually said he wanted to bring the cost of prescription drugs down. >> yeah, republicans trying to convince voters to vote against their own interests. i think you've honed in on something very important, which is, economic confidence is personal. almost didactic between a voter and current leader in this case, joe biden. to the extent the supervoter demographics from real wages among the working class, to reduced drug costs for elderly, retired, whomever it might be, families in need of regular prescription drugs -- all of those things matter. and to me, i think the wild card in november for joe biden truly is the economy. what i continue to look at is the sentiment number, the consumer confidence number. if consumers and voters are confident that the economy is strong enough, that they're willing to continue to engage in the workplace, to take risks, to continue to purchase, that's a very good sign for joe biden. because it reflects a personal confidence that they believe the economy under this president is going in the right direction. >> victoria, presidents i often say get too much credit for some things in the economy and too much blame for some things in the economy. bill clinton got a lot of credit for low inflation, very low unemployment, low to zero deficit. biden nomics, their term, not mine -- it is working. we have lower unemployment than most places in the g20, most places in the industrialized world. we're creating factories. we're emphasizing the manufacturing of chips that we need. it's not materializing in an obvious way in terms of support for joe biden. it's hard to argue against, but it's not materializing. i'm not understanding why. >> well, in addition to, that we also see a stabilization, which i think is really important. so not only are we seeing good economic sense, but a stabilization compared to where we were just a couple of years ago. think about that in terms of pandemic. here it's an issue of tangible. the medicare drug prices is a great strategy for the biden administration to connect with potential voters. the lag is the problem. this is going to change the lives of millions and millions of people. but it's probably not going to be negotiated for a couple of months, and then the implementation of it isn't until 2026. well after the 2024 election. so it's usually the lag where the pain point is. when you have solid economic policy, what can the administration do? it's two years before 2026. two and a half. this is what comes down to campaigning. it's going to be after labor day next week. this is going to be on the biden administration to get out there and sell these policies and show them the american public, how this affects them in their kitchen table talk. >> david, the last few months and republicans, particularly in the house, mostly in the house where you spent some time -- we talked about breaching the debt ceiling. we're talking about a government shutdown. we're talking about impeaching president biden. it would be a fantastic time to come up against biden nomics with what they believe a great alternative would be. how we're going to lower drug prices, be more competitive, get wages higher, corporate profitability, all the things republicans would want to do. but kevin mccarthy and his house seem stuck in a different gear and unable to get out from in front of it. >> yeah, and it's a factor of a couple of things. they've largely abandoned any true ideology since donald trump. a post-conservative, post-idealogical movement. they know whatever they do can't pass, so they're messaging bills which is important for a political party to pass a messaging bill that would die in the senate and not be signed by joe biden. so they're focused on the red meat issues which are investigating joe biden, potentially impeaching, saying we're going to shurt down the government instead of spend a dime on something we don't want to. i the problem is and gloria framed it exactly right, joe biden has an opportunity to draw a contrast. and all elections come down to a contrast between the candidates or the parties. joe biden is saying, i'm growing an economy for all people, providing cheaper health care, better education, jobs, increased wages, i'm fighting for you on main street. republicans are a party of chaos right now, shutting down the government, vest conveying joe biden, going after the president's son. and voters are going to say, hey, i think i'll stick with the way we're going under joe biden. >> victoria, what part of this do republicans -- do democrats need to lean into? because there are tangible things that are happening, but both you and david have pointed out that it only matters if it hits the voter. where they intersect with this economy. in the news joe biden's opening factories and fixing highways and doing these things. but when you start to feel it, when your drug price goes down, when your project is under way, when somebody you know gets a job at a manufacturing facility, that's when it starts to change for you. >> it's a 24/7 reminder of what they are doing and how it will impact you. again, for a lot of these things, there's going to be that lag. and the other thing i'm going to add is highlighting the reasonableness of it. when we're looking at, for example, the gun loophole that the biden administration is trying to close. that was as a result of bipartisan administration. this is something that folks on both sides of the aisle support, independents. i think it's not only the tangibility of it but the adults in the room. this is how you make policy and you make lives better, not by throwing red meat, not by going on rampaging about social or moral issues, but about those things that -- the closing of the gun loopholes, lowering drug prices. >> a pleasure to see you both. thank you, we appreciate your time. the russia/ukraine war intensifies from the air and on the battlefield. we're looking at ukraine's slow-moving counteroffensive and the additions to their arsenal from the west. why using new weapons might actually take them a little while. detect this: living with hiv, i learned that i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. serious or life-threatening lactic acid buildup and liver problems can occur. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems or if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. dovato may harm an unborn baby. most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. detect this: i stay undetectable with fewer medicines. ask your doctor about switching to dovato. bladder leak underwear has one job. i just want to feel protected! always discreet protects like no other. with double leak guards that help prevent gushes escaping from the sides. and a rapid dry core that locks in your heaviest gush quickly for up to zero leaks. always discreet- the protection we deserve! if you have heart disease and are on a statin, lowering cholesterol can be hard. diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by over 50% and keep it low with two doses a year. common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, urinary tract infection, diarrhea, chest cold, pain in legs or arms, and shortness of breath. ask your doctor about twice-yearly leqvio. lower. longer. leqvio. ♪ j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started? 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these f-16s are training on them. it's going to take six months for the ukrainians to learn how to operate those effectively, but one of the reasons why western european and nato countries are a little resistant to this is we've seen some of these ukrainian drone goes into russia, into moscow. there is a real fear of this escalating into a war into russian lines. people i talk to say so what? russia took a war into ukrainian lines. why is that an extra provocation? some people in countries' capitals think that might be a step too far. >> that's right. one of those capitals may be washington, d.c. and i want to say clearly that i agree with general mccaffery in terms of my own position. i think the attack should have been delivered a long time ago, the long range missile systems that we've so far not, but the situation is the way you describe, that european and other allies are worried about western equipment and particularly this system, the attack guns, being used to strike inside russian territory, not crimea. crimea is part of ukraine, but inside russian territory, but you know what the ukrainian response to that has been? one, keep reconsidering, but now they are developing their own systems and what you saw a few days ago i think is what is going to come. that was a ukrainian-made rocket flying hundreds of miles inside russia attacking military targets inside russia on this airfield. that i think when you said the war is escalating, that's what we should watch for more to come. i want to point out that we're not attacking civilians. mr. putin, when he is attacked, he fires back by attacking civilians inside ukraine. ukraine is attacking military targets inside russia. >> general mccaffery, i want you to ask you to give me an evaluation what's going on in the russian leadership and russian military. we witnessed two months after that sort of march on moscow by yevgeny prigozhin who is apparently dead in a plane crash because we cannot independently confirm it or have seen any independent verification of anything, but apparently yevgeny prigozhin is dead. what is the state of the russian military and the relationship between vladimir putin and his top leadership as far as you can tell? >> i think the russian military are deeply flawed and it's not fixed in less than ten to 15 years. they're senior leadership are absolutely bone-headed first order. they have strategically lost this war already. there's just no way the russian armed forces will be able to seize control of all of ukraine. i think the other thing is we've seen a tremendous against this war by males. several thousand fled russia due to conscription. russia upped the age of conscription to age 50. so i think the morale of the russian armed forces is low. the ukrainians have effectively used clustering munitions fired by 155-millimeter artillery and have caused devastating casualties to the russians and i think that putin basically no longer has a strategic reserve to commit. having said that, i still go back to the point that russian air force is probably five times greater than ukraine's and it's a 3-1 advantage for the russians in ground combat power. so we've got to give them, meaning us, nato, the technological edge and deep strike operations to break out of this world war i trench warfare with devilish clever mine fields the russians are laying, very effective artillery. >> guys, i appreciate your analysis, as always. i would be hoping i would not be depending on it as long as we have been 555 days into this war. sound like we'll have a lot more to talk about. thanks as always. we're back for another hour of "the beat" right after this. because i switched to every-other-month cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. now when i have people over, hiv pills aren't on my mind. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or if you're taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. it feels good to just live in the moment. with every-other-month cabenuva, i'm good to go. ask your doctor about cabenuva today. hi, i'm john and i'm from dallas, texas. my wife's name is joy. we've been married 45 years. i'm taking a two-year business course. i've been studying a lot. i've been producing and directing for over 50 years. it's a very detailed thing and the pressure's all on me. i noticed i really wasn't quite as sharp as i was. my boss told me about prevagen and i started taking it. i feel sharper. my memory's a lot better. it just works. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. 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"more than a dozen people nationally have been charged with threatening election workers by a justice department unit trying to stem the tide of violent and graphic threats against people who count and secure the vote." government employees are being bombarded with threats, even in normally quiet periods between elections secretaries of state and experts warn. the a.p. also reports some blame falsehoods spread by donald trump and his allies and fear 2024 will be worse. >> it's a constant state of anxiety that we're in and whether it's people gathering outside my home in the middle of the night yelling at me to come outside and face them so that i could seek justice for the 2020 election cycle or it's phone calls that sometimes i get, voicemails that i hear after putting my kid to bed at night saying we can't wait to see you hanging from a tree. those are all real and it's something we've lived with for years now. we also know the storm is here and will continue to be here through it. >> the report comes as members of the far right group the proud boys learn of their sentences for their actions related to their actions of january 6th. today two members convicted of various charges learned of their punishments. ethan nordean was sentenced to 18 years in prison. he led a group of 200 to the capitol. he and the oath keepers leader stewart rhodes who also got 18 years received the longest january sentences so far. dominic pezzola was sentenced to ten years behind bars, the first person into the capitol. we're watching for the next steps in the prosecutions of donald trump, particularly in those cases accusing him of trying to overturn the 2020 election. in the georgia indictment we're seeing defendants make moves to separate their cases and enter not guilty pleas. that includes a key defendant ken chesebro, the alleged architect of the fake elector scheme now pleading not guilty. rudy giuliani is pleading not guilty and also foregoing his formal arraignment. let's lead off our panel. the co-anchor of pbs news hour, former fbi special agent clint watts, consultant at the fbi's counterterrorism division and a national security analyst, former new york prosecutor and civil rights attorney charles coleman. charles, make a little bit of sense of the various things going on in these georgia courtrooms. mark meadows trying to get his case separated to federal court, a couple other people trying to do that, too, saying they were working in their capacity as federal government officials and that others who were just trying to get their case separated from everyone else, including donald trump. what's the significance of these things and chances of them happening? >> first of all, in no way am i surprised around these individuals trying to throw each other under the bus. this is something i expected and one of the reasons you're seeing this is because you're looking at a rico statute which makes it much easier for fani willis and the fulton county d.a.'s office to prosecute all these individuals who may not necessarily have been directly involved in so long as they can establish a connection to the overall conspiracy and move that forward. that's why you're seeing these individuals not only throw each other under the bus, but also try to separate themselves. one thing that's important to note, ali, is while all this is happening, particularly in fulton county, donald trump and his defense attorneys will sit back and let this play out. why? because it gives them more time and feeds their theory and practice and strategy around delay, which is essentially what they want to do. in terms of what will happen with each of these defendants, everything is different. i think with mark meadows the likelihood of him going to federal court is very slim. i do think sidney powell and kenneth chesebro make some interesting arguments why they should be separated, but all this will cause fani willis to reexamine how she wants to prosecute these cases. during the initial press conference she talked about wanting to try all 19 co- defendants together. if these individuals are separated, which may happen, she'll have to recalibrate everything. so all those will make for a very interesting call for the fulton county d.a.'s office. >> for those of us still on twitter or x, you don't see donald trump that much. the first thing he posted was his mugshot of which he's made a lot of money. on his own social media platform he's been rage posting for days now, video after video, dozens of things a day. he is not showing himself as someone different in this whole thing. he has been warned by a couple judges to be careful about what he says in case it were to intimidate or threaten participants in any of these trials. i don't know if these taking any of that advice. there's nothing remotely chasten about the former president after four indictments. >> ali, he hasn't changed his tune at all. his message has been the same, that every single one of these prosecutions, every single one of these efforts is a witch hunt, politically motivated. i think that shows you who he's speaking to on these truth social posts and we know that message still very much resonates. we started talking about those threats against election workers. those are not threats based on any specific incident or specific reports of real illicit activity among election workers. those are based on the lies of the stolen 2020 election. those are based on conspiracies of some deep state that's out to undermine our democracy. the thing to on remember is as the michigan secretary of state mentioned, they do seem to be getting worse. the impact that that language is having that mr. trump continues to spread online, that continues to resonate with a significant portion of the american electorate is that it has those real world impacts. you have people leaving those election worker positions. some one in five election officials now say that they themselves have experienced some kind of threat of harassment or intimidation and then you have to ask yourself what happens if those people leave those positions? well, you have folks moving in either with a partisan or political agenda of their own or people who just don't have that same level of experience and we know that will be true going into 2024. so those threats impact election officials which then in turn impacts our democracy. >> that's a huge point because these are the unseen people. you go, cast your ballot. they're there counting. you don't see them. they're not famous for anything. they're not civil servants really. they're one step beyond being volunteers. they generally speaking don't earn take a lot of money for participating in this process. they're people who believe in civic activity. if we thin those ranks, our actual ability to run elections safely the way they're supposed to be run is going to be compromised by people threatening them. >> that's right. we've seen studies, folks like the brennan center for justice have looked into these kinds of things. not only have we seen a marked increase in the amount of intimidation and threats of harassment election officials and local workers face, but i think some one in five election workers going into 2024 will only have begun their service after 2020. that's both their level of experience and also the political sort of climate in which they've come to those jobs. >> clint watts, i want to talk about the proud boys, their sentences. they didn't get anywhere near the sentences the prosecutors wanted. ten years, 12 years, 18 years of federal time, this is real prison time. what do you make of it? do you think it acts as a deterrent and as somebody who spent a lot of time thinking about counterterrorism and the sort of terrorist extremist violence we face in this country, in a country that doesn't have a domestic terrorism act, you could look at these convictions as pretty impressive. >> yeah, ali. those are some heavy sentences. i think it will have significant downward pressure on any organized group. if you are someone who has something to lose and you're thinking about going to an insurrection or showing up at a point in time related to these upcoming trials, i have a feel you're probably sitting at home tweeting or posting on some sort of social media application. you're not showing up in person. i can see in terms of the online environment the last two years there are far fewer people mobilizing groups like the oath keepers and proud basis. it's not happening in the same way. if you look at the hearings, some of those criminally convicted are saying no one fought for me. i think that's remarkable. they feel betrayed and do believe the election was stolen or did up to a point and don't anymore. what i'm most worried about now is the random act of terror. it is the one that doesn't have anything to lose, firmly believes in the ideology under any sort of evidence will never change their mind. that's the ones i look for now. we've seen some incidents of this, the gentleman in utah making threats online. the fbi goes out and there's a hostile situation. fortunately the fbi had to interdict somebody. i think that's what we need to look for. it will be the attack, the locations will be known, located to these trials, election or rally. the problem is the attacker won't be. that's very difficult for law enforcement the next two years. >> charles, that's kind of what we saw in jacksonville, somebody with some kind of politicized beef, in that case a racist beef, but that is not uncommon throughout these domestic extremists because this is america. you can have these kind of beefs all over the world. you often can't get heavy weaponry in carry it out, but in markey you actually can. this is a major threat. there are a lot of people including the fbi director who told congress this is the thing we most fear in this country, but we're still a bit behind in our ability to deal with it. >> very much so, ali. i think you raise a great point in juxtaposing what we're talking about with jacksonville and other pockets of violence around the country. this rhetoric and dialogue does not remain in the political arena. it bleeds over into civil rights, into a number of different segments that involve so many different parts of american society and american life because what we are seeing is the rhetoric itself is growing tentacles and it's sprouting to be and going into areas that talk about the way that we live our lives far beyond the ballot box, beyond any actual political party and any elected official. that is the danger of what we have come to with respect to playing with controversy and stoking fears in our political dialogue. it does not stay in the political arena. it has gone to so many different areas and facets of american life. it's a civil rights issue, a public safety issue, a political issue. it is all these things at the same time and must be addressed as such because if not, we are going to see it get worse. >> amna, how do we address this because when your terrorism or threat to safety and national security comes from an identifiable group overseas, it becomes very easy to identify. you know who the enemy is and the rhetoric is and you know what the infrastructure both legal and law enforcement and military looks like. that's what our problem is in this country. we've got an actual threat that we're all coming around to kind of understanding is an actual threat to both our politics and our daily safety. that is domestic violence extremism, but we don't really know what solving it looks like. >> i think the key part of the way you phrase that was we're all kind of coming around to this. this is one of the key issues i hear again and again because you and i and so many other journalists covered the government and the u.s. response after 9/11. it was a whole of government response. >> right. >> we stood up an entirely new government agency, now the largest government agency. there was no effort spared in saving americans and keeping americans safe from that threat as it was identified. we did not have the same response to domestic violence here in america. that threat has been steadily growing over the years and there are a number of sources within homeland security and other relevant agencies who have told me over the years they were slow to recognize it. they were slow to see it for the threat that it was and our government has been slow to respond. they are trying to make up for lost time now, but the cat's out of the bag. so at this stage i think it's very much a question of how far america is willing to go to save itself from what many people identify is the single greatest threat to our nation and democracy right now, which is this domestic violence extremism. >> let me ask you, clint, when you talk about stocastic violence, the former president of the united states has been warned by two judges and charles and other experts will say it's hard to sort of enforce don't post things that are overtly threatening to witnesses, participants, judges, lawyers, whatever the case is. my nonlegal view is he's already busted through those rules. your point is more important in that it's not donald trump's threats of these people. it's the response out there to people who will do to attorneys and witnesses in this case what you heard the michigan secretary of state saying, that people come outside her house and say they want her to come out and see her hanging from a tree or lower level people who are involved in elections. donald trump is doing a thing that is tried and true in history. he's putting it out there. you handle it as you see fit. >> yeah. it's the autopilot of terrorism. it's ironic, ali, i'm sure if we were on here in 2008, '09, '10 talking about a guy named anwar aliki. that was always a bone of contention on how we administer justice in these cases. what you're seeing here with others arrested during the insurrection is they now come to realize the election was not stolen. however, at any moment in america there's someone that has a violent -- you know, some sort of motive internally they want to pursue violence and they're just looking for something or someone to tip them off. i think the key things to look for is do we see specificity in terms of the type of attack? do we see a target? is a target being designated? it has been much lighter from elected officials. they're being more vague i think because they see what's going on and i think the other part is time. january 6th, we knew it was coming. we could see it. i think you and i knew it was coming more than even the federal government did. it was pretty obvious it was going to be a rather violent day. when we look forward to the election, i think the good news is a lot of the federal agencies have woken up. state and local have woken up. they need a lot of resources and help. i think on the stocastic attacks it's can we rely it to law enforcement so they can do something about it. >> charles, i got about a minute left, but you're good at it. a thing hanging around in the constitution a really long time, 14th amendment section 3 that says if you took an oath to the u.s. government and have an insurrection against the u.s. government, you can no longer hold military, state or federal office. people are talking about this a lot in the last two, three weeks about the fact this would prevent donald trump from being president. your quick thoughts? >> ali, for as interesting as a theory this might be, at present right now given what has been done and not done with respect to charges against donald trump, i don't see it moving forward. i think it is a principally interesting argument, but ultimately without an actual charge of insurrection from the doj to support this, i think there's a big hurdle for anyone pushing this sort of theory to get beyond in terms of actualizing it. as far as legal theory and debate is concerned, very, very interesting, but for anyone looking to see this transform into a barrier for donald trump, i don't see that as being very likely. >> guys, thanks very much. i appreciate your time tonight. a quick note before we go, we have collected all four complete indictments against the former president and made it into a book. it's edited, has an introduction written by yours truly and provides insight. you can order it now. to listen to the indictments now, scan the qr code on your screen and i will read them to you in their entirety word for toward in this voice. coming up, exclusive msnbc reporting on the white house setting up a war room to deal with possible impeachments for republicans. our political panel is here on how the house gop always takes things to the extreme and how seriously we should actually take their threats. later presidential historian weighing in on another busy week of bad legal use for donald trump and the former 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(alternate voice) poligrip power hold + seal gives our strongest hold and 5x food seal. if your mouth could talk, it would ask for... poligrip. i may be known for my legendary football career, but truth is, i love a bunch of sports. the only trouble is knowing where to find them. that's why i got xfinity. so, i can easily find and watch whatever sport i'm into all in one place without missing a thing. even if it's football, australian football, or football football. in a word—it's fitz-credible. i got to trademark that one. this season, eligible xfinity rewards members can get up to $100 off nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now. the 1st day of september and one word you'll hear a lot this month is shutdown. some house republicans are apparently prepared to shut down the government to get their way in an argument over spending. the white house is asking congress for short term funding to avoid a shutdown. it's not the only big scary word republicans are throwing around these days. the other one is impeachment. the white house is taking it seriously. one aide tells nbc news the administration has formed a war room made up of two dozen lawyers, legislative aides and communication staffers to respond to the gop push for an impeachment inquirely into president joe biden. with me tonight michael beschloss and reed galen, co- founder of the lincoln project who has worked on a number of campaigns. gentlemen, good to see you. reed, let's start with you. there are 18 republicans who were elected in districts that joe biden won. they are not going to be interested not only to alienate their own constituents, but because this is kind of stupid, but an impeachment is an impeachment. it takes time, air time, gets news. nobody wants one. tell me about this strategy for the republican party. it's impeachment. it's shutdown. it used to be debt ceiling a few months ago. not a whole lot that looks like policy or governing, but there's a lot of this. >> yeah. there's no strategy here, ali. it's about trying to figure out how they can dismantle joe biden's chances at reelection which if he runs against donald trump, will be it a hard fought campaign? it would, but he should win. i would say you mention those 18 republicans, the "problem solvers," people like brian fitzpatrick from pennsylvania or don bacon from nebraska. they've got two bad choices to make. one is are they going to vote to shut down the government? this is only a republican thing in the last ten or 15 years. it never ever works out for them. secondly, an impeachment, the president is not going to be convicted by the united states senate and no one has been able to show joe biden has done anything wrong even by accident with all of these hearings they've done the last eight months or so they've been in office. so what i would say is this is desperation. this is also mccarthy trying to keep a promise to the wackiest of the wacky wing of his. let's be clear. kevin mccarthy only has one real constituency, the hyper wealthy and corporate america, and they are both telling him you darn well better not shut down this government. >> the problem is, nonsensical though it is, the white house has to take the potential for impeachment hearing seriously, breaks my heart they're setting a war room and there are people whose energy and minds are going to be on that because we actually have things we have to deal with in this country and left to their own devices i would think some things could get done. i liked hearing about a discussion about medicare and drug prices this week. i like hearing about unemployment and 3.2% unemployment versus 9% unemployment. democrats do have -- to reed's point, there's no strategy on republicans side, but democrats have to have a counter strategy. >> they do. on the one hand i appreciate what the white house is doing and saying look, we got to take this seriously because we need to make sure we can push back against whatever the republicans are doing. i go back to an old political adage which is if you're explaining, you're losing. to me the republicans will have to spend the entire year trying to explain to the american people why they should impeach joe biden with no evidence, why they should bring the country and the government to the brink of a shutdown again with no credible evidence while at the same time democrats are talking about reducing drug prices. we do have good jobs numbers. we do have low unemployment numbers. so this unified democratic caucus can talk all day long about policies and legislation that has positivity affected the lives of americans and on the flip side what are the republicans doing and just another sort of operational point i want to make about speaker mccarthy, one of the key important parts of his job description is to protect your members. so if there are 18 members of congress that -- republican members of congress that won in biden's district, what is he doing to protect those members to hang onto his majority, especially when so many of those seats can be picked up by democrats in new york and california? are you protecting those members by actually doing something or governing in such a way that you're not putting them on the defensive? he clearly doesn't care about that for all that was said before in terms of where his influences are. so i think -- >> that's an interesting point because there are 18 problem solvers republicans who don't want to go along with this. there are slightly more of the other side, the chaos caucus, whatever you want to call them, the ones who held him hostage when he was trying to become speaker for 15 votes. they're actually in relatively safe constituencies. they don't need the cover that kevin mccarthy has to offer. the don bacons and other guys like that do. they could benefit from kevin mccarthy demonstrating to their constituents and to his other constituencies that the republican party can offer meaningful solutions and debate and alternatives to what the republican party is doing now. why not look after those 18 as opposed to the chaos caucus? >> because the 18 are the ones that are actually the base of his support. they're the ones who probably voted for him first and would vote for him again. these other 22 file a discharge petition against him. one thing we should remember -- i want to go back, ali. there is a strategy. the reason they want to impeach joe biden aside from the fact mccarthy wants to keep these crazies happy is they have to make joe biden as bad as donald trump. they have to create a false equivalency. when you see this start, you will see nothing but hunter biden and awful things about hunter biden and the biden crime family because this is what they know. maga and the republican party top to bottom understand this. trump is unelectable in his current form. he's absolutely beatable by joe biden in his current form. so biden must be as bad. he must be as corrupt. he must be as dirty as donald trump so when they finally go out to independent voters, they can say look, it doesn't really matter. i can tell you this. do you want your taxes to go up? do you want more woke? do you want more trans? you know what? joe biden's just the same. he's just as bad as trump. let's really look at your beliefs. is he really an american? all this other stuff. it's all back to culture war and this bs, but the truth is at the end of the day republicans nowadays don't care about governing. it's all a performing bs show, all a circus. that's all they care about and to your point, the people least vulnerable, the marjorie taylor greenes of the world are so gerrymandered they'll win their races forever, so they don't care about anything but protecting the dear leader. >> marjorie taylor greene used both those words together. she said she will not vote to continue to fund the government unless there's an impeachment. the truth of this is kevin mccarthy said there will be a vote in the house on the impeachment. i never know what that means because to reed's point, a vote on impeachment will not succeed because no democrat won't vote for it and these 18 republicans won't and there might be other republicans who say this is just a waste of time. a lot of republicans have gone on fox and said, "we waste a lot of stuff that isn't important that voters don't care about." on the other hand, kevin mccarthy's trying to sound like he might be reasonable trying to corral this whole thing. what is he doing behind the scenes that you can tell to not have those chaos caucus people define the next year and a half? people have to run for election again. there's an election coming up. >> right, right. the only thing i can think he's doing behind the scenes is to kick the can down the road a bit and give himself some more time to flesh out, time to actually talk to these individual members and say look, this is not at all good for us. time to see if there's another candidate besides donald trump that actually gains momentum and starts to poke their head out in this gop primary so that you don't have to start thinking about or talking about donald trump as much. all those things that he actually might be doing is really just a function of trying to give themselves some more time and to reed's point, as that's happening to try to make the case that joe biden is as bad as donald trump. i think all that just honestly falls on deaf ears because i go back to the earlier point. when you have a leader like hakeem jeffries who is not only leading in the house, but he is much more active in what's happening in the states to try to take the house back, when you see that kind of activity and you recognize that so many policies that are mobilizing democrats now, democrats have the opportunity to take the most draconian of them and attach them to every republican that's running down ballot. with that in mind, regardless of mccarthy's strategy, again i go back to the point i just don't see where it's protecting the members to maintain their majority all to the benefit of democrats. >> yeah. you guys are strategists. there's something that isn't really as clear strategy as we understand. thanks to both of you, good to see you. we appreciate your time. books that have sat on the library shelves for years without a single challenge or complaint are getting increasingly banned. the author of one of those books, the important book, "out of darkness," joins me next to talk about her quest against book bans. like here. and here. not so much here. if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life. ♪ farxiga ♪ and farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. farxiga can help you keep living life. ask your doctor for farxiga for chronic kidney disease. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ farxiga ♪ i need it cool at night. astrazenyou trying to iceo help. me out of the bed? baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999. plus free home delivery when you add a base shop now only at sleep number. millions of kids across the country are going back to school right now. many will go to their school's libraries looking for new worlds to get lost, new characters to know, new stories to show them a different part of the word, but some students in texas came back to school to find the libraries closed. a district in fort worth closed school libraries to students the first two weeks of classes so school officials could review titles for sexually explicit or violent content in accordance with a state law that was supposed to be in effect today but was put on hold. more than 100 books have been pulled off the shelves for review. returning to the book ban club, ashley hope perez, her book "out of darkness" one of the 100 books removed from the fort worth school district library. good to see you again. thank you for being with us. >> always a pleasure. >> why was your book removed? >> well, my book is among, as you named, over 100 and if you ask why in this particular instance, it's because they've removed it other places and i think that's one of the most important things for folks to understand about where we are in book banning in 2023 is that school leaders and folks in these communities are not even evaluating the books for themselves based on their actual concerns. they're just copying lists from other places. if you want to rewind to 2021 and why was my book banned then, i can answer that, too. >> tell us. there are a lot of parents who not involved in the story would say okay, if you're taking books out that are violent or sexually explicit, that's appropriate. tell me why yours fell into this category. >> yes. thank you for asking it. the thing is it's about what violence and what sexual content and which characters because i always draw folks' attention to the fact i'm a literature professor. literature engages with human experiences and the reality is the bible, faulkner, hemingway, shakespeare, we can keep going, these works all include violence and sexual content because those are human experiences. my book is literature as well and it does engage with harsh realities. what's interesting and telling about these attacks is how much they focus on the experience of black, queer, nonwhite, nondominant identities. the white middle class straight characters, they just don't seem to bother these folks no matter how much sex those characters are having or how violent their actions. >> you said something in an article in an essay for npr in which you say to engage honestly with the realities of the time and of my characters' lives, i had to grapple with systemic racism, personal prejudice, sexual abuse and domestic violence. these are uncomfortable topics. there's a thing out there, anti- crt which isn't really anti-crt at all, but these whole ideas don't let kids read something that will make them uncomfortable. some of the best literature in the world, some of the best authors like you who i had on the book club talk about the fact if you don't experience disdiscomfort through books, how will you learn about the experiences of others? >> yeah. who gets to have the privilege of comfort, right? i think that one of the things i want folks to be considering is what does it mean to put hypothetical discomfort of some children over the real suffering and experiences of other children, right? to say well, your potential discomfort, your child's potential discomfort, is more important than naming and responding to the realities of americans whose stories haven't been told and i think what we know about removing books that portray difficult experiences for young people is that that does real harm to real kids who need places to recognize harm, for example, sexual abuse. if you see it in a book and you have opportunities to discuss it with a trusted adult, you're far more likely to be able to name it when you encounter it yourself or have a friend or loved one who is experiencing it. as a sexual abuse survivor, i really wish i had had the opportunity to recognize in literature the experience that i endured. >> and that's something a number of authors tell me because some of the things even in their fictional writing is auto biographical and kids email them. we've had authors tell me there are kids thinking about taking their own lives and finally saw in a book their experience and say i feel seen. somebody saw me. i'm not a weird outlier and you make some kid's life. >> well, let's talk about the fact that sure, there are books like mine that take kids to difficult topics that are historical, that are real, that have shaped the communities that they're living in, but you know what? these are also stories of transformation and healing. it's not just about wallowing in pain. it's about different possibilities. what i hear from kids who read "out of darkness" is this is a book that made them hungry for justice and wanting to create a better world with room for more folks. >> great to talk to you again. thank you for making a return appearance for us, ashley hope perez, author of "out of darkness." it's my latest episode of velshi banned book club. you can scan the qr code on the screen to listen wherever you get your podcasts. coming up, trial date, proud boys sentenced, we sum up the week that was when we come back. we, we, we have had.h. our politicians have failed. working for lobbyists, not us. we need your voice to pass the kids online safety act this fall. join us. join us. join us. join us. ♪♪ let's lead the way. how can you sleep on such a firm setting? gab, mine is almost the same as yours. ♪♪ almost is just another word for not as good as mine. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add a base. shop now only at sleep number. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. 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( ♪♪ ) arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. rsv can be serious. talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. rsv? make it arexvy. i need it cool at night. you trying to ice me out of the bed? talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999. plus free home delivery when you add a base shop now only at sleep number. been a busy week of legal news for donald trump and his allies, a judge setting a march trial date in the federal election interference case. trump pleaded not guilty in the georgia case and waived his arraignment. former chief of staff mark meadows wanted his case moved to federal court. the celebrated author and presidential historian michael beschloss is here to give us some perspective. michael, it's great to see you and i need to end my week with you. you have to look at these things and place them in some historical context. for the rest of us, it's just a treadmill. it never stops. where are we now? we have four indictments of the president of the united states, multiple charges, they are serious, serious matters. his tone has changed. it's on the hard and really. he has moved and evolved from bombastic to something that seems more sinister and serious than that into something that is now almost martyrdom. he is selling pictures of his mugshot. >> right, and that shows what depth he has to send, because if you're in a situation anywhere in life, the best argument is i will not surrender. that sounds really more like al capone than george washington. that is only now before the trials began. ali, i wish i could tell you that this reminds me of some other moment in history, but you're about to see something that we have never seen before, a recent american president, a very probably the nominee of the major party, donald trump, next year, going on trial, perhaps this fall, perhaps in georgia, with live tv. we've never seen anything like this before. the attention that this will get compared to the rest of the campaign is going to be a standing, and then a trial presumably the first half of next year for waging an insurrection, a coup d'état against the government at the indicted states that is about to equal, in my view, jefferson davis and the confederacy. this is something that we have never seen before. we will learn an awful lot. >> we are. you can sit here and read the indictments. i've read the indictments and listen to. you can watch it there and up the cameras and the georgia trial. you can watch. in the end, reasonable people have come to the conclusion that these folks were up to no good, and there is a moment to seize here to bring the democracy back. there are a lot of people who don't share that view. 11 and a half million dollars in a week since donald trump released his mugshot is what he raced for his legal defense by selling his mugshot. i don't know. in a normal world, i don't think there would be value to selling your mugshot to anyone. i think it would be rather high, right? >> you and i go to jail, i hope it never happens. >> we're not selling our mugshots. >> i was going to say, we had to find a way to pay our legal bills that does nothing to do with black t-shirts that say, never surrender, right, ali? here is the case that our system will be tested, especially the televised crowd in georgia. here is the case where donald trump and his coconspirators really being charged with is trying to steal the voting rights of people in georgia and threw them, the rest of the people in the united states and if this is on tv and americans who like trump or hey trump, who are deciding, our watch this in realtime, here is a primary source. we're not relying on what he and as people say once they got out at the courthouse or deepfakes or the increasing ability to get things in the political bloodstream that are not true. >> i just want to play something, the evolution of donald trump from march 4th until the georgia indictment. >> in 2016, i declared, i am your voice. today, i add that i am your warrior, i am your justice, and for those who have been long betrayed, i am your retribution. in the end, they're not coming after me, they're coming after you, and i am just standing in their way. here i am, standing in their way. >> every time the radical left, marxists, communists, fascists indict me, i consider it a great, great badge of honor. i do, i do. [applause] i am being indicted for you. i am being indicted for you. >> using the example that you and i talked about, if you and i ever get indicted for anything, i am not sure i can get away with the. i am doing it for you. who are these people that are cheering for him? i didn't do anything, i did not commit a foul crime. >> did the music a totally devoted to, you proudly divided for you. i am not sure that will earn him much money, but this is a serious as they can possibly get because, what is at stake in november of next year. donald trump has told us if he becomes president again, he wants a presidential dictatorship without much regard and congress, without much regard to reports, that much people in the executive branch who will ever say now and also locking a lot of people up. this is much more the language of mussolini and other fascist and dictators throughout history, and anything we have seen them in the american story. all i am saying is anyone who does not understand what this means, a year from november, we could have fascists, could have a dictator. that is what all this really means, and what happens between now and then, largely as a result of how people react today trials, is going to determine the fate. >> michael, thank you for joining us tonight, thank you at-home for joining us for the two and a half addition of the beat with ari melber. all in with chris hayes begins right now. all in with chri s hayes begins type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. and you may lose weight. adults lost up to 14 pounds. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. ask your health care provider about the ozempic® tri-zone. you may pay as little as $25. nice footwork. man, you're lucky, watching live sports never used to be this easy. now you can stream all your games like it's nothing. yes! [ cheers ] yeah! woho! running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into >> good evening from new york, when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. i am chris hayes. today, a federal judge sentenced one of the most infamous figures in the january 6th attack on the capital to ten years in prison. proud boy dominic pezzola was convicted of six felonies for his actions that they, along with several other members of the far-right -- onja

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