arraignment. trump lawyers jena ellis and sidney powell have already done so. so have ray smith. the man whose name is at the top of the indictment. we're talking about donald trump. with the formal arraignment set for wednesday of next week, we will be monitoring for any additional pleas who have not yet filed one. this comes as we're learning more about what appears to be a crucial mistake, or mistakes during testimony by another trump co-defendant, mark meadows, trump's final white house chief of staff. he took the stand monday in a hearing regarding his request to have the case against him moved out of fulton county and into federal court. yesterday evening, meadows and district attorney fani willis filed responses to a request from federal judge steve jones on the issue of removal. in her brief, d.a. fani willis nails mark meadows for falsely claiming he didn't have any role in the fake elector's scheme. after insisting that he did not play any role in the coordination of slates of fake electors throughout several states, the defendant was forced to acknowledge under cross-examination that he had given direction to a campaign official in this regard. what's worse for meadows is that his contradiction, the one that fani willis highlights to the judge, came during questioning with his own lawyers. with meadows being forced to admit that he got involved because he didn't want to get yelled at by donald trump. really. here's how the transcript goes down. meadows attorney. quote. why did you care whether the electors were coordinated? meadows. so about this time, maybe on this given day, it was mentioned to me that there was litigation going on that you had to have a provisional or conditional elector. should a court or should a legislature rule that you can't just have one set of electors, you had to have a provisional set. what i didn't want to happen was for the campaign to prevail in certain areas and then have not this. it was brought -- meadows attorney interrupts then, why did you not want that to happen? meadows:because i knew i would get yelled at if we had not -- meadows attorney gets interrupted again. by whom? by the president of the united states. with trump and his co-defendants facing at this point pretty devastating legal risk, what has the head of the alleged criminal enterprise been up to, you wonder? well, we have the answer. raging on social media, of course. he is attacking the judge in the federal 2020 election case. the one being brought by jack smith. trump is lashing out at new york attorney letitia james which will be in october. he's been trashing the very system of justice that undergirds our democracy, and at this hour, threatens him. in other words, what has become totally usual and normal for donald trump. trump and his closest allies under increasing legal scrutiny is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. joining us now, the former acting assistant attorney general of the department of justice. she supervised the counter intelligence unit now leading the trump documents investigation and case. he and mary are both msnbc legal analysts. tim o'brien is here. senior executive editor for bloomberg opinion and author of trump nation. an msnbc political analyst, host of the bloomberg podcast crash course. mary, i start with you and this meadows moment. what do you think was going on there? how does it come to this point where meadows, who we've talked about almost incessantly, has seemed to case is by and seems to trim up in monday's hearing? >> it you have two things going on with the pieces in your transcript that you highlighted. first was fani willis's team on cross-examination catching him in what arguably is a lie. could potentially with knowledge and intent be perjury, which is where he had pretty directly answered that, no, he had no role in coordinating the false elector scheme, and then later, when showed this email that pretty clearly said, he was directing campaign official jason miller to make sure that there was coordination of this. that seems pretty contradictory to what he had just testified to under oath. and i think a lot of people are talking about that mistake right there. and how could he possibly have not realized that that email was out there and how could he possibly have not been prepped for that in his preparation for him taking the stand. the second is this back and forth with his lawyers during his own redirect after fani willis's team got to cross examine him, his lawyer gets a chance to rehabilitate him. so that's why his attorney went down the road he went, and i think this reflects something of a strategy, which is a strategy to go ahead and admit the things he was doing was political, notwithstanding the claims of fani willis with almost to removal that he's not entitled to removal. his actions were not those of a chief of staff within the official duties. they were instead political activities barred by the hatch act. but his attorneys in their own motion, motions to dismiss and in this hearing, seem to be willing to take that risk and admit that this is political activity. and what we really come down to in the final portion you quoted is, in a way, blame it on mr. trump, right? he's doing what he felt like he had to do because he's being bullied by the president here serves. so there's a lot of facets of this here. i think he's digging some holes for himself and he will have some of this come back and be detrimental to his immunity argument that he intends to make if and when he is able to obtain removal. there are other things going on here, too. and multipronged strategy that doesn't seem rock solid to many of us taking a look at it. >> listen, mary, this may be a question borne from my lack of a legal education. but my understanding is that his presence in federal court, his argument is that he was acting as a federal official. that the function of white house chief of staff is a federal role. he's claiming directly in his own voice and questioning from his own lawyers that he was carrying out a campaign action. and campaigns in this country are state by state by state by state efforts. you do not win a campaign -- anyone who has worked on a campaign knows you're not running a national campaign. you're running about 20 state campaigns. by saying in his own voice, i was working on a campaign, in this case in georgia, he seem to take away his own argument for moving the indictment to federal court. >> he tries in his pleadings, particularly in the response he filed late yesterday afternoon, to make a distinction here between what he says was within his role, organizing phone calls, organizing meetings, having to be with the president all of the time. no matter what the president was doing. so if the president was doing blatant political things, it was still his job as the chief of staff to be with him. that's the argument he's trying to create in his motion to remove. again, based on what you said, which is the law. he can remove to federal court if he was acting within the scope of his official duties as a federal officer and has a plausible federal defense. in doing so, in other papers and in this redirect, he has admitted that he himself was at least doing some things that were affiliated with the campaign. in fact, in his motion to dismiss, filed in federal court prematurely, i might add. he hasn't even been removed yet. he's just trying to remove it. he makes the argument that all of his speech was political speech, which is not only part of his official duties as he claims, but also, protected by the first amendment. so he's inconsistent here, i think, in the position he's taken. but i think he is discounting the hatch act. the hatch act that prevents and forbids federal government employees from being engaged in campaign activities. he's really discounting that in his legal arguments. and we'll see how the judge, you know, addresses all of this. because i agree with you. there are inconsistencies and i think he is hurting himself on some of the arguments he's making. >> so glen, i worked on a campaign and the campaign paid for me to fly around with an incumbent president because the white house chief of staff is not the person that sets up campaign-related phone calls. the campaign staffer, who the campaign pays fare for has to do anything campaign-related. so that's a flagrant lie. you can interview ten former campaign managers from either political party and they'll tell you, there is no role for a white house chief of staff in a presidential campaign. especially one that you're trying to cheat and overthrow. i mean, that is just false. and i wonder what you make of the lawyering that's going on here. >> you know, as mary said, this may be a strategic decision but it sure looks like a poor decision. even if mark meadows wins the removal battle and somehow convinss judge jones to transfer the case from state court to federal court, it sure looks like he's going to lose the war and he has given the opponent, i won't say the enemy, he's given fani willis's prosecutors even more ammunition to defeat him. in war. i don't think there is any doubt that the evidence shows so much of what mark meadows did was well beyond the scope of the normal duties of a chief of staff, which means, even if he can get the case removed because there were one or more acts that were within the scope of his official duties, the case is not going to be dismissed by the federal judge, i don't think. and what has mark meadows succeed in the doing by providing inconsistent accounts during his testimony? he's given the prosecutors more ammunition. so i don't see the legitimate strategic choices here. but maybe they will imaginally emerge down the road. >> i want to read a little more from d.a. willis' filing to the federal judge. quote, the defendant conspired not for any purpose related to his duties as chief of staff, but to transform trump from a losing political candidate into a winning one. no matter what the outcome of the election had actually been. a finding that as part of that, as part of the conspiracy, the defendant may have committed one or even several acts that fell within the color of his office would not demonstrate that he was being prosecuted for an act for or related to his office. it feels like a very respectful and lawyerly way to say, there is no way in hell that overturning the results of the election in georgia falls under the official duties of anyone's chief of staff. am i reading that accurately, glenn? >> you sure are. and who is it that provided testimony at the hearing? mark meadows. the person who has everything to lose. it doesn't mean the judge can't find him to be credible in some respects but he has every reason to, let just say, at a minimum, fudge the truth because he is desperately trying to get out from under. not only a state court prosecution but the prosecution entirely. do you know who would have been the most compelling witnesses to call by mark meadows if this was truly conduct within the official duties of a chief of staff? he could have called five prior chiefs of staff to come in and testify. we did this all the time. this is well within the scope of our official duties, intervening in state election. but it's not and that's why he was the only witness in his own defense. no other chief of staff came in to try to support his claim. >> tim o'brien, i want to play something that cassidy hutchins entered into the public record in the congressional probe. first, perhaps the most revelatory thing here, we had chris on and we widened the aperture a little bit. mark meadows is at the bottom of a very long list. the idea that trump would yell at him. i mean, the answer to why all these men do all these heinous things, and in meadows' case, many,le counts in an alleged criminal enterprise, is usually as simple as that. they did it because they were afraid trump would yell at them. that's pathetic weak sauce. >> i think it is much deeper than that. they can lay it off on i'm afraid donald trump will yell at me, but the reality is that donald trump has always surrounded himself in his businesses, in the white house, in his campaigns, with people who he knows he can bend to his will because i think they're easily corruptible or co-optible. and it's not simply because he yells at them. i think it is because he identifies people who want to livein his halo or carry out his wishes because they have a deep need to be identified with him. mark meadows fits that bill in spades. he was not in the public spotlight by any stretch before going to congress. he had played out his time in the congress before he went to the white house. and then once in the white house, he was one of the biggest trump sycophants in the white house. i think it runs much deeper than being yelled at. he was part of a coordinated effort to do a lot of anticonstitutional things that did not respect the rule of law but furthered donald trump's needs. and you can see this across the board with most of his advisers. >> tim, i agree with you. let me say to widen this conversation out to what jack smith may be interested in learning from mark meadows. here's cassidy hutchinson on just that. >> after mr. giuliani had left the campus that evening, i went back up to our office and i found mr. meadows in his office on the couch. he was scrolling through his phone. i remember leaning against the doorway saying, is that an interesting conversation with rudy? it sounds like we're going to go to the capitol. he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, there is a lot going on, cass. but i don't know. things might get real, real bad on january 6th. >> i mean, tim, it suggests that being involved in assembling the fake electors in case the 0 out of 62 or 1 out of 62 cases that went their way. by the time they did this, they had dozens of cases in court if you follow the time line. he's clearly involved in all aspects of january 6th. and he knows on the 2nd, it will be violence and it will be really, really bad. >> and you know, they ignored, until january 6th escalating warnings from law enforcement that people might arrive on the mall armed. that there weren't adequate metal detectors to police people coming on to the grounds armed. these were coming back to the white house. and anyone who was in trump's communication network did not do much to warn him or to sway him from this, even after the information was in his hands including mark meadows. mark meadows was on the phone call when donald trump called brad raffensperger and asked him to find 11,000 votes so they could tilt the georgia election. i think that very night meadows took to social media, to twitter to play out this same line that trump had been, the election had been stolen from trump. and january 6th was going to be a reckoning. so he is steeped in it up to his eyeballs. as are a number of other people and they can claim they were afraid that he was going to yell at them. they were afraid they might get fired. they were afraid of this and that. of course they were. they were participant in a conspiracy. and i think the evidence that has come out supports that in a way that will make it very difficult for them to contest it in a courtroom. >> is this just amazing that, to hear a grown man say, in a deposition, i was afraid he would yell at me. it's just incredible. mary will come back in the next hour. tim sticks around a little longer with us. when we come back, why new york attorney general tish james has been the subject of donald trump's social media rage today. the vast majority of it. and democrats on the house oversight committee want answers about that saudi money. a whole lot of it that donald trump's son-in-law jared kushner received right after he left the white house. congressman garcia will join us to talk about that next. plus, antiabortion extreme. is in the state of texas are now looking for new ways to criminalize and punish women seeking abortion health care services in texas. texas congresswoman juice minute crockett will be our next guest. and there's new reporting on the justice department's effort to crack down on violent threats against election workers in this country. all those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. go anyw. loving this pay bump on our allowance. wonder where mom and dad got the extra money? 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we're looking at a situation here where the oversight committee is reeling serious about what the kushes did, how they received the $2 billion plus, what he did to receive that money, the effort led by chair raskin on our end is to ensure that we get the facts of what happened. we want to subpoena the documents. we want to ensure and see how did kushner receive so much money right after he left and what did he do to get that? comer himself said he thinks it may have crossed the ethical line so our request is pretty simple. let's subpoena the documents and find out why the saudi arabian government paid the kushners $2 billion after leaving the white house. >> you know, i went down to the trump white house exactly one time. it was the day that jared kushner was briefing the press about donald trump's first foreign trip. i ran into him in the hallway. he was beaming about the strategy of taking donald trump to saudi arabia first. he was also known to have texts using what's app with middle eastern leaders for the duration of the presidency. will you seek to subpoena those what's app messages and work to understand the entirety of the relationship between kushner and the leaders he communicated with directly? >> absolutely. he was probably thinking of all the money he would make. and all the documents that are available to us, we want to get access to. it is pretty interesting that the house republican majority, specially oversight committee, are obsessed with a private citizen, hunter biden, and his business dealings, yet are unwilling to focus, the seriousness of this issue on someone that actually worked inside the white house. >> yeah. do you have any interest from your senate colleagues who obviously are in the majority over there to run investigations in any of their oversight committees? >> those discussions are happening. obviously, jamie raskin is involved in that. we think there is. we've heard some of the senators share some of their concerns. we're really concerned on the house side, on the oversight committee. this is just a pattern of the way they have financially benefitted from their job inside the white house. and they continue to attack the president's family who have not worked at a job in the white house, not paid by the white house. yet they can't and won't hold accountable the kushners who have some huge scheme and enriching themselves by billions of dollars. >> the expresident does such a volume business of scandal that i feel like it was sometimes hard for the press and democrats and ethical people to look in any one place for long. but jared kushner was doing what jared kushner was doing the whole time. are you surprised that it didn't get attention before this? >> well, i do think, i think we talked about it a couple years ago, nicole, about kushner and the saudi investment. i think the issue with jared kushner is that he is so ignorant and unschooled that people to some degree expected him to be harmless. he was in a white house making policy, particularly foreign policy, and i think he had his own eyes set on what he would do when he left the white house. jared kushner, his professional life and most of his life overall, was helped along by his father's wealth. he has never really achieved very much on his own. suddenly he leaves the white house, a plan with no hardball investment experience. when people invest a billion dollars like they did with steve mnuchin or $2 billion with jared kushner, they expect to see a return on their money. jared kushner is not somebody any well-healed savvy investor will give that kind of money to unless they think there are other things to be gained from outside of investment return. they already knew from his time in the white house that the trump white house had overhidden congress's opposition to a saudi arms deal. the trump white house soft pedaled pressing the saudis on jamal khashoggi's murder. so there were clearly possible quid pro quos while he was in the white house. after leaving the white house, he gets this windfall of investment money, i think, because the saudis were placing their bets on the possibility that donald trump might come into the white house again and they would have an easy mark in jared kushner. i think there is a money trail that can be followed there as you've asked. there's possibly a communications trail. i think it should cloud anything kushner does for the campaign, trump's campaign. the possibility that jared kushner will be in the white house again. this has to weigh heavily on that. it is a deep national security problem on top of being an ethical quagmire. as congressman garcia mentioned, it is more than passing strange that the gop is intent on tarring hunter biden with these allegations, when the proof, or at least the he have of stuff much more problematic with jared kushner hasn't been equally probed. >> congressman, really quick, last question. do you plan to call rex tillerton who was rather famously and publicly humiliated by jared kushner pulling the rug out from under him when he was the country's secretary of state? >> we would love to. absolutely. there is a lot there. and there is definitely a history of not just jared kushner but the family, including ivanka, including donald trump, in benefitting from foreign investments and foreign intervention. it is an ethical issue. i completely agree and we would love to hear from him. >> congressman garcia, stay on this. and thank you, tim, for starting us off today. when we come back antiabortion advocates have set a brand new way. regulating the roads and highways. really. we'll bring you that story, next. l bring you that story, next i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ at the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's, ♪ gthis is why we walk.e ♪ ♪ they're why we walk. ♪ we walk in the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's because we're getting closer to beating this disease. join us. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. david: as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. they're called community schools. leslie: it really is shared leadership with families, students, educators, and communities. jessie: i feel like we're really valued as partners. david: it's a more innovative, holistic approach. grant: in addition to academic services, we look at serving the whole family. narrator: wellness centers, food pantries, and parental education. jessie: they're already making a difference. david: california's community schools: reimagining public education. ♪ shelves. shelves that know what taste buds want. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. ♪ so caramel swirl is always there for the taking. the team that brought you texas' bounty hunter vigilante abortion law which allows private citizens to sue anyone who aids and abets an abortion has set their eyes on a new target. the roads, highways, literally. a town 70 miles northwest of austin, texas, could be the third city in texas to make it illegal to drive someone out of the state of texas for an abortion. the "washington post" reports, since roe fell triggering a new ban that outlawed almost all abortions in texas, antiabortion activists, mark lee dixon, and solicitor general jonathan mitchell have changed their strategy. along with passing ordinances and conservative border towns in democrat-led states where abortion providers may look to open new clinics, the team has zero in the on those helping women get abortion. abortion trafficking. the town sits at the cross roads of several highways. travelers driving west toward new mexico from austin, for example, would likely take highway 29 or 71. both of which pass throughlando. last week, the llano city councilmembers heard from both sides of the issue. the ordinance was tabled though it could be considered again as soon as early september. quote, abortion rights advocates say it is merely a ploy to scare people out of seeking out the procedure. to date, no one has been sued under the existing abortion trafficking laws. quote, the purpose of these laws is not to meaningfully enforce them, says the director of the lilith fund. it is the fear that is the point, the confusion that is the point. joining us, congresswoman crockett of texas. the doctor and white house health director for the obama administration. and mary is here, law professor from the university of davis and the author of roe, the history of a national obsession. congresswoman crockett, i start with you. i don't always know where to start with you. why is jonathan mitchell so obsessed? >> why arefully of these crazy people who decide to initiate this in the first place, why are any of them obsessed? the majority of these pushing extreme policies, the majority don't even have uteruses. >> there's that. >> so, you know, what i do know is that the party that is always talking about freedom, the party that is always talking about law and order, is anything but. to say that someone will be restricted of their freedom to move about, to seek any medical attention which literally, there is no way for to you ever enforce this. there is no way to ever do this. how do you know someone is pregnant? how do you know they're leaving the state for this? are you going to stop all pregnant women? should every single pregnant woman be concerned and be interrogated? this is yet another reason in my opinion that we absolutely need a federal standard. we need to codify roe into law and make sure that women in the entire country have access because now they are going after interstate commerce. now they are dealing with the fact that they are violating our federal constitutional right to move about. so to me, now you are telling us, this is exactly why we need a federal standard. and i'll send by saying this. we knew that the crazies were only going to get crazier. so i am an original co-sponsor of a bill that actually was filed on the federal level to prevent this type of retribution, which we could see coming. >> mary, i want to ask you about this sort of laboratory for extremism. jonathan mitchell was profiled in the "new york times." and he's been working on ways to completely cut off women's access to reproductive health care. and texas has become a laboratory for death. you've got the plaintiffs who have had some success in court. they talked about almost dying of sepsis. the real-life consequences for the women of texas have been death and near death. why is this continuing? >> well, i think jonathan mitchell's general perspective is if he can get a conservative federal court to sign off on it, it's cool. it's okay if that has effects on patients in the real world that are devastating, and it is really okay with him even if it has negative effects on the republican party. i don't think that's his concern. but we've seen over and over again, mitchell will create local ordinance that's are dismissed as fringe or extreme and then quite quickly they become business model for the state of texas, and not long after that, they become a fiscal model for conservative states across the country. so this is just a trial run, as you mentioned, for something we're likely to see a lot of other places quite soon. >> and dr. patel, amanda has given voice to the real life consequences and danger and near death experience she faced after she lost a pregnancy, lost her daughter willow. it is now been going on long enough that people have seen the human consequences. the women whose lives and bodies have been changed and damaged forever. what is the appropriate response? >> i think the appropriate response is shock and awe, hopefully a rallying cry for every, not just physician and clinician and anyone who takes care of any patient, but for anybody who has a uterus and those who don't. it that what is clear now is that as we've spoken about on this show, it has so many unintended consequences, intended by many but unintended when you think about implications for miscarriage management. to your point, bringing women to the brink of death in order to be able to get medical care. what you point out, something that i have to emphasize, the use of the term trafficking to confuse people with a very real problem we have in the united states, human trafficking, sex trafficking of children, of minors is very intentional. and this is something that idaho has tried to put forward in the legislature. a number of people that are putting at least three dozen bills against doctors specifically using this term, human trafficking to kind of imply just like they are doing in llano and other parts of texas, that somehow this action is illegal. there are stiffer penalties. there are stiffer penalties to even talk to a woman about choices in the state of texas and many other states than there are to actually commit medical malpractice, to botch a surgery, to unintentionally or intentionally do harm to a patient. and i think that's what is at stake. hopefully we'll see the proportionate response in everybody. voters, nonvoters, everybody should have a say in this. >> yeah. you've all alluded to this. i want to turn to the politics of this. this is outside the main stream. not just for women. not just for democrats. for republicans. so i have to take a quick break and i'll ask all of you to stick around. we'll all be back on the other side. other side more shopping? 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and that's what you're asking. when we think about it, think about it this way. you have the extremists that are trying to make it through the primaries. that's all they care about. if i can make it through the primary. and people vote because they're emotional, they're angry, happy. but it's some emotion that makes them vote. what they're trying to do is get the nomination. unfortunately, what we will see is that when it comes down to the general, even those that disagree with the extreme positions, they will still hold the line and vote republican. and that's what they're banking on. >> you know, mary, abortion throughout history has been polarizing. abortion, roe right now, not so much. i think upwards of 65% of all americans support abortion being legal in some or all instances. it is more supported by more people today. that's why you've seen the efforts in kansas and ohio. i think it was north carolina, fail. have you seen a moment in this country where policies have beef americans? >> certainly not in the abortion context. i mean, this is really a remarkable historic moment in that sense. and i think the other real sign that we're seeing that republicans are continuing down this road is that they're not worried in some ways about what voters think, right? we've already seen a pretty strong anti-democratic streak in the politics of abortion in this country in ohio and elsewhere. and i think that's the bet republicans are making, that they can either ride base voters or anti-democratic strategies to the white house and to control of congress against the will of voters who support access to abortion in unprecedented numbers. >> you know, i think, dr. pichai, i wonder sometimes we cover the legal reckoning facing an ex-american president. but i do sometimes wonder, to points that you've all made, if we should just focus on the idea that everyone who has a uterus or loves someone who has a uterus cares about this issue. i mean, this is sort of beyond spin. this is beyond storytelling. you don't have to be a lawyer to understand what is happening in this space. and i wonder how much -- how many questions you get about it, in your policy hat, how many questions you get about it as a physician. >> i get quite a bit of questions just as a physician because people are kind of interested, not in my positions in terms of politics. they just want to understand is this health care and the answer is unanimously yes, this is health care. so i think it's very important to make it very clear. i do think telling these stories and giving kind of faces and names to the stories help to actually kind of create at least more reasonable discussions that we can say that, you know, abortion, reproductive justice, these services, they are health care. and would you ever want anyone to deny the right to any of the amazing things that we can do inside of like a clinic, a hospital, the technology and innovation we have, why would we deny that to anybody? so people do ask that question, sometimes out of fear. but also to validate like we think it's health care, do you think it's health care? yes. and people who think they're safe in blue or red states, you should not feel safe because i think this has shown us that it can bleed and spill over no matter where you are. >> yeah. i mean, i know women living in blue states who are seeking out sterilizations and doctors being asked unprecedented numbers of questions about that kind of health care. congresswoman, i want to read you one thing from this "washington post" article. "i hate abortion, council member laura almond said. i'm a jesus lover like all of you here. still, she said, she couldn't help thinking about the time in college when she picked up a friend from an abortion clinic and how someone might have tried to punish her under this law. quote, it's overreaching, she said. we're talking about people here. this is the anatomy of how you alienate 93% of all americans. even people who have personal views about abortion are opposed to criminalizing the people who drive another woman to receive abortion health care. tell me what the democrats do next. >> yeah, so number one, we've got to continue having the conversation. and i applaud the president for making sure that this is front and center of his re-election because i think that we've got to make sure that we continue to refocus people on what matters. you know, we're having all these conversations and knees distractions with hunter biden and all these things that don't matter. what matters to everyday people is not living in the nightmare known as "the handmaid's tale." we've all got to conversate about this, or converse about this. not just women but men. everyone has to talk about it and understand that if we allow them to attack our freedoms, our reproductive freedoms and make women second-rate citizens in this country just know that once they're done taking all the freedoms they can take from women they're probably coming for some freedom that belongs to you too. so we have to understand that our fates are inextricably tied and make sure that we band together in this fight because this is a fight for freedom. this is a fight for health care access. this is a fight for honestly the soul of our country. >> congresswoman jasmine crockett, dr. cavita patel, and mary st. clair, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. when we come back, donald trump will be deposed again. didn't go so well last time. in another civil lawsuit. we'll tell you about it next. awt we'll tell you about it next shi. 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(vo) ultimate endless shrimp is here with a limited time flavor drop. new crispy dragon shrimp. one of seven endless choices for just $20. right now, only at red lobster. welcome to fun dining. mark your calendars. donald trump will be sitting for more depositions in multiple civil lawsuits. today the d.c. circuit court of appeals ruled that donald trump can be deposed in a lawsuit over the firing of veteran fbi agent pete strzok. strzok is suing the bureau for wrongful termination after the russia investigation. the case now returns to district judge amy berman jackson, who previously said that she would allow trump to be deposed. and next week trump will be deposed in his $500 million lawsuit against michael cohen. coming up next for us, michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson will be our guest. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a very short break. don't go anywhere. starts aftery short break. don't go anywhere. guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! 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[ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. let innovation refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. clink! dr. marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. emily used part of her refund to buy... i run a wax museum. let innovation refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund. stop waiting. go to innovationrefunds.com you really got the brows. i lost my sense of security. all because a group of people starting with number 45 and his ally rudy giuliani decided to scapegoat me and my daughter, shaye. to push their own lies about how the presidential election was stolen. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. it is a story that is tragic in its own right but is becoming increasingly and alarmingly a familiar one. after donald trump and his election denier allies unleashed a torrent of lies about the 2020 election being stolen from him, including conspiracy theories about election workers who committed fraud. none of them did. that is exactly what happened to georgia election workers ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss, who testified before the january 6 committee about the horrific impact that donald trump and rudy giuliani's lies about them have had on their lives. >> i don't want to go anywhere. i second-guess everything that i do. it's affected my life in a major way. in every way. all because of lies. for me doing my job. same thing i've been doing forever. >> as we've reported on this program on wednesday, a judge ruled just this week that rudy giuliani is liable for damages in the defamation lawsuit filed against him by moss and freeman. but despite that legal victory much of the damage has already been done. many election workers worried about their own safety and the safety of their loved ones have already left their jobs instead of facing threats for simply doing their jobs. the a.p. reports this. quote, about 1 in 5 election workers know someone who left their election job for safety reasons. 73% of local election officials said harassment has increased. that's according to a brennan center survey published in april. but the justice department is taking action to deter the growing violent threats against election workers. its election threats task force, created in 2021, has charged 14 cases involving threatening election workers and has already secured nine convictions. just yesterday two men pleaded guilty in two separate cases for threatening local officials and election workers in the states of georgia and arizona. on monday an iowa man was sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison for leaving voicemails threatening to lynch and hang two republican arizona election officials including former arizona attorney general mark brrn vitch. earlier this month a man in texas was sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison for threats he made advocating for mass shooting of election officials in precincts in arizona he believed had suspect results. in a statement attorney general merrick garland said he remains committed to cracking down on these threats, saying this. quote, a functioning democracy requires of the public servants who administer our elections are able to do their jobs without fearing for their lives. the justice department will continue to investigate and prosecute those who target election officials and election workers as part of our broader efforts to safeguard the right to vote and to defend our democracy. that is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. former principal deputy assistant attorney general for national security mary mccord is back with us. former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence and msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi is here. and starting us off, michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson joins us. madam secretary, we i think have seen this most generously through your eyes. we covered the folks outside your house threatening you. and then when we got to know you as a guest of this program we got to learn what it was like. and you testified before the january 6th committee about that experience. but if you could just for purposes of this discussion remind us what you went through for simply doing your job as michigan secretary of state. >> yeah, well, thanks as always, nicolle, for having me and highlighting this reality for so many of us who as shaye so aptly put it are just trying to do our jobs and make sure everyone can vote. and yet we live our lives in this constant state of anxiety, not just for ourselves and our own safety but for our families, for our children, and for our staff. just this week my staff was harassed with calls and threats around the issues regarding the 14th amendment and the former president's eligibility. so it's a constant state of anxiety that we're in. and whether it's people gathering outside my home in the middle of the night yelling at me to come outside and face them so that i could seek justice for the 2020 election cycle or it's phone calls that sometimes i get, voicemails that i hear after putting my kid to bed at night, saying we can't wait to see you hanging from a tree. those are all real. and it's something we've lived with for years now since the 2020 election cycle. and it's something that shows no sign of abating. >> you know, we grapple with how much time, how much air time to give the toxic sludge that comes from the american right and the person at the top of it is obviously donald trump. but i think the slice we tried to peel off every day is the national security and domestic security piece because there are people who in service to him, in response to his calls, do the things you are describing. and i wonder if you could just give us your sort of threat analysis, what you're prepared to maybe face again in 2024, how you do it and why you stay in it, if you can understand what a.p. reports, that 1 in 5 election workers says they cannot and will not. >> i think we're weary, we're exhausted, but we're also emboldened. and we've said that throughout this process. and if anything for me, for my team, for many of the election workers in my state, for many of my colleagues around the country, we have been beaten down, we have been dismayed, we have lived in this constant state of anxiety, but we're going into the 2024 election cycle now a little bit more wisened with more procedures in place, more security in place than we had before, and we do have in this case that we didn't have in '20 a federal government on our side, a justice department and several indictments in cases moving forward seeking justice. rightfully so. for the lies that have led to these threats and this behavior. so i know it sounds strange because it's a terrible moment for democracy and for us to be in. but we also find ourselves, i find myself finding a source of strength in the fact that we are seeing justice, that we are seeing accountability, and that we are as a community more wisened, seasoned and perhaps even more embold epd than before to do our jobs. i wanted to quickly share this story from 2022 when i went into a polling place in detroit and was overwhelmed by the energy in that polling place, the determination by poll workers to do our jobs and make sure people can vote. and that's a strength and determination that has grown out of these threats, and that gives me hope and optimism that we can get through this. but we also know the storm is here and will continue to be here through this election cycle. >> i know that you are non-partisan, or bipartisan support from other secretaries of state. it's never been a particularly partisan job in any state. and i think trump really made that the case, when he went after brad raffensperger, republican of georgia. he went after you. and there was not really a distinction in his ferocity. in some instances the things he asked of republicans were even more audacious and brazen. and i wonder if you can talk about that dynamic of that relationship. >> well, with my colleagues or with the former president? >> with other secretaries of state. with other -- you know, other people in this post. it is a post that is almost unnaturally in focus of the obsession of someone who wants to cheat. right? donald trump couldn't cheat just with governors. he needed the secretaries of state if he wanted to overturn elections. enter brad raffensperger, enter yourself, enter other election officials who in history have not been particularly pivotal figures in the public arena around election conversations. >> these threats have brought us closer together and created almost a unifying shared traupa, if you could call it that. but also a unifying sense of pride and determination that we use to support each other and feed off each other and embolden each other and work with each other. and that's another thing that gives me a lot of optimism going into 2024. we are talking to each other. we are supporting each other. we are sharing stories and collaborating more than ever before because we know we're facing a common enemy, not just in the former president and his supporters but in anyone who's against democracy right now. the tactics are similar. the threats are real. and those threats are hitting all of us. and so we've become much closer than we were in the past. and that's particularly important to have that across party lines because as these positions have been jettisoned in the spotlight we have to lock arms and demonstrate that we're not partisan officials, we are election officials and we're determined to do our jobs to make sure no matter where someone lives or who they vote for that their vote counts and they can trust the results of the elections. so we find focus in that. we find connectivity and collaboration in that. and strength. it helps us get through these challenging moments. >> michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, thank you very much for always being honest and sharing what this experience is like. we're really grateful to you. >> thanks for having me. >> frank and mary, i had a worry that what she just said about conversations around the 14th amendment would come to pass. i would be lying if i said i'm surprised that threats are coming to her staff and her office because this is now out there, these questions of trump's eligibility based on section 3 of the 14th amendment of the constitution. i think a lot of people on all sides of this are experiencing new scrutiny and new threats. but i wonder, frank, what you see when you look at this -- when you just sort of peel off the threat environment at this point more than a year ahead of the next election. >> so first, on the good news front, this is the first kind of window that's been opened by the justice department into the work of this election threat task force that as you pointed out has been in existence now for two years and quite frankly i'd almost forgotten that it existed. we've seen little glimpses of some of their work, maybe a conviction here or an announcement there. but this is the first time that i see them coming out and saying hey, let's show our work, here's what we've done. and as you referenced, 14 people charged, nine convictions including some guilty pleas, over a two-year period. that's pretty good work. and there seems to be more coming. some interesting data attached to it is that the majority, almost 60% of these cases are coming involving threats against people, election workers in swing states, the seven swing states. but interestingly, that doesn't mean that the people being investigated are all from those swing states. they're coming from other states and threatening people in the swing states. so that's kind of a national scope that we're seeing. and it has two effects, this announcement of consequences will come. first of course we hope there's a deterrent effect in this threat environment we're in where we're seeing threats against d.a.s and grand jurors and judges and now you rightfully point out as secretaries of state throughout the country consider what they're going to do with section 3 of the 14th amendment, whether trump is or is not qualified to be on a ballot or be president, yes, it's going to heat the threat environment up. so looking behind the scenes, and i'd be interested in what mary thinks about this because of her doj experience, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if garland, a.g. garland has decided, you know what, it is time to come out for me and talk about this threat task force because of the threat environment we're in. and hopefully i'd like to see him do more of that. silence in this arena is not helpful. people need to know, you make this threat, it's coming. and the other thing, not only a deterrent effect but also it helps assure people who want to raise their hand and say i want to be an election worker, it helps them to understand, we've got your back, if there's a threat we're going to work it. the person's going to face federal charges. because you know, what they're thinking right now is if we don't do this job because we're fearful of the criminal element making criminal threats, then the only people left to hold the job is the criminal element. and we don't want that happening. >> yeah. i mean, mary, why not come out in force as attorney general lisa monaco, his deputy, christopher wray, the fbi director, and say if you're an election worker in america we've got your back, here's our number, you see something say something. why not a 9/11-style show of force to protect america's election workers and election infrastructure? >> i think that's exactly what we need. i think that's partly what doj was trying to do when it announced this election threats task force. but i have to say, you know, it was very, very slow to bring cases and even though i like frank, i applaud the 14 cases they've brought, there have been thousands and thousands of referrals. i'd like to see them lean forward even more than they have. some of the cases that have been reported, and i think the reporting out is so important, i think people who are swayed by the former president's disinformation, his lies, his rhetoric need to see what the consequences could be. we're talking about in one case a man in his 70s getting sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison, which i doubt he's looking forward to very much. so i think deterrence is really important. but you know, some of these cases that were prosecuted are so egregious. we're talking about cases calling for mass shootings, calling for militias to come out and kill election workers, calling for the children of election workers to be harmed. i mean, these are really, really egregious. and there are so many more cases. and i understand what the legal burden is. i was a prosecutor for a very long time. it needs to be a true threat. needs to be concrete enough in who it's intended for and what action is intended that it is beyond first amendment protection. but i do think that historically prosecutors have been cautious with that and this is a time to be bold so that people will understand what they face. if they frankly put themselves out there carrying the former president's water where he is still jetting around the country, yes he's now facing accountability and it's about time, but you know, there are so many people, the rioters on january 6th, the insurrectionists i should really say, people who've committed threats on his behalf, people who've committed other crimes of violence, really in furtherance of the former president's lies. and they need to really think twice, is that really what they want to do? they want to go to prison for doing something stupid for making these threats. the other thing i would say is i agree with frank's point entirely that the government needs to be saying not just the federal government, state government, state district attorneys, sheriffs, police chiefs, we have your back, we will protect you. because you know what? our elections, they are fundamental -- you started this segment out talking about national security. our national security depends on our democracy being healthy, which depends on us being able to carry out elections without violence, without intimidation, and that is not only of those voting but also those who are processing those votes. and if we fail on that, and if we can't carry out successful appreciation and fair elections, then we have failed as a democracy. this is really sort of an all hands on deck moment. and i can't emphasize it enough. i'm really pleased to see these convictions. i'm really pleased to see these sentences. in fact, it was a trump appointee that gave that 2 1/2-year sentence to that man in his 70s just recently. but it just has to keep going. and one last thing i'd say is historically threats have kind of been left up to state, like local district attorneys, local jurisdictions to prosecute. but the point you just made, in most of knees cases the threats are coming from someone from another state. and that's probably because they're using phones or using social media. but that means we need a massive amount of coordination between our federal law enforcement and our state and local law enforcement if they're going to be able to pursue the people who are engaging in this activity. >> also, you just keep praying -- and i know i should stop, right? it's like wasted breath. it's wasted energy. but you just keep hoping that the people that disseminate the lies that endanger election workers' lives, democratic and republican affiliated secretaries of state and election workers, they are the subject of segments on conservative media. they are targeted. the conspiracies don't start and stop with the things donald trump puts out on his social media platform. they get amplified and they get regurgitated and they get clipped and they get posted and they get disseminated. and the entire threat environment, it's not something that i think any of us spend a lot of time looking at. but if you know anyone on sort of the trump side of the information or disinformation universe they're being fed this stuff, they're being stirred up, they're being stoked, they're being agitated all day every day with things that are absolutely baseless. so thank you both for indulging me both in this conversation once again. we'll stay on it. mary mccord, thank you for staying across two hours. frank sticks around a little longer this hour. when we come back, a shocking outburst in court today from one of the january 6th insurrectionists after he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. brian riley was at that courthouse. he will join us next. we'll also bring you the latest on mitch mcconnell's second freezing up episode. it includes an update about his physical health and a little update about the political health of the country. and after a decades-old video went viral the reverend al will be our guest. he'll turn the tables on republican presidential sound bite machine vivek ramaswamy this weekend. he'll explain his plan of action. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. breaking news to tell you about out of washington, d.c., where a judge has sentenced more members of the far right group the proud boys after their conviction on federal charges in the january 6th seditious conspiracy case. ethan nordean, a group leader, was sentenced to 18 years in prison, tying the record for the longest sentence to come out of the sweeping prosecution of more than 1,100 defendants related to the january 6th attack on the united states capitol. and earlier dominic pezzola, who used a stolen police shield to break a window that allowed the first wave of rioters to enter the u.s. capitol, was sentenced to 10 years in federal prison. though pezzola was not convicted on the sedition charge, that sentence was still half of what federal prosecutors recommended. pezzola with his wife and teenage daughter looking on told the judge that he was a changed man. but. there's always a but. as he was escorted out of the courtroom today he raised a fist and yelled, quote, trump won, end quote. and the video posted by a social media account associated with the sedition hunters, a group of online sleuths who have helped authorities identify hundreds of people present at the capitol insurrection, has uncovered a current trump campaign staffer named dylan cuatarucci the deputy director of trump's 2024 new hampshire campaign, at the foot of the u.s. capitol that day making disturbing remarks about police officers, law enforcement officials, including telling police to kill themselves. here's part of that recording. >> if you are a police officer and you are going to abide by unconstitutional [ bleep ], i want you to do me a favor right now and go hang yourself because you're a piece of [ bleep ]. go [ bleep ] yourself. >> nbc news has confirmed cuatrucci's identity in this video with two people who are familiar with him. we've reached out to both the individual and the trump campaign for comment. there's no evidence that he entered the capitol building that we're aware of but it cannot be lost on any of us that four officers did just that. they responded to the january 6th insurrection -- officers who responded that day later died by suicide. none of this would have happened, of course, without the lies told by donald trump. let's bring into our coverage nbc news justice reporter ryan riley with the latest. also joining us msnbc contributor charlie sykes, editor at large of the bulwark. and still with us frank figliuzzi. brian, what a dramatic day. take us inside all of it. >> yeah, it really was. it was quite a juxtaposition because you have this situation where dominic pezzola goes up and says he's sorry. he was mostly talking about the impact that it had on his family. i didn't hear -- you know, there was a little bit of an apology i suppose for the officer worked in there but it wasn't broadly talking about the day. and he was in tears for a lot of this. and then you know, saying he wants to get out of politics, he's sort of done with all of this. and then gets a pretty solid sentence in terms of what they could have sentenced him to. right? because dominic pezzola they wanted 20 years for him. he ultimately got 10. so that's a pretty significant shave off of what he was looking at there. but you know, he didn't seem to take the hint, right? he continued to say that the election was stolen as he goes out the door there. and really just i think kind of remarkable set of circumstances. it's the second time we've had a january 6th deft say the exact phrase, "trump won," when he was led out of court. the other individual was danny rodriguez, the individual who drove a stun gun into mike fanone's neck that day. who was also apologetic to the officer and then continued to believe the lie about the election. which makes sort of those apologies sort of seem hollow because to a certain extent why would you be apologetic for what you did if you still continue to believe that the election was stolen? i think that especially holds true for the people who were on the lower end of the fences here and didn't commit those really violent offenses who are being maybing sentenced for going inside the capitol or something of that nature. >> ryan, take us through ethan nordean's sentence. >> yeah, this was a little of a surprise because i think joe biggs had much more of a social media and public presence. ethan nordean did not testify during the proud boys trial. and he was someone who i think had obviously a really severe alcohol problem. there are several videos that were introduced during the case where he is just sort of really lit, really drunk, and sending these videos talking about 1776. there is a claim he was actually drunk that day when he was doing all of this. but he really was a brawler for the proud boys and was somebody they really bragged about in terms of he's a big guy being able to take people out and a real fighter at some of these events that they had previously. i think there's an event where he punched someone in the face and knocked them out in one punch. someone who they really thought was this individual who could really bring a lot of force for them. but he wasn't someone that was more of their sort of media presence whereas joe biggs really was that. because joe biggs of course was the person who used to be an infowars correspondent and really knew a lot about social media. half of the evidence was selfie videos he filmed himself and filmed a lot of the other proud boys defendants and that was ultimately what really helped aid the case against them. nordean was a little bit of a surprise being tied for the longest sentence here. i think really the big question for me is tuesday what ends up happening because you have the situation with enrique tarrio, where he's the leader in this but he wasn't on the battlefield, so to speak, on january 6th. he was actually at a baltimore hotel because he had been arrested in connection with one of those prior events in d.c. like the day before january 6th. so i'm really curious to see where judge timothy kelly ends up landing on that, whether he sets a new record for january 6th or whether he undercuts that a little bit. but in that case prosecutors are in fact seeking 33 years in federal prison just as they had for joe biggs. >> frank figliuzzi, your thoughts. >> i'm marking my calendar, nico nicolle, for ten years from today so we can ask dominic pezzola if he still thinks trump won or whether somehow ten years in federal prison has tempered his opinion of that. it's really a disgrace. and the phoniness of his kind of apology crying on the stand, talking about how it's ruined his role as a parent, father, husband, whatever, just absolute nonsense as he's screaming trump won as he's carried out in shackles to serve a ten-year prison term. the other thing i think is noteworthy here is his long-time partner that he's lived with was testifying and what does she tell us about -- what insights do we get from her? first she referred to dominic pezzola as an f-ing idiot, which heard no objection from in the courtroom. secondly, she says he was -- he got this way drinking and watching fox news. there you go. that's helpful in terms of how we produce these people. so this will have some deterrent effect but i think the longer-term thing is an interesting phenomenon. with the proud boys unlike other groups like the oath keepers where i see them going local. they've actually increased their membership. there's now 200 chapters of proud boys around the united states. and they're going very local. they're putting suits and ties on. they're running for office. they're showing up at pta and election meetings. so they're here to stay. and these people will be the martyrs for the cause. >> it's terrifying. charlie sykes, i don't want to gloss over the other breaking news, that dylan cuatrucci is the deputy director of trump's campaign in new hampshire. in a video uncovered by the sedition hunters he says, quote, if you're a police officer and are going to abide by unconstitutional bull bleep i want you to do me a favor right now and go hang yourself because you're a piece of s-h-i-t. that's who donald trump has attracted to work on his campaign in new hampshire. >> yeah, i'm still shocked by this after all of this time. this all begins with donald trump and it ends with donald trump. he's the alpha and the omega. the lie flows from him. he called the people to washington. and then you have the defendant walking out of the courtroom saying trump won. which is of course a bid for a pardon. we may not have to wait ten years to find out how he feels about this because you know, donald trump has been putting out the word for the last several years that what happened on january 6th was a good thing, that it was patriotic, that it was not a riot, it was people who were fighting for democracy. and that's been internalized by many of these defendants. he's raised money for these defendants. he's sung songs with these defendants. what a surprise that they're not actually -- that they're not actually sorry, that they're not really contrite about what they did. and this is the real threat, that by doing what he is doing donald trump is putting this gloss on this violent, vicious moment in american history and saying this wasn't so bad and i've got your back. and so every one of these sentences needs to be seen through the lens of donald trump's clear intention to use his pardon power if he gets into office to wipe away these convictions, to wipe away these sentences. and that's obviously what all of these defendants in the dock are now expecting and hoping for. >> what's so crazy, though, is not one of them is smart enough to realize that he could have pardoned them the first time, right? there were 18 days -- or 14 days. he had two whole weeks. and he could have said bring me the video of your presence at my insurrection and i'll hand you a pardon. i'm sure he would have written it out himself on a post-it and handed it to all of them. and he didn't. and so the notion that he's going to carry out on that pledge in the second term is, you know, bill barr's favorite word. bull bleep. ryan reilly for your reporting on this, thank you so much. frank figliuzzi for spending so much of the hour with us, thank you. charlie sykes sticks around. we have some breaking news out of fulton county. rudy giuliani has pleaded not guilty in the alleged criminal conspiracy to overturn the will of the voters in georgia. and steven lee, a lutheran pastor, has pleaded not guilty to charges of criminal efforts to influence election worker ruby freeman. we'll stay on top of all of that. quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick break for us we'll be right back. 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(vo) ask your doctor about once-weekly mounjaro. i spoke to mitch. he's a friend. and i spoke to him today. and you know, he was his old self on the telephone. it's not at all unusual to have the response that sometimes happens to mitch what you've had a severe concussion. it's part of a -- it's part of the recovery. and so i'm confident he's going to be back to his old self. >> do you have any concern with his ability to do his job? >> no. >> mitch mcconnell received the all clear from the capitol doctor this week. but perhaps more notable in this environment, he also received an all-clear from his old friend, the president of the united states of america, president joe biden, who yesterday called the senate minority leader, mitch mcconnell, after he appeared to freeze up on camera for the second time in about 31 days. yesterday mitch mcconnell released a letter from the attending physician of congress deeming him, quote, medically cleared to work. the letter says in part, "i have consulted with leader mcconnell and conferred with his neurology team. occasional light-headedness is not uncommon in concussion recovery. it can also be expected as a result of dehydration." we're not doctors, so we'll leave it at that. but the other piece of this is another example of president joe biden doing something that used to be not news. used to be totally unremarkable, an american political leader showing normal human decency to a friend, even if that friend is a member of the other party that rarely shows said decency to him. joining our conversation, the reverend al sharpton, president of the national action network and the host of msnbc's "politics nation." charlie sykes is back with us. charlie, you know my interest in this story. both around basic questions of fitness -- i mean, mitch mcconnell two times has not been -- has seemingly not been able to talk when it seemed like he wanted to talk. got an all-clear from a doctor but perhaps just as importantly got an all-clear from his friend joe biden. >> yeah. i mean, it obviously was painful and it was disturbing. but i want to focus on what you just said here. this was a very, very rare grace note. rare in our current political culture. it was classy and it was compassionate of president biden to call mitch mcconnell and to say the things that he did. and you're right. there was a time when this would have been absolutely routine, not worthy of a lot of attention. but given the current environment it really feels almost countercultural, like a throwback to a time when people did behave with decency, did have relationships that weren't just simply throwing mud at one another or juvenile insults. so it did feel refresh -- refreshing. and i think we ought to be grateful that joe biden made that call and behaved the way that he did. the contrast, by the way, speaks for itself. >> correct. and i mean, look, rev, again, because we spent so much time in the moment that endangers really just about everyone in the arena except trump and the people threatening everybody else in the arena, i don't want to -- i don't want to sort of repeat the pattern and not note the things that push against that. and joe biden's instinct to pour grace on top of grace on top of grace on top of grace even for people that show him no grace, mitch mcconnell is the most powerful member of a party that works all day every day to attack and smear and delegitimize the president and his family, his kids. is a remarkable thing about joe biden. whatever you think of his policies and politics, it is a thing that makes joe biden one of one in this political moment. >> well, it is outstanding, though it's not surprising because joe biden has been that type of person as long as he's been in public life. in the '90s when i disagreed with the omnibus crime bill that joe biden helped get through the congress along with bill clinton or even with the whole clarence thomas nomination, we would be stiff in terms of our opposition but he was always decent to us. in the last 30 years he has treated me like someone that has had a good relationship including monday when we met with civil rights leaders and dr. king's family after the march on washington. the fact that we are congratulating the president of the united states for doing something decent and humane is what's remarkable. it shows us how low donald trump has brought this body politic, to where we actually congratulate people for being decent to somebody who had a medical problem and this may be the result of that. and that becomes something we have to congratulate. that's how low we've allowed american politics to go. with donald trump. and i think we ought to pat ourselves -- touch ourselves on the shoulder and say this should not be something abnormal, this should be what is expected, particularly of the president of the united states. >> totally. totally. all that. we need both of you to stick around a little bit longer. there's much more to come. when we come back, how the rev will get the chance to turn the tables on one vivek ramaswamy this weekend on politics nation. how's that for a tease? don't go anywhere. how's that for a tease don't go anywhere. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ get it with gurus. cargurus. hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. -and i scored a goal on ashley. -that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. it's probably because of that flea and tick medicine you've been ordering from chewy. we are very proud of you. you never stop surprising us, bailey. right? i'm great. you are great. i wonder if bailey's ever done a book report. be nice to your sister. what flea bit him? pets aren't just pets. they're more. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. chewy. when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't 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(josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. this one helps you build a life. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. [it's the final game, folks. this one wins the series.] struck out with the cheap seats? important things aren't worth compromising. at farmers, we offer both quality insurance and great savings. (crowd cheers) here, take mine. (farmers mnemonic) i'm vivek and i want to ask you, last week on the show we had senator kerry and this week -- and the week before we had senator edwards. and my question for you is of all the democratic candidates out there why should i vote for the one with the least political experience? >> well, you shouldn't. because i have the most political experience. [ applause ] >> that was republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy asking the question there. it was 2003. it was on msnbc. he was then a young student questioning the political experience of our own rev al sharpton, who was at the time running his own campaign for president. 20 years later ramaswamy is facing increased criticism from the other republican 2024 candidates for his own lack of political experience. and tomorrow the tables will officially be turned as the rev al will be questioning vivek ramaswamy in a live interview on "politics nation." rev, what have you got up your sleeve for vivek ramaswamy? >> i want to know does he now understand that having political experience does not mean you hold a political office. i've been a civil rights activist for 20 years before then, holding positions in various parts of the king movement in the north. so social work and social policy had nothing to do with holding an office. so i'm going to be clear with him, have you learned that because now you're running and even as important, nicolle, he supports donald trump, who never held political office before he became president. and then i want to ask him about some substance that he's running on. you know, if he wants to name call, that's not my show. the apollo theater is about 50 blocks north of our studio. we do amateur night there on wednesday night. saturday at my show we talk policy. we talk what's real. what is he saying is the reason he wants to be president and what political experience does he have. so i hope he brings his grown folks pants on because it's not the morton downey show of the '80s, it's something serious because we're in a serious time. >> i mean, charlie, i can already predict this guy using one of his lifelines. he's not -- and he hasn't been questioned yet by someone as skilled or knowledgeable or patient as the rev. it feels like as the vetting of him is only just in its infancy, there's not much beneath the slick surface. >> i think that's becoming apparent. the guy turned in a good debate performance, but as you look more closely, he's shrill, he's shallow, he's shameless, and he's a shape shifter. one of the things he does, of course, is say something outrageous, then when he's confronted on it, he simply lies about it and denies that he said what, in fact, he said. and somehow, he thinks that won't catch up with him. so he's had a really, really rough week. it certainly sounds like it's going to get a lot worse for him. >> rev, none other than karl rove is sort of hitting him where it hurts. let me read what he said to say about ramaswamy. "mr. recall amazonmy's bought and paid for comment is part of a pattern of demagoguery. mr. ramaswamy is quick to disregard the truth when it's politically expedient." he seems to really be the first to try to test the transferability of trump's political armor on someone other than trump. how do you think it's going to work out for him? >> first of all, i think he ought to learn a marketing lesson, and that is why would people buy a knockoff if the original is still available? so imitating trump while trump is still in the campaign, it doesn't make a lot of sense. and secondly, i think that he underestimates the intelligence of republican voters who will be voting in the primary, that you should at least represent some policies. and i hope he can explain them to me. what is it that he brings to the table? policy-wise different from the other candidates? we understand what desantis stands for. we don't agree with it, many of us, but we know what he stand for. vivek so far has stood for vivek. what is that? how is that? and to try and be a knockoff or imitation of donald trump when the real thing is available just doesn't make a lot of political sense. donald trump, whether he knows it or not, is still around and is still a candidate. all 6'3", 215 pounds of him, all of it. >> vivek ramaswamy will be interviewed by the rev on "politics nation" tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. eastern. we'll be watching. the reverend al sharpton and charlie sykes, thanks for spending time. a victory for lgbtq groups against texas republican discrimination, don't go anywhere. ide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. yaaay! woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ fundamental freedoms are under attack in our country today and there is a national agenda at play by these extremist so-called leaders. it will be a national ban on abortion. it is the tradition of our country to fight for freedom, to fight for rights... to fight for the ability of all people to be who they are and make decisions about their own lives and their bodies. and we will fight for the ideals of our country. what do we always say, son? 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dr. scholl's has the breakthrough you've been waiting for. the first fda-cleared at-home skin tag remover clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. today, texas republicans were dealt a major blow in their efforts to discriminate against lgbtq rights. a federal judge temporarily blocked a new texas law that would restrict drag shows. the law would have criminalized sexually oriented performances in front of children or banned some public drag shows. in a two-day hearing, a drag performer and members of the lgbtq community testified that this republican legislation trampled on their first amendment rights. the judge ruled that allowing the law to take effect would likely cause irreparable harm to the plaintiffs. texas is suffsix states that have passed a bill restricting drag performances. watch this space for a final ruling on the texas legislation. we will stay on this for you. pe. watch this space for a final ruling on the texas legislation. we will stay on this for you. n . we will stay on this for you become an aunty. book a flight. stay 4 nights. meet the baby. make the baby cry. give the baby back. fly home. silver tier in a single trip. join one key and move up tiers fast. every piece of land has a story - written by those who work it. like the caggianos, who are brewing their own legacy. or the wrens, with their drama free plot - tranquil and serene. the upshaws? 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