i'm joe. it's really great that you've chosen to be with us on this first of our hopefully many shows ahead. that was some kind of debate last night, but nikki haley had some moments. she did. there was another moment, willie, where she basically said, let's stop lying to everybody. it's not joe biden that caused the deficit. it's not joe biden that caused the debt. it was donald trump. you went along with it and said nothing. it was a fascinating debate. ramaswamy was insulting everybody. everybody is bought and paid for. what i found in politics is, when you have somebody going around the stage saying everybody is bought and paid for, they're the one who is bought and paid for. but he reminded me of tracy flick in the old movie about politics. >> reese witherspoon, yeah. >> yeah, reese witherspoon. as tracy flick. just this little kid going around, trying to say the right lines and do the right things. everything was so prepackaged. everything. there wasn't a conspiracy theory he didn't fall down. there wasn't an insult he didn't launch. it was all so miserable. but it was an interesting debate in other aspects. nikki haley. desantis was kind of like biden. i know they'll both love to hear that, but desantis just kind of stayed in there. he didn't do anything great. anybody that wanted him to, like, save his campaign are going to be disappointed. anybody that wanted to see him collapse would be disappointed. he just kind of hung in there. for me, headlines are nikki haley had moments. vivek did his best to insult absolutely everybody. chris christie was actually thrown off his game a bit by vivek, because they went back and forth. at one point, chris christie saying vivek sounded like chat gpt. again, desantis kind of held his own. all in all, probably not much of a change except a lot of press for vivek and, who knows? maybe some conspiracy theorists will support him coming out of this. >> yeah. if this was vivek ramaswamy's night to introduce himself to the country, which he said was his goal, for people who said, who is this guy? he did that. he earned a lot of time. he was center stage next to governor desantis. but also, with that time, he said, "we should cut off aid to ukraine all together." he said the climate change agenda was a joke. he'd issue a preemptive pardon for donald trump for all the crimes he's been alleged of. we'll see donald trump turning himself into fulton county today. yes, he had the spotlight and introduced himself, but that's what he did with it. to your point, joe and mika, ron desantis was center stage. he is polling the highest among the people who were there. 40 points behind donald trump in the latest poll, but he was, joe, he wasn't really there. i mean, he got off a few canned lines at the top. >> yeah. >> it was interesting to see that the fire from the other candidates was trained not at all on ron desantis. it was all going at vivek ramaswamy, which tells you what the rest of the field thinks about this race. >> yeah. well, along with joe, willie and me, we have former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan, doing "way too early" duties for us this morning. thank you, elise. the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. founder of the conservative website, the bulwark, charlie sykes is with us. attorney and contributing columnist at "the washington post," george conway is with us. and there's a lot of reasons why george is here today. former president trump is set to surrender to authorities at the fulton county jail tonight. trump will travel to georgia later today and will reportedly wait until primetime tv hours to officially turn himself in. here's a look at his co-conspirators who have already been booked. we have rudy giuliani, kenneth cheese borrow, sidney powell, jenna ellis. they all surrendered, and they have mug shots. it is quite something, that this so-called enterprise is beginning to turn itself in, joe. >> yeah. >> some of them in these mug shots, they did not seem to be taking the moment quite seriously. it is a very serious moment. >> well, they all understand, as we look at these mug shots, they all understand it is a very serious moment. george, let me go to you. i think you probably like me, unlike what rudy giuliani did, unlike people watching, look what rudy giuliani did in new york city, along with, again, everybody else. whatever you credit giuliani for anything, the turnaround of new york, everybody says, "well, what about this?" we'll throw everybody in there, everyone david dinkins. but he was mayor when there was a turnaround of new york city. i have to say, one of the great accomplishments, one of the great accomplishments for a city aye seen in my lifetime. new york city from 1989/1990 to 1995, unrecognizable. of course, many people very moved by what he did on 9/11. there were a couple days where george w. bush just didn't find his footing politically or rhetorically or in a lot of other ways, not really until he went to new york and stood on that pile of rubble. giuliani was, for those days, for millions and millions of americans, he was america's mayor. i look at that mug shot, and, listen, he deserves it. just has to be served. but what a sad, sad fall for a man who didn't have to be there. >> no, it's absolutely stunning. i remember being a law clerk in new york for the federal appeals court there in 1987 and '88. you know, he was u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. basically, you know, 10% or 20% of the briefs were, you know, had his name on it. he was defending rico convictions, trying to get them affirmed. now, he is charged with rico. if you had told me them or told me at the end of 2001 that 20, 30 years later, he would be a penniless, almost friendless, though he did have the private jet, i don't know where that came from, criminal defendant in a georgia state racketeering case, i would have looked at you like you were insane. but that's where we are. that's the fall, and it gets worse. he might not be able to pay a lawyer. i don't know where this goes for him, other than it is going to keep going down. >> it is a fascinating split screen for the republican party. so convoluted. last night, the candidates were asked on stage if they would still support the former president as the nominee if he is convicted in any of his ongoing legal battles. take a look. >> if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? please raise your hand if you would. [ applause ] just to be clear, governor christie, you were late to the game but raised your hand? >> no, i'm doing this. this, not this. >> i know you did. >> whether or not you believe that the criminal charges are right or wrong, the conduct is beneath the office of president of the united states. [ applause ] and this is the great thing about this country, booing is allowed, but it doesn't change the truth. it doesn't change the truth. >> president trump, i believe, was the best president of the 21st century. it's a fact. and chris christie, honest to god, your claim that donald trump is motivated by vegeance and grievance would be more credible if your campaign wasn't based on vengeance and grievance against one man. >> you want to stand up for the rule of law and law and order. >> yes. >> the fact is, it can't be selective. in your book, you had much different things to say about donald trump than you're saying here tonight. >> that's not true. >> oh, it is very true. i am not going to bow to anyone when we have a president of the united states who disrespects the constitution. it's important to say that the president said, donald trump said, it's okay to suspend the constitution. now, the oath you take is to preserve, protect and defend, not suspend. i will always stand up for our constitution regardless of the political pressure. >> when it comes to whether president trump should serve or not, i trust the american people. let them vote. let them decide. but what they will tell you is that it is time for a new generational conservative leader. we have to look at the fact that three quarters of americans don't want a rematch between trump and biden. and we have to face the fact that trump is the most disliked politician in america. we can't win a general election that way. >> that, charlie sykes, was nikki haley criticizing donald trump. also criticizing him for adding $8 trillion to the debt. on this question of legal matters in front of donald trump, ib including the one tod where he is turning himself into fulton county, it was at the left side of the screen, asa hutchinson and chris christie the only ones with full-throat ed opposition of donald trump's conduct. others were wish washing saying, we have to stop the weaponization of the justice department, saying joe biden was leading the prosecution of donald trump. what did you make, all in, of all what you saw last night? >> first, it was an extraordinary moment when you saw most of the candidates raising their hands whendirectl support donald trump for the presidency if he was convicted of felonies?" what a surreal moment that was. there were a couple surprises last night. number one, i don't think, by the way, that this was the debate that ron desantis wanted or that he needed. he felt like he was an afterthought by the end of the debate. yes, vivek came in very, very strong, but you saw his weaknesses later on when nikki haley took him down. i thought nikki haley overperformed. i mean, she was impressive. she was the adult in the room. she was the adult in the room on spending, on abortion, on ukraine. mike pence overperformed. but let's be honest, they were not appealing to the viewers of the bulwark or "morning joe." it was vivek who knew the maga world war, and he was playing to that. he was playing to the idealogical. look, he is a shallow, shameless, facile demagogue, which means he is probably going to get a bump in the republican polls. he might be in second place by the end of all of this. but i also thought it was extraordinary how little time they spent talking about the orange elephant not in the room. fox didn't talk about him the first hour. only 11 minutes on the fact that the former president is about to do a perp walk today. it was a mixed bag. i understand the people who are saying, you know, vivek came in hot and stole the spotlight, but i also think you saw his vulnerabilities later on when nikki haley just absolutely eviscerated him. >> rev, the section of donald trump, almost apologetic by the moderators, "we're just going to talk about this for a little bit, then we'll get back to the issues," and that was in the second hour. does this matter? desantis wasn't a factor last night. maybe that's important. vivek ramaswamy introduced himself, maybe that's important. but donald trump is up by, depending on your poll, 30, 35, 40 points over anyone on that stage. i think he is probably feeling good about not showing up. didn't need to. >> trump probably feels good that he didn't show up. he didn't lose anything by not showing up. my take aways were, when the question was asked, if donald trump was convicted, would you support him, and you saw most of the hands go up, you saw the resigning of the republican party being the law and order party. i mean, how do you look at that and ever take them seriously as the law and order party, when they said by their own hand raising, that we will excuse a convicted felon to be the president of the united states? you lose all credibility in that area, and it happens on the same day rudy giuliani is being booked and on the eve of your -- the guy you're saying you would support for president. not if he was indicted, if he was convicted was the question. you know, i ran for president in 2004 in the democratic primaries, and i can tell you, getting on the big stage is different than any pulpit i ever preached at and anything i've ever done. i watched to see how people could handle the big stage. you know, i'm not a baseball or football fan like you, but i loved boxing. vivek got his title spot last night, and he was good until he got punched. it's not enough to throw a good punch. you have to be able to take a punch. nikki haley scored a tko on him last night in front of the whole world. if i was vivek, i'd go back to the gym and let the trainer hit me because he can't take a hit. desantis almost wasn't there. he should have been in florida with trump. because both of them didn't show up last night. that's my opinion. and i think that, surprisingly, mike pence did well. >> yeah. i was surprised he came out of the ring unscathed, unscarred. i was surprised how tim scott underperformed. you almost forgot that he was there. i was watching it as somebody that's been in that ring. i was impressed that mike pence did not get punched, and i was actually impressed that nikki haley seemed to have the -- she came in with her fight game, and she did it. but i think that vivek was good the first five rounds, but they were telling 'em, take him out of the ring by the eighth round. >> yeah, waving that towel. waving that towel. so, yeah, very interesting. you brought up tim scott. i had actually forgotten about tim for a second. we've been talking -- i've been talking at least about how good he seems to be on the campaign trail, good on the stump, good talking to people. he was not good last night. i guess the story, the south carolina story, tim scott really underperformed last night. nikki haley really overperformed to expectations. that was a real surprise there. i do have to say, mika, i'm so glad that rev talked about how the republican party has forfeited forever the idea that they were ever some law and order party or ever supported justice or, you know, even the constitution. chris christie is getting booed when he brings up the unpleasant fact that donald trump said he wanted to terminate the constitution of the united states, if that's what it took for him to get back into the white house. but those candidates raised their hands, except for asa hutchinson and chris christie, to say they would support a president if he was convicted of stealing nuclear secrets, stealing military war plans to invade iran, stealing military assessments on what the weakest parts of the united states military was, of stealing a presidential election, and having everybody -- not liberals, not progressives -- having everybody around him say ing, not only did he try to steal a presidential election, he headed up a conspiracy to get fake electors, and then called the georgia secretary of state saying, "i need you steal 11,000 something votes for me." again, the fact that they would raise their hand and say that they would support a presidential candidate who was convicted, convicted of stealing nuclear secrets tells you, once again, so much more than you need to know about how low the republican party has fallen in 2023. it's sad, and it is pathetic. i, for one, think we need a strong republican party. this is not it. >> yeah. no, it's almost like the question was, would you forfeit the republican party for the cult of one personality, and several raised their hand. i mean, there were so many moments last night that said a lot about where the party stands, if you still call it a republican party. the democrats have very strong positions on guns, abortion, and democracy as it pertains to where the american people are. coming up after the break, we're going to see how the candidates faired on the issue of abortion, and there was one moment specifically that we're going to show you. we'll be right back with full coverage on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your 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[ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees. there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families. ♪ with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world is getting smaller because of my sight. but now, i can open up my world with vabysmo. vabysmo is the first fda-approved treatment for people with wet amd that improves vision and delivers a chance for up to 4 months between treatments. which means doing more of what i love. ♪ vabysmo is the only treatment designed to block 2 causes of wet amd. vabysmo is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active swelling in or around your eye, or are allergic to it or any of its ingredients. treatments like vabysmo can cause eye infection or retinal detachment. vabysmo may cause a temporary increase in eye pressure after receiving the injection. although uncommon, there is a potential risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. open up your world! a chance for up to 4 months between treatments with vabysmo. ask your doctor. welcome to "morning joe." spot of the capitol and some birds. hitchcock sight there. 6:24 on the east coast. george conway, regardless of what republicans thought last nightmilwaukee, donald trump is most likely going to be facing justice and facing justice again today. what do you expect as you look forward to the events of today in georgia? >> well, i look forward to the mug shot. i look forward to the spectacle, i guess. i mean, it's kind of sad. it is almost old hat now. you know, what's really, really sad was the events of last night, which will be soon forgotten, where you had six candidates saying they would vote for a person who is a convicted felon. i mean, it's just absolutely stunning, but this is going to be -- 2016 -- i mean, 2016 is all over again because everybody, they're all attacking everyone but trump. they're all going to end up nominating a candidate who, you know, will maybe be a convicted felon, will probably die in prison, and was found by a federal district court to be a rapist. it's crazy. i don't know what the box is you get out of the box. it's crazy. >> look at this. first of all, i want to get back to you and talk about how hard it'll be for him to get out of this box. i can't figure that out. but look at these people indicted in the georgia election probe, all for blindly following a guy about stealing an election. talk about -- i mean, you're a lawyer. you've seen how much one charge against somebody can impact their life. especially from the feds. the feds usually don't miss. when they go after you, the feds get you. if they prosecute you, like, they convict you most of the time. talk about what the future looks like for most of these people, and then talk about donald trump with 90 indictments against him. how does he not end up in jail? listen, i know, i've spent years saying he will always escape justice. he always escapes justice. no man is above the law, but donald trump it is it seems. here, i go through every scenario. i don't see how he stays out of jail. >> i agree with that. i mean, essentially, he has been playing russian roulette with the law and has loaded every single chamber. he's not going to make it through all of this. the only way he can make it through all of this is if, somehow, he wins the presidency and then can declare himself immune from going to jail or being prosecuted. i don't think that's going to happen. and he is -- you know, as for all of the other defendants, i mean, i don't think there will be 18 defendants by the time this case goes to trial. i mean, i think you're already seeing them in conflict. you're already seeing different strategies playing out. you're seeing that some of these defendants, even rudy giuliani who came down in a private plane, he can't find a lawyer. he can't pay one. he has to sell his co-op in new york. these people, all of these people, a lot of them are going to end up having to plea. jenna ellis, no one is paying her legal fees. it is going to be trump ending up all by himself or just a couple of other people, and i don't see how he survives that. you know, the georgia case is going to take the longest probably to resolve because it is a multi-defendant case. you know, jack smith has brought this absolute laser beam of a case in d.c. it's not complicated. it is just looking at his conduct. that case, i'm going to be surprised if that case doesn't go to trial within a year and he is convicted. i don't see how he gets out of that. and the mar-a-lago documents case, the only thing he has going for him there is that the judge is this judge who actually ruled in his favor a few times and got slammed for it. i don't know how she can save him, other than delaying the trial. she hasn't really shown an inclination to do that. i mean, at the end of the day, you've got these individuals who are going to testify that he, you know, moved the boxes around. you've got tapes. he moved the boxes around. you have this i.t. guy who just flipped, who basically says that he was told that the boss wanted to cover this up. you know, he's dead to right there. again, 91 counts, you don't -- the prosecutors don't have to go 91 for 91. a lot of these felonies are 5, 10, 20 years. all it takes is a few counts, and he's done for the rest of his life. >> by the way, with the i.t. guy flipping, there may be more flipping to come as people look at the potential for jail time. they're not going to jail for donald trump. elise, our colleagues at cnbc are reporting that donald trump is going to hold a fundraiser for rudy giuliani's legal defense fund. finally i guess he answered rudy's call. $100,000 a plate at bedminster in a couple weeks to get rudy some legal help. but we are watching at the debate last night, and this question we've been talking about, of would you still support donald trump? would you still vote for him if he is a convicted felon? some hands went up quickly, but, notably, ron desantis looked down the aisle and said, "are we doing this," and then he raised his hand. what did you make of the moment. >> convictions. i think specifically with ron desantis, it was the problem that he had all night, of not really being there, not being firm, decisive, having a presence. but the republicans writ large, it shows how they just do not want to attack donald trump. they see the electoral vulnerabilities that come with attacking donald trump. asa hutchinson and chris christie said that they wouldn't vote for him, but the rest of the crowd was still there. >> another notable moment around january 6th and the 2020 elections was when the moderators asked the panel, did former vice president mike pence, who was on the stage last night, do the right thing in certifying the election? here was their reaction. >> do you believe that mike pence did the right thing, senator scott? do you believe he did the right thing? >> absolutely, he did the right thing. number one. number two, we should be asking ourselves a bigger question about the weaponization of the department of justice. when i'm president, the first thing i'll do is fire merrick garland. second thing i'll do, fire christopher wray. >> mike pence stood for the constitution, and he deserves not grudging credit, he deserves our thanks as americans for putting his oath of office and the constitution of the united states before personal, political and unfair pressure. >> i do think that vice president pence did the right thing, and i do think we need to give him credit for that. >> i've answered this before. >> so yes? >> mike did his duty. i got no beef with him. but here's the thing, is this what we're going to be focusing on moving forward, the rehashing of this? >> governor desantis -- >> democrats would love that. >> the president asked me in his request that i reject or return votes unilaterally, power no vice president in american history had ever exercised or taken, he asked me to put him over the constitution. i chose the constitution. >> charlie, in some cases there, a grudging affirmation of what mike pence did. ron desantis, notably, said, yeah, yeah, he did the right thing, but, but. tim scott said, yes, but. the suggestion is, yes, mike pence did the right thing in the case, but what is really important as we talk about donald trump and the legal problems, the justice department has been weaponized. suggestion that, somehow, joe biden is ordering all of these investigations into donald trump which, of course, is not how any of this works at all. it may be offensive to a lot of people watching this show today, what we heard last night, but is it to the base, who the candidates are speaking to? >> no question, that's what the base wants to hear. you can almost think of this as two debates, two primaries. you have the maga primary which, clearly, vivek won, and then you had the, you know, donor/normy debate. i think that nikki haley really scored points there. i think she'll get another look at folks looking for an alternative. i have to say, that may have been chris christie's finest moment, standing next to mike pence and devoting his time to defending what the vice president did. it was very clear, in a very articulate way. mike pence not shying away from the decision he made on january 6th. but we should be under no illusions, that the people like vivek and ron desantis were appealing to the majority of republican primary voters. by the way, that clip kind of captures just the awkwardness of ron desantis who spent much of the debate shouting and, you know, the man does not seem comfortable in his own skin. can't quite figure out, how do you run against donald trump without antagoniing the majority of republicans who don't want to talk about january 6th, who don't want to, you know, confront the fact that the former president of the united states might be a convicted felon by, you know, november? so there was -- there were little outbreaks of clarity and principle there, and i think you saw that. >> also, just so bush league. it was just so bush league of ron desantis, like, screeching, "really, are we going to talk?" >> very shouty. >> it is very shouty and nervous and not knowing what to do. i mean, i always told political candidates when they asked for advice, like, if you've got something that you're uncomfortable about doing, go for it. go head on into it. nobody stops you when you're going 90 miles an hour. that's the thing that you see with all these people. tim scott, "well, yes, but let's talk about the weaponization of politics. like --" he stole nuclear secrets. you can go 90 miles an hour, talk the truth about this guy, and then talk about the future. you can. nobody here, other than chris christie, seems to be able to do it. rev, i want to stop for one second. stop, of what happened last night for one second, and talk about mike pence. because we have a lot to be concerned about in this country, and we have a lot we could be concerned about regarding mike pence. including him saying he would vote for a convicted donald trump. i do want to say, though, that it was impossible, and i was glad to see most on stage having to say he did the right thing, it takes you back to january 6th. and but for mike pence. if mike pence had not put himself in a position where he risked his life and he risked the life of his family, this country would have gone hurtling toward a constitutional crisis, the likes of which we haven't seen since the civil war, and we probably would have moved towards something resembling a civil war. so i'm glad that question was asked last night. i'm glad that most of them answered the right way. but how sad that people like ron desantis had to be petulant in their response and couldn't just say, "yeah, he saved our country and the constitution." or tim scott going, "yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but. hunter biden's laptop." how sad. they couldn't just sit back and go, yeah, that guy, i'm running against him, i have issues with him, but on that day, on january 6th, when he said no to donald trump and that mob who wanted to lynch him, mike pence did a pretty incredible thing for this country and the constitution. >> i don't think there is a question about that. i probably disagree with mike pence on 99% of the issues, but the fact is, that history will say that mike pence was the thing that stopped us as a country from going into a clear undermining and cementing of the undermining of where votes don't matter and that we are going into the never neverland of fake electors. where that would lead us, no one knows. he did the right thing. for people on that stage last night asking to become the president of the united states, to equivocate, hesitate or try to rush through an answer to give another answer, to cover themselves with who they think is the base, shows they're unfit to be president. there are some things that are just basic, that you have to say, "this is what i'm about. that's why i deserve to sit in that seat." when i saw them equivocating on a fundamental question, not of the personality of mike pence, but where mike pence stood up and enforced and stood with the constitution, they equivocated there, they forfeited that right to sit behind that desk in the oval office as far as i'm concerned. how do you trust somebody that has to try to weigh whether or not somebody did the right thing to protect the office and the country that you are seeking? there is no excuse for that. >> yeah. it's actually sad we're even having this conversation. george conway and charlie sykes, thank you both very much for being on this morning. and coming up, big news out of russia. wagner chief prigozhin, who performed the coup attempt in russia, was found dead in a plane crash. we'll speak with retired navy admiral james stavridis about what happened and the growing questions surrounding putin's possible involvement. 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i just -- knowing this man, having read about him, i guess that might be a question. >> well, i just -- julia ioffe, who knows a little bit about russia, the way russians think and the way russians act, i tweeted this line from her newsletter about this. she said, prigozhin, it seems, is dead. >> yeah. >> the, "it seems," of course, does an awful lot there. >> yes, it does. >> i agree with you. i mean, you just never know. he is dead if that serves vladimir putin's services. if having him run around africa killing pro-democracy forces undercover serves his purposes, then that's the case, too. elise jordan, there is no doubt he wants his enemies, his rivals in russia to certainly think at least that prigozhin is dead. we're not saying he is not. we're just saying we can't trust anything russian state media says right now. it's hard to confirm this for sure. >> well, and since the day that prigozhin attempted this coup, i just assumed, and you heard from russia analysts who know far more than i do, that prigozhin was a dead man walking. what surprised me was that putin actually gave him two months. i wonder what was said in the interim that placated prigozhin to make him feel that he had some modicum of safety. because he still was able to travel around. he could have gone into exile. he had different paths that he could have chosen to have ensured his security, but he felt like staying in the game. look what happened. >> yeah, and i have to say, willie, too, as we now -- i think we have the admiral on the line now, and we'll go to him. willie, first, i have to say, i always was -- i was suspicious about this. when vladimir putin's chef kept attacking vladimir putin's military leaders, i just thought, this is an inside game. putin doesn't want to attack the powers that be in moscow by himself, so this is an inside game. he is having his chef attack this guy, and then, again, you never know. you never know what's going on. just like you didn't know what was going on in the kremlin with the soviet union. kremlinologists were paid a lot of money in western think tanks to try to figure it out. who knows what happened here? maybe he was on the plane, got blown out of the sky. regardless, vladimir putin certainly can't have that guy running around as the admiral predicted, people thinking that he can get away with staging a coup against putin. >> by the way, you are not alone in that suspicion. when the wagner group was marching toward moscow, abruptly stopped, and within a couple hours, there was a deal struck with another nation to end it, there were some suspicions among experts on russia, that happened a little too quickly. admiral stavridis is with us and joins us now. you called this many times. you said, you know, not long for this world, likely, is prigozhin. what is your suspicion or what you've heard from your sources around the world about what may have happened yesterday? >> yeah, the only mystery here, i think, willie, is why did it take so long? when i predicted with our colleague chuck todd on "meet the press" that, hey, it's going to be 30, 60, 90 days, i actually thought it would be sooner than that. i was giving myself a little bit of time. in the end, it reads like a novel. here's the point that struck me and really chills me, the public nature of this. this was essentially a public execution. >> yup. >> you know, who is randomly filming a private jet flying between moscow and st. petersburg? they knew roughly when the bomb was going to go off, would be my guess. we have very dramatic footage. you get to imagine the last moments of yevgeny prigozhin and, by the way, presumably surrounded by his closest family, friends, associates. it's a horrible way to die, and then to be flashed across the screens of the world. no real surprise here, it is a marker of how lethal and how deadly and how unscrupulous vladimir putin is. not that we needed any reminder of that. >> admiral, you point out how gory and staged almost for television, to remind and show other enemies of putin what he does when he comes for you. do you think putin feels the need in the aftermath of the coup to dramatically reassert that he is still in power? >> sure. read machiavelli, "the prince." when you go for the king, you better kill the king. that's what prigozhin failed to do. putin knew he needed -- your point is a good one, elise -- he needed to demonstrate, and pretty quickly as it turns out, who is really running the joint. i think that even over the last couple of days, you see the bricks are together. brazil, russia, india, south africa. in south africa, having a conference. putin is playing to that international audience, and he is also playing to his domestic audience. >> admiral, given the description you gave of the video and sort of giving everybody a front row seat to this execution, i mean, isn't prigozhin a fairly wily, smart character? i wonder why he'd get on the plane. why wouldn't he have five private jets lined up and get on the one that -- i don't know. it doesn't make sense to me that that man, knowing his reality, would get on a plane. >> i agree. what i'll add to your thought, mika, is, never underestimate the human capacity to decide who got passed that one. you know, how many times in all of our lives do we sort of say, boy, i'm going to get by this one. oh, by the way, we can see plenty of examples on the national stage of people who think they're going to get away with something. i think prigozhin thought he had gotten through this. final thought here, i think it is also a measure of putin, how clever he is. his ability to manipulate others. his ability to allow people to think, it's okay. i am going to forgive you. i'm the big one here. i'm the adult in the room. he lets you go down that mental path until your airplane falls out of the sky. >> so i'm curious -- >> yikes. >> -- your assessment of vladimir putin right now. admiral, obviously on his back heels for much of the past year and a half. the economy not doing well. the military doing horribly. actually, the russian military is holding now. the summer has been good for them, moving into the fall. they're at least holding. i know air power may change that equation. i'm curious, it seems things have solidified a bit for him, even if his military is ravaged, even if his economy is weaker than ever before. what's your take? >> you know, if vladimir putin were a stock, he's probably lost 30% of his value since the beginning of this episode. that's both internally and externally. his military, although you're correct, is holding, he's lost a huge percentage of his troops. he's lost a huge percentage of his tanks. they're holding because they're locked in behind defensive positions. he's lost the capacity to conduct offensive operations on the ground of any nature. i think he is diminished, but he is far from knocked out. as we have seen, he has other cards he can play. he can use cyber. he could use a weapon of mass destruction, god forbid. he could gain more traction with the iranians. let's hope they're too smart for that. he has cards he can still play here, joe, but he is much diminished. he gets a little bit of a bump in taking out prigozhin, i suppose. that's really playing to the internal audience and also to the external group of his allies and friends. diminished but far from out is how i would categorize him this morning. >> retired four-star navy admiral, james stavridis, thank you very much for being on this morning. before we go to break, this saturday, thousands of people will gather in the nation's capital on the 60th anniversary of the 1963 march on sharpton, going to be there. tell us more about it. >> 60 years ago this weekend was when there was the great march on washington. history records that martin luther king made a speech, "i have a dream," which went into history. i don't think in the 60 years since then, and i've been involved in the last three decade commemorations, but this one is different because never have we seen the freedoms, the rights that were gained after the civil rights movement not only under threat but removed. affirmative action is basically gone. women's right to choose, lgbtq rights. so martin luther king iii and andrea king of the drum major institute and myself from the national action network, working along with anti-defamation league and others, are saying this is not a commemoration, it is a continuation. we're here to fight for the rights of today. it'll be a diverse crowd. it will also show how you go to washington and raise your voice in a strong yet non-violent way. i would hope saturday night after the march that you contrast january 6th with what you see on saturday. >> reverend al, thank you so much. we'll see you back tomorrow for more on saturday's march. still ahead this morning, a live report from outside the fulton county jail ahead of donald trump's surrender later today on charges stemming from his efforts to overturn georgia's 2020 election results. plus, white house hopeful chris christie is our guest after squaring off on the gop debate stage last night. "morning joe" is back in a moment. and now i'm winning again. blue-emu is the powerful relief i need. shop our expanded family of products at major online retailers. he snores like an angry rhino. you've never heard an angry rhino. baby i hear one every night. every night. okay. i'll work on that. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. it was the worst pandemic in a hundred years, the worst economic crisis since the great depression, but america fought back. today, unemployment is at record lows. our economy leading the world. joe biden passed historic laws to rebuild the country, but he knows it's the american people who are the heroes of this story. america is back... we've shown each other and the world that there's no quit in america. there's simply no quit in america. in small towns and big cities... we're coming back stronger than ever. manufacturing jobs are coming home. high-speed 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debt. our kids are never going to forgive us for this. at the end of the day, you look at the 2024 budget. republicans asked for $7.4 billion in earmarks. democrats asked for $2.8 billion. you tell me who are the big spenders. i think it's time for an accountant in the white house. >> my god, why somebody telling the truth to the republican party -- i've been saying this for years. >> it's so weird. >> for years. >> yup. >> for years, this has been the reality. you have had with donald trump, you had the biggest deficits in u.s. history. under donald trump, you had the biggest national debt in u.s. history. under donald trump, you had the biggest pork laden budgets, federal budgets in u.s. history. that was all before covid. i mean, nikki haley is talking about the covid relief bill. his record was horrific and republicans' record was horrific. you can go back through my twitter feed. come on, republicans, speak up. speak out. he's bankrupting america. he's stealing from our children. do something. say something! i went to mark memeadows, had lunch with him when he was the head of the freedom caucus, like, "buddy, stop all this insanity, and worry about first thing's first." like, you guys are bankrupting america. you're supposed to be the conservative group that stops this. but they wouldn't do it. donald trump, a guy who promised he'd pay down the debt, is the guy who put us $8 trillion deeper in debt. we went more in debt in donald trump's four years -- stay with me. if there are republicans, stay with me, because you have to understand how this guy, this guy who is so damaging, not just to our constitution but to our bottom line. take every president from george washington through george w. bush's first term. they didn't accumulate the debt that donald trump did in four years. 225 years of this republic. they did it in four years. i've got to say, willie, it's fascinating that, actually, nikki haley said that last night. the fact is, i just found republicans love talking about deficits when democrats are in the white house, but they love raising 'em and love raising the debt limit when republicans are in the white house. >> they find their debt hawkishness when the democrat returns. as you've said, we've been saying this on the show for years and years and years. i think the reason you saw three almost shocked faces as you came out of the clip with nikki haley is we don't hear it from republicans often. it was part of why, arguably, governor haley, ambassador haley, was the most interesting person on the stage last night, because she was, in her moments, telling some truth about donald trump. saying he was the least popular politician in america. america does not want a trump/biden rematch. that's born out in the polls. she cited the numbers. she said he added $8 trillion to the debt. she scolded in that moment right there vivek ramaswamy about continuing support for ukraine and why that's important. will it matter? we don't know, guys. but for sure, she had a good night. let's bring into the conversation -- >> absolutely. >> -- msnbc contributor, our good friend mike barnicle. senior political columnist for "politico," jonathan martin. editor of protect democracy, amanda carpenter. elise jordan is still with us, as well. amanda, i'll start with you. in your general assessment of what we saw last night, vivek ramaswamy certainly commanded the stage, but when he did and had his moment and made his introduction, he put forth a bunch of conspiracy theories and certainly drew the fire. not ron desantis, notably, but it was ramaswamy drawing the fire of people like mike pence, nikki haley and chris christie. >> i'm glad you led with nikki haley. because when i was watching her last night, i was like, wow, that is what republicans should sound like. you know, we talk about sometimes, like, what would it look like on earth if donald trump wasn't there? the first hour of the debate was like all the republicans were sort of living in earth two. even fox news. isn't that sort of the problem? nikki haley, i'm so thankful that she took such strong stance for ukraine, because not only republicans needed to hear that but the world needed to hear that. there are republicans who truly believe in the cause of democracy, not just in america but abroad. but the problem is, nikki haley is down behind trump. they're all behind trump 20, 30, 40 points. everybody kind of wants to look past that. i mean, even fox news, the way they set up that debate was like, we're not going to talk about anything tough. we're not going to address the really hard question until maybe the second hour. we're going to get through this section really briefly. bret baier had to turn to the audience and sort of stop them from booing, saying, like, we're just going to get through this section quickly. if you care about democracy, the threat that donald trump poses to the rule of law, coming back as a returning president after having campaigned on an entire platform of grievance and contempt for the rule of law and our political processesdebate, t they all should be talking about. not brushing it as an aside to something we just have to get through, because that is what he is campaigning on and winning with. >> poor ron desantis melted down. when they asked him, did mike pence do the right thing? what a hard question, ron. yeah, i like the constitution. jonathan martin, your take on last night? >> i thought, joe, you touched on a really key point. ron desantis on that answer, but also really more broadly, his entire candidacy, he wants to avoid making a choice. he wants to be the candidate who doesn't make the choice. you saw what the choices were last night very starkly. choice one, pre-trump party, mike pence, nikki haley, who want to make a choice and say, we are pre-trump republicans. then there is the post-trump party, which is vivek being a trump apologist at every turn and effectively running for, you know, the trump second term. i think, joe, it's really difficult. the donor class wants the former, and a lot of the voters want the latter. where is he left? >> well, we're left right now with former president trump set to surrender today to authorities at the fulton county jail. he's decided to do it tonight. he will travel to georgia later today and will reportedly wait until primetime television hours to officially turn himself in. here's the look so far at his co-conspirators who have already been booked. rudy giuliani, kenneth cheseboro, sidney powell, and jenna ellis. they all surrendered yesterday, along with a few others who surrendered before. last night, the candidates were asked if they would still support the former president as the nominee if he is convicted in any of his ongoing legal battles. he has dozens and dozens of charges against him. the moderators also pressed the candidates on whether mike pence did the right thing on january 6th. pretty simple question. take a look. >> if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? please raise your hand if you would. just to be clear, governor christie, you were late to the game, but you raised your hand? >> no, i'm doing this. >> i know you didn't. >> whether or not you believe that the criminal charges are right or wrong, the conduct is beneath the office of president of the united states. [ applause ] >> president trump, i believe, was the best president of the 21st century. it's a fact. and chris christie, honest to god, your claim that donald trump is motivated by vengeance and grievance would be a lot more credible if your entire campaign were not based on vengeance and grievance against one man. >> we should be asking ourselves a bigger question about the weaponization of the department of justice. when i'm president, the first thing i'll do is fire merrick garland. second thing i'll do is fire christopher wray. because we need lady justice to wear a blindfold. without that, no one has confidence in our justice system. >> you believe that mike pence did the right thing on january 6th? >> here's what we need to do, we need to end the weaponization of these federal agencies. >> that's not the question. >> that's not the question. >> i know. but here's the thing -- >> answer the question. >> this election is not about january 6th of 2021. it's about january 20th of 2025, when the next president is going to take office. >> governor hutchinson, you did not raise your hand. >> i did not raise my hand because there's an important issue. we as a party have to face it. and over a year ago, i said that donald trump was morally disqualified from being president again as a result to what happened on january 6th. more people are understanding the importance of that, including conservative legal scholars who says he may be disqualified under the 14th amendment from being president again. >> when it comes to whether president trump should serve or not, i trust the american people. let them vote. let them decide. we have to look at the fact that three quarters of americans don't want a rematch between trump and biden. and we have to face the fact that trump is the most disliked politician in america. we can't win a general election that way. >> you do learn a lot about these people watching the answers, especially the pitiful answers from ron desantis, tim scott and vivek ramaswamy. mike barnicle, i'm curious, chris christie made an interesting and, i think, powerful point, that whether or not you think he should be convicted in the court of law, okay, put that aside. his conduct alone is not what we want as american citizens. i think that might break through for some die-hard trump supporters. >> well, the jury is out on that, mika. that, i don't know about, but it was a revealing and depressing performance, a two-hour performance. chris christie, i think, was one of the people who scored some points. i don't know with whom, but he certainly scored some points. nikki haley, another. we've seen her, she was very strong. the former vice president, mike pence, had a pretty good night. the rest of them, including the incredibly annoying vivek ramaswamy. unbelievably annoying human being, made for a long, long night. but my problem with watching the debate was this debate opened -- and joe eluded to this a couple moments ago when he was talking about what's happened to the debt and the deficits in this country over the last five or six years due largely to donald trump. this country has suffered great damage. none more so than the injection into the political bloodstream that the election of 2020 was fixed, was rigged. how do you begin a debate with any of the candidates, republican or democrat, without asking them the yes or no question, was joseph r. biden legitimately elected president of the united states, yes or no? that way, we know where you're going to go on continuing this poison that's in the political culture today. no one asked that. >> when it was raised, not that question but the subject of donald trump, it was raised an hour in and almost apologetically. we've got to get through this. talking to the audience, please don't boo, we have to get through this and back to the stuff these guys want to talk about. amanda, it has to be asked, it was an interesting night, revealing night, as mika said, we learned a lot about the people and their views, particularly raising their hand, most of them. ron desantis after checking with everyone else to see if they were raising their hands to say, "yes, i'd support this man, even if he is a convicted felon." the larger question, as donald trump reports to fulton county later tonight, is does any of what we saw last night matter? yes, governor haley had a good night. yes, vivek ramaswamy introduced himself to the country. all that may be true, but they're all down by 30 points. they're down by 40 points according to the latest yahoo! news/ugov poll. did anything last night matter? did it change the race? >> that was my question going into the debate. sort of, you know, what is the point of this republican primary? if the leading candidates are auditioning to be trump's top surrogate when it comes to defending him on the things he's most vulnerable on, like his four arrests, the fact he is getting a mug shot today. if ron desantis is not willing to -- not even talk about the subject but defend trump on the subject, why are you running against him? a republican primary is meant to challenge and vet candidates, right? if you want to talk about electability, nikki haley sort of got there. she said donald trump is disliked. how about the fact that president biden and democrats are almost certain to make this a focus of their campaigns? these criminal charges, as this goes to the courts, is almost certainly going to dominate the news and our lives for the next two years. if you can't get to the point about saying we really have to grapple with the fact about how we prosecute alleged criminal conduct from a former president and that matters for rule of law, i would be there for that debate. i'd like to have it, but i understand why ron desantis can't do it. why can't you just say, he's not going to be available to campaign against joe biden because he is going to be in court, right? you can make an electability argument in that way, but they're not interested in doing that. i see this, you know, as it might be the beginning of a coronation, not a real challenge. >> you know, amanda, i get tired saying this, but we republicans, and i can talk about you and me here, we republicans used to care about winning elections. in fact, i don't know, you can accuse some of us of carrying maybe a little too much of winning elections. you bring these things up, and there will be people out in trump land going, oh, left-wing traitor. left-wing subversive, left-wing this. we're talking about deficits. we're talking about debt. we're talking about the constitution. we're talking about the things that reagan talked about, protecting freedom in western europe, protecting freedom in central europe, protecting freedom in eastern europe. we're talking about these basic issues that trumpers don't believe in. and then, on top of that, we're talking about how to win. what you just said, there's nothing wild about that or radical about that. if you want to win the election, if you want to beat joe biden, put nikki haley up. she'll beat joe biden. put ron desantis up. ron desantis will probably beat joe biden. put tim scott up. tim scott will beat. like, we are in a position now where they could put just about anybody up against joe biden, and for whatever reason -- i can't really explain it. i do think biden has done very well in many areas, but republicans would win. yet, i will just say it, the idiots that were booing people saying that we had to adhere to the constitution of the united states, they don't care about winning elections anymore. they only care about -- like, they think they own the libs. that's kind of like the white house guy, i think -- i forgot his name, bought the sushi, somebody said something terrible about him, and he threw away the sushi, thinking he was owning the libs. he just threw $100 of sushi away. forgive me for going on and on, but, my god, what you said was so basic. yet, this trump republican party, they don't listen because they're too interested in making a point instead of winning elections and changing america. >> well, i think what you see is the difference between strategy and leadership, between candidates who are actually in the business of persuading voters to adopt a better vision for america and people that look at a chart and hire consultants and are actually afraid of their voters and are afraid of the other candidates they're campaigning against, to try to come up with a way to tell them what they want to hear and reflect back to them what they want to hear and win votes that way. that's the tragedy of ron desantis. everyone was excited in the beginning. we have this young florida governor, young family, doing great in the state. you may disagree with him on covid policies, but he won the argument there. maybe this is the way to move past trump. but he didn't have it in him to project that better version on his own merits. he wanted to look at what trump had carved out and say, how can i pick up the pieces of that and draft behind him? so that's a mistake. until we find a candidate who can break free from this and find their own way to talk to voters about the hard issues, like they're adults, like they believe in these values again, remind them. you saw glimmers of that last night. you saw glimmers of it with christie. you saw glimmers with pence. you saw it come out with haley. but it is not enough to do one time on a debate stage. it is going to take years of work, if it ever happens. >> donald trump was not on the stage, but he was up into the wee hours of the morning on his social media site ramaswamy. tonight, he goes to atlanta. blayne alexander joins us live from in front of the fulton county jail, where the former president will report tonight. good morning. >> reporter: willie, good morning to you. that's right, in fact, he is going to use this entrance. we expect him to come here sometime this evening to surrender and be booked and processed at the fulton county jail. a couple of things that we know about this. one, remember, this is a president, a former president, rather, who was also a former reality tv star, so this is going to be a primetime surrender. it is going to happen later this evening. once he is inside, we don't know how long he is going to spend inside the building. rudy giuliani, for instance, was there for less than an hour. another co-defendant, john eastman, was in there about 90 minutes. still tbd exactly how much time he is going to spend in the building. we know that he is going to be fingerprinted, possibly have a mug shot taken once he is inside. then, of course, he is going to be released on a $200,000 bond. but you heard what he said in his pre-taped interview with tucker carlson last night. he slammed all four investigations surrounding him, but specifically took aim at the fulton county d.a., saying she was somebody who didn't want him to simply protest the results of an election or question the results of an election. he has not been in any way silent leading up to his trip to atlanta later today. he's said he is proudly coming down here to be arrested. keep in mind, all of this is coming, willie, as we've seen this kind of parade of surrenders throughout the week. a number of co-defendants have been turning themselves in. we've seen mug shots coming out from the fulton county jail. now, his former white house chief of staff, mark meadows, had his request for his arrest to be blocked, and it was denied. the d.a. plans to issue an arrest warrant for anyone who does not surrender by the deadline, tomorrow at noon. >> blayne alexander outside the jail where the former president of the united states will report tonight. thanks so much. jonathan martin, extraordinary moment we have to pause and acknowledge. yes, we've seen the former president in and out of courtrooms, but tonight reporting to jail, perhaps getting a mug shot that some suggested he might enjoy, that he could put on t-shirts and flags. >> right. >> this is not -- his instinct is to have a primetime moment, and he may say things afterward, but this is not the "apprentice" finale, it is shining a bright light on alleged serious crimes. >> it is. and the contrast of his challengers saying they'll still support him even if he is convicted of crimes, it shows what he's done to the party. that's what the voters expect of them. that gets to the heart of the challenge here, willie. the gop has a voter challenge. it's not a candidate issue. there are voters that don't care about trump's alleged criminality. they're not moved by it. some are. not enough of them to really back trump off his pedestal. i think the reason why last night matters is because the only issue looming over this primary is can any trump alternative consolidate votes and emerge as the sole alternative? last night, it was more muddled after the debate than it was before the debate in terms of that very question. is there any one person that can emerge as trump's alternative? you know, clearly, that has not happened yet. >> all right. "politico's" jonathan martin and protect democracy's amanda carpenter, thank you both very much for being on this morning. we appreciate the conversation. still ahead on "morning joe," 2024 presidential hopeful chris christie joins the conversation live from milwaukee after hitting that debate stage last night. but first, maryland governor wes moore, a member of the biden campaign 2024 adviory board, is standing by with his biggest takeaways from last night. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. check it out, you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, i'll look into that. let me put a reminder on my phone. save $700 dollars. pick up dad from airport? ohhhhhh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son, prices are crazy, [son deflates] awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪ half past the hour. vice president kamala harris is slamming what the candidates said at the debate last night. she writes in part, quote, no one on stage won the debate. instead, the american people heard how much they stand to lose from an extremist agenda. one by one, each extremist republican candidate laid out a vision for an america that is less fair, less free, and less safe. meanwhile, president biden is agreeing with something nikki haley said last night. he posted the following video with the caption, "what she said." take a look. >> you have ron desantis. you've got tim scott. you've got mike pence. they all voted to raise the debt, and donald trump added $8 trillion to our debt. our kids are never going to forgive us for this. >> joining us in studio, the democratic governor of the great state of maryland, wes moore. he is a member of the biden/harris 2024 national advisory board. good to see you. >> good to see you, too. >> before we get to the debate and other stuff, when you were sworn into office in january, the orioles were coming off a fourth place, unremarkable season. since you took office, they have the best record in the american league. is there a connection, sir? >> i think so. they're going to be a juggernaut for years to come. this is maryland's decade. that includes we're going to get world series rings in the ballpark. >> maybe one this year. >> we might. they're a talented and young team in baseball. fun to watch. >> is it okay if we yankee fans can be adopted? >> our coat tails are long. come on board. >> we need something. well, let's talk about what we saw last night. we've been talking this morning about the debate. eight people on the stage minus donald trump. what'd you make of what you heard? >> it made me realize how glad i am to have joe biden as a partner in this work. the singular world view was divisive. the singular world view was there is a specific playbook they were all playing to, but there is no plan. and, you know, i think about it where we watched eight people on the stage talk about, you know, things like national abortion bans. eight people on stage talked about how much they'd want to cut medicaid and social security. we watched eight people say law and order doesn't matter because convictions to them wouldn't matter. the thing that was really, i think, alarming for me is i'm going around the state of maryland all the time. i don't care what part i'm going to, democratic or republican areas, what they were saying was not speaking to them. i'm not hearing that. i'm not hearing the conversations about national abortion bans. i'm not hearing conversations about, is climate change a hoax? when 70% of my state is water lined or water locked areas. we see the impacts of this every single day. so they just weren't speaking to the people of my state or, frankly, i'm not sure who they were actually speaking to last night. >> i guess the question to you that we've been asking republicans and conservatives this morning is, did anything we saw last night matter? you have a guy in donald trump who is up 30 points, 40 point, pick your poll, did that matter last night, or was it instructive to understand the world view of the party at this point? >> yeah, especially when you watch people stand up and line up and say that, you know, regardless of the fact that we now have a person who is going to be on trial for things like trying to overthrow democracy. >> yeah. >> a person is on trial for stealing nuclear codes. i tell this, as a combat vet myself, the idea that you would sacrifice the safety of people who wear the uniform of this country, and you're on trial of that. regardless of what a jury or a judge says, you're saying, i'd still support them to lead, i think that was a -- it was remarkably dangerous. the thing i think about and why i am excited and enthusiastic to continue to support the biden administration is the work that's happening right now. we see it every day, and it matters. right? i can tell you in the state of maryland, the work that we've already done, the partnerships we've done, the fact we're putting $267 million into broadband expansion. tend of my first term, i want the entire state covered with affordable and expansive broadband, and that's in democratic and republican areas. the state of maryland received over $3.5 billion from the infrastructure act, the bipartisan infrastructure act, which is going to fix roads and bridges and tunnels. the frederick douglass tunnel in baltimore alone will be 30,000 jobs. that's real stuff and not performative talking points. that's real, economic impacts that changes the trajectory for families. i don't think much changed last night because i think people are seeing on the ground the fact that we have an administration, and, frankly, as a governor, i have a partner that is making things happen in people's lives. >> governor, one of the things that perhaps struck more than a few people is the lack of emphasis or discussion last night about something that -- and your travels around maryland might figure this out -- that's at the core of family life, average american families. the grammar school and high school education of their children, there was no discussion of that last night. it seems somewhat that most of the republican party is really interested in public schools, public school libraries, about restricting books and banning books. but in your travels around your state, what kind of -- what do you hear about the need to improve public education? >> i'm hearing that we need a public school education system that is t our children how to read and do math. i'm hearing that we need an education system that is going to teach our students how not just to be employees but how to be employers. to actually drive economic growth. i'm hearing we want an education system that is starting earlier because we know 80% of brain development happens in a child by the time the child is 5 years old. why children are starting school at 5 makes no sense. i'm hearing we need an education system that is going to invest in career technical education. while i'm proud we have some of the best four-year institutions in the country, we are also going to end this myth that every single one of the students have to attend one of them in order to be economically successful. but the thing we're seeing is that the investments that have been made within our state, the investments that have been made in partnership with what we're seeing from the biden administration, that's actually hitting people where they are. that's actually making sure we can have a high-quality public school education system that is going to prepare our students for not just the jobs of now, but also for the jobs of the future. and the distraction, the shiny object of focusing on things like, you know, book bans and telling people that books like "beloved" and, you know, "between the world and me" should somehow be banned from children's educational roster, it's not only a distraction. it's not only offensive, but what it is also doing, it is getting us away from the core elements of public school educational supports that the biden administration is pushing, that us at the state levels have been making sure are being reinforced in our states, and really making sure we're focusing on creating a long-term, sustainable and competitive economy that everyone can benefit from. >> governor moore, nice to say that, this campaign pitch from the biden/harris team is similar to 2020, in that they're stressing this is extreme maga. to save democracy, you've got to keep joe biden in office. does that pitch work a second go-around? >> i think about this idea of democracy. you know, i heard last night repeatedly from a few of the people on stage this term patriotism. why patriotism matters. the thing is, i agree, but not that brand. patriotism means sustaining of democracy and fighting for basic values that everyone in our country should hold true. you cannot claim that you love the country when you hate half of the people in it. you can't claim that you love the country when the policies you are putting together are intentionally divisive. intentionally keeping people excluded from seeing how they are actually involved and engaged in this. so i think the strategy we've continued to see and why the danger of the extreme maga movement, it's not just that this is an ideology that is eroding at the basic fabric of democracy, the basic fabric of freedoms that i think for all of us, not only do we hold true but we'll fight for and defend. it is not getting at the core challenges people are actually facing. because it allows us to get caught up in the distractions. instead of focusing on, how do we make sure we have sustained job growth? and i can tell you right now, we are watching historic levels of unemployment. low levels of unemployment. in the state of maryland, five straight months of historically low unemployment. the fact we're talking about inflation, well, we've seen inflation at its lowest level since 2021. the united states has the lowest inflation rate of any of the g7 countries. infrastructure and building, we're having core assets, billions of dollars that are being put toward roads and bridges, that's getting people to work in terms of fixing it, and also giving people the answer to get to work. you can't have economic mobility if you don't have physical mobility. what is happening is, you're watching a campaign in a re-elect that's saying the momentum we're seeing and the partnership we are seeing with our federal government, it matters. that's what we want to have four more years of. >> the stats you laid out are true. those are facts. why is it when you look at a poll and people say, yeah, my life is pretty well, but it appears the administration isn't getting credit for what is being done. we're headed in the wrong direction, even with low unemployment and inflation. how do you square those things when you talk to people in your state? >> when i tell people in the state, and if you look at where people are in the state, people are excited that maryland is moving again. maryland is showing we can do big things again. when we talk about the offshore win, where i want maryland to be the capital of offshore wind in this country. you know, the same way we helped win world war ii with our seal, we'll do the same in baltimore county, same places, in how we're going to win offshore wind and it'll create thousands of jobs. but i can't do that if it were not for the partnership of the federal government. i could not do that if it weren't for the ira. when we're doing a round of the red line, east-west transit in baltimore. we've had people living in transportation deserts. i'm proud of it, and people are excited, but i couldn't do it if it weren't for having the biden administration who helps put together the infrastructure act. it's important that as we're talking about these different things that are happening, that we're excited about and people in our states are excited about those things, i want to be clear, without partnership from the federal government, partnership with lcal government, actually working together, these things could not be real. that's why i'm so excited to make sure we continue the partnership. with partnership, there can be progress. >> democratic governor of maryland, home of the first place orioles, wes moore, great to see you. >> great to see you, too. up next, former new jersey governor chris christie joins us lie. what does he make of the debate last night? do voters think he emerged as the best alternative to donald trump? he was telling truth last night. we'll see how it went over with the audience. "morning joe" coming right back. ♪inspiring music♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. when nature and science get together... pretty sweet things can happen. like our senokot laxative gummies. to relieve occasional constipation, senokot starts with the natural senna plant that science transforms into a yummy gummy! sweet! senokot laxative gummies. listen. >> hold on. >> i've had enough. i've had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like chat gpt stand up here, and the last person in a debate who said, what's a skinny guy with an odd last name doing up here was barack obama. i think we're dealing with the same amateur on the stage tonight. >> give me a hug just like you did to obama, and you'll help elect me just like you did to obama, too. give me the bear hug. >> the same type. >> oh, my god. that was annoying. former new jersey governor chris christie. entrepreneur vivek ramaswamy squaring off in last night's republican primary debate. the republican presidential candidate christi joins us from milwaukee. i want to ask about last night. i'm looking at the big picture, though, first. because we have donald trump putting out a statement saying he won the debate. i didn't see him on the stage. i guess he was doing an interview elsewhere. then we have his co-defendants' mug shots, where they're smiling, where rudy giuliani, it seems to be, is making fun of the situation. donald trump wants to make his surrender in fulton county kind of a primetime event. i mean, they appear to think this is funny. can you list the ways in which this is all so very not funny? >> they can make as much fun of all this stuff they want now, but spending seven years as the u.s. attorney in new jersey, mika, it is all fun and games until the jury is in the box. then it becomes a much, much different thing. you know, look, donald trump, what would you expect? you've known him a long time. of course, he'll put out a statement that says he won the debate last night. the end of it, he wasn't there because he is a coward. because he can't come and defend his failed record as president or his personal conduct, which has disgraced what's gone on in our country over the last number of years. you know, i wouldn't expect anything different from him. i don't -- i have the truth social app on my phone. i'm a better man for it. >> okay. how do you think you did in the debate last night? what did you think of the field without trump in it? >> well, look, i felt good about how we did last night. you know, i wanted to make sure that everybody, both in that arena and much more importantly, all of the people watching at home understand that i'm going to stand up and tell the truth about where our country needs to go and about how donald trump has failed us and would fail our party if he were ever made the nominee again. but also talk about important issues. you know, i guess wes must have turned in early last night. didn't hear me talking about education. i was talking about that last night on the stage. talking about my trip to ukraine and how important it was for us to stand against vladimir putin. and when vivek ramaswamy was just, you know, getting too out of hand, the moderators wouldn't try to control him, so i did. >> governor christie, good morning. you told truth seem to be the only one able to do it which is that donald trump's conduct around january 6th, around the 2020 election, whatever you think about these prosecutions of him now, was wrong, was unforgivable. you also did not raise your hand in this moment, you and asa hutchinson would you support him if he were convicted? you can see everyone else is raising their hand and then he joined in. why is it, not for you, but why is it so difficult for these other candidates to tell those very basic truths? not even talking about policy, but basic truths that you told about the constitution last night? >> i can only assume it's because they're auditioning for what they pray will be a future vice presidential nomination or a cabinet bid in a trump administration. the problem for them is going to be donald trump's never going to be president of the united states again, and it becomes more and more clear to me every day that folks around this country, especially independents and disaffected republicans are not going to rejoin the trump coalition based upon his conduct over the last, you know, three years since he left the presidency, and so i think these are all political, strategic decisions that these folks are making, and it's got to matter whether someone says they're willing to suspend the constitution that they took an oath to preserve, protect, and defend. that's just wrong. it's not a hard answer for me, and it's not a hard answer for them either, but they're playing a political game. >> governor christie, you were one of few candidates on stage who, you voiced support for ukraine and mentioned a recent trek there. that's a real divide with the primary electorate. how do you intend to make the case that continued united states support to ukraine is in the national interest? >> well, vladimir putin helped me again yesterday to make that case with the murder of prigozhin. now he's an awful person too, but we don't settle political scores through murder unless of course, you're vladimir putin, and this is the guy who donald trump calls brilliant and a genius. sorry. i disagree, and i do believe that we need to stand up for ukraine, and that that fight right now is a proxy war between the united states and china, and that it is the right thing to do to protect freedom-loving people who are being tortured and killed by a barbaric russian army, and it is the right thing to do to allow the ukrainians to be armed to fight this fight and send a very clear message to vladimir putin, but even more importantly, to president xi in china that the united states will not cut and run from its friends. >> governor christie, i have three quick questions for you. i'll give them to you all at once because you have amazing retentive powers. that i know. the first question is, do you believe that joseph r. biden was legitimately elected president of the united states in the fall of 2020? the second question is, do you believe as a former u.s. attorney that any of the candidates on that stage who said they would continue to support and vote for a convicted felon potentially as president of the united states, what's your reaction to that? and third, your reaction to how annoying were you and was vivek ramaswamy on that stage last night? >> all right. so as to question number one, of course, joe biden was and is the legitimately elected president of the united states from the 2020 campaign. that's an easy one to answer. it's so easy that even ron desantis can answer it now. so that means it's really easy. as to the second question, it makes me laugh when you have folks up there who say that they're for law and order, and we heard that a number of times last night, but you can't be for law and order for some people and not for everybody, and so that means the law applies to everyone. i heard mike pence say last night, i wish that he wouldn't have been charged, but no one's above the law. well, which one is it? you know, and so i get confused by folks -- the only thing that offends me more than folks who turn their back on law and order to how it applies to donald trump for political purposes are those who try to have it both ways for political purposes, and thirdly, i think i said it pretty clearly in the clip you showed that by about 15 minutes in, i had already had enough of being told that for somebody who like me, sacrificed seven years of my life being a united states attorney for new jersey, and then another eight years being governor of new jersey that i am bought and paid for by anybody, especially by a candidate like vivek who, you know, in his book that came out last year said donald trump's conduct on january 6th was reprehensible, plain and simple. now he says, i didn't say that. no, i'm not saying you said it. you wrote it, or whoever wrote your book for you wrote it, and secondly, you know, he now says he's the guy who will pardon donald trump and wants everyone else to commit to it, and i actually thought mike pence's answer on that was pretty good where he said, you know, i have used the pardon power, and so have i as governor of new jersey, and it should be used with mercy and reason, and there's no reason to show mercy on donald trump when he doesn't want to admit anything he did was wrong. >> you're right. vivek ramaswamy proposed a pre-emptive pardon. a lot of people think you had a good night last night. people think this is trump's race to lose. there was a poll out yesterday in new hampshire that has you up now in double digits in second place behind donald trump in the state of new hampshire. what changes the dynamic of a race that a lot of people frankly people have written off and there's an inevitability that donald trump is the nominee? sure, he might lose the general election, but he's going to be the nominee of the party. why do you think that's wrong, and if you do think it's wrong, which assume you do, what changes here? what changes this dynamic that with each new prosecution, each new indictment, each new thing in court, seems to go up among primary voters? >> look. the first thing is i make a gentle suggestion to all of you in the news media from someone who's been a practitioner in this business now for over 20 years. national polls and presidential races during the primary mean nothing. we don't have a national primary, and if you don't think those national polls will change on caucus day in iowa, you have never watched this process. if you don't believe they'll change again after first in the nation primary day in new hampshire, you've never watched or appreciated this process. so what will change is it's a campaign. last night was the starting gun for the campaign, and i think this coming week leading into labor day weekend, most normal americans will say, leave me alone. i'm enjoying the last week of summer with my family, and i don't need to hear from you people, and so we should keep quiet for most of this week, and then after labor day, it's going to get going, and, you know, willie, i looked at the new hampshire poll you just referenced. i have not been in this race three months, and i've gone from 0 to 14 in new hampshire. i am past ron desantis by five points. i am past vivek by three points, and i'm now within 20 of donald trump. okay. 20 ain't going to win you anything but nice parting gifts, but it's august. when people are asked polls nationally when they're held today, their answer should be, i would be shocked because it's not going to be held today. so i would not worry about the national polls. look at these state by state polls in iowa and new hampshire and south carolina and in nevada because the race will change remarkably when each of those states weigh in, and then we'll see where we stand. so i'm not the least bit discouraged, in fact, after not even three months in this race, i'm incredibly encouraged and last night i was happy to get on that stage, look into the camera, and tell the people the truth about our democracy, the truth about donald trump, and the truth in my view about joe biden and the fact that neither one of them are up to it. people say the country's so divided. there's one thing they're united on. 75% of the people in this country say they don't want the race to be trump versus biden, and so i think we should keep that in mind when we're evaluating all these polls. >> former new jersey governor and 2024 republican presidential candidate, chris christie, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. up early in milwaukee after a very late night. thank you. >> thank you for having me, mika. thanks to everybody else around the table. >> all right. take care. coming up, ukraine says its military carried out a special operation overnight in russian-occupied crimea. we'll have those new developments. plus, more on the top moments from last night's republican debate in milwaukee. gop white house hopefuls facing off on stage for the first time while donald trump prepares to turn himself in to authorities in georgia today at the fulton county jail. our third hour starts right now. ukraine is the first line of defense for us, and the problem that vivek doesn't understand is he wants to hand ukraine to russia. he wants to let china eat taiwan. he wants to go and stop funding israel. you don't do that to friends. what you do instead is you have the back of your friends. ukraine is a front line of defense. putin has said, if russia -- once russia takes ukraine, poland and the baltics are next. that's a world war. we're trying to prevent war. look at what putin did. he killed prigozhin. when i was at the u.n., the russian ambassador suddenly died. this guy is a murderer, and you are choosing a murderer over a pro-american country. >> first of all -- first of all -- >> mr. ramaswamy, you have 30 seconds. >> your future career on the boards of lockheed and -- boeing came off of it, but you have been pushing this lie all week, nikki. >> you want to go and defund israel. >> let me address that. i'm glad you brought that up. i'll address each of those right now. the false lies of a professional politician. there you have it. so the reality is -- >> you have no foreign policy experience and it shows. it shows. >> it's down. you know, hey, welcome to "morning joe." i'm joe. it's really great that you have chosen to be with us on this first of many shows ahead. that was some kind of debate last night. nikki haley had a couple of moments. she really did. there was another moment, willie, where she basically said, come on. let's stop lying to everybody. it's not joe biden that caused the deficit. it's not joe biden that caused the debt. it's donald trump, and you all went along with it and said nothing. so it was a fascinating debate. i've got to say, ramaswamy was going around and everybody is bought and paid for. he was going around the stage, and they're the one who's bought and paid for. he reminded me of tracy flick in that old -- that old movie about politics. >> reese witherspoon. "election"? >> as tracy flick, and he's just this little kid going around trying to say the right lines and do the right things. everything was so pre-packaged. everything -- there wasn't a conspiracy theory he didn't follow down there. there wasn't an insult he didn't launch. it was all -- oh, it was all so miserable, but it was a fascinating debate in other aspects. nikki haley and, you know, desantis kind of saying biden -- i know they both love to hear that, but desantis just kind of stayed in there. he didn't do anything great. anybody who wanted him to, like, save his campaign are going to be disappointed. anybody who wanted to see him collapse will be disappointed. he just kind of hung in there, and i think for me, the headlines are nikki haley had a couple of really good moments. vivek, his best insult to absolutely everybody. chris christie was thrown off his game a bit by vivek because they went back and forth. at one point, chris christie said he sounded like chatgpt, and -- but again, desantis kind of held his own. all in all, probably not much of a change except a lot of press for vivek and who knows? maybe some conspiracy theorists will support him coming out of this. >> yeah. if this was vivek's -- ramaswamy's night to introduce himself to the country, that was his goal last night. for people who said, who is this guy, he did that. he earned a lot of time. he was centerstage next to governor desantis, but also with that time, he said we should cut off aid to ukraine altogether. he said the climate change agenda was a hoax, and he also said he would issue a preliminary, a pre-emptive pardon of donald trump. we'll see donald trump turn himself into fulton county today. yes, he introduced himself, but that's what he did with it, but to your point, he was center stage. he's polling the highest among the people who were there. granted 40 points behind donald trump in the latest poll, but he was, joe. he wasn't really there. i mean, he, you know, he got off a few can lines at the top. >> yeah. >> it was interesting to see that the fire from the other candidates was trained not at all on ron desantis. it was all going at vivek ramaswamy which tells you what the rest of the field thinks about this race. >> yeah. >> well, along with joe, willie, and me, we have former aide to the george w. bush white house, elise jordan doing way too early duties for us. thank you. we have the president of the action national network and politics nation, reverend al sharpton, and charlie sykes is with us, and attorney and contributing columnist at "the washington post", george conway, is with us, and there's a lot of reasons where george is here today. former president trump is set to surrender to authorities at the fulton county jail tonight. trump will travel to georgia later today, and will reportedly wait until primetime tv hours to officially turn himself in. here's a look at his co-conspirators who have already been booked. we have rudy giuliani, kenneth chesebro. we've all got mug shots. it's quite something that this group, the so-called sbrer prize is beginning to turn itself in, joe, and, you know, some of of them in these mug shots, she did not seem to be taking the moment quite seriously. it is a very serious moment. >> well, they all understand as we look at these mug shots, they all understand it's a very serious moment, and george, let me -- let me go to you. i think you probably, like me, look at what rudy giuliani did, and a lot of people may be watching. look at what rudy giuliani did in new york city and along with, again, everybody else. whenever you credit giuliani for anything, and the turnaround of new york, people say, what about this person? i'll even throw david dinkins in there, but he was mayor with the extraordinary turnaround of new york city, and i have to say, one of the great accomplishments -- one of the great accomplishments for a city that i have seen in my lifetime. new york city from 1989 circa, 1990 to 1995, unrecognizable and of course, many people who were very moved by what he did on 9/11. there were a couple of days where george w. bush just didn't find his footing politically or notorically until he stood on that pile of rubble. for millions and millions of americans, he was america's mayor. i look at that mug shot, and listen. he deserves it. justice has to be served, but what a sad, sad fall for a man who didn't have to be there. >> no. it's absolutely stunning. i remember being a law clerk in new york for the federal appeals court there in 1987 and '88, and, you know, he was u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. so basically, you know, 10% or 20% of the briefs were, you know, had his name on it, and he was, you know, defending rico convictions, trying to get them affirmed and now he's charged with rico, and if you would have told me then, or if you would have told me at the end of 2001 that 20 or 30 years later, he would be a penniless almost friendless, although he did have that private jet -- i don't know where that came from -- a criminal defendant in a state racketeering case, i would have looked at you like you were insane, but that's where we are. it's stunning to see this fall, and it just keeps getting worse and it's hard to see. he can't even get a lawyer. might not even be able to pay a lawyer. i don't know where this goes for him other than it's going to keep going down. >> it's a fascinating split screen for the republican party. so convoluted. last night the candidates were asked on stage if they would still support the former president as the nominee if he's convicted in any of his ongoing legal battles. take a look. >> if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? please raise your hand if you would. [ cheers and applause ] so just to be clear, governor christie, you were late to the game. >> i'm doing this. i'm doing this, not this. whether or not you believe that the criminal charges are right or wrong, the conduct is beneath the office of president of the united states. [ cheers and applause ] and this is the great thing about this country. booing is allowed, but it doesn't change the truth. [ boos ] it doesn't change the truth. >> president trump was, i believe, the best president of the 21st century. it's a fact. and chris christie, honest to god, your claim that donald trump is motivated by vegeance and grievance would be a lot more credible if your entire campaign were not based upon vengeance and grievance against one man. >> you talk about how you want to stand up for the rule of law and law and order. >> yes. >> it can't be selective. in your book, you had much different things to say about donald trump than you're saying here tonight. >> that's not true. >> it is very true. i'm not going to bow to anyone when we have a president of the united states who disrespects the constitution. it's important to say that the president said -- donald trump said, it's okay to suspend the constitution. now the oath you take is to preserve, protect, and defend, not suspend. i will always stand up for our constitution regardless of the political pressure. >> when it comes to whether president trump should serve or not, i trust the american people. let them vote. let them decide, but what they will tell you is it is time for a new generational, conservative leader. we have to look at the fact that three-quarters of americans don't want a rematch between trump and biden, and we have to face the fact that trump is the most disliked politician in america. we can't win a general election that way. >> so charlie sykes, that was nikki haley criticizing donald trump, and criticized him for adding $8 trillion to the debt, but on this question of the legal matters in front of donald trump including the one today where he's going to turn himself in in fulton county, it was down in the left side of your screen, chris christie and asa hutchinson, the only two with clear-throated criticism of the president and of those mar-a-lago documents. you had desantis and others saying, we have to stop the weaponization of the justice department, suggesting joe biden was leading this prosecution of donald trump. what did you make of what you saw last night? >> well, first of all, that was an extraordinary moment when you saw most of the candidates raising their hands when they were asked directly, who you support donald trump for the presidency if he was convicted of felonies? you know, what a surreal moment that was. you know, i think there were a couple of surprises last night. number one, i don't think by the way that this was the debate that ron desantis wanted or that he needed. he felt like he was an afterthought by the end of the debate. yes, vivek came in very, very strong. he's very, very facile, but we saw this later on when nikki haley took him down. i thought nikki haley overperformed. she was impressive. she was the adult in the room. she was the adult in the room on spending, on abortion, on ukraine. i also think that mike pence also overperformed somewhat, but let's be honest here. they -- they were not appealing to the readers of the bullwork or viewers of "morning joe." it was vivek who knew exactly where all of the erogenous zones of maga world war, and he played on them. he was playing to that -- that ideological id. he was -- look. the reality is he's a shallow, shameless, facile demagogue which means he's probably going to get a bump in the polls -- in the republican polls. he may be in second place by the end of all of this, but i also thought it was extraordinary how little time they spent talking about the orange elephant not in the room. fox went out of the way to not talk about him during the first hour and only spent about 11 minutes on the fact he's about to do a perp walk today. it was very much a mixed bag. i understand that people were saying that vivek came in hot and stole the spotlight, but i also think you saw his vulnerabilities later on when nikki haley just absolutely eviscerated him. >> yeah, and rev, this section about donald trump was almost apologetic by the debate moderators. we're just going to talk about this for a few minutes and get back to the issues and they did at the top of the second hour. that is the question though. does any of this matter, you know? some people had good moments. they had bad moments. ron desantis kind of wasn't a factor last night. maybe that's important. vivek ramaswamy introduced himself. maybe that's important. donald trump is up by depending on your poll, 30, 35, 40 points over anyone on that stage, and i think he's probably feeling pretty good this morning about not showing up. didn't need to. >> trump probably feels good that he didn't show up. he didn't lose anything by not showing up, but my two takeaways were that when you saw the question asked that if donald trump was convicted would you support him, and you saw most of the hands go up, you saw the resigning of the republican party being the law and order party. i mean, how do you look at that and ever take them seriously as a law and order party when they said by their own hand-raising that we will excuse a convicted felon to be the president of the united states? you lose all credibility in that area, and it happens on the same day rudy giuliani's being booked and on the eve of the guy you said you would support for president, not if he was indicted, if he was convicted, was the question. i think, you know, i remember the democratic primaries and getting on that stage is different than anything i've ever done, and i watched to see how people could handle the big stage, and, you know, i'm not a baseball or football fan like joe and you, but i loved boxing, and vivek got his title shot last night, and he was good until he got punched. it's not enough to throw a good punch. you got to be able to take a punch, and nikki haley scored a tko on him last night in front of the whole world. if i was vivek, i would go back in the gym this morning and let the trainer hit me because he can't take a hit. desantis almost wasn't there. he should have been in florida with trump because both of them didn't show up last night in my opinion, and i think that surprisingly mike pence did well. >> yeah. >> i was surprised that he really came out of the ring unscathed, unscarred. i was surprised how tim scott underperformed. you almost forgot he was there. so i was watching it as somebody who has been in that ring, and i was impressed that mike pence did not get punched, and i was absolutely impressed that nikki haley seemed to have the -- she came in with a fight game, and she did it, but i think that vivek was good the first five rounds, but they were telling him, take him out the ring by the eighth round. >> yeah. waving that towel. waving that towel. so yeah. very interesting. you brought up tim scott. i had actually forgotten about tim for a second. we have been talking -- i have been talking at least about how good he seems to be on the campaign trail, good on the stump. good talking to people, but he was not good last night. i guess the story -- south carolina's story, and tim scott really underperformed last night, and nikki haley really overperformed expectations. that was a real surprise. i have to say though, mika, i'm so glad that rev talked about how the republican party has forfeited forever the idea that they were ever some law and order party or ever supported justice, or, you know, even the constitution. chris christie's getting booed when he brings up the unpleasant fact that donald trump said he wanted to terminate the constitution of the united states if that's what it took for him to get back into the white house, but those candidates raised their hands except for asa hutchinson and chris christie to say they would support a president convicted guilty of stealing nuclear secrets, stealing military war plans to invade iran, stealing military assessments on what the weakest parts of the united states military was, stealing a presidential election. >> yeah. >> and having everybody, not liberals, not progressives. having everybody around him saying not only did he try to steal a presidential election, he headed up a conspiracy to get fake electors and then called the georgia secretary of state saying, i need you to steal 11,000 something votes from me. the fact that they would raise their hand and say that they would support a presidential candidate who's convicted -- convicted of stealing nuclear secrets tells you once again so much more than you need to know about how low the republican party has fallen in 2023. it's sad, and it's pathetic, and i for one think we need a strong -- a strong republican party. this is not it. >> yeah. no, it's almost like the question was, would you forfeit the republican party for the cult of one personality? several raised their hand. there were so many moments last night that said a lot about where the party stands if you still call it a republican party. the democrats have very strong positions on guns, abortion, and democracy as it pertains to where the american people are. coming up after the break, we're going to see how the candidates fared on the issue of abortion and there was one moment specifically that we're going to show you. we'll be right back with full coverage on "morning joe." joe." let innovation refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. clink! dr. marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. emily used part of her refund to buy... i run a wax museum. let innovation refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund. stop waiting. go to innovationrefunds.com you really got the brows. my name is caron and i'm from brooklyn. i work for the city of new york as a police administrator. i oversee approximately 20 people and my memory just has to be sharp. i always hear people say, you know, when you get older, you know, people lose memory. i didn't want to be that person. i decided to give prevagen a try. my memory became much sharper. i remembered more! i've been taking prevagen for four years now. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. 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it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only $30 bucks a line per month. that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. all on the most reliable 5g network nationwide. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. switch today at xfinitymobile.com. welcome back to "morning joe." as we continue our discussion of last night's republican presidential debate in milwaukee, another notable moment came when the moderators asked the candidates if mike pence did the right thing by certifying the 2020 presidential election. >> absolutely, he did the right thing, number one. number two -- [ applause ] -- we should be asking ourselves a bigger question about the weaponization of the department of justice. the first thing i'll do is fire merrick garland. the second thing i'll do is fire christopher wray. >> mike pence stood for the constitution, and he deserves not grudging credit. he deserves our thanks as americans for putting his oath of office and the constitution of the united states before personal political and unfair pressure. >> i do think that vice president pence did the right thing, and i do think that we need to give him credit for that. >> i've answered this before. >> so yes. >> why are we -- mike did his duty. i got no beef with him, but here's the thing. is this what we're going to be focusing on? >> i'm relieved. >> the rehashing of this? the democrats would love that. >> the president asked me in his request that i reject or return votes unilaterally, power that no vice president in american history had ever exercised or taken. he asked me to put him over the constitution, and i chose the constitution. >> so charlie, we see in some cases there, a grudging affirmation of what mike pence did. ron desantis notably said, yeah, yeah, he did the right thing, but, and even tim scott said, yes, but. what's really important here as we talk about donald trump and all these legal problems is the justice department has been weaponized, a suggestion that somehow joe biden is ordering all of these investigations into donald trump. >> right. >> which of course, is not how any of this works at all, but it may be offensive. a lot of what we heard last night, to a lot of people watching this show tonight, but it's the fact what the base wants to hear and that's who these candidates are speaking to. >> that's no question. that's what the base wants to hear. you can almost think of this as two debates, two primaries. you have the maga primary which clearly i think vivek won, and then you had the, you know, the donor/normy debate, and i think that nikki haley really scored some points there. i think she's going to get another look from a lot of the folks looking for an alternative, but i have to say that that may have been -- that may have been chris christie's finest moment standing next to mike pence and devoting his time to defending what the vice president did very clearly in a very articulate way. mike pence, not shying away from the decision he made on january 6th, but we should be under no illusions that people like vivek and ron desantis were appealing to the majority of republican primary voters, and by the way, you know, that clip also -- i just, you know, it kind of captures just the awkwardness of ron desantis who spends so much of the debate sort of shouting and, you know, just the man does not seem comfortable in his own skin, and can't quite figure out how do you run against donald trump without antagonizing the majority of republicans who don't want to talk about january 6th? who don't want to, you know, confront the fact that the former president of the united states might be a convicted felon by, you know, november? so there was -- there were little outbreaks of clarity and principle there, and i think you saw that. coming up, last month antony blinken said this about the leader of that short-lived revolt in russia. >> if i were mr. prigozhin, i would remain very concerned. nato has an open door policy. russia has an open windows policy. he needs to be very focused on that. >> now prigozhin was apparently killed in a plane crash. former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul weighs in on that straight ahead on "morning joe." t straight ahead on "morning joe." 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you better kill the king. he'll be isolated from the 35,000 fighters that have protected him. he's like a snake whose head has been cut off from its body. i don't think he's last 60, 90 days frankly because putin at his dark heart is a never forgive, never forget kind of person. he'll do everything he can to wreak vegeance on prigozhin. >> james stavridis back in june predicting the demise of prigozhin, and within months, and it appears the admiral was correct as russian state media is reporting that a private passenger plane en route from moscow to st. petersburg yesterday had prigozhin on board when it crashed. this video uploaded to social media has been independently geo-located by nbc news. it shows a plane falling to the ground in the same area where prigozhin's plane reportedly crashed. nbc has not independently verified prigozhin was on this plane. earlier this summer, the wagner group with prigozhin at the helm staged an unsuccessful uprising against the russian government, and joe, i still question -- i mean, was he on that plane? i just -- but knowing this man, having read about him, i guess that that might be a question? >> well, i just -- yeah. julia who knows a little bit about russia, the way russians think, and the way russians act, i tweeted this line from her newsletter about this. she said, prigozhin it seems is dead. the it seems of course, does an awful lot there because -- >> yes, it does. >> i agree with you. i mean, you just never know. >> yeah. >> he's -- he's dead if that serves vladimir putin's purposes. if having him run around africa, killing pro-democracy forces undercover serves his purposes, then that's the case too, but at least, jordan, there's no doubt that he at least wants his enemies -- his rivals in russia to certainly think at least that prigozhin is dead, and we're not saying he's not. we're just saying we can't trust anything russian state media says right now. so it's hard to confirm this for sure. >> well, and sense the day that prigozhin attempted this coup, i just assumed, and you heard from so many russia analysts who know far more that i do, that prigozhin was dead man walking, and what surprised me was that putin actually gave him two months, and i wonder what was said in the interim that predicated prigozhin to make him feel that he had some modicum of safety because he was still able to travel around. he could have gone into exile. he had different paths that he could have chosen to have ensured his security, but he felt like staying in the game, and look at what happened. >> yeah. willie, too, as we now -- i think we have the admiral online now, and i'll let you go to him, but i don't want to say i was suspicious about this, but when vladimir putin's chef was -- kept attacking vladimir putin's military leaders, i just thought, this is an inside game. putin doesn't want to attack the powers that be in moscow by himself. so this is an inside game. he's having his chef attack this guy, and then -- again, you never know. you never know what's going on. just like you didn't know what was going on in the kremlin with the soviet union, criminologists who paid a lot of money in think tanks to figure that out. we don't know what happened here. maybe it is what it looks like, and that plane got blown out of the sky. regardless, vladimir putin can't have that guy running around as the admiral predicted, people thinking that he could get away with staging a coup against putin. >> you are not alone in that suspicion. when the wagner group was marching toward moscow, abruptly stopped and within a couple of hours, there was a deal struck with another nation end to it. there were some suspicions around experts -- among experts on russia. that happened a little too quickly. admiral stavridis is with us now, and joining us, you called this many times. you said, you know, not long for this world likely is prigozhin. what is your suspicion or your -- what you have heard from your sources around the world about what may have happened yesterday? >> yeah. the only thing here is why did it take so long? when i predicted with our colleague chuck todd on "meet the press," that hey, it's going to be 30, 60, 90 days, and i actually thought it would be sooner than that, but i was giving myself a little bit of time. in the end, it reads like a novel, and here's the point that really struck me and really chills me. the public nature of this. this was essentially a public execution, you know. >> yep. >> who is randomly filming a private jet flying between moscow and st. petersburg? they knew roughly when the bomb was going to go off would be my guess. we have very dramatic footage. you get to kind of imagine the last moments of yevgeny prigozhin, and presumably surrounded by his closest associates, friends, maybe his family. it's an awful way to die, so publicly, and then be flashed across the screens of the world. so no real surprise here. it is a marker of how lethal and how deadly and how unscrupulous vladimir putin is, not that we needed any reminder of that. >> mm-hmm. >> admiral, you point out how gory and staged almost for television to remind and show other enemies of putin what he does when he comes for you. do you think that putin feels the need in the aftermath of this coup to dramatically reassert that he is still in power? >> sure. go back and read the prints when you go for the king, you better kill the king, and that's what prigozhin in the end failed to do, and putin needed -- your point is a good one, elise. he needed to demonstrate, and pretty quickly as it turns out, who's really running the joint, and i think that even -- >> yeah. >> -- over the last couple of days, you see the bricks are together. brazil, russia, india, south africa, in south africa, having a conference. so putin is playing to that international audience, and he's also playing to his domestic audience. >> admiral, given the description you gave of the video and sort of giving everybody a front row seat to this execution, i mean, isn't prigozhin a fairly wily, smart character? i just wonder why he would get on that plane. why he wouldn't have five private planes lined up, and get on the one -- i don't know. it doesn't make sense to me that that man knowing his reality would get on a plane. >> i agree. what i'll add to your thought, mika, is never underestimate the human capacity to decide who got past that one, you know, how many times in all of our lives do we sort of say, wait. i'm going to get by this one, and oh by the way, we can see plenty of examples on the national stage of people who think they're going to get away with something. i think prigozhin thought he had gotten through this, and then final thought here, i think it is also a measure of putin, how clever he is, his ability to manipulate others, his ability to allow people to think, it's okay. i am going to forgive you. i'm the big one here. i'm the adult in the room. he lets you go down that mental path until your airplane falls out of the sky. coming up, one of our next guests wants americans to learn to disagree better. the republican governor of utah, spencer cox joins our conversation with his new initiative when "morning joe" comes right back. hen "morning j comes right back ♪♪ with fastsigns, create striking custom visuals that inspire pride district-wide. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement. vo: they love visiting farms for photo ops. the republicans. throw on blue jeans, stand next to a tractor. but right now, our farms are hurting. from droughts in wisconsin, to floods in iowa, to extreme heat just about everywhere. climate change is crushing our farmers. and they won't do a damn thing about it because that would mean taking on the oil industry. yeah, they'll stand up for photo ops, but will they ever stand up to big oil? what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off 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possibilities. whenever you look at the underlying challenge of america though, no one likes to see an america with smash and grab in our inner cities. as president of the united states, that will stop. it starts at the top with a respect for our justice system that a former president who's under indictment has undermined, by attacking judges, by attacking prosecutors, by attacking the system, and saying he's agreed, and we have to have respect for our justice suspect, and it starts at the top with the president of the united states. coming up, we've got a great political panel lined up for our fourth hour. jen saw kentucky, s symone sanders-townsend, and chris matthews. much more on trump's impending surrender when "morning joe" comes right back. rrender when "" comes right back how can you sleep on such a firm setting? gab, mine is almost the same as yours. almost is just another word for not as good as mine. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire ♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." national and local leaders scramble to make crucial life-and-death decisions about how to respond to covid. the governor of maine says letters from her constituents helped keep her grounded and connected to those she served. a young mom began writing weekly letters to governor janet mills, sharing her own personal stories. governor mills kept the letters along with a journal of her own experiences and struggles personally and politically. veteran reporter shannon mullen met with the governor and learned about the journals and weaved them into a book called "in other words, leadership," how both women braved the first pandemic year. the author and governor both join us now. thank you so much for being with us. shannon, how did you learn about the letters, the diary, and what made you think about writing this book? >> i learned about the letters when i met the governor socially. she had an emotional reaction to having received the final letter, so i thought i need to see what's in those letters. there were dozens of them and they were full of civility and grace and wisdom and all the things i thought had either been drowned out of our national discourse or weren't loud enough. i asked her if she had written back, and she had about four times. that wasn't enough for a book, so i wanted to know if she kept a journal, and she had since she was 5. she let me use some excerpts from her journal during that time, and i wove them together into a book. that's how we got here. i would say the book has begun to make its way out into the world. >> you know, you said a phrase that i absolutely love, like the governor was doing the best she could. there's this concept in dbt where we're supposed to give other people the benefit of the doubt and when we get angry or frustrated with them, we go, all right, they're doing the best they can. governor, talk about that when you're facing a pandemic that we hadn't seen in a century. i could talk about how leaders, whether it's facing war or peace decisions, whether they're facing decisions on pandemics or national security. they don't have all the information. you just make the best decisions you can make at the time. >> right. there was no playbook for this pandemic, no playbook for any governor, any public official to deal with a pandemic. so what we tried to do was follow the science. the best advice i got right at the beginning of this pandemic was tell the people the truth, whether good news, bad news or i don't know news. tell them what you know, and they will listen to you. after 220 news briefings, press conferences, 190-something-plus executive orders and many, many proclamations and what not, after all of that, maine having the oldest population in the country, nevertheless had one of the lowest death rates from covid and one of the highest vaccination rates as well. i think those two facts are intertwined. we had one of the best economic recoveries and health care outcomes of all the states next to hawaii. hawaii just had to close their airport. we were not as isolated as they, but we had a decently good outcome from the pandemic. listening to the people and talking to the people every day and telling them the truth in the course of that pandemic. >> governor, you just said something so important. you tell them what you knew and what you didn't know. the governors that did poorly were the ones that tried to act like they knew everything right off the bat. either they were anti-mask, pro-mask, anti-vaccine. but it was used for politics. i look at your example and the example of ned lamont, people who saw their approval ratings go up because you and ned never claimed to know things you didn't know. you said we're going to get through this together. talk about how important it is sometimes for politicians to say "i don't know." >> right. i was in frequent communication with my republican governors, charlie baker, ned lamont in a democrat and phil scott in vermont and chris sununu in new hampshire. the first year of the pandemic we were basically on our own. we were told, you governors are in charge of this, do what you can basically, and the buck was passed. it was important to listen to people and get their letters of concern and hear from people and what was going on in their daily lives. i found that very grounding. she wrote me constantly about home schooling her two young children, taking care of a disruptive dog, birthing a goat kid in the spring and how she was handling the family finances and small business that was run by her and her husband. that was important for me to hear. it was important to hear from the mouths of children like a young savannah in bangor, who wrote, "governor mills, i hope this covid thing doesn't isolate our hearts from one another." that was so important. i wrote back and said "savannah, we're not going to let this isolate our hearts from one another because we are family." it was important to communicate with people at all levels. >> also very important, if i could add, this is a governor who made a marathon of politically unpopular decisions and was reelected by a historic margin. that's a message worth amplifying. to say nothing of how important it is to tell stories of the difference an individual person can make and how much individual agency we all have in the face of uncertainty. >> the importance of letter writing, period. we've lost the art of letter writing, and these were all handwritten letters. >> all the unpopular decisions the governor made at the time that ended up showing great foresight and then she wins a big reelection, give us the backdrop about maine, a state that mika and i may know a thing or two about, may spend a day or two in that wonderful state. it's politically a pretty divided state. this is not the upper west side. in fact, a lot of our friends that we talk about on the show are mainers who are still all in for donald trump. so we're not talking about this idealogical bubble. there are people that are still all in for donald trump. there are people that are still solidly in the middle, and there are people on the left. all of this happened amid a pretty contentious political backdrop, didn't it? >> well, i would say yes. i wouldn't necessarily call maine divided. i'm more interested in the fact that this is a state with a long tradition of producing moderate politicians with an outsized influence in national politics. i would say this is one of them. >> olympia snow and other moderate and republican leaders. i didn't intend to right a book. she came along after the pandemic ended and said, this makes a book. i said, really? okay. she did a great job researching all the press conferences and all the press clippings. >> weekly radio addresses. >> nobody runs for governor thinking one day i'll shut down the state or saying someday i'll ban parades, weddings, funerals, fourth of july picnics, close bars. nobody wants to do that. and yet republican and democratic governors did it, and those who did it, frankly, were more successful in saving the lives of their people. >> so glad that you all have come together to write this book and tell this incredible story. "in other words, leadership, how a young mother's weekly letters to a governor helped both women brave the first pandemic year." governor janet mills and author shannon mullen, thank you very much. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you for having us. we have crossed into the top of our fourth hour, joe, as tonight former president trump is set to surrender to authorities at the fulton county jail in atlanta. he will travel to georgia later today, reportedly will wait until prime time television hours to officially turn himself in. last night eight other republican candidates took to the debate stage in milwaukee, sparring over abortion, the economy, ukraine, the january 6th capitol attack and much more. nbc news senior correspondent garrett haake has details. >> reporter: overnight, fireworks on center stage at the first republican debate. [indiscernible] >> reporter: frontrunner donald trump refusing to attend citing his lead in the polls, the night revolved around florida governor ron desantis -- >> we will send joe biden back to his basement and reverse the decline of this country. >> reporter: and entrepreneur vivek ramaswamy. >> the only war i will declare as u.s. president will be the war of the federal administrative state. >> reporter: trading barbs with nearly every other candidate who pointed out his lack of experience. >> now is not the time for on the job training. >> now i with can have a real discussion. >> reporter: and his combative style. >> i'm the only person on the stage who isn't bought and paid for. >> whoa, whoa, whoa. >> i've had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like chatgpt standing up here. >> reporter: some of the night's most substantive discussion on the issue of abortion and whether candidates would support a federal ban. >> i promise you as president of the united states the american people will have a champion for life in the oval office. >> don't make women feel like they have to decide on this issue when you know we don't have 60 senate votes. >> reporter: despite his glaring absence, mr. trump's presence still felt. asked if they'd support him as the gop nominee even if he were convicted, eventually six candidates saying yes as the crowd reacted. though some still seized on his legal and political baggage. >> the conduct is beneath the office of president of the united states. >> reporter: former vice president mike pence using the debate to once again defend his actions on january 6th. >> he asked me to put him over the constitution. i chose the constitution. >> would you have approached that question any differently on the stage tonight if donald trump had been on it with you? >> i don't believe i would. i think it was a missed opportunity for him not to be there. my bet is he might be at the next one. >> garrett haake reporting there. joe, we had eight people on the stage last night, minus donald trump, who was apparently watching given the fact he was up into the wee hours of the night tweeting or whatever truth socialing his support for vivek ramaswamy, having watched that. so many extraordinary moments already, particularly the one where the candidates were asked if donald trump is convicted of the crimes of which he's accused, would you still vote for him? some raised their hands quick l. others looked down the line to see what the temperature was. only chris christie and asa hutchinson did not raise their hands, in other words, excusing the actions and the alleged crimes of donald trump. >> well, that was a defining moment when you had most of the republicans up on the stage, 6 of the 8 republicans up on the stage saying they would support a presidential candidate found guilty by a jury of his peers of stealing american nuclear secrets. let's say that again. 6 out of 8 republican candidates said they would support a politician that was convicted by a jury of his own peers of stealing american nuclear secrets. i think that probably says all you need to know about the republican party, about the republican base, about the republican base that booed chris christie when he talked about donald trump saying that he would terminate the constitution of the united states. it was crazy. there were other side issues here. vivek ramaswamy insulting everybody, accusing anybody who got in front of him of being owned by special interests. again, it's such a con. somebody that was in the room last night, i asked how everybody did. he said vivek ramaswamy is going to go up in the polls after this, no doubt. he, of course, had canned answers, was a con man, but they're going to love him for what he did. i thought nikki haley did well. i thought vivek ramaswamy attacked other people for having memorized lines and chris christie nailed it. he sounded like the chatgpt candidate, because everything was preprogrammed. everything was canned, every response. you know, if you had said what would a candidate running in the republican nomination for president say to this question, it's everything perfectly canned. ron desantis was flat. i don't think he hurt himself but didn't help himself either. he just doesn't have the game. he's just, like the rev said, you know, when you get on this level, it's like nothing you've ever been at before. nothing prepares you for it. none of us can imagine what it's like unless we actually have been out there. you know, ron desantis doesn't look ready to take on the heavyweights. >> not very nimble reacting. he could only plow forward with the lines. interesting to watch, though, the fire of the challengers was not on ron desantis at all. i mean, for now, he's in second place behind donald trump. they were all going at vivek ramaswamy. >> chris, let's start with you and your take-aways of what you saw last night. >> first, i think this is a little bit revolutionary. i would get rid of the studio audience. it's a joke. there was a bunch of peanut galleries out there. each one was ready to cheer whatever their candidate said. cnn made this mistake when they had trump on. don't bring a bunch of republicans and just let them yell and yell and yell. maybe you're going to get a reading on the republican party. clearly they don't like inflation or illegal immigration. i thought nikki haley was the star. you could see her training at the united nations. she's very capable to stand up and make a dramatic statement and control the room. i think she did that when she brought down the confederate flag in south carolina. she led the way. she was a leader last night. i thought chris christie is a reagan republican. he had that feel for that era. he's still good at it and he's credible. i thought mike pence was credible, except when he voted for electing a convicted felon, which i think made all of them look ridiculous. i tried to watch it the way i watch all debates. who do i like and trust? i trusted nikki haley. i trusted chris christie. an i liked mike pence with the exception of voting for a convicted felon. i understand why ron desantis can't do it. the guy can't do wholesale in politics and he can't do retail. he was angry about the most basic questions about trump's behavior as president of the united states. he couldn't answer it because he's still going for vice president, as six of them clearly are. they voted to protect trump because they want to be considered as vice presidents. that's what the game is about for a lot of them. >> jen, it was extraordinary. especially you have donald trump today reporting to jail to potentially get a mugshot in fulton county. if he's convicted of all this very serious stuff, taking nuclear secrets to your beach house -- >> overturning an election. >> a coup against the government. they all said, well, yeah, i guess we'd vote for him anyway. >> it felt a little bit like a domino effect, where they all were looking around and thinking, oh, i guess i should raise my hand. that was extremely awkward. they were also asked if they supported the actions of mike pence. here's what i cannot square the circle on. how can you say you would support a guy convicted of crimes, including potentially the overturning of the election and actions that happened on january 6th which involved the calling for a mob calling for the hanging of your vice president, and then also say, but mike pence is a standup guy who did the right thing? they're trying to have it both ways. obviously this is not a moment in courage, but that moment will be the moment from the debate that we remember, is the hand raising. >> this is a story of donald trump owning the republican party, taking over the republican party, destroying the republican party, leading the republican party to lose every election from 2017 until now. the loyalty goes one way. you know, 6 of 8 of these people made fools of themselves saying they would vote for a person who stole nuclear secrets if he got convicted of stealing nuclear secrets or trying to overturn an election. but that loyalty doesn't go the other way. donald trump said i'm not signing a loyalty pledge. again, it's one way. i don't understand their weakness still. >> the question that voters should be asking themselves after watching that debate last night -- and there will be other debates -- is did they see a leader on the stage? did they see a president? leaders lead. they don't always follow or wait to see what other people feel about their position before they stake one out. when it comes to donald trump, one of the most telling exchanges for me last night when discussing the former president was from chris christie where he said, look, we cannot talk about -- this was after ron desantis said we should really be talking about the issues, i thought you said we were going to talk about education, ukraine and all these other things. chris christie jumps in and says, look, we cannot get to all of these other issues unless we dispense with the argument that this person donald trump who is facing conviction, if he should still be allowed to run, we have to address this. i thought that was very important. i will say there was a lot of policy conversation last night. i have never seen folks trip over themselves more to talk about anything other than the former president to the point where even the moderators are turning around speaking to the crowd saying, hey, we're just trying to get through this part. but the abortion exchange, i thought, was very telling and important. that coupled with climate change is why these republican candidates are going to be in trouble with young voters. >> that's a great point. we're going to play that abortion moment in just a second. you worked on mitt romney's presidential campaign, won the primary and you've been through some of these debates. anything surprise you about what you saw last night? and does any of it matter when you look at national polls who have the guy who wasn't there up by 30 or 40 points? >> what was most surprising, i thought, was that they didn't come after ron desantis harder. here's a guy sitting in the spot that i think a lot of those eight on the stage would have liked to have been in from a polling and donor perspective. they didn't come after him. he was basically allowed to proceed kind of unimpeded, in my view. ron desantis has to consider that a win, the fact that he is still able to garner support from the donors and the establishment republicans who have lined up behind his campaign by and large. now, whether this impacts the race more broadly, i don't think so. you're always looking for a moment in these debates. i've been involved in preparing for like 30 of these things. you're always thinking, what is going to be my moment? i'm not sure we saw that last night. i think it speaks to the state of the race. you have a prohibitive frontrunner who is 30 or 40 points ahead. he wasn't even there last night, yet he dominated the conversation. the reason we saw the debate we saw last night is it's a reflection of where the republican primary electorate is and the republican primary is at. that is that donald trump needs to be considered the likely nominee. i don't think anything last night changed that, which i think for people on the stage was disappointing probably. >> here is the exchange we were talking about a second ago between nikki haley and mike pence on the possibility of a federal abortion ban. >> when it comes to a federal ban, let's be honest with the american people and say it will take 60 senate votes, it will take a majority of the house. so in order to do that, let's find consensus. >> you're my friend, but consensus is the opposite of leadership. when the supreme court returned this question to the american people, they didn't just send it to the states only. it's not a states-only issue. it's a moral issue. it's going to take unapologetic leadership, leadership that stands on principle and expresses compassion for women in crisis, pregnancies. i'll do that as president of the united states. >> he called my name, so i get to respond. first of all, i will say it is in the hands of the people, and that's where it should be. when you talk about a federal ban, be honest with the american people. >> i am being honest. >> we have had 45 pro life senators in over 100 years. no republican president can ban abortions any more than a democrat abortion can ban all those state laws. don't make women feel like they have to decide this issue when you know we don't have 60 senate votes in the house. >> i've got to say nikki haley tells the truth about republicans and debt and deficits and huge spending. told the truth here too. mike pence just said something that's bizarre. consensus is the opposite of leadership. said nobody that knows anything about washington, d.c. you get nothing done without 50 votes. sometimes without 60 votes. the great ones understand consensus. reagan and ike forged consensus. democrats lbj, fdr, bill clinton in the '90s. let's talk for a second, chris, because you were so plugged in with pennsylvania, with the suburbs of philly and also with those catholic voters who have very strong feelings about abortion one way or the other. when republicans start talking about a 15-week ban and they start talking about a 15-week ban with exceptions, a lot of people watching here are not going to want to hear this, but that's where the plurality of americans are. i'm getting to a point here. that's where countries like france are. our european allies have a 15, 16, 17-week ban. let abortion go into the second trimester and then they have exceptions there. when nikki haley said something i haven't heard anybody in american politics say that i've been thinking for quite some time, talking about the possibility of consensus on abortion, it may sound crazy to people that don't know the numbers, but if you see where america is, you take the 15-week limit that, again, goes into the second trimester, you look at where roe is, which is up to viability, 22, 23, probably 24 or 25 weeks. somewhere in there one day just maybe consensus that the american of americans support. i'm curious of your thoughts, because that's something republicans and democrats don't want to talk about. but that's just a reality that actually nikki haley talked about last night. >> you're right about the two parties taking extreme positions on this. states like new york and perhaps california are willing to basically say no limit, no restrictions, no time limit, nothing like the european model of 17 weeks, which is perhaps, as you put it, probably is a consensus thinking. in pennsylvania, looking into 2024, it looks like the democrats are counting on chester county, delaware county, montgomery county, bucks county and philadelphia, of course, to be pro choice. they're going to get a big vote out of that. and they're going to use that to buffer themselves against what looks to be an increasing vote for trump if trump's the nominee in western pennsylvania. that's northeastern pennsylvania as well, that whole alabama part of pennsylvania between pittsburgh and philadelphia. so they're going to use that issue. even joe biden is going to use it in that extremist position, which is basically for or against abortion. you're right, the consensus thinking is no late term, because people don't like the idea of it. it's just not going to be popular with people in common sense terms. but i think both sides are totally polarized right now. the democrats are going to sound like new york and republicans are going to sound like the south. it's going to be very difficult to find consensus. but in a real world, they would meet and negotiate some kind of position that appeals to the morality and the political sense of the american people. >> in another illustration of how this issue of abortion has tied republicans in knots and hurt them politically, senator tim scott, despite commending the supreme court last year for what he called returning the power back to the states where it belongs, took a different tack last night, effectively arguing against federalism, claiming blue states should not have the authority to decide their own abortion laws. >> we cannot let states like california, new york and illinois have abortions on demand up until the day of birth. that is immoral, it is unethical, it is wrong. we can't leave it to illinois, minnesota. we must solve that issue with a 15-week limit at a minimum. >> the case forever against roe, jen, has been returned to the states, let the states decide. senator scott took it a step further that, no, actually the federal government should decide for every state what happens on abortion. >> let's start with what the state should decide, because that is an answer a number of republican candidates are giving because they know abortion is problematic for them. that is a copout. then you say a state should decide, you're leaving half of the country and the women who live in those states without any protections. it is a copout. what tim scott said is crazy. i mean, he has a very compelling personal story. i didn't think he was particularly memorable in the debate, but he's suggesting if you're in a blue state and you're deciding, as nikki haley said, what your laws should be, that that shouldn't count because you're a blue state and you're not allowed to make decisions about your own policies. that's not how it works with federalism, doesn't even make sense. what he's trying to do on the politics is appeal to evangelicals in iowa, because he's had a little bit of movement. he wants to be the pro life candidate who's got more zest than mike pence. it's pretty transparent what he's trying to do there politically. >> obviously the issue of abortion was devastating to republicans in the midterms last year. they worry it will be devastating to them again next year. didn't help themselves much last night. >> no, not at all. i think nikki haley is somebody that i think folks should watch out for, because if we parse down what she said, she gave three different answers. at one point they asked her about the decision that the supreme court justices in south carolina made yesterday, where they overrode their previous decision on abortion. she basically said that justices should be making those decisions for people, then again went to this point about consensus, then separately said there doesn't need to be a federal ban on abortion. i think it's really important here that candidates find their lane on this and give an answer. tim scott got an answer. it is confusing, because this isn't what he said a couple weeks ago. this is what i will say about abortion and voters when we look towards the general election. the democrats have very effectively framed this whole debate now about freedom. we are no longer talking about a couple weeks here, a couple weeks here. this is about freedom. the democrats have put this in a frame about women making decisions with their families and doctors. on the other side, you have republican elected officials who aren't willing to say if they think a seventh grader should have a baby a rapist. that is where this debate is. if folks don't understand that, they're not going to see any return. >> i mean, the problem for republicans, actually, is that some republicans have said a seventh grader should be forced to have an abortion by her rapist. look to michigan. look to all of the extreme things republicans have said since dobbs was overturned. it is remarkable how much they have misplayed this, how extreme they have been in wisconsin, embracing an 1848 total abortion ban and losing a supreme court race because of that. a candidate manysaying a 14-year-old girl raped is a perfect reason why we shouldn't allow her to terminate her pregnancy. talk about how republicans' overreaching and radicalism on this issue has changed abortion. it used to be about life. there was always a great balance between life, unborn life and the liberty of women. now, because of the radicalism, it's about liberty. it's about freedom. that's what's taken center stage in this debate. and republicans have been routed nonstop since dobbs. going into 2024, what is the best play for a republican who needs to understand that even people who call themselves pro life their entire life have now changed after dobbs? >> i thought nikki haley gave the best answer from a general election perspective on this issue. i think what she's trying to do is reframe the debate and say what are areas on which we might agree, which led to the retort from former vice president pence on compromise not equaling leadership. i think nikki haley did set out a marker to say what would be a position that in a general election would not be completely offensive to independents particularly in places like pennsylvania and wisconsin where republicans know they have to be competitive to win. the challenge with these primary debates that you saw vividly last night is you've got eight people who agree on 95% of stuff. all of those eight are at least nominally pro-life. the question is how do you draw distinctions? primaries are about drawing distinctions on really narrow turf. when you come to an issue like abortion or spending or fiscal policy where nikki haley tried to attack what the trump administration did. the challenge with debates like this is they do tend to drive extremes. you've got to say how do i stand out on this? so you end up taking positions that for a general election campaign are going to prove to be highly problematic. >> what nikki haley did actually would help her in a general election. she told the truth about how reckless donald trump was with spending and the abortion issue and this pie-in-the-sky view of republicans that they're going to get 60 votes for an extreme abortion ban. it's just not going to happen. fascinating. let me ask you, chris matthews, about donald trump being indicted today for the fourth time. i was talking to george conway. you know, the show just keeps going on and on. george and i both concluded we don't see how donald trump convicted and in jail. you look at the 90-something charges. are we going to look like some banana republic where a strong man is going to be running for president from jail and possibly getting elected? >> you know, if he is the nominee of the republican party, your former party, the republican party of donald trump, he will say that he won. just get that in your head right now. he will say he won the 2024 election no matter what happens, because that's how his ego creates the idea. that's who he is. he's never going to give an honest answer. so a felon they're going to vote for to become president of the united states with 91 counts against him and going to jail probably, and they're going to put him in the white house so he can pardon himself. and they're the law and order party. figure it out. no more fiscal responsibility, no more free trade, no more deregulation, none of the things republicans believe, no more limited government, because he's promising hell on earth if he gets back in there. every single thing the republican party stood for over the years, he rejects. every moral concern, whether it's "access hollywood" or this latest thing of his, it's unbelievable what he's been able to say, the rape conviction. every one of these cases, he breaks all the rules, all the personal behavior concerns and he's still their hero. that's what the maga people are about. if vivek ramaswamy becomes the new desantis, which is apparently what trump's up to, because he's got somebody who will say he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, so people say we've got to vote for the sliced bread. maybe vivek ramaswamy is going to go around the country getting people cheering for donald trump. it's unbelievable. he's not running against donald trump. he's running for veep or something. it's incredible. it's beyond anything i've ever seen. >> vivek ramaswamy last night floated the idea of a preemptive pardon for donald trump, saying he'd just clean the slate of his crimes. nikki haley over on cbs news said i've made it clear if trump is convicted, i will pardon him, because i think it's important the country move on. thank you all very much. coming up on "morning joe," signs of a new direction in ukraine's counteroffensive as president zelenskyy vows to end russia's occupation of crimea. plus, the wagner mercenary boss who led a short-lived rebellion in russia is listed among those killed in a private plane crash north of moscow. his apparent death is raising questions about whether vice president played a role. former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul joins us next. o a michael mcfaul joins us next ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. 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just want to be able to cut the damage. we tried dove instead. so, still need that trim? oh my gosh! i am actually shocked i don't need a haircut. don't trim daily damage. stop it with dove. this morning, ukraine says its forces launched a special operation overnight into russian-occupied territory in crimea. this video provided by the country's intel agency appears to show troops on a boat approaching land. ukraine says those troops got out of the boat on the western tip of crimea, where video shows them setting up a ukrainian flag. if confirmed, the movement by ukraine's forces signals a push in a new direction, into that territory illegally annexed by russia in 2014. meanwhile, the russian militia leader who briefly challenged vladimir putin's hold on power in june was reported to be on board a private jet that crashed shortly after taking off from moscow. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest. >> reporter: was this putin's revenge? russian aviation officials say a corporate jet fell from the sky wednesday and that putin's one-time aide turned enemy yevgeny prigozhin was among the ten passengers killed. everything about this crash is suspicious. the flight took off from moscow, reached 28,000 feet, then disappeared from radar, dropping quickly and uncontrollably, suggesting the plane was hit by a missile or there was a bomb on board. witnesses described hearing an explosion and seeing the plane break into pieces. "i heard a big bang," said this man. "a wing flew off in one direction and the fuselage fell off like that and it glided down on one wing." the timing is also suspicious, two months to the day after prigozhin, the leader of the wagner mercenary group, launched a mutiny on the kremlin, challenging putin's grip on power. prigozhin stopped after reaching a deal with putin for amnesty that few believed was genuine. a wagner member this morning said the group will continue to operate under new management. "we have other commanders who we obey and we will operate further. what has happened has happened. we have to stay together." prigozhin was seen days ago in africa, where wagner has interests in gold and diamond mines. it's unclear why he returned to moscow and boarded the plane. >> joining us now, former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul. ambassador, it's good to have you with us. you know the players and the country well. what do you suspect happened here with prigozhin? >> we'll probably never know the facts, because putin doesn't want us to know the facts. but i think this was a signal to traitors. he's done this before. it was a dramatic way to do it if he did indeed assassinate prigozhin, which i think he did. i think it send a signal to others that have been challenging putin and criticizing the way he's conducting the war, be careful what you say and do. he decided to take this very dramatic act to kill prigozhin. there's a lot of weird things about it, however. prigozhin was given some kind of amnesty and allowed to hang out with african leaders on the sidelines of putin's own summit with them in st. petersburg and even met with vladimir putin a few weeks ago. so that part is mysterious to me. but at the end of the day, this is putin killing a thug who betrayed him. >> so, ambassador, obviously there are apparently recorded reports according to the manifest, a commander from the wagner group as well aboard that plane. what else do you suspect is at play? you've been suspicious on our show when that deal was struck just as prigozhin reached the doorstep of moscow that suddenly there was a deal made and it was all over. what is the dynamic at play here? >> i think putin decapitated the entire wagner leadership in shooting down that plane. i should keep saying allegedly. i don't know. like i said, i don't think we'll ever know, like a lot of things that happen in putin's russia. but in doing so, he's shown in the short-term that he's in power and nobody should challenge him. but at the same time, i think it's also a sign of his weakness. remember, these wagner guys have been fighting for putin all over the world, in africa, syria, in ukraine where they killed a lot of people in the battle in bakhmut. not to us and the leaders of the armed forces, who had no love for prigozhin. his minister of defense shoigu had no love for this guy. but common soldiers did, because they were considered tough fighters and they fought alongside them on the battlefield in ukraine. what you're seeing on some kind of pro-war telegram channels, they are reverent of prigozhin as a lost hero. there's flowers at his headquarters in st. petersburg. that if you're vladimir putin has to be troubling to see, that this is not somebody considered a traitor by everyone, but by some, including in the russian armed forces, was considered a hero. >> you know russia better than most. is there any part of you that thinks this whole thing may be in play, that maybe it's possible we've been played from the beginning? i didn't understand why his former chef would be speaking out against him except to undermine other military leaders around putin so putin didn't have to do it himself. he suddenly talks about how he's going to launch a coup. he gets halfway to moscow, he stops. there's suddenly a peace deal from belarus. all is forgiven. a lot of this makes absolutely no sense. i'm just asking you, would you be surprised if this was all an inside deal and an inside play from the beginning to have his former chef attack people around him and the kremlin. >> it's a great point, joe. i don't know the answer. it is all very strange. it is not logical. what happened two months ago was extremely strange where you had putin going on tv saying these guys were traitors, we're going to crush them like bugs. then two hours later he cuts a deal with them, then two months later he shoots them out of the air. why did he do this in such a dramatic way? why couldn't they arrest him or shoot him? to add to the mysteries, i'm not 100% sure that vladimir putin ordered this assassination. the last time when there was a major assassination in moscow in 2015 of an opposition leader, a former friend of mine, by the way, putin disappeared for four days. nobody really confirmed whether he was the one that ordered the assassination or not. i wasn't be surprised if somebody within the armed forces did that as retribution to this guy without putin's approval. that's the kind of place russia has become. again, i want to underscore this guy prigozhin had worked with vladimir putin for decades. this is not some rebellious guy he's been at odds with for a long time. they were business partners. he used him in ukraine, in syria and africa. he's showing right now in these photos that prigozhin was popular in russia. just to shoot him and kill him and then move on is a dangerous move for putin. i don't think it's a sign of weakness or a sign of strength. i think it's a sign of weakness that he had to take him out. >> as you say, we may never get the answers to these questions given the opacity of the russian government. michael mcfaul, we appreciate it. coming up, our next guest says americans need to disagree better when it comes to political discourse. utah governor spencer cox joins us to talk about his efforts to teach americans how to have healthy conflict in a divided country. e healthy conflict in a divided country. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ vo: they love visiting farms for photo ops. voltaren. ththe republicans.t. throw on blue jeans, stand next to a tractor. but right now, our farms are hurting. from droughts in wisconsin, to floods in iowa, to extreme heat just about everywhere. climate change is crushing our farmers. and they won't do a damn thing about it because that would mean taking on the oil industry. yeah, they'll stand up for photo ops, but will they ever stand up to big oil? 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>> sure, well, you might be very disappointed in me. i did not watch the debate last night. i did catch up on the highlights. like most americans i have a lot of work to do and didn't have a couple of hours to sit down and watch tv last night. i did think that nikki haley stood out know. i'm a little partial to governors. we have lots of governors or former governors that are running for president right now in my party. i was very impressed with her, with her knowledge and her ability to communicate, her ability to communicate honestly, her ability to take on some really hard topics and do so in what i felt was a respectful manner. but again, disagreeing better isn't about just agreeing that we all have to get along, it's about attacking ideas and not people. i thought she really stood out last night in a very positive way. >> governor, you've said in the past i like to win elections. i don't believe donald trump can win the general election. we need somebody else. we look at the polling, he's winning overwhelmingly at this point. we understand it's early. did you see someone on that stage who can change this dynamic of the race where it seems to be that trump only gets stronger with every indictment that comes down the pike. do you see something changing in this race that allows one of those people on stage to catch him? >> look, as you said, it is very early. you know, i'm surprised we're even doing debates before labor day. historically polling has not mattered much, but i also have to be honest. this is pretty unique, right? it's rare that we have a former president who is running, who has a lead like this and who has seen since really 2015 and 2016 to be impervious to anything that would normally happen in politics and so i don't know that there's anything that could change that direction. except that i do think it's important to point out that polling in just the last week show -- and i think this is just remarkable and also kind of insane that 70% of republicans actually don't want donald trump to even run, and 75% of democrats don't want joe biden to run. so we're headed down this path where two of the least popular candidates ever are very likely to get nominated by their parties, and so i do think there were some positives last night. i don't know how many people were -- i haven't seen the numbers yet, we'll see what polling happens over the next couple of days. it is still so early. we also have is this crazy way of electing or nominating our candidates where, you know, iowa matters much more than utah or really anyplace else, new hampshire. these two small states that have having such a large impact in this. so my hope is that iowans were watching and paying attention and that they saw something they liked. >> so governor, i want to talk about disagreeing better and something i picked up from you, it's one of the first times i ever heard a whole lot about you. it was several months ago and the huge debate was trans athletes and people on the left and the right. mainly the right were using this as a wedge issue, and despite the fact 82% of americans we saw in a pew poll don't want male athletes who transition post-puberty to compete against women, right? so it's pretty fixed politically about where most americans are, but you did something i thought pretty remarkable. you vetoed a bill that would ban trans athletes that was overturn, if a veto was overturned, and your response was wond. wonderful. you basically said i understand, this doesn't make a lot of sense to a lot of us, but we've got like four trans athletes in the entire state of utah. we should be able to help them. we should show compassion to them. and i thought, my gosh, how revolutionary, somebody in politics in 2023 leading with compassion. doesn't mean you're going to do everything that everybody wants you to do, but looking at an issue through the lens of compassion. through the lens of love almost sounds revolutionary and radical in 2023, but you did it and i just think -- you talk about disagreeing better, how important is compassion in this whole equation. >> yeah, i appreciate that. and by the way, i'm aware 82% of americans are -- i actually agree that males post puberty transitioning to females should not be competing and taking scholarships away from our girls. i don't believe we should be doing any of that, and in fact, everything i said was going to happen actually happened, a judge put a stay on that ban, and we found another way to, again, i think a much more compassionate way here in utah to implement that. so you know, i think there are ways to solve some of the biggest problems, but compassion does matter. look, this isn't just -- i think it's much bigger than just politics. i think the course we are headed down as a nation is unsustainable. we can't continue to tear each other apart. we can't hate -- i believe there's nothing more un-american than hating our fellow americans, and the political violence that we're seeing on both sides, you know, we saw it in 2020 with riots. that is the direction we are headed down. and we are allowing politicians to take this hyperpartisanship and use it for their advantage to continue to tear us apart. i actually think it's good politics to show some compassion. to care about other people. i think it's good politics, but i think our national security, i think when you look at what's happening in russia and ukraine and with vladimir putin and xi jinping, i think they want us to be divided because we are weaker as a nation when we do that, and so showing compassion and care for our fellow americans, especially when we disagree is absolutely critical. >> absolutely critical. utah governor spencer cox, thank you so much. and that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," just hours to go until history happens in georgia. donald trump is expected to turn himself in to authorities in fulton county and potentially become the first former president with a mug shot. nine already booked at the rice street jail with ten more including trump to go. we're live from atlanta where the suspense is building this morning. plus, the gloves come off. the first gop debate brought fireworks, fights, but not the former president. did anyone emerge with the momentum to topple trump? and later, the man who dared march an army towards moscow now

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