maybe as university commencement, you get the idea. and then there are speeches from our most recent former president. before i show you his speech today, i have to warn you it is vulgar. but we are going to play it uncensored, for reasons that i will outline after we play this sound. so prepare yourself. >> i'm sorry, i won't be able to go to iowa today, i won't be able to go to the new hampshire today, because i'm sitting in a court room today on bullshit because the attorney general charge mean something. terrible. [applause] >> bullshit! bullshit! >> that was a former president united states, president donald trump, in new hampshire today, calling the multiple criminal indictments against him very serious charges, that was trump characterizing those indictments as bs. i'm not bringing this up because trump was unhinged in new hampshire today, but because how unhinged don't trump's may actually substantively matter for these court cases you might remember that last friday, after trump posted on his social media website, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. after trump posted that, special counsel jack smith asked the judge in the 2020 election case to issue what is known as a protective order, limiting what trump can and cannot say publicly. and here was trump today, talking about that very same protective order. >> crooked joe now wants the thug prosecutor, this deranged guy, to file a court order, taking away my first amendment rights so that i can't speak. so listen to this. >> we don't want you to speak about the case, the case. i will talk about it, i will, they're not taking away my first amendment rights. [applause] >> i will talk about it, i will. now we should make clear here, this isn't jackson ad saying that trump can't talk about this case at all. this is jack smith, asking very specifically that donald trump not be allowed to do anything that could intimidate or threaten anyone involved in this case. and, we do not have to imagine what that might look like. trump's legal team has already laid it out. in its own filing yesterday, trump's defense team literally crossed out, strike-through text, certain lines of the prosecutions proposed order. the defense doesn't think trump should be barred from publicly releasing things, including recordings, transcripts, interview reports, and related exhibits of witnesses. he will talk about it, he will. so today, the judge in that case, tanya chutkan, scheduled a hearing on friday at ten a. m. in washington d. c. to settle this matter. my question is, what happens if trump is ordered by federal court not to talk about something like this but then, just does it anyway. presumably, there is some legal peril in trump's strategy here but, that does not seem to be stopping the man. in fact, on top of all of this, there might possibly be more indictments to come. today, the same, grand jury that indicted trump last week was spotted meeting again in d. c.. grand juries cannot continue meeting on indictments that have already been charged, so this would be something else. this would be something new. and that comes after we got this a very great reporting from betsy woodruff swan at politico. on monday, jack smith's prosecutors had a closed-door interview with a friend of rudy, bernie kerik. and they asked mr. kerik, multiple questions about how trump's pack, save america, raised enormous amounts of money in the weeks between the election and january 6th. you may remember that trump raised more than $250 million in the eight weeks after the 2020 election, and he did so by running ads like this or. >> america deserved an honest election. this is what they got. suitcases of ballots, added in secret in georgia. dead people voting in wisconsin. a money for votes scheme in nevada. poll watchers denied access in pennsylvania. faulty ballot drop boxes, and crooks facing felony charges in michigan. the evidence is overwhelming. >> for months, well before trump's latest indictment came out, we had seen report after report, that special counsel jack smith was investigating trump's use of false claims about the election to raise money. we even have reporting that smith was particularly interested in seeing if any of that activity amounted to wire fraud. and now, it looks like we have confirmation that part of jack smith's investigation, the part that deals with potential wire fraud, campaign finance fraud, that that part is very much ongoing. the special counsel may very well not be done here. and that may be a good call on jack smith's part, because the former president is not done lying. >> there was never a second of any day, that i didn't believe that the election was rigged. it was a rigged election. [applause] it was a regulation, and it was a stolen, disgusting election. [applause] and this country should be ashamed. >> joining us now are politico national correspondent and msnbc contributor betsy woodruff swan and former federal prosecutor and co-host of the prosecuting donald trump podcast andrew weissmann. thank you both for joining me tonight. andrew, are we going to see a superseding indictment here, or do you think this grand jury action is about the coconspirators who are unnamed in the initial indictment? >> well, i think that the odds of seeing this superseding indictment in the january 6th case against donald trump are low. and that's because it's clear that the prosecution wants that to go to trial, and they want a trial date, and they want it to be either before the election-- >> fast-tracked. >> or even before the republican nomination. but, what we could see is to your point, the coconspirators, i think it's highly likely that some, if not all, will be indicted. but that can be in a separate case. and then on the financial piece, that also could be a separate set of charges. and that doesn't necessarily need to go all the way up to donald trump, to bring that case. remember, that case is very similar to the cases brought against steve bannon and his cohorts in build the wall. which is basically just a fraud case, when you raise money saying x, when you meant not x. when you have the same thing, what i find is very interesting if that proceeds, is, that could lead to pretrial forfeiture. we did this in the mueller investigation, and so you could end up with that packed, with a money being frozen. >> the save america? pack >> exactly. and what is being used for. >> legal bills. >> exactly, sorry but. >> we take it on the road. >> wait a second, i mean that's deeply problematic, given the fact that this is effectively the piggy bank for all of the defendants, that are thus far trolling the line for donald trump. this is where we think those funds are being paid from. so the house those fronts frozen, would be significant legal implications. >> i mean there could be other funds that are available. but if they are funds that are obtained by fraud, and obviously the government have to prove that, that there is a showing that needs to be made. but, you can get pretrial seizure procedure orders. we did that in the special counsel investigation. obviously, that all requires proof, it requires a court to do that. but if this is where they are going, you could do that, and that doesn't have to be a charge against donald trump. it can be against the pack itself, it can be against lower level people, and still have both civil and criminal forfeiture. >> betsy, one of the reasons we think that the grand jury is hearing evidence related possible campaign fraud, is because bernie kerik, who we mentioned in the lead, and according to your reporting, was meeting with prosecutors on monday. can you tell us more about why bernie kerik may be the sort of kevin bacon of all of this? a person that connects the various spokes on the wheel? >> yeah, he's a bit of a forrest gump type character. he and rudy giuliani go way, way back, to their days running a powerful office within the city of new york. bernie kerik of course was the nypd commissioner, he has been very close allies of giuliani for decades now. and in that crazy window, between election day 2020, and january 2026, bernie kerik very much worked hand and glove with rudy giuliani, under him, on that legal team that was trying to find any sort of evidence, any sort of pretext to make the case that the election had been stolen by joe biden. what we also know, based on the conversation that i had today with bernie kerik's lawyer, who was in the room with the special counsel's team for the interview that bernie kerik held with them earlier this week, is that jack smith's prosecutors were very interested in save america, interested in who was making decisions about fund raising and also, interested in who was making decisions about how the money that the pack may raised was spent. when it comes to this fraud question, one thing people should just keep in mind based on public reporting, going back for years now, is that a real bone of contention between a rudy giuliani and people in trump's orbit, was the fact that rudy giuliani actually hardly got paid during that window of time. giuliani and his allies were pushing trump, in the month or two after biden's inauguration, to help pay giuliani for what he had done, and to pay for the exploding legal bills that giuliani was facing. so, an outstanding question is not just, were the save america pact fundraisers deliberately lying, potentially committing wire fraud, in raising money for that entity. but also, when they claimed that they were going to use that money, the money people gave very generously, these trump small dollar donors gave in that window. when they said they're going to use that money to contest the election, what do they actually do with it, and what does that mean from the standpoint of the lies governing campaign finance? >> betsy, just really quick. i mean from tim parlatore, who we've had on this program as recently as last week, is the lawyer in question here, there has not been the public suggestion that bernie kerik is going to be giving, shall we say damning evidence the prosecution. but it sort of sounds like he might. >> that's right, i am not aware of any indicators that bernie kerik's testimony was the sort of discussion that would have gotten rudy giuliani in trouble. but he is a port of course, we could he just knows so much. when it comes to the question of filling in factual gaps, having somebody who was in the room for conversations, having someone who can explain all of the minor characters who played important but perhaps underestimated roles in the machinations that rudy giuliani and sidney powell were involved in, kerik himself provides that valuable insight. he is not indicated, in trump's indictment, as an unindicted coconspirator. but, without a doubt, he was very close, and had detailed knowledge of the activities of rudy giuliani, who of course is one of those unnamed, unindicted coconspirators, in the indictment. >> andrew, there were a lot of flies on the wall, in and around the campaign in the white house. and the flies are coming in, i'm just the metaphor is gonna exhaust itself shortly. but, i do want to, before we end the segment. i do want to ask about this protective order, because this very much remains unresolved. judge chutkan has said, -- the trump team didn't come in until next friday. she sort of laid down the law. >> she is the judge. >> she is the judge. but, i do wonder, the behavior of trump on the campaign trail today does not show a man who seems to take a little concerned with the content of anything he is saying. he is as aggressive as he ever has been. what are the potential outcomes here? >> so, one thing i think is really important for people to recognize, and has not gotten a lot of attention is, when you are out on bail, you do not have the same rights as the rest of us. just remember, people await trial at times in jail. >> right. >> and you think they are gonna let the let go, and say it's restricting my liberty? of course it is, that's what bail is. to say oh, it's restricting my first amendment rights, that's right. and at times, a judge can do that if it's necessary. so, here, the judge i think is going to be very concerned about the integrity of the judicial process. and what i mean by that is, making sure that donald trump is not using his speech to threaten witnesses. now, we saw that happen the day after the arraignment, when he had sworn that he wasn't going to do that. he is out on bail on three cases. if i were the judge, that's the primary thing that i would be worried about, and that's why the government--this may seem like a small skirmish, but to me it isn't. it really goes to making sure that witnesses, jurors, judges. >> judges. >> family members are not going to be harassed and threatened. and it doesn't mean that donald trump is going to do it himself, but he is certainly aware that his reckless talk leads to those consequences. and unfortunately, this country has seen examples of that, and we have talked about people like ruby freeman and her daughter. and we've talked about paul pelosi, fbi offices, the family members of alvin bragg, of judge marchand in new york. all of whom have been actual people, who are victims of donald trump's mouth and saying things that he shouldn't. and that is the reason why you have this kind of protective order, to make sure that this doesn't happen. >> and he continued on tonight. he posted to truth social, going after judge chutkan, impugning her reputation. the beat goes on, as it were. betsy, thank you so much for that great reporting. thanks for joining me tonight, andrew weissmann, we are never really ever done with you, so please stay here for a few more minutes. we have a lot this evening. ohio voters went to the polls today, and chose to protect democracy from an all out assault. breaking election results are coming out. plus, when one of trump's defense attorneys tried out a brand-new defense on fox news this weekend, was the judge watching? more on that, coming up next. 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>> first, regardless of how she got there, the fact of what she did is to say the least unusual. she did it as you noted on her own and it showed a fundamental misunderstanding of basic 101 criminal law as to how grand juries work. as to how they can continue investing ongoing crime of either an existing defendant or other defendants, and other crimes that may be committed. so, this is a classic case. it is also the case that you can bring a grand jury investigation in any district where the crime may have occurred. remember, when you start investigation, you don't even know that the crime has occurred or who did it, or where has occurred. so you're allowed to go to many different districts, where it could be the case, as long as you have a good faith basis. so this was such a fundamental understanding. and what i was thinking about is, where in god's green earth is she getting this idea? because it is so off the charts from everything in the record. why is she doing this? it's not like the litigants raised the issue. she is doing it on her own, and it is so wrong. and then, there you have jim trusty, the former president's former counsel. raising this issue, the night before. and that morning she issues this. so it's a real issue in terms of people who think that judge cannon may have learned her lesson, and this may be cannon 1.0. she has really changed since the 11th circuit struck her down twice. this suggests. >> not so. >> not so. this is still cannon 1.0. >> very much, or just cannon oh point oh, beta testing. joyce, what are the implications here. i mean, did the prosecutors face any kind of repercussions here, or is this so unfounded, and so, for a lack of a better term, bonkers, that nobody is going to really take it seriously. i mean, could this affect the use, could this affect any of the materials derived from the closed door testimony of the grand jury in washington d. c.? >> no it won't have any impact on that grand jury investigation alex, i think bonkers is a pretty good word to use to describe this argument. and andrew and i, andrew, we may have even been in the situation at one point. it's not unusual to have different u.s. attorneys offices commencing investigation, because both of them are seeing some form of crime. at the same time, both offices investigate till they bump into each other, and then they will resolve the issue of which district will move forward with what charges. nothing improper about having those grand juries operating at the same time. but, beyond this idiosyncrasy, that andrew has pointed out in the argument that the judge raises, it's not just that she raises it, it's the context that she does it in. because the government has asked for a garcia hearing. that's a hearing into a conflict of interest between one of the defendants lawyers, and his client. this is walt nauta's lawyer, and he represents some of the folks, or is represented in the fact in the past folks who will be witnesses in this case. so the government asked the judge to set what's called a garcia hearing, so that they can go into open court and put that on the record, with the defendant present. some defendants will hear that their lawyer has a conflict of interest, and they might choose to reconsider that representation. you know, i don't want to be too suspicious here. i just find it to be passibly odd that the judge has taken a motion that is supposed to be about one thing, and she has come up with this crazy theory, and instead she is trying to make it about that. so, i'll throw a little bit of oxygen onto the flames of the argument that andrew is making. >> well, please do joyce. because i think even to the layman, this seems deeply problematic. i mean, it's not just, it's more than, i mean, this is a judge who has not had any trial experience almost. she's very young, and lots of young people with knots a lot of experience do very good things. but this far, her batting average is not good. and, is their cause to maybe ask for a another judge at this point, if you are a prosecutor on this case? >> so alex, it actually gets worse then what we've discussed so far. because, the government submitted to her some information about these other people, who were cooperating for the garcia hearing that joe has talked about. and that was grand jury material. and the judge said, why was this submitted to me under seal? you didn't set out a basis, and struck them from the record. the basis, i mean -- had the same reaction, which was back -- after our jaws clatter to the ground, the basis is grand jury secrecy. i mean, that is again 101. there is no more than you need to say. and the second part is, she then said something about where the other investigation was, which is also grand jury secrecy. so, the government has to be thinking, what do we do at this point? >> yeah, and joyce to that and. i mean, the thing that sort of rescued the special master debacle was the 11th circuit, not known as a bastion of liberalism. do you think somehow they get involved in this? i mean, there are plenty of trump appointed judges, and they seem to understand the law in the way that judge cannon does not. >> so i think we know that the special counsel does not want to have to go to the 11th circuit. he is trying to focus straight ahead, getting his case to trial. but that said, there are some things that happen where you can be forced to take an appeal to the 11th circuit, and it's a court that is well versed in the handling a very prompt emergency appeal. so, i think we could possibly see an appeal here on the issue that andrew has identified, this notion that she won't let them put evidence that has to do with grand jury proceedings into the record, under seal. again, that's a pretty standard thing to do. and they may have to appeal her, and an appeal like that would be a good time to raise the recusal issue, if they are so inclined. but you know, this is not an inexperienced judge when it comes to the way of federal prosecutors because before she, became a judge she was an assistant united states attorney in the southern district of florida. she served in that appellate district. she knows how the grand jury works. it's tough to believe that it is just a simple mistake. >> oh, a little edge of nefarious-ness injected in the end. andrew weissmann, joyce vance, no two better people to weigh in on this topic. thank you both for your time and expertise as always. still more to come this evening. there is a new casualty in florida governor ron desantis's culture war. that casualty's name is william shakespeare. we will explain that, coming up. breaking news out of ohio. democracy itself just one. that is next. and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. meet the portable blender we can barely keep in stock. blendjet 2 gives you ice-crushing, big blender power on-the-go. so you can blend up a mouthwatering smoothie, protein shake, or latte wherever you are! recharge quickly with any usb port. best of all, it even cleans itself! just blend water with a drop of soap. what are you waiting for? 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(warehouse ambience) introducing togo's new french dip sandwiches featuring fresh artisan bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with melty provolone cheese and served with hot au jus for dipping. try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today >> tonight is a major victory only at togo's for democracy in ohio. the majority still rules in ohio. >> we have some breaking news out of ohio tonight, where voters went to the polls in an election with just one single issue, a whole lot of implications. the associated press has now called the race that ohio has rejected ballot issue one with about 57% of the state voting no. that number is with about 52% of precincts reporting, according to unofficial results from the ohio secretary of state. ballot issue one was a measure to raise the threshold for changing constitutional amendments. essentially, it would've made those amendments harder to pass. in gerrymandered states, especially ballot referendums unconstitutional events have become some of the only ways that voters can make their voices heard, especially when it comes to big ticket issues like reproductive choice. not coincidentally, there is one such a referendum on this november's ballot in ohio, one that if it passes, could protect abortion rights and stands a very good chance of passing, especially with the result we have tonight. that's why republicans in the state tried to make it harder to get those sorts of referendums passed. there has been record breaking turnout in this august election, which is somewhat ironic because earlier this year, state republicans voted to eliminate august elections, citing the traditionally low turnout for elections this time of year. those very same republicans change their minds this summer, because presumably, that traditionally low turnout would've benefited them on this issue specifically. having said that, as of last friday, 578,000 people had already cast their ballots, which is more than twice the number of people who voted early for the 2022 primary. joining us now, katie paris, founder of red wine and blue, a group of suburban women working to counter right-wing extremism who also pose for ballot issue number one. thanks for being here tonight. congratulations are in order. this is an issue you fought hard for. can you talk to me about what women were telling you about ballot issue one, and what motivated them to go to the polls in ohio, a state that is reddish, if not red entirely. >> women were very clear in their rejection of extremism in this election. there is no doubt that our desire, that our demand to get our reproductive rights back, it's huge as a motivating force in this election. voters, suburban women are who we represent, and it's just incredible to see these election results tonight. counties in the suburbs that went for republicans in the u. s. senate and governor's race in'22 are voting overwhelmingly know tonight. we are also seeing that in our exurban, more rural counties as well. it's just incredible. these counties, j. d. vance won by 60 or 70%, they're voting no. in our own county, one of our urban counties where cleveland 's, but also has tons of suburbs, it's where we have to go big. in 2020, to the turnout was just not enough to carry the state. we're seeing a dramatic difference here tonight. the turnout is blowing everyone out of the water. everyone's expectations, it's good to be an ohioan tonight. the ramifications are huge. not just rejection of extremism in ohio, but republicans have gone too far across this country. it's not just trump. this is a big message against extremism tonight. >> on that note certainly abortion seems to be a driver that continues to bring democrats, independents, and some republicans out to the polls. this was beyond just that. these were sort of anti-democratic tactics being embraced to make it harder for voters to have their voices heard. i wonder, you know, how that fit into the portfolio of reasons why people were going out. i wonder if you heard not just from women, but from independents who understood this to be what it is, which was again, a way of muzzling, if not censoring the voices of ohioans who have a tough time getting legislation passed given the gerrymandered nature of the state. >> it was very blatant. at red wine and blue, a third of our members are former republicans and independents. if republicans keep trying things like this, those numbers are just going to continue to grow. this was absolutely not just democrats are rejecting extremism. it was independents, republicans as well. it was so transparently a power grab, just going way, way too far. not only that, i think they really expected that hey, we're just going to sneak this through. it will be a low turnout election. no one will notice. but then they saw these huge numbers coming out in early voting. so they cranked up their disinformation machine. it's been a shame to see what we have seen across the state in the last few weeks. there have been huge attempts to drive fear into the hearts of voters. even my group and me personally, we have been targeted. as these targets of disinformation. what we have seen here tonight is that that doesn't work. the voters see through the disinformation. there has been backlash to that. i've had women across the state telling me that it's just motivated them, not just to vote, but to reach out to their friends, and to their family. make sure that everybody is voting no in this election. it's about our democracy. it's about our values, it's about being able to have a voice in our state. that went way beyond any partisan lines. >> can i ask, are you assuming, are you as bullish on the passage of the ballot referendum in november that would ensure on the women's right to choose into the state constitution? the numbers track almost evenly in terms of support for that with opposition to ballot issue one. do you think that this is the same sort of turnout, that will be the case in november? >> i've never been more excited to vote yes in november. that is what i'm hearing from voters across the state tonight. red wine and blue was part of this amazing coalition across the state, collecting signatures. you might know that we have collected 710,000 signatures to put reproductive freedom on the ballot. that effort started in march. every single voter that we spoke to, we said okay, you are signing to put reproductive freedom on the ballot in november. first, you have to vote no in august. then you get to vote yes in november. we are just so, so excited for that opportunity tonight. we know that every poll shows, i don't trust every poll, but every poll from everyone shows that 57, 58, 59% of ohio voters will support this reproductive rights amendment. some of the numbers are just incredible. 85% of independent women support the reproductive rights ballot initiative. i'm very excited. i'm proud to be in ohioan tonight. i do expect to get results in november. >> congratulations on your work tonight. katie paris, founder of red, wine, and blue, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you so much. still to come this evening, it's a comedy of errors, but it isn't funny. florida schools are bearing the brunt of governor desantis's latest front in the culture. wars we are going to explain all that, coming up next. all that, coming up next. s virus... 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that is a question for high school teachers in hillsboro county florida, as they head back to class this thursday. according to the tampa bay times, english teachers there are preparing lessons for the new school year with only excerpts from william shakespeare's works. if hillsboro english students want to read a whole shakespeare play, they have to do it on their own time. that is happening because of the new expansion of florida's parental rights in education act brought to you by governor ron desantis and known as the don't say gay act. that law tells schools to steer clear of content and class discussion that is sexual in nature unless it's related to a standard, such as health class, the hillsborough county spokesperson told the tampa bay times that they took that law into consideration when they redesigned their lesson plans this year, and what they came up with was just touching the non sexy parts of shakespeare. not the whole plays. as the paper, put in staying with the experts, the schools can teach about shakespeare while avoiding anything racy or sexual. this means the hamlet and mcbath, maybe the most high school play of all-time, romeo and juliet, none of them will be taught in their entirety. just the excerpts. so that highschoolers minds will be shielded from a 16th century innuendo like this. >> come you spirit with mortal thoughts. >> shall i lie in your lab? 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biktarvy can go with you. baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, 36 month financing on select smart beds. shop now only at sleep number. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? >> vo: for us, driving around is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. we went to safelite.com. there's no one else we'd trust. their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our car's advanced safety system. they focus on our safety... so we can focus on this little guy. >> if donald trump were to be >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ found guilty by a jury, where do you see this going? >> a civil war. people have had it. we have had it. >> there is a trump supporter in new hampshire today telling nbc news that if trump is convicted, there would be civil war. where we heard this before? meanwhile, trump's nearest competitors for the republican presidential nomination continue to battle themselves. just two weeks after ron desantis laid off more than a third of his campaign staff, today the campaign is retrenching again. messenger news was the first to report the governor desantis has now replaced his 36 year old campaign manager, who had no national campaign experience with a 35-year-old political aide with no national campaign experience. desantis's new campaign manager, james --, previously served as the governor's chief of staff in florida where he was known for spearheading the states disastrous anti-masking and anti-vaccine policies during the pandemic. that is the desantis campaign. meanwhile, former vice president mike pence announced that he has qualified for the republican party's first primary today, which is later this month. it is cause for some celebration in pence world. the former vice president is currently polling at 6%. joining me now to make sense of all of this is tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark. i loved your newsletter today. you have a novel theory about why some of these, shall we call them underdogs, may remain in the race longer than wood naturally make sense? can you talk about that theory? >> it is partially a theory, but partially based on something that the desantis staffer told me. i stopped short when really suggested that maybe his candidate, some of these other candidates would stay in the race longer to amass delegates in the possibility that donald trump is convicted, in jail, so ensconced in legal troubles that he could not accept that nomination. to me, it feels like that's a bargaining stage of accepting a loss. it's happening rather early, before even the first debate. the fact that these guys have been talking about this, i shows how desperate the straits are. and look, is there an outside chance that donald trump is in jail by next summer? yes. i guess so. i think that we would all love to grab the popcorn and watch republican convention floor fight with donald trump, have him fighting from his delegates from jail. it seems like that might be the best, the strongest position with which to fight the front runner. >> if that is your strategy, wait for the other guy to be in an orange jumpsuit, i mean, having said that there is also the mathematical reality. a lot of republican early primary states are winner take all, are they not? >> yes. exactly, there are a lot. some proportional, donald trump has been changing that. he's been being even more winner take all. there is no way that you can get to a majority this way. i think the thinking is, right, maybe you stay around, or there is negotiation it has to happen. but again, this is all fantastical stuff. i think that it mostly just speaks to donald trump's strength, just how desperate these campaigns are. . just how few outs they feel like they have. and you mentioned mike pence, for example, vivek ramaswamy, who with desantis, he is a 37 year old hindu whose claim to fame that -- he's beating the sitting vice president. that is telling you where the party voters are right now. they want somebody maga, and vivek is trying to offer a pale imitation of trump. i think that that's why he's doing better. that's what these establishment guys are going to come up with, they have these theories of how it might land in our favor. >> tim, you posted this picture of desantis and at his event, i think it's iowa. can we pull it up? you did say that not all of his events have been this empty, but i myself was shocked that he couldn't pack all of it. even with all of his campaign shakeups, this is a person who had a fairly sizable operation, you think his advanced team might do something to make sure he was packed. were you surprised? >> i was. as someone who spent three years, i would get it right, iowa, and over there, at this place, unlike good at crowd guessing. i never liked to do that. in this case, i had to count the crowd. 34 people showed up, kind of a big barn. we took this picture, i mean, why are they doing this? why are you having this massively funded super pac? it's on the weekend. and again, there were some other events that were better, but going back to ramaswamy, later that same day, i saw him in an even smaller town two hours away with triple the size of that crowd. it looked a lot better. i think it speaks to the problem that desantis is having getting any excitement for his campaign. >> you know when it's bad, when you can actually count the crowd. tim miller, thank you for the great reporting, and insight. that is our show for tonight. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell, good evening lawrence. >> good morning alex, speed reading in the new york times report about the memo that is crucial evidence in the latest indictment of donald trump. you are the pronunciation expert for kenneth, kenneth. >> i am not actually. can i take a moment and i had it on good authority that it is chesbrough, and then it's cheeseborough. you think they would take it. you're giving him the -- >> it is spelled c h s e b r o. there are not the two ease together, but kenneth chesebro 's memo that the -- if they did not find in the