and mississippi the former chair of the historic january six committee about the second indictment of donald trump. a second or a velshi begins right now. good morning, and sunday august the 6th, i'm ali velshi. donald trump's legal team has until five pm tomorrow to respond to the government's request for a protective order before it agrees to turn over evidence in the election interference case. the ruling came after a series of motions filed on saturday afternoon and quick succession. trump's team asked to push the deadline back by three days and to hold a hearing on the matter, which is a sign of how the former president's attorneys are going to try to slow things down, much like the presidents past attorneys have done in various other legal matters. special counsel's legal team quickly argued against it, calling that motion unnecessary. ultimately, judge tanya, the judge appointed to oversee the election interference case denied the trump team's motion for a delay. her order came less than 24 hours after the government initially filed the request for the protective order, which would limit what information trump and his attorneys can make public about the case. and its initial filing, the special counsel's team included a screenshot of a post from the former presidents truth social page that read, quote, if you go after me, i am coming after you. the former president published that post just one day after he was warned during his arraignment not to influence a juror or try to intimidate witnesses or anyone else involved in the case. with this third indictment, donald trump stands accused of numerous crimes involving his conduct from before, during, and after his presidency. but this one, the election interference case is about much more than just donald trump or what will happen to him if he's convicted while campaigning to return to the white house. this case is gonna have huge implications for our democracy and our system of governance, something that we discussed and talked for many years to come, except for in florida, where the ban it. it was a long road to get to this point. never guarantee donald trump would even be prosecuted in connection to this case, especially with so many republican allies eager to move on from it and leave democracy vulnerable to future attacks from within. for all of the work the special counsel's team has done in order to indict the former president, we can never forget the critical role that the january six committee played. for 18 months, this committee investigating every aspect of the plan that culminated within section of the capitol, the identified the main actors in the scheme to overturn the results of the 2020 election. they heard consequential testimony from more than 1200 witnesses. they collected hundreds of thousands of relevant documents, millions of pages. they held a series of compelling public hearings that help the american people to understand the events that led up to january 6th. last december, as the committee work through this, they released an 814-page report about their findings. issued criminal referrals guns donald trump, john eastman, and others. they have sent to the justice department. there were provided a roadmap for the special counsel, evident in the facts of the case as laid out in last week's indictment and the charges jack smith decided to file, three of which matched the charges in a criminal referral issued by the january six committee late last year. joining me now, the former chairperson of the january six committee, the democratic congressman, benny thompson, of mississippi. congressman thompson, this is your nice first chance to have a conversation since the indictment. we talked before, but i do want to start with your sense of the work that you all did in the 800-page document that you came out with an -- the manifestation of that in this indictment? >> well, thank you for having me. let me just be clear of. our committee had the responsibility to look at the facts and circumstances that brought about january 6th. we did owe that 18 month period, that 800 plus-page report was issued. we were not a prosecutorial body. we shared that work with the department of justice. much of that work was clear in terms of the committee's findings. but we could not presented to a grand jury because we were not that kind of forum. i'm convinced the special counsel and his team looked at it, reviewed it, and said it made sense. so, three of the four charges, as you know, specifically come directly from our recommendations. it's clear in the minds of our committee more, based on our work, that donald trump should have been charged. i am convinced the charges -- in terms of a court, he will ultimately be held accountable for what occurred on january 6th. it was a tragic and sad day for democracy. but somehow, with the help of the good men and women who protected the capitol, we were protected. we cannot allow anyone, even a president of the united states of that time, who is no longer president, to be above the law. >> in the last hour, i had a conversation with jay michael luttig, who you know, a conservative journalist who made the interesting point that while this trial is crucial, not just for the first counts, but that fourth and final count, the violation of rights, the election may be more important. that maybe not where a jury of donald trump's peers decide what happens to the future of this country, but where americans who have the vote decide what happens to this country. tell me about that. you investigated this from a legal perspective, although you are not a prosecutorial body. in the end, donald trump could be in jail and still be the next president of the united states. >> well, you know, that's for the lawyers and jurors to determine how about that. i'm convinced, that is right. not only could he be there, he would have civil service protection that's guaranteed in it. former president for life. there are some answers going with this. tied to this, i'm not certain that we should delay the election. just because a person is running for office, there's no reason to say we need to put it off. everyone is entitled to a speedy trial, even a former president of the united states. i'm convinced him trying to delay the trial was just a typical trump fashion me. the other part, as you talked about, that ku klux klan is significant. it came about after the end of the civil war. congress put it in place so things like this couldn't happen. the congress said the united states of america, we cannot put one side against the other and remain united. it is an effort to keep us united as a country. it is clear that what was occurring on january six was an intentional intent to divide this country. that's what our committee looked at two. >> interesting about that. that act was brought in because of the violence that was being used against people of color and black people to keep them from voting. in fact, the way it's applied in this indictment is not a conversation about the fact that some black people in michigan were being disenfranchised by donald trump's activities or black people in georgia, this was all of us. when you don't count votes properly, you imperil the value of every single vote in america. if i have no problem voting and my vote i think is being counted, with donald trump and team were led to have been doing was to undermine all of our votes, to say, we'll choose whose votes matter, will choose which ones to, count will stop counting when it stops going our way. >> and if not, we will create a process that prevents it from going forward. >> right. >> it was as if those in the greatest democracy in the world, all of a sudden, they didn't matter. and so, they were making the rules as they were going to fit their situation. and in a democracy, you cannot do that. where the nation of laws. so, if you lose, you can go to court, you can ask for recounts. but you cannot change the law. donald trump wanted to change the law to the point that if we do not certify the election in all possibility, he could be held over as president until this issue is resolved. we cannot do that in a democracy. i'm convinced that his at that time, who were telling him he could do certain things, they were wrong. his attorney general, his general counsel and others were quite specific. you lost the election. for whatever reason, he refused to accept it, promote it, and an alternate process. it's the promotion of that alternate theory in terms of the election that has gotten him in trouble. >> congressman, always good to talk to you. thank, you sir. thank you for the important relief plating getting us to this point. the representative, benny thompson, democrat in mississippi. still ahead on this hour of velshi, an alarming move by the largest school district in texas, it almost seems like satire, except it's real. they're turning school libraries 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(whaaat?) i just cleaned those. try dawn platinum. it removes 99% of grease and food residue. that's why dawn is trusted to save wildlife affected by oil. dawn platinum cleans to the squeak. >> all right, this weeks and i am entering introduced us to the real heroes of the 2020 election saga. the state and local officials who stood up to former president trump. the indictment shines a spotlight on these public servants, including brad raffensperger and georgia. quote, the defendant, donald trump insinuated that more than 10,000 dead voters had voted in georgia, just four days earlier, georgia secretary of state explained to the defendant that this was false, and quote. mentions how trump,'s quote, allies in the michigan state legislature, and quote, stood up to him and how, quote, the nevada secretary of state rebutted the defendant's fraud claims by publicly posting a facts versus myths document, and quote. jack smith notes that many of these local officials were republicans, like the speaker there is not a house of representatives who, quote, head to supported the -- issued public statement there is no evidence of substantial fraud in arizona. these public servants stood up to pressure coming from the highest levels of the federal government, from the president himself. they felt firsthand how powerful and scary that pressure was and still, many of them, refused to fold. most of them refused to fold, which is why we still have this republic. joining me now is jocelyn benson, secretary of state for michigan, one of the seven states targeted by donald trump in a scheme to overturn the 2020 election. secretary, good to see you again, thank you for being with us this morning. >> always a pleasure to hear. thank you, ali. >> i want to point out something paragraph three of this indictment. the indictment is over 100 paragraphs long. paragraph three reads as follows. the defendant had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the election. even to claim falsely that there had been outcome to terminated fraud during the election and that he had one. he was also entitled to formally challenge the results of the election through lawful inappropriate means such as seeking recounts or audits of the popular vote in states or filing lawsuits challenging ballots and procedures. indeed, in many cases, the defendant did pursue these methods of contesting the election. his efforts to change the outcome in any state through recounts, audits, or legal challenges were uniformly unsuccessful. you have been one person who since day one of the, sea and i have been talking about, it and you said, sure, there should be audits. in fact, in michigan, you have audits. even if somebody doesn't challenge, stuff you still have audits. you believe that is true? >> oh yes. certainly. we welcome, actually, inquisitions into the process itself because we stand by the security protocols we have in place, not just in michigan, but in states around the country. transparency is key, of course, and responding to these allegations. but what typically happens is when no evidence is uncovered tineke any wrongdoing, then we expect the interrogations to end. instead, in the post-2020 election process, the allegations escalated, and it escalated leading to the tragedy we saw unfold areas capital on january 6th. yeah, every step of the way, there is never any sort of evidence the results of the election michigan or any other state, anything other than an accurate election of the will of the people. again, we welcome questions, but every allegation should be rooted in evidence, legal cases need to be rooted in evidence. whether or not they're dismissed, that's what happened here. >> here, you know, we use you as the prototype for the secretary of state to do. it written books about this. one of the things that kevin mccarthy talked about the other day is that, you know, hillary clinton denigrate the outcome of her election, nobody charged her with anything. al gore didn't grow the outcome of his election, nobody charged him with anything. stacey abrams in georgia didn't agree with the outcome of her election, no one charged her with any of them. i don't recall any of them inciting a riot or any of them telling anyone to take to the streets. hillary clinton conceded that the day after the election, i'll gore conceded as soon as the supreme court determined that he had not won the election. and stacey abrams from for other office. i mean, the comparison was not even close. >> it all has to be rooted in evidence, the truth, and facts. again, where there is evidence of wrongdoing, yes, let's investigate that hold individuals accountable, where there is no evidence than to keep making -- knowingly false aspersions at that point, and then escalating your tactics, inducing people to sign forms or, you know, asking people to sign false electorate statements, and other things, even commit the violence we saw and our capitol and other parts of the country throughout this process. that's where it goes too far. that's what happened here. in all of my conversations with law enforcement and investigators, including the january six committee in congress, the connection between the allegation, the lack of evidence, and the violence that followed, it's really the entire story. that has never happened any other time in the history of our country. >> i want to read you, again, from page one of the indictment, this is paragraph to. it reads, despite having lost, the defendant was determined to remain in power. so, for more than two months following the election day on november 3rd, 2020, the defendant spread lies that there had been outcome determinative fraud in the election and that he had actually won. that term, which i've never used before, you may be familiar with, outcome determinative fraud, it's crucial. if you make the argument into the ether that some dead people vote and some people who live in other states vote, and some people vote twice, all of those things may be true, the thing you, as a secretary of state, have to be concerned about, is it true a lot? what a change the outcome of an election? and is there some sort of structural problem with that happening? or does it happen in the course of things? the outcome determinative part of this is relevant. >> yeah, it's key. of course, anytime there is any wrongdoing, outcome determinant or not, we want to get to the bottom of it and hold people accountable. we've done that in michigan. sometimes in many minor cases where it's just one or two votes or one or two issues, or one vote. if there's fraud, we will seek it out and we will prosecute it appropriately. the other thing in living through the, switch this past week has brought me right back to november in december of 2020, what i remember also is that as we responded to every allegation with facts and evidence, as things escalated, the violence escalated, what was clear to us was these tactics were not just for overturning the results of the election, they were about sowing seeds of doubt about the process itself to cause people to give up, not participate in the future. that's also the battle we've been fighting over the last several years and that we intend to win. >> mike pence was on cnn earlier this morning, he told dana bash that he had no plans to testify in the trump trial. he did say he would follow the law. he also said, these are his words, there are profound issues with the case against donald trump, including around freedom of speech. but i want you to watch with me what happens when dana bash asked him if he will support donald trump if he's the republican nominee, keeping in mind that mike pence is running against donald trump. you can say right here that >> you will roll out voting for donald trump again for president? >> dana, i will tell you, i don't think we'll have to make that decision. i'm confident i'll be able to support the republican nominee, especially if it's me. >> well, that may come to pass. i also may grow a big head of hair. the reason i bring this into the conversation with you is that he was one of those people who stood up to donald trump. they kind of tried to kill him. i am puzzled by why people who are on one side of this versus those who try to overcome the election still have trouble articulating what right and wrong is. >> yeah, me too. i've had a lot of conversations with my colleagues around the country in the last few years. it's been interesting to see how many back, and pretzel twist people will try to simply avoid acknowledging the truth and acknowledging what any american, certainly any american leaders obligation this moment. and that's where the voters come in. it is our responsibility, as voters, to have this truth, to hold people who don't tell the truth accountable at the ballot box. >> that's what people been telling me, whatever you think is gonna come of the trial, whatever you hope is gonna come out of this trial, the election is actually where the american people speak. you still have the vote in this country, protect it. use it. jocelyn benson, we thank you as always for the work you have done and defending our right to vote and to have a vote count. secretary jocelyn benson as the michigan secretary of state. the biggest school district in texas, making some alarming changes, including turning libraries and in school detention centers. one part is not allowing her child's education to be sabotaged without a fight. houston parent activists, laura nationally, directly addressed the new state appointed superintendent in this viral moment. >> there is nothing i want to say right here that's gonna change your mind about anything. either, one, -- destroy the largest district in the city. so, we're turning it over to -- where you think you really know what you're doing and that we don't. that might be a little scarier. oker by this champ. and this future champ. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. he's cocky for a nineteen year old. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte™. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. caplyta can help you let in the lyte™. ask your doctor about caplyta find savings and support at caplyta.com. my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care but, shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. to 50 years with my best friend. [sfx: gasp] [sfx: spilling sound] nooo... aya... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty absorbs spills like a sponge. and is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. bounty, the quicker ♪icker upper. tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. >> all, right summer, now sun, so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ houston, texas will be returning to school that looks different in a particularly scary way. the houston independent school district, the largest district in the state of texas has announced libraries at 28 different schools will be eliminated and turned into so-called team centers or disciplined centers. likely more to come. the new district administration is evaluating libraries at 57 more schools on what they call, a quote, case by case basis, and quote. shocking change comes after the statewide texas education agency took over the district in june. new superintendent, mike miles, brought in by the state from a controversial tenure in dallas to restructure, including laying off librarians and administrators. why? well, the quote was poor academic performance, and quote. now, removing libraries to try to improve education is much more than a ridiculous oxymoron, it's dangerous. janice newsome, worked as a librarian in the district for nearly 20 years condemned the move, telling nbc news, quote, as a high school labor in, as it will see students who had not gain the ability to read on level again that ability by coming to the library. engaging in the activities that we sponsor there. when our students are denied that, it is a tremendous disservice to them, and quote. libraries are so much more than just a place to check out books. their community centers, safe havens for young people who may have nowhere else to go. many of the authors we featured on the velshi banned book club have spoken family but the crucial role libraries played in their lives. >> librarians have played a huge part in my role. you know, a huge role in my development as a person. not only childhood, but for adults. >> i love the power, a kid walks into a library, a school, sees that book on the shelf, they know the represented. >> there is something insidious and perverse about turning a space the children love into a space that they will dread. of, course that's the point, right? this is just the latest battle in the ideological war that were facing in the classroom, one teachers and librarians are not willing soldiers. what's the rule of education in america? as a classroom libra meant to expose students to a viewpoint or expand their minds? where is the a means to uphold one limiting set of beliefs? i think houston has the answer. but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. my late father-in-law lit up a room, but his vision dimmed with age. he had amd. i didn't know it then, but it can progress to ga, an advanced form of the disease. his struggle with vision loss from amd made me want to help you see warning signs of ga. like straight lines that seem wavy, blurry, or missing visual spots that make it hard to see faces like this one, or trouble with low light that makes driving at night a real challenge. if you've been diagnosed with amd and notice vision changes, don't wait. ga is irreversible. it's important to catch it early. talk to your eye doctor about ga and learn more at gawontwait.com >> woman: why did we choose safelite? talk to your eye doctor we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ that's me before dawn powerwash. soaking, scrubbing...that's life. was life. now, powerwash gives me the power of an overnight soak in minutes. i'm sorry, minutes? with 3 cleaning boosters... not found in traditional dish soaps that help break down, loosen and lift away food and grease... so much faster! tougher mess? let the suds sit a few minutes before wiping. even cleans... the grill! thank you! 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tally -- over 30,000 falsehoods during his presidency. to put that in perspective, that's a staggering 21 lies per day. trump's allegations about the 2020 election were calculated to ignite a public uprising that would solidify his grip on power, even if it meant dismantling the very foundations of our 245 real democracy. according to the indictment, trump, quote, deliberately disregarded the truth and spread lies in order to create an intense national atmosphere of mistrust and anger, and erode public faith in the administration of the election. trump's legal team, meanwhile, insists the first amendment protects him. yeah, as the indictment points out, every american has the right to express their views on the election, even if they know those views to be inaccurate, it crosses the legal threshold when falsehoods are employed to facilitate criminal deeds. samuel double buell, a law professor and former prosecutor, perhaps sums it up best, speaking to the new york times, bill says there is no first amendment privilege for giving directions or suggestions to other people to engage in illegal acts. tony soprano cannot invoke the first amendment for telling his crew he wants someone whacked. special counsel jack smith outlined 21 false the surgeons made by trump that were allegedly used to persuade others to engage in criminal conduct. here is some of the bigger lies noted in the indictment. trump claimed and continues to claim that massive fraud change the outcome of the 2020 election and that he, in fact, one. this remains his overarching big lie, if you, will about the election, despite knowing that this narrative was false. as the indictment points out, numerous senior officials in his administration had told him this was false. he persisted and spreading the lie anyway. trump and his coconspirators claimed the fake slate of pro trump electors that they organized in seven states were legitimate electors. the indictment alleges trump's team tried to deliver these phony slates to pence another government officials to try to get them counted on january 6th, the day congress met to count the electoral votes. trump falsely claimed that the justice department had identified simple voting infections that may have affected the outcome of the election. according to the indictment, attorney general william barr and top justice department officials had informed trump that his claims of major fraud were untrue. despite being told, this donald trump still sought to have the justice department, quote, make knowingly false claims of election fraud to officials in the targeted states through a formal letter, that's giving the defendants lies, backing the federal government and attempting to improperly influence the targeted states to replace legitimate biden electors with the defendants. trump repeatedly asserted that pence had the power to reject biden's electoral votes, despite being told on several occasions that this was categorically false. trump told supporters on january six that georgia had thousands of ballots cast in the name of dead people. this, despite georgia's top elections official, the republican secretary of state, brad raffensperger, informing trump in a phone call in january 2nd that this claim was false. trump repeated a false conspiracy theory claiming voting machines in swing states had switched votes from trump to biden, a theory that was debunked by his own administration's elections cybersecurity arm. the indictment, says quote, the defendants attorney general, acting attorney general and acting deputy attorney general had all explained to him that this was false. numerous recounts and audits had confirmed the accuracy of voting machines. trump claimed pennsylvania had 205,000 more votes than voters. a claim that trump's acting attorney general, jeff rosen, and acting deputy attorney general, richard donahue, had both told him was false. that, of course, did not stop him from repeating the lion's january 6th rally speech. joining me now is, paula professor at georgetown university law school, former federal prosecutor, and msnbc legal analyst. i'm also joined by joyce vance, a former united states attorney and professor at the university of alabama law school. also the co-host of the #sistersinlaw podcast. welcome to both of you. thank you for being here. i don't know why we're discussing this, this document is published on paragraph three, jack smith and team state very clearly that donald trump has the right to lie, every american has a right to, by the fifth amendment, the first amendment protects the right to lie. he can even lie when he knows it's false. but there is a line that you cross. and joyce, i will ask you about this. i'm sure lots of people say, i have a right to say what i want. mccarthy is on tv the whole time talking about how hillary clinton disputed her election and stacey abrams disputed her election, and al gore disputed his election, they will follow the rules, the determinations were made, and life went on, but not for donald trump, joyce. >> right, so, the line that you're looking for here is the line between speech and conduct. yes, trump can say what he wants to do. but when he begins to join conspiracies that are designed to defraud the united states, to interfere with certification of the january 6th vote, certifying the electoral college, and ultimately to interfere with our right to vote is individuals, that is the line. he can say whatever he wants to say but. when he puts it into motion, pressuring mike pence, for instance, to interfere with certification on january 6th, that's why we have not just the three conspiracy charges of this indictment, but also that one substantive count of interfering with certification of the vote on january 6th. this is conduct, not speech. >> this is important because counts two and three, paul, count two is the conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. it's two paragraphs long. count three is obstruction of attempting to obstruct an official proceeding. this is where it goes from endlessly sharing your opinion that something was wrong into at one point somebody calling a person associated with mike pence, mike pence's counsel and said, can we have one teeny violation of the electoral count act and bias a few days to sort this out? they acknowledge in notes that this was actually an attempt to violate a law. >> yeah, so, not just laws, what the indictment calls pervasive and d stabilizing lies. not just the big lie the election was stolen, again, it's knowingly lying to vice president pence to bully him and to blocking the certification. if you can go to prison for just telling a lie. donald trump would have gotten locked up a long time ago. nobody prosecuted trump for his big lie that president obama was born in kenya. as joyce knows, the first pen and doesn't protect all speech. if you tell someone, i'm gonna kick your, but that's a threat, if you tell an employee, hide that videotape that the grand jury is asking for, that's obstruction. so, ali, it's not what trump did, that's not what he said, it's what he did that he's being prosecuted for, sticking the mob on pence during his insurrection speech. that wasn't just words. >> i was like people bring up the allegation that barack obama was -- mostly cause it gives me chance to remind people effectuate canyon born muslim, and barack obama wasn't that any of the meetings. joyce, samuel buell's prosecutor, makes an interesting point in which he says, the first amendment defense, this whole idea that he had a right to do it, it won't work legally, it will have some uphill politically, which is why they're pushing it. your thoughts? >> right, i think that's exactly correct, this is maybe trump's strongest offense in the court of public opinion. but it doesn't hold up legally. that's one of the reasons it'll be so important for the public to follow the legal proceedings. there's a lot of legal impediments for trump using the first amendment as a defense here. let's just talk about the most obvious one, it has to be reasonable. in other words, you cannot go and tell someone, hey, let's and democracy together. say, my lawyers told me it was okay to do that. even if your lawyers did, which i think will end up being the case here, this notion that trump could go to pence and say, you've got the right to interfere with the vote when no other vice president has done that in the united states history, simply doesn't pass that reasonable test. as an additional barrier, you cannot rely on the advice of coconspirators who happened to be lawyers. so, jack smith has crafted a very careful indictment that identifies many of the lawyers as unindicted coconspirators, and additional problem for trump in the courtroom when he tries to use the first amendment to justify his conduct. >> i want to talk about that when we come back. there was a lawyer who is writing stuff that donald trump seem to be leaning into. justice department official who seem to be willing to carry it. out paul butler and joyce vance, stay with me, we have more to discuss after a quick break. r a quick break. game today? 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basically no hiccups? you guys have no idea how good you've got it. how old are you? like, 80? back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. we don't get scared. oh, really? mom can see your search history. that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. so, you've got the power of xfinity at home. now take it outside with xfinity mobile. like speed? it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only $30 bucks a line per month. that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. no wonder xfinity mobile is one of the fastest growing mobile services. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. >> everything that president switch today at xfinitymobile.com trump did was while he was in office. as a president, he is now immune from prosecution for acts that he takes and connection with those policies. >> i'm back with paul butler, a law professor of georgetown law school and msnbc legal analyst. also joining us again is joyce vance, former attorney and professor at the university of alabama law school. you both teach law students. lets it go to a class on somebody rules that clip, paul butler, everything donald trump is on trial for his what he's doing while he was president the united states, so, he's immune from prosecution. your thoughts? >> that's not a defense to any of the charges that president trump, former president trump is charged with in this case. it's actually not a defense to any of the 78 charges in the jurisdictions around the country that he's facing right now. i think free speech concerns are actually one of the reasons that jack smith didn't charge incitement or sedition. arguably, trump's words to the insurrectionists, remember, he said, come to the rally, it's gonna be wild or fight like heck. i think those words might fall more into political speech, might be more ambiguous. there is nothing ambiguous about, i need you to find 11,780 votes in georgia because that's how much i lost the election by. >> joyce, your sense of this? because i think people struggle with this whole idea that is president you have certain immunity is that the rest of us don't have. so, if donald trump committed alleged crimes while he was president, what's john's argument there? what's the validity of it? >> well, i think you're exactly right about what he's doing. he is trying to confuse people. there is a legitimate executive privilege for deliberate decisions made inside of the executive branch, these deliberate decisions, policy making, and the official function of the president. it will come as no surprise to our viewers that trying to prevent people from voting and having their votes counted, trying to steal an election you've lost, it's not part of executive privilege. so, again, this is an effort by trump to confuse the public. this is really an extension of the big lie, when you get right down to it. trying to lead people to believe that what he did was okay when, in fact, once he gets into a court of law, the government will put on evidence that this was criminal conduct and the jury will have the opportunity to convict the former president. >> paul, i want to talk about a couple characters in these coconspirators, one is john eastman, one might argue the brains of the operation. he was the lawyer, wasn't the face of the operation, he was a lawyer who's writing memos and concocting some of these schemes, convincing donald trump of the viability of them. the other is jeffrey clark, a mid level guy, at the justice department, almost became the attorney general of this country because he was prepared to do the bidding, the stuff that eastman and trump and others had cooked up. does any of this give donald trump any defense that these guys came up with it, they told me, donald trump's seem to like doing this thing, someone told me, they told me, does that help? >> absolutely not. if john eastman is the brains of the operation, your operation is in big trouble. ali, jack smith anticipated this advice of counsel defense from all these lawyers. so, included in the indictment is all of these legitimate lawyers who told trump that the election was not stolen, that the big lie was, in fact, ally, including the acting attorney general, the acting deputy attorney general and the white house counsel. >> joyce, let's talk a little bit about the judge. donald trump has been posting a lot this week, including this morning, about the judge, once the judge to recuse herself. the judge has overseen a number of cases relating to people charged for the january 6th and has expressed a view on. it often sentences in a way that is higher than what has been asked for. what is your sense of what impact little have on this case? >> so, i think that while she has expressed her views in the sense that she is ruled in cases that have come in front of her, like every judge is obligated to do, she hasn't done anything that suggests she needs to recuse. there is no suggestion that she's, you know, got her finger on the scale for a one party or the other. in fact, he's a former federal defender, she is known for being very persistent about protecting the rights of criminal defendants. while she has sentenced and some of the january 6th cases with more of a heavy hand than other judges, she has not been reversed for issuing those sentences. she is not engaged in some form of conduct that's unreasonable. look, every judge gets on the bench, every federal judge, they're appointed by a president from one party or the other. that doesn't mean that they're biased. there's no indication that she has a personal bias, that she has some sort of professional conflict or that she is any sort of financial interest in the outcome of the case. absent that sort of conduct, she's a fair judge. let's compare just really quickly, aileen cannon, the judge in florida. the argument that she should be recused in that case is that she weighed and so heavily for trump with no basis when he engaged in this bizarre and run designed to interfere with the government search warrant that the 11th circuit, a very conservative circuit had to say, you are out of bounds, stood, you have no basis for that ruling. that leads people concerned about the appearance of impropriety as she handles that case. it looks, at least, for now, as though she will. and if she is not recused, there's certainly no case to recuse judge chutkan. even if judge cannon or to be recused, or were to step aside down the road, judge chutkan summit late doesn't exude that appearance of impropriety. this is a fair reason judge. >> you too are so wonderful. i wish this conversation could continue. my time is up. thanks to both of you. former federal prosecutor, paul butler, msnbc legal analyst, and joyce vance, former united states attorney and msnbc contributor. that does it for, many thanks for watching. stay right where you are, inside with jen psaki begins right now. >> despite having lost, the defendant was determined to remain in power. jack smith's words, not mine. donald trump was indicted again this week. this time, for a scheme to overthrow a democratic election. already issuing threats that are getting the special counsel's attention. former white house chief of stance, ryan, standing by with his first public comments about all of it. he's coming up first. th

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