says that the president has the first amendment right to speech. >> yes. >> even the first amendment right to lie. >> absolutely. >> this indictment is criminalizing conduct not speech. >> it's criminalizing speech. >> why the randomly incised judge is bad news for the defendant. the complicated calendar of republican front runner facing three criminal trials and congressman jamie raskin on jack smith's decision to charge civil rights law used to prosecute kkk violence. >> check out detroit. check out -- >> when all in starts, right now. >> good in a few new york. i'm chris hayes. for the third time in four months, donald trump will be arrested and arraigned tomorrow. and a federal courthouse in washington, d.c.. he's got to be getting used to it by now. he will stand for a federal magistrate judge. he will enter a plea as he has done in the last two cases. in this new criminal case laid out against him for attempting to steal the 2020 election. tomorrow he will be returning to the scene of that crime, as laid out in the detailed and sprawling 45 deed indictment that special counsel jack smith. he's charged for a felony felony counts, conspiracy to file united states, count to conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, count three, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct official proceeding, and count four, a conspiracy against rights. that's a reconstruction law prosecutors used her to charge the ex president for a willfully seeking to disenfranchise voters. he is charged along six unindicted and named coconspirators, five of which are believed to be attorneys who helped, according to prosecutors, carry out trump's criminal scheme to stay in power. federal prosecutors say trump orchestrated that scheme, quote, by using dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to impaired, distract, and defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the presidential election are collected, counted, and certified. of course in the world we live in today there is a whole machinery that exists solely to defend donald trump, that is its reason for being. and the folks that do that, day and night, day after day, they are just gonna throw whatever defense they can, even if those defenses are inconsistent or in tension with each other. the ex president is facing a serious trial. he's arguably the most consequential of a lifetime. but he will, as it is right, mountain actual defense, not the nonsense being spewed on social media or on propaganda outlets, but an actual defense on the court of law under the rules of evidence before a jury of his peers, who will ascertain whether or not he committed these crimes beyond a reasonable turnout doubt standard. and there are defenses to be mounted in any criminal case. if it goes to trial, if a defendant doesn't plea, it must be mounted. that's how the system works. one of the defense is clearly that previewing is that they were going to argue in court is a freedom of speech defense. here is how that defense played out this morning, right here on today. >> it's the first time in a sitting president is attacking a political opponent on first amendment grounds and making it criminal to state your position and to engage in political -- >> gonna give you a timeout on that one. >> we see that. before >> well, the indictment specifically says that the president has the first amendment right to speech he. he even has the first amendment right to lie. >> absolutely. >> this indictment is criminalizing conduct, not speech. >> no, it's criminalizing speak for this reason. the 2020 election there were all these irregularities going. on he had every right comment on that annex politically. in a criminal case, that what they would have to show is that all that speech was -- >> we're not talking about beach. >> in the after of course the point is important goodwin, they really are all kinds of conduct that might be reprehensible, bad, morally wrong, even insidious, that is not criminal. it is particularly true with regards to speech, because speech is protected by the first amendment, importantly sal. but this is not one of those cases. in fact, as she pointed, out none other than jack smith himself makes that point on page two of the indictment. quote, the defendant had a right like every american, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome determinative fraud during the election and that he won. and one of the things, really indictment today, that it does so well is, smith and the lawyers that wrote this, really seek to clearly delineate when things move from protected speech, political advocacy, hardball politics, to a criminal conspiracy as laid out in the fact contained in the indictment. nothing is more squarely in that latter character gory than the fake electors plot. i have been buried in the details, like many of you have, of january 6th, lead up, the aftermath, in this indictment contains the most detailed revelations about that specific conspiracy. the fake electors conspiracy is a plot we have seen in state after say, seven total, and the facts aren't in dispute. some of them are publicly broadcasted in realtime at the time. but crucially, to go back to the defense, the president's lawyer, ex president's lawyer is trying to mount, they basically have nothing to do a speech because all of this was kind of done behind the scenes. in some instances, i would in the wide open. but what is described in the fake electors scheme crucially's conduct, actions. jack smith sums it up simply in the tail of the name of the details the plot. here it is, quote. trump's use of dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to organize fraudulent state slate of electors and caused them to translate false whatever gets to congress, the organized in that that caused them to do it, that's conduct, that's behavior. those are actions taken in the world. it's not blah blah blah. the conduct is trump in his coconspirators reaching out to people, getting them to meet by a certain date, organizing, them congregating, them persuading them to sign fraudulently, to swear under oath, and to assess to the government that they are the rightful electors in states where they were not, which all parties knew they were not. and then to submit those fraudulent documents violated his government as if they were real, we know they did all that. that's a matter of record. and it is all just textbook fried. and it's all conduct. it's not speech. in jack smith's really detailed here. the most interesting part is a part where smith's office traces exactly the line where this fake electors plot goes from morally questionable but defensible legally to indefensibly criminal. he lays it out in detail. i quote him here. the plan, this is the fake electors planned, capitalized on ideas presented in memorandum drafted by coconspirator 5, who is believed to be canneries ally kenneth cheseboro. the memorandum evolved over time from a legal strategy to preserve the defendants rights to a corrupt plan to subvert the federal government function by stopping biden electors votes from being counted and certified. the first version of the memo, called the wisconsin memo, quote, advocated that, because of the ongoing recount of trump in wisconsin, trump electors there should meet and cast votes on december 1st to preserve the alternative of trump's electors laid in the event trump ultimately prevailed in the state. and what jack smith is saying here is, that's illegal activity. the idea of being, there's a safe harbor, we have to have electors by, in the no standing recount, we don't want to miss the safe harbor deadline, so if we have these electors meet, they are their free prevail in the recount. so jack smith says that memo, that's lawyering. that's advocacy. villiers the second memo called the fraudulent elector -- and hear jack smith says, it marked a sharp departure from's wisconsin memo, saying that they be used to is fraudulent electors to prevent biden from receiving the 270 electoral votes necessary to secure the presidency on january sacks. so smith is now describing what crosses over into a fraudulent scheme. the election fraud lawsuits. they now become contextual. the whole point isn't to preserve the possibility of your electors if you win in court or if you win in recounts. no, they realize they have lost those. the whole point now is to just defraud the government, to produce a fraudulent set of electors, to propose to the vice president so that he convinced he'll be election. and if you think i am coloring the case by calling the electors the fake electors plot, fraudulent, the federal prosecutor describe an email from an unnamed arizona -- who had been briefed on this plan. he had a conversation with coconspirator 5, who we think could be trump attorney and ally kenneth cheseboro. in it we think cheseboro walks him through the plan. the corrupt plan. it was ultimately executed in arizona. here's how that attorney, who just got briefed on the phone, describe the plot. kind of wild, creative, i'm happy to discuss. my comment too cheseboro is i guess there's no harm in it, legally, at least. >> i don't that's great judgment. >> we would just be sending in fake electoral voters to pence so that quote someone in congress can make an objection when they start counting votes and start arguing that the fake votes should be counted. fake electors in quotes there. the fake vote should be counted by a lawyer briefed on the plan. memorialized in an email. is that speech? the truth of the matter is, in the defense the ex presidents trying to mount, speech maybe in for the rest of the conspiracy. but fundamentally the conspiracy's conduct. in this one section of the damning indictment, you have something that just can't have had any purpose other than to be fraudulent. there is no defensible first amendment law where you can say well, they were just speaking. no, they were clearly not. they did something. they swore to something that was false, and then try to get the false statement entered as true. they tried to defraud the government. the facts are not in dispute. it was plainly a crime. it has been not one to all of us in an intuitive world stance, not new technical way, but we know this was wrong and violated something deep and profound. and there are other parts of the night monthly deal with the lies that trump used, and how he views those lies in the furtherance of conspiracy. but when smith and his team regularly lay out is that this was a crime. it was a vast criminal conspiracy, a multi pronged effort to stay in power, to steal the election, which culminated in the january six attempted coup, and now sets up, in the words of legal scholar rick hassan, the most important case in our nation's history. we catherine is professor of law in political science. you can read that piece on the importance of the trial in slate.com. danya perry is a former deputy attorney general, yesterday's office southern district of new york, and they both join me now. rick, that headline really grabbed me after day, and i really like the piece. why do you think this is the most important trial in the nation's history? >> unlike the other claims against trump so classified documents in the hush money, they don't go to our democracy itself. and might be terrible to lead a national secret, but it's not the same thing as trying to subvert an election. and really, as i argue in the piece, trump has not been held accountable anywhere. he was not convicted in the senate. there's been no civil civil liability. this is the only chance to hold him liable for trying to essentially end american democracy. if he can get away with this without even trying to put him on trial, any future candidate who might look for extra legal means to try to turn himself from election loser to an election winner. >> i said this before, but the u.s. is not the only country in the world. there are many countries that have been experiences with different forms of government. and there have been attempted coups in countries that were democracies. and generally, when you try to do a cool, it's sort of a -- situation. you succeeded you become the person in power, or you don't succeed and you end up in prison or worse. it's a very weird situation to try a coup, fail, and then hang out on the golf course for two years. it's not usually the way that it goes in other places. it's generally understood that this is criminal. and danya, you have worked on looking at a model prosecution and thinking about how the facts as revealed to the 800 plus-page report fifth with u.s. criminal code. and i'm curious what you think of the decisions made here by smith and what the charges are and how strong the cases. >> i think it's strong. it's fairly, as you just explained, it is laid out in a pretty simple format, easily understandable, digestible bets. the way it's organized, i think, and state by state, or as you said, kind of a sequence, the chronology, the story of the evolution of the false electors slates scheme. it's all readily understandable. i think it's very carefully crafted and just to go to the point that you were just raising, in terms of this question of defense of, quote, unquote, free speech, one has to only look at the statute in the elements for approving a conspiracy to defraud the united states. the elements are simple. there has to be a scheme to commit something unlawful. there has to be criminal intent. and there has to be over act over to act in furtherance of the skin. so a bunch of people sitting around in a basement, state house, plotting to submit a false electoral slate, that's not a crime. doing anything in furtherance of it, and there's paragraph after paragraph, of the overt acts done in furtherance, is what takes us from something which could lie in the realm of first amendment speech to the realm of criminal conspiracy that is actionable, and we'll see what a jury says, but perhaps we'll actually and in criminal conviction. >> let's talk about criminal intent, one of the most important aspects of this, and it clear that i think there's three prongs to the defense. criminalizing speech in front of conduct, he was relying on his lawyer's advice. and then this third one having to do with intent. i'll read here today from his lawyer saying i would like them to try to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that donald trump believed that these allegations were false. basically, rick, the notion that he is so, that he is essentially clinically deluded about the reality of the matter, despite the repeated evidence presented to him time and time again, said in the indictment. that clinical delusion means he is incapable of forming criminal intent. what do you think about that? >> i think that's a really weak argument. besides the fact that there's good reason to believe that he didn't actually think that he won the election. imagine if he said to mike pence, i'm going to break your legs and hurt your family if you don't throw out the electoral votes from wisconsin, even if trump believed that he had won the election, that would still be a crime. he'd be using words that wouldn't be protected by the four first amendment. so it's besides the point what he secretly believed or publicly says about whether the election was stolen. it doesn't give him the right to engage in criminal conduct. that's what this indictment alleges. >> what do you think, danya? >> i completely agree with rick. that's not a defense. first of all, there is, of course, reams of evidence that show that everyone critical around him was saying there was no fraud, and the former president himself said things to that effect. but here exactly it's not. it's not a true defense. the question is not so much did he believe the election was truly stolen, but what act, further to your point, did he take, did he and his coconspirators take, regardless of his subjective state of mind? did he believe that these electors that submitted the certificates to congress, were they the true electors, or did they go to a basement somewhere and say they were in the state house. there are so many questions like that. >> an important point. not did he think it was stolen from him, but did the electors scheme, did they believe the electors were what they said they were, the rightful electors. and that, i think, is a tougher case to make. rick hasen, danya perry, thanks so much for your time. coming up, his investigation laid the foundation for upcoming court battle. congressman jamie raskin and joins me to talk about what this means for the. country and but how do you coordinate three trials and county around a presidential campaign. we're gonna go down that path. nna go down that path. meet the team... behind the team. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. it can stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. having triplets is... -amazing -expensive. so, we switched to the bargain detergent, but we ended up using three times as much and the clothes still weren't as clean as with tide. so we're back with tide, and the clothes are clean again. do 3x the laundry and get a tide clean. it's got to be tide. (dad) we got our subaru forester wilderness do 3x the laundry to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. (vo) subaru is the national park foundation's largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. want luxury hair repair that doesn't cost $50? pantene's pro-vitamin formula repairs hair. as well as the leading luxury bonding treatment. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. if you know... you know it's pantene. sleepovers just aren't what they used to be. for softness and resilience, a house full of screens? basically no hiccups? you guys have no idea how good you've got it. how old are you? like, 80? back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. we don't get scared. oh, really? mom can see your search history. that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. bridgett is here. she has no clue that i'm here. she has no clue who's in the helmet. are you ready? -i'm ready! alright. xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, >> from running for the and once-in-a-lifetime. republican nomination now faces 78 felony counts in three different jurisdictions. it makes for difficult calendar as you see here. political dates are noted in blue, the legal dates were in red. starting tomorrow, his third arrest and arraignment for election fraud. also an indictment watching georgia this month, ahead of the first republican presidential debate, just three weeks from debate today. in january a civil trial scheduled for e. jean carroll's latest defamation suit, the same day as the iowa caucus. tuesday a trial for hush money payments in new york is currently scheduled. may as the trial date for the classified documents case of florida. ahead of the republican national convention in july, and soon the trial have to be scheduled for the new indictment in washington, d.c., which jacks mitt hopes to have robert wrapped up before the election in november. the defendant, on trump, for criminal trials, we'll have to be at all criminal trials. there's only one of them. how exactly is that gonna work? harry litman's former u.s. attorney for the western district of pennsylvania, and former deputy assistant legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. nearly insurmountable odds at trial. catherine christian is a former prosecutor in the manhattan district attorney's office, and both join me now. great to have you here. first, let's just talk about, i'll start with you catherine, in your time have you ever seen the defendant have three different trials in three different jurisdictions the same time? >> you can't try them simultaneously, but actually there are defendants who had multiple indictments and unfortunately it happens all the time. usually with violent offenders. and what usually happens, they will try one, get convicted, then plead for the others, or a plea for all of them. clearly that's not gonna happen in this case. >> so right, if someone goes up and down the east coast assaulting people, or killing them, or something like that. >> or through new york in different counties in new york. >> and different counties. sure. generally the way that plays out is, one of those goes first, and there's a trial. >> usually the most serious. one >> the most serious one. >> or the federal one. >> yes. and if that is secured, then -- >> they all fold. >> or if it's acquitted, it's also the other way. and when this, once let me try that. one but if there's a conviction on one, particularly the federal, and the more serious state one, they all fall. >> so now let's talk about, so let's if you have different jurisdictions. so now we've got different jurisdictions in the federal system, two different jurisdictions, and then a state case in new york. what is the interplay between the federal primacy and state primacy, and then between the two federal jurisdictions? >> normally done informally and an interesting aspect of what's going on. jack smith is playing very close to his vast. as is fani willis. so we don't know. but i think here's how it's gonna work. i think fani willis has suggested that she's giving him some birth. she's not gonna go to the end of the month. alvin bragg has done the same thing, and i think obviously jack smith wants to bring this one before. so as a practical matter, and it's otherwise a logistical big challenge, i think we're going to see this case built for speed happening first. >> why, though? >> because that's -- >> you think smith preference anything the local prosecutors in alvin bragg and fani willis, if, they will defer their schedule. >> alvin bragg has said. that will be up to the judge. but we know the judge will probably do so as well. >> so you've got all prosecutors office is saying hey, you guys prioritize your trial. and you think smith wants this before documents? >> no doubt. and the number one aspect of this indictment, to me, the caption. usa versus donald trump. seven defendants here, seven times the challenges. this one is built for speed. >> no classified documents issues. a lot of witnesses, but it's going to be, i wouldn't say straightforward, but you don't have all of those issues with classified documents. >> and not as much pre trial. >> exactly. >> so you see the reason it's built for speed because it one defendant, no classified issues. on the other hand -- >> d.c. could judge. >> that is where we -- >> unless -- the gets changed. >> it's a lawyer saying he wants to move the trial. the constitution of the united states, if i'm not mistaken, i think it's the sixth amendment rights is that you have you're entitled to a trial of your peers in the venue where the crime was committed. >> totally. >> people forget that part, it's very important. and all you need, of course, it 12 poorest persons good into true. it is a matter of 98 voted against him. >> i don't think you can argue for a venue change because people voted -- >> he will argue. that >> he will. >> but so let's say, you guys seem to be in agreement, this is the one that is built to go first. okay. let's stipulate that. what's a reasonable, catherine, do you think a reasonable time for it? >> this is interesting. we're saying this one should go first. i wonder if judge cannon will agree to that, because she has this date in may. but i would say if judge cannon agrees, it's in may. it's enough. time >> use the may trial great. regulates down march, and if cannon were to defer -- >> there's no way in the world this case if it starts in april will be over by may. i would say it will be may, that would be the request. but we'll find out what the request is. the defense is fighting this. >> but by the time this really comes up, and by the way, i don't think that caplan is going to move the e. jean carroll case, and that's going to be a really rough one for trump. >> but he doesn't have to be there. . >> but in any event, by then things will have moved with the mar-a-lago case, i think. it will be that kind of free birth for this one. >> you think that by then, the mar-a-lago has already slipped off? i guess the question is, okay, using -- we should do this, it's important that they should be tried. i think it's important for all trump parties to be tried. then it's a question where it comes to how much they can delay and how much can they delay it? is it the circuit, the supreme court, if they expedite the review of this decision by judge -- makes. >> you can't appeal every decision. there are only certain appeals, either side, and so the judge determines when the case goes to trial. clearly if the judges off of her rocker, which this one isn't, things happen. she has a reputation for moving cases along. clearly, this is the biggest case ever in the united states history. i don't think that she is going to be moved because of that. obviously they are in titled to make motions. they have to have enough time to try the case. i don't think that this judge will allow for unnecessary limitless delay. >> and what she said very quickly, if it goes to the court of appeals, and i don't think that they have much spaces for doing it. this is a court of appeals in contrast to the other circuit that knows the high jinx very quickly. >> all right, catherine, christian, thank you very much. we learn something there. still ahead, about that judge we were just mentioning. she is about to have the world's most famous defendant in the courtroom, who is judge tanya chutkan and what we can expect from her, next. rom her, next. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your healthcare provider. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache. no matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. talk to your healthcare provider today. that's me before dawn powerwash. soaking, scrubbing...that's life. was life. now, powerwash gives me the power of an overnight soak in minutes. i'm sorry, minutes? with 3 cleaning boosters... not found in traditional dish soaps that help break down, loosen and lift away food and grease... so much faster! tougher mess? let the suds sit a few minutes before wiping. even cleans... the grill! thank you! i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. this tiny payment thing- ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie is a giant pain! hi ladies! alex from u.s. bank! can she help? how about a comprehensive point of sale system... that can track inventory, manage schedules- and customize orders? that's what u.s. bank business essentials is for. (oven explosion) >> the federal court system, what about a new oven, can u.s. bank help us there? we can serve loans in as fast as 12 minutes. that would be a big help! huge! jumbo! ginormous! woo! -woo! finding ways to make your business boom. that's what u.s. bank is for. the judge you get in the case is much less random outside of right wing abortion groups finding seats in jurisdictions to that judge. that aside, in florida donald trump randomly drew a judge it happens to have been appointed, and given a wildly favorable ruling that was then overturned by the appeals court above her. in a new case in washington, d.c. is, it's a far different story. a judge more experienced then aileen cannon, chutkan, a public defender. and two questions -- including whether to reject trump's bid to keep papers related to january 6th away from the january 6th committee. that ruling, saying in which she wrote for the government. she said presidents are not kings, on the plaintiffs not president. chutkan as also overseen cases against 30 january 6th defendants, heading out -- a man convicted of assaulting police officers. it has to be clear, judge chutkan said, trying to violently overthrow the government, stop the peaceful transition of power, assaulting law enforcement officers in that effort is going to be met with absolutely certain punishment. nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly has been just covering the january 6th trial since they got into action. other of the upcoming, sedition hunters, haugen your sixth roast -- it is a fantastic piece of work. and ryan joins me now. ryan, how would you describe judge chutkan? both a reputation, and what you've seen in person. >> it's been really interesting to see how she's handled these cases overall. she isn't always sentenced people to the government request. she has done a pretty frequently. there are a number of cases are g undercutting. that is one of particularly young defended. let's she said that because of the age, there was what she would factor. and she's basically said that the certainty of punishment is very important. the studies kind of bear that out. a couple of these cases where prosecutors have said that home detention was fine here, she said, no there needs to be a little bit of skin in the game. you have to do some time. it wasn't as though she was sending them from extraordinary sentences, but definitely some period of incarceration she emphasizes is really nothing necessary. one case remember that stood out to me, she was saying that i think, quote, it was important that this individual went there not because of their love for country were supportive democracy, but because of quote, one man. not of course, mentioning how the man was specifically, but you can figure that one out who she speaking about. >> and she also, just in sort of a -- in terms of her career, judge cannon isn't overseeing a lot of criminal trials. in fact, had not had a chance of trial experiences a judge. managing as a judge is really challenging, technically speaking. it seems like judge chutkan has already managed a ton of this. it's something that she seems to have been doing for nearly a decade. >> she has. one of the most interesting things, and i've seen her do this in numerous cases, compare and contrast the normal cases she handled regularly. people who have very few advantages in life, and how severe this advantages in life. just contrast it that with some of the privileges of the individuals who stormed the capitol. that is definitely a theme that they head on before, saying that a lot of these people that she saw it in regular life, in fact that she represented as a public defender, had a more rough go than some of these individuals who stormed the capitol, and really just pointing that out. saying that, you know, justice has to be handed out equally. it was important to send that message given the unprecedented nature of what happened on january 6th. >> you are tweeting today about some of the sentences she's handed out, and she has handed out some of the longest sentences. she had the record for a while of the top two sentences, mike ponder getting 32 months in federal prison, three months over what the doj requested. and roberts, got the longest january 6th sentence. i guess my question is, what is your confidence in her ability to manage this? you know, given the record she has, given what you've seen of her in the courtroom. >> i think she's doing a great job of handling, it overall, my immediate reaction was, gosh, it is not a question of whether we will see those attacks, we've already seen how many there are in reaction to the january 6th cases regularly. any case she had handled, and could be racist black lash. multiply that by multitudes, that's what we're going to have in this case. whether the marshals are going to have to set up security for her. it's just having that case come to you. it's really going to be quite extraordinary. >> it's an unfortunate reality that my first thought when i saw that she was the judge was about that, and was about the security situation and burden that she will be bearing because of what it means to be the target rhetorically of donald trump. ryan riley, thank you very much. still to come, the january 6th committee introducing the world to donald trump's undemocratic scheme. congressman jamie raskin on the specific importance of the third trump indictment. a little history lesson on, ahead. son on ahead. focusing on a little blue-sky thinking. i'll be taking meetings... with family and friends. and checking voicemail... as my activities permit. i'll connect with you... after reconnecting with me. ♪♪ get 1.9% apr for 36 months plus $1,500 purchase allowance on a 2024 xt5 and xt6 when you finance through cadillac financial. ♪♪ ya know, if you were cashbacking you could earn on everything with just one card. chase freedom unlimited. so, if you're off the racking... ...or crab cracking, you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. i have active psoriatic arthritis. how do you cashback? but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm feeling this moment. along with clearer skin skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement-and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today. learn how abbvie could help you save. want luxury hair repair that doesn't cost $50? pantene's pro-vitamin formula repairs hair. as well as the leading luxury bonding treatment. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. if you know... you know it's pantene. i'm jayson. i'm living with hiv and i'm on cabenuva. it helps keep me undetectable. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva is two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's really nice not to have to rush home and take a daily hiv pill. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or if you taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. ready to treat your hiv in a different way? ask your doctor about every-other-month cabenuva. every other month, and i'm good to go. i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ >> in the final words of the 45-page criminal indictment of donald trump, prosecutor jack smith and the document with the fourth charge against the ex president, conspiracy against rights. quote, defending donald j trump len and find, conspire, confederate, and agree with coconspirators known and unknown to the grand jury to injure the, press threaten and intimidate more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of a right and privilege secured to them by the constitution and laws of the united states. that is the right to vote and to have one's vote count. donald trump is the first president to be charged with section 2:41 of the 18 u.s. code. he's far from the first person charged with it. the section number probably doesn't mean much to anyone, but it is from the first series of reconstruction era acts, known as the ku klux klan acts. it's one of the first charges brought under this law, over 100 years ago against two elections board officials in blaine county, oklahoma. the men were part of a three person board, and during the 1912 election, they engaged a conspiracy that, quote left out of their official canvas all of the votes from 11 precincts where they grandfather clause, a jim crow era law to disenfranchise black citizens hadn't been zealously in force. the result was to drop some 1200 votes, mainly cast by black and native citizens. the conspiracy led to a narrow loss by a house candidate that should've rightfully one. the law has been used to punish all kinds of intimidation since then, according to the washington post, including to prosecute members of the kkk that carried out the 1964 freedom summer murders as well is the 99 -- who oversaw the burning of a cross in the front yard of a puerto rican man and his mexican wife. there's even people waiting to be statute this fall. back in march, a trump supporter named douglas mackie was convicted of using twitter to disappearance -- disenfranchise voters in the 2016 election with the help of russian troll farm's. spreading misinformation about voting, posting tweets like this one targeting people of color who supported hillary clinton falsely claiming they could vote by text message. he's waiting for sentencing. the circumstance that we find ourselves in today with the next president joining that list of people charged under 18 usc section 2:40, one on the one hand unprecedented, and the defendants level of power. the breadth of the offense, and on the other hand, firmly rooted in the ugliest and oldest american tradition. the opposition, by any means necessary with the promise of full multiracial democratic equality. equality (dad) we got our subaru forester wilderness to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. (vo) subaru is the national park foundation's largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. ugh, this guy again... pops! ay son! ya got a little somethin' on yuh face. needed a quick shave. quick shave? respect the process! it ain't my dad's razor, dad, it's from gillettelabs. gillette...labs? gillette's ultimate shaving experience. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face. gamechanga! while the flexdisc contours to it. lookin' smooth. feelin' even smoother. how 'bout hookin' me up with some gillettelabs? check your texts. you're the best. nah, you're the best. the best a man can get keeps getting bettuh. the next generation of shaving is gillettelabs. imagine you're doing something you love. rsv could cut it short. ♪ rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations... ...in adults 60 and older... ...and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. talk to your doctor and visit cutshortrsv.com. meet the future. a chef. a designer. and, ooh, an engineer. all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins. uh no plaid. while mom is eyeing his spending. nice. and the engineer? she's taking control with her own account for college. three futures, all with chase. freedom for kids. control for parents. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. >> much of the foundation of the third criminal indictment against donald trump comes from the extensive painstaking work of the january 6th committee. the partisan panel was formed in the summer of 2021, spending nearly 18 months investigating the insurrection, the plot to steal the 2020 election. the committee presented its findings in ten public hearings last year, in december, releasing an extensive 845-page report which gave prosecutors a roadmap to continue chasing leads in calling witnesses. maryland democratic congressman jamie raskin served on the select committee as a professor of constitutional law. he joins us now. it's good to have, you congressman. let me ask you to -- again, how you conceive of the relationship between the committee's work and the department of justice in jack smith's indictment. >> we created with a legislative oversight committee, a factual reconstruction of the events leading up to the january 6th, and a description of donald trump's multi-pronged assault on american constitutional democracy and attempt to overthrow the election. that factual framework with the referral of four criminal charges that we synthesized down to, that became the basis, at least theoretically for the beginning of their work. i know that a lot of it had started before that, but i think that it did help to structure their investigation and they're thinking about it. at the very least, prepared all of the americans for what was to come, because a lot of the time it's lapsed between now and january 6th, 2021. that period could've been filled up with a lot of propaganda, disinformation by forces. we told the story that penetrated the national consciousness. i think it got people ready for these very dramatic charges, which are completely fitting for donald trump's crimes. >> you are somebody who are a constitutional scholar. i think that you think a lot about the nation's second founding, the reconstruction era amendments, the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. and the lies associated with that time. and they've cited lincoln particularly a bit and his thoughts about the insurrection, because that's what he was facing. were you surprised, what was your reaction to seeing one of the indictments as a conspiracy to deny americans rights under those reconstruction laws? >> it was thrilling. that count goes right to the heart of what was actually taking place. lincoln said it best. he said that an insurrection is fundamentally an assault on the very first principle of democratic government, which is that the people get to choose their own leaders. there are lots of ways to steal an election. you can steal it with literacy tests, poll taxes, grandfather clauses. or by stealing the ballot boxes, throwing peoples ballots away or engaging in all of those different kinds of shenanigans that donald trump did leading up to january 6th. there are people that have gone to jail for that, and it's shocking to me that they think somehow they have a free speech right to engage in a very violent insurrection or political coup against american constitutional process. >> one of the criticisms that was levied against your committee was that it was insufficiently adversarial, and i will say that that is just because kevin mccarthy just decided not to appoint members when and see pelosi rejected a few of the original proposed members. he just kind of took his ball and went home. instead, there were other republicans appointed. adam kinzinger and liz cheney quite famously. this will be an adversarial process, do you think that that is good? how do you conceive of the import of this trial, and also the president mounting a defense? >> of course, all of this is within the american rule of law. our system of justice. donald trump starts off with the presumption of innocence. he has every right to due process. he's got a judge, judge chutkan who was herself a public defender and a criminal defense lawyer who is extremely attentive to the rights of criminal defendants, and also understands that our constitution has at least six different provisions that explicitly oppose insurrection, and attempts to overthrow our government. she's the perfect judge for this case. this is where the case ultimately belongs. we played a very important purpose in terms of public education about what happened to us. it takes a village, a nationwide village to deal with an attack like what we saw on january 6th. >> do you think the average voter, american understands how close it all came? ? i do think that there is a little bit of -- even though people don't like donald trump, he's a ridiculous figure, but just the narrowness of the margin by which the american constitutional republic was preserved. do you think that people understand it? >> if mike pence had caved into all of the pressure, and decided to step outside of his constitutional role and proclaim donald trump to be the new president or unilaterally nullify the electoral college votes as trump and his people were egging him on to do. that would've changed everything. if half of the police force had just walked off in despair, which they didn't, they were bloodied and wounded. they fought until the very end, it would've changed everything. we came extremely close. as close as we should ever come in our lifetimes. >> congressman jamie raskin, a pleasure. thank, you sir. all in on this wednesday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. alex wagner to>> have a great s. thanks for joining us at this hour. here's something to keep in mind against yesterday's former indictment of the president trump. it is a huge national, even global scurry. one of the biggest news events of our time, of any time. it is very much a local news story. here's the atlanta