>> good evening from washington. i am mehdi hasan in for chris hayes. donald trump could end up behind bars next year for conspiracy to obstruct justice. and if he does, it may very well be because of a new testimony by someone identified by the justice department, only as trump employee 4. now that we have had all weekend to digest the new superseding indictment for donald trump from doj special counsel jack smith and the classified documents case, employee number four's involvement seems particularly notable. according to the indictment, he played a key role in what appears to be a pressure campaign from trump and his co defendant, valet walt nauta and mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira, to delete security footage from the club after it was subpoenaed by prosecutors. and now, it sure seems like employee 4 could be talking, it turns out, he is an i. t. worker for mar-a-lago named yuscil taveras. according to one new report, taveras himself received a target letter from the department of justice after trump was first indicted in florida. but taveras himself has not yet been indicted, and to be clear, as of now, we do not know if taveras is formally cooperating with jack smith's office. that said, as the washington post reports, quote, taveras offered information implicating all three defendants in an alleged conspiracy to cover up evidence. and we also know that following trump's indictment, taveras switched lawyers. he was previously represented by the same lawyer representing trump's codefendant, walt nauta. as the post reports, quote, once taveras's position puts him potentially at odds with nauta, a judge reviewed the issue. a second lawyer not paid by trump's pac was brought in to provide legal advice to taveras, and then spoke to investigators. as my msnbc colleague katie phang emphasizes, it was only after taveras switched lawyers that he agreed to speak with investigators who wanted to know about the conversations he had about the apparent block to delete security footage. as the new york times reports, quote, at trial, taveras testimony could be crucial for smith's prosecutors in establishing a conspiracy to try to erase the tapes, and this obstruct the investigation. closed-door testimony from taveras is presumably how we know about certain damning conversations from the superseding indictment, like this exchange between him and de oliveira, quote, de oliveira told taveras that the boss wanted the server deleted, and quote, de oliveira insisted to taveras that the boss wanted the server deleted, and ask, what are we going to do? and i must ask -- is this random i. t. guy the smartest person to ever work for donald trump? because he seems to have seen the writing on the wall, unlike others. he got a new lawyer, unlike others. even his donald trump super pac is reportedly spending tens of millions of dollars on legal fees for the ex president and his various associates in trouble with the law. and while we do not know if taveras is actually cooperating, and if so to what extent, as it stands right now, it does not look like he is going to be indicted, despite receiving that target letter. now, there are still some unanswered questions here. taveras is still working at mar-a-lago, and we don't know who is paying his current legal fees. but that aside, he may very well be one of the first people in trump's orbit to break the trend and decide, it's not worth taking the fall in some form or other, for the donald, like so many bizarrely and done before him. >> president trump's former national security adviser michael flynn has just pleaded guilty to a charge of lying to the fbi. >> in washington, d. c. courtroom today, george papadopoulos became the first trump campaign aide to be sent to jail as part of robert mueller's russia probe. his former personal attorney, michael cohen, who was sentenced to three years in prison -- >> the man who helped get donald trump into the white house now faces almost seven years in prison. >> the president's longtime friend and former campaign adviser, roger stone, found guilty today of all charges stemming from the russia investigation. >> mr. trump's longtime advisor steve bannon was today sentenced to four months in prison on misdemeanor contempt of congress charges. >> trump's most recent codefendant, carlos de oliveira, should think about those who came before him. today, he appeared in court for the first time, following his indictment, and soon, he could be adding his name to that growing list of trump allies who went to prison. unless he decides to be one of the smart ones, like taveras very well might be, or perhaps like trump's white house chief of staff mark meadows, who was widely speculated to be cooperating with prosecutors to save his own, and the other jack smith case, the january 6th case, where we can also see an indictment imminently. so, maybe trump's lackeys are finally, finally starting to rise up, maybe, and realize it's not worth risking prison time for a man who would not cross the street to save their lives. in fact, and other telling bits of reporting from nbc news today, one close trump era ally reacted to de oliveira's indictment by responding, quote, who the hell is that? nice. barbara mcquade is a former u. s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan where she once brought significant seditious conspiracy charges against a group. dick gregorie works for the u.s. attorney's office for the southern district of florida where he successfully prosecuted some of miami's most high-profile defendants. both join me now. barbara, what is your take on this. do you get the impression that taveras is a cooperating witness at this point? >> yes, i do. and, you know, well operation is a bit of a turn of art when it comes to criminal law. i think we often think of it as someone who has worked out a plea deal and has agreed to cooperate. it does not appear, to me, that mr. taveras has criminal exposure, that he did everything right. he rejected the request to delete the server. and it appears he is the source of this information that now gears in this indictment. so, it seems to me that he is a witness and not a defendant here, and is likely the person who will testify at trial about these incidents. >> dick, what do you make of the fact that de oliveira in florida today in court, did not enter a plea? and how much do you think prosecutors are hoping to flip someone like de oliveira at some point? >> i think today was another delay mechanism. it is almost i'm using to think that he brought a lawyer with him all the way from washington, d. c.. but in the southern district of florida, which is one of the most heavy criminal districts in the united states, a man was unable to find a lawyer within a week. this is just almost a musing. but it is also a kind of sad because mr. de oliveira is in a very difficult position. i would hope one of the first motions that he and nauta would file would be a motion for severance. if you had a real serious attorney, defense attorney, i would assume that they would say, my client is not involved in the hiding of national secrets. they are accused of obstruction of justice, and they shouldn't have to be tried with donald trump. but right now, it doesn't appear that that is the road that they are taking. >> and, barb, there's some reasonable skepticism that trump -- but his codefendants don't have the same privilege of being a former prisoner for nauta, for de oliveira, the threat is quite real for them, is it not? >> it absolutely is. one thing is very interesting, i think all three of these men are facing criminal exposure and years in prison. but what is different about donald trump as a secret service protectee, i think he's got a pretty good argument about why his sentence should be served in home confinement, or some other way, other than going to a penal institution the way most people do, which is, i think, too objectionable for the secret service to have their protectee in that environment. and so, while donald trump may be able to escape incarceration, i don't see the same thing happening for his codefendants. >> dick, does donald trump need to be arraigned second time if there's a new superseding indictment? >> well, the rules say that he must be. they also provide, though, if they file a written request to not have to appear in person, the judge may waive the personal appearance. but it still has to be clear in the written request that he has received copies of the new charges, the new indictment against him, the superseding indictment. and he is aware of the new charges coming against him. so, technically, he should be federal rules, or criminal procedure, require that he be arraigned. however, that can be waived if he filed a request with the court. and to my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet. >> barb, just going back to that superseding indictment and what we learned at the end of last week, we now know jack smith doesn't just have what he thinks is strong evidence of obstruction of justice, an attempt we -- don't know if it succeeded or not -- to delete footage after being subpoenaed. but also, the iran battle plans that were heavily reported on the media, the document that donald trump is alleged to have waved around bedminster, he denied that on fox. he said it wasn't a document, just papers. and now, we believe that the special counsel has that too. >> yes, i think so. you don't, the first time around, it did not specify that they had the document. but this time around, it says specifically that donald trump showed that document to a person unauthorized to see it. and it is listed as a substantive count. it is then you count 32 in the superseding indictment. i don't think they would do that unless they had a document which they could fix an exhibit sticker and introduce into evidence. it appears that since the last time, they've gotten their hands on that document, or they have clarified which document it is, perhaps by talking with that witness about what she saw in that room. so, that is now part of this case. it's also, i think, it makes the case a bit stronger. i think previously, it could have come in under rule of evidence called 404b, which says you can bring in other bad acts to show a person's m.o., intent, knowledge, some other things. but sometimes, judges don't ramp that request. he that is part of a substantive charge, it absolutely is coming in to evidence. >> dick, last question to you, you help prosecute some of the worst of the worst, cartel bosses, as well as panamanian dictator manuel noriega on drug charges back in the 1990s. i would never dare to compare donald trump with noriega. but jack smith is now prosecuting the biggest, you know, the most high-profile defendant anyone can imagine in america, a former president. how do you think jack smith has handled this indictment, this case so far? >> i think everything he's done so far is as professional, and probably most professional i've ever seen. he has written an indictment, which has so much information, and is so exacting, it has quotations. it has photographs. i don't think i've ever seen an indictment which has been this exacting and this complete. i have to say that you couldn't do much better than he's done. >> barb mcquade and dick gregorie, thank you for your analysis. appreciate it. coming up -- earlier this year, ron desantis was tied with donald trump for the republican nomination. so, what happened? the latest on the implosion of diet trump. but, first, you just wanted to find 11,000 more votes, when georgia investigators could be the next to indict the former president. the next to indict the former president. next scene might take a while. for a great low rate, go with the general. i need it cool at night. next scene might take a while. you trying to ice me out of the bed? baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! save up to $500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. plus, 60 month financing on most smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. every business that's why comcast business de is launching theal. mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. >> all i want to do is this. comcast business, powering possibilities. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. look, brad, i gotta get -- i have to find 12,000 votes. and i have them, times a lot. >> so what are we gonna do here, folks? i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. >> give me a break. you remember that piece of sound, right? donald trump's infamous call urging the georgia secretary of state to overturn the election there, and, quote, find him nearly 12,000 votes. it's a call that had anyone else made, had you or i made it, we would be in prison right now. americans have been waiting for more than two and a half years to see if there will be any accountability for that attempt to steal an election that was caught on tape. now, accountability may finally be at hand. earlier this year, fulton county georgia district attorney fani willis set an august schedule for her staff, that signaled to many, that is when a charging decision would likely be made. speaking to nbc's atlanta affiliate over the weekend, this week district attorney willis essentially confirmed that timeline. >> we made a commitment to the people, most importantly citizens of fulton county, that we are gonna be making some big decisions, regarding the election of the investigation. and i would do that before september 1st, 2023. and i'm gonna hold true that commitment. the work is accomplished. the work you want to have here is ready to go. >> we are ready to go. joining me now is tamar hallerman, senior reporter with the atlanta journal-constitution. thank you so much for coming on the show tonight. d. a. willis says her team is ready to go, as we just heard her say. august, of course, begins tomorrow. do we have any indications, can you give us any more precise ideas on timing? >> well, we actually just got a little bit in the last hour or so. george cheety, who's an independent journalist down here in georgia, confirmed that he got a subpoena to come and testify before both of the regular grand juries that are meeting here in august and are expected to hear potential trump related charges, and his subpoena dates says anywhere between august 7th, and august 31st. so, that means we are not expecting potential indictments this week, but we could see it next week, the week after. and potentially even later into august. >> and, tamar, while we are on that, quickly, what is his role or alleged role in this georgia story? >> george cheety stumbled upon a meeting of alternate republican electors at the state capital here in georgia in mid december of 2020. he was there waiting to observe the regular democratic electors who were scheduled to go at noon. but he saw some republicans, and then he walked into a room. he thought, okay, that's interesting. he tried to enter the room. he was recording on's phone. it was booted out and told that it was an educational meeting. and of course, we find out later that that was the meeting of the republican trump electors who did end up opening the meeting to the public so people could record. but his testimony could be very crucial, especially since it looks like the d. a. is still very interested in who organized and participated in this meeting of the electors. >> a very educational meeting. tamar, i understand that cameras are allowed in georgia state courtrooms. so, let me just clarify this -- if donald trump is arraigned in fulton county, it will likely be on video. is that right? >> yes, a lot of that depends on the judge who is going to be overseeing the case that day. so, we have to file special paperwork if you want to shoot cameras or recorded audio in a courtroom. so far, we haven't encountered any problems with that, under judge mcburney, as we've gone through the investigative part of all of this. although, we don't know who the judge is going to be should trump or others be indicted in fulton county. and it all depends on them and what they see. and of course, the secret service would be involved in any sort of negotiations, should trump himself be indicted. and of course, they don't want to do anything to put the former president in harm's way. so, perhaps, they will make a push to not have this be televised. >> i feel like if donald trump has a televised arraignment, he's doing a stephen colbert popcorn gift right now. today, tamar, you reported on a ruling from a judge on a motion by trump's team to, quote, got the fulton county investigation of interference in georgia's 2020 presidential election. what is the motion and how did the judge rule? >> this was a long time coming. the former president's lawyers submitted a motion back in march that sought to not only disqualify d. a. willis from continuing the investigation, they sought to remove judge mcburney who's been overseeing this entire process. they wanted to kill the final report of the special grand jury that helped compile evidence for the d. a. and suppress any of the evidence that they had pulled together during their term. so, they really tried to throw the kitchen sink at all of this. the judge smacked them down after we waited a couple of months for this ruling. there is a question about whether there will be an appeal, especially before we expect the d. a. to seek indictments. and there is a hearing scheduled next week, with a different judge. trump's attorneys recently tried to go over judge mcburney 's had to try and get him to rule. and that hearing is on the books for next week. we will still see if that's going to happen although it is seeming less likely, especially if mr. trump's lawyers appeal. >> one last question, tamar, a lot of this has been playing out publicly from d. a. interview with nbc correspondent lynn alexander, where she reinforced the seriousness of the inquiry to the released portion of the special grand jury report to the grand jury instructions that were recently broadcast. we saw willis's taking over the weekend. could this be a model for other prosecutors, particularly as they pursue cases against trump, that this level of transparency works? >> potentially. and it is something that you see trump and other folks who are targeted in this investigation, we've heard them complaining a lot about it. you see it often in legal filings, this very trump motion today that the judge ruled. on one of the arguments they were making for disqualifying the d. a. from the investigation was because d. a. willis has been so out front, at least explaining her process, and that she was looking for justice. they argue that it compromise the probe. the judge said, no, i don't think so. but he did mention how it is a different level of not transparency, but just openness that we don't typically see in this case. >> tamar hallerman, we will have to leave it there. thank you for your reporting. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> still ahead -- you may have seen this moment florida governor ron desantis acting very relate-able on the campaign trail. >> i saw that you have like a 1955 bush and there. that was nice. how much is that? [laughter] >> what if i told you things had only gotten worse? things have only gotten oars for the man some people have called short trump. the latest on the crumbling republican attempt to out-trump, donald trump, that's next. >> today, we've got new polling out that is devastating news for every republican presidential candidate not under criminal indictment. the poll results could be considered funeral rights for the non trump republican party. simply put, it is done. if you had any doubt that this is trump's race and trump's race to lose, this poll will clear things up for you. i mean, here's the headline from the latest new york times sienna poll, and it sums up everything you need to know. trump crushing desantis and gop rivals. among republicans, the ex president tops desantis with 54%. the florida governor holding on to a mere 17%. that is a 37 point lead that trump holds over desantis, nearly 40 points. and when the whole slew of candidates is put on the board against trump, not one candidate besides desantis, tops 3%. desantis even loses on fighting so-called wokeness in this new poll. if you've been paying any attention to the 24 presidential primary, you know fighting the woke is very dear to desantis's heart. >> because it's a war on truth, i think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke. >> from day one, we are gonna rip the politics out of the military. we are gonna end the woke agenda. >> woke is ultimately an assault on truth. we named florida the state where woke goes to die. >> as president, i will fight the woke in the corporations, i will fight the woke in the schools and i will fight the woke in the halls of congress. we will never, ever surrender to the woke mob. >> stirring pseudo-chilean stuff, but when it comes to republican voters who want to fight wokeness, however they define it, donald trump again crushes desantis. look at the numbers, not even close. trump, 61%, and desantis at 36%. that is a 25 point lead for the ex president. donald trump is also, by the way, the front candidate, apparently, 54% of republican voters say he is more fun compared to desantis. trump is also far ahead of desantis among republicans who, quote, accpet transgender people as the gender they identify with, and more losing, he beats ron desantis on both fronts. when it comes to trump's criminal indictments, dozens of felonies, only 17% of republican voters believe he committed a crime. 71% believe he has not committed any. buth question is posed to maga voters, 0% -- zero believe he committed a crime, oh, it's not a cult. that is the ex presidents loyal base standing by his side, no matter what. simply put, donald trump owns this republican party. he owns this gop presidential race. and no one is even coming close to beating him for the nomination. in fact, no presidential primary candidate who has had this kind of lead in the polls at this point in the primaries has ever lost. with the first primary debate in roughly three weeks, trump has said he is not showing up. and honestly, why would he? today, he posted, quote, let them debate, so i can see oh i might consider for vice president. ouch. but he kind of has a point. right now, it is a race for second place. the guy who is currently second behind him is trailing him by nearly 40 points, and hasn't been able to hit his stride with voters. he has not made any inroads. so, we will discuss ron desantis and his failure to launch, just yet. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? the three ps of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54, what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? also $9.95 a month. i just turned 80, what's my price? $9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions. your acceptance is guaranteed. and this plan has a guaranteed lifetime rate lock so your rate can never go up for any reason. so call now for free information and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. and it's yours free just for calling. so call now for free information. >> by now, if you've been following the republican presidential primary, you've seen a video florida governor 2024 presidential contender ron desantis shaming a child in an iowa county fair. it's the latest in a series of very when she exchanges on the campaign trail, as he tries to prove to the world that he is a real boy. and the staff -- well, the staff that hasn't been fired yet, has certainly notice that about their candidate. and they are turning to a different beverage to bail their man out. why not make ron desantis look like the kind of guy who want to have a non woke beer with? and as you can see from this normal interaction wrong is crushing it. >> have a beer with you -- [laughter] >> out here, i don't know if we are having -- all right, that's, it everybody. >> all right, let's say hi to everybody. it's a bit painful to watch, and it's those types of encounters that are causing everyone to shutter. ron desantis is nearly 40 points behind donald trump. but it's important to remember, to be fair to run, this wasn't always the case. back in february, he was tied with trump. so, i guess the truth is that the more people see of desantis, the more people just don't like him. ben smith is the editor in chief of semafor, and symone sanders townsend served as a senior adviser for biden's 2020 campaign. she is the host of symone on peacock, and both ben and symone join me now. this is just, it is just sad, really, to watch what's going on in the desantis campaign. symone, why is the twice elected governor of florida so bad at politics? >> i think he is that at national politics, frankly, mehdi. i put a lot of campaigns and i advised a lot of candidates back in my day. and i just argue that ron desantis was never a good national candidate. he was never made to be a good presidential candidate. the things that ron desantis ran on and got him twice elected in florida are things that have proven to be wildly unpopular with the majority of the electorate outside of florida. you know, they taking on -- now in the new york times siena poll that came out and everyone has been talking about that, and a lot has been made about where desantis is in that poll vis-à-vis donald trump, not just donald trump but everyone else. but there's a question in there about woke politics and taking on the woke mob. and that does not poll high. candidates, republican voters, did not seem to like republican candidates that were centering their campaigns or talking about that particular piece. and that frankly the whole thing ron desantis built his campaign on. it's something he likes campaigning. he doesn't like tail politics and he's not good at it, which is why we are seeing these painful interactions with voters on the trail. >> not just for voters, simone, but with kids. ben, i've got to ask, desantis was on fox earlier today, and he said, oh, it's all the fault of the corporate media, the left who misrepresent me and represent my state and make me say things like slaves got personal benefits from being blacksmith, et cetera, et cetera. all candidates especially on the right like to match the media. you know, it's better than -- but desantis, he's in a different world when it comes to media bashing. it's not working for him, though, is it? >> i think one of the really interesting things is he had a really specific philosophy and belief which is that the mainstream media was kind of over. he could speak to select conservative outlets within this tiny tiny system of very sycophantic florida outlets that he created. and it worked when he seems strong. but when you are down, you gotta try to reach more people. and he has it is very strange rapid response operation that is focused on wondering videos to anonymous twitter accounts with big blockbusters, form of that right now. but he doesn't have an operation of massive feel -- but what i want to say, to what symone said earlier, it's so easy when a candidate is losing, to say he is a weirdo. here's a bad video of him. and i think one of the things that we all learn from this is that donald trump is a very, very strong candidate. i am not sure, mehdi, if you are running for the republican nomination, he would have like a much better strategy than ron desantis. he was a in a very tricky situation. i'm not really sure what he should have done, donald trump is very, very strong. >> but, mehdi, can i just say to ben's point here, ron desantis, let's not forget, he launched his campaign on a line, like his campaign has not been centered or focused on actual real people. i think the bus tour that he is currently on across iowa, 99 counties in iowa, ron desantis campaign says they plan to go to all 99 of them, that is a very good strategy. one could argue that's the way you should have launched his campaign. but instead, his campaign apparatus hasn't focused on speaking to a very small group of people that might not even be voters. >> hold on, symone, it's a good strategy to go out and see as many voters as possible. if you've got a good candidate -- but if the candidate himself is inherently flawed, and the more you put him out there, the more you see doesn't like campaigning. i guess, i don't know how he sustains this for another year. he clearly can't sustain it for the last few weeks. >> i think it just depends. i think everyone here knows that you go for bernie sanders, right? and senator sanders, is not necessarily a walk the line guy, if you will. and so, you have to build events that support your candidates. he was really great at the town hall, why? because bernie sanders knows exactly what he's talking about. he's been saying the same thing, for us i like to say, longer than i've been alive. he's taken these positions about the economy. so, you put bernie sanders in a town hall, honey, and he's gonna go and answer those questions. i think -- to have a reboot or a campaign that works, you have to build it around your candidate's strengths. and what i am saying is that i think ron desantis's campaign is struggling to find out what his strengths are on the campaign trail. i just don't think he is a good presidential candidate. >> i guess bernie sanders leaned into grumpy grandfather, whereas ron desantis is leading to an obnoxious uncle. ben, semafor, your outlet, just write a piece talking about the election being the first election of the age of fragmentation. candidates running away from mainstream media interviews and heading for podcasts and alternative media platforms. ron desantis, in particular as you mentioned, he went on meghan kelly's podcast recently where he said he would pardon trump. he even did russell brands as well. again, it may have worked for him in the past. is it working for him now? he also ended up on cnn with jake tapper, trying to reach more people at the same. >> yeah, and i think the reality is that all of the mainstream outlets, yours, broadcast, the new york times, the strongest, and they are still shrinking. fox news, shrinking. everything is getting smaller. and what is replacing it is not some huge new thing, but huge proliferation of smaller outlets, many of them podcasts, small youtube shows. and these campaigns find themselves, you know, talking to people you never heard of all the. i'm sure joe biden is certainly he -- talked to a wellness influencer today. and in one of the things, one of the results of it, as someone trying to follow the campaign, it's very hard to know what's going on. i mean, tim scott is on question podcasts all day, i wonder how many of us listen to this. vivek ramaswamy is doing anything, and would be acquitted after us. all this, there's no central thread. and it's very hard to know, it's very hard to follow. and this new fragmented -- fragmented media universe that we're all living in right now. >> ben, just before you go, i'm gonna clarify that i'm not running for the republican presidential nomination. and i don't sadly listen to that many christian broadcasts. although i'm sure they are great -- >> coming together in interesting ways, i think you've done that. >> maybe ramaswamy will tap me as vp. symone, today, republican congressman from kentucky who endorsed desantis said, quote, we've got to find some judge in florida that will indict desantis quick to close this indictment gap. but the truth is anytime someone is being persecuted, their camp rallies to their defense. now, aside from the fact that what does that say about the republican party, that they like trump more the more he's unveiled to have done criminal things eventually. there is a reality. desantis and trump were neck and neck in the polls. and then trump starts getting indicted. and they don't know what to do. it's not just desantis, but the entire republican field, they don't want to call trump out for this. they are stuck. what would you be advising tim scott to be saying now about january 6th, trump, and documents? >> first of all, i think two things. two things can be true at the same time. yes, the indictments have bumped donald trump up in the politics conversation, if you will, among the voters because there is the political ramifications and the legal. politically, it has given him a bump. legally, he is in real trouble. but separately from that, ron desantis came down in the polls. and i would argue it's not solely due to the former president's indictments. i think it is because voters, you know, people are starting to pay a little bit more attention to this very active primary. i think for any other candidate, every candidate has to have a strategy. i think the debate stage is coming up, and that is going to be the biggest stage any of these candidates have the opportunity to stay on it will be on. and it is there that folks have to make a positive case for themselves, republican candidates, and not just attacking donald trump because it's not popular with the base of voters from which they are trying to clean voters from. that's what they need to do. you can go out there and you can do what will hurd did. i think it was important for him to say, everything he said was true. but it's not gonna and in the. >> last question to you, ben. just to what you said earlier, what would i do if i was running? god help us. i would probably say this as a twitter junkie, put the twitter or accept down. you've got a story today about how this online media team has just been creating these new videos some of which had nazi imagery in them, some grassroots activism. >> they really just, you know, shooting themselves on the foot, other body parts with this twitter obsession. and honestly, it feels a little out of date it's something that donald trump did very, very effectively in 2016. and it reminds me, back in 2009, 2010, there would be kind of old school democratic operatives pitching stories to newsweek. and i was a young reporter for online outlets. they said, no, give it to the internet. that's where people are. and winning the stretch here on twitter now feels like that when something is looking backward to the increasingly distant past, where twitter was the central take place for politics. >> the website formally known as twitter. ben smith and symone sanders townsend, thank you both for your time. appreciate it. still to come -- she was a longtime democrat who ran on abortion rights. so, why did she suddenly flip parties and throw north carolina politics into chaos. incredible new reporting from the times. do not go. ♪ ♪ ♪ as twitter. ben smith and symone sanders townsend, thank you both for your time. appreciate it. still to come -- she was a longtime democrat who ran on ab >> you may remember trisha cotham. she is the state representative in north carolina who abruptly switched from democratic to republican this past spring. cotham handed the gop gerrymandered state legislature their veto proof majority. it allowed them to run through a 12-week abortion ban that was opposed by the states democratic governor. the ban not only takes the way the rights of a pregnant woman that states but it also hurts people from other southern states with abortion bans, traveling to north carolina for health care. and this is all possible because of a party switching trisha cotham who voted with her fellow republicans for the ban. it was weird because several years before in 2015, cotham drew national attention for sharing her own abortion story on the floor of the north carolina state house. >> my first pregnancy ended in an induced physician assistant miscarriage. while i served in this chamber. my doctor told me that this pregnancy would likely not be valuable viable, and that if i did not take swift medical action, my life and any hope of future babies would be in severe danger. abortion is a deeply personal decision. it should not be a political debate. my womb and my uterus is not up for your political grab. >> so, what on earth let that person, someone who spoke out passionately for abortion rights, and just ran last year as a pro-choice democrat, to suddenly betrayed her voters. two new york times reporters did a deep dive on the very suspicious party switching of tricia cotham that, quote, blew up north carolina politics. kate kelly, a washington post pundit for the new york times was on that story, and she joins me now. kate, thanks so much for coming on the show. you report that some big name north carolina party figures encouraged cotham to run in the primary in 2022, but they weren't democratic party figures, were there? >> no, the majority leader of the republican party then and now spoke to trisha cotham before she filed for the primary last march and encouraged her to run. and we also learned that the speaker of the house, republican tim moore, who was speaker last term and is now, encouraged her to run all the way, although he said he hadn't talked to her before the primary. so, we know that from the very get-go, gop, sort of, deep rooted interests within north carolina were backing trisha cotham. they say they didn't know that she was gonna switch parties. they say they regarded her as a centrist democrat in a redrawn this rick that was gonna go to a democrat regardless. they wanted someone who would reach across the aisle. and to be fair, that is some of her mystery, some sort of collaborative impulses with republicans on certain issues. however, you are very right to point out that she ran on a pro-choice agenda. she ran as an ally to the lgbtq community. she ran at someone that was gonna get local sheriffs autonomy when it came to going along with ice, among many other policy decisions which now are effectively reversed with her votes, commentary, and other signals. >> yes, and you guys write how trisha cotham's victory november help democrats locked in enough states to prevent, by a single vote, a republican super majority in the state house. and then, just three months after she took office, as we've discussed, she switches parties. i wonder, what has been the reaction in her district? >> bitterness, betrayal, anger. you know, she's had some pretty awful things to contend with since she switched, death threats, her tires slashed, her kharkiv, abusive, violent messages. you know, none of this is good. but people are extremely feeling betrayed and she was the g. o. a. t. in a sort of standup comedic saturday night live type thing in charlotte called charlotte squawks that my co-writer attended. that didn't even make the stories because there's so many aspects to the rage and frustration in the community. and part of, it mehdi, he really hasn't fully explained her change of heart. her party, on april 5th, essentially boiled down there's too much group thinking in the democratic party. they are too process oriented. i don't recognize them. and they are nasty. they've been coming to me. and throughout the reporting on this story, i try to get her on the phone, to elaborate on some of the very specific policy disputes that drove her away. i have not been able to shake that loose and nor has any other reporter at the north carolina press corps that i've seen. >> you mentioned me in this, i just want to talk about that. you quote her former campaign consulted saying that she told him, quote, the democrats don't like me. the republicans have help me out a lot and are nice to me. we often try to reduce political battles, kate, ideology, or policy. but a lot of time, it is ego, anger, personal stuff. and i feel like we see that with kyrsten sinema and joe manchin, too, in the senate. >> that's the reaction that i've heard from a lot of people in the last day or so, it seems like it was about petty, personal rivalries. it was that feeling of personal injury. and it is interesting, you know, the campaign consultant you mention told me that there was almost a very trumpian kind of narcissistic approach here, like everyone is against me. they used to be for me. you know, even before she switched stances, she was frustrated at not getting, for example, the endorsements of planned parenthood south atlantic. but she also did not attempt the board meetings with that group that are required to get her a candidate endorsement. and i'm not ronnycleide, she came to office in january, she sued cosponsored a bill that would have codified roe v. wade in north carolina. and i think about that, you are quite right to quote her famous floor speech from 2015 that is very much of a pro-choice call. but as recently as late january of this year, she was a cosponsor on a road built. and within, you know, three, four months, she reverses her stance on what approved to be a critical issue because this state was very much a destination, like a very rare oasis and access for abortion within the deep south, up until july 1st. >> i gotta ask, kate, in your reporting, did you get to the bottom of all this, what you highlight there? because she is a progressive, pro-choice a democrat when she was in the state house before. then she goes out of office, she cofounded a lobbying firm, where one of her partners was a major donor to state republicans and also president of a company that she -- she comes back into office as a democrat, only briefly, and and then switches to republican. you report that republicans were pushing her to. so, am i allowed to speculate and say, hold on, was she a republican the whole time when she was coming back to office? we have evidence of that? >> that's the open question. i can't say more than i have learned through your reporting. i mean, we know that republicans encouraged her to run, and at least one prominent one encouraged her before she ran. we also reported that some of her biggest donors on the campaign trail were two pacs, one related to dental professionals in north carolina, another related to nursing home facilities that give almost entirely or predominately to democrats. we know that on the very first day of this term, mehdi, which was january 11th, she was one of the escorts to bring the house speaker to the dais. and the other democrats in that room, one was the minority leader from the opposing minority, obviously, and the other two had longer ten years and regarded as close to this figure. so there were all these signs that she was at a minimum friendly -- >> and yet, kate, sorry to jump. and we are out of time. and yet, she switched. and we still don't know why. -- kate kelly, thank you so much for your reporting. appreciate it. that is all in on this monday night. chris hayes will be back tomorrow. and you can watch the mehdi hasan show sundays at eight pm, right here on msnbc, and streaming weekly on peacock. but right now, it is time for the rachel maddow show. good evening, rachel. good evening, rachel. good evening, rachel. good evening, rachel. good evening, rachel. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, my friend. much appreciated. thank you for joining us at home this evening. good to have you here tonight. all right, here it is. you ready? in late december phillip johnson and alan blackburn summoned a reporter from "the new york herald tribune, called them adventurers with an intellectual overlay. and explained that the two were taking a sabbatical from the museum in order to start a new political movement. they were calling it the national party and they were ve lighting out for louisiana the very next day to try to sign on

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