order to be confirmed. >> as outrage continues, new thinking about the mysterious source of the supreme court abortion draft, plus, desperate attempt to stop the republican power grab. civil disobedience over the mobs in ohio. and checking in on the maga by mary in the next big senate race. >> president trump offered to buy greenland from denmark. but did you think about that? >> i thought it was an awesome idea. because he's a deal guy. >> all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. we know the closest evidence yet that the president was possibly just one degree of separation from the violent armed insurrection. and it comes to us from a federal filing from the department of justice. but before we get to that, and understand what this means, we need to keep in mind how many people had access, of course, did i know workings of the trump white house. particularly in the last few months. we know from mark meadows text messages that fringe conspiracy theorists have a direct line of communication to his office. the wife of sitting supreme court justice terrence thomas was texting meadows about overturning the 2020 election, as well as all sorts of crazy qanon conspiracy theories about trump's enemies being rounded up and held prisoner in guantánamo be. mike lindell, the pillow man of course, was also texting medal by the election, including a rambling rant about god and rigged voting machines. he got fox news hosts all texting meadows, either before or during the insurrection. and then there is the head of the far-right group. he was indicted by the department of justice for his role in inciting the insurrection. and the days before january six, tarrio says he was invited to the white house, although the trump administration claimed he was just there for public tours. we also know the proud boys including tire you appeared in a stop the steal event, with a lot of adviser to donald trump roger stone, and these leading up to the injection. so we know lots of people had access to trump's inner circle. and we know about one more. his name, we said before on the show, his name is elmer stewart rhodes the third. he's the head of another far-right gang, known as the oath keepers. the most electoral play as militiaman. and our supporters of donald trump. roses currently facing federal surcharges of seditious conspiracy, they rarely prosecuted crime, for his role in attempting to violently overturn the results of the election. according to an teichman, quote, roads and his guns's conspirators were stopping the transfer of power, including ways of force. according travel across the country to enter washington d.c.. equipments also the righty of weapons. don combat antarctic would be here or prepared to answer rhodes's call to take up arms at rhodes's direction. some coconspirators also amassed firearms about skirts of washington d.c.. disagreed them among a quick reaction force team and plan to use the firearm in support of a plot to stop the lawful transfer of presidential. power rose also told another oath keepers he could stored those weapons in his hotel room on january six. quote, if you want to steal operations, he'll have a secure car trunk or his hotel room. that's from government filings. the governor alleges rhodes himself spent more than $10,000 on weapons accessories and tactical gear in the days before the insurrection. and the quick reaction force ended up storing most of his weapons in nearby virginia. with rosen's allies eventually plotting away to bring them to the capitol quickly once they to control the building. quote, the quick reaction is to transport firearms and other weapons to washington d.c.. in support of operations using forced to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power. let me take a step back for a second, this is what a coup plot is. as a government alleges. one trump supporter even posted this picture, but appears to be guns in tactical gear just on virginia's approach offside on the night of january 5th. we also awfully clear cut evidence that sasse same oath keepers met with out of the proud boys for 30 minutes in an underground parking garage next and other doj filing, quote, a document you focus was in of the garage, and picked up an audio of a person saying capital. the day after, road spent thousands more and ammunition. on inauguration day, he wants allies don't show to complain about trump not doing more to support the violent insurrection and to calling his voters supporters to resist the illegitimate biden regime. >> it's amazing the trump will let the election be stolen from under him, i let our country be stolen like this. so, we have an opportunity to walk the path. and get away from the legitimate regime. we still protect the constitution from the violators. and then they get strong in your communities. they will raise local michelin seals, like the founders did. you need to know if, i refused to comply, and when they come from, you you defend yourselves. >> okay. these people were serious, i guess, is what i want to say here. i mean, they talked about a plan to use while overturn the results of the election, and according to the federal evidence compiled, again, is just allege where the government, they did a lot of planning. now, we know from a federal filing that roads at least claimed he was coordinating with someone close to donald trump. on january 6th, roads were produced a call from a source that apparently closer trump on speakerphone. and another oath keepers, quote, heard roads could really implore the individual to tell presidential to call up on groups like the oath keepers to forcibly oppose the transfer of power. this individual denied worlds request to speak directly with president trump. of the wall ended, wrote stated to the group, i just want to fight. so there's a lot we don't know here. this could've just been bluster from roads. it's not impossible, though he had connections in the white house. the morning that selection, for example, the oath keepers were providing security, with trump's longtime advisor. so, average truly was on the phone with someone close to trump, imploring the president to tell armed far-right experiments groups to oppose the chance for power by force, that's a pretty big deal. among other things to consider, just imagine for example would've happened if roads had gone through to the president. the man who had already incited insurrection was reportedly watching the violence unfold on tv with ugly, i was desperate to stop the certification of biden's election by any means. ryan riley is a justice reporter from nbc news, he's covering the general six effect on the capitol, and he joins me now. ryan, give us the context for this filing. where did this allegation of the government come from? >> yeah, so this is the third guilty plea in a seditious conspiracy case with a member of the oath keepers. with this whole that yesterday, i was just, oh, there's another one. it was almost a whole something, you have to step back row moment and look at it as a seditious case. both of reporters around. the force trial in the first meetings we've seen. and all of a sudden, they are willing to sell. when they got to this one paragraph, the judge actually paused for a moment, and then they said something like, i wanna make sure we have this one right, or get this one clear. this allegation, it was agreed just by both a prosecution and the defendant in this case. it was now an admitted seditious conspirator that he was in the phoenix park hotel right off the grounds of the capitol. it was overheard this conversation between some sort of trump intermediary, and stewart rhodes. and this is to remind you, this is as the capital of grounds are still occupied. they just one from the capital, police were so clearing things out. this is right between the time after trump sent a message about initially saying go away, but then it was before, remember this day forever. it was still like an active scene at that point. >> yeah, and the judge is actually being brought up short by this. the testimony, i mean, this is coming via this plea deal, right? if the third oath keepers to plea, which means the government has got a lot of cooperation against roach. >> correct, and he isn't cooperating for a while, it's very clear. they walked up into the hallway for the hearing and he was very familiar with the prosecutors, and just the way this case was right about, he's testifying before the grand jury today, they were talking about the logistics behind that. so, this is a significant development, and it really could go a couple of different ways here. they're both preparing for this forthcoming trial with a number of oath keepers defendants. he'll obviously be defending their, but also, frankly, whoever this mysterious person was, this apparent trump connect, that's also something that's gonna be explored, it says he's not connected. we don't know who exactly that is. it's a big mystery right now, was this person, who was this link between stewart rhodes and donald trump? >> yeah, this is how the washington post characterizes a, what was known about that call is that the oath keepers had some close linked to trump, where they thought they did. as a father good functionally in d.c. with quick reaction forces stationed at hotels in virginia. and have to stay, every time we go back into the specific story, obviously also what happened with the mob. we know the various levels of culpability that people at the front where charging. what is alleged by the government here? and, again, i think based on fairly significant evidence, all those just allegations at this point, although in some cases, pled to buy people. a full scale violent coup. a full scale violent insurrection against a lawful government of the united states being carried out in plain sight by this individual and his coconspirators inference of what they thought was donald trump's goal, and at one point, attempting directly to reach out to donald trump to be like, this. >> yeah, this was no longer cosplay more. this is no longer playing the gossip. he was on the grounds of the capitol, so it happened on the grounds, and said, let's go, i want to fight. and then afterwards went to the hall of gordon. so this read mix of comedy and tragedy and there are in a lot of these cases. just ongoing theme of january six. and that's what i think a lot of the defense lawyers played open. i talk to one of the lawyers who has worked with the words last night. i was texting with them. he's not disbarred, i should mention. but he was saying, essentially, they were this in light of trump, so the keepers of being clear from the beginning that they do know that dark time, and clearly they were ones that were moved. they knew a guy, they believed they had that. so who was in trump's orbit those communicating directly with the head of the seditious conspiracy, allegedly? as agreed to buy multiple all the defendants is definitely something of interest. >> yeah, and just finally, abc news had this reporting about the committee, the january six committee staff clashing with the former u.s. attorney. they brought in this former u.s. attorney was overseeing the cases, and the class behind closed doors. the members behind the house select committee, they conducted with a former acting certify by troll one. the doj office of legislators previously objected. they said they would impact the doj's work. one thing that can clear is, what began as an enormous cases for a lot of people who are black and white trespassers, has moved up the chain to this kind of case, which is, again, they are possibly connected will surrounding the president or just are being one of them. we know the oath keepers providing them security. this mystery color. at the same like doj is going across the longer is gone. >> yeah, i think that's, true i think is a first time seeing tensions ramp up. they have different eyes that are looking at this, and different approaches that are taking, whereas, doj the fbi, has to say very strict to what is the colonel fence they're investigating here. they can poke around the arnaud pinson doors, and hope they have it. but there's tension where -- and just in general, doj is hesitant to get into some of the details of their discretion and inquiries. >> ryan riley, thank you so much. still to come, the continued fallout for the supreme court leak as states prepare for post royal bush and fights. a sudden you think it with a mystery evil might leak the bombshell documents, and why. i want my next guess the supreme court investigations and the leak as a sham. don't go anywhere, i'll be right back. don't go anywhere, i'll be right back right back and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy 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decision was leaked, the wall street journal, published out of nowhere, out of nowhere, this editorial advocating for the supreme court to overturn roe. but looking back, it sure seems to have a real insider look at the courts decision making. in fact, they write that she this is done or seem to be pushing for middle ground that would not totally be eviscerated roe. saying, quote, if you pose another justices side, he can write the parietal erupting that controls in the 63 decision. if he can't, then justice thomas would've signed opinion and the vote can be five for. our guess is that justice alito would then get the assignment. well that's a real lucky guess. where is all that coming from? where is all this inside knowledge of what the jockeying is around this decision? which, again, listen to tread cruise, is sacrilege. so, the wall street journal guesses, he did get the assignment, and those not public knowledge. they continue, quote, roberts may be trying to turn another justice now. we'll be doesn't succeed, for the good of the court and the country. they're putting pressure on the justices in realtime based on, apparently, inside information. the column flew under the radar. but following the lead to political, sure seems more than likely, a timely warning to conservatives on the court. and there's a context to look back now, which circumstantially, at least, fits with the pattern, perhaps, a conservative leaker trying to look and votes in place. she explains the leak explanation is a scam, and she joins me now. dahlia, ivan idea who leaked this? could've been anybody. i'm not inside knowledge. but that editorial the wall street editorial board sure looks real we are now, given the context of what we have now. >> yeah, and i would add to the mix that 2012 wall street journal editorial that told jen roberts not to get squishy on obamacare, and subsequent reporting revealed that a whole bunch of conservative funded knew that he was getting squishy. and my flip. and we now know that that information somehow, very similar structure, by the way, chris. the top half of that editorial was sort of like, oh, you know, the rules are hysterical. they're out of their minds. john roberts better not do anything that can be subject to pressure. that would be threatening to the court. so this is what exactly is the same. the structure, is you, know liberals are out of their minds. they're hysterical. they're crazy, they're complaining about the shadow docket. and john roberts better not get squishy or he's already gone squishy, anybody not pick off another. so, it's just so hard to look at those and not see that there is a slight pattern of special pleading at the court. that is coming from that editorial page. >> right, especially putting based on insider knowledge. the whole discourse around the sacrosanct and viability of the knowledge inside the crypt must never leak out. they are talking about it in most cases where it's like, really lucky in mind reading. there's some kind of information. >> yeah, i mean, jeff toobin and the oath reported this out very thoroughly. i think that we knew at the time that there were a lot of conservative pundits who knew what was happening in deliberations and so i'm not saying that in any way making claims like ted cruz, that have any knowledge. the truth is, i am saying, i have no idea. but i'm also saying that ted cruz has no idea. and, you know, it would be good to wait for the flags before you say things like that. >> there's also a key context here, that i want to talk about. what happened in casey. when you look in the mental state of people who want and abortion, we think abortion is murder, they walked into conference and casey which happened 20 years off the row, and i think they got the majority to overturn roe. and they do at the first vote. and then there's a flip, famously, and so if some of asian is happening again, that's deeply triggering to the entire world of conservatives. >> well, i think it's probably just useful to remember that they have a good step on scopes law that's trying to amount to one of the things he said that's really useful to think about is that there's not one, but possibly three. and i would suggest they would go further and say for the leaks that have happened in the course of the week. so in addition to the wall street journal having this kind of uncanny back story that justice alito had the opinion, and roberts trying to shave off some wobbly justice of the conservative majority, we then have what we got from political. and we had a further leak of the document itself. and on monday night, we got this extra week -- leakage of justice roberts wants to know what's with him, and somebody has leaked that. so, i think it's just really useful to see this as a complete and total collapse. not just of the court's ability to trust in one another. it's hard to imagine how any justice recovers from this. but i also think, for the american people, to see that this is just hair pulling and slapping happening on the front steps of the court. this just flies in the face of anything, anything that anyone wants to believe that there is a scintilla of legitimacy to these ideas. that the court is a neutral finder of fact and open minded and above politics. this is insane. and so i think the layers of what's triggering is that is just so much pain watching the wheels come off. >> yes, and i think if you want to overturn roe, and they're about to make that decision, you don't want the legitimacy of the authority to be called to question right before they do that. which is part of what's driving the call. dahlia, always a pleasure, thank you >> still to come, the redistributing fights that can give republicans an advantage this november, and a preview of the potential members of the maga caucus, just that. of the maga caucus, just that ♪ baby got back by sir mix-a-lot ♪ unlimited cashback match... only from discover. 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i think there's two possible ways to approach this. one, you can fortify the institution because otherwise you would end up in a race that the bottom. if you do the rule breaking the other side, those that got a license to do more. one other approach is that you can try to fight fire with fire. if you believe that fundamentally, is not the institutions, or the norms that matter, but rather, doing whatever it takes within the law to protect a free and flushing democracy, but we see this battle between institutionalist and those who are against the system are skeptical of it all the time. another great piece by journalist alex, arguing that institutionalist who make up the vast majority of the democratic party, staffers and elected members, have trouble reaching an anti-some person, because being against the system isn't inherently adolescent and silly minds up. but believing the things of supreme court has proven to be, i think, much sillier. it's a great illustration playing out right now. on the redistricting battles in ohio. of this dilemma of institutions breaking down what to do about it. so earlier this, year the state supreme court struck down republicans aggressively gerrymandering new congressional map which plainly violated the state law, quote, a state law overwhelmingly approved by voters in 2018 to prevent a mob that unduly favored one party or it's incumbents. now, tara great credit, republican chief justice merino connor voted with democrats to form the 43 majority that rejected them up. and that is an example of institutions holding. she did the correct thing. she followed the rule of law even though the map was an advantage to our party. and so how republicans were sent back to the drawing board. and was like what happens when you tell your kid to clean up, and they pick up one leg on, say i did, it i'm done. republicans on the higher redistricting commission we drew the map, but they barely change that. and now they're trying to run that through. the mobility of republicans an advantage in ten of the states 15 districts was used in this primary election, while it is still being challenged in the high supreme court. remember, this is not 70 30 rhetoric. the fight is continuing over the say level moss. this was the scene at the ohio house after the industry commission wrapped up their meeting yesterday. you can hear the group of angry upon us chanting for now. but basically, what is happened as republicans on the commission have essentially just run roughshod over state law. and the state of constitution and the tenants side, screw you, we're doing anyway. so that's ohio, meanwhile, new york, we've seen a similar situation, right? the state court of appeals struck down the highly gerrymandered partisan maps drawn by the democratically controlled senate in new york. the, court quote, tried democrats for ignoring the constitutional amendment. adopted by voters in 2014. similar to the ohio law. to curve political influence in the redistricting process. just like in ohio, the court in this case made up of judges all appointed by democratic governors ruled against maps that would have given their party a greater advantage. so, one of democrat has done? everybody is in limbo. no one knows where the districts are, the primaries are supposed to be next month. a federal judge postponed until the end of august. there's gonna be a special master to draw new mops. which is to say that new york democrats state senate democrats are not doing what our publicans are doing. bumping hardball, they're not attempting to steamroll the courts and gather gerrymandering apps in place, or ignoring the court altogether. is that the right move? i don't know. honestly, these are not easy questions. i mean, generally, yes, you should've by the constitution. particularly when people tell you they vote for a prohibition on partisan gerrymandering. you should abide by states ruling. in both ian york, these were gerrymanders in direct violation of state law. but the net effect of republicans being lawless in ohio right now, at least, jamming their gerrymandered maps through over the objection of the court, and democrats being essentially law-abiding in new york following the course ruling is that republicans will likely not three or four seats in congress. among the three or four, maybe the mike are off. which became the republican nominee in ohio's ninth district. we'll talk about him and the rest of the trump class of 2022 next. 202 next next ssues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. 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i can't! i'm just telling everyone!... hey! for a limited time, get 50% off a complete pair. visionworks. see the difference. when you are ambassador to denmark, president trump offered to buy greenland from denmark, what do you think about that? >> he was the third u.s. president to make that suggestion, i thought that was an awesome idea because he's a deal guy. >> the maga party was on full display last night, the pennsylvania republican senate debate, hosted by newsmax, and moderated by -- a brief colleague here at msnbc, now newsmax. five candidates were onstage including former ambassador to denmark, you saw them admiring one of the more i love his ideas of the trump presidency. although in the grand scheme, not one of the most harmful. she is trailing in the polls, getting only 5% of the vote. the front runner right now is that trump endorsed tv documented oz, until recently he lived in new jersey. primaries are less than a week away, and given how well the trump guy did in the ohio primary, it's good to check in on the hold that he has on candidates. -- for the washington post, where he writes the trailer newsletter, and he joins me now. you're just back from ohio, dave, i want to talk first about jr magoo ski, who won -- i think it's kind of a vanguard figure, he won a contested primary, in the ninth district. he's gonna take on marcy captor it, who is redistricting it into a trump plus three seat, here he is with his let's go brandon video. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> i've said on twitter that this guy is the future of the republican party, and i sort of mean it seriously. i think you're gonna see a lot more candidates like it. what do you think? >> i think that's right and that sort of approach, social media first things that don't make a lot of sense -- he's running in the toledo area, one of the first newspapers that with donald trump, he got a shout out from trump at the rally. that the former president had at the delaware county. he's famous for decorating his lawn for actually a quite good portrait of donald trump. colored, red white and blue etc. that, and just his big personality through and through. another characteristic we have in the senate race, is that the republican party establishment such as it is, it was that the only way of being a candidate is to accuse him of not being enough of a -- they were in trump enough. which made it easier for j.d. vance. same thing in this race to have a state senator who criticizes trump over access hollywood, probably a little bit more electable but that took her down, she lost to this guy because of that exposure of are criticizing trump. >> what is striking about vans to me, and also senate similar category, he's kind of an extreme example. you guys are about the same age, and you and i have been -- so much about authenticity, like john kerry's inauthentic, and georgia bunches authentic, and this alchemy of authenticity, and there's something to that but it doesn't seem to matter. minute oz is going around with his shotgun, pretending to be an every man, he's a rich turkish tv doctor who lives in new jersey. nothing to do with pennsylvania, not i don't think it means anything to the base in the end. >> but always does have, and some of you hear from trump voters, it's got very successful very wealthy, and that's the sort of candidate that as a sort of in her interest from republican voters. he saw this at one of the public and events, he burned the votes, he turned on the amazing tv careers. that's true, and that's something that you hear from trump supporters, they don't trust people who are climbing up the political ladder, they do trust people who see muriel and are willing to jump in for the government because they see from the outside, and they despise what's happening. >> right, so the authenticity here is the fact that -- donald trump line that he stepped away from my billions of dollars, i don't need to do this. >> that's one way he is defending, it right, he's running against, i pointed out the same thing there's nothing really running as the anti trump candidate. a most there are candidates who say we should move on from 2020, but they're not saying that much because of the backlash. his main competition as you can see in that poll, david mccormack, is a former ceo who says he is entering politics because he's fed up with washington. you have kathy burnett, who's third in that poll, lost the race for congress in 2020, said there is probably election fraud in that loss, even those brittani democratic district. you can see her campaign, just incredibly charismatic, dynamic speeches, if you go down the list and keep going. you find someone who's running on electoral experience or the time in office, they're not running an experience. >> dave weigel, whose trailer newsletter for the washington post is absolutely indispensable, she definitely subscribe if you haven't, thank you so much. still to come, the u.s. surpasses a once on think-able milestone, 1 million lives lost to covid-19, he joins me on how we got to this point, and where we go from here after this. o from here after this ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪ ♪i'm so defensive,♪ ♪i got bongos thumping in my chest♪ ♪and something tells me they don't beat me♪ ♪ ♪ ♪he'd better not take the ring from me.♪ hepatitis c? 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(music) ask your doctor about mavyret. who said you have to starve yourself to lose weight? who said you can't do dinner? who said only this is good? and this is bad? i'm doing it my way. meet plenity. an fda -cleared clinically proven weight management aid for adults with a bmi of 25-40 when combined with diet and exercise. plenity is not a drug - it's made from naturally derived building blocks and helps you feel fuller and eat less. it is a prescription only treatment and is not for pregnant women or people allergic to its ingredients. talk to your doctor or visit myplenity.com to learn more. back on march 30th, 2020, it was a few weeks into the pandemic. we were all trying to understand what was coming at us, doctor deborah birx, the white house coronavirus task force coordinator, did an interview on the today show where she gave a fatality prediction. >> doctor fauci said yesterday, we could see millions of cases in this country, and as many as 1 to 200,000 deaths. do you agree with that analysis? is that a worst-case scenario, or something that we should prepare ourselves for as potentially likely? >> so, in the flu models, the worst-case scenario is between 1.6 million and 2.2 million deaths. that is the protection if you do nothing. so, we've never really done everything that we're doing, we've put them into a model, we've looked at the italy data with their self isolation. and that's where we come up with if we do things together well, almost perfectly, we can get in the range of 100,000 to 200,000 fatalities. we don't even want to see that. >> i know, but you kind of take my breath away with that. because when i hear you saying is that sort of the best-case scenario, if everything works, and we will do the things you're asking them to do, maybe you could hold the deaths to 1 to 200,000 in this country. >> well, the best-case scenario would be 100 percent of americans doing precisely what is required. but we are not sure, based on the data that your sharing from around the world and seeing these pictures, that all of america is responding in a uniform way to protect one another. so we also have to factor that in. cities that don't social distance, they don't stay at home, that believe you can have social interactions, the believe you can have gatherings and homes of 20 and ten people even. that is going to spread the virus, even if everyone looks well. >> it's really striking to watch out again, isn't it? 100 to 200,000 lives lost in this country, if we do things almost perfectly. i remember that, i actually remember pouring over models from england in february, and how much of a shock was to see the numbers. now a little bit more than two years after that interview 1 million people are dead. this is the part in the coffee where i try to put that in context. there's no actual way to put it in context, honestly. it's a number and atoll and society wide experience, than in many ways i find rebels against context, against us truly grasping it. not something that ed young has tried to do at -- the atlantic, the coldest come the third most common cause of death in the u.s., which means it's also the third leading cause of grief, he joins me now. >> you've covered this as well as anyone in the country, you've been a cherished resource on the show. and i've been reading your writing about the morning here and trying to reckon with it, i guess that an individual level how do you think about this particular milestone? >> i think it just marks a monumental national tragedy, i think we should see it as the disgrace that it is. not only because the numbers are so extraordinarily high and so disproportionately high given the advantages and the supposed preparedness in america had going into this. it's also a tragedy because we have collectively normalized to it so much. that so many people could have -- the fourth and fifth deadliest months of the pandemic so far were january in february of this year, and yet in those months the narrative was largely about how things were going to be okay. my old variant bubba were going back to normal. people were still dying in those months, and those people left behind loved ones who were grieving the people that they lost at a moment when society told them to go back to normal. i just got a -- covid grieve or share their experience, there are dozens and hundreds of such accounts. people are not okay. the consequence of 1 million deaths, is at least 9 million people had a whole ripped in their lives and a hole that is not closing, even for people who lost loved ones two months ago, their wounds are low raw, their grief is prolongs. we need to do much matter, i'd giving them the recognition, validation, and grace that they need to even begin to cope with the losses they've experienced. >> i think the thing that i keep coming back to, i think a little bit as i watched the war in ukraine play out. the human ability to acclimate, the human ability to soldier on, what should people in the most dire catastrophes in the ukraine and posting social media messages and finding humor and soldiering on amid the worst kind of devastation. i think i had some vision of catastrophe that was more sort of like singular in spectacular in some way than with this has been. which is just that this sort of weird surreal juxtaposition between disruptions to life, grinding levels of death and breathe, and some are sets normalcy all sort of moving next to each other for a very long period of time. >> i agree, this is in like a war or a hurricane or a earthquake you can't see the devastation around you. i look at my window, and things look okay. i can't see the 9 million holes in peoples lives. i can't see the traumatized health care workers. the ruin inflicted by the pandemic is harder to see. you actually have to talk to people and empathize with their stories, which is something that i think that we are constitutionally a bit bad at. it's also the fact that the deaths were not spread equally. they disproportionately affected black and brown communities, older people, poor people, sick and immunocompromised people. america's nothing if not excellent at ignoring mass death when it affects the most marginalized and vulnerable populations. this is something that i think countries to that moral tragedy, and it is one of the reasons why people have normalized so much. people in positions of power, in politics in our industry in the media were among the first an early as to get vaccinated. and the minute a lot of them felt they were safe, they declared that it was safe with no regard for the dramatic residual risk that some group still bear, or the long term a cumulative cost that aren't going away like the grief that is holding the people that i'm talking about. we need to re-focus our attention to the people who suffer the most. i'm not sure that's what we're doing, i'm not saying that. >> you know, it's interesting, because i think back to the flu pandemic of 1917, and the thing -- most people didn't learn about it, there is a book about it in the early outs by john barron's, it was a sort of oh my god it was a larger death toll than world war i, why do we never hear about it? now, here we are, at the end of this period and it's like oh, they just didn't talk about it because they were so traumatized. they wanted to forget it. and suddenly, that which seemed inexplicable at the beginning of the pandemic, i'm watching it happen in realtime in our lives. >> right, 100,000 people died, the new york times had a big splash-y front page with incalculable, what is ten times incalculable? we're not even thinking about that question. we're sort of moving past it. there is one thing that gives me hope, one thing that suggests that we won't just forget. which is just of so many people have been affected. i've seen so many grassroots groups, springing up in the wake of this tragedy. people united in their grief and their losses, who are trying very hard to make sure that their loved ones are not forgotten, that the lessons from these years are not forgotten. i think there are enough of them, then i wonder if that sufficient to make us remember. i would hope so but you know, it shouldn't be on the people who have lost the most, it shouldn't be on the people who are still mourning their parents or their children to carry this burden of re-fashioning our society, it should surely be on the rest of us. but >> ed yong, as always it's great pleasure to have you on. that's all in on thursday night, msnbc prime with ali velshi starts good evening now. chris, good to see you, thanks, and have a good night, thanks for you at home for joining us at home for msnbc prime. quick reminder that the rachel maddow show now airs here every monday