goal -- the policy objective is a nationwide and total ban on abortion, on women's rights in that area. the supreme court is very close to a ruling that, according to a lot of available evidence, could open the door to that option. in other words, the supreme court can make it easier for states to decide how to regulate or ban or limit abortion, and if they do that, essentially what many see would be gutting roe v. wade. if they do that, well, i'm about to show you the evidence that conservatives are moving towards trying to make abortion something that people don't have access to in many or most parts of the country. this is something top republicans have been planning. >> as we stand here today, we may well be on the verge of an era when the supreme court sends roe vs. wade to the ash heap of history where it belongs. >> that was mike pence's view referring to the case i mentioned in the news right now and that there is a conservative blueprint now being basically worked on and explored so they can hit go as soon as the supreme court rules in this case and gives what many expect, and really what these conservative operatives expect to be a green light during these limits. the idea is to make access to abortion basically functionally impossible in most cases, and it's the ground work to get to what has long been a goal of the right-wing movement from everything on how people are selected to the courts and supreme court, to who is allowed to run on the republican ticket. a nationwide abortion ban. anti-abortion groups and their allies in congress, are, quote, meeting behind the scenes. that is to say, currently meeting in secret, working on this national plan for a strict nationwide plan on abortion, according to new reporting from "the washington post." there's two republican senators who are clearly on board, including joni ernst, the iowa senator who would introduce a bill. in texas, republics paid no apparent political price for banning abortion there, either. now, that may not be true in many other states, but it shows you how serious this effort is, even before the supreme court has ruled. republicans eyeing a fight that would clearly ignite a political firestorm. it would motivate their base, but it would also galvanize not only opponents of this type of regulation, not only people in the pro choice community, or people who think this goes to far, but other americans, including some, who were open to the data, were open to trumpism and voted for trump. because depending on how to ask the question, about 60% of americans oppose the bans but it's something the right keeps on pushing. >> millions of children lose their right to life every year because of abortion. >> we can't just pass abortion pans, but we've got to maintain godly leadership. >> as we stand here today, we may well be on the verge of an era when the supreme court sends roe vs. wade to the ash heap of history where it belongs. >> this is a kind of story that is both old and new. old because it has been such a long running effort buck new because there is such a clear and potential breakthrough among these groups. i'm joined by "new york times" michelle goldberg and cornell a msnbc analyst. michelle, how seriously should people take this before the supreme court decision comes down? >> i think they should take it extremely seriously. it's always obviously been the goal. look, i would be shocked if roe vs. wade still exists by the end of this summer. you know, i think initially when the supreme court accepted this case, this dobbs case, the 15-week abortion ban in mississippi there was some debate about whether they were going to just gut roe vs. wade or overturn it outright. their abortion jurisprudence since then makes it seem that much more likely they're not concerned about public perception and are willing to scrap it entirely. the people going around saying abortion is murder, some of whom believe and it some of whom are cynical, is happy it's not going to be happening in just some states. their goal is to treat this like a crime. i think, look, we're not going to see, obviously, a federal abortion ban as long as joe biden is president. if and when there's a republican president, a republican trifecta, of course they're going to try to do this, and i wouldn't be surprised if they get rid of the filibuster in order to pass something like this through the senate. >> hmm. cornell? >> yeah, i mean, the key thing here for politically speaking, electorally speaking is that fear point of, what happens if republicans are in charge? to your point, ari, they can fire up their base around this. ari, the base of voters who quite frankly don't want roe v. wade overturned is a lot bigger than your base of voters who do want it overturned. and the key question puzzling democrats going into the midterm, event seen it, is an enthusiasm gap. the majority of voters, that large majority of biden's coalition, certain segments just aren't enthusiastic and mobilized. this is classic republican overreach. they are giving democrats an opportunity to energize and mobilize women all across this country. look, you know, there was -- republicans lost college-educated white women by three points last election. it was something that obama didn't win college educated white women, hillary didn't win college educated white women. this move by trump and this radical movement and attack on women's rights and moving women steadily away, they can't win the midterms in women in the suburbs are energize around this issue. we've seen single issue voting on the right. it would be really interesting if they strip away women's rights and we start seeing that single issue vote going into the midterm around women voters. but also men voters. ari, it's not just women who don't want roe v. wade to go away. it's also a whole lot of men who don't want roe v. wade to go away. >> the 60%, there's clearly people who support trump, but don't support this. as cornell says, that may be a wedge. that doesn't deal with the short-term sweeping human rights impact. michelle mentioned what would happen if both houses take back -- which has the biden white house, according to some reporting, trying to make the midterms more about trump. they want to have a dominant emphasis on the party's if i can six with the big lie. looking back ward. i want to mention democrats did try a version of this in v.a.. youngkin was kind of a mini trump, but he found a few ways to argue he wasn't a carbon copy. voters seemed to buy the distinction. now we have republicans, though, running, who do look more trumpy, especially on this obsession with the race that trump lost --. 13 election deniers now running the top prosecutor job in 13 states, attorney general. 23 more running for secretary of state across 19 states. 53 election deniers are also on the ballot for the governor. this is an obsession. among the examples, carrie lake in arizona. >> i'm not going to take orders, though, from an illegitimate president like joe biden. arizona is going to do things the arizona way. >> cornell, i don't imagine you can defend the entire record in v.a. last year for the democrats, because it didn't quite land. just one state. there's other fact force. we have discussed them. when you read a politico article like this, give it to us in plain english to the viewers. is this what the white house is thinking? can this work? is this overstated? >> it's complicated. when you look at v.a. -- and i'm a virginian from norfolk. there's a couple things that you've got to keep in mind. sit a pattern that you see in problematic off years for democrats, where terry mccullough got more votes than northam, but youngkin got conservatively more votes than the last republican there did, and we saw a surge of republican and miniature surge of democrats but not the same surge of democrats that you saw republican. that's the classic setup for midterms where you have in midterms 8% or 9% turnout difference between presidential on year and off year. guess who are pulling back? they're younger voters, unmarried women, they're minority voters. so we need to engage and energize and energize these voters. i do think that democrats have to make this a referendum, not a referendum on biden, which republicans wanted to make it, but a choice. a choice between democrats and republicans, and again, whatever republicans have to offer. what are republican answers to any of these problems? what are republicans trying to do. >> >> i'm going to jump in. cornell, does that mean trumpfying everything or not, in your view? >> i think the whole republican party is now maga. if you look at the hate, it's everything from attacking lgbtq rights, attacking women's rights, doubling down on racial -- on racial -- on racial dog whistles, banning books. none of this is mainstream middle of america politics. that's got to be the choice, whether you want more hate or want compromise in bringing people together. whether you want to attack young gay children or you want to -- all children to get the same access and equal education that prepare them to win the future. that has to be a choice. republican democrats have to disqualify republicans. >> yeah. michelle, i want to ask you about the flipside of this, which is in real households, in states red and blue, people are paying higher prices for everything than they've ever paid before. it's a real issue. they're going to blame the encumbent. that's what we've seen in the past. this was a topical punch line over the weekend when trevor noah was going at joe biden at the white house dinner. take a look. >> these people have been so hard on you, which i don't get. i really don't. i think ever since you've come into office things are really looking up. gas is up, rent is up, food is up, everything. >> fact check -- true. several tossup seats in the senate are currently held by democrats, which put him on defensive. parties when you look at the generic polls are tide. but the average of polls has shown republicans leading. that's the average you see there, which puts pressure on democrats to figure out, michelle, how to change at least some of the momentum. but the economy's not helping them do that. your thought on the punch line and the truth of it? >> yeah, that's the limit of any of these discussions about messaging and tactics, right? some of this is just baked into the fundamentals, both of the economy, which are not good, which are not good by many different measures, and then, you know, the sort of typical pattern of midterm elections. and then i think there's a cyclical effect, which is that the more democrats feel like they're staring down doom and staring down two year of paralysis and, you know, sort of pointless investigations, the more they want to disengage. i think it's very difficult under these circumstances to get people motivated and to get people to really engage in the way that they were when donald trump was president. so there's a little bit of desperation in hoping that donald trump's return to twitter will spur people to turn out. i think it's more likely maybe that the end of roe vs. wade will light a fire under the people who have pulled back their activism since joe biden was elected. right, but some of this is just not about messaging. some of this is about material realities. >> yeah, material realities. cornell, as an adviser to presidents like obama, what do you say to that? because inflation is now and tomorrow, whatever spending bills passed, profession made on covid, to many people feels like the past. >> i do think you have to tell your story, and to that point broadly that you were just making, it is -- look, democrats got to tell their story, and democrats got to buck up here. joe biden's out there fighting and he's moving bipartisan legislation. he's fighting -- he's holding a global coalition against russia. you know, he's managing covid. his numbers -- approval numbers from covid are coming back above water. it's like a jay-z line, no love in the heart of the city, sensitive thugs, y'all need hugs, right? democrats you got do better. you sensitive thugs you all need hugs. we got fight here. we got a guy with a pretty darn good track record, and by the way, you've moved powerful legislation out of the house. a lot stuck in the senate, but you've got make your case for. that like senator murphy said, we're fighting drug companies for lower priced insulin for kids. they're fighting disney to make disney hate on kids. i think there's a clear path for a powerful choice. democrats have got to buck up and start fighting. >> ain't no love in the heart of the beltway, cornell, i feel you. >> ain't no love. >> i feel you. on that accurate -- perhaps accurate but downcast note, we do fit in a break. i want to thank cornell and michelle for talking us through several stories. let me tell folks what's coming up. news out of the january 6th committee, three republican lawmakers under heat. why did some of them think what they were doing is criminal? we have the evidence. and going into the primary tomorrow -- the ohio primary, we'll bring you coverage on that. news on that front. and then by the end of the hour, i'm joined for the first time by best-selling novelist don winslow. we talk culture, rhetoric, and why he says republican attacks on democracy are making him turn full-time to politics. he'll explain, tonight. onight teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. ♪ it's the most wonderful time of the year ♪ there's no question it's something it's spring! claritin provides non-drowsy symptom relief from over 200 indoor and outdoor allergens, day after day. feel the clarity— and make today the most wonderful time of the year. live claritin clear. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ ♪("i've been everywhere" by johnny cash) ♪ ♪i've traveled every road in this here land!♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪of travel i've had my share, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere.♪ ♪♪ why give your family just any eggs when they can enjoy the best? eggland's best. the only eggs with more fresh and delicious taste. plus, superior nutrition. which is now more important than ever. only eggland's best. here's some news you don't typically see. this is a rarity across most of american history. congress putting the pressure to here from its own members, specifically the january 6th committee wants three republican members with links to trump to testify. congressman ronny jackson, andy digs and mo brooks. several of them link in the many ways to the january 6th rally and beyond. there are new letters, which includes evidence of what the committee already has and points to republican lawmakers at times fearing that their own election plot was criminal. let me reheat -- the republicans who are being asked to tell their side of the story, and maybe they have good defenses arguments to offer, but they were the ones according to evidence, who thought their own plot might be criminal. these lawmakers are showing their awareness of cup pablt in plans to try to overturn the election. with that in mind, let me tell you what you learned. in this new letter to congressman biggs, the committee states he was a part pant in an effort to seek presidential pardon for activities take ton overturn election results for trump. now, this is not some random analysis. this is not saying that law professors or commentators thought this was illegal. it's saying they, these republican members of congress were seek pardons. well, a pardon is an admission of guilt. pardons are for criminals. if you are a lawmaker, one who writes laws, you probably know a lot more than the random average person of what the law is s whether or not you're over it, and if you are -- we said what we said and we did what we did. this is interest. pretty new. then the panel talks about how some house republicans, plural -- that would suggest there's other evidence about people that hasn't been revealed yet. as reported there are public hearings planned. and then there's the evidence about why this shows consciousness of guilt. the letter to biggs asked for specific planning details, for example, dating as far back as christmas 2020. there was a discussion about trying to get a plan for pence, who would just refuse to count certain states' electoral votes. if that sounds familiar, it overlaps with or may entail the so-called green bay sweep and other plans reported on here that may try to get pence to just not count the states that voted for biden. so you have that plotting between these members of congress and the white house. it now is looking like it was earlier and more formal than many people knew at the time. what's going on december 21st, this group was trying to make sure they knew what pence's view of the requirements were so they could comply with them. trump aid peter navarro, months later, admitted on this very program that they had this plot. he seemed to think it was legal. that might be different from them, and he said they had 100 people ready to go. >> we had over 100 congressman and senators on capitol hill ready to implement the sweep. we were going to challenge the results of the election in the six battleground states. >> that was a big admission. he said at the time and has insisted that he thought what he was planning was legal, and he has every right to say what he says and have his view of it. he was later held in contempt because he refused to speak to the committee, which is a related issue. while mr. gnar var roe insisd it was legal, some of the others who were going to put their necks on the line and do it, some were worried that or something around that was illegal. so you have questions for congressman jackson that are also about other potential illegal coordination. they were worried they would break the law on the floor of congress or were they worried about their contact with others who were trespassing on the floors of congress? like the oath keepers. some of its members have been charged. some have pled guilty to conspiracy. now we're learning there are encrypted tests the group exchanged on january 6th mentioning that congressman, saying he was on the move, needed protection, and he had critical data they believed that must be predicted. there's stewart rhodes, the oath keeper leader who replied, give him my cell. so, that is a lot for this committee to chew on. as for mo brooks who showed up in body armor, the committee wants answers about what he was revealing on tv about what trump was secretly saying. >> the president has asked many toe rescind the election of 2020. >> you said that's illegal. you can't do that. what did he ask and what did you tell him? >> he always brings up, we've got rescind the election. we've got take joe biden out and put me in now. >> he still says that. >> yes. >> put me in coach, i'm ready to play. you get the reference. but that was 16 months after 2020's election. this committee is telling brooks the comments suggests there's evidence of trump's intent to, quote, restore himself to power through unlawful means. the committee here is serious about pulling on all these threats. they're also giving these members an opportunity, because there's a good chance when all this stuff comes out in the end when there's the public hearings start in the june and there's a report. some of the members say their views weren't taken into consideration or there was an ignore noxious view of the story. this is a journalist's job, as well, to try to get the information, the whole story, but that would involve in this case, members talking to the committee, that so far they have not agreed to do so. and that comes from the top. kevin mccarthy, that has been on every which way is not complying. same with jim jordan, scott perry. jackson says he won't comply and biggs has said the same. mo brooks has not officially answered. meanwhile, there's pressure in georgia. a grand jury was seated today than interference probe which involves donald trump and his culpability. i'm going to get into all of the above. i have to former district attorney from georgia and melissa murray. they're here when we're back in 60 seconds fortunateliers in 60 seconds fortunatelier ls 99% of plaque bacteria and forms an antibacterial shield. try parodontax active gum health mouthwash. why give your family just ordinary eggs when they can enjoy the best? eggland's best. the only eggs with more fresh and delicious taste. plus, superior nutrition. because the way we care is anything but ordinary. ♪♪ ♪ ♪ ♪i'm so defensive,♪ ♪i got bongos thumping in my chest♪ ♪and something tells me they don't beat me♪ ♪ ♪ ♪he'd better not take the ring from me.♪ we're back with nyu law professor melissa murray and michael jay moore. we're walking through new revelations coming out of the january 6th probe. professor murray, what does it tell thaw several members of congress were interest in the reportedly getting pardons for themselves. >> well, duh. this was a coup. of course it was criminal activity, and they clearly knew there was at least something afoot that would require a pardon. so the fact that you're requesting a pardon suggests, as you said, that you've done something that requires a pardon, and so the idea that this was ordinary lawmakers, the ordinary course of these individuals' roles as representatives of their constituents, they know that this wasn't the case. if you're asking for a pardon, you've done something that's gone beyond the pale. >> michael, this may seem lawyerly -- three lawyers here on the screen -- are discussing the mental state, but as anyone who's watched law and order or "my cousin vinny" knows, what's in your mind, what you intend matters. yes, if you have a criminal mind set, you might try to lie about and it cover it up, but that's what trials try to do, try to get to it. a car accident is different than trying to murder someone with your car, but both involve some of the same physicality. it seems important here, both in georgia where you're an expert and in the committee work that overlaps the committee probe. i go exhibit "b," which you can speak on the members of congress and the other person who thought a pardon might be needed, which was kevin mccarthy, who took it as a given in secret that donald trump would be surging for a pardon because he was such an obvious election criminal. take a listen. >> now, i haven't had a discussion with the dems that, if he did resign, would that happen? now, this is one personal fear i have. i do not want to get into any conversations about pence pardoning. >> what does all this tell you as a prosecutor and investigator, mr. moore, about the mind set of those members of the republican house. who again, i want to emphasize, were sympathetic of the goal of keeping trump in office, and sympathetic to trump, but who privately throughout there was a lot of crime going on? >> i think your analysis is exactly right that they knew what they were doing was wrong, and they took the position the end justified the means. they would seek a pardon, discuss a pardon, figure out how to do it as long as they could somehow figure out how to preserve trump in office. this is probably just another tape from mccarthy. you have something elsewhere he says something totally opposite. you can't put much stock in his position. but it does tell something about the state of mind. we have to prove intent of we have to have the mens rea, for you lawyers the stuff they grill on in the first year of law school, look at somebody's state of mind. did they intend to do what they're being charged with doing. if you want to look at a simple analogy, somebody who killed somebody in a fight, the idea that it was premeditated. did somebody have to consciousness to think about it, plan it. these texts and the discussion we have been having indicate that that's exactly what happened. they knew that this was wrong, they knew that it was going to be a violation of law, so much so they discussed ways to clean up the mess they were going to take, if as long as they could keep their king on the throne. >> professor? >> i think that's exactly right. the real question here for any crime is what's the state of the individual at the time they're undertaking the activity? and here it seems not only was this premeditated, not only did they have some understanding that what they were doing was beyond the pale, constitute a coup under any other circumstances, they tried to make provisions to ensure that they would not be on the hook afterwards. >> mr. moore, turning to georgia, where i mentioned they've impanelled this grand jury, if somebody's watching and they say, well, i feel like i've heard this one before. there's another probe into something donald trump did. there's a lot of noise about following the facts and the law. in new york, they had a couple d.a. candidates who all said pretty similar stuff. then they went forward with that probe and shut it down. they do have open cases against other people, high people in the trump org, but not donald trump. what do you say to someone who looks at this and says, why should i follow this? or do you see it combined with the tape and blatant efforts to steal the votes of georgia citizens to cancel out 11,000 of them kind of a masser voter fraud, if it had been achieved, do you see this as something that somehow could lead to trouble for donald trump. >> >> i think this has taken an extraordinarily long time. there was a clean case and targeted case that could be made with the idea thaw charged the former president based on the phone call alone, and so now we've gotten into this sort of morass of we've got primaries coming up in georgia. there's going to have to be a delay of so it doesn't look too political. if you're wondering what's going to happen, this is the start gun at the beginning of the race, because there's nothing that's going to be decided by the investigative grand jury. all these folks are going to do is here some evidence, be able to subpoena witnesses, look at documents and at the end of the day, make a report. they cannot issue an indictment. if they make a report or they don't, at some point, the district attorney will make a decision whether or not she wants to move forward. even then, and at the end of the month when we see witnesses, i think you're likely to see some of the same defense tactics that we've seen in other case around the country involving trump and the organization. you'll see people exerting executive privilege, presidential immunity. whether or not there should be service of the subpoena, whether or not they honor the subpoena in georgia, and whether to transfer the federal case or move it to the federal court, because he was a -- >> so i'm running right up against your time limit, but sounds like -- although we're not doing predictions here, sounds like you don't think they're taking the most aggressive or assertive stance down there. >> i don't like to second guess the prosecutor. i think she thinks she's doing the best job she's doing. she may have evidence i haven't seen. >> you don't like to do it, but you're low-key doing it. >> i'd like to have -- i think this could have been something that was done as a targeted approach. i think that could have brought this matter to a head fairly quickly, and we can move on them tells me she's look at expanding the investigation, maybe not just trying to catch the spired but look for other people she can get in the web. we'll see what happens after the investigative grand jury, whether or not there's an indictment, but this is just the going of the story, we're nowhere near the end of this thing. >> i feel like there's a charlotte's web reference lurking somewhere, but i haven't read it recently enough to do it. >> there's some pig, ari, they're some pig. >> there we go. that's why we book you guys to finish it up. >> professor ari, michael jay moore, both of you rocking the book shelves we would expect of such learned individuals. thanks for coming on "the beat." coming up, donald trump makes a blunder that could hurt the never trumper who's now pro-trump that got trump as endorsement in ohio. we're going break it down. barack obama's disinformation warnings and the attacks on american democracy. as mentioned a special guest tonight, the best-selling guest don winslow who's so politically outspoken. we'll get into why coming up. wp . the memories they create. or the spin they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, you can achieve clearer skin. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. otezla can cause serious allergic reactions. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. this is the planning effect. if rayna's thinking about retirement, she'll get some help from fidelity to envision what's possible. fidelity can help her prioritize her goals by looking at her full financial picture. plus they'll help her pick an investment strategy, one she's comfortable with. and with a clear plan to get to retirement, rayna can enjoy wherever she's headed next. that's the planning effect, from fidelity. meet ron. that man is always on. and he's on it with jardiance for type 2 diabetes. his underhand sky serve? on fire. his grilling game? on point. and his a1c? ron is on it. with the once-daily pill, jardiance. jardiance not only lowers a1c... it goes beyond to reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease. and jardiance may help you lose some weight. jardiance may cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. a once-daily pill that goes beyond lowering a1c? on it with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from on it with jardiance. overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good. plain aspirin could be hurting your stomach. vazalore 325 liquid-filled aspirin capsule is clinically shown in a 7 day study to cause fewer ulcers than immediate release aspirin. vazalore. the first liquid-filled aspirin capsules...amazing! now we turn to a very special guest, the best-selling novelist, don winslow, the author of 22 novels. several you may have red or know about from being adapted into films like "salve annals" with john travolta andby. >> you come to my house, threaten my daughters. you think i'm the type of guy that doesn't have cameras all over my house. >> doesn't matter to me. after i whack and your daughters -- >> winslow focuses on gangsters to what he sees as corrupt today, including donald trump's hold over the republican party. he's advanced a parallel online, applying his expertise, including story telling to politics. videos that have gone viral featuring springsteen and jeff daniels. >> cannot sustain this for another four years. ♪ i heard the voices of friends vanished and gone ♪ >> i'm jeff daniels. i grew up in michigan. lived here most of my life. still do. i voted for joe biden. >> now mr. winslow says that he is going to focus more on politics than fiction. a semiretirement or maybe just a change of gears. we'll get into all of it, because as mentioned he is my special guest right now, best-selling guest don winslow. the new book "city on fire", out now. thanks for joining me. >> thanks for having me, ari, i appreciate it. >> what does it mean when you say, with all of your followers and background, that you're focusing on politics? is this a retirement interest, or is this a new job in. >> neither. it's a passion. it's something i felt that i had to do. i think the country's in an existential moment. i think american democracy is in an existential moment. it was in 2016, it was in 2020. i'm afraid it's going to be in 2024, and it certainly is now. and so i thought, you know, i'm going to use whatever talents i have to fight this fight. >> one of your talents is making those airplane rides going by faster. who among us haven't -- >> i'm glad, thank you. yeah, appreciate that. >> swiped one of those books, you know, on the way in. and that's where people might know your name, which means they like something about the way you see the world, explain the world, tell stories, right? we all make sense of things through stories. and so let's look at someone else who -- you'll tell me what you think, but i noticed before he was president the barack obama is a darn good writer among other things. here he is talking about what you and him both have done from time to time, write up stories. take a look. >> what do you think's going to happen in this midterm election? >> it's too early to say. i think the biden administration has overcome some extraordinary circumstances. but the underlying economy, there's a good story to tell. democrats have to go out there and tell the story. ultimately the voters decide on this thing. >> tell the story. do you agree with him that that's important? and do you think that democrats are doing it well, or not? >> absolutely it's important. i completely agree with him. i think some of the democrats are telling the story well. and i see more of a growing appetite now to tell the story in plain language and sometimes tough words, and to really fight back against the story that the republicans are telling. you know, the republicans will say anything. they'll call people child molesters. that's as low as it gets. so we need to find ways of telling a story to the american people, telling them the truth, and doing it in plain, simple language, and yes, sometimes with the use of images. images that are meant to relay to people and not manipulate people. >> what makes a good story? >> it touches the human soul, the human mind, touches the human heart. what makes a good story is it touches real human needs, real human desires. the other thing i think that makes a good story is it touches human values. i think that's what we're missing. i think we've cedeed patriotism to the other side, to people who would patriot the american flag through the capitol as they violently assault it. ceded patriotism to people who would have donald trump's image emblazoned on a flag as they assault our capitol and democracy. we can't do that. we have to say, we have basic american value, too. they mean something, and they're good for the country. >> when you look at the long-term fascination with crime, with the mafia, gangs, way more people consume this stuff than act on it. clearly there can be art where you watch "the godfather" and you put it away. or you listen to an album that deals with violence, but you don't do it. donald trump appealed to the idea that maybe you can get away with more. we see more open kind of can did appeals to might makes right, to bullying, volence as you just mentioned and more blatant support for that than we have in recent air ras, although you can go through history. what do you think he's tapping into? do you think it exists more on one side than the other? and how do you stem that, because to paraphrase ice cube, who you may know of, he said in 2016, donald trump is acting like a boss and a gangster, it may be phoney, but people love that kind of talk and bravado. >> he's certainly acting like a boss and like a gangster, and i think some of that's inspiration. the problem is, he's getting away wit. the insurrection was, what, 16 months ago? has donald trump been subpoenaed? has eric trump been subpoenaed? have any of the republicans who were, in my opinion, accomplices before, during, and after the fact been subpoenaed, much indicted for treason we all saw? we saw donald trump acting like a mob boss on a fell phone call to georgia. i know thatth because i saw it on your show. we all saw it. we saw donald trump acting like a mob boss when he sent a mob to the capitol. >> don winslow, good to have you on here. i'll remind folks, the new book is "city on fire." as for these trump backed candidates with voting tomorrow in key primaries, well, watch what happens when trump can't even remember who he endorsed. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. i don't just play someone brainy on tv - i'm an actual neuroscientist. and i love the science behind neuriva plus. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? 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"the reidout" with joy reid is up next. ♪♪ >> good evening, earn. we begin "the reidout" tonight with the defense of democracy at home and abroad. over the weekend house speaker nancy pelosi met with ukranian president volodymyr zelenskyy in kyiv vowing that the u.s. would support ukraine until the fight is done. pelosi, second in line to the presidency, is the highest ranking american leader to visit ukraine since the start of russia's invasion. here at home at the white house correspondents dinner in washington, d.c. we heard similar messages from president biden and host trevor noah who shared comedic and urgent takes on stepping up to save democracy right here in the u.s. >> i stood here tonight, and i made