ex-president accountable for trying to end american democracy as we know it on january 6, a moment mccarthy desperately denies took place at all is at tape. release of audio obtained by msnbc reported originally by "the new york times." journalist martin and burns, it is a snippet of a 2021 phone call during which mccarthy tills the house republican caucus that trump admitted responsibility for the attack on the capitol. >> let me be clear to all of you and i am very clear to the president. he bears responsibilities for his words and actions. i asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened. does he feel bad about what happened? he told me does have some responsibility for what happened. and he needed to acknowledge that. >> the gulf between the republican party's 24/7 disinformation fueled whitewash campaign of the insurrection. remember the reasons calling it legitimate political discourse and tourists? what republican officials actually thought and actually said about the january 6 attack on the u.s. capitol has never been as large as it is in the wake of the release of the tapes. this is mccarthy on january 10. >> i know this is not fun. i know this is not great. i know this is very tough but what i want to do, especially through here is, i don't want to rush things. i want everybody to have all the information needed. i've had it with this guy. what he did is unacceptable. nobody can defend that, and nobody should defend it. >> nobody but me. wow. reported yesterday mccarthy said he'd tell donald trump to resign for inciting the january 6 insurrection on that very same call. mccarthy denied the reporting yesterday calling it totally false and wrong. the calls are tape. released here on msnbc and rachel maddow's show last night. it gets to the heart of why mccarthy isn't just a liar or hypocrite and gaming all a host of ways to end donald trump's dangerous presidency. the 27th amendment or a pardon for trump by vice president pence who would be president and not discussed unless you as mccarthy thinks donald trump will leave maybe facing criminal exposure? >> liz, are you on the phone? >> yeah. i'm here. i guess there's a question. when we were talking about the 25th amendment resolution and you asked if, you know, what happens if it gets there after he's gone. is there a chance? are you hearing that he might resign? is there any reason to think that might happen? >> i've had a few discussions. my gut tells me no. i'm seriously thinking of having that conversation with him tonight. i haven't talked to him in a couple days. from what i know of him, you guys all know him, too. do you think he'd ever back away? what i think i'm going to do is i'm going to call him. this is what i think. we know that it'll pass the house. i think there's a chance it will pass the senate even when he's gone. and i think there's a lot of different ramifications for that. i haven't had a discussion with the dems that if he did resign would that happen? this is one personal fear i have. i do not want do get in any conversations about pence pardoning. again the only discussion i would have with him is that i think this will pass. and it would be my recommendation you should resign. that would be my take but i don't think he'll take it but i don't know. >> let's bring in the panel. jackie is a congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post." also with us former acting solicitor and legal adviser neal katyal is here and miles taylor is here. before we dive into the extraordinary content of the tapes we have to stop i think and not skip passed the fraud that's been perpetrated on this country at the direction of kevin mccarthy who saw trump's conduct as egregious as i do. as the three of you uncovered. in the reporting and analysis. the fraud perpetrated on the country as the leader of the republican party is one of the ghoulish things i have seen in politics, neal. >> was that to me? sorry. >> yes. >> so yes. i completely agree with you. mccarthy's probably sitting at home praying that marjorie taylor greene will say something insane for people to forget about what he did this weekend but i don't think it will work because this shows cowardice and the revelations show that the republican party was far more in it coming to january 6. we talked about mike lee. someone i had respect for and he looks like a secret coup plot jer the fraud on the country he's definitely part of it. he wasn't the only one and to me it's just so sad reflecting not just the ambition of the politicians but it's the total destrix of principle. what you called the backbone at the start of the show. as they say absolute power corrupts absolutely but in a pimpbl it looks like for mccarthy the chance to be speaker of the house will do the trick for him and for resignation according to the tapes before he was against it. i guess what i want to say is this may sound naive but i came to washington in 1996 because i saw a shared purpose. sure republicans i disagreed with and dems, too. it was so much on the up and up trying to make society better and people disagreed but there was a role for principle and honesty and backbone. and that's all gone now. it is just people like mccarthy trying to get ahead. sag anything. do anything. lie to the american people to do this. it is so sad. the last thing i'll say is just like so much with the republican caucus now that drama here is like high school. mccarthy denies talking smack about trump and then the friends secretly tape recording him the whole time. i don't know if it's next statement is an instagram apology. it is ridiculous. >> yeah. i want to not gloss over the importance of investigative journalism. what we know is not revealed by people that sort of saw the frauds and saw the misconduct. a lot of it uncovered by reporters. i want to play another piece of sound about how much there is left to hear with our own ears. there are more tapes. listen to this. >> we have a lot more on tape from this period which is at the highest levels of american politics, sensitive, delicate and high stacks and have it all on tape and i think tell a very different story about the period than the story that many people are trying to tell right now. >> i guess my question for you, jackie, what is the sense? you have some great reporting about the damage control that mccarthy started to do. you write this. former president trump and kevin mccarthy spoke on the house thursday night about the audio of mccarthy saying that trump should resign and the capitol according to two people. trump wasn't upset about the remarks and glad that the republican leader didn't follow through and trump saw as a sign of his continued grip on the party. they spoke a private conversation anonymously. that's more ominous. trump knows that mccarthy knows what he did and trump knows the brute power to dominate mccarthy is so complete he's not losing sleep over this. >> right. this goes back to so many of i think what our conversations end up coming back to. trump's grip on the republican party and this is proof in the pudding that trump sees himself and pretty nonplussed about and was sort of reveling in this controlled -- iron grip he has on the power and the leverage over minority leader mccarthy. doesn't mean he has to go on a forgiveness tour. kiss the ring at mar-a-lago. but the president views this as a -- former president views this as a reinforcement of the fact that trumpism is still well and alive and mccarthy didn't call for him to resign but the one line -- we can talk about the dynamic of the party and the speakership battles and i can't get out of my head a line in that tape that mccarthy said which was, this is one personal fear. i don't want to get into conversations about vice president pence pardoning. that captures why the committee wants to speak to mccarthy because he was legitimately worried that trump would leave getting a pardon for criminal acts and almost insinuates that that the former president committed criminal act there is. so i think the timing of the tape is bad timing for a number of reasons and reinforces why the committee wants to talk to people like mccarthy, jim jordan and those showing act faces than they were in the days after the january 6, 2021, insurrection. >> it does more than insinuate. looking at the trump pardons. putting the history of presidential pardons aside. trump only used the pardon to pardon political allies by and large for committing crimes! steve bannon pardoned for the felonies. the whole idea that mccarthy didn't want to talk on january 10 or 11 not a pence pardon. assuming that trump would be gone and pence would have to deal with a pardon for the ex-president. it is corroborated by reporting by jackie's colleagues. the white house counsel's office sat there expecting that donald trump would be charged with crimes. complicity and participation and i think it's why there's a bursting exasperation that they continue to glide bo the rule of law. >> you used the phrase that mccarthy is a material witness. you isolate the line from the mccarthy tape. them talking about whether a pardon might come up or not. you don't talk in normal conversations and been in so many in the government about pardons. only reason to talk about a pardon is because you think a crime is committed. when mccarthy says that what ma theens in ordinary english is he thinks a crime was committed. he doesn't want to talk about it and be part of an obstruction of justice conspiracy or anything like that and that's why mccarthy needs to be asked under oath about what this conversation was. and if i have any criticism of the january 6 committee thus far they did a lot of important work but voluntarily asked mccarthy and said tell us about the events and he said no. that's not good enough. we have to be subpoenaing these people to get the truth. voluntary. they have shown they won't talk about this stuff voluntarily. so i think that is the law enforcement mechanism available to the congressional committee to get this. it should be used. it doesn't mean that the rest of the work can't go on while that court battle is proceeding but looks like mccarthy is afraid to tell the truth. the last thing about the pardon is the school of thought that trump wrote a pardon to himself and put it in the pocket. can a president pardon himself? obviously what mccarthy's talking about is the nixon deal in which the president resigns. the vice president pardons. but there's still a possibility floating out there and donald trump is foolish enough and unconstitutional enough to try something like that. >> miles taylor, you were anonymous. you were one of the first people to share with the outside world the conversations about invoking the 25th amendment. what is the feeling or reaction or regret you didn't do that when you hear in the wake of the insurrection most senior republican in the house talking about the 25th amendment again? >> yeah. look. this -- i got to express what neal did. it's personal disappointment and disgust. when i came out and resigned in protest from the administration because i was so frustrated that the people around donald trump saying the same things. they were saying maybe the 25th amendment needs to be invoked. figure out a way to give him enough rope. that's a quote from someone close to donald trump to hang himself metaphorical. they thought he was so disastrous. none had the courage to talk about publicly. mccarthy is in the same category. as someone that remains a reluctant republican is the motive is two tracks. private bravery and public bootlicking. that's what we have seen time and time again. not just recently and after the election why this goes back far in time to 2016. mccarthy sat in paul ryan's office with me when we had conversations about a trump i inoculation plan. he thought donald trump was a disaster, needed to be stopped. would he admit to that today? i hope a reporter asks him. did he subscribe to the trump inoculation plan? why did he change the tune so quickly? the very big concern is someone potentially in line to go be speaker of the house who has been proven to be lying. we say things like show us the receipts. he said it in the past 12 hours. lied to the american people. i think that's disqualifying for the country job. what gives me worry is if mccarthy can't get the speakership i worry now that they'll go further to the right and someone more trumpy and engaged further in the actions to foment the insurrection. i don't see the possibility of mccarthy being sidelined to get better leadership in the republican party. >> jackie, i listened to these tapes. i want to play you pressing mccarthy. talking about the penchant for lying. this is you asking him on january 13th this year if trump admitted responsibility for 1/6 in the phone calls that we have tapes of. >> did you tell house republicans on the january 11 phone call that president trump said that he bore some responsibility for january 6 as the letter indicates? >> i'm not sure what call you are talking about. >> on this show earlier this week at the heart of the legal maneuverings this is a question of whether trump knew he lost or not. mccarthy right now at 4:19 on friday feels like the most important witness to answer whether donald j. trump knew he lost or not. you have to be on the path of understanding that you didn't win and resorting to some extraordinary means to overthrow a result you don't like. cheney is on the other end of this phone call. i don't know if they had the tapes but liz cheney was on the calls and knew what mccarthy represented about the state of mind about the insurrection and the election. how's the committee reacting to the public understanding with more clarity what mccarthy knew about donald trump? >> so i think the committee sort of taken the tactic of try iing to let the news play out itself today and not getting in the way of some news that they have known all along and that really bolsters their case and apply some of the public pressure on people with not cooperated with the committee's mission and in particular about to be really spearheading the movement to discredit and be on the constant attack against the january 6 committee as we head into the phase of the committee doing the public hearings. i think there is a sent. on the other side of things that this news cycle and this resurfacing of the mccarthy comments in a vivid and tangible way underskoefrs the tactical errors that mccarthy made along the way including pulls republicans from the committee to make a statement but in reality actually has hamstrung the defense that republicans are going to be able to putt up against the committee. so it's possible that this ultimately might apply more pressure on the commit tee to nuke the decision not to subpoena fellow members and maybe go ahead and do that to get people like mccarthy, jordan, gosar they have asked to voluntarily appear but at the end of the day as the tapes are clear they have a lot of different ways to obtain information and with someone with a credibility issues and has for years i'm not sure the committee feels like they need him to appear before them. >> neal, is there a scenario where mccarthy is a witness who doj wants to speak to? >> 100%. before judge carter where they said it was more likely than not that donald trump committed various felonies one is a statute 1512, obstruction of an official proceeding. what trump's lawyer eastman said essentially in response is no corrupt intent because we thought the election was legitimately stolen so this question of trump's state of mind is essential for understanding whether or not a federal crime was committed. a federal judge said i think it's more likely than not that trump had that corrupt intent and i think what jackie is pointing to. do you need the information? maybe not. particularly not if you are congress but coming to actually the justice department evaluating whether there was a felony they're going to want to get information from the source itself and no one who has more of that information it looks like than mccarthy so if -- i think it would be inexcusable for the justice department to at this point not seek to have an interview with congressman mccarthy. >> jackie, neal and miles are needed for the entire hour today. when we come back january 6 committee member will be our guest and ask her how the panel moves forward in light of the bombshell that trump's biggest backer in congress said the ex-president admitted some culpability. greene's candidacy for congress is questioned today in trial leading up to january 6. a lot she claims to not remember now about how she spent the last 365 days of life why there's tape and pleads to help her remember. my friend and colleague ali velshi who reported from ukraine and poland and hungary on five weeks straight joins us at the table to talk about today's biggest headlines in the war and what he thinks we need to do next. all those stories and more after a quick break. stay with us. al everly estate, landscaper larry and his trusty crew... were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. 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mostly youtube. and they keep falling. january 6 bombshells that is. like the evidence on tape we just played of really disgruntled and distressed probably republican members angry and very aware of ex-donald trump's cullibleability in inciting the insurrection. apparently just the beginning of the beginning. congressman and committee member congress raskin promised last night the revolutions about to drop in an upcoming public hearings to tell a story that will really blow the roof of the house end quote. on trumpl specifically he says no president has ever come close to doing what happened here to organize an inside coup to bipass the constitutional order. so obvious at the time to republican leadership. that they were desperate out of the trump's presidency and the ties to him. joining us is congresswoman of virginia. thank you for your time today. i have to ask if you heard the tapes before. >> well, i hadn't heard the tapes themselves but i would say that although it may appear surprising it is par for the course for the republican colleagues to say one thing in private and not have the courage to speak up in the same way in the public. >> you are immersed in the evidence. if you have any role in -- we covered the republicans with great skeptd schism and painted an alternate reality to hear mccarthy on tape to say this. this is a perhap fear i have. i don't want to get into conversation about pence pardoning. again, the only discussion to have with him is that i think this will pass meaning the 25th amendment resolution or impeachment resolution and it would be my recommendation you donald trump should resign. i don't think he would take it. do you view the acknowledgement that an assumption is made that pence would have to pardon him after he resigns and the criminal conduct? >> certainly i think any time someone talks about pardon there's implied criminal conduct. can't read the words of what he meant by this will pass. my impression is if he resigns and out of the white house then the tension on it may pass. probably how i interpreted that. but it is certainly implied if you talk about pardoning that you are implying that criminal conduct is in question and as you mentioned earlier in the broadcast there were the indications that former president trump said to mccarthy that he felt some responsibility relative to the events on january 6. tying the pieces together in realtime i would understand why mccarthy woulgd in the back of his mind have the idea that there could have been criminal activity and trump could be interested in seeking a pardon on the other side of this. >> there's been several days of reaction and blowback of reporting that the commit tee amassed enough evidence to make a criminal deferral to doj should they wish to. this acknowledgement from mccarthy that trump potentially looking from a pardon from pence seems to make that debate silly. it seems that turning over the evidence to doj is something that mccarthy on truth serum would agree is necessary. >> that's a good way the look at it. i think it is our responsibility with evidence that shows criminal intent it is our job to pass that on to be evaluated and handled accordingly. >> so many mysteries are solved for the public to hear this tape. liz cheney on "fox news sunday" talking about the need for mccarthy to testify before the republicans had killed the commission. what is the importance of having him testify through whatever means even if you have to subpoena him? >> look. he has information that we need. direct information. conversations directly with the president. he knows what his thought process was. what transpired in these conversations with other republicans in the house and we need to hear and understand from him because the truth is all the way up until january 13 saying the right thing. condemning the violence and then something changed. so what was it that changed and why did it change? that made him start singing a different tune and essentially rather than doing the right thing and holding the former president responsible for the actions but to go aloong with it and show allegiance and bring the caucus other than a few brave people but a small group went along with him and continued to show allegiance to trump rather than duty to the constituents and the constitution and upholding the democracy. >> you are one of the clearest members of congress and the committee on the questions of criminality beyond a preponderance of the evidence and also on the importance of talking to mccarthy. are the debates within the committee this blunt and clear? sounds like you would be supportive of a subpoena for mccarthy if he doesn't testify voluntarily. do i have that right? >> we are as a committee discussing the aspects of the invest. i won't share the internal conversations. we spelled out why we understood he had information and now more than ever we would like to hear from him and like him to share the truth of what happened in conversations with the former president. >> feels like you have questions act what you described of what changed. through the 13th up is up. down is down. mccarthy's words donald trump had to go. talking about a pardon from mike pence who only issues a pardon if he is the president. and then in your words something changes. is that part of the investigation, what was changed? >> it is. it is definitely a lot of interest to me because i heard mccarthy and leaders essentially doing and saying the right thing. calling out the violence. then all of a sudden that tune changed and they were back essentially to falling behind president trump and the big lie and perhap traiting the idea of election fraud and so what we really need in this country is two serious political parties that can debate on the merits of policy and not one party that has complete allegiance to an individual and fails to recognize that they are part of upholding the laws of the country. >> what is the sort of part of the story that may be missing that donald trump jr. fill in? i believe what nbc news is reporting that the committee plans talk to him in coming days. can you confirm that? >> not going to comment on the schedule for upcoming witnesses. but like many others who have interest to the committee he has understanding of the events of that day and as a member of the trump family i think can provide insight as others have testified already. >> some of what we know that -- made public from donald trump jr., text to mark meadows. sent a text we have multiple paths. we control them all. including legal challenges and promoting the alternate slates of electors. also in the riot said he has to condemn this bleep asap. it's gone too far and in the room for the trump side of the pence call. is there discussion of subpoenas for family members or hope they come in as a come pux to get the story down? tell me the thinking and the forks in the road you contemplated for the testimony. it sounds pretty important. >> as i said i won't provide details on the witnesses or negotiations with people may be coming before the committee but for all the reasons you mentioned it is important to hear from him. those in the room who observed one side of this phone call reported to have happened. quite a bit of pressure was applied by the former president for the former vice president as well as all of the other observations of events that day and going back to that text from right after the election, the idea that these plots and schemes and these ideas of false electors thrown around not just on crazy right-wing talk shows but to the highest levels of the white house from the trump family is incredibly disconcerting and shows that there's a plan, a plot. orchestrated leading up to something and then he needs to explain what happened on that day and when he was trying to put out calls to stop the violence. >> no accidental -- >> we need to understand that. >> no accidental text communications about phony electors. it is an out there concept to most people before you engage in a plan to use them. we appreciate that you are as candid as you can be. congresswoman, thank you for spending time with us today. >> thank you. when greene is held accountable for her own words the far right lawmaker denying the support for any insurrection except the problem again is a plot today, a theme it is all on tape. the story next. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. who's on it with jardiance? 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we're on it. we're on it. with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. before i got aura, twenty-four of my online accounts were hacked! he uses the same password for everything. i didn't want to deal with it. but aura digital security just dealt with it. what were we worried about again? shopping on public wifi is sketchy. but with aura digital security, my devices are protected in like 3 minutes. it's time to protect your life online with aura's all-in-one digital security. try for free today at aura.com what was that password anyway? ew. the most powerful witness against marjorie taylor greene's candidacy, the most powerful witness in establishing that she crossed the line in to engagement of insurrection is marjorie taylor greene herself. >> what was a lawyer for the organization that's suing to keep greene off the ballot in a hearing on that topic today claiming the actions related to the insurrection make her ineligible to hold office. she claimed to not recall saying things she said in public until evidence presented otherwise. watch. >> do you think that speaker pelosi a traitor to the country? right? >> you're -- i'm not answering that question. it is speculation. >> you have said that, haven't you, that she is a traitor to the country? >> no. i haven't said that. >> put up plaintiff's exhibit 5. >> hold on, wait. >> never mind. jackie, neal and miles are still here. miles, i want to play some more of what happened in court because this is about what we have been talking about all hour. this is her contradicting the videos that she shot and pushed out from her accounts. watch. >> did you talk to people at the white house about the fact that there were going to be large demonstrations on january 6 in washington? >> i don't remember. >> just finished with the meetings at the white house this afternoon. we had a great planning session for the january 6 objection. >> is it fair to say, representative greene, from election night of 2020 until january 6th, 2021, your personal opinion and your wish was that congress not certify joe biden as the winner of the 2020 election? >> no. that's not accurate. i don't support violence of any kind. >> you can't allow it to just transfer power peacefully like joe biden wants to become the president. >> so we are not lawyers here but we were able to find what she was saying in court today is lies with the evidence disproving most statements as such, as lies. what do you make of the import of this -- it is an important case but she is making a spectacle out of it. >> this is a -- i had to laugh while you played that. this is a bad day in court for anyone, even if she is not disqualified for insurrection. voters should consider she is not fit for office because she can't remember pretty important things. the tapes of greene leaving the white house not only film them and star in them and seen them on tv over and over and over. so you know the denial is stunning and the first clip you played of her not remembering and then remembering when she would be called out on it is look at the constitution. the constitution says a member of congress engaged in rebellion is disqualified from the ballot. i'm not a lawyer here but as the prosecution said in this case greene's own words or used against her told supporters to flood the capitol and urged that the transfer of power not be peaceful and a weird moment in the course of this today where someone claimed executive privilege on behalf of donald trump. i don't know yet if that was actually a lawyer for donald trump but in a moment talking about whether donald trump was attempting to claim marshal law. if that's a lawyer for donald trump that means possibly greene was having conversations with the white house about declaring marshal law so a lot of strange things happeninging here. my fear is this. regardless of how the case turning out it could be misused to continue the trend to see toward violence and intimidation. if she is not disqualified from the ballot the insurrectionists see that as value case. if she is disqualified from the ballot then you will see folks in my circles try to discredit the justice system and worry that raises the temperature and civic tension here in the country. i would add this debate about why and whether donald trump knew that he was fomenting insurrection i think answered years ago. we heard donald trump talk frequently about the insurrection act. he wanted to use it. and i have no doubt that that day he wanted to use it that day to extend the time in office. >> neal, i wonder if you can speak around the legal terms of the greene case turned. neal is muted. can you hear us, neal? >> there we go. there's the law and then there's everything else. on the everything else i think miles is right. this is a national embarrassment of a person. i can't imagine the foreign leaders are watching. foreign adversaries is watching this as a national leader. never seen a more forgotten witness. could barely remember her name. more so than kumar was stoned. the amendment to say that if you are an insurrectionist or notably gave aid and comfort to an insurrectionist then you can't hold office and true for senators, representatives and prts and greene was so afraid of this proceeding she filed a federal case to try to stop it from happening. she rushed into federal court saying the state can't investigate me. a federal judge on monday in a 75-page opinion destroyed that. so that's what led to the proceeding today before the georgia secretary of state and this was by an administrator this, and i don't think anything is more emblematic of our times today than the fact that the georgia secretary of state has become a household name. he just keeps on having cameos in the middle of these big political fights. he's like the stanley of national politics. >> we have to sneak in a quick break. i have a sense, i want to ask you if congresswoman elaine luria made a little bit of news about the evidence in the criminal referral which about seven days ago is debated. seems like that debate has ended. quick break. we'll get right to that. as ended. quick break. we'll get right to that. 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>> yeah, and i do want to just apologize for continuously looking at my phone during this. we are waiting on a court filing from the january 6th committee, so i am constantly refreshing. but that did -- that was a great question, nicole. i was hoping you would ask it because there has been a little bit of a schism and tensions within the committee on whether or not their ultimately going to make a referral. i don't think elaine luria publicly saying where she stands means that that debate has been settled. but it gives you some insight into what side of this and what kind of posture she's taking and she's one of the members who has been very aggressive all along on taking as many actions necessary in order to get the information that the committee needs to do their job. but i still think that there are some people on the committee, lawmakers, investigators, staff, lawyers, who believe that a criminal -- making a criminal referral is one, superfluous or two, sort of distracts from the ultimate objective of what they're doing, which is a much broader objective to really make institutional reforms to laws that safeguard our democracy. and then at the end of the day, congress, it's a purely political act and that congress doesn't even have that power to -- that it would get referred to the doj and they would have to ultimately take that action. that debate still remains under consideration. i think lawmakers are going to continue to hash that out in the weeks ahead, especially as we know we've reported that there is a retreat coming up where the lawmakers are going to immerse themselves in all the depositions, interviews and records they've collected so far and i'm certain this will be a topic of conversation. >> we, too, are watching for news from the committee, but if it pops up, come back to all of your cameras and we'll talk about it. it is an interesting point, jackie, and i have just -- you know, i think that once you've got mccarthy on tape talking about the pence pardon for trump, the debate has been had and you're way past it and you're right, you're sort of in the realm of optics. jackie, neal, and miles, thank you so much for spending the whole hour with us on a friday. it was a treat. thank you, all of you. much more on today's top story, new reporting on how it's all going down on the right. that's next. ng on how it's all going down on the right. at's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. there's no concern about how she voted on impeachment. that decision has been made. i have heard from members concerned about her ability to carry out the job as conference chair, to carry out the message. >> it was a bunch of bologna. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. it was, at the time, a stunning and craven political calculation by house minority leader kevin mccarthy almost a year ago now, last may, to oust congresswoman liz cheney from her post as the third highest-ranking house republican in leadership. a reminder for our fans, despite what you heard, her offense was telling the truth about the 2020 election and voting to hold the ex-president accountable for his attacks on democracy and the violence that ensued on january 6th. in the months that ensued after cheney's vote for trump's impeachment, after the insurrection, mccarthy led the charge to remove her from leadership, to make cheney the pariah in her own party for standing up for the constitution and the rule of law. that move now looks completely different in light of newly released audio from "new york times" reporters alexander burns and jonathan martin, which show in mccarthy's own words that mccarthy saw this exactly the same way liz cheney did, that trump should go. take another listen to the audio we played in the last hour. >> are you hearing that he might resign? is there any reason to think that might happen? >> i've had a few discussions. my gut tells me, no. i'm seriously thinking of having that conversation with him tonight. the only conversation i would have with him is that i think this will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign. i mean, that would be my take, but i don't think he would take it. but i don't know. >> it would be my recommendation that he resign. he, donald trump. those tapes were first aired when my colleague, rachel maddow's program last night. liz cheney denies recording or leaking any recordings from the call so she does not know how "the new york times" reporters had them, have them. there's also this audio, more mccarthy comments from the same call with republican leaders just days after the insurrection, a striking admission from a man who had been one of trump's staunchest defenders for four years. >> i've had it with this guy. what he did is unacceptable. nobody can defend that, and nobody should defend it. >> nobody should defend it. good lord. how quickly the tables turn. in his desperation, in his political calculus to stay alive politically and, i don't know, it sounds like the committee has other questions as well, mccarthy does the opposite of what he articulates on the call. he tells them not to defend trump, and then he does just that, defends trump's actions on the day. he made the pilgrimage down to mar-a-lago a couple weeks after the call took place as a show of his loyalty. couldn't even keep it private. pda, if you will. he did oust cheney from her leadership position for following through on doing what they both seemed to think needed to be done on the call. and mccarthy continues, to this day, to suck up to trump and trump allies in his own caucus. why? all we can figure out is because he values becoming speaker of the house above american democracy, above everything else. so, today, we learned trump isn't even mad at mccarthy. for these comments. is it enough to save him in the eyes of his caucus? earlier, trump lackey and accused sex trafficker matt gaetz came out swinging against the republican leader with this tweet. quote, while i was rallying in wyoming against liz cheney, kevin mccarthy was defending liz cheney among house republicans. while liz cheney was secretly recording kevin mccarthy for the "new york times," gop leader, you should have trusted my instincts, not your own. as we said already, cheney has denied taping or leaking the audio to "the new york times." it's where we start the hour with our most favorite reporters and friends. luke broadwater is here, also joining us, democratic congresswoman madeline dean of pennsylvania. chuck rosenberg is back. luke broadwater, i start with you. this is from two of your colleagues. they sort of put out the ultimate tease in television. there are more tapes. tell me what you know about kevin mccarthy's private comments and their sort of widening gulf between his public posture. >> yeah, i mean, these audio tapes revealed by jonathan martin and alex burns have sent a bombshell through capitol hill today, and certainly on the republican side of the aisle. kevin mccarthy has spent the better part of the day calling people, trying to shore up support. the bigger challenge, as my colleague andy carny wrote, for him, is not that he was caught telling a lie, which everyone clearly saw that he lied. it was that he was caught telling the truth. he told the truth about january 6th, about president trump's responsibility for it and involvement in it, and now he spent the -- he spent the day telling everyone that he quickly called donald trump, that donald trump isn't mad about it, that donald trump's actually feels more powerful because mccarthy capitulated to him, and you're seeing now republican lawmakers go out and defend him both on twitter and on fox news. so, he is -- he realizes this is a dangerous situation for him because he was seen telling the truth about january 6th. now everyone can see that. and so, he's working quickly to try to make sure people know he's still on trump's god side. >> i mean, luke, that's his political fate. what about legal questions? i mean, he talked about a pardon for donald trump. pardons aren't handed out, you know, as party favors. i mean, they kind of were for trump, but they're only handed out -- they have one purpose, to erase criminal records and criminal sentences, sentences that result in criminal convictions. kevin mccarthy thought donald trump was heading down a path for a pardon. what does he do about that? >> yeah. i mean, he said that -- he brings -- if you listen to the tape, he brings it up proactively, that this is probably a question on many people's minds, and so he's not sure whether trump would resign and pence would pardon him, and so he clearly thinks, in that moment, that trump bears legal responsibility for what happened. you know, i don't know what he said to trump on that private call or not, and i don't know where it goes from here. i am not hearing right now from the january 6th committee that they're -- that they are now planning to issue a subpoena for his testimony. as we know, of course, they have sent him a letter and he has refused to meet with them, and of course on the january 6th committee is liz cheney who was on that call, so she knows very well what kevin mccarthy said, and so we haven't heard from them today that they're going to take the next step and issue a subpoena to him. that would be very much out of a congressional norm. that hasn't been done in the past. but of course, it was never done in the past that a mob stormed the capitol either so this could be a time when extraordinary measures are needed. >> congresswoman, so, for me, listening to the tape, i had this few seconds of relief. oh, thank god. everybody saw this the same way. everybody saw the criminality. everyone saw trump's role in inciting it. but then as luke is reporting, as the day went on, that trump is happy. trump is happier today with kevin mccarthy than he was a year ago because he reeled him back in. that the truth doesn't exist for the most powerful republican in the house. he came back from the brink of seeing the truth, and he's now happy to tow the lie. i felt worse than before. tell me your sort of -- first, tell me if you heard the tapes before, and if not, tell me what you thought when you heard them. >> i had not heard the tapes until last night's reporting. and on the one hand, i feel like the final lines in "casablanca." oh my gosh, there's gambling going on. shocking. it's not shocking that mr. mccarthy involved himself in a set of lies, telling the truth in private and telling a lie in public for his own political gain or because of his bizarre fealty to mr. trump. but i think what we're looking at here, nicole, is the aftermath of a narcissist, an extraordinarily compelling, drawing you in narcissist, and look what he has done to these would-be leaders. mr. mccarthy has been caught in a tremendous set of lies. it's not surprising. it is not shocking. it is very, very revealing and i think about my own constituents. they are so tired of this. they care about themselves. they worry about gas prices and their groceries and their child care. but it does matter that we reveal this. it matters that we talk about it because what mr. mccarthy has done, as revealing as it is, his lies, his very words, his statement in advance of the release of the tape, the audiotape, the tape comes out, obviously, he's caught in his own web of lies, what's more revealing is what he failed to do. he was at a precipice, a moment, a chance to lead, and god knows he's been auditioning to lead and to become speaker. and what did he do? he said, maybe i'll call him tonight and ask him to resign. a real leader would have said to his caucus, i will be voting "yes" on this article of impeachment. i encourage you to do the same and would talk to mcconnell and encourage the same and would have called the president and brought others to the table as we saw in the richard nixon resignation. real leaders of that party would have called on him to resign. what's revealed is much more his failed leadership. >> i mean, the nixon parallel is important because these -- we have tapes. it was jim comey who said, lordy, i hope there are tapes. there are tapes. it's all on tape. and i wonder what it says to you that even when -- as luke put it so brilliantly, when caught telling the truth, on tape, they're still safer politically in the cocoon of lies. what does that say to you? >> oh, it's a very disheartening to me. because what i fear is that folks will take a look at this set of behaviors and broad stroke us all. oh, all you politicians are the same. you're in it for yourself. that's what really erodes the faith of the american people. but i do think people have enough sense and savvy to take a look at elected officials and say, who has credibility and who does not. my son, harry, has an expression that i like. he says that people earn credibility in drops and they pour it away in buckets. mr. mccarthy poured away his credibility like many others around the former failed president, in buckets years ago. and has failed to attempt to earn it back by drops. which you can do. you can earn your credibility back. he's utterly failed to do it. >> and in fact, a.b. stoddard, he's taken the other path in not only earning his own credibility back but trying to destroy liz cheney's career. he has backed and for the nearly unprecedented for the republican party apparatus to back challengers to incumbents but that's what kevin mccarthy has directed to be done against liz cheney with whom he sees january 6th exactly the same. when you see liz cheney in committee hearings from today forward, everyone should remember that kevin mccarthy actually sees january 6th exactly the same way she does. he said it. he said it on tape. "the new york times" reporters have those tapes. they have the goods, and there's many more of them to come. there will be lots of tapes, i'm guessing, by the end. kevin mccarthy tells the lies every single solitary day, and the victims aren't just our democracy. it isn't just the sort of republican party. he's out to destroy liz cheney. >> you're right, nicole. when you were going back to the timing of this, it's so interesting because the vote -- the initial vote for liz cheney to retain her position as caucus chair was -- conference chair was on february 1, and she surprised everybody in the secret ballot with an overwhelming vote and survived. and mccarthy tried to have it both ways that day, but the daggers were already out for her, and he had already obviously gone to mar-a-lago after those initial conversations with his colleagues in january, when he told the truth, and he was going to bug liz cheney and he was clearly going to back trump and his vengeance to defeat her. it is not just kevin mccarthy who's backing harriet hagueman in wyoming. it is the entire republican party. the rnc is now a wholly owned subsidiary of donald trump and is doing his bidding and paying his legal defense bills by trying to bolster hagueman in that race. so it's not -- kevin has to walk this line because that's what the entire party is doing. but it's so interesting to hear congresswoman dean talk about mccarthy's position when he had this moment where he could have been a leader and he chose not. he's a follower. he keeps both camps happy at the same time. he's held so many beliefs and everything because he believes in nothing except his path to power. the problem here is that in nine months, it's very likely he will be third in line from the presidency, and i really hope the democrats like congresswoman dean who are likely to be in the minority next year, if the election were held tomorrow, will tell their constituents, who are obviously focused on inflation and crime and other concerns, in their communities, that the people who are going to take power in the government next year are going to try to break it again. because if mccarthy will lie about this, he will lie about anything. and it is true that if they empower trump and allow him to run again, and embrace him as a party, we are not safe in the 2024 election in our current constitutional order. so, it is a very important issue. while voters want to look away, that they really need to hear about. >> congresswoman dean, i've had a lot of conversations with a.b. stoddard, there's not anyone smarter, really, on the -- what has devolved from what was once the other party, other republican party. and i have never heard this urgency in anything she said before. do you agree with the counsel that the midterms and 2024 have to be about more than economic angst, that democrats have this political imperative to broaden the conversation, as a.b. stoddard just said, they've given hands on the lever of our democracy, they will break it. >> a.b., i thank you for saying it so well as you did just now, but you always do. i try to impress upon my constituents, the voters that i have a chance to talk to, the urgency of now, the urgency of truth over lies, the urgency of who will lead. your words were exactly right. mr. mccarthy is a terrible follower. what we needed in the moment of great crisis for this democracy and a president who would inflict a coup on our country, were leaders, and you saw that mr. mccarthy failed miserably. i will take that message. you know the democrats are often demonized for our horrible ability to message, but i will say that people can see with clarity, we're fighting for the people. republicans are lying about what's going on and trying to make you afraid about it and blaming somebody else. so, a.b., continue to counsel us to make sure that we lift up the very best of public servants and my hope is -- i believe we will be in the majority, we will continue to lead. if somehow that is not the case, i think mr. mccarthy will never learn -- will never earn the respect enough of his conference in order to become speaker. that doesn't tell me anything good about who might be next, but mr. mccarthy is so weak. you see it in his daily interaction on the floor. i have experienced myself his extraordinary weakness. as you said, he's trying to please everybody. he's pleasing nobody. he stands for nothing. i don't think he will survive a speakership vote. >> chuck rosenberg, he stood for something very specific on those calls, on the 10th and the 11th, and what he stood for was important enough that congresswoman, i think, jamie herrera butler, introduced it into the impeachment trial and he stood for this very specific and important knowledge of a phone call that trump had while the violence was going on in which trump said to kevin, well, kevin, these people just care more than you do about the fact that the election was stolen from me. we learned from these tapes that whatever kevin mccarthy knew, he knew it was putting donald trump on a path to one resignation, and two, potentially being pardoned by mike pence who could only pardon donald trump if he became the president instead. what kind of investigation would -- or investigator at doj would want to talk to kevin mccarthy about why he said those things on calls with lots and lots of other people? >> yeah, it's a great question, nicole. and it highlights an important distinction between the work of the january 6th committee, and i think they've done a fine job, and what a federal prosecutor and federal agents would have to do if they wanted to bring criminal charges. you know, for the january 6th committee's purposes, the tapes of what mccarthy said may be all they ever get from him and it may be good enough and they may not want to go through the difficulty of subpoenaing him and litigating a subpoena in court. they have lots and lots of witnesses and lots and lots of evidence, and the tapes may suffice. but to your question, for a federal prosecutor, kevin mccarthy is a crucial witness because -- and we've talked about this on your show. all of these crimes require proof of intent, intentionality. what did he actually intend? what did trump say, and what did trump actually intend? did trump intend to disrupt the congressional proceeding? and maybe, perhaps, did mccarthy intend to lie? and so, for a prosecutor, bringing a case in federal criminal court and having to prove it to a unanimous jury by proof beyond a reasonable doubt, mccarthy is absolutely crucial. for the january 6th committee, perhaps not so much. >> chuck, just say a little bit more about, you know, what we know and doj is, by design, opaque. it's steeped in a lot of good traditions. it has a consequence, though, of a lot of exasperation as people feel like trump and his ilk get away with abusing the rule of law. but tell me, all we know is that the investigation to the writers has expanded into an investigation in broad subpoenas of the rally planners. still doesn't feel like something that would pull in kevin mccarthy. where would the investigation have to sprawl to, to have kevin mccarthy's knowledge of trump's criminality so much so that he's talking pardons. he's already there on the pardon conversation. where would an investigation have to expand to for kevin to be of interest to them? >> yeah, well, first of all, nicole, it may never get there. right? i mean, it may just sort of end with the planners and the money that went to the planning and to the rally, and it may never get all the way up the chain. there's also some really interesting questions, i think, about whether or not the department of justice should charge a former president. i'm not just talking about this department of justice and that former president. but whether we want to go down the path, as a nation, of justice departments looking at former presidents. there are some dangers there too as worthy of a larger and more difficult and more nuanced conversation. but if the department of justice wanted to see whether or not it could bring charges against former president trump, for instance, for obstructing a congressional proceeding, then people like kevin mccarthy are crucial, and he ought to be subpoenaed to a federal grand jury and he ought to be compelled to testify and to tell the truth. of course, as we know, he has trouble with that. he's not very good at it. it's a distant cousin to him. so, the worth of mccarthy as a witness remains to be seen. >> an unbelievable state of affairs. luke broadwater, congresswoman dean and a.b. stoddard, thank you so much for spending time with us. chuck sticks around because steve bannon's one-time partner who was in that build the wall fund-raising scheme facing potential prison time while pardoned steve bannon walks free. plus, chilling new accounts of human atrocities in mariupol, ukraine. our good friend, ali velshi is back from his reporting tour de force in the region. and as math textbooks that were apparently so objectionable florida banned them from the classrooms, we got a look inside and we have -- we just have more questions now. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. w. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. ♪ ♪ bonnie boon i'm calling you out. everybody be cool, alright? we've got bonnie right here on a video call. we don't take kindly to video calls. oh, in that case just tap to send a message. we don't take kindly to messages neither. in that case how 'bout a ringcentral phone call. we don't take kindly to no... would you can it eugene! let's just hear her out. ha ha ha, i've been needing a new horse. we've got ourselves a deal. ♪ ♪ ♪ ringcentral ♪ this is not the stallion i was imagining. way day, wayfair's biggest sale of the year is bigger ♪ than ever! ♪ for two days only, april 27th and 28th, get the lowest prices on thousands of items for your home. shop outdoor furniture up to 65% off... rugs up to 80% off... and lighting up to 65% off... plus, get bonus savings with a wayfair credit card and free shipping on everything! shop way day, our biggest sale of the year. happening april 27th and 28th at wayfair.com. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ at xfinity, we live and work in the same neighborhood as you. we're always working to keep you connected to what you love. and now, we're working to bring you the next generation of wifi. it's ultra-fast. faster than a gig. supersonic wifi. only from xfinity. it can power hundreds of devices with three times the bandwidth. so your growing wifi needs will be met. supersonic wifi only from us... xfinity. as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network. with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to $500 a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities.™ steve bannon is back in the news for an alleged grift he, thanks to a pardon, is going to get away with. you may remember in 2020, steve bannon was arrested on a yacht off the coast of connecticut by federal agents for his role in defrauding thousands of trump supporters and donors to the "we build the wall" online campaign. it was, of course, raising money to build a southern border wall because donald trump never really did get anybody else to pay for it. bannon never faced any criminal prosecution from that case because on the eve of trump's departure from office, he pardoned bannon, but bannon wasn't the only person who was accused in the scheme. three others, who were not granted clemency, faced charges yesterday. one of those men, brian, a veteran who lost three limbs serving his country in iraq, pleaded guilty, admitting to taking more than $350,000 in donations for his own personal expenses. chuck is back with us. chuck, other than sort of revealing how gross donald trump's pardons were for people that had committed real crimes for which others are paying hefty prices, what is sort of the -- what is the significance of the other sort of co-defendants, if he hadn't been pardoned, facing these consequences? >> yeah. it's a great question, nicole. so, four people were originally indicted. trump pardoned one of them, steve bannon. that leaves three, if my math is accurate. two of them have pled guilty, and the third one is facing trial. if convicted, and sentenced, they're all looking at three or four or so years in jail. so, i think there are two injustices here. one is that three people are being held accountable for a crime committed by four people. that's injustice number one. and then there's a related injustice. you touched on it. trump pardoned bannon. that is unfair, although within the plenary powers of a president, but it also means, and we talked about this on your show, that perhaps what trump was seeking was bannon's silence. one of the ways in which we get criminals to talk about other criminals is by holding them accountable for their crimes and exposing them to incarceration, so now if bannon doesn't have to worry about that at all, perhaps trump doesn't have to worry about bannon telling a grand jury what bannon knows about trump. so, there are two injustices. i think they're separate, but they're also related. >> but chuck, bannon faces new criminal charges for contempt of congress. and we haven't heard any news that trump pre-pardoned him from future crimes, if that's even a thing. >> yeah, so, there is no such thing as far as i know about pre-pardoning for future crimes. and you're right. trump -- i'm sorry, bannon has been indicted on criminal contempt charges for refusing to comply with a house subpoena related to the january 6th committee's investigation. that said, the guidelines for criminal contempt, the amount of time he might serve in jail, are very, very low, certainly much lower than his three former co-defendants in the "we build the wall" scheme. and second, it there's also still that chance, possibility, i wouldn't call it a probability, that bannon could face other criminal charges, perhaps brought by state officials. remember, trump's pardon wouldn't cover state crimes, related to the "we build the wall" scheme. it's still a crime to steal money or defraud people of money in all 50 states as far as i know. but nevertheless, even if trump ultimately fails in buying bannon's silence, that pardon looked like a crass attempt to, in part, buy bannon's silence. >> just amazing that once you get a pardon, sort of like a criminal's lottery ticket that you go ahead and commit more crimes. it's amazing. chuck rosenberg, thank you for spending time on it with us today. after the break, something i've been looking forward to, my friend and colleague ali velshi is back from his weekslong assignment on the ground in ukraine and in the region. he'll be with us in the studio with his take on today's breaking news and the new atrocities being uncovered and reported on today in mariupol. that's next. reported on today i. th'sat next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ the ihop rewards program is here, and it's delicious. join the international bank of pancakes and start earning pancoins toward free food. only from ihop. what does the future of strength look like? 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(sigh) on tonal. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. -dad, what's with your toenail? -oh, that...? i'm not sure... -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started. i'm greg, i'm 68 years old. i do motivational speaking $0 copay. in addition to the substitute teaching. i honestly feel that that's my calling-- to give back to younger people. i think most adults will start realizing that they don't recall things as quickly as they used to or they don't remember things as vividly as they once did. i've been taking prevagen for about three years now. people say to me periodically, "man, you've got a memory like an elephant." it's really, really helped me tremendously. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. we're doing what we call shaping operations. they're continuing to move in, enabling capabilities that will allow them to conduct larger offensive operations in the donbas. there's a lot of challenges that they have to overcome and this is not a military that's known for being very adaptive. it's not a military that's known for having leaders who are encouraged to take initiative and change the way they're doing things in the moment. so, this is still going to be, we believe, a challenge for them. >> viewers of this program know that john kirby chooses his words carefully and that is a pretty major indication this afternoon that vladimir putin's military ambitions in ukraine could be far more expansive than what some western intelligence services estimated. following that pullback from kyiv. one of russia's senior generals said this today, that not only is the donbas region a focus but so, too, is a huge swath of land across southern ukraine. it's unclear whether this new directive is the official kremlin policy at this point, but following through would mean the creation of a land bridge from russia to crimea that would shut off ukraine to many of its vital ports. that's why mariupol is so essential to putin. it sits right in the heart of that region they're trying to take. today, despite declaring victory there, russian forces are still bombing the heck out of that colossal steel mill where ukrainian fighters and some 1,000 civilians are making their last stand. mariupol's mayor says 20,000 civilians have died in that city so far. there are a number of indications that many of them were buried in mass graves. new satellite imagery allegedly shows one such site just outside the city. that's according to maxar technologies, who captured these photos. it's an apparent mass grave. it's hard to look at, right? anywhere between 3,000 to 9,000 people could be buried here. joining us now, my friend and league, msnbc anchor ali velshi, who recently returned from lviv. i don't want to start by embarrassing you, but i'm going to start by embarrassing you. your reporting was so extraordinary. i say to you in the break, at the beginning, you were at the train station and it was the middle of the night for them, but to see the human beings coming off in this blur and you kind of reporting and trying to help them at the same time was just one of -- was one of the ways that i really was brought into what was happening over there to people, and i just have to thank you for all of your cover, sir. >> thank you for your great coverage and continued attention to it. it was very meaningful to start by reporting on the refugees because i then went further into that story, but when you see them, the first night, they've come out of the country, they've been on the trains or buses, they're cold, they're hungry, most cases they had kids, and in many -- almost all cases, they left somebody behind, a husband, a brother, a parent. there are some people who dropped their kids off in a safe country and then went back because their parents couldn't evacuate. that kind of horror is not something most of us see very often, and it's shattering. >> and you were there and you were an advocate for all of our coverage. we covered every day, and you were obviously there every day, and sometimes jugging other stories you had to cover in the 9:00 hour, but you know, what's tragic is that -- and i don't think that the american people are losing interest. i think they're actually deeply concerned about what's happening, but things are getting worse at this moment that i think we all worry that some of it is too awful. talk about what's happening now. >> yeah, look, we can normalize anything, which worries me. >> we can adapt. >> we can, and at some point, it starts to become background noise but it is that bad and over the course of six weeks there, every time someone told me or reported that something bad had happened, we couldn't always confirm, as you said, you just showed maxar satellite imagery but we're not on the ground there. nobody's on the ground there except the russians and the ukrainians who are fighting, and every time something that the ukrainians said was happening would be confirmed, it was that bad. so, we started with people saying there were 5,000 killed in mariupol. then it became 10,000. now they're saying 20,000. we don't know, but we know lots and lots and lots of people are killed for no other reason than that's who they are. these are civilians. they are not combatants. there are combatants in the steel mill for them. this is the alamo for them. this is remarkable. what is going on here that russians are throwing 20 battalions at the city of mariupol? there are still civilians who have not been able to go out on a daily basis, they're trying to get out of the city. all they're trying to do is get somewhere safer, get to western ukraine or get out of the country or get their kids out and this is what we're watching, and i have to say, it's just hard in 2020 to say that as a world, we don't have a better solution to this. we know we don't have great solutions to people who do things in their own countries to their own people, happens all over the world, but i thought we had better solutions to the idea that countries go into other countries and invade them and that's what the u.n. is there for and we don't. >> you made those points and i was sort of tracking these words because as you said at the time, to call out war crimes, you have to be seeing war crimes. you were seeing them. president zelenskyy saw them. president biden soon after saw them and called it out. you called it a genocide. you'd seen the evidence, you were in the country. president zelenskyy did the same. president biden called it a genocide a few days later. there's now a call from president zelenskyy, and i heard from congressman jim himes yesterday that he and speaker pelosi see russia as a state sponsor of terror. is that what you saw? >> yeah. and you know, the idea that we have difficulty getting over these hurdles about what you call people is -- it sort of doesn't matter when you see what's actually happening on the ground. innocent people are dying. genocide. just my saying it caused such an uproar, but in fact, there are lots of genocides and genocide alerts all over the world. we think this stopped, but it didn't stop. it was the holocaust, it's the balkans, it was rwanda. there are lots of genocides and they're going on to this day. the idea that people are killed on an organized basis by a government because of who they are makes it a genocide. the idea that a state sponsors terrorism against a group of people and encourages others to take up and act in a proxy against them is terrorism. and what it does is it allows us -- it opens us up to greater possibilities in terms of how to sanction them and how to deal with these offenders of international norms. >> one of the sort of surprises in the earliest days was the capabilities of the ukrainian army. >> amazing. >> and the victories seemed to take -- for as correct as they were about russia, they either kept it under wraps or weren't aware that the ukrainians would be capable of defending themselves as skillfully and vigorously as they have. they sank the flagship, which hasn't happened, i don't think, since the '80s. they staved off the attack in kyiv. how do those victories sort of keep this country facing terrorism and genocide going? >> so, when i spoke to people in ukraine about it, they sort of had this resolve that says, we will grieve later, and there will be lots of grieving to do, and there will be lots of rebuilding to do. they're talking about a marshall plan for ukraine once this is all over, so everybody's got the view that this will end, and it will end in a way that causes ukraine to be a strong, independent country. that's what keeps them going. the reality, though, is that our intelligence has shifted, and u.s. intelligence has been pretty good on this right from the beginning, has shifted from this being a short war that would -- russia would achieve its aims into this being a very protracted war. that's advantage russia. a protracted war is advantage, russia. ukraine's got spirit. they've got spunk. they are going in there -- i think they've surprised themselves, and zelenskyy surprised everybody, including a lot of ukrainians, who didn't vote for him and certainly didn't think he was up to a battle with vladimir putin. but the bottom line is, this is all short-term adrenaline energy. russia has the ability to conscript people. it's got the ability to draw on other resources. so i worry that if this is a six-month or a one-year ordeal, that's not advantage, ukraine. but i have to tell you, i've never seen people who are as determined to fight for their country in recent years as i have seen them. you do see this around the world, but it's remarkable to see it. >> and i want to -- we just need to sneak in a break but i do want to ask you about the bond that zelenskyy has forged not just with his supporters but with some of his detractors which was in place, even up until when the invasion started. >> that's right. >> can you stick around? 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[ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley. we're back with ali velshi at the table. some guests have talked about this, that president zelenskyy -- and it's impossible to know how a leader will lead their country through heinous tragedies and valiant battlefield victories, but brutal fighting until a leader has to lead their country through those things, but zelenskyy's bond with the country, you were there as it was being formed. tell me about that. >> it was -- they were going through the same experience the rest of the world was with zelenskyy. they didn't really know who he was. he wasn't taken seriously in all quarters, and even for people who voted for him or who didn't, they thought he might be interesting. he wasn't corrupt, and corruption was a serious issue in ukraine. but they didn't really necessarily think he was up to it. and they definitely didn't think he was up to a battle with vladimir putin. he has surprised a lot of people, including his detractors, and people don't lie about it in ukraine. i ran into a lot of people whoks, i didn't vote for him, but boy, does he impress me. he's got people lined up in many cases to put their lives on the line for their country. he's created a national pride that obviously people had, but he has articulated it to the world. he is the face of ukraine, a country that most americans would have had difficulty finding on a map. he is definitely turning out to be a remarkably interesting and nuanced and textured character, more than people expected him to be. >> and when he gives these speeches, i mean, the speech to congress, you were over there, but i mean, it was unbelievable. and the video they presented. what is the reaction inside ukraine when he gives these sort of rousing calls for more weapons and more assistance? >> what's interesting is when we talk almost every night to members of parliament in ukraine, they're not a monolith. they're not from one party. in many cases, the faces with whom our viewers are most familiar are opposition leaders or opposition people. they have all dropped all of that for now, and when i push people on it, they say, we'll get back to that later. we will go back to being a country that has opposition parties and doesn't like zelenskyy, but for now, the messaging is incredibly consistent. zelenskyy says it, and everybody in the country agrees with it, largely because he is pushing -- he has been pushing and pushing and pushing for weeks, right, asking for more than what anybody has been willing to give, and yet every time he asks, something happens. you know? another brick gets taken out. so, he's succeeding. he's passionate. he has some ability to deal with international leaders who have been at it for many, many years who are not him. even the tension when i was over there between hungary and ukraine, they're not friends, and they're not friends anymore either, because there's been a new election in hungary and viktor orban has once again won. even how he deals with that, he says the ukrainian people are our friends, the ukrainians are our supporters. the belarusians, they consider sort of their brothers in arms. they know they have a government supporting russia. so he's a great communicator and it translates in ukrainian and russian, which he speaks, and even in english. >> yeah. was there -- i mean, i watched all of your coverage, and we've covered it every day on this show and we get a chance to interview ukrainians, and there's some of it that's unbearable to think of, you know, igor comes on the show a lot and talks about his young girls and they send videos to us, going to the bomb shelter. it's -- it crushes me. what stories or what people did you meet that were just -- that changed you? that moved you? >> you know, it moved me in the way that when i moved me in the way that when i cover disasters, i see somebody coming back to their house before they do. i'm often there before they are because the media comes in and they start moving little pieces of garbage and try to find something. >> a photo album. >> i was thinking in that moment about the triumph of the human spirit, and that's what i saw every single day in eastern europe and in ukraine. when people got off those trains, they knew we were getting off in warsaw or budapest or a border town that was not their country. they knew they had their kids in hand and their family back home, and yet everybody i talked to expressed some hope, some confidence, some thanks that people were paying attention to them and helping them, and some confidence that they will overcome. and i didn't see that falter anywhere there is immense sadness. there's immense grief. you remember that image of richard engel with that elderly woman who was just crying. she was beside herself and she sort of just gave him a hug. that's hard for the brain to process. but as collectively the ukrainians are feeling very strong and very motivated right now. the reality is, they're getting -- things the russians are doing in ukraine are unfathomable. >> but we have to fathom them. >> we have to fathom. >> we're so lucky to have you over there and have you back here. i'm glad you're back. >> thank you. you invited me here while i was there. >> it's not fair to do it on live tv. what do you think? what do you say? nah. thank you so much. thank you so much. to be continued. let's keep having these conversations. you'll be back at 9:00 and you have congressman jamie raskin, and that's only the other huge, huge, huge story. >> in some ways we're all fighting for democracy all over the world. >> and it is amazing. he's got that awareness. he's spoken about it at some of these hearings that they're fighting. we're fighting too. richard engel is going to shine a bright light on everything we're talking about, the spirit and resilience even through all their sadness of the ukrainian people. watch "on assignment with richard engel: ukraine freedom or death" quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. entresto is the number one heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists and has helped over one million people. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. ♪ we could walk forever ♪ ( ♪♪ ) ♪ walking on ♪ ♪ walking on the moon ♪ ♪ some ♪ ♪ may say ♪ ♪ i'm wishing my days away ♪ ♪ no way ♪ ♪ walking on the moon ♪ the lows of bipolar depression can leave you down and in the dark. but what if you could begin to see the signs of hope all around you? 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"the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. happy friday. >> happy friday, nicole. i hope you have a great weekend. welcome to "the beat" everyone. i'm ari melber. house republican leader kevin mccarthy is a liar. he is lying about his dealings with the white house regarding the insurrection, the greatest attack on the capitol and u.s. democracy in over a century. he is lying about what his own shifting positions are for what to do about it with the power he has as a leader on this important matter. now, that's the top story based on the explo

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