figure volunteers for a committee interview. plus, senator chris murphy on where america stands as a russian threat to ukraine continues and how donald trump's chosen governor virginia is already doing his best to make his boss proud. >> glenn gets in there, virginia to lower taxes to all the things that we want a governor to do. >> all in starts right now. good evening from new york i'm chris hayes the anti-vaccine movement has been coming out in washington, d.c., this weekend as almost 2000 americans are still dying every single day from covid. and all data we have access to says the vast overwhelming of geordie of them are unvaccinated several. thousand people showed up to the march from the washington monument, the lincoln memorial, with a call to defeat the mandates and america homecoming. the parallel conspiracy theory that crosses ideological lines with both the right and the last. speakers of the rallies range from -- two of course members of america's most famous democratic family anti-vaccine advocate robert f. kennedy junior. some of that was promoted by some of the most powerful voices in anti vax messaging in this country. fox news, primetime hosts particular lee tucker carlson. >> there's a massive march this weekend on sunday in washington, d.c., against vaccine mandates. probably a lot of vaccinated people -- the point is they cannot force you to get a medical procedure you don't want because they do not own your body. if you let them you're gonna regret it. >> this is very funny because they like doing this this distinction it's not out the vaccines about the vaccine mandate, a finding chain. but if you spend 60 seconds around the crowd -- we saw in the crowd a lot of that goes that tucker carlson. the pros sentiment like this guy in this america first ad smoking a cigar a lot of anti biden imagery, the biggest bogeyman was doctor fauci with people calling for him to be fired or arrested. the crowd did seem to find doctors they like, who touted disproving claims about covid treatments, vaccines, and doctor robert alone has become -- joe rogan's podcast and tucker carlson show began's speech of misinformation by evoking martin luther king day union. >> in march, of 1963 and that rate man came to washington and stood on the steps of the lincoln memorial right there. and change the world. by speaking from his heart about his dream. simple words that continue to resonate throughout time. we all stand on the shoulders of giants and the simple truth are what matters most. these are my truths. and i believe there is self evident. regarding the genetic covid vaccine this sciences settled. there are not working. they are not completely safe. >> i should note, part of that is true that the science is pretty settled it's been incredible. -- those settled to the extent that science is settled in the opposite direction from what he saying. the vaccine is incredibly effective at preventing death, serious illness. we've seen in country after country more than that they're safer than say many comment over the counter medications. now throughout the crowd, the speech there's a lot of comparisons to the vaccine mandates to various forms of authoritarian tyranny. in several cases they acquitted mandates to the actual holocaust. this is a common trope. we've seen it pop up over and over. again with swastikas made out of syringes, to this yellow star of david which is a very popular mean. in his speech in the gathered crowd, robert f. kennedy junior, made his comparison explicit. >> it's been the ambition of every totalitarian state from the beginning of mankind to control every aspect of behavior of conduct and to obliterate -- none of them have been able to do it. they didn't have the technological pomposity. even in hitler germany you could cross the alps into switzerland, you can hide an addict like and frank did, i visited in 1962 -- and met people who climbed the wall and escaped, so it was possible. many pai died doing it, but it was possible. the mechanisms are being put in place that will make it so none of us can run and none of us can hide. >> so clearly the folks -- i would humbly submit wildly wrong in the conception of history and what's happening right now. and the situation as it stands. but it's important to note here, this is a group of several thousand people in a country of two a 330 million. it's a big country. there's all kinds of people there's all kinds of news and they get together for protests. this is their first protest, god bless them. over 80% of the population in this country has received at least one dose. people are voting with their arms so to speak. the vast majority of americans are vaccinated and thank them for that. but here's the thing the scope and the intensity of the american anti-vaccination movement are on display in washington is a genuine outlier among the country. it's important to understand. that's because this data from morning council, which is useful way of looking at it these. numbers look a little bit different than other numbers because rather than using the official vaccination data which has some real comparison issues across different countries, morning council, is serving people if they got the vaccine or if they plan to either unwilling. and you can see all this tax, that right. the vast majority of people have gotten the vaccine except for russia those dark green represent those that are vaccinated the. light green are those that are planning on getting vaccinated. those are people that not opposed to it they haven't gotten around to it. the yellowish color of those are learn certain and the red is the most important number here i think. the red are the on hard-core anti-vaxxers, the unwilling. i will not get vaccinated. when you see in this chart is that the wealthy from spain, to australia, to canada, japan. different parts of the world, different parts of the languages, they all are in the same range of 80 to 90% vaccinated with a very small people saying the and vaccinated. and then there's two outliers at the top. the u.s. and russia the top 20% one out of five people unwilling to get vaccinated dead set against. and this big group of vaccine resistant which is a total outlier, it's having a profound intangible effect. now let me be clear, as we said on the show before, the biden administration is falling short in dealing with the virus in testing capacities, to confusion around quarantine guidelines, but it really stands out in terms of this country's battle against covid especially deal with this omicron wave. which has washed over places that such as varied as south africa, denmark, uk. the pandemic we have right now, and that other countries are having is proving to be much less deadly and other countries where they more vaccine and more boosted than us. that's the plain brutal truth. you can see it plainly on this graph. showing per debts for millions of people. just in december when omicron was beginning to ramp. up were an outlier. another thing weren't outlier. -- france, the uk, it's even worse here than south africa with a lower vaccination rate. the -- piers they may have had way more immunity from previous waves. our country is an outlier. and it's an outlier in this fundamental inescapable way. in terms of the virulence and the wrath of anti-vaccine sentiment and the number of people resisting vaccination. and the human toll of that, of this pandemic thousands, and thousands of death rolling on day after day after day. and people gathering to say that it's nonsense, that it's not actually killing them, that the vaccine is causing it. we are on an island here. i really think it's important for everyone to understand the american -- at this moment. a huge part of it a huge part of it may be the biggest central factor is that powerful people with platforms, like tucker carlson, and the organizers for the mandate marcher powering and cultivating this for attention and for profit. they are extending the reach of vaccine misinformation to all corners of our country and society. and it is everywhere, everywhere you look, and be a hall of famer john stockton just said in an interview for the spokesman review, i think it's highly recorded now, there's 150 i believe now, it's over 100 professional athletes dead. professional athletes the prime of their life, dropping dead that are vaccinated, right on the pitch, right on the field, right on the court. this is an example of a little rule of thumb that we have here in the all-in program which the numbers down stupid to be true a too crazy to be true than it probably is. that one falls into that category that is utter nonsense. but of course it gets blasted to the whole world. and it spreads all over the place of regular folks on social media, neighbors, family and result in this kind of stuff that we heard in the march yesterday. >> you're comparing this is slavery, why is that? >> the reason why this is compared to slavery with these particular -- which they don't protect you you have to continuously subscribe to their drugs in order to be able to participate in society which is a form of slavery. >> i've never been forced to take anything for myself for any kind of medical reason or anything. and i feel for someone to make that decision is very unjust. it's sad. >> i mean, look, there is something profoundly worrying about wet this pretends for the rest of the endemic. it's happening now, day after day. not just this pandemic so many other challenges we face in the fewer this is how a portion of americans -- i don't want to vilify them these people may be perfectly wonderful, decent people, caring for their neighbor's maybe they have politics and other pieces i agree with. but this is where we add, a huge chunk of americans respond to the deadliest pandemic in 100 years like this. our next guest for both at the rally this weekend britain easter drowsy -- who's been with covering the online anti vax movement. and carol -- for rolling stone magazine she wrote about this weekends -- i'm a full anti-vaxxer now, how the conspiracist are winning over fresh converts. let me start with you a little what you saw here what you heard from folks at this rally? >> so i heard a lot of people that were part of the anti vax movement for a long time. what surprised me the nose for the amount of people that i met that are brand-new to it. people who over the course of the pandemic had become more radicalized. who talked to interest in neighboring one place, robert f. kennedy's book a dry, people who through the mandate that spoke with a nurse who told that she was told to get a vaccine she became very fearful. wrister job. she didn't know exactly what it meant for her to get a vaccine. i think one thing that was very clear to me in conversations i had with people was that there's different ways into the anti vax movement. it could be fear, it could be a feeling of injustice, frustration with the ongoing pandemic, but the anti vax moon has found a way through the rallies like we saw yesterday by calling it an anti mandate rally. by getting people to get into their movement in very much so the speakers we heard or much more radical than the people that were there. and over the course of a day i heard a lot of rhetoric, i've been on to question how safe and effective vaccines are. >> yes, it's important a, to know the sort of fine line which isn't actually there in practice. against the mandates against the vaccinations. you go to that rally you're getting it -- it's gonna be dangerous it's this narrow principle of mandates. but the general gus dulled of the rhetoric as i watch this and read reports, brandi, it's really hyperbolic stuff about essentially nazism the, second coming of the holocaust, the second coming of the third right. here is dell big tree calling for nuremburg trials of fauci in the press, take a listen. >> mark my words we will haul tony fauci accountable we, will hold -- joe biden accountable, but unlike the nuremburg trials that only tried those doctors that destroyed the lives of human beings were gonna come after the press. >> how common is this kind of language and rhetoric in this movement and it's been reporting on for a while? >> yeah, dull big tree as a show that comes on on thursday online and he said millions of people watch it is just that over and over every single week. and it's on facebook at its on instagram and this is just the internet come to. life and it really was. you had the weirdest bunch of people all sort of slammed together. it was really a conspiracy fest yesterday. and i think it's really important to talk about how extreme how extreme these folks are how'd it were there any extremist. there they were everywhere you. can frame it as i just gotta -- and feel right to me when you sherisse gauge that says that vaccines are gonna kill your kids and proof of vaccine is in elaborate plan to enslave you and track you with bill gates satellites. which is our of kennedy said yesterday when he said that being vaccinate is worse then holocaust victims. when you share a stage with those people or if you're in a rally i'm just against mandates but when you listen to this and clap and say, jail all of the reporters that is a really clique march to extremism. >> yeah, and i think the tell petri is such a big sample. the group that he runs is called the informed consent action arc, which is kind of a microcosm of the bait and switch here, which is who's against informed consent. you want informed consent, what do you gotta put my body, to like the nuremburg trials two point oh and you are gonna be up there facing the gallows. reporters and doctor anthony fauci. and that kind of kara, engine radicalization. i saw some of your reporting, and brandi's, i know people who say this kind of stuff. i don't want this to be seen like there are some awful alien group of people that have these questions or concerns or skepticism's, their friends, loved ones. it might be people you dated, or people you've christmas you went to. but like, the slide from that to wet nuremburg trials is what's so in irving. then >> yeah, and it's all -- i mean this is all a grift, this is all a grip. these new doctors organizations that came up and i want to show you ivermectin or hydrochloric, or people that white -- that's what they were talking. the rfk talking a book. his group brought in six point $8 million in 2020, it doubled during the pandemic, they double the money that they brought in. i can, that's -- it is every year it doubles as profit. and every year he gets paid more. i mean, it's just so obvious that this is a show, right? dell gets up there and he had to get up there before he take at the end of the program of. and just yell, and yelled about freedom and jailing everybody. and it's he walked out, it was just such a moment. because he was walked out by's all of his security guards. and just like feeling good and, people were treating him like a rock star. and unfortunately, he does not care a whit about the real harm that comes from vaccine hesitancy. >> kara, what was your take away from this rally in terms of where you think this goes or the trajectory of this? >> from what i saw yesterday, and as you talk to the top chris, and as brandi said, there's a lot of people who are part of this. i saw a lot of people who said brow democrats against medical mandates, that was one side of f of i heard if i heard correctly. and people who have just found their way -- this any particular way. which means, there's a powerful coalition coming together right now. people who otherwise don't have anything to do with each other are banding together on the single issue, and it's republicans's side to really plug into this, we could have a lot of comes a success in the coming elections. and who knows -- that seems like a really important thing to keep an eye on here, is specially that we're heading into the midterms. >> all right, brandy brandi zadrozny and cara kara voght, thank you both. coming up, the investigation -- to overturn the georgia election gets the greenlight for a grand jury. plus, what we know about the january six committee's conversations with former attorney general bill barr. and, brand new reporting on who is behind the scheme to seize voting machines. all that after this break. season long.l that after this. -capsule! -capsule! -capsule! capsule saves me money on prescriptions. capsule took care of my insurance. capsule delivered my meds to my doorstep. capsule is super safe and secure. get your prescriptions hand delivered for free at capsule.com (naj) at fisher investments, our clients know we have their backs. get your prescriptions hand delivered for free (other money manager) how do your clients know that? 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election. last week we learned the full district attorney was asking for a special grand jury to investigate trump's actions when he asked the secretary of state to manufacture 11,000 votes. well tonight, we know the special grand jury will go forward, that's because the judge is on fulton county supporter superior court branch reprove that request. and the special ground jury will be in panel and it can continue for a period not to exceed 12 months. meanwhile, the january 6th elect committee is apparently already had a prolific conversations, lining up the information they want, they are still in the process of putting it all together. last week on this show, congressman adam schiff, to of course is a member of the committee, has estimated over 400 witnesses have cooperated just so far. as we learned last week, one of the people they would like to speak with is the presidents senior advisor, ivanka trump, who the committee claims witnessed a conversation between trump and mike pence on the morning of january six among other things. the former president was apparently displeased about the inquiry and lashed out at the committee for not respecting the hire law of nepotism. it's a disgrace what's going on, and they're using these things to try and get people's minds off all incompetently our country is being run, and they don't care. they'll go after children. we would we little babies. to be clear, ivanka trump is a 40 years old and served as former senior adviser in the white house during her father's presidency. meanwhile, yesterday, congressman benny thompson, the man who helped donald trump wriggle out of the motor investigation, former attorney general -- has already spoken to the committee. you may remember, barr left the trump administration very abruptly, just weeks before january six. but he was still running the department when he drafted executive order that was created that would've direct did -- to seize mode-ing voting machines and basically announce a full fledged coup in the united states of america. now, just this evening, political reports that former new york city police commissioner, bernie kerik, who worked with rudy giuliani to help undermine joe biden's win and who trump to pardon for crimes including tax fraud back in 2020, told the january six committee the person responsible for coming up with a plan to seize the voting machines. betsy woodruff swan, political -- wrote that story about bernie kerik's -- as well as the original story, sees the voting machines. and she joins me now. here the perfect person to have, betsy, what do we know about this executive order. and what kerik told the committee about its origins. >> kerik testify to the committee earlier this month that phil waldron was the person, to kerik's knowledge, first came up with the idea of presenting an executive order to trump encouraging the president to direct the secretary of defense to seize these voting machines. now, to be clear, this is testimony that kerik has given to the january 6th elect committee as part of an interview. we have wechat out to roger and and have not heard back. and remember, the folks who talk to the january 6th select committee are not necessarily reliable narrators, but kerik is a really important witness for them because he was actually part of trump's outside legal team that worked on all these lawsuits, trying to challenge the election results. it actually pretty unusual and a very big deal that somebody who was on that legal team is playing ball with the committee and cooperating with them, at least in as extensive as away as kerik has engaged. now, phil waldron might not be a household name, he's not even a household name necessarily in my household. waldron is really interesting though because he's most associated with, i think a 38-page powerpoint plan that circulated on capitol hill that found its way to mark meadows inbox, when he was white house chief of staff. and that laid out a very expensive plan for trying to overturn the election results. additionally, waldron has told reporters that when he was in the defense intelligence agency that he worked with michael flynn when michael flynn was there as well. and so waldron claims to have that connection. the u.s. defense department hasn't commented on the nature of waldron's military service, but he says he has got relationship with -- and there is extensive reporting that flynn also was pushing in the final weeks of trump's presidency for these extreme measures, for trump to take these extreme measures to try to overturn the results of the election. >> waldron we should just, know he's -- which is the sort of big intelligence within the actual panic on, are one of several. and that sort of explains a bit of reporting you had earlier when the memo came out, which is in the first sentences of the memo the references classified presidential memorandum, which would require for them to be reference, the person conceiving or drafting this order to have some classified axis, him or herself. >> yeah, that's right. and we don't know that waldron is the author of the memo. we don't know that he's the only person who is advocating for this case. it's a story that we're still working on. but yes, that first paragraph is so interesting, because it refers to a classified document that trump signed off on during his presidency, that nobody -- no public civilian, non government officials, new existed. it certainly wasn't publicly reported anywhere anthill i obtain this copy of the executive order. i have not been told by any of the sources i've spoken with, that is tentative anything scarier nefarious, my understanding is that it is an adjustment to a prior executive order that had been -- the had a lot more visibility to the public. but the fact that the author of this draft executive order knew about this secret document is really jaw-dropping. and frankly, in my view, one of the most interesting things about the document. >> final question for you as well, barr who we also have learned is cooperating, now far we have to say, barr's during this time all in all reporting indicates that he was rebuffing efforts to essentially enlisted department of justice in this pursuit too put out official investigations of voter fraud. he actually came before the cameras and knock that down. but then he just like up in quits. releases a statement talking about how incredible donald trump's, and basically left the committee -- he's now apparently talking to the committee, what do we know about those conversations? >> i think the washington post has the most detailed reporting on it. and what they reported is that barr was in communication with the select committee last year. so, before the select committee got a text of these erekat of order the political published. and additionally, the post reported that the select committee maybe investigators have not asked barr about this draft, executive order. one of the biggest questions for barr and anyone a doj would be, did anyone at the justice department know about this proposed plan to use the military to seize voting machines. of course, one thing that we're confident the select committee has asked barr about is all the wackiness that was going on between the white house and the justice department in trump's final weeks. that's a very big topic. they would have a lot to talk about. based on what's out there and what we know, my expectation is that the select committee is going to have many more questions for barr. and the question it is how wholesome and thorough is his kimbrough ration. does he continue to be someone who is viewed as a good actor? or do they get to the point where they have to think about using more hardball tactic to get cooperation from him? thus far, it's been only positive signals from the select committee. where involving bill barr, and that in of itself is a big deal. >> all right besser with just ron, thank you very much. next up, republican governor glenn youngkin's been in droves for ten days. he's already being sued. plus, the suspicious firing of a virginia lawyer working with the january six committee, after this. virginia lawyer working with virginia lawyer working with the of magic in all that chao. ♪ so different and so new ♪ ♪ was like any other... ♪ after this after this sore throat pain? ♪honey lemon♪ try vicks vapocool drops in honey lemon chill for fast acting sore throat relief ♪ahhh!♪ wooo! vaporize sore throat pain with remember last november when the entire country was just one first some divine lesson from the victory of a moderate candidate in virginia's governor terrell race. youngkin who ran mitt romney to employ no campaign. youngkin had a delicate tightrope to rob just in a year after a coup. because even in a state how joe biden won by ten points nowhere in public and get elected without the support of donald trump's base. but he also couldn't tack to hard to the right or else he would use ground with the moderate suburbanites away from biden. so youngkin found him in -- not talking very much about the president trying to have it both ways he skipped both virtual rallies the trump and his allies held in his behalf including this downright bizarre and steve bannon event where attendees pledged allegiance to a flag in d.c. during their insurrection. after that happened youngkin called that display weird and wrong. which accurate but at the same time he found a way to pay very distinct cola lip service to trump's big lie about a stolen election. >> i think we need to the people trust these voting machines, i grew up in a world where you had an audit every year. you add an audit for businesses, you publish it so everyone can see it. now youngkin did say that he was for a fair and free election. one of trump's former terrorist advisers sebastian gorka and make nice. >> what can you do to reassure trump supporters that that is not who you are. >> well, the president knows i am a virginia first governor candidate. on the stand up for virginia. >> you're listening to glenn youngkin, we had issues getting him on the show we are where he was surrounded by took the decision he came on the show give him credit for that. >> you see what he did there, pretty death, on sebastian's gorka -- which is utterly meaningless. so after all that in november, since then it's how will youngkin actually govern. will he be a moderate boasting -- or really be a hard right like ron desantis are south dakotas kristi noem. we got our first set of answers. he's being sworn in on january 13th banning critical race theory which was already not tart in virginia public schools. he did kind of campaign on. that he sign another go order lifting mask orders in schools although it's subject to a legal challenge. youngkin a number of bills that make it more difficult to raise property taxes. and he announced this is my favorite, reveal, he would in -- and drill real or to be a secretary of natural resources. he was one of the many swamp features to inhabit donald trump's -- a former coal lobbyist who ran the epa under trump after trump's first epa administrator straw pruitt resigned admits the number of corruption scans. the most i racing decision is a unified or public governor state was the new republican attorney general born in that same state in race, firing dozen of staffers including a lawyer for the university of georgia virginia who is currently on leave assisting the bipartisan january six insurrection. the a.g.'s office says that decision was not politically motivated. but would appear the not everyone agrees. congresswoman elaine laureate represents virginia told the washington post quote, i am concerned about this i'm concerned that someone in my position like this, a person who shortly beers is donald trump. who's relished every opportunity to undermine the committee investigating the insurrection that he incited. tom perry a former -- u.s. programs at the open society foundation he joins me now. >> tom, what do you think about the first ten days of republican governance youngkin and the attorney general as well. the individual had issues with a general countered for uva he was on leave, it just seems there is no plausible theory for the firing other than what it looks like. >> i mean he's an incredibly respected lawyer, former prosecutor, someone who has allies on all sides of the aisle's. who helped investigate the horrible events, he's the general counsel for the university of virginia, the crown jewel of our public university here into virginia. something beloved by people again across the political aisle. this is a disastrous decision not only in political vengeance but also what it may mean for be able to -- at uva and as you said the question was who was he baiting and who was the switching. but he was going to bait and switch the trump base and govern as a moderate. and unfortunately, he was doing a bait and switch on moderate voters and has decided to be a radical republican. >> yeah, it's gonna be very interesting to see in this regard. you've got three people phil scott, ball baker, and all republican governors and heavily democratic states. more democratic than. virginia have also been in positions because of all three cases govern -- the legislature they're acting more as the brakes than the engine of the car. they'll veto stuff, they'll say were not doing stuff, that's not the case in virginia were youngkin is getting some leeway in his agenda. >> he has some room, he certainly has democrats ready to work with him on bipartisan common sense solution. but talk about mistreating your mandate. parents were clearly stating in this election but they want the schools open, they want to be listened to. but instead governor youngkin has made moves that will probably significantly increase the chance -- he's probably overruling local school officials he's already upset not only parents who are suing them, but the american academy of pediatrics virginia chapter. this is not what people are looking for which is pragmatic problem solving. and instead a culture war agenda here that virginians didn't vote for. >> we should say there's also gonna be a lot of push among republicans in the state legislator for a whole variety of election insurrection related causes. senator amanda chase called herself trump in heels, has several bills and crawling with -- other republican proposals would eliminate several facets of broader voting policies -- including permanent absentee voter roll, no excuse mail-in votes and drop off boxes for absentee voting. in a situation where democrats expanded -- that republicans did well. and thereby showing that they are capable of competing and high turnout elections and already contemplating ways of cutting off access to the ballot box. >> well first of all it shows democracy or from should be a bipartisan issue. it used to be a bipartisan issue but it's really just disappointing to see senators like murkowski, collins, and snow, and romney not stepping up on the voting rights act at the federal level. it shouldn't be something that at least moderate republicans fear as we saw in virginia. but also as we do often have to see in the united states is black women coming to the rescue. senators like louise lucas, jen mclelland, along with those as scott surrounding or holding the line there in the senate. these reforms are widely popular among virginians. we glenn youngkin tried to make crime an issue, that went nowhere for him. still bipartisan provided for common sense criminal justice reform as well as voting reform issues. so at some point governor youngkin will have to make a choice on whether he's actually listening to virginians furs. or whether he's putting the focus of the world, the trumps of the world in charge. we know it virginians wand and sadly that's not what we see so far in these first ten days. >> all right tom -- thank you very much. >> thank you chris. >> senator chris murphy's here to discuss a russian invasion thousands americans troops are prepared for the possibility of deployment, after this. deployment, after ♪ ♪ manhood looks different from guy to guy. but when yours bends in a different direction, you might feel bothered by it. so talk to a urologist. because a bend in your erection might be peyronie's disease or pd. it's a condition that involves a buildup of scar tissue. but, it's treatable. xiaflex is the only fda- approved nonsurgical treatment for appropriate adult men with peyronie's disease. along with daily penile stretching and straightening exercises, xiaflex has been proven to help gradually reduce the bend. don't receive if the treatment area involves your urethra, or if you're allergic to any collagenase or any of the ingredients. may cause serious side effects, including: penile fracture or other serious injury during an erection, and severe allergic reactions, including 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if that if he does that, what happens after that? today, the biden administration sought to show a unified -- against vladimir putin. the white house panic on state department held briefings as addressing the escalating situation ukraine. presidential biden held an 80 minute video call with allies this afternoon, briefly telling reporters a torrent time ago, there was unanimity on the call but not getting into details. there were over the weekend, there were weekends -- biden's considering sending troops to eastern your. those reports were confirmed today. the picketing pentagon announced as many -- are now on the high alert and ready to deploy within days. yesterday, the state department ordered family members of u.s. embassy personnel in your crib's capital of kyiv to evacuate the country, and authorize -- who to leave as well. blaring a do not travel alert is now on the state department website, warning americans russian -- would severely impact u.s. embassies ability to provide consular services, including u.s. assistance to u.s. citizens in departing ukraine. senators -- who serves on the former relations committee recently went on a bipartisan trip to ukraine to assess the situation with u.s. embassy staff and ukrainian government officials. -- they brief the president when they arrived home, and he joins me now. senator, what were your impressions from the trip just a few days or we can go? >> well, my impressions were that vladimir putin's likely getting really horrible advice. reporting suggest some are telling the russian president he's going to be created as a liberator if he enters ukraine, at least if he moves for than a already is in your eastern york rain. would i sign kyiv when we were there for 24 hours, is a country that is ready to defend itself. a country whose military is stronger than russia thinks it is. a country that has new levels of assistance from nato in the united states arriving on a daily basis. and a country that is likely prepared to mount a long term counter insurgency, that is going to rival russia's invasion of afghanistan in 1980. so i think this is going to be bloody, i think it's going to come with a huge caused, both in terms of lives to the russian army but also in rules and dollars to the russian economy. i don't think we know what his choice is going to be, but we obviously are taking steps right now to prepare for the worst. >> so there's something interesting i noticed in the last day, is that the messaging from ukrainian officials is a little different than what we've heard in americans so far, as far as president zelensky saying they might incur further but they've been in the donbass for years. and you've got the head of the national security council on ukraine saying this is nothing new. i mean, attempting to sort of tamp down panic even after president zelensky saying don't make a run on the banks. you've got the ukrainians reacting with some anger today about the evacuation of embassy personnel, that this is unfairly inducing panic. what do you make of that? >> well, so let's reverse about a year. so putin, in the wake of the euro, might -- to align itself with europe in the west. russia decides to undergo a pretty rigorous attempt to undermine the legitimate democratic government of ukraine, and now lying towards europe. and to try to crater it to try to destroy it so that its place a government will be stood up will once again live under the thumb of putin. for the last day, years putin has been trying, unsuccessfully, yes he's move troops to the eastern crane, he's taken crimea, but he's basically try to use subterfuge to try to get the ukrainian government to reorient itself towards moscow. he doesn't want to have to invade if he doesn't have to. so, his first play here is to put all these troops on the border, create enough panic inside kyiv, so that the government falls apart and ukrainians decide to rush in a government that will make a deal with a crime. i don't think that's gonna happen. but that's why you see this effort in kyiv, understandably by the ukrainian government, to try to keep everyone as calm as possible while they ready right there nation for war. because they know russia would rather take the country by default. >> so, i think that you and all right thinking people would agree that the u.s. is not gonna send ground forces into ukraine. we are not going to get into a shooting war with nuclear power russia. that that's not on the table and should not be on the table. the question is, what is the diplomatic off ramp here? and how that can be achieved in a way that secures the sovereignty of the ukrainian people and their right to self determination. but produces some outcome in which, i don't know what it would mean for putin to not feel so freaked out by this country on his doorstep. >> yeah, i'm skeptical that there is a true traditional diplomatic off ramp. in part, because these claims that putin makes our imaginary. and he likely knows that they are imaginary. i mean, he thinks that nato provides presents a territorial threat to russia. it does not. he knows that we have no designs to invade russia. he's making these claims of i think as a way to try to raise the stakes, such that he is allowed to say the diplomacy fell apart, and he was left with nothing other than invasion. he essentially is asking us to give russia a veto power over who enters nato, and that is quite frankly contrary to the essence of democracy, that we would take away from a temper credit country, ukraine, to do the ability to decide for itself who adjoins. i think the only way he doesn't do this, is because he just makes a decision in the end of the cost is too high. i'm rooting for our diplomats, but i think a big diplomatic agreement is probably unlikely in the often. >> on that point, your point about quandary certainty, there was a reason for all the cree be subterfuge, all the men in -- deniability which was necessary in some ways for it and not be like a hungry in the 19 50s mode of the tanks rolling in. and it does seem to me like this is not what's gonna happen here, and there is kind of shock to the conscious when one country rolls tags into a boarding country. >> yeah, i mean this invasion and the atrocities that come with it will be televised. >> the whole world is watching because there has been so much hype in the lead up to this potential invasion, so much attention. and again, as i said, i don't i think that the damage is just going to be absolutely catastrophic to russia if they go forward with this. i mean, yes, right now there is some division within the transatlantic alliance about exactly how tough week it was sanctions. but to the extent that our couple european nations that right now aren't willing to do the tough stuff, it might be because they don't rushes believe is actually gonna go through with this. and when they do, and when the cell phone videos come out of all the awful atrocities, that set of sanctions might be a lot tougher than putin really thinks it's gonna be. >> all right, senator chris murphy, thank you very much, appreciate. that is all up in on this monday night, the rachel maddow no-show starts right now. >> good evening chris, feels like old times. >> really wonderful, yeah, great. >> thanks my friends, to you soon. >> and thanks to at-home for joining us this hour was march 1978 it was early in the morning at 6:30 in the morning it was a friday. and it was at the hairy as truman presidential library and independence, missouri. it was 6:30 the morning the library wasn't due to open up until regular business hours at

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