it will be used to compel witness testimony and may make recommendations concerning criminal rgs. that's what make it is a potentially legally serious move ask why famously bob mueller worked through the grand jury system. all of this comes as a trump aid admits involvement in a plot to put forward fraudulent or alternative electors. that happened here on msnbc on the beat and we have more on that ahead, including my breakdown dealing with some of the questions i have heard from viewers about what happened on friday. but the top story now is president biden dealing with these world threats on multiple fronts. a political opposition that is brazen about its lack of an agenda other than saying it will obstruct or even try to jail the opposition party. we have fears that are very real over russia invaiding ukraine, putting troops on high alert for possible deployments. the state department evacuating staff from ukraine, which is one sign of what they are worried about. and against this backdrop it, you have the kind of thing that reminds you the president sees a full-time and unpredictable job because people are worried about markets and inflation and wall street a wild day, stocks dropping before then staging a late comeback and closing up, but many do not like the unpredictability. biden meeting with a advisers on those shaking up, the relate are issue of i object flags. the biden administration is rolling out $400 million new and free masks this week to teal with ko vid. the omicron wave is going in the right direction. you're looking at the challenges of governing in a political environment where top republicans including mitch mcconnell say they don't have a legislative agenda for the midterms and they are not going to share one. and then, to his right or base or whatever you want to call it, you have voices openly vowing that if they win back the house, they will literally try to get opponents jailed ask opponents impeached, no matter what. >> when you have a republican congress, this is going to come crashing down and the wols are going to find out they are sheep and they are the ones who are going to face a risk of jail for the kind of laws that are breaking. >> think think there are potentially multiple grounds to consider for impeachment. >> write it down. this november is about one thing. it's impeaching joe biden. while president biden has had some setbacks in this first year, you might think someone seek the votes of the public would talk about inflation or covid or things affecting real people's lives. not saying that the biggest priority is impeaching him or jailing him. as the nation faces very real challenges. we want to bring in a special expert who knows not only how this all works, chairman michael steele, but also for straight talk. i turn the floor over to you. wet went through why it's tough times, but your thoughts, sir? >> it is a tough time and a tough job. it's great to be with you, ari, to have this conversation. look, if the thing tells you what it is, it shows its true colors, why do we refuse to accept it? when the former speaker of the house tells you that come next year, republicans have the house and the senate, people are going to go to jail. if you have steve bannon and others telling you that this election is about one thing and one thing only, the impeachment of joe biden, i don't understand how americans look at that and say, yeah, we want more of that. because that's what you voted against. >> so specifically on that, because i like to get your perspective. you have been at these upper echelons. why doesn't that hurt them more by sounding political? it would seem if you say, hey, here's the problems with joe biden that relate back to why it's harder to buy groceries or covid didn't go the way they said it would, that might resinate more. why to you think that this is even seen as a good idea to focus on impeaching biden, a as if it that's going to help people get the groceries or get over the next wave of omicron? >> because it's not about people getting their groceries or over omicron. it's about how many clicks and likes and dollars get funneled into accounts that's what steve bannon is doing and what the speaker is doing. this funds an underlying operation. once the ballots are cast, you have to have the money in place to put the challenges in place. on your way to casting the ballots, you have to have the cash in place to make sure the people who need to get paid to take care of certain things or certain ends of the business, they are paid. so there's a lot hr. this run up is not about establishing a narrative around policy. mitch mcconnell has already told us that. what are you for? wait and find out. give us the power, and then we'll let you know. so as i have been saying for the past six or seven months, and i will continue to emphasize this through november, america, what's your priority here? i get it. there's a lot to be upset at joe biden about. there's a they mishandled politically, but at the end of the day, when you stack up this administration against the previous administration, when you stack up the leadership in the house and the senate against those who want to grab the power back, compare jim jordan to nancy pelosi or compare mitch mcconnell against chuck schumer in terms of their agenda, we can have that fight, you and i, over the policy, but that's not the fight the republicans are going to bring come january of 2023. it's about policymaking, it's about how we use the system against those who turned us out of power. and that's the big setup for 2024. because if trump gets reelected, what do you think his agenda is going to be? retribution. revenge. it is about hauling the biden administration, if not the former president himself, in front of their tibunals to complete the work that they could not get completed on january 6th. >> so when you put it like that, it's really not a political process, but one of holding the bear cage at the justice department really has to in a nonpartisan way protect democracy and continue these probes in a way that's both unimpeachable but pin punish what is you're talking about so people don't think they can get away with it. >> that's the key thing. at the crux of all of this, accountability, when you're no longer held accountable for the things you do, the words you say, the actions you take as an elected official, as someone in power under our constitution, an oath that you swore to uphold, if you're not held accountable for your actions, then guess what, you continue to commit those acts. and so we have km to rely after 240 years of jurisprudence on a justice system, as fraud as it is from time to time, that in the end, the underlying foundations of our system are going to be fortified by the prosecution of those who seek to undermine the toogs and to create disequilibrium inside the balance of power between the branches of government. so all of this is connected. so we are going to look to the garland justice department to do the right thing. not by some political outcome or not by joe biden's agenda, but do the right thing by the american people. we witnessed the attempted taking down of our government. so what's the price that you pay for that? is it just a slap on the wrist? do you get to defoul the importance of a subpoena because you don't want to appear? because you think you have some political card that you can play to get you out of that legal trouble? well, you can't look at the country and say that those who perpetrated that act get the free pass and then look at the brothers and sisters who are now standing in line before their day in court or just sethed a subpoena and expect them to adhere to that same justice system and follow those same rules. >> yeah, lay it out and that's why i wanted to start with you one-on-one. i want to thank you. it overlaps what we were discussing. i prepared a special report on this new revelation about the electors plot that trump admitted here on "the beat" and some of their new response. >> everything that was done was done illegally by the trump legal team. >> as the legal team, it was our job to make sure every contingency was covered. so hence the process that was undertaken. >> all the stuff leading up to jackpot 6th, it was worked on. >> it's a an important accountability story that we'll stay on. also the politics democrats bearing down on krysten sinema. and then the best-selling novelest james patterson are live on "the beat." stay with us. beat. stay with us moment wherever you chose. medusa lived with a hideous curse. uhh, i mean the whole turning people to stone thing was a bit of a buzz kill, right? so she ordered sunglasses with prime, one day delivery. ♪♪ clever girl. people realized she's actually hilarious once you get to know her. eugh. as if. ♪♪ well, he was asking for it. prime changes everything. ben isn't worried about retirement his personalized plan is backed by 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superman! not because he could fly, but because superman stood up for people. maybe it's because of our family's own immigrant story, or he's just that nerdy. throughout his career in the obama administration and the private sector, bilal has never stopped helping others. we don't need a superhero to solve san francisco's biggest problems like crime and homelessness, just the innovation and courage to lead. join me. now we turn to tonight's special report. it begins with the attack on american democracy that donald trump it vowed before the 2020 november election even hit election day. in fact, he continued along those lines digging into an attack on the idea that the results would ever be followed. this was really something that became clear around 2:30 in the morning late into election night. there was no formal result at that hour, but he could see the signs. right then he began lying that he won the election, a an attempt to override his loss, which then continued as he later put pressure in demanding local republicans try to overrule what their own voters did. and to put in fraudulent electors falsely claiming trump won. >> frankly, we did win this election. >> so we'll be going to the u.s. supreme court. >> trump has also invited the republican leaders of the michigan house and senate to meet with him at the white house tomorrow, even though both said they have no plans for any long-shot maneuvers aimed at the republican legislature naming an alternate set of electors for michigan. they are trying to just overturn the election and install the president in power. >> fact check, true. so some of that played out in public. it failed and a failed plat to steal the election may seem less ominous or gray because we know it did fail. but a failed plot to end american democracy is still important. a failed plot that happens in the open but is misunderstood minimize and never punishes more dangerous for next time. as more evidence about this plot came out, journalists have been bearing down on it. in fact, it happened in some of the new revelations have broken on msnbc with rachel maddow digging into it for weeks. . >> republicans forged documents and impersonated electors to make it look like trump had won their state so they could be substituted if the january 6th plot worked. turns out it wasn't just wisconsin. here's republicans in michigan and arizona pretending to be their state's electors, pretending to be electors for trump. they actually created these fake documents purporting to be the real certifications of them as electors. the forged documents all match. this would, therefore, appear to be a coordinated effort. it turns out it was rudy. rudy giuliani and associates directly conveyed to mike pence and his staff that pence should count the fake ones when it came time to tally up the electoral college results on january 6th. it wasn't one state. it wasn't three states where they did this. it was at least five states where we have now obtained forged documents created by republicans. >> the wider coordinated plot is starting to come into view. and it looks even worse. the evidence shows it looks more serious now. it looks like the trump campaign got closer than in realized at the time. so even as the press and the responsible parts of the american public took the january 6th insurrection quite seriously, the mechanics of that day are still coming into view. with trump's own aids and lawyers under heat for a playbook they could try to use again. the january 6th committee is probing all of this with questions about how high, how coordinated this it plot was. was it just random republicans doing pranks which involved illegal forgery, or was it lead by the trump campaign, which makes it so much more serious. the recent reporting is going in a that it direction and if so, who exactly lead it? and when you come to reporting on who led it? is it an accusation where people allege trump aids led this bad thing, but some spin it or deny it? the committee just subpoenaed four trump lawyers last amidst some of these. when subpoenaed trump lawyer boris epstein joined me friday along with a trump white house vet and organizer of the january 6th rally, this was a chance to actually learn new things and get people on the record. now there are many types of questions, but it starts with the plot to use fraudulent or alternate electors to override the votes in these states that biden won. which the authorities in the states found he won, which the courts then affirmed. so installing false and fraudulent electors in those states looks like stealing an election in an attempt to do so. under questioning, epstein admitted he was in on that plot. >> did you ever make calls like that regarding what you're calling these alternate electors? >> i was quoted in the last 24 hours, i was part of the process to make sure there were alternate electors for the challenges to the seated electors would be heard and successful. part of the constitution and the electoral count act. >> epstein admitted a bomb shell on live tv. he personally tried to install those electors. which would override the actual lawful votes in that state. understandably, this is sparking headlines about a lawyer fessing up the plot and brazenly admit ing that the scheme was under the headline "trump adviser acknowledges being part of 2020 alternate electors". the plan was to abuse partisan is power at the state level to stael the election. the failed plan is to commit the alternate mass voter fraud. and you have to understand how this would work this their minds, which we're learning about. to create enough confusion through the slates of electors who were claiming to override the votes that biden won into the state, ask they might use that confusion through congress to then deny the certificaion of the election. and then use that to somehow keep trump in office even though he lost. epstein insists they in their opinion viewed their plan as a, quote, legal way to overturn the results. but there are many ways this plot could be deemed criminal. from standard forgery and fraud to conspireing to hinder the administration of u.s. law to breaking other election laws and as a matter of lawyering, epstein was clear on another point. he wasn't doing this alone. this was not a solo plot. he said, he told me, trump lawyer rudy giuliani led it all as he went about all of those off beat press conferences and spread conspiracy theories. >> everything that was done was done illegally by the trump legal team according to the rules and under the leadership of rudy giuliani. we fought for the truth. >> good to know it was all under rudy giuliani's leadership. from the lawyer who worked alongside him. that's what we call confirmation on the record. that may become a receipt. it's from an inside player. and it fits into what the evidence and reporting suggests, because as i mentioned, some of what we know we only know because of the work of the journalists and ore mediums. rudy giuliani was the ring leader trying to overturn the election through electors in seven states, possibly more we don't know about yet. none of this is a drill. what may have looked quite absurd and futile and not that threatening to democracy in the moment and what did fail, we we are learn figure we pay attention was more organized plot to combine forgely, lies and maybe some legal methods, which is to say it maybe true that the aspects would not be technically crimes. put it altogether to turn the january 6th certificatety indication into a procedural blood bath where there would be fights our lapd skap about which were real and there are these questions and look at this forged document. epstein and bannon were pumping up the power as they went into this ross. and even though everyone knew which states biden won and we have a process for that with success tears of state and the courts, we have to be very clear this is why i'm reporting this out for you with the information from other journalists and our own primary reporting on "the beat" and our interviews, these lawyers thought if they had enough trump electors in those biden states and stoked enough disinformation, enough lies, this would be a tangible step to steal the whole thing with pressure on pence to claim trump won or short of that to at least use the electoral mess they made, confusion about the electors that is a product of their forgeries to then try to claim that day that the lek tors for each state were in legitimate doubt. they weren't legally, but that would be the maneuver. remember, people didn't know how pence would come down. that's why i mentioned some of these things look less scary when you know the ending like watching a scary movie the second time. this is not a movie that it people were trying to get this done and a different official or future election might roll differently. pence was in on everything trump ever wanted him to do. until january 6th. when he broke, he broke with the authoritarian plot. low bar and also to help keep you out of jail if you don't try to break election law, but that's when he broke. his reporters note at the time, pence added new text to the usual process there. it all sounds dry and technical, so we're going to play the key part. listen for where pence says the parliamentarian advises this the certificate of votes is the only certificate and has the proper authority to appoint these electors. as you listen to this right now, keep in mind, whether you normally speak pence's language, this is how in pence you say, i'm not helping stage a coup through fake electors. >> after ascertainment has been had the certificates are authentic in corrected form. tellers will announce the votes for each state beginning with alabama. which the parliamentarian's advised me is the only certificate of vote from that state and purports to be a return from the state, and that as annexed to it a certificate from an authority of that state. >> that was his procedural reference to the plot, best we can tell. staking part of his apparent push backon what, quote, the parliamentarian advised him. it stood out then, it stands out more now. while the trump lawyers insist they had plans to submit slit slates through proper procedures and they are entitled to their defense, we want to give you all the facts. keep in mind, one, there are laws criminalizing any misuse of authority that interfere with elections. i wonder if pence's lawyer told him about that. and two, forgery is a separate and pretty clear cut crime if you have lies in writing submitted to official departments like the government or courts. if investigators were to link any of this to the storming of the capitol itself, which epstein did deny on friday, you could have separate exposure for conspiracy. and four, lawyers lose their privilege if they are found to be planning any future crime or fraud. even if someone else is the one doing the potential later crime. so that's a lot. as for the piece about what is indictable, here's michigan's attorney general. >> under state law, clearly, you have forgery of a public record, and election law, which is a five-year offense. this is a matter that is best investigated and potentially prosecuted by the feds. >> both of us have been asked a lot what was legal, what was illegal, and i think it's important to emphasize that this is all unprecedented. >> best prosecuted by the feds. tonight we know some authorities have made an official referral to the justice department about this. that's feds. other probes may be in the works without public confirmation at the state and local level. when you take it altogether, you nvr know which evidence maybe the breakout smoking gun, the gun smokes in its own way and own time. what you do when you're trying to find facts, which is the intersection of independent law and any good faith journalism is you try to go to the sources in the evidence, that's what we have been doing here, you try to ascertain what the best evidence suggests about the facts and you always go to the sources, if they will talk. some will, some won't. if they talk, you listen. we're back in one minute. y talkn some help from fidelity, and she'll feel so good about her plan, she can focus on living it. that's the planning effect, from fidelity. and it's easy to get a quote at libertymutual.com so you only pay for what you need. isn't that right limu? limu? sorry, one sec. doug blows a whistle. [a vulture squawks.] oh boy. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty♪ >> woman: what's my safelite story? only pay for what you need. >> vo: my car is more than four wheels. it's my after-work decompression zone. so when my windshield broke... >> woman: what?! >> vo: ...i searched for someone who really knew my car. i found the experts at safelite autoglass. with their exclusive technology, they fixed my windshield... then recalibrated the camera attached to my glass so my safety systems still work. who knew that was a thing?! >> woman: safelite has service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ we are back with former prosecutor jill winebanks. thanks for being here. your reaction specifically to the mounting evidence regaring what was a coordinated effort to try to override the votes in several states. >> i think you made a very compelling opening statement to show a conspiracy to interfere with the election, to interfere with an official congressional proceeding, to commit forgery within the federal laws and certainly within each state's laws. you noted that two of the states caveated their forgeries by saying this is only good in the event that the legitimate slate of democratic electors fails. then we become the lek tors. but the other states all said we are the dually elected electors. that is clearly forgery. and there is a forgery statute not for forging money, which is normal hi how you think of forgery, but for other government-related documents. this is clearly a government-related document that could have had a very dramatic impact because if you were presented with two things that said they were the official electors and you had to say, well, we'll count this one or this one, how would you know? we all know because we watched the election returns. we know who won each state. but that doesn't make the attempt any less criminal. it is a crime, and there is nothing about -- i mean, your interview with boris epstein was amazing. he can say we did this all legally. he department do it legally. you can't create an alternate slate of electors. that is wrong. >> having a plan or a memo is different from if it meets the test and other independent authorities deal with that on forgery. bannon and epstein have spoken. and again, to get at the facts and also fact check, here's some of their new reaction after the is interview. take a look. >> all i did was very calmly, methodically walk through the law as the legal team. it was our job to make sure every constituency was covered. so hence the process that was understake taken. it was loud and clear that, one, president trump won the election. two, that it was stolen. two, a legal case was laid out. >> all the stuff leading up to 6th january, everything was worked on, 100% legal. >> jill, that's the latest. your response? >> i would like to be the lawyer on the other side arguing that was not legal. there was no contingency in existence. it was clear who won the votes in that state. we have a rule where count the votes of the people. not the people who wanted to be somebody else. but if you vote, your vote gets counted. you vote for an elector and only that elector can represent you and cast the ballot at the electoral college. we should amend the electoral college act. we should eliminate the electoral college. we have ways of communicating that do not require the electoral college as it was set up in a time there wasn't the official communication methods that we now have. but even under the laws now, there was nothing legal about what they did. and the elector slates were certified ors aer attendanced is the official word, were ascertained by each state, signed off by the governor and sent officially to the congress to be counted. and then these fraudulent people, it's also important to note when you vote, you are voting for an elector on the ballot. and some of the people who were on the ballot said, we didn't win. i'm not signing the certificate. so the people in charge of this under rudy giuliani recruited people who weren't ever even on the ballot. so in addition to signing a fraudulent document, there were fraudulent people on it. >> that's an important point you raise, i mentioned if this were some high jinx, random people with no campaign involvement, you really would deal with that on the side like any local forgery. the recruitment of other individuals legally goes to intent. i also want to play some of the other parts of the interview because there's an overlap between officials that they could, they claim, legally keep him in power. here's a little bit more from what we got on friday. >> that was part of the process to make sure there were alternate electors for when the challenges to the seated electors would be heard and would be successful. >> my rule with "the washington post" calls the coup, that we call the green bay sweep was simply to look at the analysis of what happened in the election. i started that on thanksgiving day of 2020. >> i certainly would caution anyone against going to work for trump campaign. i will be looking to support somebody else in the republican primary. >> a range of reactions from people who had different roles on january 6th. your thoughts big picture not only strictly legal, but as someone who was so involved in dealing with watergate and the aftermath about what we're hearing from these people and this moment we're in where in fairness, some people seem to be changing a bit, at least when it comes to whether they want to have a working democracy, and others seem to be trying to normalize the thing that was forged. >> i would say they are all brazen in their attempt to justify this. that they are admitting in public their guilt. when i first heart peter navorro say whag he said, well, okay, that's going to be used fwens you in a court of law because you admitted your guilt. and all of these people have done things that are wrong that cannot be justified. the green bay sweep reminded me of operation gemstone, which was the original basis for the democratic national committee break in that lead to the watergate indictments. it was an absurd and ridiculous plan. it goes along with the power point that was presented of all the different ways they could interfere with counting the electoral college votes. to lay the vote or get time to get states to change their mind, that's not how democracy works. and it's very, very distressing. this is much, much worse thanner watergate. watergate never threatened democracy. it did threaten the department of justice, it did threaten justice, but ultimately there were facts that erbe agreed on. democrats and republicans and all of the media had one set of facts, and that led to a resignation and convictions. and that's what needs to happen here. we somehow have to get back to people accepting what is true. what is fact. and repeating the big lie is all part of the conspiracy to undo our elections. and that's wrong. >> jill, with a final word in this program on the big issue, thank you very much. we have a quick break. but coming up, the new pressure on senator sinema and why liberals have a solution. later what's better than one best-selling author? 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it's time to ask your doctor about kesimpta. ♪3, 4♪ ♪ ♪hey♪ ♪ ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire democratic senator krysten sinema is facing backlash for helping republicans keep the filibuster alive. party leaders in arizona now uniting to censor her after her and manchin were the only two to side with republicans to not provide exception for voting rights. senator sanders says they should face primaries. >> i think what the arizona democratic party did was exactly right. if there were sure candidates who were prepared to stand up to working families, who understand that the democratic party has got to be the party of working people taking on big money interests, if those candidates were there in arizona and west virginia, yes, i would be happy to support them. >> signs of some change perhaps on the center left. we're joined by joan walsh, national affairs correspondent and friend of "the beat." >> thank, ari. >> i think viewers are very familiar with the tendency for more challenges in primaries and more types of heavy pressure campaigns on the right than the left, do you see this as something new and possibly productive if it is used well by the left? >> using it well is really the question. i don't know that i think a primary of joe manchin is a good idea. he's had several primary challengerers. they don't do well. arizona is totally arizona. i totally believe sinema could lose a democratic pimary in arizona. i hope she gets a challenger. but part of me doesn't know if she even cares. i think the number one thing i can say about her, i don't know what's about her core, but she seems like a narcissist. she doesn't care about what the activists are saying about her. i'm not sure she intends to run again. she has all this financial industry hundred. she could have a great career in either industry and make a fortune. i'm not sure we're scaring her with these threats, but i certainly hope somebody steps up to run against her if she runs. >> interesting points. you sort of distinguishing the lumping or the emotional ways that people might look at those two senators together and say you have to look at the facts. as for her standing in the democratic party, she took a generalized support, we have the numbers here. 60% in 2020, 67% in 2021. that's pretty good in your own party when you're new and doesn't have 100% name i.d. it's plummeted to be one of the biggest drops in recent era of anyone in any party for any reason to 8%. >> i think she did that to herself. i mean, she really came to national attention when she voted against the minimum wage, which she used to support. she did it wearing her jaunty outfit doing a little curtesy in the well and giving a big thumbs down. she wanted that negative attention. she wanted attention. she's gotten positive attention from republicans. they lined up to shake her hand when she killed voting rights by not changing senate rules. she likes that attention. she likes the money. i don't think it matters to her what the activists, the people that i know that gave her money, who walked for her, they are furious. but i think she's turned her sights to a whole different set of folks. we'll see what she does and how it turns out for her. >> copy. was curious where you came down on that because the pressure is news breaking. joan, thank you. we have two authors standing by. it's patterson and lupica, next. . . it's patterson and lupica, next. i like that the ww personalpoints plan is built just for me. join today for 50% off at ww.com hurry! offer ends january 24th! some people say if you want to see america, join today for 50% off at ww.com see it on the 4th of july. but america is just as beautiful on the 4th of january or february. stripped of its leaves but not drained of its color. no one experiences a true american winter the same way. but those with the confidence and capability of the all new 2022 grand wagoneer will remember the adventure as long as they live. such tree-mendous views. i'm at a moss for words. when a cough tries to steal dad's punchlines, he takes robitussin naturals powered by 100% drug-free ingredients. are you gonna leaf me hanging? 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[announcer] there he goes. old spice works harder for longer. hey derrick man, you gonna be much longer? it's gonna be a minute, minute. hey derrick, quit playin'. derrick! what happens when you block heartburn with one prilosec otc in the morning? heartburn doesn't stand a chance - day... or night. excess stomach acid can cause heartburn. prilosec otc works differently by preventing excess acid production. so don't fight heartburn, block it. prilosec otc. one pill in the morning blocks heartburn, all day and all night. there's a lot of different things going on these days, but did you know 35 million people watched that kansas chiefs game this a total roller coaster? it was the largest television audience. it's a reminder of the way that sports still captivates our polarized nation, even in a modern world where you could literally watch anything from any time, anywhere on your screens and phones. people come together for football and sports. and that brings us to something different to end tonight's is show. at least our last interview segment, which is two best selling authors that taemed up for a boog that digs into why people care about these things. the book is "the horsewoman" novel about a mother and daughter e quest wins. thanks to both of you for being here. james, we had you back earlier and we talked to you because you had quite a life. people always ask me why so many stories about questions on the news. every night i do this, you know. [ laughter ] >> you know, football, great athletes and transition into the great athletes in this story, which are horses and the mother and daughter who compete to go to the olympics. and just the suspension of this is one of these sports like when you watch gymnastics in the olympics, one mistake and you're out. you know, four years of training and it's down the drain just like the buffalo bills went down last night. >> i joke about the horse part but the sports part is so real. what is it about the mixture of competition, what you just said, the desired or required precision and the relationships here, these women who are so talented and forging this bond? >> mike? >> well, we've got two horses, two women but one goal. to make it to the paris olympics and then you -- and these horses become -- ari, they become characte in this book. my daughter has been doing this since she was 10 years old and you can give the horse the greatest ride in the world and if you catch one rail, you're out. so there is that tension you get in gymnastics or watching a figure skater try to make a landing, knowing that if she doesn't stick the landing, that she blows her chance at a gold medal and what we try to do in this book seriously is put you on that horse and in that ring in a sport where teenagers compete against women in their 60s, men compete against women. we love this sport. >> yeah, and every book that i do whether alex cross or this, i want the emotion of the main characters and you get it with maggie and becky and then the suspension. who is going to get to the olympics? mother and daughter, if there is mother daughter book clubs about this book, and some favor maggie and some favor becky and will either one of them win and as we both said, the suspension of the contest itself. >> yeah. i got another question that's kind of weird now if i ask you james, will you punt it over to mike? >> i don't know. we'll see. it won't be a punt, it will be like a pass. >> fair. >> yeah, quarterback for the moment. >> hey, you guys know a lot of sports better than i do. if it sounds correct, it would be like an assist, not a punt. i digress. the question is this, how does this set of relationships also relate to the way that people can bond so much with an animal? the way that people feel this is competitive or sports conduct but people feel with this with pets, grieving a pet's loss can be serious. walk us through where that relationship fits through the story. >> absolutely. the relationships of the mother and daughter and each have their own horse is incredibly strong and the horse has a strong relationship -- unlike thoroughbred racing where the jockey comes on and may not be somebody who has ridden before. the horse and rider have been riding together for years. >> mike, same question but is it any different with horses than, say, other pets or other things people relate to with animals and their households? >> yeah, their they're a lot bigger, ari. >> right, mike? >> yeah, ari, that's another thing. it was time for this sport to give back to me because my daughter has been doing it since she was 10. no, we have a scene where the horse falls on one of the riders in our story. i won't tell you which one but it informs the whole rest of the book and i spoke to some riders and said what's that like? they said it's like the sky fell on you and that's an element -- >> doesn't have much of an imagination. he can't imagine what it would be like for a horse to fall on him. >> i mean, i -- you know, i -- it's not like -- >> that's good. >> it's not like -- >> that's what happens, a fiction rider and non-fiction rider together, that's great. >> well, that takes me where i wanted to go next, you guys clearly have a rapport. i get you enjoyed writing the book together. that's a fair statement. we feel like we really know him but how does he compare as a co-author to other people you've had? you famously wrote with bill clinton himself -- >> we have dolly parton coming in march. no, i tell you what, mike is the best writer i've ever worked with. >> get out of here. >> he and president clinton are both good looking guys. what we'll do is we can almost complete each other's thoughts in the book going back and forth. i start to think, and then i sink into the paper. >> like i was ink. maybe, ari, maybe that wasn't exactly our original writing. that might be -- >> might have been routine. >> that might be routine. but i just want you to get a sense -- >> we like nicki minaj and megan the stallion, which gets us back to horses. >> hey, i love it. man, i love it was thought out and prepared. i was thinking andre 3000 when he says he wants a simple life but then he says well, i also want a horse and a porch and bullets that scorch and of course, the porch is also the horse logo of the porch so i was thinking horse literally but you guys took it there. love it. >> another place. >> i tell you what, you think ari can sit with us, we could be a threesome, next book. >> shutout -- >> america's favorite sport, politics. >> that's fair, too. you guys have too much fun. now i got to wrap. i love a shoutout to raw kim and i love you probably know black on both sides, quote that same line. culture is an echo, appreciate you guys. james and mike and let me shutout again, "the horsewoman" is out now. we'll be right back. the horsewo is out now we'll be rig bhtack. your plain aspirin could be hurting your stomach. vazalore... is the first liquid-filled aspirin capsule clinically shown to cause fewer ulcers than plain aspirin. try new vazalore. aspirin made amazing! to make my vision a reality. i have to take every perspective, and see clearly from every point of view. with my varilux progressive lenses i seamlessly transition from near to far. and see every detail in sharp focus. when you see no limits, there are no limits. book now at your local essilor experts to push the limits of your vision. varilux lenses by essilor. what happens when we welcome change? 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