omicron and the good news on the so-called winter surge that may be ebbing in some areas. some are asking where the line is when the goalpost keeps moving. so many people feel two years to the day when covid first formally hit the u.s. >> there is now a report from the center for disease control that they have the first u.s. case of that coronavirus. >> now to growing concerns about the deadly coronavirus officially hitting the u.s. >> this is patient one, the first known covid case in the country. >> patient one-two years ago today. we now know the grim toll. the numbers can not capture the humanity of 860,000 americans dead. health experts say omicron could hit half of our population. >> if you assume that we're only diagnosing one in five cases, probably upwards of 23%, 25% of americans have been infected and that many may be infected on the back end. we may get 40%, 50% of americans infected with this by mid-february. >> about 9 million workers called out sick from covid in a two-week span from january to february. hospitalization are 82% full. spillover effects means your care could be compromised even if it has nothing to do with covid. the data shows the good news is the boosters are 97% effective from going to the hospital. that's the science. in politics, you have florida governor ron desantis still bad-mouthing boosters and dodging. >> governor, have you received your covid booster shot? >> so that's something that, you know, i think people should make their own decisions on. i'm not going to let that be a weapon for people to be able to use. i think it's a private matter. >> i'm joined now by an infectious disease expert at the university of boston university and scientist dr. goldberg. doctor, your thoughts two years in. >> we're seeing good news, hospitalizations starting to decrease in some parts of the northeast. and the rest of the country is seeing decreased cases in the south and midwest with the west trailing behind a little bit. the hospitalizations, though, are still very high, and one of the differences in this case n this particular surge, it's not just the numbers. it's also that this affected health care workers in terms of people who had to call out sick because so many of us got infected at the same time, and that affected the hospital's ability to handle patients coming in potentially with the surge. the other part is that in general the hospital beds and icu beds t staff beds, the number working to make those hospital bed resources, those went down over the last few months. those have gone down by 4%. so our resilience has gone down, which has made this month particularly hard. >> yeah. michelle, howard stern was speaking out on tucker carlson. take a look. >> when are we going to stop putting up with the idiots in the country and just say it's mandatory to get vaccinated. [ bleep ] them, [ bleep ] freedom. i want my freedom to live. >> he's now a coward, and his broadcast is about cowardice, amplifying his fears about crohn and precisely attacking anybody else who has decided to live life as a free person. >> michelle, your turn to raise the discourse for what we've just heard. >> i'm not sure i'm the right person to do that. look, it's so striking how the right, the republican party, has morphed into the antivax party, how fox news, as you've said on this show so many times, has its own vaccine mandate for is employee, still spouting antivax propaganda, mocking those who get the booster and those who get infected. lara logan is speak at an antivax rally in d.c. this weekend. you have desantis. you have in virginia glenn youngkin is expanding unemployment insurance for people who lose their jobs because they refuse to get vaccinated, basically paying people not to get vaccinated, and so, you know, no politician, no political coalition could have controlled omicron. but what i think you see the right doing and the republican party doing is everything in their party is to make it worse, more prolonged, more painful. >> michelle do, you get the sense governor desantis did get the booster and doesn't want people to know? >> if i had to guess, that's what i would guess because, you know, look, i think that his base is hostile to vaccines, and i think he would only have everything to gain by saying, you know, no, enough is enough, i didn't get that booster, right? i don't think he would really lose any political capital for saying he didn't get it, but, you know, he's not an idiot, and he's smart enough to protect himself from a raging epidemic, but if he is smart enough to protect himself from a raging epidemic, he doesn't have the integrity to urge other people do the same if it might alienate some of his base. we've seen donald trump who until very recently could no wrong with most of the right. he's talked about his own booster. and that's when people start booing. that's when he lost them. it's really striking at this point the republican party or much of the base of the republican party is even more antivax or antibooster or anti-covid mitigation than trump. >> doctor, how do you stack it up when they say it takes time and you have to track it as it comes in, but this latest omicron, how does it track the booster's progress there. >> yeah. i think you showed the cdc study. it's so important to stress that because we are lag behind many other industrialized countries in terms of the number of people who have taken the boosters. the studies today show that not only in the age of omicron, the boosters not only helped with severe disease and hospitalizations, but also with infection. you can see that with the numbers like in new york city where there's a clear difference -- we already knew about the hospitalization and death. those of us who work within the walls of the hospital, we know the vast majority of those are critically ill for covid itself are coming in because they're unvaccinated. so we need to make sure we paint that. the benefits are clear. the other thing i want to paint, you talk about reaching that balance. how do we find ourselves out of this. we haven't reached it yet, but what that term means is you have a steady growth, expected amount of growth of infections. you come to a balance. and that balance is struck by two competing courses, right? on the left you have the waning immunity and the fact we might need to get boosters, and what does it mean when there are parts of our own country speaking out against the vaccines? this is going to be a struggle for a really long time. and on the right side we have these new tools in hand, the antiviral pills, the cross-variants. so we have to keep balancing these two things. i just feel i wish there were more people on the left side encouraging vaccination so we could move the tally toward normalcy faster. >> doctor, what do you think about the public health messaging because people are confused or wrongly believe that because omicron is bad and covid is not going away, that means vaccines are not working when, in fact, they're a great way to keep you out of the hospital. >> they are. and i really hope that's -- you know, there's so much confusion. i really hope people look at numbers for themselves. look at the numbers. cdc has started publishing the difference between the vaccination and hospitalization rates between people who are vaccinate and those who are not. in new york city, it's 15 times the difference, whether you're vaccinated versus not vaccinated. honestly, you know, we talk about, oh, this is an individual choice. this is an individual choice, but it's a civic responsibility because if you end up in the hospital with covid because you were not vaccinated, you're potentially taking another icu bed and that affects everybody. it's your civic responsibility to protect yourself because you're taking away a public health resource that we're all using. >> really well put. as we mark this anniversary, there are signs of progress. my thanks to both of you. we turn next to the breaking news on a trump white house plan that would have tried to get the military involved in overturning the election. it's a scandal and part of our special coverage tonight as i somewhere a very special report that's going to go to the facts, and i can tell you you will not see it anywhere else. i'm going to explain it in depth right after this break. it in dh right after this break my auntie called me. she said uncle's had a heart attack. i needed him to be here. your heart isn't just yours. protect it with bayer aspirin. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. this... is the planning effect. this is how it feels to have a dedicated fidelity advisor looking at your full financial picture. this is what it's like to have a comprehensive wealth plan with tax-smart investing strategies designed to help you keep more of what you earn. and set aside more for things like healthcare, or whatever comes down the road. this is "the planning effect" from fidelity. we gotta tell people that liberty mutual customizes car insurance so you only pay for what you need, and we gotta do it fast. 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[announcer] there he goes. old spice works harder for longer. hey derrick man, you gonna be much longer? it's gonna be a minute, minute. hey derrick, quit playin'. derrick! >> vo: my car is my after-work decompression zone. ♪ music ♪ >> vo: so when my windshield broke... i found the experts at safelite autoglass. they have exclusive technology and service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ why does walgreens offer prescription copays as low as zero dollars? ♪♪ so you won't have a medicare in the world. ♪♪ fill your medicare prescriptions with walgreens and save. growing up, bilal was obsessed, obsessed with superman! not because he could fly, but because superman stood up for people. maybe it's because of our family's own immigrant story, or he's just that nerdy. throughout his career in the obama administration and the private sector, bilal has never stopped helping others. we don't need a superhero to solve san francisco's biggest problems like crime and homelessness, just the innovation and courage to lead. join me. big news tonight. stoking grave questions about how trump advisers wants to abuse the military to potentially overturn election. this is damaging information that came from inside the white house. aides molded a brazen plan that would have attempted to order the military to, quote, seize vote machines. why are we learning this right now? "politico" reporting the executive draft order that was not ever issued is coming out now because it's in the pile of documents that trump tried to block that was just cleared which green-lit hundreds of pages for hundreds of investigators. that was one of the lead development this week as the committee plowed ahead with new s&ps if trump's campaign lawyers as you see there. that includes rudy giuliani and the man you see on your right, boris epshteyn. there was also a new push to get separate testimony from ivanka trump, all of this in the house probe. and down in georgia, the d.a. seeking information looking into a criminal probe into trump's election tampering specifically in that state. now, i just went through all the news from just this week. it's a lot. and that brings us, as i mentioned, to a special exclusive segment that we're doing on the beat tonight as the house probe of the insurrection puts so much heat on these principles i just mentioned. well, i can tell you what we're about do you literally will not see anywhere else. it's our exclusive for you when we're back after our shortest break in just 60 seconds. short short break in just 60 secondsuse. big boi kitchen! big boi waterfall shower! big boi crawl space. big boi sold sign, big boi logo. realtor.com to each their home. amazing. jerry, you gotta to see this. seen it. trust me, after 15 walks... gets a little old. ugh wondering what actually goes into your multi-vitamin. at new chapter. its innovation organic ingredients and fermentation. fermentation? yes, formulated to help your body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness well done. the house probe went into overdrive this week with the win at the supreme court and new subpoenas for trump campaign lawyers, and now on the beat we turn to a special seg mejt to get at the facts with some of the very witnesses the congressional committee is eyeing. the interviews you're about to see, the reporting we're about to share with you can help us all go deeper inside this investigation. so now we turn to live interviews with some people who have direct involvement in some of the events on or around january 6th. we're joined by trump campaign lawyer boris epshteyn in the news because he was subpoenaed just this week along with the other trump lawyers. he's a veteran of the white house and both trump campaigns including working with rudy giuliani in that tense post-election period. tonight i'll also interview white house veteran peter navarro who planned to overturn the election results in a, quote, dubbed a plot to overthrow the government peacefully. and then i'll speak with dustin stockton who was at the rally who provided testimony of the same probe. we'll hear from each of these officials and witnesses tonight live right now beginning with white house trump officer peter navarro. i would like to start with you. one, has the house probe requested your cooperation? >> no. >> was it wrong for people to storm the capitol on january 6th? >> yes. >> was it wrong to try to overturn the election to keep trump in office? >> no, not legally. we -- everything i did was clearly between the lines. >> so let's get into the depth. you say not legally, which means you think what you did and what advocated, a way to try to take it to the house and overturn the results was legal. since the last time we spoke, there have been developments on the criminal side of this. as you know, an indictment for the oath keepers leader on sedition conspiracy. the fact pattern is different, but i would note that the government alleges there that the government -- >> which government just to be clear? >> the justice department. i'll let you respond, but let me read what is alleged in the indictment, which was filed, which says, basically that he was opposing by force the lawful transfer of presidential power. you said you wanted to oppose that transfer of power, just not by force. is it fair to say you and this oath keeper you have the same intent, just different methods. >> ari, look. you're doing your prosecutor thing. how about you give me a chance to talk now? is that okay? >> the question's on the table. do you share that -- >> well, look. let me -- let me play lawyer for a minute and simply play the predicate for the discussion tonight. my role in what "the washington post" calls a coup we call the green bay sweep was simply to look at the analysis of what happened in the election. i started that on thanksgiving day of 2020. i completed three reports, which i'm sure you read, ari, and i hope you'll confirm that. here's what i find, and i think there are a couple of things we can agree on. first of all, over four years after trump got elected, changes in the legislation, judicial rulings, and particularly decisions by secretaries of state, particularly in the battleground states, led to a dramatic increase in absentee and mail-in ballots at the same time there was a da dra matic decrease in the monitoring of the ballots through illegalities through things like relaxation of voter i.d., for example, and the elimination signature match. i think we can agree on that. i think we can also agree factually biden got two to three to one of absentee ballots in the battleground states, and when you put those facts together, it's clear bind won because of those changes. i describe that as grand stuff-the-ballot-box strategy by the democrats. where we disagree is either -- >> i'm letting you answer, but the question is about what you call the green bay sweep is trying to take the results and have the house override them. you gave your response, which is your view of what you think happened with the ballots. you've also said -- let me finish. >> yeah, but, ari, do we agree -- >> sir, i'm going to let you go again. i'm go and then you'll go. we did this before. >> hang on, ari. >> you used the so-called legal process, peter. you tried to argue it to go to the house. that helps donald trump not be responsible for what happened. >> you asked me, you asked me for a simple answer to your question. >> you gave your answer. >> answer my question. >> well, no. >> do you agree with me. >> peter, when you become a journalist, you can have a show and ask questions. you agreed to come in and do the interview. >> i'm here to do the interview, but i want this to be on a level playing field, ari. >> we're going to walk down to the capitol. i'll be there with you. you'll never take back our country with weakness. you have to show strength. >> that's what he said. and a you can see on the screen, the secret service advised they could. keep him safe, which is why he didn't go to the capitol. does donald trump not bear some responsibility for telling people to storm the capitol, for plan going, which you say intervened in your so-called sweep? >> i was with the boss for five years, went to numerous rallies. i never saw any violence at the rallies except for the occasional protester on the other side doing violent acts in those rallies. the mind-set of the president was rallies are peaceful in trump land. there's a lot of evidence that needs to be looked at as to how that violence got instigated. it started people like ray epps, for example, to come up in the news, but i get back to this, ari. it's like where do we disagree? i mean there's a concern here among the american people that the polls clearly show half of the americansly was a problem with that election. i'm saying to you and i'm asking you, do you agree there was a democrat magic increase in absentee and mail-in ballots that helped biden win and a decrease and possibly a lot of illegal ballots slipped through? therein lies the problem for me. i think the mind-set of the trump campaign going into january 6th is there were egregious and fraud election irregularities committed and we wanted to get to the bottom of that. that's what the green bay sweep was all about. all mike pence was supposed to do on capitol hill that day was to send -- >> yep, and we've spoken about the pens piece. i'm going to jump back in, peter. i do give you time, but it is a back-and-forth, peter. you research reinced the fact you worked closely with donald trump and that's why you're here and you didn't see the violence. that's why i quoted the sedition conspiracy violence and so much violence on tape. that's why i want to say you have a chance on tape to say -- >> you asked me a question. i asked and answered it. >> i'm going to play your response. here's how he played down the violence. take a look. take a look. >> we're going to have to fight much harder. >> right from the start there was zero threat. >> we're going to walk right down to the capitol. >> the love in the air, i've never seen anything like it. >> you'll never take back our country with weakness. >> these are peaceful people. they were great people. >> he falsely says they were peaceful people. final question, do you acknowledge they were peaceful or not? >> look. i ran the mall that day. it was all in my interim time in the trump book. did not personally observe storming the gates there. >> but you see it on tape. you know what happened. you know donald trump lied about it. >> they tore down barriers. where were the capitol hill police? where was the pentagon and national guard? why was that allowed to happen? >> i think you know that. >> that that would be allowed to happen when nancy pelosi was told there could be problems. the pentagon was told there could be problems. we only wanted peace that day. that's my bottom line, ari. the green bay sweep was a design to have a peaceful look. >> and you got some time and you know there are other guests waiting. peter, i appreciate you coming back on the beat. people can hear it and make up their own mind. we turn as promised to boris epshteyn, a lawyer for the trump campaign, subpoenaed this very week. so this is pretty newsworthy. your response to all of that? first of all, thanks for being here. >> thank you, ari. my response has been public. i am happy to share all the information about the election fraud that happened in arizona, wisconsin, georgia, and pennsylvania. of course, as you understand as a lawyer and as i believe you've reference odd on your program, subpoenaing attorneys is a major problem for this illegitimate committee, but we'll see what happens. >> yes, first we did report there is an attorney/client privilege, fact-check, true. second, when you say you'll provide evidence, is that to say you'll cooperate and provide testimony to this committee? >> my statements stand for itself. i'm happy to provide information to you, democratic committee, rinos, anybody out there. this election was stolen from president trump. president trump won the 20 election. >> so in this false claim. >> false accord dwroug. >> supreme court. >> the audience is a smart audience. >> let's go one at a time. we just heard navarre yeo talk about what he calls the sweep, what "the washington post" calls overturning the government, albeit potentially peacefully. here's you and steve. let's take a look. >> the vice president's got a lot of power, and that's very important to recognize. >> that's a huge deal. repeat that to the audience. i want to make sure everybody hears this. you've got the lead there. >> the vice president has a ton of power in terms of opening and closing electoral votes. >> all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. just understand this. all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. it's going to be moving. going to be quick. >> two important questions and i want to hear your response and i'll give you time. one wurks that a direct reference to what navarro call as sweep? was that your plan to force an outcome, and, two, did you ever plan or knowingly see the storming of the capitol t violence that day as a way to increase the likelihood of that? >> let me take number two first. absolutely not, ari. i had absolutely no idea there was going to be any violence whatsoever over at the capitol. nobody around president trump including president trump. none of us had any idea that the events at the capitol would happen. and actually i'm on record as soon as i saw the events at the capitol that any and all violence needs to stop. >> do you remember what time you tweeted that since you brought it up? >> i believe it was around in the 2:00 hour. >> it was about 2:30. it was a bit into it, but go ahead. >> there you go, ari. why did you have to ask if you already knew? thanks for pushing my twitter out there. >> why do you and peter not understand in an interview i ask questions. i ask you questions. you did say this. facts matter. you said please stay peaceful, respect the law. you posted it at 2:30, you say. so i give you back the floor to discuss the first part of the question, were you on board with what we heard from navarro, that you would kick this to the house and somehow override the results? >> well, first of all, the results are the results based on legal votes, so the results as i believe them to be based on the 83,000 unlawful ballots in maricopa county in arizona, the 200,000 unlawful bollball lots in wisconsin, the tens of thousands of unlawful ballots in georgia and the same in pennsylvania, i believe the lawful results are that president trump 20 election. in terms of january 6th, the process of the account act, there was absolutely a plan and a process for there to be challenges to the electoral vote. >> is that a yes? >> can i -- >> is that a yes? >> no. you asked a question. i'm answering a question. >> is that a yes? that's important because we may run down this in a future election. is that a yes -- >> i'm answer the question. >> you're going to get time. that is a yes, boris, that's what you and bannon were talking about, you would use the so-called account act. >> what do you mean so-called? it's an act. >> you would then try to veto the house and have trump declared the winner, is that correct? >> after the election of 1876, the account act was passed in 1876. it lays out a process to challenge electoral votes. >> okay. and you're on record -- would you be open to doing that in the future election if donald trump were to run again? >> the constitution under the 12th amend in the electoral account lays out a process. the truth is it's never been laid out constitutionally. i'm on record i believe for the vice president to have a significant role in the process, and others also believe there's a significant role to be played by the vice president when he opens and counts the electoral votes. >> okay. got your answer there. there's also been reporting about the attempt to seat fraudulent electors. is that something you ever worked on or would support, for example, in michigan? >> that's so funny. notelectors, ari. it's alternate electors. there's a process for ee lengths to be challenged. if those challenges are successful, you need an alternate slate of electors like in 1960 when the hawaii slate was challenged. it was not challenged successfully, but it was challenged. the same thing happened in 1876 as you know. >> we have a screen from reporters in michigan they received a call from a lawyer about that. the co-chair of the republican party is all speaking about that. take a listen. >> we fought to seat the electors. >> did you make any call like that? >> i actually couldn't hear that. >> i could read it to you. hold on. this is, quote, we fought to seat the electors. the trump campaign asked us to do that. did you ever make coulds like that regarding what you're calling these alternate electors? >> we was quoted in "the washington post" in the last 24 hours, yes, i was part of the process to make sure there were alternate electors so that we hoped the seattle of the challengers would be heard. >> so your view, just for the record here is that you could as a lawyer to the trump campaign seat these ee lengths in states where the process, the state results as overseen by the independent courts as approved by the supreme court found that biden won and you would put in -- hold on, let me finish the question and you can go ahead. you would support putting in these alternate or others call them fraudulent electors. you support that. you don't see that as being against the law, boris? >> it's actually not against the law. according to the law. you keep referring to the supreme court. they only ruled on technical cattles. many scholars including myself believe they should have taken the pennsylvania/texas case on the original jurisdiction because it was fully within their pow doerr so, but the supreme court never actually ruled on the merits or the overwhelming fraud that happened in 20. >> as you know, the cases were so weak, they never reached the merits, not like "bush v. gore" where they had the full case. they had court-appointed justices. >> it was a different makeup of the court. justice clarence thomas disagreed. it's the full truth that the supreme court never ruled the merits, and more and more information is coming out every day out of arizona, georgia, pennsylvania, wisconsin. >> yeah, there's information coming out. let me ask you like this as well. i understand that you have the right to advocate for your believes and your client. is that's why you're here. when you say alternate electors, that's your view of it. of course, you also understand there are open probes including in georgia that prosecutors mike look at differently. you understand if you were aiding and abetting in fraudulent elections or voter fraud, that not only is that potentially against the law, but you would lose the lawyer client privilege for your client in the trump campaign. >> first of all, ari, i don't think you're the one who's going to be determining or the audience whether there was any perpetration of fraud. i will tell you perpetration of fraud was absolutely done and it was done by the democrats, the left, marc elias, and others, and that perpetration was on the american people. that's why it's shown over 50% of the americans believe there was fraud in the 2020 election. it was substantial, 47-41. the fraud changed results in the 20 election. so, ari, everything is that was done was done legally by the trump legal team according to the rules and under the leadership of rudy giuliani. we fought for the truth, and the truth is that there was overwhelming fraud in the 2020 election, and i'm doing everything possible within all the rules, laws, and regulation to make sure that the truth comes out. >> part of what you said is false, but we're going to move forward. i mentioned the reporting about this proposed draft order that may have come from a trump lawyer in the transit documents according to the supreme court law, 8 to 1 this week ha says there was an idea of appointing a special counsel to have the military seize ballots. were you aware of the plan at this time? >> absolutely not. i didn't hear about it today. i would caution against reporting on any drafts that nobody knows where it came from. that's about as good as a paper napkin. >> does it sound legal to you to have the military get involved? >> i'm not going to opine on a piece of paper that no one knows who has read. >> okay. when you look at what peter navarro said, would you describe yourself as basically unbored with that plan, what he calls the sweep of that plan? >> people can give different names for things. i've laid out exactly what we worked on. what we worked on was to, a, prove the overwhelming fraud which i believe we went a long way in doing. we had limited amount of time. more information has come out since. and, b, to make sure there were legal challenges to those electoral votes. those challenges did happen. unfortunately the events that occurred disturbing those challenges. that's what took place, and i'm absolutely comfortable with it. >> finally, how soon should we expect to see you testify before the house committee? >> ari, we'll see what happens. if you invite me back, you i'm see me back on the program. >> i'm glad we got to talk to you first. we turn to dustin stockton who is accompanied by his lawyer josh nash. dustin, thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me and exposing your audience to different viewpoints. >> absolutely. you have worked in and around conservative politics and supporting trump for some time, but you had, according to what i understand, a different vision or plan for the january 6th rally. what was it? >> well, so, in conjunction with what we heard from peter and boris, there was a frustration that we hadn't had the opportunity to present the evidence that we thought we had of different voter fraud schemes that had been kind of -- or theorys that had been pitched around. we kind of expected that day to be the case in conjunction with what's been called the green bay sweep at this point. the ellipse rally was supposed to be an opening argument if you will. we were supposed to present hard evidence that was kind of the hook. and then inside the capitol when the split happened, tell green bay sweep started and the objections started, there was supposed to be more evidence presented at ooech one of those objections when the house and senate split. so to back peter's account, the violent disruption at the capitol was extremely frustrating for us because we felt like it prevented us from being able to present our case to the world with all the eyes upon us. >> when were you first made aware of the so-called sweep? >> i never heard it referenced to the sweep, but as we were doing the march for trump bus tour, we were in communication and sending people that we had met along the way who had signed different affidavits to different members of congress to be able to have the opportunity to have that -- >> right. interesting, again, as we go through the facts, as i mentioned, the committee also spoke with you in this investigation, that you did see those as linked. mr. navarro in fairness talks about the idea it was his goal do that, what he calls in the lines or non-violent. then you have, of course, the storming of the capitol. do you think president trump bears responsibility for that storming? >> i do think he bears some responsibility. from an organizer's standpoint, we had done several d.c. rallies after the election. we knew what kind of logistics it took to move a crowd of that size from one place to another. we had led people to go from freedom plaza to the supreme court, which is about the same distance. it required a huge logistical effort, medics, stopping stations, marshals, close of streets, cooperation with a dozen different government agencies. none of that was in place for the march to the capitol. if they had wanted do that, we would have been happy ha to d that. we had the templates do. that none of that was in place, so i do think it was wildly irresponsible to send people down to the capitol that way. >> right. which is as we show even tonight what the president did. would you ever vote for him again? >> i don't think i could -- i would find it very, very difficult to support donald trump, especially -- i mean, you look at -- since i've had an opportunity to go back and look back and really reflect upon a lot of what i call warning signs that i excused or overlooked, i certainly would caution anyone against going to work for a trump campaign. i just find the whole thing to be frustrating and sad at this point. i'll definitely be looking to support somebody else in the republican primaries. >> when did you first hear anything about the oath keepers being involved on january 6th, and was that a bad idea? >> yeah, so there was an ongoing -- there was a split within the organizer group. the group that had control women for america first who i was working in conjunction with, we used real quality professional security, guys who do big crowd sizes. they're licensed. they're insured. they're serious people. there were other people who were advocating for kind of the amateur security, which included -- >> bad idea, the oath keepers? >> terrible idea. i've likened it to the hellos angels ending the summer of love in '69 as that bad of an idea. >> and so let me ask you, dustin, because i appreciate you like all the guests coming on, and you have this primary experience and people can listen to it, but you did previously about half a year ago say online, quote, i encourage people to attend an oath keepers meeting, get involved in a research group. some of the way you sounded, this was beforehand when you were talking about people's possibly being well-armed, arming themselves. this was a different rally, but one of the similar ones you organized. take a look. >> a well-armed and self-reliant populous who take personal responsibility can never be oppressed and will never be ruled. >> i lost all my guns in a tragic boating accident, but i have a feeling you guys have me covered. >> that was just weeks before all this went down do. you stand by that? >> ari, i'm going to -- >> i want dustin to answer the question and -- >> but i just want to say -- i just want to say, there are communications that we have turned over to the committee that would cast dustin stockton, my client, in an overwhelmingly positive light if you were -- ari, what you would see is a narrative. >> i would love to have dustin respond and you go second. >> what you're playing is constitutionally protected speech, but go ahead, dustin. >> thank you, josh. i do stand by -- i do believe, i still believe in the second amendment. i still believe in self-reliance and personal responsibility. i believe -- and to your question about recently fending people going to oath keepers or non--research group, all of these groups are not created equal, and i think that continuing get together politically and organized is important, and i really recent the -- i was going to use a bad word -- the idiots who have tarnished so many good groups with their violence on january 6th. >> ari, if dustin stockton had his way, and this is based on all the communications and correspondence that the committee is in possession of t violence that took place on january 6th would never have taken place. there are communications that substantiate that, where he expresses his concerns in the days and weeks leading up to the 6th. >> i think that part -- i think a fair viewer could hear that because i think dustin spoke to that and we discussed it fairly, and people may have strong disagreements here. of course, the oath coopers have their leader indicted for sedition conspiracy. >> deservedly so. >> you know, does stin, if you're standing by people going to those meetings, that's where you stand. i want to play one more piece of sound. >> ari, can i say one thing? >> go ahead. >> i think it's an important distinction, which is the oath keepers' national leadership is not representative of every group, which often includes the local sheriff and senior members of law enforcement who do things like first aid trainings, and so i don't want to sound like i'm defending the people who did sedition and were violent in any way, but i also don't want to have a chilling effect on people getting together in their communities and working on things like self-reliance and being and the second amendment. >> i appreciate you're here to speak for yourself. the final point, something else you said, this was on the eve of january 6th, we just heard boris epshteyn claim falsely that donald trump won when he didn't. now, you didn't say that, but here is what you did say on that eve of january 6th. take a listen. >> obviously we know what's going to happen at the capitol and that we need these legislators to do the right thing. we need them to look at the evidence that this election was stolen and then do the right thing because if our votes don't count, nothing counts. >> given what's happened, dustin, is this the time to say the election was not stolen? >> yeah, i mean, i've had a lot of time to reflect. i've sought out experts. i've really looked at guys with open-source election policy, which is bipartisan, who have been doing this for a long time. i think we need to restore confidence in the election system. i think there were plenty of things, doubts cast that were illegitimate that have caused all kinds of problems and seeded that doubt, and i hope we can work to come to a bipartisan solution. what i said there about having our votes count is really important. it is our expression of any kind of dissatisfaction of the system. as long as we have confidence to change the vote, we can stop from marginalizing. >> just to conclude, you clund president biden is the lawful winner? >> i do believe under the circumstances that he is the lawful winner. i accept him -- >> ari, he does believe that. the only thing he was involved in in that same clip that you played were emails where he was expressing disgust and concern to amy kremer about the fact that these rogue architects were given a platform to mar frch the ellipse to storm the capitol. >> i will say this and it applies to all of our guests tonight. we appreciate going to the source and talking it out. these are important issues. i want to thank you both for joining us. we have to take a break here. we have joyce vance coming up right after this. here we have joyce vance coming up of better breathing. fasenra is a different kind of asthma medication. it's not a steroid or inhaler. fasenra is an add-on treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. it's one maintenance dose every 8 weeks. it helps prevent asthma attacks, improve breathing, and lower use of oral steroids. nearly 7 out of 10 adults with asthma may have elevated eosinophils. fasenra is designed to target and remove them. fasenra is not a rescue medication or for other eosinophilic conditions. fasenra may cause allergic reactions. get help right away if you have swelling of your face, mouth, and tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection or your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. this is the sound of fasenra. ask your doctor about fasenra. i'm gonna earn 3% on dining including takeout with chase freedom unlimited. that's a lot of cash back. are you gonna stop me? 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>> well, i'm reminded of that great line from the movie "my cousin vinnie" where a great american lawyer listens to an argument made by a lawyer and turns to him and says everything that guy said is b.s. i think that is what we heard hear. we heard an effort to justify the unjustifiable and what i heard from these two is this notion that the big lie was the truth, that there was fraud in the 2020 election, and that everything that they did was legitimate because of that. and of course, we know that is not true. every court that considered the big lie found it to be just that, a big lie. there is no evidence that the 2020 election was tainted by fraud. that is the conclusion not only of the courts, not only of congress when it certified joe biden and republicans along with democrats said that they believed he was the winner of the election. that's also the conclusion of republicans who administered those elections in the state. so ari, great job of getting these guys to air future defenses and justification but i think "my cousin vinnie" characterizes when they had to say well. >> it's a great legal film. he tried to defend something that may actually run a foul of election law which would be the fraudulent seeding of use of electors to over ride lawful votes of the state. take a listen. did you ever make calls like that regarding what you're calling these alternate electors? >> i was quoting "the washington post" in the last 24 hours. i was part of the process to make sure there were alternate electors to make sure the challenges to the seated electors would be heard and successful part of the constitution and electoral count act. >> joyce, people may want to look away but that is telegraphing a strategy that could be use in a future contested race. your reaction? >> well, i think he's conceding here what he absolutely has to. the committee already has evidence so that they will know who made these phone calls, right? they're clearly getting evidence from folks in the states who are subjected to these phone calls. what he's relying on here is this notion that no court has ever interpreted the electoral count act and said you can't have an alternative slate of electors. folks in the white house were advised you can't do this and the vice president's role is ceremonial. he doesn't have the ability to overturn counts. his job is to accept the counts that the states have certified so nice try at coming up with the defense because there are certain facts that just can't be refuted. good luck with that. it doesn't work. i doesn't see this being a problem in future elections because congress will take steps to amend the electoral count so it's off the table completely or because everyone recognizes this as the ridiculous effort at denying the will of the american people that it is. >> well, and the ladder point i think stands that you made and may also affect how the courts shut these things down. the former, i think, viewers now could be harder hill to climb if you're asking this congress to get its act together but as you have given us a little anecdote that's important. you have to hear everything going on. joyce vance, thank you so much. >> thanks, ari. >> we'll be right back. thanks, thanks, >> we'll be right back coricidin provides powerful cold relief without raising your blood pressure be there for life's best moments with coricidin. now in sugar free liquid. on ancestry i discovered more about my great-great-grandfather baptiste caretto. ancestry threads all of the little facts together into a narrative so you get to feel like you're walking the same path they did. 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