go? and how to make a seditious conspiracy case by way of the last major attack at the capitol. >> in washington, d.c., ruthless fanatic violence erupted in the halls of congress. plus, as baltimore officials face perjury charges. >> is there a reason this guy hasn't been charged yet? and mark elias on a surprise court victory for democrats. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. today two of the people facing seditious conspiracy charges in connection with the attack at the capitol on january 6th appeared in court for the first time. 63-year-old edward vallejo answered questions from a judge remotely from an arizona jail and 56-year-old elmer stewart rhodes u appeared in plano, texas. they are among 11 members of the far-right extremeist group the oath keepers. they are facing the most serious charges we have seen the department of justice bring in the wake and related to the insurrection. as we are learning more about these defendants and their plans and actions leading up to the 6th, it's clear they were not hiding their intentions. just days after the 2020 election, rhodes, the founder and leader of the oath keepers, told conspiracy theorist alex jones he was positioning his members around the capitol. >> we have men already stationed outside d.c. as a nuclear option and in case the attempt to remove the president illegally, we will stop it. i have good men on the ground already. we have been reconned there last week and we are sorting out where we are going to be staging and we will be inside d.c. also on the outside of d.c. armed, prepared to go in if the president calls -- it's president trump strengthened to do what we must do or we wind up in a bloody fight. we know that. the fight's coming >> that was not, it appears, bravado. rhodes and the oath keeper really did, apparently plot and prepare and showed up ready for violence on the 6th according to prosecutors. the doerj laid out their case in the indictment yesterday. quote, on december 22nd, 2020, in an interview with a regional oath keepers leader rhodes stated if president-elect biden assumed the presidency we will have to do a massively bloody resolution against them. that's what's going to have to happen. he wrote on the oath keepers' website, tens of thousands of patriot americans, veterans and nonveterans will be in washington, d.c., and we will have our mission critical gear stowed nearby just outside d.c. rhodes stated that he and others may have to take to arms in defense of our god-given liberty. in january, rhodes began buying weapons, according to the indictment, spending more than $15,000 on firearms and related equipment, much of it purchased on his way from texas to the washington, d.c., area. on january 6th at around 2:12 p.m. rhodes entered the restricted capitol grounds on the northeast side where he began directing other members of the oath keepers, some whom joined the mob, and broke into the capitol building. now, another key figure with the oath keepers that day when is also now charged by the federal government with seditious conspiracy is frequent tucker carlson guest thomas caldwell. he is a 67-year-old navy veteran known to other oath keepers as commander tom and the indictment details his role in amassing firearms on the outskirts of washington, d.c., to distribute them among quick reaction force in support of their not to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power. he identified the comfort inn in arlington, virginia, as the location they would use as a base of operations for january 6th. on the 2nd caldwell sent messages to contacts about seeking boats in support of the qrf. yes, he literally suggested sailing the weapons across the potomac. and after providing the qrf with firearms, ammunition and related items on the 6th caldwell marched to the capitol where he joined with others in storming past barricades and climbing stairs up to a balcony in the row stricted area. last night this guy who was according to the indictment amassing a cache of weapons to violently overthrow our democracy who is charged with seditious conspiracy for that, that guy joined tucker carlson on fox news and denied just about everything. >> tucker, i did not go into the capitol and they know to it. when they don't know what to charge you with, they charge you with conspiracy. and now seditious, i have to tell you i am outraged. they don't have any proof and i am innocent. >> they claim that you planned to bring, quote, heavy weapons by boat across the potomac river. were you planning -- what kind of heavy weapons do you think that refers to? were you planning to do that? >> i have no idea and no, i was not, tucker. look, i was a navy guy, okay? now, navy guys know about water, but it's like aircraft carriers, you know, blue water navy here. so this other stuff, i don't know anything about, didn't have any role in planning any of it. it's just more huy. >> now, unfortunately, for thomas caldwell the department of justice has evidence that indicates he is lying n a december court filing they revealed a message caldwell wrote after the 6th describing his actions. i grabbed up my american flag and said let's take the damn capitol so people started climbing the scaffolding outside. i said let's storm the place and hang the traitors. everybody thought that was a good idea, so we did. with all that bluster that caldwell describes, the mob chanting hang mike pence, walking through the halls calling for speaker nancy pelosi, you know, it's tempting to think of the oath keepers as sort of ridiculous dress-up operation. but remember these guys were quite sious. i they posted pictures online of the actual weapons they were actually bringing to temperature that would be at the ready on the 6th as the indictment says. they were preparing, it appears, for an armed barricade at the capitol to stop the peaceful transfer power. the other thing, you don't have play some extended complicated game of six degrees of separation to connect them to the former president. it's just one degree. now, we've talked a lot about the war room assembled the willard hotel on january 5th and 6th. we have photo of the people there, including michael flynn and roger stone, who you see here. roger stone got out of a prison sentence thanks to a commutation by his friend donald trump. then the president issued him a full pardon the end of december. it is a matter of public record that stone and floridian, who was pardoned by the president, along with the other trump allies at the willard hotel, were plotting with the same ultimate goal as the oath keepers. that's established. they all wanted to prevent the peaceful transfer of power and keep donald trump in office. and the willard hotel gang was not at arm's length from the oath keepers. the oath keepers were providing them with security. this is roger stone on the morning of january 6th surrounded by members of the oath keepers. the man on the left you see there with stone in the black vest and hat is one of the oath keeper members charged with seditious conspiracy. now, roger stone gave his own explanation for being around the oath keepers and he did it looking like a bad movie character sitting in the back of a limo. >> i had always used two off-duty d.c. police officers and a retired officer from prince george's county who provided professional security for me and my family during the many hearings i had prior to my trial, in which i was ordered by the court to be present, and during my trial itself. they were unavailable on #th and 6th. like many of the speakers on the events of those days, i was provided voluntary security by the oath keepers. no, i didn't know any of them on an intimate basis. my interactions with them were entirely professional, efficient. they were very polite and they helped protect me. >> which is to say an armed group of fanatics were allegedly plotting a violent storming of the capitol, providing security for one of the president's closest advisors providing their own attempt to forestall the peaceful transfer of power next to each other over the same few days in the same place with donald trump finally pressing the green go button when he told the crowd to march down the capitol. the oath keepers did, as trump said, we have video evidence, here they are, walking up the steps of the capitol in formation. we know from their perspective they were doing their -- this on donald trump's orders. this is another post from the very popular message board the donald on to january 5th. trump has given us marching orders and basically if you are east of the mississippi you can and should be there. they included specific instructions. den, walk into d.c., bring your plate carrier, flag, radio and charging kits, trauma kits. if it's time to arm up 180 for rifle, 150 for sidearm per person. they were doing what they thought donald trump wanted it this em to do. and as we learn more and more about this seditious conspiracy, it's harder to say that the president and his very closest allies and the oath keepers were running distipg plots that had nothing to do with each other. ben collins and betsy woodruff has been covering the january 6th investigation. they join me now. ben, let me start with you just because there is a few things here that are notable. one is the out in public nature of this in the extremist corners of the internet, alex jones' show where they are saying it's going to be bloody, we are going to stage a bloody, opposition to joe biden, not in a secret backchannel. >> yeah. i mean, reading this indictment this week, there was something wring ringing in the back of my head. i remembered reading that on the donald on january 5th. they were talking about stacks of six and 12. once you get to the capitol, find your stack. make sure you are talking through walkie-talkies, have earpiece,s leaving your ammo at home because we will come back in the middle of the night once we secure the capitol without the weapons we will come back and bring the weapons along from the qrfs. they brought this up the day before january 6th in a very public way. and it all comes up again in this indictment in these signal messages that the oath keepers were, you know, pushing in the days beforehand as well. so this cannot be a coincidence really. i mean, realistically here, how similar these plans were in public to the ones that were shared on signal between stewart rhodes and these other folks with the oath keepers. so, yeah, this was a very public plan and like you said, there were a lot of loose threads here that are finally kind of coming together, i think. >> yeah. one of them is roger stone and, betsy, obviously, he has been subpoenaed by the january 6th committee and i think -- i don't know if he has come in and taken the fifth or announced his intention to do so. stone really is the linchpin here in, you know, we know he is an associate. president, he is a friend of the president, talks to the president, and we know he is there in the willard hotel being guarded by oath keepers on the 5th and 6th. >> that's right. now, the closeness of stone's relationship with trump certainly is not on that day when it had been in the past. there is no question that trump knew stone and knew him well enough, close enough, long enough that he issued him a literal get out of jail free card towards the tail end of trump's presidency. stone has been adamant that he has no foreknowledge of violence that was planned and, as that video of him that you played shows, what he says is, these were people protecting him. he didn't know they were going to attack the capitol. the juxtaposition with the public commentary that oath keepers was making is really interesting. and i don't want to suggest that i am aware of conversations that didn't happen, because i'm not, but what we know, we just talked about, that the oath keepers weren't being secretive about what they were going to do that day and that raises questions that just make people in the security research space bang hair heads against the wall. why were journalists,ers, you know, private citizens reading this stuff on the donald site and not taking it seriously but the dhs and fbi weren't. i obtained dhs emails which showed analysts in dhs' intelligence office saw significant chatter in the 48 hours before the attack on the capitol and concluded it was hyperbole and chose not to share it. if anything, after january 6th, we've entered a post-hyperbole world. an era where everything that people says on the internet when it comes to violent attacks on the government is something that people in the security space are taking seriously. it's a fundamental way in the way that the american intelligence community looks at the internet and assesses threats. >> well, and that -- i mean, that is the kind of crux of this, ben, which is, i have to say, like, reading, like, seeing that post of the guns in virginia that someone posted, i don't know if it's -- i don't know if it's caldwell. obviously, i have no idea. he denies that he d that. seatst with weapons purchases. i think i didn't quite think these guys were serious. i'll be honest. i mean, i am surprised. but when you lay it out there and, clearly, a lot of people made that same mistake in very high-level positions. but that part of it seems crystal clear, whatever happens to the cases here, that they were deadly serious. >> yeah, that's the sort of motto of extremism researchers on the internet. everyone is trolling until they are not trolling any more. there were hints, by the way, before the 6th by law enforcement. they caught enrique entarrio with magazines he said he was going to sell when he got to d.c. he ran the proud boys at that point, was not there on the 6th. we knew they were the proud boys' magazines because they had a sticker on the magazines. straightforward stuff. peas people were not messing around. in the weeks beforehand you could tell. people in law enforcement and also congress people were reaching out and saying, this is not the same thing. like, we know when people are joking around, we know when people are making idle threats. these are plans to attack the capitol. there were maps of the subway system underneath the capitol posted on these things and people saying we need to cordon these off so they can't leave. that's the sort of stuff they were saying tht days beforehand. yeah, look, i don't know why they didn't take it seriously. jirch seemed to know but there was no chain of custody here. i don't know where it got lost. >> yeah. on the sort of question of what happened that day and the reaction to it, the acting secretary of defense christopher miller, who was installed quite, quite, quite late in the trump years, trump term, was the acting sec def when january 6th happened we got news today came before the january 6th committee and talked to them for quite a while, betsy. do you have any reporting on that. >> that's right. what we know is a top priority for the select committee is looking are why it took the national guard so long to deploy members of the d.c. national guard to the capitol building after that attack had started. one key document that the committee has received in recent months is a, you know, multidozen page report produced by a senior official in the d.c. national guard who alleges that the official story out of the pentagon regarding the amount of time that it took the national guard to get there is essentially an elaborate whitewashing and that the people pushing that story, generals, senior pentagon officials, are lying. i can guarantee you that that question, what actually happened in the hours after the attack started, why did it take so long? that's a key focus for this committee, something they are exploring. and it's just, when you take a step back and think about it, it boggles the mind. one of the most important questions in the whistleblower document and the being's official explanation of what happened is what exactly was discussed on a phone call at 2:30 p.m. on january 6th during the attack? at that point the head of d.c. capitol police had been begging basically everyone he could reach on his phone to send in the d.c. national guard. he was desperate. he wanted them to be there. he knew his people were overwhelmed and facing intense violence. then this phone call happened and we had right off the bat there were conflicting narratives, who said what? but one of the key moments as described in the whistleblower document is that there were generals on that call who said they didn't want to send in the national guard, they wanted a more detailed plan, they weren't ready to send them in because they were worried about optics. that's something that is such an important question because the delay in getting the guard in him men's consequences, horrific consequences. it's a major focus for the committee. >> all right. ben collins, betsy woodruff swan, thank you both. >> thank you. so, it's pretty rare to see a charge of seditious conspiracy. it's hard to tell if there will be any convictions. one of the last times that happened when it ended in a conviction was all the way back in 1954 when a violent group stormed the capitol. sound familiar? what happened the last time radicals made their way through the halls of congress, what it could tell us about the charges related to january 6th after this. s about the charges related to january 6th after this with chase security features, guidance and convenience, banking feels good. chase. make more of what's yours. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom for me and you ♪ (music) ♪ so i think to myself ♪ ♪ oh what a wonderful world ♪ before treating your chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month each lasting 4 hours or more, you're not the only one with questions about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start, with about 10 minutes of treatment once every 3 months. so, ask your doctor if botox® is right for you, and if a sample is available. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, 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walked the halls of congress looking for members and made their way into the house and senate chambers to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. in fact, actually babbitt was killed trying to propel herself into the house chambers before the members could be evacuated. in 1954, four members of the puerto rican nationalist party made this into the house chambers while members of the congress were inside firing as many as 30 rounds and the floor and injuring five representatives. it was the last time before january 6th that a violent group infiltrated the capitol and inflicted violence. >> in washington, d.c., ruthless fanatic violence erupted in the halls of congress. three men and a woman believed to be members. puerto rican nationalist gang that in november 1950 attempted the assassination of president truman opened fire from the visitor's gallery of the house of representatives. five congressmen were hit. ben f. jensen of iowa, clifford davis of tennessee, kenneth roberts of alabama, george fallon of maryland and albert bentley of michigan, who was seriously injured. observers noted the attack came as the conference opened in venezuela and it suggested the motive may have been to arouse adding united states feeling in latin america through an act of apparently blind violence carefully calculated to inflame america's nations with her neighbors. estimates of the numbers of shots fired range from 15 to 30 and each bullet hole found is a grim reminder to those present of the terrible surprise attack. the gang entered their guns, was held at police headquarters as a widespread search was launched for others who shared in the plot. to irving forest, rafael miranda, mrs. lolita lebron, andre cordero, the gun wielders having perpetrated a criminal outrage almost unique in america's history. wanton violence that shocked and stirred the nation and it only harmed the cause of the puerto rican people. >> wow. that was one of the most violent attacks at the capitol. 17 members of the puerto rican nationalist party stormed the capitol, were convicted of seditious conspiracy. that charge, seditious conspiracy, is the same one levied against 11 members of the far-right group the oath keepers, including stewart rhodes, for the role in the january 6th insurrection. the question is, will it stick? how high up in the conspiracy can prosecutors go? that's next. y can prosecutors go can prosecutors go that's next.g boi foyer! big boi marble. big boi quartz. word? realtor.com to each their home. narrator: on a faraway beach, thneration called "our greatest" saved the world from tyranny. in an office we know as "oval," a new-generation president faced down an imminent threat of nuclear war. on a bridge in selma, alabama, the preacher of his time marched us straight to passing voting rights for every american. at a gate in west berlin, a late-generation american president demanded an enemy superpower tear down a wall and liberate a continent. american 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was the first serious setback in the federal government's war against suspected white supremacist groups. 13 defendants were found not guilty of all charges, which included murder, robbery, and conspiracy to overthrow the government. one of those freed was louis beam, a former grand dragon of the texas kkk and a member of aryan nations in idaho. >> one, i want to praise your holy and precious name. two, i want to say to hell with the federal government. >> the not guilty verdict meant for six of the 13 white supremacists. they are serving long jail terms for other times, including the murders of a state trooper, a jewish radio talk show host and an armageddonered car robbery in the northwest. they said they had no pregretz for bringing the supremacists to trial. >> we weren't persecuting them them for what they said or do. >> 22 years later federal prosecutors in michigan brought charges, including seditious conspiracy charges, against members of a far-right group, a self-styled christian militia called the hutari. they were allegedly planning to kill a police officer and attack the funeral with bombs. >> all were members of a militia group saying on their website that they believed in preparing for an anti-christ and getting ready to defend themselves. videos they posted on the internet showed them in their own distinctive uniforms conducting paramilitary exercises. after monitoring the group for months, the fbi moved in believing they planned a practice run next month. a training mission was planned for april 24th. >> the charges, however, didn't stick. in 2012, a federal judge dismissed seditious conspiracy charges against five members of the hutaree group saying, the case is built on circumstantial evidence while this evidence can lead a rational fact finder to conclude something fishy was going on, doesn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt the defendants reached a concrete agreement to he oppose the united states government. they were defended by william sworn. also defended arab-american clients after 9/11 and he joins me tonight along with msnbc legal analyst dan goldman, former federal prosecutor, lead counsel for the first house impeachment inquiry in donald trump. let me start with you, since you have actually defended people accused of this crime to just lay out your understanding of how it works in the criminal code and why to your mind it has been a difficult thing for prosecutors in these two cases to make stick? >> boy, that's a lot in a very short time. but the fact of the matter is, is the government has to establish that this is not just talk, that the folks really were intending to do something violent to joer throw the government. as your introduction noted in the case of hutarree, they were planning for the anti-christ, for the apocalypse. they were not intending to carry something out immediately. they were confined to about 90 miles away from detroit. they never had the ability to carry out any attacks. or the desire to interfere with the operation of the united states government. >> yeah, i mean, it's so fascinating to think about because, i mean, obviously, they are sort of interesting constitutional questions here, you know, you could -- you can ideate on stuff, write a come up saying that the u.s. government should be overthrown, that's protected by the first amendment. the point so bill's point, dan, the difference in this case, with the oath keepers, is it's not like the fbi rolled them up in december 30th saying you guys are planning on doing a bunch of stuff. in this case the stuff was done in some cases on camera. >> yeah. absolutely. and i think the indictment lists numerous steps that they took that make this very clearly not an issue of puffery or planning in the future. if trying to overthrow the government or interfere with the peaceful transfer of power is not seditious conspiracy, the question is, what is? so i think unlike those recent cases or not so recent cases, i feel like we are in the tv way back machine tonight. >> right. >> but those other cases where it was much more attenuated, i should say, and much less clear as to what the actual official act was that they were trying to interfere. it was much broader issues of trying to overthrow the government. here the department of justice has, i think, very specifically alleged that the effort here was to prevent the counting of the votes and the certification under law that congress has to do. it is broader than that specific january 6th counting of the votes. so it may not run into the overly narrowly prescribed issues that occurred in some of these recent cases, but it's also not so broad as to be simple overthrow of the government. so i think the combination of laying out in detail efforts -- i mean, the fact that they bought ammunition and arms, et cetera, the efforts to -- that they went to, to prepare with a force, and then the allegations and the video that we've seen, and i think most importantly, detailed text messages within the group, because there are four cooperating witnesses who have likely given over their own text messages, which include most, or all, of these defendants, i would guess. >> yeah, bill, as someone who defended against exactly this charge in a very different context that you know, which i think is a sort of key difference here, i wonder what you make. federal government's case here or the applicability of this particular charge in this context. >> well, the statute is certainly broad enough to cover this kind of conduct because it's hinder and obstruct, or to oppose the activities of the united states government. clearly, if the government can establish what it claims it can, then you have evidence consistent with the clear language of the statute. >> yeah, and part of it, too, i mean, you know, in sort of thinking about this crime, right, i mean, plotting to overthrow -- there are crimes you could, you know, attempt to steal something from someone and fail or you could succeed. you can attempt to -- attempted homicide and fail or succeed. in the case of overthrowing the u.s. government, like, you're only going to be charging people who failed, i think, sort of definitionally. it's not like the crime could ever have come to fruition. so -- and that -- i mean, so the closest we've come to fruition, you know, certainly in my lifetime and, arguably, since the firing of the canons at fort sumpter of someone attempting to use force to stop the government, you know, over throw the u.s. government, is january 6th, dan. >> that's right. and there is no crime, as an example, of seditious. it is only seditious conspiracy for the reasons that you pointed out. so if anyone says, oh, when they don't have anything, as i think mr. caldwell did on fox last night, when they don't have anything, they charge conspiracy. first of all, those bologna generally, but particularly in this case when there is no crime of seditious for the reasons that you stated. but i do think, chris, there is an important message sent by this indictment that the department did not need to charge seditious conspiracy to charge all of these individuals with the same conduct. and they could have charged, as many of them were previously, with obstructing the lawful proceeding of counting the electoral votes in congress, which is a serious crime. but the department went further and i think that's notable because it really does stress and it underscores what you're saying, which is that this was one of the most catastrophic events in american history, and it needs to be treated as such. and i think that the strong statement of charging seditious conspiracy based on very detailed facts that i think fit the requirements of the statute, if they can be proven at trial, really does set the stage for, i think, future additional investigation. i know we talked a lot about roger stone. let's remember that roger stone is a convicted liar. i don't think anyone should take anything that he says at face value. but he has a potential go-between between the oath keepers and members of congress and the white house, and that may be a linchpin to get some conduct on the other side of things. that being said, i don't think that we will see members of congress or white house officials charged with seditious conspiracy unless we have some foreknowledge of the ause of weapons, et cetera. >> you better have quite a case there if you are going to do that. bill swor and goldman, thank you. >> thank you. next, why baltimore's top prosecutor is facing federal charges in the twice impeached former president is not. i'll try to explain after that. . up a sweat before coffee. and saying, “no thanks...” ...to a boston cream. jardiance is a once-daily pill that can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adult who also have known heart disease. so, it could help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. and jardiance lowers a1c. jardiance can cause serious side 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state's attorney for baltimore city, the prosecutor for baltimore, and was thought to abrising star in 2015, she gained national recognition after she charged six baltimore police officers in the aftermath of freddie gray's death. ultimately u ultimately, three officers were acquitted and she dropped remaining charges against the other three. all six were returned to the baltimore police department. now mosby has her own charges to worry with. >> the charges relate to the purchase of two vacation homes in florida in 2020. charging documents state mosby claimed to have experienced financial hardship due to the covid pandemic in order to withdraw from the city's deferred composition plan, even though documents show she was receiving her full salary. the indictment states she used that money towards the purchase of the homes and the indictment alleges she did not disclose her tax liabilities on the mortgage applications, even though irs placed a lien against her property. >> she denies the charges. the indictment suggests that investigators have paper trail here, which is, now, a hard thing to defend against. but i have to say when i saw the news and read the indictment and counts of what happened, i couldn't help but think about donald trump. i mean, marilyn mosby was indicted for a paper trial of lying on a mortgage application form for two vacation homes and lying about financial hardship to get an early withdraw from the pension fund, which i should be clear is wrong and, you know, if she did that illegally, apparently. a year and a half ago "the new york times" published an extremely pulitzer prize-winning investigation laying out donald trump's tax fraud over years based on firsthand documents they had. subsequently, there has been an investigation into donald trump by the manhattan district attorney's office that has obtained trump's financial records. that office heard testimony from trump's accountant and banker which led to charges against the trump organization and chief financial officer but not donald trump. the next thought was, what would a u.s. attorney, a federal prosecutor, do if they got their hands on the tape recording of a phone call from, say, a baltimore city councilmember to a local election official in their own party where the councilmember tried to bully and intimidate the election official and shake them down to fabricate a vote tally that had them winning re-electn when they had lost? i think they would probably be indicted pretty fast. of course, we have a recording of donald trump literally doing exactly that to the georgia secretary of state in the days before the election was certified. i just want to find 11,780 votes, one more than what he needed. again a fulton county district attorney investigation into that phone call and the activities around it in which he is caught on tape in what sure as heck sounds like soliciting election fraud. in fact, this week that d.a. said a decision on whether to bring charges do come as early as the first half of this year, okay? we also now have a set of seditious conspiracy charges leveled against a far-right group who stormed the capitol by force so that donald trump could stay in now power. there are a lot of investigations into donald trump's activities and into the activities of his allies or cohorts. there is a lot of evidence just on the face that he has done wrong things, reprehensible things, and maybe criminal things. again, not like definitely, but there is a lot of smoke there. i'll just note -- let me put this way. people get indicted for a lot less. they do. and i know you need to cross your t's before you come to the king, so to speak. but in the end, if the law cannot be brought to bear against someone as to powerful as donald trump, and whether that's because of political considerations or what do we do with the country or safety of those who would bring the charges, which is a real concern, if any of those stop the pursuit of the 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[sfx: radio being tuned] ome to allstate. ♪ [band plays] ♪ a place where everyone lives life well-protected. ♪♪ and even when things go a bit wrong, we've got your back. here, things work the way you wish they would. and better protection costs a whole lot less. you're in good hands with allstate. click or call for a lower auto rate today. amazing. jerry, you gotta to see this. seen it. trust me, after 15 walks... gets a little old. ugh go long! oh god, they'll never let us back in here. i'm james corden and i'm here to tell people that ww is getting even more personal. he new ww personalpoints program is particular to you. you can eat pizza. you can even eat this.. if you want to. and these... in the same, i mean not at the same time, i wouldn't do them at the same time. no two plans are the same. when can i start?! don't pay until spring! join today at ww.com hurry! offer ends january 17th! woman: i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months after just two doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪ nothing is everything. ♪ woman: talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. for a second time this week, the ohio state supreme court in a 4-3 vote has thrown out republican-drawn maps that would have progressively gerrymandered the state in that party's favor. state republicans had proposed a congressional map that would have given republicans up to a 12-3 advantage that donald trump won by just eight points in the 2020 presidential election. in the decision, the ohio supreme court justice noted when the dealer stacks the deck in advance, the house usually wins. that perhaps explains how a party that generally musters no more than 55% of the statewide popular vote is positioned to win 75% to 80% of the seats in the ohio congressional delegation. by any rational measure, the skewed result just does not add up, end quote. not only did state republicans try to skew the results, they did so by steam rolling the will of ohio's voters who just approved an amendment to the state's constitution to reform the state's redistricting process and stop exactly the kind of gerrymandering ohio republicans just tried to pull off on congressional maps and state legislative maps. both those sets of maps were immediately challenged by multiple lawsuits, including one from marc elias. i was able to talk with him before he won his case in ohio but right after he won his case against gerrymandered maps of the ohio legislature. >> it was a really important victory for the voters of ohio. what it means is that the supreme court of ohio is going to stand up for the right of voters. the voters passed a constitutional amendment that said that you cannot have partisan gerrymandering in redistricting. notwithstanding that, the republican-controlled redistricting process yielded a tremendously gerrymandered map in favor of republicans. and the 4-3 decision of the state supreme court said no way, that the people's will needs to be abided by and said that the commission needs to go back and take another shot at drawing fair maps. >> so that means that the proposed map, which i think would have added one republican seat to an already quite lopsided delegation in a state that's republican plus eight, that that now is gone, right? they have to start from scratch essentially and draw a new map? >> right. this was the state legislative maps. so, yes, they have to start over with using the proper criteria. we are still awaiting a decision on the congressional maps. >> gotcha, yeah, i'm sorry. there's the north carolina case. similarly this has proven to be a fruitful avenue of cases brought before the state supreme court as a matter of the state constitution and there's a case that i believe you're a party to in north carolina. what is that case? >> yeah. so very similar. my firm along with others are challenging the north carolina maps as a partisan gerrymander. now there, there is no -- there is no popular initiative that requires fair maps, but prior court decisions have said that partisan gerrymandering is out of bounds. the lower court found that there was partisan gerrymandering but wasn't sure that that's illegal under the north carolina state constitution. so that's now going to go up to that state's supreme court. if that state supreme court also finds that there is a prohibition against excessive partisan gerrymandering, we expect new maps to be ordered there as well. >> eric levitz wrote a peace for "new york" magazine and other people have said the gerrymandered picture as we go through the year looks better on balance that many, particularly in the democratic party or sort of progressives feared in terms of republicans using their power to maximize the number of seats they could extract purely through just new maps. do you agree with that characterization? >> yes and no. first of all, you need to realize that starting with the 2010 benchmark was already starting with a pretty skewed place to start. >> right. >> so saying that it's not much worse than 2010 is really not saying much, number one. number two, a lot of places they may not be adding republican seats, but what they're doing is they're doing away with swing districts. so they're taking a district that might have been a republican plus two district and making it a republican plus ten district. so they're essentially making competitive districts less competitive. but there's no question that we are, as democrats, we are fighting hard, we are fighting in court in a number of places and we're having some initial successes, both in the courtroom and also in organizing opposition to these terrible gerrymandered maps. >> one of the provisions in one of the two pieces of voting rights legislation that have been passed in the house and sitting in the senate awaiting some consideration probably imminently, we'll see what that looks like, would be a federal process of essentially independent commissions to deal with gerrymandering and redistricting. you've been very vocal about the need for these two pieces of voting rights legislation, i guess they have been combined into one now, and they still seem to be up against the manchin/sinema refusal to change rules on voting rights. the president talking to them, making a personal appeal. but it looks like we are where we were a year ago. is that your read on it as someone who is pretty plugged in? >> look, that may very well be the case. but the fact is we need every member of the senate to stand up and vote. it's all well and good for senators to give speeches and to announce their positions. but we are talking about the fundamental building blocks of democracy and whether or not we will have free and fair elections in 2022 and 2024. so, you know, we have had debate after debate after debate about the need to strengthen and protect democracy and it is time for every member of the house has already stood up and voted and it's time for the senators to do the same. >> all right, marc elias, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> that is "all in" for this week. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now with ayman mohyeldin in for rachel. >> thank you, chris. enjoy the rest of your night off. thanks to you at home for joining us. rachel does have the night off but we do have a very big show tonight, capping off what has been a pretty extraordinary week of news here in the united states. the last few days may very well be a part in our history as a nation that we look back ons