government. they were defended by william sworn. also defended arab-american clients after 9/11 and he joins me tonight along with msnbc legal analyst dan goldman, former federal prosecutor, lead counsel for the first house impeachment inquiry in donald trump. let me start with you, since you have actually defended people accused of this crime to just lay out your understanding of how it works in the criminal code and why to your mind it has been a difficult thing for prosecutors in these two cases to make stick? boy, that s a lot in a very short time. but the fact of the matter is, is the government has to establish that this is not just talk, that the folks really were intending to do something violent to joer throw the government.