the defendants conspired through a variety of manners and means, including organizing into teams that were prepared and willing to use force and to transport firearms and ammunition in to washington, d.c. recruiting members and affiliates to participate in the conspiracy, organizing trainings to teach and learn paramilitary combat tactics, bringing and contributing paramilitary gear, weapons, and supplies, including knives, batons, camouflage uniforms, technical vets with plates, eye protection and radio equipment to the capitol grounds, breaching and attempting to take control of the capitol grounds and building on january 6th, 2021, in an event to prevent, hinder, and delay the certification of the electoral college vote using force against law enforcement officers while inside the capitol on january 6th, 2021, continuing to plot after january 6th, 2021 to oppose, by force, the lawful transfer of presidential power and using website, social media, text messaging and encrypted messaging apps to communicate with coconspirators and others. the "new york times" adds this, quote, in an interview about the "new york times" this summer, mr. rhodes expressed frustration that several members of his group had, quote, gone off mission by entering the capitol on january 6th, quickly adding, quote, there were zero instructions from me or leadership to do so. but at least four oath keepers who were at the capitol that day and are cooperating with the government have sworn in court papers in a the group intended to breach the building, with the goal of obstructing the final certification of the electoral college vote. the times describes today's indictments as, quote a major step forward in the sprawling investigation of the capitol attack, and the casemarked the first time that prosecutors had filed charges of sedition. rhodes has also attracted the attention. out celeste committee investigating january 6th. the committee issued him a subpoena back in november. from the committee's letter to rhodes, quote, on election day, you declared that an honest election could only result in a win for donald trump. you called for oath keepers to operate as undercover poll watchers and encouraged your members to, quote, stock up on ammo, and prepare for a, quote, full-on war in the streets this. major escalation in the federal investigation of the january 6th insurrection is where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. katie benner is here, "new york times" justice department reporter and an msnbc contributor. also joining us, msnbc legal analyst daniel goldman, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york and house democrat's lead counsel during donald trump's first impeachment trial ask. jackie alemany is here, "washington post" capitol hill correspondent author of the early 202 newsletter. first to you, katie benner. and on the indictment itself, talk about its significant. >> sure, this is an extremely significant indictment. the most serious charges brought in the january 6th investigation and also shows what happens when the justice department does its work slowly and thoroughly. there was a lot of criticism levied over the justice department over the past year for not bringing this kind of charge. we know that through our reporting and through public statements made by former officials under the trump administration this sedition was on the table almost immediately after the attack. however, the case had to build over time. we know that last year there were people, oath keepers that we saw in earlier indictments who were being looked at for sedition charges. but this indictment is interesting because it includes stewart rhodes who was not somebody who was part of the earliest discussion. clearly, the department had worked vigorously over the last year in order to try to gather as much evidence as possible to bring the broadest charge possible that they could support in court. >> katie, it is interesting and certainly builds on reporting from you and your colleagues all week that's been building to this part of the indictment. i want to ask you about it. he's charged with among other things, hindering and delaying the certification of the electoral college vote, tying his outside to the coup plot put in writing by john eastman and conducted by donald trump inside with conspiring allies in the house republican ranks and in the u.s. senate. i wonder the significance in your view with charming him with hindering and delaying the certification of the electoral college vote. >> certainly by using that language, hindering and delaying the vote, you know, the prosecutors are saying that any activity that was meant to hinder or delay the vote is something they are going to take seriously and look at seriously. the other part of the indictment, though, to remember is that they always tie this back to the use of force. you know, they are very clear that force was a tool that was intended to be used always, that there were weapons set up all around the perimeter of washington, d.c. and that force was something that was part of the plan. so it's not just the intent to delay, but it is combined with force. that said, it is yet another signal following statements made by the attorney general merrick garland that, indeed, anything that could have stopped the certification is something they are going to take seriously and they are going to look -- they are not going to stop. they are going to look at what garland said, at the highest levels. >> do some incitement translation for us. using force against law enforcement officers while inside the capitol on january 6th, continuing to plot after january 6th, 2021, to oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power. and using website, social media, text messaging and encrypted mess j aing apps to communicate with coconspirators and others. what does that say to you? >> it says this was a far greater and wider -- more wide ranging conspiracy than just january 6th. i think all of us watching this have been focusing on what part of the investigation with the department of justice is focused narrowly on january 6th and what part of it is broader than that? you read the indictment and you could imagine a scenario where the department of justice only charged obstructing an official proceeding of the counting of the electoral votes. but they went further than that, and with a bold statement of filing charges of seditious conspiracy. and that likely is because of the post january 6th activity, where they continued to try to prevent the inauguration and the transfer of power later in january. so it says a couple of things, that -- you know, when you read the indictment. but the other thing that stands out, nicolle, as i am sure you noticed as well, four cooperating witnesses are involved in this. that's a tremendous number. that also takes a lot of time, to vet any cooperating witness. they don't just come in, give their statement, and then you turn around the next day and charge. you have to vet them. you have to corroborate them, weigh their statements against other cooperating witnesses and your other evidence. these days take a long time to development. what we see here in this indictment is a very thorough well developed well buttoned up indictment. >> dan goldman, is seditious conspiracy something that one person can be charged with the coconspirators are those four cooperating witnesses? or would you expect others to be charged with seditious conspiracy? >> a conspiracy requires two people. obviously, the cooperating witnesses could be one of -- two or more, i should say. any cooperating witness plus another defendant could make for a conspiracy. but what i think is so critical here is the preplanning and post planning. and this is a charge that many of us who legal experts and analysts who have been watching this have been wondering whether or not the department of justice would go this far. it is a very, very serious charge. it's effectively, you know, a more moderate version of treason. i mean, sedition is a serious charge. so it is absolutely on the table now. and this conspiracy could expand. the obvious and open question here is whether this conspiracy involved anyone from the white house, the trump campaign, all the way up to the president himself. we have no idea from this indictment. we have no idea whether others knew about all this preplanning. but it is something -- or efforts post january 6th. but that is the big open question that we are left with, is who else may be looped into this conspiracy? >> i want to tell our viewers one thing, and then i want to follow up on what dan goldman just said. we have some breaking news from the select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection. there are brand-new subpoenas for social media companies, alphabet, farmerly google, meta, formerly facebook. reddit and twitter have all been subpoenaed by the january 6th committee for records relating to the january 6th attack. bennie chairman chastised those companies for not cooperating more full low on a voluntary basis. he writes two key questions for the select committee are how the spread of misinformation and violent extremism contributed to the vie lieutenant attack on our democracy and what steps if any social media companies took to prevent violence. it is disappointing that after months of engage men we still do not have the documents and information necessary to answer those basic questions. the select committee is working to get answers for the american people and help ensure nothing like january 6th ever happens kben. we cannot allow our important work to be delayed any further. jackie, your reaction to these latest subpoenas? >> nicolle, i think this is a perfect segue from this tfrgsing conversation about the middle ring of activity that consisted of the insurrection itself. that includes people like oath keepers, the proud boys, the three percenters, all of these militia groups that did a lot of their organize asking training on line on these social media platforms. this has been i think an undercovered topic of the investigation because it doesn't involve some of the buzzier big names and former trump ally who is are recalcitrant witnesses but they are the equivalent of that. these tech companies were some of the first act has the committee took when they started this endeavor in july and they have yet to follow through on these requests. i am reading through these documents right now. what stands out to me is that these companies have not produced documents relating to decisions that would have had an impact on plan, coordinating and executing the january 6th attack. a lot of these platforms like u tube and metahad announced misinformation policies regarding content modmoderation. and the committee is asking for the documents about how that would have affected the planning and what these companies did to actually implement these new policies. we have had lawmakers say time and time again who are on the committee that this facet of the investigation is misinformation, and the coordination aspect that occurred on line is just as important as the rest of the information. >> jackie, i want to read about what they are looking for from facebook, which has renamed itself meta. platforms were formerly used to share message of hatred, violence and incitement to spread miss information, disinformation and conspiracy theories around the election and to coordinator attempt to coordinate the stop the steal movement. accounts of the team indicate facebook has documents that are critical to the select committee's investigation. some of this we know from the most credible narrator you could imagine, swb deep inside facebook, the whistle blower, frances haugen who testified that facebook did nothing up to the election up to the -- after the election up to the insurrection. s that there been any response by facebook about what is already in the public record from her? >> no, and frances haugen, if you remember, was actually also in talks to potentially be speaking with the select committee herself. >> right. >> to provide additional information. facebook has remained pretty mum on this since her initial public but i think as the committee wraps up their investigation and tries to pivot towards the public phase you are going to see them ramp up pressure on these tech companies that again can provide new information and insight into a lot of the planning and actual execution that went on surrounding the actual insurrection and breach of the capitol. >> i want to come back to this d.o.j. indictment. we will keep going in parallel tracks with all of your expertise. katie, let me read a little bit more from d.o.j.'s release today on the topic of advanced planning and on what looks like some indication that they have seen some of or are aware of increpted communications which as i understand it are among the hardest kinds of things to get your hands on. d.o.j. writes, the seditious conspiracy indictment alleges that following the november 3rd, 2020 plegs election, rhodes, the fountdser of oath keepers conspired with his co-defendants and others to oppose by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of presidential power by january 20th, 2021. beginning in late december, 2020, via encrypted and private communications applications, rhodes and various coconspirators coordinated and planned to travel to washington, d.c. on or around january 6th, 2021, the date of the certification of the electoral college vote the indictment alleges. rhodes and several coconspirators made plans to get weapons to the area. they made plans to travel to washington, d.c. the major metropolitan area in early 2021. so many of these dates were sign posts given by the expresident, katie benner. i mean, come to washington on the 6th. it is going to be wild. harassing and calling out mike pence to do the right thing on january 6th. how much are they scrutinizing call and response from the president himself and the reaction that the founder of the oath keepers had to him? >> this is a really important passage that you point out for a couple of reasons. one, it squarely laces the beginnings of the conspiracy that the justice department alleged to the period directly following the election. so even though the event happened on january 6th as we have pointed out before on this segment, this is something that began directly following the election, directly in response to the idea that trump might have lost. and the question is, how do we, members of this conspiracy, stop that loss, stop the transition of power from president trump to the incoming president, joe biden? that's a important set of context for us to understand that the justice department is looking at. they are looking at january 6th in the broader context of this was directly in response to trump's loss. second, you mentioned this is also an instant that involved a call and response aspect. yes, there were statements being made by the former president, members of congress, who by other figures who are in the former president's orbit where they say trump didn't lose, there was massive fraud, we need to do something about this. one of the transactiony things about call and response -- i think we saw this in the mueller investigation, if you read the report carefully, this is discussed at length. even though the former president might have said things publicly, if you are listening russia, find her e-mails. then we see an attack attempt happen almost concurrently with that statement. the call and response is not something the mueller team and federal prosecutors could say matched a statute and could be charged was crime. however it is something that happened incredibly publicly. so there is a lingering question. because it was happening publicly, going on in broad view that we all saw, but a it seemed so deliberate, how does the law respond to that, lou does the law account for that kind of behavior. that's an ongoing problem and debate amongst prosecutors, not just in this case but something people have been talking about since the mueller investigation. we will see in subsequent months ow the justice department treats that. what they are saying in this indictment, though, is it is not something they are ignoring. >> dan, katie put her finger on the driving force of the pressure cooker for merrick garland. that's the legal analysis. i think the political analysis is there is a perception that donald trump continues to get away with plainly illegal contact. six acts of obstruction of justice detailed in the mueller report. chuck rosenberg makes the point that conspiracies do not need to succeed to be unlawful. so it's not a defense for any of these folks -- we lost your voice, hopefully we can still hear your voice? i am here. >> he continues a conspiracy is an agreement to do something the law forbids. not all conspirators need to engage in all the acts if they agree on the objectives. pick up on katie's point about the call and response and tell me if you have a different view or a softening in sort of your exasperation that you expressed on this program that donald trump and his krenys are essentially not under any scrutiny. does this change any of your thought process here? >> i do think donald trump may be in the broader view. and now as we expand from january 6th, it is possible that they are starting to work up. the call and response issue that katie points out is one that is very hard for the lay person to understand. but in criminal law, you have to have mens rea, which is knowledge, and intent. and if donald trump is saying, as he did in the russia investigation that katie pointed out, if you are listening, some people would be very excited to see those emails, and then five hours later russia went and looked for those emails. now donald trump can't be charged criminally for that unless he knew that the russians were listening and that they would do that. and so the difficulty in a criminal case that you must prove that when donald trump says "come to washington, d.c. on january 6th it is going to be wild" that he knew that these militia groups would come and either try in some way to overthrow the election -- overturn the election or to interfere with the counting of the electoral votes. and that's the gap that's so hard to fill from a evidentiary standpoint. you and i can talk about it and say of course he knew, how could he not know? and in the impeachment trial, the second one, they did a very good job of setting up how donald trump's calls were very frequently responded to by his supporters. so you could make sort of a pattern and practice argument. but that's a very difficult argument to make. so this is the difficult part to prove. and that's why these cooperators, who have likely given the prosecutors their encrypted messages, which is how the prosecutors get them -- why getting cooperators is so important. because you need someone on the inside who had the conversations and who can say, yeah, we were coordinating with the white house. that's how you get beyond these militia groups. >> jackie, is there any sense that the four cooperators with d.o.j., who helped provide evidence, ostensibly, that led to today's seditious conspiracy charge against mr. rhodes have also shared information with the 1/6 committee? >> nicolle that's the question i just placed in to the committee. they had ready some of these same people, including stewart rhodes, to appear before the committee and provide documents and testimony about their involvement in some of the planning. the letters that were transmitted by thompson to rhodes and enrique tario for example, they cited specific examples of posts on parler and other social media platforms about, you know, how these extremists should be identified and go incould go needo ahead of the insurrection -- go incognito ahead of the insurrection in order to breach the capitol. but it is unclear whether they cooperated with the committee just yet. there is a fire wall between the committee and the department of jugs that the committee staff and investigators have been adhering closely to. but, again, this ring of activity is of interest. and it's likely in this 340-plus pool of interviews and conditions that the committee has already conducted that it has included some who are grouped into this extremists and militia type. >> so just to recap the twin breaking news stories we are talking about, the first seditious conspiracy charges from the justice department related to the january 6th insurrection, 11 people have been charged, including rhodes. also the breaking news from the house select committee investigating the insurrection that any social media company you can name off the top of your head has been subpoenaed to provide information regarding what went on on their platforms in terms of the planning and coordinating of the january 6th attack. no better people to talk to about those twin breaking stories than katie, dan, and jackie. thank you. when we come back, the conservative supreme court blocks president biden's covid vaccine mandate for businesses. a big blow to the white house's plans and hopes to control this surge in covid cases and hospitalizations. also, president biden today vowing to keep fighting for voting rights saying it is notover. that's even as one democratic senator seems to close the door on a path forward for legislation today. later in the program, kevin mccarthy's standoff with the january 6th select committee, mccarthy refusing to cooperate and practically daring them to subpoena him. we will talk with zoe lofgren about in a and more when "deadline: white house" continues. stay with us. a and more when "deadline: white house" continues. stay with us to stay 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[upbeat acoustic music throughout] [upbeat acoustic music throughout] you can keep your phone. and it's been nearly two years since the pandemic started. our students and teachers tried their best, but as a parent, i can tell you that nearly 18 months of remote learning was really hard. i'm so angry that instead of helping our kids get back in the classroom, the school board focused on renaming schools schools that weren't even open . please recall all three school board members now. for the sake of our kids, we can't wait one more day, never mind a whole year for a fresh start. every day in business brings something new. so get the flexibility of the new mobile service designed for your small business. introducing comcast business mobile. you get the most reliable network with nationwide 5g included. and you can get unlimited data for just $30 per line per month when you get four lines or mix and match data options. available now for comcast business internet customers with no line-activation fees or term contract required. see if you can save by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities. in a blow to efforts to fight the spread of covid, the supreme court this afternoon blocked the biden administration's rule requiring vaccine mandates for companies that employ more than 100 people. it was a 6-3 decision, the labor department estimated that the rule could have saved more than 6,500 lives and would have prevented 250,000 hospitalizations in the next six months. the three liberal justices dissented and wrote, quote w the legal basis the court usurps a decision that rightfully belongs to others. it undercuts the capacity of responsible federal officials acting well within the scope of their authority to protect american workers from grave danger. the court upheld the mandate that health care workers be vaccinated in a 5-4 decision. it applies to 20 million health care workers. joining our conversation, jason johnson of morgan state university, and an msnbc contributor. the former republican congressman david jolly is here, now the national chairman of the serve america movement as well as an msnbc contributor. and my friend and colleague, nbc news white house correspond end mike memoli. he made news of his own today. he has been following president biden for more than a dozen years and now today announced he is working on a book about the president. called the long run. it comes out in 2004. congratulations on that mike memoli. i have pushed the white house, i am sure you have better reporting than i do. there wasn't a plan b if the supreme court came to this conclusion today. what do they do next? >> yeah, the white house was clear throughout this process that they felt that this regulation was on firm legal ground, that they had the firm legal footing from federal law to do this, that the workplace standards they could set would be supported. the president released a statement a short time ago essentially saying there is nothing we can do here, this is up to the states and private businesses to take the lead here. jen psaki was asked about this as well during her briefing. she wouldn't answer whether the white house would take another swing at this in terms of rewriting some of the regulations in an attempt to see this. it is ironic when you think about it that on a day when democrats are debating changes to phil buster rules a supreme court that includes three justices that were confirmed after the senate republicans changed the phil buster threshold to allow runs to move these nominees through with just 50 votes is dealing the president another setback here on covid. we heard the president this morning reemphasizing his administration's efforts on other measures, including masking, including the effort to get testing out. but this continues to be on a very tough day for the white house, one of the biggest headaches that they are facing. >> such a smart point, jason johnson, we live in the america that mitch mcconnell's annihilation of the filibuster brought up. if we bring home covid from our work flies our children, that is a result of what mike memoli just described. and but here we are. democrats who control the senate really have no expectation that they can pass anything like this or frankly anything on their agenda because the filibuster. >> yeah, nicolle. and this is the problem. it's the court -- there are larger structural things that -- i kind of expected joe biden to know about. like he's the creature of washington, d.c. he should have known that with a 6-3 majority in the supreme court that any of his major policies are going to be blocked. he should have known joe manchin, that these are the kinds of things that can actually occur. then it goes to the leadership vacuum he seems to be. he is going to washington, d.c. to this meeting with senators saying we have got to push for voting writes, but kirsten sinema makes a meat loaf speech, i would do anything for voting rights but i won't do that. people don't respect him enough to at least listen to what he has to say about policies that are necessary to both support him and keep the agenda moving in the white house. >> the opposition is just the right and the left. even within the democratic caucus manchin and sinema are polarized in their views of the filibuster that it makes governing with their tiny majority nearly impossible. the white house acknowledged that they can't make anybody vote with the president. i want to come back to the substance of what the supreme court did today. the data speaks for itself that this works, it saves lives. i think some liberal justices made the points that right now there are 1 million case as day. the need for this is greater than it was first announced by president biden. united's ceo said 4% of the work force tested positive for covid but no deaths among the vaccinated. american airlines, workers tested covid, but vaccinated had neither died nor been hospitalized. before the vaccine mandates were put in place more than one employee a week died from covid. one company was losing one person that worked there a week. they put in the vaccine mandate and nobody has died. where are we in this sort of right-wing indifference to death and loss of life and disease from a pandemic but unprecedented historic zeal for anti-abortion policies? what are we to read about this supreme court? >> well, i think it depends on how you approach the issue. the term public health is used a lot, but maybe not always understood. where does the interest and right to protect one's health start and end in a pandemic? is it a public matter? is it a matter for the federal government? does it sit with private business owners? or does it sit with the individual to make a decision on vaccination or not? and that's what the court is wrestling with. i would say what we learned today and what i think we have leshed from the last year is that the war on containing covid in the united states from a public health perspective has been lost. that's gone. and whether it is because of right-wing culture wars and right-ring conspiracy theories sha have fought back against any type of science or any type of vaccination mandates or recommendations or requirements or is it because of a court who says no we are not going to let the federal government engage this this type of public health policy. we have lost the public containment war. i think joe biden has to find the political response? does he continue to fight in the lane he has been fighting or does he address the nation and say we have lost the containment war but i am going to tell you we have the tools to protect you and your family. we will make them accessible and we hope you will make the right decision. and should we see a dangerous variant like delta or omicron other another one, then we might try to elevate the role of the federal government. but as of now, protecting you and your family lies solely on you and your family. >> an unbelievable state of affairs. jason, david and mike are sticking around. when we come back, another potential challenge for administration, as we have been discussing, on voting rights. there are still signs of hope, though, on capitol hill, after the president's visit. we will tell what you they are next. we will tell what you they are next (music) ♪ so i think to myself ♪ ♪ oh what a wonderful world ♪ first psoriasis, then psoriatic arthritis. even walking was tough. i had to do something. i started cosentyx®. cosentyx can help you move, look, and feel better... by treating the multiple symptoms of psoriatic arthritis. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting...get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections some serious... and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms... or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms... develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. watch me. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. hey lily, i need a new wireless plan for my business, but all my employees need something different. oh, we can help with that. okay, imagine this. your mover, rob, he's on the scene and needs a plan with a mobile hotspot. we cut to downtown, your sales rep lisa has to send some files, like asap! so basically i can pick the right plan for each employee. yeah i should've just led with that. with at&t business. you can pick the best plan for each employee and get the best deals on every smart phone. you can pick the best plan for each employee ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ with clean, fresh ingredients, panera's new chicken sausage and pepperoni flatbread is a mouthwatering explosion of yes. craft? yes! heartiness? yes! living life to the flavor-fullest? heck yes. panera. live your yes. now $1 delivery. why has the administration not been able to get senate democrats on board? >> we are not giving up. >> the question is why has it taken this long? >> but you are acting as though it is over. it's not over. >> so it is going to happen by monday? >> i am saying it is not over. and we don't give up. we don't give up and we will not give up. >> we will not give up. that was the vice president with our colleague craig melvin vowing to keep pushing for federal voting rights legislation. that's despite a lack of support for changing the filibuster which is the only way to pass federal voting rights legislation. earlier today one of the main holdouts, senator kyrsten sinema took to the senate floor and reiterated her volt for the 60-vote threshold, which means that given total republican opposition on a issue they once stoerted voting lights legislation will stall in the senate when it comes up for a vote. that took place just before president biden arrived on chill to speak to reporters on the hill, the president vowed to keep trying to get voting rights legislation passed. >> like every other major civil rights bill that came along, if we miss the first time, we can come back and try the second time. we missed this time. we missed this time. in the state legislative bodies continues to change the law not as to who can vote, but who gets to count the vote, count the vote. count the vote. it's about election subversion, not just whether or not people get to vote. who counts the vote. that's a disavowed. that's what makes this so different from anything else we have ever done. i don't know that we can get it done. i know witness thing, as long as i have a breath in me, as lock as i am in the white house, as long as i'm engaged at all i am going to be fighting to change the way these legislatures are moving. >> we are back with jason, david, and mike memoli. mike, it is this stick twist to the biden/harris story that while joe biden has been president and kamala harris has been our country's vice president the largest rollback in the shortest period of time has been carried out in terms of access to the polls and in terms of what the president is talking about there. i heard him target the pieces of the georgia bill and other pieces of legislation. do they think they have the time that the president is talking about? a few months ago white house officials said they think they would have still won georgia but they are not sure with warnock and ossoff would have won their elections. i mean, do they think they have time to do this next year or the year after, mike? >> well, nicolle, as you were so kind to plug my upcoming book about this president one of the reasons i wanted to write it is because having covered him for so long there is so much context, there is so much that i have observed from him over the last 15 years that i have been covering that i think has been missing from the discussion we are having on a day-to-day basis about what he is trying to do, what his administration is trying to do. that was why actually having covered his speech in atlanta just the other day and having watched this white house go full bore into a fight it appears likely they are going to lose on the rules change, it seems so out of character for this white house. i think it speaks to really two points. one the white house won't like to hear me say, but it seems to be true, it speaks to his weakened political standing, his approval rating. according to one poll that might be an outlier, in the low to mid 30s. more importantly, approval among black voters the base, the constituency that put him is only 56%. that's a big flashing red light. that's why jim clyburn who i spoke to yesterday says he has been pressing the white house saying he needs to follow through for his voters. and this is the number one issue to them. 51 weeks ago -- we are a week shy of a year of his inauguration day. but last year we marked one year since january 6th. and the president does believe there is a dividing line in this country between what happened before january 6th and what happened after. and i think there is a sense in this white house that trump and trumpism has not receded in a way that they feel that even if this is a losing fight this is a fight they need to be seen fighting and they need to put everyone on record. that's why the white house is signaling they are willing to go ahead with the rules debate this week even without the possibility of success because they want to have that debate. >> jason johnson, it didn't have to be this way. i listened to the defeatism from white house officials in mike memoli's reporting and the president was in a really really strong position going in, i think all the way up to august. i wonder if you have second doubts, if you sort of look back with a revisionist's eye toward whether this should have been the first thing they set out to do? >> well, nicolle, the first thing that the president should have actually set out to do is the thing that got everybody excited in 2020. this may be revisionist history, but this is talking to activists and organizers on the ground from michigan to wisconsin to minnesota, to georgia. it wasn't voting rights that have everybody marching in 2020. it was police brew tattle, police violence. one of the greatest failures of this administration is the way they gave up on the george floyd police reform acts. instead of saying hey, we couldn't pass itted if really, but the only way you can get the covid relief money is if you implement some of the george floyd reforms -- that was the problem he had initially. but now from a messaging standpoint, i doesn't doubt that the president and the vice president cares about this. but you don't have to go back to 60 years and bull connor to talk about how voting rights is an issue. there are over 1,000 people in georgia right now, a thousand, who are facing ten years in jail and $100,000 in fines for voter fraud, defended by raffensperger who was everybody was calling a hero for defying trump. i would love to go ask, do you have a problem with a 63-year-old women being thrown in jail for ten years because she voted after she didn't get an absentee ballot. >> mike memoli, congratulations on your book. you said it subtly and none shallantly, we don't always dig deep enough. this president has touched just about everything that we cover. you are sort of singular in your ability to give it all the history and context it deserves. thank you for being part of these conversations, and congrats on that book. jason and david are stiging around. senator lindsey graham injecting himself into the trump/mcconnell friend me feud, whatever you want to call it. we will fill you in next. nt to . we will fill you in next [struggling vehicle] think premium can't be capable? 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[sigh of relief.] slack. where the future works. trump and i, we have had a hell of a journey. i hate it being this way. i hate it. from my point of view, he's been a consequential president, but today, first thing you'll see. all i can say is, count me out. >> you believed that at the time, i got a bridge to sell you. that was lindsey graham on january 6th. it turns out his allegiance to trump never really waned at all as evidence by an appearance last night on sean hannity's show on fox news where he again bent, worshipped to the disgraced ex-president. this time, by saying that the 2024 nomination is his if he wants it and by throwing his leader, mitch mcconnell, under the bus, telling mcconnell, it's time to kiss and make up with an insurrectionist if you want to remain the leader. watch. >> elections are about the future. if you want to be a republican leader in the house or the senate, you have to have a working relationship with president donald trump. i'm not going to vote for anybody for leader of the senate as a republican unless they can prove to me that they can advocate an america first agenda and have a working relationship with president trump because if you can't do that, you will fail. >> what? david jolly, what is a working relationship with the deplatformed, under criminal investigation, loser even look like? what's that even mean? >> so, first of all, i think what it means is that speech we saw on january 6th by lindsey graham was a political speech for where he thought the politics were going, and when they didn't go that way, what we saw on fox news is lindsey graham coming back to being what he always is, which is a political animal. that's why he will always be the xo and not the c.o. but i think very importantly for mitch mcconnell, nicole, is lindsey graham is kind of your canary in the coal mine. if lindsey graham is saying, i may not be with mitch mcconnell, well, mitch mcconnell, that means you may not be the next majority leader because consider a united states senate with hertial walker and dr. oz and one of the crazies from ohio. the only thing mitch mcconnell has right now that allows him to keep power is the pipeline of money from k street to the capitol. if that starts to fracture, mitch mcconnell's done. >> what's so interesting, david jolly, and the reason we cover this version, this iteration of the republican party is because behind every disappointing democracy-indifferent republican is something worse. what do we do about that? >> well, look, you can't rely on today's republican party to elevate responsible voices that will protect our democracy. i mean, i realize that's kind of said casually now, and it just kind of rolled off my tongue, but that is where we are in today's republican party, and i think it's why you see a number of disaffected republicans who are saying, i don't know where to go. it is why, as i recently posted, the most important political coalition in the united states of america today, nicole, is the coalition to stop donald trump in 2020. that's it. it's not an ideological coalition. it's the coalition to stop donald trump, and if donald trump is our greatest threat, then that means this coalition becomes the most important coalition going into '22 and '24, and how we keep that coalition together, whether it is today, i don't know, but how we keep that coalition together is one of the great moments of consequence for our democracy. >> jason, how does that sit with you? >> here's the problem, though. we don't know if trump's going to be on the ballot. if trump is on the ballot on 2024, it's the easiest thing in the world for democrats because you can always run against the bad guy. but i think the bigger, more dangerous thing, i'm working hard to never say republican party again because it's not a party. they're the plo to hamas. they're a dimestore front for a terrorist movement. they didn't have a policy in 2020 except loyalty to trump. they just announced in "the new york times" today, i think i saw the article where they're asking their 2024 nominees to not engage in presidential debates. they're no longer a party. and so, nothing surprises me anymore. when it's essentially a personality cult, when there's no difference between supporting trump and being part of a britney supporter or the beyhive or something else like that, what do you expect them to do? everything is going to change every five minutes depending on the whims of the deplatformed guy who's blogging and hiding out in florida. >> i would like to say something to my democratic friends that relates to the previous debate. just remember, as you're going through these consternations within your caucus, particularly in the senate, remember who your enemy at the ballot is, and i hate to say enemy. your opponent. it's the gop. do not let the story be about a fractured democratic party. be a unified democratic party that allows room for those disaffected republicans and independents, not on ideological ground but because we face a parallel between authoritarianism and patriotism. be the party that is the patriotic tent for people to stop donald trump in 2020 and you'll win again in 2024. >> to be continued, i'm sure. thank you for spending time with us today. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. r of "deadline white house" starts after a white house" starts after a quick break.tely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. ♪ dry eye symptoms keep driving you crazy? 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i prefer you didn't. >> vo: my car is more than four wheels. it's my after-work decompression zone. so when my windshield broke... >> woman: what?! >> vo: ...i searched for someone who really knew my car. i found the experts at safelite autoglass. with their exclusive technology, they fixed my windshield... then recalibrated the camera attached to my glass so my safety systems still work. who knew that was a thing?! >> woman: safelite has service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ ♪♪ we know that leader mccarthy was pleading with the president to tell people to go home when police officers and others were being beaten here at the capitol. so, you know, i wish that he were a praif and honorable man. he's clearly trying to cover up what happened. he has an obligation to come forward, and we'll get to the truth. >> hi again, everyone, 5:00 in new york. that was the vice chair of the january 6th select committee, liz cheney, putting minority kevin mccarthy on notice, suggesting, among other things, that he is trying to cover something up by refusing to cooperate with the committee and warning that the truth will come out. mccarthy spurning the committee's request for information, saying that he will not meet with them. saying this. quote, now it wants to interview me about public statements that have been shared with the world and private conversations not remotely related to the violence that unfolded at the capitol. i have nothing else to add. as a representative and leader of the minority party, it is with neither regret nor satisfaction that i have concluded to not participate with this select committee's abuse of power that stains this institution today and will harm it going forward. let's go back to cheney's comment, though, that mccarthy may have something to hide. there was this little nugget buried at the bottom of the committee's letter to mccarthy, which appears to posit one theory about what they think mccarthy might be covering up. especially concerning a january 28th in-person meeting with the ex-president at mar-a-lago. it was days before trump's impeachment trial began. from the committee letter to mccarthy, quote, your public statements regarding january 6th have changed markedly since you met with trump. at that meeting or at any other time, did trump or his representatives discuss or suggest what you should say publicly during the impeachment trial if called as a witness or in any later investigation about your conversations with him on january 6th? questions that point to a potential committee focus on witness tampering. here's what the committee is talking about when they describe a massive about-face from mccarthy. it started january 13th of last year, one year ago today, when mccarthy took to the house floor to condemn donald trump's actions related to the insurrection. >> the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action by president trump. accept his share of responsibility. quell the brewing unrest. and ensure president-elect biden is able to successfully begin his term. >> what happened to that guy? we later learned that mccarthy had a contentious phone call with trump while the insurrection was unfolding which n which trump says to mccarthy this, well, kevin, i guess these people are more upset about the election than you are. but again, just two weeks after that pretty passionate floor speech, mccarthy stood cheek-to-cheek, shoulder-to-shoulder with the ex-president he had just condemned, and after that, his tune changed and stayed changed. he reportedly asked for congresswoman liz cheney to apologize for voting her conscience in the impeachment hearings to hold trump accountable just as mccarthy suggested everyone should do weeks earlier. that was just before his conference voted to strip liz cheney of her leadership role in retaliation for her vote, but the shift became even more dramatic around april. mccarthy actually started to come out in defense of trump's conduct. here he was with chris wallace back then. >> i was the first person to contact him when the riots was going on. he didn't see it. what he ended the call was saying, telling me, he'll put something out to make sure to stop this and that's what he did. he put a video out later. >> quite a lot later, and it was a pretty weak video, but i'm asking you specifically, did he say to you, i guess some people are more concerned about the election than you are? >> no, listen, my conversations with the president are my conversations with the president. i engaged in the idea of making sure we could stop what was going on inside the capitol at that moment in time. the president said he would help. >> what happened, exactly? what changed for kevin mccarthy from january 13th to april 25th? what made kevin mccarthy take a 180-degree flip in his views on a single thing that donald trump was doing on january 6th? what might it have to do with private conversations with the ex-president? that is where the committee appears to be turning its attention. asking questions. as the committee now mulls whether or not to serve a subpoena to the sitting house minority leader. in the last hour, the committee issued new subpoenas to four social media companies for records about how the spread of misinformation and disinformation and rise in extremism contributed to the attack on the capitol. that is where we begin this hour with something our favorite reporters and friends, but we start with congresswoman zoe lofgren of california. also joining us, former top state department official rick stengel and msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi, former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi. and the host of "the bureau" podcast. congresswoman, i want to start with the subpoenas. what are you looking for from facebook, which has a new name, reddit, twitter, and the other social media companies who subpoenaed this afternoon? >> well, all of them had a role in -- as platforms for allowing extremism and for allowing apparently plotters to help form up this january 6th riot. we have been seeking information about how their systems work, what they did to prevent it and have not really gotten the information we've asked for, so we finally decided we're just going to subpoena them and demand the information, and it's part of fully understanding what has happened leading up to the january 6th events. >> this is from the letter to meta, which i guess is the new name for facebook. meta is the largest social media company in the world, according to public reports, people use meta's platforms in the months and days before january 6th to share messages of hate, violence, and incitement, to spread misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories around the election and to coordinate or attempt to coordinate the stop the steal movement. recent public statements from former facebook employee and whistle-blower francis hogan and reports about documents she disclosed added to the public's understanding of facebook's research, structure, actions, success and failures. the select committee believes meta has information critical to its investigation. according to public accounts following the novemeam that had focused on risk to elections, including misinformation, and reduced the application of tools used to restrain the spread of violent content. how much is this period from november all the way to january 6th an increasing focus on the part of social media companies, on the part of the president and his inner circle? >> well, it's not just the social media companies, although we do need to understand the role that they played, and as you know, the committee is charged with proposing legislation that would make us safer in the future, and this is something that we certainly want to take a look at. we are looking very carefully at the plot to undo the election, not just the violence on january 6th itself, and so we're looking, you know, after the election, but there were certainly things we were looking at, even prior to the election, so we're being very we have interviewed hundreds of witnesses. we've got more than 50,000 documents and the depositions and interviews are ongoing. the committee is, you know, heavily engaged in this. i mean, it's just nonstop. so, yes, we're heavily looking auto all of this. >> liz cheney, mincing no words in her descriptions of kevin mccarthy, but he were brave, but he were honorable, but he's not. will you subpoena kevin mccarthy? >> we haven't made a decision on that yet. certainly, there's precedent for committees of the house to subpoena members of congress. most particularly the ethics committee has frequently done that. and the speech or debate clause does not protect members of congress. it says that a member shall not be held to answer at any other place. well, this is not another place. it's the house itself. we also have constitutionally the power to punish disorderly conduct, which i think would include refusing to be part of uncovering the truth about an insurrection and an attempt to basically overthrow the government. but as i said, we have not reached a conclusion on that. the one conclusion we do know is that we're going to get the truth. >> let me show you what's public facing, what we understand to be a very abrupt and public break with the reality as kevin mccarthy saw it between january 6th and january 13th. here he is in april with chris wallace. >> has the president ever reached out to you since that report came out to discuss what you and he talked about on the january 6th phone call, and did you say to him, i can't, because we're under oath? >> no. >> that never happened? >> it's never happened. >> and you would -- >> never even close. >> and if it did happen, you would agree that would be witness tampering? >> yeah, but never happened. never even came close. never had any conversation like that. >> congresswoman, do you believe him? >> well, it's at odds with what he said in the past. so, either he's disembling now or he was dissembling before, but i think i tend to believe the comments made closer to the event itself and reported by other members of congress who overheard him or who he related information to, so i guess i have a little skepticism here. >> i know that the committee work is happening on a parallel track with folks in the media sometimes conflate different investigative threads with the doj investigation, but on the proud boys founder being indicted with seditious conspiracy, along with 11 others, and as evidenced in -- oath keepers. as evidence of -- in the indictment of the four cooperating witnesses. we started to wonder, and you and your colleagues on the committee have talked about examining the president's conduct and comments. if you have gone back to that call for the proud boys, another extremist group, to stand by back and stand by and if your examination of what jamie raskin sort of calls the second ring outside of the rioters who were the extremist groups and organizers, if you're looking at contact and sort of call and answer between donald trump with the leaders of the extremist groups came to washington to do on january 6th. >> we're examining everything. one of the things that we made a pledge to each other about is not to dribble out little pieces of information until we have the entire picture to give to the american public. obviously, we're a legislative body. we don't have the power to criminally indict anyone. that's for the department of justice or for state law enforcement in the case of violation of state law. but we are going to get all of the facts. it's going to be made known to the american people if there are things that law enforcement agencies don't have, they will also have it, along with the american people. we're not collaborating with doj. that would be improper. but i strongly suspect that there is some overlap on our inquiries. >> congresswoman, i hear what you're saying. there's -- you can't talk about it yet. i know kayleigh mcenany participated in her deposition remotely yesterday. and i know one comment you've made on this program is that we focus a whole lot on the folks who have not come to talk to you, but a lot of your time is spent on the folks who do. how would you characterize cooperation from the folks who have been subpoenaed and invited to testify and speak with members of the committee? >> well, as you know, the committee rules prohibit us from discussing interviews or depositions without a vote of the committee to release the information. so, i'll just say, generally, these interviews go on an exceedingly long time. they are led by the staff attorneys who are primarily former u.s. attorneys and know how to do questioning. the members of the committee participate remotely and are able to ask questions if there's anything the u.s. -- that the investigators overlook, which is rare. i would say, you know, some witnesses don't remember everything, and sometimes i have an amount of skepticism whether you would or would not remember as a private citizen going into the white house. i think most people would remember that. but they are detailed and we're putting the pieces together because we're getting different story lines, different pieces of information from individuals who were associated with similar events. it's like a gigantic puzzle, and we're putting it together. >> the strategy of asking former vice president pence and minority leader mccarthy to come in and meet voluntarily and sean hannity to come in and meet voluntarily, can you describe that? is it a -- is it an entreaty to see if any of those individuals want to avoid a subpoena? is it to test the water for the appetite to go ahead and have a subpoena fight? what is the strategy of those voluntary invitations? >> well, honestly, mr. hannity had texts that we have, and they lead to certain conclusions or questions. i mean, we have questions about them. refusing to testify, it's not clear what basis he would have for that. you know, we want to be careful about subpoenaing the press, except that the questions we have for mr. hannity really have nothing to do with him as a member of the press. they really have to do with him as a political operative and his exchange with political people as part of a political team. not as a reporter. so, we've got to weigh that, and it's important that the first amendment protection of the press is always very much in our minds. when it comes to the vice president, subpoenaing the former vice president is, you know, it's a big deal. you want to consider that carefully. but certainly, the vice president did the right thing on the 6th of january. he did his duty. and it's not unreasonable to think that he would want to tell the truth about everything that happened leading up to it. so, we're still hopeful that that might occur. we're getting information, as i say, from a variety of sources, and when you think this is just about the vice president, but all of these elected officials and political actors were surrounded by other people who saw things, overheard things, and can report to us about what they saw and heard. so, we're filling in the blanks, but there are some important pieces of testimony we could get from the principals themselves, and we're hoping that a sense of patriotism will lead some of them to come forward and tell the truth, and i guess i just say, if they're not ashamed of what they did, why wouldn't they come forward and tell us what they did? >> do you think donald trump has asked kevin mccarthy and mike pence not to testify before your committee? >> i have no idea. there's no way to know -- for me to know that. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren, thank you so much for starting us off this hour and taking our questions. we're grateful to you. >> thank you very much. we're going to fit in a very short break before we turn to rick stengel and frank figliuzzi on all this. and the other big breaking story this afternoon, that seditious conspiracy charge against the founder of the oath keepers, 11 members in total for organizing a plot to storm the capitol and try to overturn the 2020 election results. plus, an alarming new development in the republicans' slow-moving power grab. far-right candidates for secretary of state in key battleground states, all loyal to the disgraced ex-president and his lies, have formed an alliance to spread their conspiracy theories and devise new ways to potentially subvert the will of the voters. and later in the program, as dire as the covid case counts look these days, there are some signs, some glimmers, if you will, of hope that suggest that in some parts of the country, the omicron surge may be cresting. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. after a quick break. after a quick break. stay with us entrust your heart to entresto. it's the number one heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. entresto was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. heart failure can change the structure of your heart, so it may not work as well. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. and with a healthier heart, there's no telling where life may take you. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto for heart failure. entrust your heart to entresto. you could spend half an hour preparing for the half hour status meeting. orrr... you could cancel the meeting and share updates in slack instead. it's where your whole team is in one place so everyone can stay up to date. slack. where the future works. thanks for bringing me with you guys today, mr. and mrs. lopez. not a problem, josh. hey, you two. check out all these camera views in my silverado i can see in front of me, behind me, on either side of me. and it has this cam, so i can see if there's any funny business going on. you see any funny business going on? no, sir. let's have a great day! the chevy silverado offers eight cameras with up to 15 different views. find new views. find new roads. chevrolet. a must in your medicine cabinet! less sick days! cold coming on? zicam is the #1 cold shortening brand! highly recommend it! zifans love zicam's unique zinc formula. it shortens colds! zicam. zinc that cold! we continue to follow the other big headline of the day surrounding the investigation into the insurrection, the highest-profile charge in connection with the january 6th riot. today, doj charged stewart rhodes. he's the founder and leader of the far-right wing group, oath keepers, with seditious conspiracy for his role on january 6th. rhodes, who was at the capitol but said he did not enter the building, was arrested today by fbi agents and is the first person in the sprawling investigation into the riot to be charged with sedition. we're back with rick stengel and frank figliuzzi. frank, what's the significance of this in your view? >> it's hard to underemphasize how significant this is. the last time that i believe seditious conspiracy was successfully charged by the united states was, like, 1995, sheik omar for trying to blow up the united nations and the new york fbi headquarters, and nine of his cohorts. so, think about that. let that soak in. we charged seditious conspiracy against international terrorists trying to blow us up, and now we're doing it against our own, and even more sobering for me, nicole, is the fact that who's got charged here? oath keepers. who are they, primarily? u.s. military, active duty and retired and law enforcement, active duty and retired. stewart rhodes is a former u.s. army paratrooper. this is where we are in the united states. so, any excitement or exuberance about how this pushes the investigation forward and how it clearly signals a commitment by the fbi and doj to take this very seriously, it's tempered by the fact that i'm soaking in the fact that these are vets. these are cops. this isn't right. and oath keepers just exist on kind of a -- all a false house of cards of conspiracies that the u.s. government's out to get us, so we're getting places. i've got lots of questions. we've seen reports before that hint at communications between the oath keepers and the three percenters and the proud boys. are we looking at a cross-terrorism conspiracy in imagine al qaeda, isis, and hezbollah all working together to do the same thing. is that what we're looking at here? time will tell. >> i don't often hear the alarm that i hear from you, frank, and i just need you to say more, and let me just add this into the alarm. the oath keepers, i believe, were charged with protecting roger stone around the events on january 6th. what questions do you have about that? >> so, just like i have questions about whether there's cross communications and coordination between these, what i will call, domestic terrorism organizations, i have larger questions about who did they coordinate with above those groups? roger stone. was he -- you know, roger stone plays into the wikileaks hacking, russia connection, right? remember, trump takes a phone call in the limo to laguardia and tells, is it gaetz, hey, there's going to be another leak coming out of wikileaks against the dnc and hillary? is roger stone the same go-between now? is it bannon? who knew what when? who coordinated with people in official capacities? we've got to let this play out, but i'm more confident than ever of one thing. doj, fbi have their act together, methodically taking this story down and unraveling the onion. >> you know, rick stengel, it's not fair to doj, the impatience with which we cover some of these high-profile investigations. i put the matt gaetz investigation in the same bucket. when it is opaque to us, we draw all sorts of incorrect and often unfair conclusions, but this indictment today does seem to pull the curtain back on some of what they've been working on in terms of looking at the connectivity and this conspiracy that they charged. what are your thoughts? >> well, i would agree with that, nicole. it's as serious as a heart attack. i mean, seditious conspiracy is one step down from absolute treason. if you look at the statute, it is about the violent overthrow of the government. i believe it says, it's levying war against the government. there's nothing more serious than that. so, i applaud d.o.d. for doing it. folks like frank and others have said that this is something that's not only comprehensive but methodical and i could only agree with that. the other thing to remember, by the way, about a conspiracy charge is that it only has to be planned. it doesn't have to be executed, much less taken place. so, for the head of the oath keepers to deny that he was involved because it didn't happen is kind of absurd. so, yes, i would applaud the doj for doing this. is it part of a broader conspiracy like frank has mentioned? maybe. but this is now, again, as serious as a heart attack, and i applaud them for doing it. >> rick, i'm glad that frank brought up the sobering point of who is drawn to these groups and from whom the oath keepers and other extremist groups like the proud boys recruit from. they actively recruit from former and active duty military, law enforcement, and they had the ex-president's embrace, warm embrace. i want to show him calling out a different group, the proud boys, at a debate. >> you want to call them -- what do you want to call them? give me a name. >> white supremacist. >> who would you like me to condemn? >> proud boys. stand back and stand by, but i'll tell you what. i'll tell you what. somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left because this is not a right-wing problem. >> his own fbi director said the threat -- >> so, as president biden started to say there, his own fbi director testified to the opposite of that. this is not a left-wing problem. the head of the fbi said this was a right-wing problem that on the left these were not organized groups. but what the groups heard was the president not just putting them on equal footing but elevating them, calling on them to stand back and stand by. is that impact, in your view, rick, still being felt and still reverberating in terms of what we're dealing with, with extremism and those potentially motivated to carry out violence in the name of their extremist beliefs? >> absolutely. i mean, they're domestic terrorists. i mean, nicole, you have had bart gelman on your program a number of times, and he's, you know, the siren of january 6th, but in 2010, he did a cover story for "time" magazine about these illegal, private militias in america and their rise under barack obama because they objected to having a black president. what happened under donald trump is he poured gasoline on that illegal militia movement by basically saying that they are legitimate, that they should stand back and stand by. i would caution people to even use the word "militia" is wrong because there is only one legal militia, that's the national guard. all of these other private militias, oath keepers, proud boys, they're illegal organizations, and they're filled, as frank mentioned, with former law enforcement people, which is why they are so dangerous. but i think, you know, donald trump's siren song to them is something that still animates them and they're thinking about 2024. >> you both described them as domestic terrorists. which is appropriate. but we haven't changed our laws. they're not legally treated as terrorists because they don't fall into any legal definition of such. so, we can't protect ourselves from these individuals, as frank, i think, you have been sounding that alarm for many, many months now, 12 or more. what do we do? >> well, we see steps in the right direction, and certainly, where possible, we can charge seditious conspiracy, outstanding, but when the fbi director testifies on the hill that what happened on january 6th was indeed domestic terrorism, and we don't have the investigative tools in the federal code and in the doj operating guidelines that govern fbi investigations, when we don't have even a law against domestic terrorism, when we seem not to recognize the amazing threat of domestic terrorism now equal to or greater than the international terrorism threat, which, by the way, isn't my statement. it's a statement from the fbi director in previous testimony on the hill. then i look at things like the domestic terrorism, brand-new domestic terrorism unit that doj has announced. fantastic. great. but lots of questions. any new investigative tools? you loosening up the handcuffs on the fbi in terms of how they investigate these groups? are you putting even more bodies on domestic terrorism? or is it simply the creation of a new unit and you're separating the international prosecutors from the domestic prosecutors? lots of questions. steps in the right direction. but until we recognize this for what it is and call it domestic terrorism, and have a law against it, we're still going to be frustrated when we see people at the lower levels being arrested for trespass, assault, and theft. >> we'll stay on it. frank figliuzzi, rick stengel, thank you so much for joining us today. when we come back, there's brand-new reporting about an alliance of big-lie republicans looking to win races in key battleground states so that they could potentially overturn future free and fair election results. that story is next. e and fair e results. results. that story is next ♪ i see them bloom ♪ ♪ for me and you ♪ ♪ and i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ a rich life is about more than just money. that's why at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner so you can build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. at intra-cellular therapies, we're inspired by our circle. a circle that includes our researchers, driven by our award-winning science, who uncover new medicines to treat mental illness. it includes the compassionate healthcare professionals, the dedicated social workers, and the supportive peer counselors we work with to help improve - and even change - people's lives. moving from mental illness to mental wellness starts in our circle. this is intra-cellular therapies. 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(excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. here we go... remember, mom's a kayak denier, so please don't bring it up. bring what up, kayak? excuse me? do the research, todd. listen to me, kayak searches hundreds of travel sites to find you great deals on flights, cars and hotels. they're lying to you! who's they? kayak? arr! open your eyes! compare hundreds of travel sites at once. kayak. search one and done. we do have a coalition that we formed on may 1st and it's a coalition of america first secretary of state candidates around the country, and yes, some of them are here and we're doing other conferences around the country right now and very successful. we're getting the word out. the people are excited that there's somebody doing something behind the scenes to try to fix 2020 like president trump said. you know, we've got to learn what they did in 2020 in order to go forward and keep it from happening at 2002. 2022. >> as you all know, nothing untoward happened in 2020. that guy believes the lies, the lies that have created a fake problem, fake solutions, without evidence, and here we are. go figure. we'll call it a not-so-secret special little club with the shared sinister mission, radically altering state election systems in the name of fixing something that doesn't exist. fraud. in such a way that could overturn legitimate results, the kinds that were attested to being legitimate by lifelong republicans, people like brad raffensperger in 2020. these could have different results in 2022, 2024, and beyond. that man was jim marchand, and he ran for a house seat in 2020 and lost and whined about being a victim of election fraud, of which we know from bill barr, there wasn't any. now he's among a group of big lie republicans who are running in at least eight secretary of state races, all of them are focused on one phony thing, putting themselves essentially at the top of the food chain for elections. and just to give you an idea what these people want to do, that guy, marchand, who said he would have refused to certify president joe biden's 33,000-vote win in nevada, has suggested he'd be open to sending an alternate slate of electors to congress, contrary to the actual election results in his state. he also told "the guardian" that he would act swiftly to introduce voter suppression measures that would include introducing voter i.d., a no-brainer, he said. he would also eradicate mail-in ballots, which have been extensively blamed by conspiracy theorists without evidence, of course, as the source of mass fraud in 2020. and he would open up election counts to aggressive poll watching. he would scrap electronic voting machines, also targeted by big-lie proponents, and replace them with paper counts. joining us now, michigan's secretary of state, jocelyn benson. you have always sort of had a ground truth on what these efforts look like, and i wonder if you could tell us what would happen if these folks are successful. >> it would be akin to putting arsonists in charge of the fire department. i mean, these are people who don't believe in democracy. they are people who don't believe in the rule of law. they are people who have been gaining celebrity by circulating baseless conspiracy theories and some of whom even attended the tragedy at our capitol on january 6th, so this is, you know, another example of the escalating war on democracy that we're facing right now, and also an opportunity for voters to clearly state this november that they reject these lies, these conspiracy theories propagated by people who clearly want to dismantle democracy in our country. >> and you have a challenger who's endorsed by donald trump. tell us about the contrast. >> well, it's a clear choice between someone like myself, who i've spent my entire professional career devoted to making sure every voice is heard and every vote is counted and oversaw and presided over our state's most high turnout, secure election in history. and someone who was, you know, trying to interfere with the counting of votes in detroit and in michigan, someone who is spreading conspiracy theories and lies, baseless and without any evidence. designed to, you know, deter people from voting, harm people's confidence in the elections, and lie to them about the security of our systems with an eye towards furthering a partisan agenda and supporting the failed presidential candidate who is now supporting her. >> at a national level, it's easy to separate out the ex-president, donald trump, from the people that worked for him and knew that there was no systematic voter fraud that would have altered the result in any state. bill barr walked out, sort of post a million lies being told about fraud but pre-coup, but we know that he saw no fraud, even worthy of investigating after the election. we know that lifelong republican chris krebs said this was the most secure election in our country's history. donald trump fired him for delivering that secure election, and we know that there are billion dollar lawsuits for the lies that were told. but i wonder if any of that gets through to your constituents, to voters in michigan, or if the ex-president, donald trump, says it, they believe it. does anything interrupt that cycle? >> well, it's a little bit of both. i think there's a -- i mean, look, we're in a very divisive moment, and on one side, there are people who have unfortunately been deceived by people they trust, leaders who knowingly spread lies to further their own celebrity and gain power at the expense of citizens who are believing those lies. but we do have, in my view, and i recognize that the vast majority of people in our state and around the country believe in democracy, believe in the truth, are critical thinkers, and are part of an informed and engaged electorate who, you know, elected me in 2018 along with our governor and attorney general and who, you know, i hope will keep us all here for another term. but again, that's going to be the choice that voters have and why it's so important for everyone who recognized the sense of urgency to protect our democracy in 2020, who showed up and protected that vote and participated and voted to stay engaged and to not allow the weariness that is afflicting us all right now for so many reasons to deter us from doing the work at hand, which is defending our democracy with an urgency even greater than that, that we had before. >> one of the things that protects against the voter suppression laws and the voter nullification measures that are zooming through state legislatures is federal voting rights legislation. democrats seem to be hitting dead ends, not able to garner support for a carveout from the filibuster and mike memoli, my colleague, who's covered this president for a long time, chalks it up to a combination of structural challenges with folks like joe manchin and kyrsten sinema and even this president's political weaknesses right now. what is the cost in your state and in states around the country that were close in 2020 to not having federal voting rights legislation? >> well, look, as we've talked about before, nicole, this assault on democracy is happening in broad daylight. and we're all doing everything we can, but democracy -- in the state level to preserve and defend democracy just as we did in 2020, but democracy is a team sport, and we desperately need the federal government, particularly our u.s. senate, to step up and recognize, as so many others in the federal government have, and the judiciary in the house, the executive branch, that this is a moment that requires us all, just as 1965 did, to lead to the passage of the voting rights act, to step up, do our part, to fulfill our obligations under the u.s. constitution and protect every voter in this country against a systematic, localized, state-by-state attempt to make it harder for citizens to vote and to make it easier for partisan officials to interfere with voters in the future. now is the time not to talk about arcane rules that are rooted in and have also been used to defend slavery, to block civil rights legislation in the past. now is the time to move forward, get things done, and protect the american voters. >> have you called joe manchin or kyrsten sinema and told them what you just said on our air? >> yeah, and you know, i've spoken with republican senators as well and said the same thing. i'm not a partisan person, and i believe wholeheartedly -- fully in the need for bipartisan collaboration and cooperation and even compromise, especially over important issues like this that we desperately need to see action on. but we also know, and i have seen personally that, you know, when you have one party that is systematically working in the states to undo democracy, that we can't necessarily expect the same members of that party to interfere with that at the federal level, and that's why i believe, you know, in some ways, it could be a fool's errand to seek, in a moment like this, bipartisan cooperation when you only have, you know, again, this one party that's refusing to support any federal protections and is at the forefront of undoing a lot of the protections for democracy in the states. >> michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. >> always a ple nicole. thank you for having me. when we come back, it's too soon to know for sure, but there may be reason to believe that in some parts of the country, at least, the omicron variant just might be peaking. our medical expert weighs in on that after a quick break. stay with us. expert weighs in o that after a quick break that after a quick break stay wagree on anything.ver that's not true! but we did agree this rug was perfect. okay. stop being weird. mom and daughter agreeing on something. wayfair works cles! ooh! check this one out. 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omicron cases may be starting to level off in parts of the northeast that were early epicenters of the omicron variant. david writes in "the new york times" today this, quote, the number of new covid-19 cases in new york city rose more than 20-fold in december. in the past few days, it has flattened. in both new jersey and maryland, the number of new maryland, the new cases have slightly fallen. in some major cities there are signs of leveling off. in boston, the amount of the virus detected in wastewater, a leading indicator of case trends in the past, has plunged by about 40% since its peak just after january 1st. joining us is msnbc medical contributor dr. kavita patel, former policy advisory for the obama white house. dr. patel, is this real, are we so desperate for hope, we're crawling toward the wastewater? >> i never thought i would say these word, i was hopeful to see the declines in the wastewater. they're an accurate way of looking at the status. it's hopeful, but a couple reminders. the state of new jersey and other states have put into effect the last 48 hours alone crisis standards of care, public health emergencies. you saw president biden sending out more military teams. so even though cases are declining, there's a downstream effect of hospitalizations and death lag. we're going to have to see in minnesota, south, society, pacific northwest, there will still be several more weeks of rising cases most likely. >> when we head into another surge. it happened into the fall, abruptly in december with omicron, we say, whoa, whoa, whoa, where are all the tests? we didn't know this would happen. what should we do right now for whatever comes next? >> all the things we've been talking about, high-quality masks, having really and available tests, and i'm going to add to that therapeutics. we never could talk about so many options, an outpatient pill i can prescribe and send to a pharmacy. andy monoclonal antibodies. yes, these are private manufacturer, the united states orders things, but they want to know they're going to have business. this saturday is a watershed moment. private insurance programs must covered tests. we're not going to all use them, and it's a bit like having an umbrella in the category 5 hurricane, but we have to reinforce that boosters and vaccinations are the best protection. >> it's amazing to me that moms and dads of kids under 5 are having to go through this surge with the anxiety of knowing their kids aren't eligible for any vaccines. what's your understanding for wh there isn't a vaccine for kids under 5? >> yeah, so the under-5, pfizer is the manufacturer that is at the front of the line, the 2-5 group, their data at the reduced dose -- [ inaudible ] -- efficacious. so that alone kind of -- to add in a third dose, and then you need to wait some time after the third dote to look at the data. we're looking at something probably in the april/may. nicolle, we have a vaccine 5 to 11, and that has about 20% of the country -- we still have a lot of room to go for the vaccines that are available today. >> it is amazing. we've talked about this for two years. i was in that group. i was elated. i think the latest number, you're right, is 25 march of kids 25 to 11 that have participated in that protection. dr. patel, we'll stay on it. a quick break to us. we'll be right back. > a quick b. > a quick b. we'll be right back. mom, dad's flexing again. that's not all. you can extend the bed for longer stuff. is he still... still flexing. that's right! and, it becomes a workspace... you can put your laptop here. i'm sending maginay email. hey dad, dinner! hey! look who stopped by daddy's office. wait, you work here? the chevy silverado with the available multi-flex tailgate. find new flexibility. find new roads. chevrolet. you could fret about that email you just sent. ...with a typo. aaaand most of the info is totally outdated. orrrr... you could use slack. and edit your message after it's sent. 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(excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. good news/bad news kd of da r the world's number untennis player, novak djokovic is officially the top seed for the australian open. the question now, will the australian government kick him out of the country before then? the immigration minister has the power to do just that. the controversy surrounding djokovic and his vaccination status, but still no decision yet. the clock keeping ticking. it's a story being monitored all around the globe. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back. at intra-cellular therapies, we're inspired by our circle. a circle that includes our researchers, driven by our award-winning science, who uncover new medicines to treat mental illness. it includes the compassionate healthcare professionals, the dedicated social workers, and the supportive peer counselors we work with to help improve - and even change - people's lives. moving from mental illness to mental wellness starts in our circle. this is intra-cellular therapies. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. it's your home. vanguard. and there's no place like wayfair to make your reach-in closet, feel like a walk-in closet now that's more your style. make the morning chaos, organized chaos. and make sure everything's in it's place. so nothing is out of place. however you make it, make your home a place like no other. [upbeat acoustic music throughout] [upbeat acoustic music throughout] what does a foster kid need from you? to be brave. to show up. for staying connected. the questions they weren't able to ask. show up for the first day of school, the last day at their current address. for the mornings when everything's wrong. for the manicure that makes everything right, for right now. show up, however you can, for the foster kids who need it most— at helpfosterchildren.com thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. hi, ari. >> thank you, nicolle. hi. we're tracking breaking news. federal prosecutors now indicting militia leaders. these are new charges against ten rioters and militia leaders in their direct roles in the january 6th insurrection. this is huge news in the probe, because, one, it's the

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