the podcast and you watch the show, this is a taste of what we do on the podcast. it gives us an opportunity to go deeper with guests. we will share two conversations that i had with two people who have been on forefront of what i think is in some ways the most important story of 2021. which is american democracy on the knife's edge. of course, the year 2021 begins with the first ever insurrection. the second time in american history that we had sustained violence around the transfer of power. the first being fort sumpter, the second january 6th. the aftermath of that insurrection, attempts by the republican party to put into place means of stopping future peaceful transfers of power. the on rush towards a future and a president which the republican party, one of the two major parties, has become essentially anti-democratic in a profound way. that's the big story of 2021. in this episode tonight, two people who have been really at the forefront of identifying, warning and fighting against these tendencies. one of the people is cherilynn. she's stepping down after awe a -- nearly a decade leading the naacp fund. she's one of the most social critics, legal thinkers we have. one of the best voting rights lawyers in the country. i got to talk with her. the nature of american democracy, what it has been, what it is now and what it could be. we will bring you that in a moment. first i spoke with barton gelman. he is one of america's most respected journalists. he has pivoted off of -- he was a national security reporter. to be full-time on the democracy beat at "the atlantic." he wrote one of the most influential pieces on this topic before the election. in fact, before i think it was apparent to a lot of people what was happening. it got a lot of attention and i think some criticism for being unduly alarmist. it was written in september 2020. it was two months before the election. it was in "the atlantic." the piece was called the election that could break america. it's risky to write about the future if you are a journalist. the future is unwritten. you don't know what's going to happen. you could look very, very silly. i, myself, have made predictions that ended up being very silly. bart wrote a piece called, the election that could break america, that was the opposite. it was remarkably prophetic. it laid out a blueprint for how trump with sufficient allies across the country could attempt or perhaps be successful in overruling the democratic will of the american people and essentially steal an election or an lectoral college to keep himself in power. he lays this out. yet, it is in many ways ends up being precisely accurate blueprint of the steps that donald trump and mark meadows and all of his collaborators took in the run-up to january 6. in december, he wrote another piece, a follow-up. basically saying, look, it didn't stop after january 6. as you know if you watch the show or you listen to the podcast, we cover this. it kept going. that piece, which was published a few weeks ago called trump's next coup has begun, part of the special issue "the atlantic d did" did, is that adhereadherence, t biden is illegitimate, has become orthodox in the republican party. as we were thinking about the podcast, this show, i thought to myself, there's almost no one i want to speak to more than barton gelman. in your piece published september 23 -- this is before anything. you have got two things in the piece. they are talking about, can we get the state legislatures to just bypass people. you have got the trump team taking the position the vice president can just decide. i don't like those electoral votes. they are talking about that in september. >> because the idea of stealing an election that you didn't win is with them from the beginning. >> exactly right. this is i think what's key. they already are thinking about stealing. then comes all the ridiculous empirical claims about fraud. my question to you is, like, what role is that playing? >> that's a really interesting question. it's justifying the idea that the state legislature has no choice. what can we do? our hands are tied. no one knows what the vote is because it's so tainted by vote rigging and fraud that we don't have any idea who the people voted for. we're just going to have that make that choice ourselves. remember, the whole thing strategically is based on the fact that there are six or seven battleground states where biden narrowly won but where the state legislature is controlled by the republicans. if you can say the people don't get to decide, the legislature does, you are turning seven states red that were voting blue. >> right. my point is here is that as articulated in your piece, is that they are thinking about how to steal is in this anti-democratic way before any votes are cast. then the votes are cast. then there's this frenzy around individual allegations of this fraud and increasingly insane theories like an italian satellite. i guess my question is, what i think that does is -- to your point, it gives predicate. the anti-democratic nature of what they are after is so indefensible, they need to rest it on this foundation. >> predicate is the right word. they are setting up a story line in which they are not overruling the people. they are just -- we can't figure out what the people wanted because there are so many spaceships beaming votes down and dumping ballots in the middle of the night. i guess there are few politicians in america who are willing to stand up and say, i don't think you should have the vote. >> right. even donald trump. >> even donald trump won't say it. that's true. >> then the question becomes to me -- this, i think, carries through to where we are now. i don't know if this matters, but i supect it does because there's something interesting happening with the ethos, the offensiveness of bridging the gap. it's like, it's not acceptable to us as american -- ideological class votes and say we get to decide. you want to invalidate the legitimacy. you build fraud. my question is, of the people now -- the tens of millions of people who have been radicalized against democracy -- maybe it doesn't matter. do they believe the fraud story? >> yeah. >> they believe it? >> i think there are tens of millions of people who believe it in their bones. if you ask them to -- took a lie detector test. >> bet their child's life, they would be that sure. i talked to someone who said, if you are asking me whether -- if i'm wrong about this, you could just shoot me, i will say, yeah, there was fraud. they are completely convinced. they are overwhelmed by the volume of prop began saturday -- propaganda and the language of it. it's explaining the voter fraud. it's what snake oil salesmen have done. used fancy language and snowball all these details. i guess the people in trump's base figure if this one is not right, then the other one is. there are too many. they can't all be wrong. this much smoke, there has to be fire. >> i think that's well said. the barrage of propaganda on this, if you haven't witnessed it, you -- i mean, again, i have to have a little -- i try to put myself -- i have had the experience off. >> announcer: -- off. >> announcer: my life. this is being a journalist. there's expert debate about a thing. you don't know anything about it. you are like, i don't know. who is right on this? these people are fighting about a thing. then you start to weigh in. what's going on here? call people. ultimately what ends up happening is a lot is how you figure out these trust relationships. >> yes. >> who is trustworthy and who is not? there's no escaping the trust relationships in how we form beliefs around the world. there are people who trust untrustworthy people. >> this is something that troubles me greatly as a journalist. i don't know how to reach those people. i have always thought of myself as someone who is reporting and writing for someone with an open mind, who is willing to use common sense, the same as they would use in their everyday life. they wouldn't trust this snake oil salesman if he was selling them a used car. the spider sense would tingle. they would say, how come you haven't mentioned anything about the carburetor? they wouldn't fall for it if someone snowed them with talk. that's in their everyday life. somehow, when they think about politics, their brain just works in a different way. >> you said something recently about your role as a journalist that i found fascinating. just in terms of your training and the tradition you have come up in and the situation you find yourself now in. i want to talk about that after we take this quick break. that we take this quick break esign. because with the right pain reliever... life opens up. aleve it... and see what's possible. ho ho ho! not again. oh no. for the gifts you won't forget. the mercedes-benz winter event. get a credit toward your first month's payment on select models. trelegy for 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how you come to view your role as a journalist and this question of objectivity. i'm curious to hear you say it again and then sort of follow up on it. >> yeah. terry surprised me with the question. i sort of blurted out an answer. i don't regret it. it's uncomfortable for me to talk about the way my role has changed as a journalist in these recent years. because i grew up with mainstream training to keep myself out of the story, to keep my opinions out of the story, to take no side when one side is fighting with another. i realized that there are at least two things that journalists are allowed to be for and to defend. one of them is the truth. one of them is the fundamental tenents of democracy. we are pro-democracy. >> you are allowed to have that take. >> allowed to have that opinion. >> a hot tip. >> the problem is we have one party right now that's pro-democracy. one party that's democratic, that's willing to lose an election, that is willing to uphold the rules and stay within the safeguards. if i point out that mainstream positions in the republican party are simply lies or are authoritarian or anti-democratic, i'm not doing that because i'm trying to put myself on the side of the democratic party. i'm just telling the truth. >> there's also the fact that the nature of american electoral politics, the two-party system is, fairly zero sum at a certain level. i mean that in a few different ways. zero sum in terms of electoral outcomes. it's also zero sum in terms of this democratic ethos insofar as if you say, my core commitment as a journalist and american citizen, which i would say for myself even trumps my job as a journalist, is democracy and one of the parties is abandoning that as an ethos, like, one plus one equals two. >> it's an emergency. it is an emergency. it's the biggest story there is. it needs to be treated that way, both by journalists and by society at large. >> how much do you think it's getting that treatment? >> not enough, i would say. there's been a lot of good journalism done. but i don't sense that there is a tone to it or an overall context in the journalism that says, red alert, our democracy is at risk here. it's sort of high -- it's one side using bad smelling efforts to seek advantage. it doesn't look to be like this scale of the threat is reflected in what's being said. what you are not seeing in the coverage is an underlying message, this is abnormal. this is beyond the pale. this is off the tracks. something is going on here that we haven't seen before and that leads to a very bad place. that's the context that's missing. >> that's the place where i see this most squarely -- there's a bunch of examples is the georgia primary with george purdue. you had a crashing to the of normal and abnormal. david purdue is ten years ago a normal republican politician. i wouldn't think of him as an anti-democratic force in american politics. now he is on a pro-coup agenda. >> yeah. >> that's five alarm fire stuff. >> everything in georgia politics is abnormal in this ways. what you see is you see purdue in a very opportunistic way seizing on a very powerful undercurrent in republican politics. trump's greatest source of strength is that he has convinced many tens of millions of people that the election was stolen. that's a cataclysm. if you believe that, what isn't allowed? there's an imposter who stole the office in the white house. that's an extraordinary thing to believe. trump managed, along with this ecosystem around him, to convince tens of millions of people of that. if you were to administer truth serum to republican elected officials, to david purdue, they would say, yeah, okay, biden won. fair and square. but that's not what the base thinks. they're afraid of the base. some are happy to take advantage of the base to advance their careers, which is where i think purdue in this one. >> again, one of the ironies here -- you got all these states that take extraordinary measures to make voting easier, because we're in the midst of a pandemic. in this context, the republican party does five, well in certain ways. they won a bunch of congressional races they didn't think they would win. it's not like -- this idea that they have is just not even empirically correct. everyone votes, we're toast. they are a competitive party. there's lots of conservatives in america. what will they do with that power? -- the stakes of the normal politics become the full total democratic health. >> right. if you have to worry about what one party is going to do the first time it gets into power with the ability across the board the next time it gets into power, then the stakes change completely. normal politics don't suffice. >> what does suffice? what do you do? >> wow. >> i have the same reaction. i'm just out here ringing the alarm. what i have is a megaphone, so i shout into it every day. >> i feel the same way. it's hard enough to figure out what's going on and state it clearly and analyze it intelligently and to say, there's a big problem here, everybody, let's pay attention to it. it's asking a lot to also know what all the solutions are. the first one is that people have to look at this with a sense of urgency. have to notice what's going on. and have to say, wait, this is not something that is okay. we have to do something about this. i know what i would do if i were working for the other party and trying to organize my precinct or county or state. i would pay attention to these local races to supervise the election, because the republicans are putting a lot of attention into it. they are essentially bipartisan elections. saying, we can't let the election be stolen in the way it was last time. they are believers in completely non-sense claims that they believe it was stolen. i mean, you would want to see small d democrats organizing as much as the anti-democratic forces are organizing, and they're not. >> barton gelman, go back and read, the election that could break america, published in september of 2020. thanks. >> thank you very much for having me. >> journalism is one american institution that has had to fight and improve itself and figure out a way to hold ground for the preservation and expapgs -- expansion of american democracy. that's another battle. one of the wisest and most brilliant people in american public life and one of the most prominent voting rights lawyers in the country and one most -- one of the most righteously ferocious defenders of american democracy is a woman by the name of sherylynn ifill. she joins me for a conversation about this moment in american democracy next. rsation about this moment in american democracy next now subaru is the largest automotive donor to make-a-wish and meals on wheels. and the largest corporate donor to the aspca and national park foundation. get a new subaru during the share the love event and subaru will donate two hundred and fifty dollars to charity. i have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis. so i'm taking zeposia, a once-daily pill. because i won't let uc stop me from being me. zeposia can help people with uc achieve and maintain remission. and it's the first and only s1p receptor modulator approved for uc. don't take zeposia if you've had a heart attack, chest pain, stroke or mini-stroke, heart failure in the last 6 months, irregular or abnormal heartbeat not corrected by a pacemaker, if you have untreated severe breathing problems during your sleep, or if you take medicines called maois. zeposia may cause serious side effects including infections that can be life-threatening and cause death, slow heart rate, liver or breathing problems, increased blood pressure, macular edema, and swelling and narrowing of the brain's blood vessels. though unlikely, a risk of pml--a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection--cannot be ruled out. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions, medications, or if you are or plan to become pregnant. if you can become pregnant, use birth control during treatment and for 3 months after you stop taking zeposia. don't let uc stop you from doing you. ask your doctor about once-daily zeposia. welcome to silversneakers. are you ready to get moving? (throws punch) our new virtual classes were designed for you and millions of seniors like you. you can now choose from thousands of live virtual classes every week. get moving wherever you have an internet connection. and when you're ready, enjoy access to thousands of locations nationwide. with silversneakers, you're free to move. enroll today at no additional cost by visiting getsilversneakers dot com. aleve-x. it's fast, powerful long-lasting relief with a revolutionary, rollerball design. because with the right pain reliever... life opens up. aleve it... and see what's possible. mission control, we are go for launch. um, she's eating the rocket. ♪♪ lunchables! built to be eaten. sherrilyn ifill has brought cases before the supreme court, she had roles, she's the head of the naacp legal defense fund. she's stepping down next year. she started in 1988 working on issues of voting rights. as you are about to hear, we live in a moment where the right to vote is under assault. democracy itself is under assault. in a nearly unprecedented fashion. but is in line with a long history of pro-democracy and anti-democracy forces in american life, often that have revolved around the color lines, specifically around -- supremacy. is she has been part that was fight. she has a unique perspective about what this moment is. i will say, we sat down together for this conversation. i was feeling a little down about where things are, which is a thing that can happen when you spend all your time thinking about it. here is someone who has a more amazing career and has been fighting for american democracy. she gave me a charge of hope. it was a great pleasure to get to sit down and talk to sherrilyn ifill. i didn't want to make this joke in front of you. the joke i was going to make is in basketball there's a stat called plus minus. it's independent of how the player is playing, what the score does while they're on the floor. she's plus minus. it's a little rough. >> i think you are making a different calculation than i'm making. you are making a different calculation. i actually think -- it's the part i feel good about. i feel incredibly pleased and gratified and actually even surprised and hopeful about the progress that's been made in helping millions more people understand the issues that i have devoted my life to than ever before in my lifetime. >> i mean, that's -- >> pure plus. >> the issues you work on, voting rights, and the protection of multi-racial democracy have never been more essentially activating issues in my lifetime. >> and many more millions of people who understand the reality or at least have a sense that there is something that is real and systemic about racism in this country and that it is dangerous to this country. that has not been the understanding of -- certainly of most white people. even some black people who believe, we get the black president and everybody is doing so much better. really didn't understand the depth of it. for the 30 years i have been doing this work, i have never felt more affirmed and equipped to have conversations with people about creating a world that we want, which i think before people were inclined to think, it's okay, it's doing okay. of course, some things happen. there's bad people. i can't complain about, honestly, i started out in 1988 as a voting rights attorney. nobody knew what voter suppression was. very few people outside of our realm and in the communities that we served cared. in fact, while voter suppression was being unleashed against black and brown communities and particularly in the south, not some swing states, as they are now understood, very few white people paid any attention to it. that is not about just republicans or democrats. it's just in general. >> right. >> but as i have always said, what they workshop on us is the stuff that's coming for the whole republic. >> that's such a -- it's a profound and true -- >> at the end of the day, what has happened now and the reason that you and i and maybe many others feel so overwhelmed or feel like this is a catastrophe we can't get out of is because the u.s. is alabama, which if it didn't check alabama, it was always going to be. you want me to be sad about the fact that not just the people that i represent are living in a place that is anti-democratic? i am not. i am actually hopeful that the metastasizing of this terrible thing means we will make a change. that change will be for all people, including the people in the communities i represent. the 52% of black people who live in the south so that when people say they want to write off red states and separate from them, they are talking about a majority of the black population in the country. if people understand that our fate is tied to -- their fate is tide to our fate and that whatever is happening and being tried out on marginalized communities is the stuff they are coming for the whole republic with. that part feels -- i don't know there was any other way to get there. right? i don't know what would drive tens of millions of people of all races into the streets in 50 states except the video of the torture and killing of george floyd. it's an awful thing to say about this country. but it happens to be true. >> i would say it's -- just to reaffirm your point, that it was more than the video. it was the work that you and others have done to create the context. i was thinking about this yesterday. yesterday when i was speaking -- yesterday we lost the -- it was profound and moving that here is this writer that i encountered in college as a young white liberal, radical. blew my mind. but also felt like from mars. it wasn't like -- to watch 20 years later -- >> the outpouring. >> the language. the consciousness. her language. her way of formulating things. the problem as a thing that is in the main -- if not quite the mainstream -- >> yes. >> far more central than 20 years ago. >> i'm going to demand you rethink your plus/minus calculations. >> it was a dumb joke. >> if you are fighting for real transformation and you are not fighting -- this is something we have to discipline ourselves to do. i say -- i said this to a couple of the lawyer on our team in the office. are we fighting to get back to 20 years ago? i started this in 1988. what part of the last 50 years have existed when ldf hasn't had a full docket of criminal justice cases? this is the opportunity to decide, will we as things unravel have a chance to build what we want? there's one way to do that. you don't do that from the margins. you do that from the whole thing caves in on itself, which is what's happening. i don't want it to happen. >> we just went through an insurrection. >> but it's happening. you are in the middle of a global pandemic that won't end because of a concerted misinformation campaign and because the stickiness of white supremacy can be tied to anything. now it's attached to masks and to schools and to vaccination and all of that that's -- the stickiness of that thing. if we don't get that under control -- >> i want to talk about that. i want to talk about the vision of solidarity that you are enunciating. you find it hopeful in a moment where i may feel a little -- >> that's what i'm here for. >> you are delivering. we will come right back. right . long-lasting relief with a revolutionary, rollerball design. because with the right pain reliever... life opens up. aleve it... and see what's possible. i'm so glad we're finally on vacation. yeah, and kayak made it so easy - searching hundreds of travel sites to find us a great flight. my ears still won't pop after the flight but i don't even care.... what? kayak. search one and done. hey hun hey, get your own vapors what? relax with vicks vapobath or with vicks vaposhower. take a soothing vicks vapo moment wherever you chose. want an engaging website to boost your business? you're just a click away from five star fiverr talent. hundreds of freelancer skills like web design. head to fiverr.com today and get something started. what if you could see the details of your great-grandparents wedding day... ...or the record that welcomed your great-grandmother to the world. your family story is waiting to be discovered, and now you can search for those fascinating details for free—at ancestry. back with sherrilyn ifill. a thing that i found as i have gotten older is i used to value intelligence above all. smartness was everything. then i realized that there's a lot of smart people and judgement is everything. you are a brilliant person. but i think your judgment is incredible. i look to you -- >> that's nice. >> really. your conception of politics, the way you are able to blend radical analysis with a vision to move forward is a north star for me. hearing you enunciate the case for optimism is affecting me. one thing that i come back to is, american liberal democracy and the way we think of what it is is basically a 46-year. perment. >> absolutely. >> it's a small thing. your idea -- say more about the idea that we are not trying to rebuild things. we want to make something new, which is an actually equitable, just, flourishing, multi-racial democracy in the 21st century in a way we never had before. >> that is correct. people can be snarky about this. there's no country we are modelling ourselves after. it's one of the reasons why i go to history and revere thurgood marshall because there was no blueprint. >> completely out in space. >> there was no -- what in 19 -- maybe you could. i'm going to create an organization of black lawyers and march through the system, use the tools. really? what was the thing that made them think it was possible? i do feel like that's the space where we need to be. we imagine something that doesn't exist. we feel okay about that. we are willing to take that chance, willing to be strategic, willing to fight for short-term gains. we have a long game in mind. we also recognize that it's not fun. you know? listen, i think -- >> it's so much fun. >> you know why i say this? because i think for those of us who grew up watching the civil rights movement, for me, it's the reason why i became a civil rights lawyer. it looked amazing. i mean it looked so noble. it looked beautiful. it was like they knew what they were doing. they had a plan. they had a strategy. people said, what's the strategy? when i took this job, i got a little nervous. i knew people would ask me that. i went to a talk one night that taylor branch was giving. taylor branch said on the stage in baltimore, he said, you know, during the civil rights movement, leaders and activists -- he said were perpetually anxious about what to do next. that was it for me. yeah, they, too, were trying to figure it out as they went. >> it's funny. the moment you talks about that -- not fun. it's not a fun -- it's elevated. it's a sublime moment of democratic sacrifice, physical sacrifice for this beautiful ideal. the taylor branch books where he will chronicle people are at each other's throats. they ran john lewis out. john lewis -- the john lewis. >> yes. i think because we have come to -- not we, but the civil rights has come to be used in the service of a narrative about this country, of nobility, of a place of opportunity and so forth, that actually we gave them, that they have used to their own advantage, and we have covered everything. we forget how painful it was. we forget how painful it was. >> the thing that i find reassuring -- i feel like there's conflict. people beef about everything. that's social media. it partly is. >> no. >> it's the nature of democratic politics. people have conflicts. even people who are allied or agree. >> it's part what have we believe in. people say, well, the right, they are disciplined. they are all on message. they all got the memo. well, if you want to be in a cult, that's your right. discipline is absolutely one of the major qualities of people who are lockstep in a cult. people who are interested in a progressive vision and democracy not only want outcomes but they value process. that means we necessarily value dissent, things that are not fun. engagement, input from lots of people, deliberation, transparency. see, you are getting exhausted. >> ticking through my personal -- >> all the things that make it get to an answer quickly, make it hard to have everybody on board, make it hard to have the kind of discipline -- we have to accept that. i will say this. you as part of the journalist class, the constant -- democrats never have their crap together. i find it -- i'm not saying the democrats have their crap together. often, they don't. but what they are trying to do is a different enterprise than what the republican party is trying to do. >> the other thing is that gets overstated, too. they fight with each other all the time. the idea of making space for conflict. that point is really a profound one that the process is part -- >> it's part of the belief. the belief system, it's not low taxes, it's how would you get to a decision about low taxes? we care about that. we care about the caucus that wants to say why we shouldn't -- that's part of what we believe in. it's always going to be harder for us. >> it's harder to assemble -- the coalition is harder to keep together. >> yes, yes. it's a true big 10. >> there are people -- people love to ride in on this thing of, well, you know, you don't know that actually older black voters in queens don't want to de-fund the police. i know that. i get that. >> i'm from queens. i do understand. >> these liberals, they -- no, no, no. we are talking about tens of millions of people from lots of backgrounds. they have different conceptions. >> in fact, black people have always had lots of conflict. >> there are many of them. >> all of that is to say that i think that for me, it has helpful to be a student of the real civil rights movement rather than the mcdonald's commercial one. it shows you the kind of conflict that goes into making something that is worth it. something that is noble. something that is true. something that is democratic. something that is democratic. and it ain't fun all the time. i will say this, though -- we have a ball at ldf. just like and i are laughing right now. not because we think any of this is funny. >> you're a profoundly joyful person in hi interaction. >> yes, we have fun. >> i'm going say something. i have been obsessed with -- i don't know if you watched the beatles documentary, "get back." >> i haven't. i've watched clips. >> it's pretty amazing. they're fighting with each other, almost breaking up. >> and they're making songs. >> they're doing something -- they love each other. they love each other, and they're in conflict with each other and they're doing something beautiful with each other and all of that is together. that's kind of good democratic political work is like that, too. there's tough periods. >> this is one of them. i say to people, the last five years, we can't recover. the civil rights movement, if we start it from brown in 1954, and that is to ignore everything from before 1954, and that's e-will the, the last big civil rights period of the era is past. that's 15 years. we're talking about the last five years. how long it felt in 1963? how do you think it felt when the four girls were blown up in the church? there are all these moments, and i've said before that every major piece of civil rights legislation was proceeded by some horrible act of violence, right? it was the voting act rights was the edmund pettus bridge. in 1964 we had the four girls. even 1957 civil rights act was the montgomery busboy cot started. it's always something that push us into this. that's what we have to be able to tolerate. we have to be able to tolerate the painfulness of it. >> let me ask you this final question on the court. because you just mentioned, you know, thurgood marshall. crafted a part of the civil rights movement that was one key part that struck down -- >> apartheid. >> apartheid in the u.s. now, the court had been for most of its life, all of its life, essentially an apartheid court, a reactionary institution that upheld quite supremacy at almost every turn. then it has this period where it does the opposite. >> brief. >> a brief period. what are we in now? >> well, i think now we're in something quite reactionary. you know, this is the most conservative court that we could i think imagine in the last, you know, 50 or 60 years. there's no question about it. and there are lots of elements of the way in which this court operates that should concern us and concerns me as a lawyer, and so it's not just the outcome of the cases, but it's also the process. and if you actually believe in the legal process, which i do. i'm kind of nerdy about the stuff. then you are alarmed about the conduct of the court with the shadow docket. you are alarmed about not just that section 2 of the voting rights act was weakened by the decision, but the majority of the court was willing to give the pen the justice alito to rewrite the senate report that accompanied the amendments act, that he could rewrite the test himself for how judges could apply section 2 for vote denial cases. these things should bother us as well. it doesn't mean there's nothing that can be done with the court. there's been conversations about court expansion. democracy is made of all the component piece, and one piece is the political piece. there is a piece about the professionals that i'm a part of, and i'm not going to let it go. you're a professional, and the journalists have not done their truth in reconciliation, so we're going to be in the same position again if journalists don't pause -- i don't mean individual journalists -- i mean the collectively to take a look at their own practices and how he contributed to the unraveling of democracy. these are the elements that have to take responsibility. and so i think we have a lot of work to do, and that's kind of where my head is at right now. like, what's the work we can push ourselves to do to clean up these elements that allowed this to happen? trump didn't ride in and roll over the country. he was given the opportunity to unravel the country. i describe him as an axel rant, but the sticks and twigs were already stacked. there were many people who saw he was a fire starter and thought it was kind of a fun show. >> yep. the president, director counsel, naacp legal defense education fund, now writing a book, and it's always a great, great pleasure to get quality time with you, so thank you so much. >> thank you so much, chris. if you enjoyed the show tonight, that's great news. i'm glad you did. "why is this happening" has over three year of conversations. you can binge the heck of it the holiday season. we do a variety of topics. stuff that we have never done on the show. we talk to ani di franco, al roker. there are new episodes that go out every tuesday. we'll be publishing the full unedited version to tonight's feeds. wherever you get your podcasts search "why is the happening" and subscribe. thank you for joining us for a special edition of "why is this happening". good night. ing" good night life opens up. aleve it... and see what's possible. i recommend nature made vitamins, because i trust their quality. they were the first to be verified by usp, an independent organization that sets strict quality and purity standards. nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. ebenezer. nature made. ebenezer. ha ha ha ha. marley? first you will see the past. excuse me! coming through! ugh! and then...the present. and finally, ebenezer...the future! introducing the all-electric eqs. happy holidays from mercedes-benz. 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