reports about that day, it is donald trump's dereliction of duty as thompson puts it in this new interview with the post that is a key focus of the as it reaches deputy deeper and deeper into trump world with dozens of subpoenas and depositions. and that has led to a serious push on the other side to stonewall the committee with lawsuits not just from donald trump himself, who sued to block the committee from getting their hands on his records. that suit is now going to be before the supreme court. also from those loyal to trump, folks like alex stone and michael flynn. trump's current spokesman, a guy named taylor bud witch is the latest ally to sue the committee. his lawsuit reveals just how much he has already shared shared with the january 6th select committee. politico reports, quote, he indicated in the suit that he had already provided, quote, more than 1,700 pages of documents, and roughly four hours of sworn testimony to the panel. it's cooperation that he said should have precluded the subpoena for his records. he joins a growing list of people who have sued the january 6th committee in recent weeks, mostly to either block the committee from obtaining their phone records or enforcing subpoenas for documents and testimony. budow ayech is seeking to prevent jp morgan from turning over his financial records. it is the first known suit of its kind. all this as another important witness is moving closer to cooperating with the committee, that would be former new york city police chief bernie karrick who worked with rudy to explore the election fraud conspiracy theories. karrick will release document in the next days and his attorney added he will be appearing for a deposition next month. we start this hour with "new york times" congressional correspondent luke broad butter. also david jolly, national chairman of the serve america movement as well as an msnbc contributor. and our friend former senator claire mccaskill joins us. claire, being away for a week and seeing luke and mike schmidt's scoop about criminality being a very serious element or backdrop for this probe, and the "washington post" reported the same thing, i think, over the weekend. certainly ends the speculation around that. i mean, this is -- this is more than sort of liz cheney's stated commitment to get to the bottom of what the leader of their own party did on january 6th. this represents real criminal and legal peril for everyone involved at this point. >> well, liz cheney has from the very beginning talked about that delay. she has focused on what donald trump did once he saw the images of those people fighting police officers, attacking police officers, breaking in to the capitol, destroying the capitol grounds. he saw that, and he did nothing. now, here's the thing that i have got to point out, though. d.o.j. doesn't need a criminal referral from congress to take action against donald trump. there is no such thing, really. i mean, d.o.j. has jurisdiction to prosecute crimes. they can be subpoenaing these records. they can be doing this investigation, completely independent of congress. they can be, in fact, having a grand jury look at criminal conduct by donald trump failing to act to stop the violence on january 6th. and failure to act can be just as criminally -- make you just as criminally responsible as what you do when you act. so i really think it is important to remember they don't need -- d.o.j. doesn't need a referral from congress to do its job. >> luke, speak to that. i mean, this is -- this was your scoop last week. i was off, but i obviously saw it even from where i was. it sort of landed like an earthquake in the political universe. but to claire's point, and your story makes this point, that it simply increases or maybe adds pressure on merrick garland. but if you look at it from the other side, why isn't this already happening? >> yeah, it's a fair point. i know that some members of the select committee can grown somewhat frustrated with the department of justice. and they don't believe merrick garland has moved swiftly enough in this case. there is a feeling among some of the investigators on the committee that they can get to the bottom of this. they have the manpower. they have the fund from congress. they have 40 investigators working on different teams, probing different avenues of the investigation bringing in dozen of witnesses. so if they are able to uncover something, they will send that to d.o.j. now you can say d.o.j. should be already doing that, or why aren't they already doing that or why aren't they talking to this or that person? that's a fine argument to have. but the fact of the matter is, the select committee is doing it. so if they do uncover anything that dozen expose someone to a criminal referral, they are planning to, if they encounter it, to make that referral. >> you know, i mean, david jolly, the conventional wisdom -- this applied to the twoive impeachments, centered around the political risk of impeaching donald trump. all the framing was around pelosi's political calculation. that's not the point. you do what needs to be done. the fact it is politically perilous means it is all the more important. there is no political analysis on this. i wonder what you make of the fact that it looks from the outside like merrick garland at least -- again, we don't know what we don't know about what's going on inside. but most former d.o.j. officials said if donald trump and his inner circle were under investigation these sorts of lawsuits and legal efforts would be directed a the d.o.j. not at the 1/6 committee. what do you make of the fact that from the outside it looks like they are too afraid to criminally investigate trump's inner circle? >> nicolle, this is a very important conversation a national conversation. you are right, we don't know what we don't know about merrick garland the department of justice. but i think the lack of any public reference to an investigation reflects the sensetivity of a new president's department of justice investigating a former president. that's not to say they shouldn't. perhaps they are. but this is a very serious and sober conversation. i think if we play this script forward inevitably, go ten weeks, 12, 14 weeks from now, we are going to be talking about whether or not the speaker of the house, nancy pelosi, brings to the floor a motion by the house of representatives that includes the elements of a crime committed by the former president to make a criminal referral to the department of justice. and then ultimately, this becomes the defining issue of joe biden's presidency, whether or not his department of justice indeed indicts a former president or not. and then how does joe biden handle that? i mean, there is very few lessons in history of this. we look at the gerald ford pardon of richard nixon. ford's popularity dropped 20%. a lot of people said there was a secret deal. the way ford justified it then was to say, hey, i'm -- this is a national nightmare that only i can end as president. but that doesn't apply here because we know this isn't a national nightmare. half of the country refuses to recognize any culpability of the former president. and joe biden can't end it. you know, this is a former president in donald trump who very well might run again for re-election. this is a real national moment we are approaching. and it's easy, you know, whether it is a red jacket or a blue jacket or rather just your opinion of the former president, it's easy to be -- in how we approach this. but this is going to be a cultural moment for all of american history we are going to face in the coming weeks. >> i want the pull that thread tighter. it is definitional if crimes were committed and they were ignored for president biden and attorney general merrick garland. i understand how fraught it is for a new president of a different party to be investigating and potentially indicting a president last party. and i understand that republicans would eke out such a cost politically. but then they win. i mean, if we are prejudging the outcome and what everyone will do because of what republicans would do -- how did we get so far from just assuming that the facts will be followed? >> well, here's what i hope. i hope that i have an opportunity to apologize to merrick garland. i hope that merrick garland is doing this the old-fashioned way -- quietly, outside of the glare of 24-hours news cycles and breaking stories. that they are, in fact, sticking to their knitting and getting all the information they need, and evaluating it fairly. not avoiding it. because it's a former president. fits criminal, it is criminal we need to stand to the proposition that no one is above the law, especially if we remember the chaos of that day and the horror we all felt when these people were marching flew the capitol with confederate flags and swinging from the balconies of the united states' senate. we need to remember how that felt. and we need to act. and i hope merrick garland is going to do it. when he does, i will apologize for criticizing him for going so slowly. >> i think -- you know, luke, what your reporting points out -- and bennie thompson is specific in the "washington post" interview from the holiday weekend. i am going the read some of this, about what the committee is examining specifically. quote, he wasn't telling people to go home, chairman thompson said characterizing trump's behavior that day. he wouldn't tell them that this is not the way to do it. so i think, since the taping was recorded at the white house, we will have access to it. the possibility of multiple recordings of a message from trump to his supporters has been discussed in interviews with several witnesses. according to a person familiar with the panel's work who spoke anonymously because he was not authorized to discuss details. a lot of people in that white house have testified. a lot of people in that white house have been examined by some of the great books that have been written in the last year including one of them that talked about the then-white house counsel thinking that donald trump would be charged that day. i mean, criminality was also in the minds of people around donald trump, basically through the whole four years of his presidency. but specifically on this day. and i wonder if you could take us inside what the panel thinks about whether or not any of these investigations have commenced. >> yes. so the two main rars they are looking at as they consider -- areas they are looking at as they consider whether to make a criminal referral are, one, did donald trump or his allies, either through action or inaction obstruct an official proceeding of congress? that seems to be easier to prove than insurrection or sedition. what chairman thompson is getting at in those comments to the post is, was he intentionally delaying? these 187 minutes. was there something he was doing to slow down the call to call off the mob? that's what that line of questioning is getting into. and the other is, which is why bodowich filed this lawsuit against the bank records is they are following the money. they want to see exact low who transferred money to whom as this lie of the stolen election was person traded on the public. so who paid for people to come to d.c.? was anyone defrauded in that process? budowich reportedly is involved in the transfer of $200,000 from an unknown source to a non-profit that's then used to promote these events. when you start following the money you don't know always what you are going to uncover, but you might uncover another witness, another document, another bank account. so that is what that line of questioning and argument is all about. i think those are the two main paths that we know about right now. there mite be more that they uncover. their dozen or maybe hundreds more witnesses to interview here. so we don't know what we don't know yet. but we do know they have two very clear lines of inquiry that could result in a referral. >> you know -- and david jolly, that idea -- let me actually read mr. budowich's statement about his objections to his bank records being examined by the committee. he says after complying completely with the committee including sitting for a four-hour deposition on december 22nd i returned home on december 23rd only to find a notice from my banking institution, jp morgan, that they would be handing over my banking records to the committee if i did not provide a court-ordered stoppage by december 24th. following the money by going through the banking records is a pretty classic investigative approach. but it does speak to the intention to prove some sort of criminality, to refer it for the justice department to potentially examine it. i wonder if you think we haven't paid enough attention to wire fraud, bank fraud, the fraudulent raising of money for fraudulent and corrupt purposes. where do you think that investigation is heading? >> yeah. i think that will clearly be identified in the 1/6 report. understand when we talk about a criminal referral from the committee to the department of justice they essentially would be saying here are the elements we uncovered. if those elements are wire fraud or other types of statutory fraud that will be in the report and they will provide to it the department of justice. it is clear there was a number of actors. somebody had to orchestrate this and pay for this. that's why they are following the money. so while they are doing their work, i think the question about these three hours where donald trump apparently was unresponsive, the reason testimony is so important and why members of congress are derelict in their patriotism in not cooperating when they know about the president's communication, it would be easy to believe that donald trump said let's just see what happens, let's see if they get to pence, see if they change the minds of senators. it would be easy to see a situation in which donald trump thought that this attack might work. that's why the communications are important. that's why the flow of money is important. because it brings all the actors together. but the premise was that donald trump laid the predicate with the big lie, issued the invitation to washington, and said go to the capitol with strength. and he made that charge. >> you know, it is such an important thing to wrap around this entire conversation. not just that it is easy to believe. but claire, everything public facing already proves that out. everything public facing. there has been some great reporting in the times and in the post about what trump was doing. he was spell bounds. he was watching television. when kevin mccarthy reportedly talked to him, what he said to mccarthy is he said those people -- those people being insurrectionists, care more than you do. care more than you do. he had chosen a side, knew exactly what his side was doing. they were in what has been described as medieval hand-to-hand combat. and he didn't protect members of his congress. how does that line up with all the document production the committee called for, all the interview does again, we don't know what the vice president's chief of staff, said, kalee mcunanimous me, lots of people who know what donald trump was up to that day have already spent lots of time with the 1/6 committee. >> the prosecutor in me wants to lay this out like an opening statement. >> take your time. >> we know trump was watching tv. we know trump was watching tv. he watched tv all day long for four years. he watched all the channels. we can go through and we can put the images at a specific time. and we can then fill in the text messages, the phone calls that were flooding the white house saying, get him to call them off. now, what was he watching on tv at those moments? he was watching windows being broken. he was watching police officers being stabbed with flag poles. he was watching people hang from the balcony in the senate. he was watching people carry around government property proudly like trophies in the capitol. and, frankly, he was watching a confrontation at the door of the house where someone was killed. this is what he was watching. and he liked it. he liked it. . he naught this, what you are seeing right now, was terrific. give me those facts. give me those time line, and give me a jury. i'm just telling you, any responsible leader would want to end the violence, not provoke it. that's what he did that day. and that's what this committee is going to lay out. and that's where merrick garland is either going to rise to the occasion or go down in infamy as one of the worst attorney generals in this country's history. >> claire, i have never heard you put it that bluntly. i have to just follow up. i mean, what you described is more than a dereliction of duty, which is i think what chairman bennie thompson describes. it's sadistic to watch people maiming other people and beholding the singular power of making it stop because they were at your direction n. terms of the commander in chief. he was the commander in chief of the mob that day, it would appear, not of the u.s. national guards. what is the right sanction for that behavior? >> well, i think there is criminal liability here. i think he needs to be prosecuted and put behind bars for what he failed to do. he alone -- that's why everyone was calling him. that's why kevin mccarthy was calling him. that's why lindsey graham was trying to get ahold of him. what the 1/6 committee is going to do, they are going to show the public all of the people trying to get donald trump to do what any normal human being would do, stop the madness, stop the violence, stop the einstruction. instead, he had to tape over and over and over again a message because he was refusing to say what he needed to say, which was "go home". how many takes -- how many times did they tape him before he finally said go home? it was 187 minutes later, and somebody was dead? this is really simple stuff. it's not complicated. this is why it is so frustrating to watch d.o.j. not do something more aggressive. now, as i say, i hope they are doing it and we just don't know about it. because that's the right way to do it. if they come out with criminal charges against donald trump, i can't wait to come on your show the say i am sorry i was so critical of merrick garland. >> luke, is it your sense the committee has these outtakes or just knows about them? >> my understanding is they have been told about them in testimony. i do not know that they have the video files themselves yet. they could. but i have not confirmed that. one thing i would like to add very quickly is the text from donald trump jr. to his dad during the rampage, where he says "this has gone too far". >> yeah. >> seems to me that even knew his dad was behind this, at least the inspiration for it and it has gotten too out of hand. and he knew that they were responsible for creating this situation. so i thought that text was quite revealing. >> just to that point, i mean, what donald trump jr., laura ingram, sean hannity, brian kill immediate, kevin mccarthy, and everybody else that called donald trump that day knew was that he had the power to shut it off like a light switch. whatever they thought about what they were seeing, they all, based on what they wrote, believed he had the singular power to flip a switch and make it stop. and he didn't. so it's -- your reporting, luke, really adds to our understanding of where the committee thinks they should be heading. luke broad water, david jolly thank you for starting us off today. great the see you both. claire sticks around. when we come back, omicron remains on the finds and on the rise in much of the u.s. today. the impact is being felt everywhere, across everything from air travel to event cancellations as officials debate those isolation rules for everyone who tests positive. there are more questions than answers on that front. plus, american political discourse has been so disrupted over the past four years that a grown man insulted president biden on a christmas call with the first lady with his wife and kids watching with a maga troll that means, according to wick pedia, eff joe biden. and later in the program, the great mass divide. a fascinating and distressing look at how one town's fight about masking and covid safety split the community right in half as we head into another divided new year in this country. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. s after a qui. don't go anywhere. ♪ i'm so glad we're finally on vacation. yeah, and kayak made it so easy - searching hundreds of travel sites to find us a great flight. my ears still won't pop after the flight but i don't even care.... what? kayak. search one and done. first psoriasis, then psoriatic arthritis. even walking was tough. i had to do something. i started cosentyx®. cosentyx can help you move, look, and feel better... by treating the multiple symptoms of psoriatic arthritis. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting...get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections some serious... and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms... or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms... develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. watch me. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. when it comes to autism, finding the right words can be tough. watch me. finding understanding doesn't have to be. we can create a kinder, more inclusive world for the millions of people on the autism spectrum. go to autismspeaks.org. want to save on your home internet? xfinity is proud to support the emergency broadband benefit program. for a limited time, you may be eligible to qualify for a credit of up to $50 a month toward your internet service through this program. that's right! you could qualify for a credit of up to $50 a month toward your internet service and equipment. for even more value, switch to xfinity mobile, and you could pay as little as $15 a month for wireless. click, call, or visit a store to learn more. bottom line is we want to assure the american people in a we are prepared, we know what it takes, and as this group of bipartisan governors has shown, we are going to get through it by working together. >> that was president biden today during a covid response call with the national governor's association reassuring the american people that amid soaring case counts due to the new omicron variant in many parts of the country cases are outpacing the winter 2020 peak while cases appear at this point to be less severe, the variant seems to be much more contagious and it is having ripple effects all across the country. today airlines canceled more than 900 flights in the u.s. they say mainly because of employees who tested positive for coronavirus. and the cdc is changing its quarantine protocols for health care workers who tested positive shortening the isolation period from ten days which it is now to seven days n. a statement they say this, that isolation time can be cut further if there are staffing shortages. dr. anthony fauci telling our friends on "morning joe" that easing quarantine guidance for the general population is also, quote, under consideration. joining us now, professor of epidemiology at ucla's fielding school of health. also jason johnson, professor of journalism and politics at morgan state university. claire is still with us. doctor, i have a million questions. everybody settle in. seven days or ten days is seven days or ten days. and there is no one more important or precious at this hour than our health care workers. if it is good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for everybody? >> that's an excellent question. here's the thing. what we are trying to do is not let great be the enemy of good. who do we need to protect most? our health workers, our health systems. we need to be able to practically speaking get people back in as soon as we can. if we have a tsunami of cases as we are having right now and health workers are testing positive we are going to run into big trouble here if we have people not able to come back in. this is very practical. i believe we will then move forward to have o'other people as well be able to benefit from this kind of reduced strategy. it is going to incentivize people to get tested it is going to make a big difference in terms of getting people out of the transmission cycle and back in the we can keep it short. so i think it will be coming. i think we have to start where we can right now and then move forward as we see that this works. >> can i just be super blunt? is everyone going to get it? everyone i know has covid right now. >> nicolle, everybody is not necessarily going to get it. we have the tools to be able to prevent people from getting it. we should do -- >> how? i have used all those tools. i am triple vaxed, i wear a mask everywhere except when i sit down. and i am going to get it. how do you not get omicron? >> that's very fatalistic. i know how you feel. i understand. i think what we want to do is really want to avoid getting it right now because if we can stop the amount of transmission, we are going to be able to protect our health system. the masks make a very big difference. i would wear a very high quality kn 95 mask. i think it will make a big difference in terms of this. i think avoiding places that are very crowded is going to work. it is not inevitable. boosting is going to be the thing. and vaccinations are really going to keep people out of it. but i understand your frustration. i understand how everybody feels. it is not inevitable. we should do everything we can to avoid getting it. if we have, we are going to have a mild version, and that's much better. totally understood. i get how you feel. so does the rest of the country. but there are things we can do to minimize it. >> i don't feel frustrated. i actually feel relieved. it seems like if you are going to get one of them, this is the one to get. i have got three shots in nine months and i wear my mask everywhere, if i am going to get one, i want this one not the next one. i ask what the goal is, but vin gupta says we are counting the wrong thing. we shouldn't be counting case anymore. we should be looking at 40789izations and deaths. do you agree with him? >> i absolutely agree. the metric we need to worry about is the hospitalizations. when our hospitals are overwhelmed then everything is hey wear. if you have a stroke, a heart attack, appendicitis f you have a car accident, if you need care that suffers as well nothing happens in a vacuum. i am going the say that again. nothing happens in a vacuum. what that means is how do we protect our health system? how do woe make sure we keep our essential infrastructure from breaking down? we do what we can to avoid having more cases. because even if omicron is less severe than delta or the other variants that we have seen before, when you have still a percentage of people who are going to need hospitalization and may die, that number increases exponentially as does the number of cases. our bottom line is we just want to be able to protect the health system. the number of cases suspect the most important thing. but how do we prevent those hospitalizations? by reducing cases. >> you see how difficult this is for this administration. i mean i am a fauci groupie. a thrice vaccinated mask adherent. i buy kn95 masks by the case load, they are in every pocket. i wear them everywhere except when i sit down. and i am certainty this is not a variant i can outrun. and i wonder where you think the sort of conversation is heading at this moment, jason? >> it's what you are saying, nicolle. it is sort of a fatalism or a nilism as the other guest described this. saturday, right, it's christmas, i'm hanging out with friends, very small environment. when i was texting people to say merry christmas, the most common response i got was i am not with family, i am sick. i know seven people who have gotten covid in the last ten days. all are vaccinated and most of them are boosted. there is a sense out there right now, people are like, my goodness the same things i have been doing that kept me safe for a year and a half are no longer working. if the conversation moves to a place of if we are all going to get it, can we just make sure it is not fatal, i mean that way in a political way perhaps help what's being done now, but what concerns me, frankly, and the reason i am extra paranoid and vigilant about this and concerned about getting on planes is, as many doctors have said, we don't have longitudinal data on covid yet. we don't know how this affects you when you turn 50 and 60 and 70. we don't know what the impact is. that is the thing that concerns me. i worry that if people start thinking this is the same thing as chickenpox when we were kids. play with your brother, you will both get chickenpox, then you will be immune. if we have that attitude, but we may have long term consequences to this that our medical system is really unprepared for. >> i don't think anyone is suggesting anyone is trying to get covid but i think that the polling suggests that vaccinated americans are more scared of getting covid than unvaccinated americans. the rupture is so complete that the people who carry around multiple masks in their pockets, have had three shots, have vaccinated kids under 10, are scared out of their freaking minds and the vaccinate ready sort of humming along until they ends up on a ventilator. what do you do as a politician at this moment? >> well, first of all, i think this one is a little bit of a challenge in that it is so contagious. but it appears not to be as dangerous. and it does appear a whole lot of folks are getting breakthrough covid with the omicron variant. i have two things i want to say. one, if you are vaccinated and boosted and you are exposed to someone -- it's my understanding, this is where it gets confusing. that you do not have to quarantine. secondly, here is my biggest point i want to make today. the failure of america to have free available rapid tests is really being shown right now. >> yeah. >> you can't -- i can't buy test where is i am. if you are in europe you could get a test on every street corner, and it is cheap. >> yeah. >> what happened? who dropped the ball on rapid, cheap tests for america? because if you are going to have having this rural issent, if you are going to have something this contagious then you need to know if you have got it. that's the only time you are supposed to quarantine if you have been vaxed and boosted. i am frustrated because i want to be able to test myself, my family, if we are exposed the people, and we can't get them. that is really bad. i need the biden administration to step up and fix that. today. >> doctor, i will give you the last word. >> well, i could not agree more with what everybody has just said here. we need testing. and we boat loads of testing. woe need to be swimming in tests. anybody should be able to test any time they need to test. we shouldn't be remarking tests. that's where we are. we should be thoughtful about what we are doing over the next couple of weeks. we don't want to get covid now because we don't know what is going to happen. do the best you can, get vaccinated, boosted, mind where you are, wear good months. everybody will be in a better situation in the next month or so when we start to see these things move forward. right now we are in the middle ground where we need to be careful. >> doctor, thank you for answering our questions. >> dr. anthony fauci will be a guest tonight on joy reid's program at 7:00 p.m. tonight. between calls about presents and where santa claus is on the norad tracker, presbyterian prebd was hit with a juvenile right wing smear from the father of four children who called into a christmas hotline, bringing political differences to a new low. we will talk about it next. l diw low. we will talk about it next are you taking a statin drug to reduce cholesterol? it can also deplete your coq10 levels. i recommend considering qunol coq10 along with your statin medication. the brand i trust is qunol. oh yeah, we gotta take off. you downloaded the td ameritrade mobile app? yeah, actually i'm taking one last look at my dashboard before we board... and you have thinkorswim mobile- -so i can finish analyzing the risk on this position. you two are all set. choose the app that fits your investing style. ♪♪ ♪ ♪ wow, we're crunching tons of polygons here! what's going on? where's regina? hi, i'm ladonna. i invest in invesco qqq, a fund that gives me access to the nasdaq-100 innovations, like real time cgi. okay... yeah... oh. don't worry i got it! become an agent of innovation with invesco qqq i hope you have a wonderful christmas. >> hey, well -- yeah, i hope you guys have a wonderful christmas as well. merry christmas, and let's go brandon. >> let's go brandon. i agree. >> that's what you heard there. it was an oregon dad, his four kids. he's a self described rethinking american a follower of jesus christ. he called into the norad tracking center on christmas eve. what he said, let's go brandon means eff joe biden in very anyonely coded lexicon. he said the comment was made in jest before whining for days now for utilizing his freedom of speech. the story could have ended there. but he went on steve bannon's broadcast today, podcast, whatever he has. there he was, jared schmeck wearing his maga hat. >> donald trump is my president and still should be president right now. the election was 100% stolen. i want to make sha clear. let's go brandon is more than eff joe biden. it encompasses the entirety of our frustration with joe biden, the administration, the leftist mob, the cancel culture, the mainstream media. they are the ones who made this a thing. and we are able, as conservatives, we are able to find humor in this. but there is terrible things going on. >> i don't want where to start. let me tell you why this matters. the asymmetry has always been what advantages the trump right more than anything else ask. the asymmetry of saying eff you to a sitting president on a call in front of our four kids -- don't look past this. don't look at this as a story about giving air time to a maga guy who goes on steve bannon's podcast and says i won't joking. not only did i say eff you, mr. president, i said more than that. this is the slow motion insurrection, jason, in full color. >> yeah, nicolle. here's the thing. there is nothing more entertaining to me that people's whose names i have never heard of before saying i am canceled as they are being amplified. that's the thing. i didn't know who this schmeck schmuck was. now he is being canceled. he is going to have t-shirts and turn up on turning point next week giving speeches with kyle right enhouse. that's 2 hi poe accuracy you are pointing to. all of these people are basically insurrectionists in training now. if you wanteds to say -- look, presidents hear insulting things all the time. larry wilmore made a highly inappropriate joke next to barack obama. people can say rude thing to the president. that's not the issue. but when these people are speaking, they are not joking. maga isn't about taxes. let's go brandon didn't about what you feel about supply chain issues and gas. it is the cry of insurrectionists. it is the cry of people who want to vie lieutenantly take over this country and oppress anyone who is not like them. and that's what makes this dangerous. and to the degree that joe biden can laugh it off or anything else like that, that's fine. but i hope we have a justice department and an fbi and a cia that investigates where the anger that leads to these kinds of statements comes. to because these people already attacked us with guns. do you think they are going to come back with something less aggressive next time if they feel like they can speak this way to the president? i don't think. >> the first amendment protects mr. shmeck's right to say what he said. i celebrate those rights. those rights are in danger by what he said to steve bannon. the people who seem to be using the hell out of the first amendment are the ones who are sort of tantalized by moving away from the democracy who provides those freedoms. is that to elite way to look at it? do you think any of them understand the irony of that, claire? >> you know, i -- this whole thing i find incredibly sad. this was christmas eve. and this is a man who purports to believe in jesus christ. well, this is a holiday that is supposed to be completely saturated with the notion of joy and peace on earth and good will towards men. and the teachings of jesus christ, which is all about taking care of the least among us, and the golden rule, and being kind to others. and this man, knowing what would happen, on national television, in a call, says eff you to the sitting president, who is trying to lift him up on christmas eve, and his children. that's just sad. that's pathetic. that's just what it is. and it is not what the holiday is about. it's the antithesis of what the holiday is supposed to be about. and i find it completely wrong that we have gotten to a point in this country that anybody is ever comfortable saying eff you to a sitting president no matter what the circumstances much less on christmas eve, in front of his children. >> yeah. this is who we are, though. that's why we cover it. up next, some urgency for the new year to do whatever it takes to protect our democracy. that story is next. i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! 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(excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. johnson & johnson one gram of sugar, is the world's largest healthcare company. building a future where cancers can be cured. strokes can be reversed. joints can be 3-d printed. and there isn't one definition of what well feels like. there are millions. we're using our world to make your world a world of well. a must in your medicine cabinet! less sick days! cold coming on? zicam is the #1 cold shortening brand! highly recommend it! zifans love zicam's unique zinc formula. it shortens colds! zicam. zinc that cold! the people around the world watch what we do as america, and right now, we're about to take ourselves off the map as a role model. if we let -- if we let people destroy one of the most important pillars of a democracy, which is free and fair elections. >> when our kids look back, five, ten years from now, at this moment, it will be on our watch that we either stood for and fought for our democracy or not. and i think that is all at stake right now. >> that was vice president kamala harris yesterday, sounding the alarm again on the fight for voting rights as we head into a new year. "the washington post" editorial board put it, 2021 was a year in which voting rights and democracy itself dwindled. it's up to democrats in congress to act and save it before the midterm elections. as dire as that sounds, there's some hope on the horizon and signs that something will happen in the coming weeks. senate majority leader chuck schumer saying democrats will try and change the senate rules for voting rights should the gop block legislation again. with president biden agreeing to support such an exception. jason and claire are back. jason, it's a huge deal. this is sort of the filibuster carveout everyone's been waiting for. are you -- is this something -- is this sort of firm, or are you still believe it when you see it? >> i'll believe it when i see it, nicole. this is the crazy part about this. this is not some new magical thing that some archivist came running up to chuck schumer and said, i found it. we've known about this since joe biden got into office. it's been very clear. the moment that rafael warnock and jon ossoff got into the senate, we have known. all this is known. so the ideas that we're now discussing, should we have a carveout for the filibuster, just says to me that there is not enough urgency on the part of the administration. i'm not even going to do 50/50 hindsight as to whether build back better, infrastructure, whatever. i don't see any evidence that joe manchin or kyrsten sinema is willing to do it. they'll do it for the debt ceiling and judges but they do not care enough about voting rights because they do not seem to understand the threat to our democracy that we're facing. so, you know, i'll believe it when i see it and i don't see anything that suggests that anything is going to change any time soon. >> claire? >> i actually think that this is a smart move on schumer's part and i think the letter he sent is really important, what he said. and this is what i think we ought -- the drum that ought to be beat over and over and over again. the state legislatures are using their majorities to suppress votes, so what is wrong with the senate using a bare majority to protect votes? it's just that simple. and that's what schumer pointed out. they shouldn't stand by and let simple majorities do things that take away people's rights to vote, and not answer in kind. i do think something will happen. will it be everything we want? will it be everything we need? that remains to be seen. but i think schumer would not be saying he's going to have a vote if he wasn't confident that pressure would be brought to bear and if he can get manchin to move on some of this filibuster reform stuff, i have to think that we could get to a 51 vote with the vice president breaking the tie. >> claire, you served alongside joe manchin. joe manchin has never expressed an interest or a willingness to filibuster reform anything. do you think this is it? do you think he does it for voting rights? >> he has expressed an interest in some filibuster reform. he's not expressed an interest in doing away with the super majority required to pass legislation. but there's a big difference between filibuster reform and completely doing away with the filibuster. and so the question is, what will he be willing to support, and will it be enough to get the important provisions of voting rights across the finish line? i do think -- both he and kyrsten sinema support this legislation, so they support what's in the bill. which is a big step. and john lewis, we even have lisa murkowski that is on board. so, we even have a bipartisanship in one of these two bills. so, i really think if they can do some reform, that, you know, it maybe won't happen. i mean, joe has surprised me on build back better, how stubborn he's gotten, and he may -- he may play true to form here and right into mitch mcconnell's hands again. >> jason, what do you think is the most sort of helpful way to frame this? i mean, we cover it every single day. the republican fight to make it harder to vote and rig the counting of the vote and the category of nullification is -- it's in another league. i mean, it happens all day every day. it's messaged to and among republicans all day, every day. vice president's comments in that interview were very strong. the president is strong on this. but it's not a sustained campaign. what do you think the chances are that that changes? >> well, it basically has to or they're going to lose everything, and republicans, if they take over the house and senate, will come up with some excuse to try to at least impeach him. but this is the thing i want everybody to understand because the vocabulary here gets a bit muddled. what we're talking about with voting rights legislation and john lewis act and everything else like that, it's not reforming the filibuster. it's not changing the filibuster. it is leaving the filibuster intact and just making a carveout, which is exactly what they just did for the debt ceiling. that's the thing. they can't hide. joe manchin and kyrsten sinema can't hide anymore and say, well, i support this legislation, but i want to protect the filibuster. you don't have to do anything to the filibuster. it shouldn't play a role in voting rights legislation, and that is what they're hiding behind and that's what i think joe biden should be saying, and again, i've said this before, if this is a federal issue, and it is, people's federal rights are being affected, how they can vote for house or senate, you should send the department of justice, eeoc, every single agency you can to protect people's rights. it was done in the '60s. it was done in the '60s. why not do it now? >> jason johnson, claire mccaskill, thank you so much for spending time with us today. great to see you both. happy new year. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a very short break. deadline white house" starts after a very short break. throughout history i've observed markets 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that in place, it then will be -- >> wrong piece of sound. we're going to find the right piece of sound. we're going to tell you a little bit of the reporting that we were trying to underscore. in july of 2020, in the city of enid, oklahoma, a group of red shirt wearing residents who dubbed themselves the enid freedom fighters, voiced their opposition to a proposed indoor mask mandate in their town at a city council meeting. that meeting where, spoiler alert, the mandate did not pass, and the anger and frustration it showcased is the feature of a new report in "the new york times" looking at how fights in this country ostensibly about masks are so much more than fights about a piece of cloth that you wear on your face. here's that meaning. >> the way i love my neighbor is to fight for liberty, theirs and mine. we have never in history masked healthy people, and let me say, now is not the time to start. >> these people here are what we call the silent majority. they're 90%, 95% of americans, but they've been shouted down for the last 20 years. and they're finally here to draw a line, and i think they're saying, we've had enough. >> i am against the proposed mask mandate because it will criminalize constitutionally protected rights. >> so, the piece of reporting in the "times" delves even deeper into the creation of the enid freedom fighters, a group started by melissa crabtree, who was the first woman you heard at the top of the clip we just played. about her, "the new york times" reports this. crabtree could feel that change overall was accelerating and that was making her feel like she was losing her country, like it was becoming something she did not recognize. quote, i truly think that what we're doing is pulling our republic apart at the seams, she says. so when she heard about the indoor mask mandate proposal last year in her city, she jumped to get involved. she discovered that she liked bringing people together, people whose thinking she shared. it felt good to learn together and to belong to this group she was building with urgent purpose. so, that group and its message of liberty above all else gained momentum. the "times" reports this. in february, the freedom fighters swept the local elections, winning three seats on the city council. winning felt good and they kept going. over the course of this year through a series of elections, appointments and city council votes, they have helped get four candidates on to the school board. another four on to the library board. these changes in enid, oklahoma, are representative of a national pattern that has emerged during the pandemic where science and facts and safety are viewed as antithetical to a person's constitutional rights for people actively rebel against measures to protect them and treatments that have ended this pandemic, perhaps before omicron got here. where misinformation and disinformation about the virus spreads like wildfire and where tensions have reached such a boiling point that they pose a -- they intersect with and potentially pose a domestic terror threat. which brings us back to the reflections in this extraordinary piece of reporting in "the new york times." that these battles are, of course, about something much larger than masks. quote, from lockdowns to masks to vaccines to school curriculums, the conflicts in america keep growing and morphing. even without donald trump, the leader who thrived on encouraging them, in the white house. but the fights are not simply about masks or schools or vaccines. they are, in many ways, all connected as part of a deeper rupture, one that is now about the most fundamental questions a society can ask itself. what does it mean to be an american? who is in charge? and whose version of the country will prevail? that is where we begin this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. dr. peter hotez is back, the codirector of the center for vaccine development at texas children's hospital, the dean of the national school of tropical medicine at baylor college of medicine, and his free time, he's a one-man war machine against disinformation about the pandemic. also joining us, kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for the "boston globe" and msnbc contributor and co-host of the superb #sistersinlaw podcast and my dear friend, former republican steve schmidt is here. steve, i pulled that reporting out and started with it because we spent a lot of time here saying, how? why? why are these people on ventilators saying, can i take the vaccine now? why are they yelling at icu nurses and doctors as they try to sedate them and make them comfortable before intubating them? why? how does it happen? this piece of reporting does as good a job of anything i've seen at explaining how we got here. >> well, at the end of the day, it's a very interesting piece of reporting. i think that offers a great deal of insight to this moment in time, but this rupture in the country is not a new rupture. the construction workers versus the hippie college students in 1971 rioting and fighting in new york city. we have had, in this country, since 1965, when the first troops went ashore, combat troops, regular army troops, marines in danang in the vietnam war, poor blacks, poor whites, hispanics are the ones who are drafted. college kids get out of it. so we've had this class resentment in the country since the beginning, and that's what this is. 40% of the country doesn't have $400 of cash available. we live in this society where accountability is the bottom down, not topdown, and we see the resentments coming to life, and these issues have become a proxy. it's about who gets to say who has to do what, and lost in this, right, is any sense of the public good, the common good, and at the source of it is this misinformation machine that makes billions of dollars a year. fox news, the right-wing ecosystem that it feeds. facebook that imprisons these people with the misinformation through its algorithms. so, all of this combines to eradicate any sense of duty, obligation, responsibility, and god forbid these people should ever learn that once upon a time, there was a draft and the government asked people to go to war and told them they had to. so, we're at this extraordinary moment, but it's important not to look down on these people as much as it is to save our anger for the people who have so profoundly misled them and made billions of dollars doing it. >> steve, you've broadened the lens. let me just sort of speak to that broadened approach to this. the county of garfield in which enid is the seat was 94% white in 1980. last year, the figure was about 68%. the county experienced one of the largest increases in racial diversity in the country over the past decade. that's according to 2020 census data. so much of this is about fear of change, fear of -- i mean, her quotes in the story are extraordinary. the mask mandate tapped into fear that the country was coming apart. >> change. america is in this process of becoming a majority nonwhite country, but change has always been part of the american story, and in 1910, there were 91 million of us. 91 million americans. about 10% of the population was black, and only slightly more than a million lived in a northern state. imagine that. there were very, very few black people living in the north of the united states. 110 years later, america doesn't look like that. america has always looked different, has always been becoming something new, generation after generation after generation as it's become this multiracial, multiethnic pluralistic democracy that spans a continent filled with 325 million souls. it was called from the beginning, the cause. what was the cause? it was an experiment. the american experiment. this idea that we could govern ourselves. and so the country has always been in a state of change, and nothing is different today, and there has always been forces that resist this change. that resist the idea that the american ideal can be for everybody regardless of race or creed or gender or circumstances of birth in that contest. that fight has defined the story of america since hour one. that is our story. >> kim, we have now been living with the coronavirus pandemic to have some real data about what determines not just survival rates but, well, yeah, survival rates, deaths. let me read some reporting from npr. npr looked at deaths per 100,000 people in roughly 3,000 counties across the u.s. from may 2021, the point at which vaccinations widely became available, people living in counties that went 60% or higher for trump in november of 2020 had a 2.73 times the death rate of those who went for biden. counties with an even higher share of the vote for trump saw higher covid-19 mortality rates. that just lands with a -- an ache that your political -- as steve is describing it, your sort of political ecosystem is so hermetically sealed that information about potentially life-saving vaccines can't get in. >> yeah. i think that that is absolutely true. look, you had the previous administration that, for whatever reason, hung its hat on denying the seriousness of this pandemic as it raged forward and tried to paint it as a hoax to prevent the then president from being re-elected and now it has mixed in with this sort of distrust of government that's been fomented about the misinformation that steve was talking about. that makes people wary to trust science. if a political side that's opposite to theirs is pointing to things like science, it makes them more likely to discount it, and i want to hear more about what dr. hotez says about how we get over that. but the one difference, i would say, to what steve was saying is, yes, this is a country that is a part of an experiment. when i read that "new york times" piece, what it reminded me of was reconstruction. it goes back way farther than the '60s. it is a form of a fear-based campaign to make people say, hey, the american -- the america that you know, the america that you love is under attack. they're making you do something. it could be something -- honestly, wearing masks, that's the silliest part of it. there's no constitutional right not to wear a mask. but what we saw in reconstruction was after the civil war, black people were being given not only land and power to vote, they were being elected to office. they were having a real say in what was happening. and that was the birth of jim crow. that was people saying, hey, this is not the america that you know. it's changing completely. and we saw the brutality of jim crow not just in the south but throughout the country. this is something else that's happening with critical race theory, with other things, saying, hey, this is an attack on who is really -- on you. you're really the american people. these outsiders are not. so, it's something far more nefarious than just pushing back against a mask mandate, because you've been fed some misinformation. about what it means. it's really a fight for the country. i am really fearful at how successful it has all been, how something like an -- in a place like virginia where i used to live that lies about critical race theory can turn a gubernatorial election. i think that's something that people really need to pay attention to and i think the way it's playing out in the pandemic is just one part of this really big cancer that's happening in this country right now. >> well, dr. hotez, the power of this piece of reporting is that i think -- and this is not to disparage any other piece of reporting by comparison, but we, i -- we look at all these things separately, right? we have different topics for different conversations and different guests. what this piece of reporting does is cuts right down to the bone and goes through the skin and the muscles and it gets right down to all these big things that have been triggered by public health mandates and recommendations to wear a mask before there's a vaccine and now that we have omicron. and i wonder, you know, first, your thought to this bigger thing, that you seem in all of your public appearances to understand that this is about something more primal for people. the resistance is more than resistance to medicine and science. >> yeah, nicole, here's where we're at, and here's how we got here. first of all, where we're at, here's the bottom line. since june 1 of this year, 200,000 unvaccinated americans have lost their lives to covid needlessly because they refused vaccines. they were defiant of getting vaccinated despite the widespread availability of vaccines. that's 200,000 americans, anti-science aggression from the far right is now one of the leading killers of young and middle aged adults in the united states, 200,000 lives thrown away, and the projections are those numbers will double to 400,000 by -- probably by the end of the first quarter of next year. so that's what's at stake. and we know where this is coming from. it's -- and i call it anti-science aggression. it's coming from the conservative news outlets, especially the evening anchors. it's coming from members of congress, right? we heard at the cpac conference, first they're going to vaccinate you, then they're going to take away your guns and bibles and as ridiculous as that sounds to us, there's a quarter of the country that believed it or that vaccines are nothing more than a political instrument of control. we just had governor palin make comments along those lines over the weekend. and then, which is really nefarious and diabolical, a whole cadre of contrarian intellectuals or pseudointellectuals from far right-wing think tanks who have been brought in to give an academic cover, some of them even professors at stanford and harvard, and that's what we're up against. this is a whole anti-vaccine, anti-science machine, and how did it start? it started in the 2010s, the anti-vaccine movement needed to reenergize because a number of us had debunked the phony links to autism, and they found the republican tea party. they both found each other. they became a political movement. they started forming political action committees here in texas, we had texans for vaccine choice. it was oklahomans for vaccine choice, and it really accelerated in texas, and then starting at the time of the pandemic, it added on protests against masks and contact tracing under this banner of health freedom, medical freedom, and now it's a political monster, and the key is to try to find a way to uncouple the anti-science out of the far right. to say, out of political extremism, to say, you want to have whatever ideas you want to have, okay, but this is not your fight. don't adopt this anti-science aggression, because it's taking so many lives and taking overwhelmingly people from conservative states, from red states, and as i said, 200,000. that's the current number. >> that's an unbelievable -- an unbelievable figure to have this data and still not be able to do what you're talking about, dr. hotez, it's distressing. for the science believers, i have some breaking news that has happened -- been announced since we've been on the air. the cdc has officially shortened the isolation period for someone who tests positive for covid. i want to get this right. if they test positive for covid but they're showing no symptoms, the isolation period can be shortened by half for people who contract the virus, saying that those without symptoms could safely resume mixing with others just five days after their positive test results. the new guidance announced as the highly transmissible omicron variant is sending daily case loads soaring, worsening a labor shortage and forcing airlines to cancel thousands of flights. dr. walensky saying this in the last few minutes. the omicron variant is spreading quickly and has the potential to impact all facets of our society. the new recommendations balance what we know about the spread of the virus and the protection provided by vaccination and booster doses. these updates ensure people can safely continue their daily lives. dr. hotez, your reaction. >> well, you know, it's a little bit born out of desperation, because this omicron variant is so highly transmissible, particularly for the healthcare workforce. and so here's the problem right now we're getting into. so, hospitalizations are climbing, so i think we have to kind of down -- discount some of the happy talk we're hearing. we are seeing a lot of hospitalizations happening now in new york and washington, d.c., 50%, 60% increase in hospitalizations. predominantly among the unvaccinated, although some breakthrough hospitalizations, even those who are vaccinated, and the worry is there's going to be nobody to take care of these people because so many of the healthcare providers, even if they're fully vaccinated, are getting breakthrough infection, not sick enough to land them in the hospital but sick enough to keep them at home, and so we've learned over these last two years, when mortality really skyrockets is when icus and ers get overwhelmed and that's the risk here. we've got this one-two combination that could make this omicron wave as bad as any other, even if the overall severity and lethality of the omicron variant is less, you've got that one-two punch combined with knocking out the whole healthcare workforce, not to mention all of the social disruptions we're already seeing with the airlines and even though we're not doing lockdowns, effectively, it may turn into that because so many employees are unable to show up in the workplace. so i think the cdc is rightly concerned about how to balance this and how to keep our healthcare providers in the workforce and other essential workers our emergency personnel as well, so that's what's driving this right now. >> dr. hotez, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. kim and steve stick around. a reminder for all of you, dr. fauci will be a guest on my friend joy reid's program at p.m. eastern, of course. when we come back, medical disinformation on the campaign trail. the senate candidacy of celebrity physician dr. oz is bringing fresh scrutiny to his record of dispensing dubious, sketchy, weird medical advice. that's next. plus, holding the spreaders of the big lie accountable. rudy giuliani and one america news are the targets of a new lawsuit by election workers in georgia who say they launched a campaign of lies that made them the objects of threats, harassment, and vitriol. and the spike in covid cases that we have been talking about wreaking havoc on the sports world with more and more teams now unable to field enough athletes to play their games. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. 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(gentle music) when you have xfinity xfi, you have peace of mind built in at no extra cost. advanced security helps keep your family protected online. pause wifi whenever for ultimate control with the xfinity app. and family-safe browsing gives parents one less thing to worry about. security, control and peace of mind. with xfinity xfi, it's all built in at no extra cost. one of the more significant aftershocks of the reality tv guy lying and grifting his way all the way to the oval office is that now celebrities who might normally have stayed far away from the political arena are suddenly asking themselves in the mirror, why not me? it can be a winning formula. you'll remember in 2020, coach tommy tuberville became senator tommy tuberville of alabama. similarly, heshl walker, a trump darling, will try to turn football stardom into a political space for himself, despite questions about his past and conduct and credentials. and then there's dr. mehmet oz. fighting to win senator toomey's soon to be vacated senate seat in pennsylvania despite the fact that he lives in a mansion in new jersey. he's asking himself that question, why not me? he might have found the answer this weekend in "the new york times." the celebrity physician faces fresh scrutiny for dubious medical advice, often presented as fact on his tv show over the years. and the way he promoted limited studies in the beginning of the pandemic, having to do with the efficacy of various drug cocktails. from that new reporting, quote, in ebullient language, he's made sweeping claims based on thin evidence, which in multiple cases, like that of hydroxychloroquine, unravelled. over the years, dr. oz, 61, has faced a bipartisan scolding before a senate committee over claims he made about weight loss pills. he has warned parents that apple juice contained unsafe levels of arsenic, advice the fda called irresponsible and misleading. and in 2013, he warned women that carrying cell phones in their bras could cause breast cancer, a claim without any scientific merit. in 2014, the british medical journal analyzed 80 recommendations from dr. oz's show and concluded that fewer than half were supported by evidence. joining us now is tim o'brien, steve schmidt still here. tim, what trump wrought is folks like dr. oz who are on tv and have fans on tv who say, why not me? >> i think you put your finger on it, on the celebrity side of it, nicole. i think there are a lot of celebrities, whether they're b-list or c-list celebrities thinking, if donald trump can do this, i can do this. it's also important to realize we've had celebrities use their celebrity to run for public office. ronald reagan, arnold schwarzenegger, jesse ventura. the added danger is it's celebrity plus propaganda. it's celebrity plus conning the american public, and we have had a long history of con men and women in the united states, you know, in the 18th and 19th century, they were all over the place. in the 20th century, the grift and propaganda, a new medium of radio. joe mccarthy wedded it to a new medium of television. donald trump in the 21st century and in the 2010s wedded it to social media and i think one of the more significant things for us to put our finger on with dr. oz is that he is embracing trumpism and he's yet another exhibit in the extent to which trumpism has overtaken the republican party because people like trump and people like dr. oz know that propaganda and division is successful among the republican base right now. and dr. oz comes from a history in television in which he promoted quackery. a significant portion of his shows were not evidence based, but he did it for years and the institutions that aired his disinformation empowered him, and now he's taking that to the political realm and if dr. oz becomes the governor of pennsylvania and decides to work hand in glove with the pennsylvania legislature to disenfranchise the voters of that state, the commonwealth of pennsylvania, and continue trumpism in a very robust form, it's dangerous, and it's a threat to democracy. you know, it's not just only a vanity run. it's a vanity run that's loaded with warning signals too. >> yeah, i mean, and steve, our friend claire mccaskill, as senator, cleaned his clock about the lack of science in his medical advice, that to his viewers could have been taken from someone called a doctor for just that, medical advice. but you know, just to tie it back to our last conversation, the republican party is disdainful of real science, and this feels new. enthusiastic about junk science. let me show you claire's questioning of him. >> quote, i've got the number one miracle in a bottle to burn your fat. it's raspberry ketone. quote, garcenia may be the simple solution you've been looking for to bust your body fat for good. i don't get why you need to say this stuff, because you know it's not true. >> i don't think this ought to be a referendum on the use of alternative medical therapies, because if that's the case, listen, i've been criticized for having folks come on my show talking about the power of prayer. now, again, as a practitioner, i can't prove that prayer helps people survive an illness. on the other hand -- >> you don't have to buy prayer. >> that's the difference. >> prayer is free. >> i think we all miss having claire on the united states senate but you know, her point, steve, is that advocating for prayer isn't a swindle. and i think that what is alarming isn't so much that dr. oz wants to run for the senate seat. it's that republicans want him to. >> well, let's just look at this a little bit more closely for a second. i mean, first off, and i say this as someone who's a native new jerseyan. he's from new jersey. he doesn't live in the state. and like, you know, i mean, the idea of, like, this is like the golden age of new jersey, right? we got a guy in new jersey who's going to be the congresswoman in wyoming, you know, deciding in pennsylvania. it's just extraordinary. second thing, and i want to be really clear about this. he's a dual citizen. he's a dual u.s. and turkish national with close ties to the turkish dictator, or autocrat, whatever you wish to call him, i guess dictator is really not quite fair, but he has close ties to erdogan that need explanation. he served in the turkish military. we know that he could be bought off pretty easily by any quack pharmaceutical company that wants to, you know, license weight loss into a pill. this is someone who's unfit by any standard from residency forward to be in the united states senate. yet, in this moment of extremism, he is of a new genre of candidate that we will see more and more of. and it's not that he is on television. personally, i think it would be great if sanjay gupta was in the united states senate, right? someone who's been around for a generation who's kept faith and trust with the american people. what we're seeing is the ascension of people without character. the ascension of people where the grift, the greed is all just plainly on the surface because the only credential and the only qualification that matters in the eyes of the electorate that will decide this primary, is he loyal to donald trump? is he trump's guy? and that's what he is bringing from new jersey into a pennsylvania senate race in the republican primary. he'll be trump's guy. he'll be as obsequious as mike pence is. i guess that's the qualification, obedience and lackey-like loyalty to be a nominee in this day and age and that's bad for the country, because these offices require the taking of an oath to a constitution, not to a leader, not to a dictator, not to a king and certainly not to donald trump. >> steve schmidt, thank you as always for spending some time with us. when we come back, there's a new lawsuit against rudy giuliani and a right-wing media outlet, both blamed for spreading lies that led to threats and harassment against two georgia election workers. the new reporting is next. two gs the new reporting is next. alright. y'all know when they say your home is a reflection of you? well helene found herself in a lamp. no joke. i got a fancy grown up lamp to make me feel like a fancy grown up. mhm. adulting ain't easy. ooh! check this one out. waffles loves her dog bed. we can hardly get her out of it. she's kind of a diva. yes, waffles! living your best life. 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little as $10 for up to a 3-month prescription. ask your healthcare provider about rybelsus® today. two georgia election workers are suing rudy giuliani and the one america news network for their roles in spreading the big lie. ruby freeman and her daughter who worked in fulton county claimed the former president's personal attorney and the network knowingly spread misinformation about they want, including falsehoods that they logged illegal ballots for joe biden in the 2020 election. the women say that these lies have led to harassment and death threats. they sued the far right wing website, the gateway pundit, earlier this month for false statements about them. lawsuits against trump allies and media outlets who have helped to push the big lie are making some headway in court. just over a week ago, a judge declined to dismiss a lawsuit by dominion voting systems against fox news for pushing the big lie there. we're back with kim atkins stohr and tim o'brien. kim, i've said this before, that it's too bad the country doesn't have standing to sue against the big lie, but it is fascinating that some of these businesses and news organizations do face legal exposure. what do you think when you watch these cases? >> yeah, the defamation approach is really interesting because it's one way that we have seen some success in pushing against the big lie, that not only offers the people who are suing the chance to obtain some compensatory damages and even punitive damages against these defendants, but also force them to set the record straight. we've seen, as you mentioned with dominion, some of these lawsuits ended in settlements that included requirement that the same lie be debunked on air the same way that those lies were spread via the same means, and i think that's what the folks here are saying. look, a defamation suit, the one reason why all of us can't sue is in this case, a defamation suit, the plaintiffs have to show that their reputations were harmed. it seems here based on the fact that they've been attacked in the way that they have that that is something that they are likely to prove. and if that is the case, particularly with the news network, and also with giuliani, if the judge would be in a position to issue equitable relief to require this news organization and the defendant giuliani to state that this was false, that they were not a part of this false conspiracy that they claimed them to be. so, it does good not only for them in trying to get some sort of compensation for what happened to them, but for the public who have been told these lies about the election. >> you know, tim, i'm not going to play it again but i played it before. in that call from donald trump to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger that was released the sunday before the tuesday insurrection, donald trump name checks ruby freeman multiple times, and she wasn't just defamed. she was terrorized. i want to read from the reuters reporting about what happened to her. a panicked freeman called 911 after hearing loud banging on her door just before 10:00 p.m. strangers had come the night before too. she begged the dispatcher for assistance. lord jesus, where's the police, she asked, according to the recording obtained by reuters in a records request. i don't know who keeps coming to my door. please help me. after freeman went into hiding, she stayed with friends. they soon asked her to leave, fearing for their own security. the constant threats so terrified the two women that they did not return calls from the fulton county district attorney's office investigators. this is what trump said about freeman. he referred to her by name during that phone call with raffensperger. ant call, he called freeman, quote, a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer and hustler. what trump wrought for these women is not part of the defamation lawsuit. trump is not named in the suit, but it is a by-product of all his media outlets doing his bidding. >> and yet another demonstration of how he abused the power of his office to target an individual citizen. i'm sure prior to that phone call, donald trump had no idea who ruby freeman was so one of the interesting things that could come out of this litigation is to find out who planted ruby freeman's make in his ear, who in georgia and who in the white house convinced them on that phone call to target her. because that phone call remains one of the biggest smoking gun pieces of evidence in any kind of legal battle against trump about trying to overturn the election in georgia more broadly and whether he fomented electoral fraud there and there's a case pursuing that right now down there as we all know. i think -- i think that ruby freeman's case, like these other cases, i think, dominion's suit against fox and rudy giuliani and sidney powell, all are going to hold donald trump and his acolytes to account around the fact pattern. and you know, in the ruling last week, against fox, in the dominion case, the judge specifically said there is ample evidence here that fox knew that it was wrong in what it was airing about electoral fraud and chose to do so anyway. that's the entire ball game in a defamation case. that is evidence of malice. and i think one of the things we're learning from these lawsuits in a time when our institutions have all been threatened, the media, congress, and the judiciary system is with some warts and some hiccups, the judicial system has been a good venue for trying to hold trump to account and i think ruby freeman's case, in an ideal world, it will show that an individual citizen should not be subject to vague threats that become realized at his or her doorstep because the president is trying to commit electoral fraud. >> yeah, i mean, and kim, just to tie it back to the work of the 1/6 committee, which is the most sort of public-face facing investigation into what the big lie from donald trump wrought on our country, an unprecedented attack on the u.s. capitol, reporting in "the new york times" suggests that one of the potential criminal referrals could be a probe into the knowing fraud, the financial crime of peddling the big lie to raise money and funneling money into committees that were set up for other purposes. where do you think that -- i mean, it seems like potentially that could ensnare a much larger group of maybe medium-sized fish. maybe donald trump wasn't involved in that, but it seems like that's where the opportunity to get people to cooperate who don't want to ruin the rest of their lives if they were kind of midlevel campaign finance folks who did that, what do you think about those probes? >> yeah, i'm not sure. i mean, i think i would need to see more exactly what they had to be able to make an assessment of what criminal liability or civil liability that there could be there. while i think it is true that these defamation claims and rightly so have been a way to hold some folks minimally accountable, i would disagree with tim a little bit in that i think by and large, the justice system has not held accountable the people who pushed the big lie, including the biggest example of that being january 6th. we've seen a majority of misdemeanor charges filed against the people who took part in that insurrection and really the rest of it being left to congress to hold people at the top accountable. we saw that effort fail with the impeachment of donald trump. it's hard to believe that was this year, about the insurrection, but that did happen. it seemed after he was acquitted in that impeachment trial, it seemed that there was a real throwing up of the hands and i don't know if the justice department is waiting to see what this commission does before it really digs into what potential criminal liability there is. i think that was a mistake. i was just talking to my sister-in-law today to say that's not the way they did it in watergate. both things happened simultaneously. but i'm not sure that the justice system -- that the court system is working in the way that it should to really get to the bottom of either the big lie or the insurrection and the connections between the two. >> tim, i'll give you a chance to defend your defense of the judicial system and i will just add this. i mean, i think the bar is so low, and i'll just widen the conversation a little bit. for all of its fanfare, the mueller probe did nothing to rein trump in. in fact, the day after robert mueller testified, he made the call to zelensky, so the monster has grown. the lack of accountability isn't just a feature of our politics. it is the impetus for donald trump's continued bad behavior, and i would argue the republican party's complete turn into more of a gang that covers up for its corrupt leader than a functioning political party that tries to govern with a set of principles. where do you see that changing in the future? are you watching these cases as sort of a slow-moving guardrail on the lie or is it sort of to the first point that the bar is so low, nothing else worked. at least rudy giuliani was appropriately laughed out of court. >> i mean, i don't -- i completely agree with kim. i don't think the justice system has held donald trump or most of the people in his orbit accountable up 'til now so i didn't mean to suggest at all that it's been successful and we all should thank the justice system, you know. i thought robert mueller was a complete disappointment, and we saw where the impeachment process led. all i'm saying is, if we have to look for things to hang our hats on in this moment, i'm glad the january 6th committee is there. i'm glad that the georgia attorney general is prosecuting trump for electoral fraud. will it be successful? i don't know. does it, to me, signify that the gop hasn't fully subjugated the judicial system? yes. do i think the judicial system's functioning perfectly? no. and i would point to the supreme court as the biggest evidence of that. i just think right now there could be some raw justice meteed out to the people who promoted the big lie if they continue to have to be put on the stand in a public venue and be held accountable for their lies and for what they did, and i think it's a little hopeful blip in an otherwise, i think, bleak landscape. >> i mean, and just, kim, to button it up, my personal opinions are showing here. i think there's been -- the reason this is all so vibrant on the far right is because there's been zero consequences, zero prices paid. there are billion dollar lawsuits from smartmatic and dominion but nobody's paid a billion dollars. i think lou dobbs got fired but there have been no prices paid for any of the purveyors of the big lie, i guess, except lou dobbs. >> i think that's right. and in particular with fox news, you know, a judgment may be something that's an easy price to pay for the ratings that they're getting in that case so that may be harder. you would need a much bigger judgment, but at least for some of these other news organizations, they had to say, on air, that what they said wasn't true. i hope that that at least reaches some of the people who we have been talking about have been misled by this misinformation. i don't know what will come of january 6th. i too am glad that commission is there and that it is at least making a record that perhaps history will be able to uphold for future generations, but i'm not sure what comes at the end of it. i think we're so divided and there's so many people who bought into the misinformation about whatever will come out of it that it will fall on deaf ears. we'll see. i think it really is up to merrick garland and what he ultimately decides to do and i hope it's the right thing. >> kimberly atkins stohr, tim o'brien, thank you so much for spending time with us today. quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick bs we'll be right back. what if you could see the details of your great-grandparents 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least three bowl games have been scrapped, cutting the season short for universities of virginia, boston college, who both had covid outbreaks on their teams, depleting their rosters. as the new year approaches, the question looms where the omicron surge will force professional teams to reverse back to restrictions. what's happening? >> nothing. it's just chaotic. i was just speaking to someone at the ncaa about two hours ago, and they're already worried about the final fours, you know. >> yeah. >> this thing is so unpredictable. and, you know all of this is about safety and money, balancing safety and money. they honestly, you know -- my friend was saying we're kind of planning as if we're going to have the final four, but we honestly don't know. another friend was head to do a bowl game, an administrator, and he didn't know between now and if the game was going to be held whether they were going to hold it. i think a lot of sentiment of a lot of people, we thought we would be past this. we're now again -- and the only model we have -- you look at the nfl, it's approaching playoffs. the nfl has basically signaled they want to go on, come hell or high water, if they have to sprinkle football games throughout the week. so when you ask, what's going on? in some ways it's as chaotic as it's been. i hate to say it, that's -- you know, it's not a comforting thing, you know, this was sort of our last -- the sports thing was one of the things that got a lot of people through it. if they're cancelling the bowl games and the playoffs, i guess the question is, where are we going forward in terms of everything else? theater, concerts, all those things. have we really progressed? >> yeah, i meme, you look at it this way, and i think the doctors make the wise and important scientific point we're not scientifically where we were in march 2020, because those of us who have taken the vaccines that are available have, you know, two shots and a booster, our my son is finally vaccine for children is approved, so he's vaccinated now. so we're not exactly where we were, but you're talking about sports, which is a psychological blow. i remember in march when the nba canceled all games. there is this psychological thing, this mental health thing, my god, are we going back to mar of 2020, that is real, and we probably adopt talk about it enough. >> yeah. it is real. i thought -- as a matter of fact, maybe the last time we spoke, nicolle, i was thinking that sometimes they sports leagues, you know, we're trying to get everybody vaccinated, right? you still are the culture wars going on. i just thought it would have been so great if the sports leagues could have sent a message. unfortunately the message they were sending is normalcy. >> yeah. >> look, you know, these 30, 40,000 people unmasked at these stadiums, 19,000 people unmasked at arenas. and you're sending these mixed messages, you know? you go to these places, with the concession stands, people are still packed, and you can't do that, you know? you cannot do that. so we're caught in this -- and we're kind of paying the price. you're right. people are double vaccinated, but there are these breakthroughs, but then there's still lots and lots of people attending these games who are not vaccinated, who are unmasked, and, you know, it's terrible. it's worrisome, and, again, i'm looking at the final four, but i'm also looking at the nfl playoffs. teams once again have had they massive breakouts, appeared games have been, you know, put throughout the week. who knows what they're going to do going into the playoffs. again, it's this balanbalancing nicolle, of money and health. unfortunately in this environment, you know, money that is become the highest value, you know? getting through the season hell or high water. you know, that's -- it's a very difficult spot. i'm planning to go to the super bowl, but thinking three, four times about this, you know? >> to your point, things keep switching and, you know, before i left on vacation there were ohm peter in the studio. i'm in here alone now. this is a fast-moving situation for everybody. we're lucky we have access to testing. these athletes all have access to extraordinary testing and medical care, which does put them way, way, way sort of above the rest of us. >> you know, you go back to the aaron rodgers thing -- i hate to bring in all you packers fans, but get in retrospect, it was such an unfortunate sort of thing to have the face of the nfl playing these kind of games with vaccinations, you know, saying -- what was his word -- he was pretending -- >> immunized or something. >> yeah, immunized. i hate to keep say it, it's just a nutty thing. there's no answer, and, you know, like you're in the studio, we're calling it the captain of the ship, you kind of go down with the ship. >> no end in sight, and there's no end in sight for calling you on your thoughts. thank you for commiserating with us, bill rhoden. we're so grateful. hey, ari, i owe you 30 seconds. >> i'm going

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