meanwhile, the january 6th insurrection failed to overturn the 2020 election but next time democracy might not be so lucky. congressman ted lieu joins me to discuss is that. and the school shooting in michigan reignited the debates over the effectiveness of school shooting drills. why they may be doing more harm than good. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. ♪♪ we begin this hour with breaking news we were talking about. as we follow the developments after a devastating series of tornados that ripped across six states in the south and midwest. in kentucky alone a federal emergency has been declared there as seven and rescue operations continue. tragedy, as many as 100 people are feared dead. initial reports suggesting one of the dozens of twisters that touched down could be the longest recorded in u.s. history. earlier this evening president biden expressed his condolences for those affected by this storm. >> jill and i pra for those who lost loved ones and for those who are uncertain of the fate of their loved ones. and the debris that you see scattered all over the hurricane's path. they lost their homes. they lost their businesses. it's a tragedy. it's a tragedy. and we still don't know how many lives are lost or the full extent of the damage. but i want to emphasize what i told all the governors. the federal government will do everything, everything it can possibly do to help. >> all right. so we are going to continue to update you with the very latest developments as they come in on those storms. we are turning to washington, d.c., where new details came to light this week about the january 6th committee's investigation into mark meadows. he served as trump's final chief of staff. he has turned over to the committee 36-page powerpoint presentations titled election fraud foreign interference and options for january 6th. that is the real title of that document, believe it or not. the document called for deploying u.s. marshals to secure ballots which would then have been recounted by national guard troops around the country. meadows as far from the only republican official who seemed open to over throwing our democracy. i have a number for you. 147. eight senators and 139 representatives. that is the number of elected republican lawmakers who actually voted to overturn the election results after, after the riot at the capitol. 147 republicans who saw the violence at the capitol that day in real time and then said, yeah, this is fine. you will remember that event -- the events of january 6th only happened after former president trump fumbled his way through an attempt to overturn the election results. that was trump and his allies last-ditch effort to prevent president biden from becoming president. make no mistake about it. it won't be their last. while trump failed in 2020, the groundwork is being laid for 2024 and beyond right in front of our very eyes today. take georgia, for example. after biden won there the republican-controlled state legislature passed strict new election and voting laws. republicans are now using those laws to take control of county elections, pushing democratic members off the committee and replacing them with republicans. just last november georgia's republican secretary of state refused to back down when trump pressured him to find 11,000 votes. he faces a primary challenge from a trump-backed candidate. so, too, does georgia governor brian kemp. both of the trump-backed candidates, guess what? they are proponents of the big lie. that's just in one state. stuff like this is happening in swing states all over the country, and all the repetition of the big lie from trump, maga media, elected republicans has only gone on to solidify the miss bebelieve among trump's base and majority of republicans that this election was stolen. we have said this before. according to polling from the prri, 68% of republicans, mostly or completely agree that the election was stolen. 68%. that same poll also finding that among the group of people 39% believe, quote, true american patriots might have to resort to violence in order to save our country. so, yes, trump's coup failed in 2020. i mean, how could it not when these guys are running your legal team? but what about the 2028 election, the 2032 election and on and on and on. any about it. how would 2020 have played with a savvier politician, someone smarter than donald trump, somebody who has institution knowledge of american politics, it's likely that the next insurrection and the one after that won't involve a maga mob storming the capitol at all. in the future, republicans might as well put together a powerpoint presentation called "how to overturn an election without really trying" because with the groundwork that they are laying right now, they won't even need to. turning to discuss the insurrection attempts in the past, present and future, senior legal affairs reporter for politico. before we get into some of the developments in the january 6th committee's investigation, i wanted to get your thoughts on what could almost be called an insurrection in plain sight from trump and his allies nationwide. as a legal expert, i'm curious, does it look to you like the stage is being set for republicans to mount stronger legal challenges in 2024 and beyond, that they are doing this in a way that doesn't require a mob storming the capitol because they are doing it behind the scenes in places like georgia and elsewhere? >> yeah, i think some of it i would describe as setting up a situation that is extra legal or extrajudicial. they are trying to put in boards and commissions in places like georgia where republican officeholders, people who are loyal to the republican party, would essentially have control over the election results. and we saw almost an attempt do this during the last election. you can easily see if those boards are filled with people who are willing to take on any kind of ridiculous protest and cancel the election results, the chaos we could have in this country could really be unbelievable. it might not even be necessary for the republicans to turn to court action in order to try to pronounce themselves the winner. >> it seems like they are engaging in a preemptive strike on elections and election outcomes by making sure at any point in the process they have the ability to just toss out votes and determine the winner before it gets to the house of representatives for that certification process. let's talk about january 6th here and the committee. they are now in this possession of a powerpoint from trump's former chief of staff mark meadows. as i mentioned, the document alleges that china had dofrm mized our election systems and includes a plan to have trump declare a national emergency to delay the certification of the election results. this is like third world authoritarianism playbook stuff. it had a snappy catchphrase. now a lawyer for meadows saying his client didn't write the document, it was sent to him. what is your read on this document? it all seems pretty farfetched until you think about what actually is happen the next day. >> right. i mean, it's not surprising that people were circulating these kinds of plans. a version of this powerpoint, something very similar came out around january 5th publicly. we know that republican members of the house had some kind of briefing on it. i believe on january 5th. so what's news here really is that it was also in the email box of mark meadows, the white house chief of staff. his lawyer says, well, maybe he didn't do anything with it or he didn't seriously entertain it. but mark meadows' role in memos that have come out from the justice department looks like it was something would be brought to president trump. president trump would say, hey, send it to meadows, talk to meadows about it, and meadows would try to get someone else in the government to pick up on it. you may remember there was a similar kind of plan that was put forward, discussion of fraud in various states that was sent to the justice department and one of the sort of loyal republican top aides in the justice department sent an email to a colleague anmed owes sent this over describing it as pure insanity. we don't exactly know what meadows was doing with all of these things. i wouldn't be surprised if he was in fact seriously entertaining some things that are perhaps as extreme as this powerpoint administration. >> and to play off of that for a moment, you had "the washington post" reporting today that the person who circulated the power point document is phil up waldron who met with meadows eight to ten times and even briefed members of congress the night before the riots. we here at nbc news have reached out for comment. but what are some of the outstanding questions you still have about him, about this document, any connections he may have to the white house and perhaps even to those beyond the white house who showed up that day on the 6th? >> well, i think that we know that the white house was engaged in a plan to try to delay that elect result college meeting. we heard that voicemail rudy giuliani left for senator tuberville where he says we need to do anything to stall this. there is no question they were trying to implement some plan and it appears that mike pence thwarted it. what's not totally clear is whether the violence that played out on january 6th had some direct connection to people working the white house or it was sort of incidental and whipped up by the comments that president trump made that day. and that's the part where i really will be interested to see what the january 6th committee can come up with in terms of can they make that linkage. was it just public rhetoric, the stuff we have seen on tv, or behind the scenes was there some exhortation or planning for violence. >> all right. we will have to leave it there. we will continue to follow this story closely. thanks for joining us tonight. joining me now is congressman ted lieu, a democratic from california and, obviously, former impeachment manager. congressman, thank you for joining us this evening. let's start with the last point i was talking to joshua about. your reaction to this news from "the washington post" that trump's former chief of staff met with philip waldron possibly as much as, you know, as many as ten times. how do you see meadows here? and waldron in this powerpoint document fitting into the efforts to overturn the election based on what you have seen and learned? >> thank yo for your question. that is a highly disturbing document. it is a roadmap to a coup. i am a member of congress and last term i didn't have "access" to the chief of staff the president of the united states. but somehow people who were planning a coup that had direct access to the chief of staff of the former president of the united states, that is highly disturbing. who knows what mark meadows was thinking, which is why he needs to testify before the january 6th committee, and because he stopped cooperating i believe the house is going to hold him in contempt and we are at a very dangerous time in our democracy where you have people who are planning a coup, who are not being held accountable. >> do you feel that we right now both our democracy and certainly this congress, you know, we are on borrowed time? and i only ask that from the context if we assume what some political analysts are saying, that republicans will take back control of congress next year. i am not making that assumption, there is that analysis based on the way they are redistricting and gerrymandering right now. you have the january 6th committee that is basically -- it essentially will have an expiration date to get their work done. do you think that they will be able to finish with all of the legal speed bumps that trump's people keep throwing down with denying their requests for interviews and cooperation and that we know what might happen with another coup beyond next midterm's elections and presidential elections? >> the goal of the january 6th committee is to finish before the midterms next year. now, because of delays in the federal judiciary and trump enablers figuring out how to take advantage of those delays, it's not clear they will be able to interview all the witnesses they want to interview which is why i think we have invoke the power of inherent contempt. this is a power the supreme court has upheld. it will allow the house of representatives to enforce our own subpoenas. we could pine people, put them in confinement. if you don't enforce congressional subpoenas, at some point they become meaningless. >> congressman, as an impeachment manager during trump's second trial over the events of january 6th, you not only know as much about the insurrection as anyone, but how difficult it can be to get to the bottom of any scheme involving the former president. congresswoman liz cheney tweeted earlier this week the committee has interviewed 300 witnesses, the investigation firing on all cylinders. she is confident. what happens after that? is anyone actually going to be held accountable? should we be focusing not just -- i get that it's important to be looking back at what happened on january 6th to prevent it from happening again, but are we putting enough protections in place to prevent it from happening again? >> that's a great question. so congress doesn't enforce criminal laws. that is the job of the department of justice. that's a job of state and local prosecutors. it's my hope that prosecutors will look at what the january 6th committee turns up and what information the january 6th committee can provide to them. i am a former prosecutor. i worked with these various laws. in georgia it is a state crime to interfere in election or cause someone to interfere in an election. that's also a federal crime. my hope is that prosecutors will look at this information. what congress can do is pass laws to help prevent this in the future. that's why we have to pass the freedom to vote achlkt the house passed that. it's before the senate now. and we are working on legislation to fix the electoral college act so state legislators cannot nullify the popular vote in their state. >> in my open i talked about republicans are basically laying the groundwork to undermine our democracy, possibly for decades to come. are president biden and others who oppose authoritarianism taking these threats seriously? i know you talked about what may be some of the legal challenges that are taking place right now, but, you know, we have talked about 700 cases at the department of justice. most of them so far have been about trespassing. we haven't seen any of them rise to the level of what has been described as an insurrection or a coup on january 6th. >> i do believe that biden administration is taking these issues seriously as are members ever the house of representatives. i also know we do have a 50/50 split in the u.s. senate. there is a filibuster. so we do need every single democratic u.s. senator plus ten republicans to agree on a number of these issues. that's really hard. the alternative is to have an exception to the filibuster for voting rights and other issues core and fundamental to our democracy. i hope that the democrats in the senate will see their way to make that exception to the filibuster. >> all right. congressman ted lieu, greatly appreciate your time this evening. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. and just a quick reminder on january 6th, staying on that for a moment, the third episode of the podcast series "american radical" drops tomorrow. i have been hosting that podcast series and it's a story that hit close home for me. you had days after the january 6th riot at the capitol, i learned that a woman who died there, you see her on the screen, rosanne boyland, was from my hometown. in the latest episode rosanne's sister searches for answers after a puzzling autopsy report and i met with rosanne's old friend to visit the secret places they shared and learned how rosanne's spiral began. you can scan the qr code on your screen to catch up on the first two episodes of "american radical." now keep an eye out for tomorrow's new episode. it's currently the number one podcast on apple podcast, number six on spotify. search and rescue missions underway after a string of deadly tornados swept through six states. hundreds of thousands of americans preparing for a night without power. we will bring you the latest on all of the breaking news on that story and more. plus, we shouldn't be surprised that trump's new media venture would be just as shady as every other part of the trump organization. i will explain that coming up. first, steve is here with the headlines. >> the stories we are watching this hour as you mentioned that horrific string of those tornados. 30 of them reported ripping through the midwest and south late friday night. kentucky was particularly hard hit. more than 70 people were killed there. including dozens who were crushed when a candle factory was toppled by these fierce winds. governor andy beshear declared a state of emergency saturday morning describing the disaster as the deadliest tornado event in the commonwealth's history. the death toll is expected to rise as crews continue their efforts over the next several days. president biden released a statement you calling the storms an unimaginable tragedy and offering the federal government's support to the impacted states. more "ayman" right after this. more "ayman" right after this. ♪ limu emu... & doug ♪ ♪ superpowers from a spider bite? 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>> yeah, it's good to be with you, ayman. it is difficult to predict these very large outbreaks. but there is one basic factor here that we know is at work. these very warm conditions that we saw over the last week over essentially the southern half of this country with temperatures in the 70s and 80s in the southern central states, parts of the east coast as well. those are very unusually warm temperatures for this time of year, and the gulf of mexico is extremely warm right now. and we know that that moisture is streaming into the southern united states. so you have all this warmth. you have all this moisture. and that's one of the major ingredients for these huge outbreaks of tornados. you need a lot of turbulent energy in the atmosphere. that's there in the form of this very warm, moist air. now, you can go into it a little bit more deeply and talk about the fact that you also need twisting in the atmosphere and a big dip in the jet stream gives that to you, and a la nina year like this year when it's cold in the tropical pacific often leads to that jet stream pattern that gives you the twisting. so you have got the moist energy in the atmosphere. you've got the twisting. you put those together and you get these record outbreaks like we've seen in recent years and like we are seeing right now. >> yes, to that point, when you look at this past year, we have seen a staggering number of deadly weather events. what is the pattern telling you, because i think if we just look at a singular event people may not understand the trend or what is happening over a prolonged time. but when you look at the number of devastating weather-related events the past year or so, how much is climate change affecting these weather catastrophies we are seeing play out? >> there are surprises in store when it comes to the impacts of climate change, and one of the surprises we are seeing is this very dramatic increase in extreme weather events. the unprecedented heat waves and drouts and wildfires and soup sfloods. that northwest heat dome we saw by some estimates was a 1 in 20,000 year event. we shouldn't be seeing things like this. accounting for climate, it was a warmup in 1,000 year event. that tells you the models we are using to diagnose the impacts of climate change on this extreme -- these extreme weather events, if anything, are underestimating the impact that climate change is having. some of the ingredients are pretty easy to predict. you make the planet warmer, you are going to get longer and more intense heat waves. you are going to evaporate more moisture into the atmosphere, so there is more moisture to turn into record rainfall events and flooding events. you take the heat and summer drought as the warm air bakes the earth, you get these unprecedented droughts like we've seen. that's all pretty easy to explain. but we're seeing an increase in the persistence and frequency of these events that can't simply be explained by those factors. it requires something more. and it seems to have to do with the way that climate change is changing the jet stream, giving us more of these stalled weather patterns and these very large undulations in the jet stream that give us big high pressures, big low pressures and extreme weather events. the climate models are underestimating the impact that climate change seems to be having on these events. uncertainty suspect our friend. if anything, we have underestimated some of the more detrimental impacts of climate change. >> michael mann, i appreciate your insights. i learn quite lot when i get a chance to talk to you about all this. i greatly appreciate your time this evening, michael. >> thank you, ayman. we will continue to bring you updates throughout the show on the deadly tornados, including the devastating video, the damage left in the wake of the storms. plus, if you can't beat them, join them. trump champion cause to stop the steal. now he is the one stealing from americans. we'll explain. from americans. we'll explain. ♪day to night to morning,♪ ♪keep with me in the moment♪ ♪i'd let you had i known it, why don't you say so?♪ ♪didn't even notice,♪ ♪no punches left to roll with♪ ♪you got to keep me focused♪ before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable night's sleep without frequent heartburn waking her up. now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? 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(music) you're in good hands with allstate. ♪ i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ (music) ♪ i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ several high-profile investigations appear to be closing in on the former president's business dealings including a new york civil vefgts tax investigation of the trump organization. new york is trying to determine whether the company committed fraud in reporting the value of a number of properties. the state's attorney general is seeking to depose trump under oath early next month. donald trump under oath, you've got to imagine that's got to be interesting. >> i have a really good memory. i have a very good memory. i have a great memory. i am blessed with a great memory. one of the great memories of all time. >> all right. remember that deposition from the trump university case? trump claimed his instructors were handpicked by him but in december of 2015 after thousands of students sued him over what they called worthless courses we got this gem. >> james webb. >> i don't remember names. i don't remember the name. >> james -- >> too many years. >> mike casper. >> too many years. >> carrie martin. >> some of the names, by the way, sound familiar, but too many years to know. >> this week we learned that the financial deals of the technology group are under investigation by the s.e.c. this is before his long promised social media network launched. it suggests the venture has raised around $1 billion from lacey of unnamed investors. david, it's good to see you. i guess we really shouldn't be surprised that trump's media venture would be just as shady as every other part of the trump organization, but any doubts about the legitimacy? you got to say went out the window once we learned who would lead the trump media and technology group. of course, it's none other than congressman devin nunes who spent much of the last year or last five years, to be quite frank, pedaling conspiracy theories to protect trump from assorted scandals. at one point saying he is quitting congress now to lead this company despite having zero, and i mean zero, technology experience. your colleagues at mother jones put it this way. the guy who tried to sue a fake twitter cow is going to lead trump's media company. david, how do you expect this one to go? >> well, you know, he entered congress at 29 years old, devin nunes, an had been a farmer before that. this is a supposedly $1 billion company that's going to create a competitor to twitter and facebook, that is going to create a competitor to fox news and oan with its own news work, create a competitor to netflix and amazon with a streaming service and competitor to amazon in terms of hosting. you are going to put a guy in charge ho never did any of this. trump himself has no experience running a company of this nature. it's a long way from selling steaks and vodka and the fraudulent trump university classes to running a massive company. but yet again we see that his business dealings are creating all sorts of potential conflicts of interest. they have raised $1 billion but we don't know where the money is coming from. and if he, you know, he says he is thinking of running. a lot of you in the republican party think he may be the next nominee. so we are going to have a guy who has investors who coming anyone. they could be mob bosses. they could be foreign leaders from saudi arabia, china. they could be fine. but we just don't know because, as of now, they have structured this deal so that people who invest in the shell company that's going to merge with his media company do not have to be identified. he had conflicts of interest going into the presidency out of the last campaign, but this is far greater than that. >> and the funny thing is, nunes was a former chair of the house intelligence committee. remember in 2017 he made this secret visit to the trump white house so he could apparently view classified material the trump team wanted him to see regarding the bogus claim that trump tower had been wiretapped in the run up to the election. this may play fast and loose with government secrets to please trump and he is now going to be leading his media organization. is this, like, you know, is this real life? is this the onion? >> or is it fantasy? you know, he through all the impeachment stuff, he was out there every day with a different conspiracy theory that the ukrainians intervened in the 2016 election, not the russians. something happened with servers. i mean, it was really cuckoo for cocoa puffs type of crazy. and so, you know, i don't invest hundreds of millions of dollars in media ventures. if i were to, ayman, i would want to know the guy or gal in charge knew what they were doing and had some experience here. so right now i'm kind of amazed at anyone putting their money into this unless they think it's kind of a pump and dump situation. they can invest early, the stock price will go up because trump has his base of people who will buy the stuck and they can make a bundle on this fast turnaround on their investment. but anybody who is in this for the long haul, who wants to see this alternative media empire under trump's vestiges, they have to look at the devin nunes pick and say -- >> this is not serious. you can't look at this and be like this a serious organization. listen, you touched on this in the first question. but help us connect the dots here. trump is reportedly $1 billion in debt and he just so happens to get $1 billion from a group of unnamed investors. what are the national security implications of this if this guy decides to run again? >> well, they are tremendous because we don't know -- you know, right now we don't know who the investors are. if that stays the case when he is running for president or if he should actually get back in the white house, who knows who will have their hooks in him, who he will be literally indebted to? we knew before 2016 he owed $300 million to deutsche bank that was being prosecuted by the u.s. justice department and that caused all sorts of issues. we also -- we didn't know, we didn't know -- he kept this a secret in 2016. while running for president he was trying to score this gigantic deal with the moscow tower that would have raised hundreds of millions of dollars for him personally. we saw through the campaign he was nice to vladimir putin. he said some very positive things about vladimir putin. but he didn't tell us that he had asked vladimir putin to help him get this project through. so when you have these business deals enter lace being politics and foreign policy, it is a recipe for very, you know, significant conflicts of interest that could go to compromising national security should he ever be in that position again. >> i got to ask you really quickly about some of the president's associates because interestingly enough congresswoman marjorie taylor greene reportedly invested $50,000 in this trump media venture. she almost certainly lost thousands already. many of the biggest players in the trump world learned this playbook. they raise millions by claiming they are being attacked by the radical left, they need money to defend themselves and then the maga faithful keep sending the checks and small donations. you got trump lawyers like rudy giuliani, sydney powell, they have been using this playbook and steve bannon is the master author of it all. do you expect anyone to face consequences or is this just how maga world operates, the top continue to grift with the fundraising and taking money from the people who donate to their cause for a legal defense funds, for venture capitalist opportunities. who knows what they are doing with all that money? >> trump is the grift that keeps on giving. i am on all those mailing lists because i am a journalists, i get 20, 30 solicitations a day from trump and other republicans, most of them highly misleading. steve scalise, a house republican, i got a solicitation from his campaign today basically saying if i want to support the trump media, the new trump media entity, enterprise, i should donate money here. and it's to his campaign. what does that have to do with trump's media enterprise? absolutely nothing. but they have these mailing lists and they have a universe out of 100,000, 200,000, a couple of million maga types who keep giving money to trump and thesing associated deals and it's just ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching. trump raised, you know, tens of millions of dollars. i did the math at some point. i think it might have been close to 100 million after the last election on the basis of his big lies. money just keeps pouring in. so all these folks, steve bannon, sydney powell, raised $14 million for her so-called efforts to, you know, to -- on election integrity and now people don't know where the money went. it is, i mean, trump's been doing this his whole life. now there is this slipstream behind him floating on the jets of all these folks out there capitalizing on this and i would say that i feel bad for the marks out there, but you give money to donald trump at this point in time, you've got to get what you deserve. it does prove the p.t. barnum saying, right, that there is a sucker born almost every moment. >> david corn, good to see you, my friend. enjoy the rest of your evening. and before we go to break, as we have been throughout the course of this hour, we are continuing to follow the news out of the central u.s. this evening where an outbreak of tornados has left an unimaginable path of destruction in its wake. these before and after pictures of homes and businesses throughout arkansas and kentucky showcase the extensive damage seen across the state. we will continue to bring you all of the developments and news as we get them into our newsroom. plus, in tonight's edition of that's what they said, one shooting shooting survivor is speaking about the trauma she still experiences nine years later. ces nine years later. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ want your clothes to smell freshly washed all day without heavy perfumes? 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[thud] [clunk] [ding] ugh... snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mike's denture. but super poligrip gives him a tight seal. to help block out food particles. so he can enjoy the game. super poligrip. you the latest developments on those tornados that tore through six states overnight. a federal emergency is in police in kentucky as many as 100 are feared dead at this hour. kentucky governor andy beshear says that they are putting all available resources into the ongoing search and rescue operations. >> devastation is unlike anything i have seen in my life, and i have trouble putting it into words. it was safe to travel this morning. i flew to mayfield. my first stop was that candle factory. 110 people working in it at the time the storm hit. they rescued 40. there is at least 15 feet of metal with cars on top of it. barrels of corrosive chemicals that are there. it will be a miracle if anybody else is found alive. >> of course, we will continue to update you with the latest on those devastating storms. meantime, we want to turn to tonight's edition of that's what they said. it has been nearly nine years since the shuk elementary school mass shooing. as one survivor explains, the trauma still haunts many to this day. >> is it terrifying? >> no. i don't think so. it's the way it is, you know. everything must come to an end. the drip finally stops. >> no. there is no other side. this is it. >> all right. so some powerful words there. students across the country who survived massacres like sandy hook and parkland are left with a myriad of mental health problems. the fear it could happen again continues to haunt them every day. take last week when a 15-year-old sophomore opened fire at his michigan high school killing four of his fellow students and injuring seven others. soon after in this video went >> we remember children had to duck and cover in the cold war. what makes these drills so different and so mentally difficult for our children? >> well, first off, we have widespread media coverage of active shooter events. so we may have had duck and cover drills during the cold war because of concerns that there might be a nuclear attack, but we didn't have repeated news coverage that they were occurring. so i think for a lot of children right now this seems very real. and that's part of the reason it's so difficult for them. there also are drills being conducted in ways that i think add to the emotional discretion. there is deception used so the children and staff are made to believe they are real events. then there are simulations they use high-intensity mechanisms, actual sounds of gunfire, actual or simulated weapons, predatory acting by the active shooter, makeup to look like wounds and blood, and i think raising it to that level is just causing unnecessary emotional distress to children because these drills can be distressing for some children, even in the absence of all of those simulations. >> i was going to say i can't imagine as a parent what that must be like to know your child is going through that. you have actually had the tragic experience of actually having to use some of the skills learned in these drills. did you feel more prepared because of that training, or is there any anything that -- and i hate to ask this -- that can prepare you for a real-life active shooter situation? >> yeah, i do not think there is anything that can prepare you for a real-life active shooter. especially in a fight or flight situation. you are not thinking about what the teacher said in case something happens. the students are getting anxiety from continuing to do the drills because it's a real fear that a shooter could just walk in. these drills just reinforce that fear. we should be focusing on proactive policies to stop the shootings. >> no doubt about that. doctor, there was a report that was released by the advocacy group every town for gun safety. i want to go back to what you were talking about, the long-term effects of this. here's what that study found. they found that active shooter drills in schools have been linked with a 39% increase in depression. 42% increase in stress and anxiety and 23% increase in physiological health problems overall. these aren't just the numbers for students. this includes their parents. it includes the teachers that have to live through this. what is the lasting trauma that drills like this can cause? >> well, one thing that we're concerned about is, you know, i cringe every time i hear somebody say this is the new normal. i agree this is not normal. there is nothing normal about children murdering other children and we can't accept it as being inevitable and wait and prepare children for when it occurs. we have to put much more effort into prevention. that's part of the concern, by constantly focusing on these events and the high potential of these events, we may start to convince children this is inevitable and that leads to the distress they saw in the study. so we have to be focusing more on prevention, creating safe school environments, having more behavioral health services, more on threat assessment. i agree that we can do drills in ways that are not as emotionally upsetting and are safer. >> what kind of drills would be less emotionally upsetting and safer because the truth of the matter is, doctor, you know, we are dealing with this reality. our politicians have failed us in preventing -- preventative policies and preventing mass shootings at schools. schools and officials are trying to take matters into their own hands. law enforcement trying to harden schools to try and protect the children, but it's a lose-lose situation. what is the safer way in the absence of our politicians doing what they are supposed to be doing and keeping us safe? >> sure. well, think we can do it the same way we do fire drills. when we do fire drills we tell children that fires are unlikely to occur, we are taking many steps to prevent fires. we tell them what to do if there is a fire or fire drill and practice safe exiting from the school. we don't raise the temperature in the hallway don't put in realistic sound of fire, we don't have people screaming as they are trying to exit w he don't make it frightening. we just tell them this is an unlikely occurrence, but this is a reasonable step we can take. so i think with active shooter drills, first off, we probably shouldn't call them that. we should use another name which isn't as frightening to kids, more with safety. we can tell them we -- we wouldn't start with a live exercise. we would say in this situation that we are doing this drill. what we expect you to do is we are going to turn off the lights, close the blinds, we are going to ask you to stand in part of the classroom that can't be seen as easily from the window or door and tell them that to begin with and then later maybe you actually have them walk to that part of the classroom. but you never have to go through a drill where there is gunshots or where there are people screaming and running through the hallway pretending to be shooters. we don't do that because the only reason you use the high-intensity drills is to try to simulate the event, and that we know will cause distress. so we consider that unethical to do. >> we want to get your final thoughts on this. we are, obviously, focusing a lot on hardening our schools, some have talked about bulletproof backpacks and all kinds you have other stuff, and again it bothers me to talk about it, but are we focusing too much on hardening our schools and not, you know, the preventative measures that need to be taken? what is your thought? what is the best way to make our students safer? >> yeah, i think especially with the politicians not listening to us. you see students and adults especially -- coming out -- and even speaking to school board officials talking about -- policies on the state level about that -- laws and enhanced background checks. i think that's going to be how we stop these school shootings and not the reactive measures of wearing bullet-proof vests or backpacks or arming teachers. that's pretty ridiculous. what we need do is focus on policies that talk about firearms and not just what happens once the shooter enters the school. >> thank you so much. very insightful conversation. i hate we are having it, but we have to so long as our politicians fail us on this issue. thank you. before we go to break, a story we have been following throughout the night. 70 people killed in those deadly tornados. that struck kentucky overnight. unfortunately, that death toll could rise more than 100 as we heard earlier today, governor andy beshear calling the tragedy the most devastating tornado events this their state's history. and president biden approving the governor's request for federal assistance after declaring a state of emergency throughout kentucky. we will have more "ayman" when we come back. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. automotive donor to make-a-wish and meals on wheels. and the largest corporate donor to the aspca and national park foundation. get a new subaru during the share the love event and subaru will donate two hundred and fifty dollars to charity. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's once-monthly injectable cabenuva. cabenuva is the only once-a-month, complete hiv treatment for adults who are undetectable. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by a healthcare provider once a month. hiv pills aren't on my mind. i love being able to pick up and go. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems,...and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. with once-a-month cabenuva, i'm good to go. ask your doctor about once-monthly cabenuva. ♪ my songs know what you did in the dark ♪ ♪ so light 'em up, up, up light 'em up, up, up ♪

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