Transcripts For MSNBC Deadline White House 20240709 : compar

lawfully to receive. it follows news reported this morning by "the washington post" that the committee had been poised to vote to hold meadows in contempt, quote, before the week is over. the news that the committee is planning to hold a vote tomorrow to advance contempt proceedings for another trump official. jeffrey clark who served as acting head of the doj civil division toward the end of trump's presidency who plotted to oust jeffrey rosen. the developments in the house investigation come as a legal case critical to that probe sits before a d.c. court of appeals. this morning, arguments by donald trump's lawyers to keep secret a broad swath of records that could provide insight into his actions the day of the insurrection and days and weeks before their case met with apparent skepticism. judge jackson, quote -- sit the is it the current occupant? when you have a conflict of incumbent, the incumbent gets to decide. judge -- adding we have one president at a time under our constitution. the mounting setbacks for donald trump to obstruct the investigation is where we begin today. jackie is here, "washington post" congressional correspondent and early of the early 202 newsletter. basal, and white house correspondent for pbs news hour, moderator of washington week as well as as msnbc contributor. jackie, i'm going to start with you. meadows has been engaged with investigators in negotiating the terms, turning over documents, but the pace had the committee weighing more aggressive measures against him. is his cooperation a sign that enforcing these subpoenas with threats of contempt is actually working? >> i think it does and that's what we've heard from this committee all along. they've said in the wake of steve bannon's indictment the doj decided to prosecute the criminal contempt case against him earlier this month, that they thought it had achieved its goal of essentially scaring some of these witnesses into cooperating but meadows has been more i would say dignified about the process since the commencement of the investigation, he hired a very rep tabl lawyer to sort of document the steps they've been willing to take in order to show they are different from bannon and clark even, trump's former doj official who seemed willing to help the former president in terms of overturning the results of the election. there is a contrast between people like clark and mark meadows, that's why we're going to see clark be most likely voted to be held in contempt by the committee that will then get referred to the house on wednesday night. we'll see if it makes it out of the house eventually to the doj, where they'll then decide they're going to prosecute that, but this is a good start for the committee when it comes to mark meadows. he is considered very key to the investigation. he was with president trump on january 6th. the committee has said in previous records, requests, and releases that they believe meadows does have some documents that could be insightful and provide new information on the president's decision making and mindset on the day of the insurrection, so we'll see how much they're actually able to obtain from trump's former chief of staff. >> let's talk about those documents. what we do and don't know. we know from previous reporting by "the new york times" that president trump's final weeks in office, he repeatedly pushed the justice department to investigate unfounded conspiracy theories about the 2020 election, portions which were reviewed by "the new york times." mr. meadows was in communication with organizers of the rally. how significant is meadows' testimony likely to be if he's turning over records and will be forced to testify under oath? >> i think the significance will be in the details. yes, he is engaging in the committee and yes, it sounds like he is providing documents, but what are they? what do they say? how revealing are they about the president's state of mind and the state of mind of mark meadows himself? he was a chief of staff to the president. he was in the room all the time. he was there on january 6th by the president's side and as you said, he was in touch with these rallygoers. but we need to figure out what is the level of communication and engagement. we know he is engaging. i've talked to sources, democrats and republicans, and they make this point very clear. steve bannon, a charge for him, a criminal charge for him, he wants to be a martyr and talk about how he's had to face legal consequences for being loyal to president trump. mark meadows is a different person. he wants to have a political future. he wants to possibly be a different sort of crowds. he does not want this on the sources i'm talking to, he is not someone who might be embracing the idea of criminal charges and being criminally convicted of contempt. that to me is telling here. the level of people that are being subpoenaed and sort of what are their personal wishes and personal caplations for how far they'll go in their loyalty to the former president. >> all of this foot dragging has served two purposes. one, to evade responsibility. to never have to answer for what happened and two, to just slow things down, plain and simple. as congressman raskin said, their goal is to obviously run out the clock before the american people get the truth. we're in a race against the clock here. that clock, it is ticking. are democrats moving fast enough? >> you know, it's interesting you ask that because there was a point in time where i wasn't sure they were. i didn't know that we had actually get this kind of -- i didn't think we'd get to this point. to your point earlier, which is an important one. you know, you have someone like steve bannon that's willing to be the martyr, but we're doing mostly with people who want careers in politics still. people that you and i probably don't want to see in government unless they have come before this committee and testified what exactly happened. their credibility is on the line. democracy has been talked about. i am glad to see there's movement. i don't know if this happened in a way that will affect the midterms, but i can say it would be an important talking point for the president, for members of congress going out there, that we were the ones that were standing up for our democracy. for our institutions. the hope is that it doesn't translate. not sure that it will, but it's important that we have the ability to think. >> well, jackie, talking about the midterms, about that messaging, there's the action, that's what we've been talking about, but there's the messaging around this political reporting that outside of the white house, democrats are arguing that biden's willingness to make aggressive attacks against republicans will be key to their success in 2022, quote, they want him to go after republicans for pushing voter restriction laws and embracing former president donald trump's lies of election fraud and revisionist january 6th history. jackie, does that square with your own reporting, a sort of sense from democrats that this is what needs to happen and given that this case needs to be fought in the court of public opinion at the ballot box and in the courtroom, understanding it's all of the above, where do democrats believe that the messaging on this comes into play? >> it's a really interesting game we're watching democrats specifically vulnerable democratic candidates or democrats running in red, swinging areas, are playing at the moment. there is, we're already seeing in realtime, an attempt to distance themselves from president biden. you saw beto o'rourke tell cnn over the weekend i believe it was that he wasn't sure he wanted joe biden to come to texas to campaign with him. but you also see some suggestions on the messaging that they want to see from the president. how he actually can be helpful. that is by playing bad cop, attacking republicans, and calling out a lot of policies that they've been able to implement at the state level that biden hasn't been successful in actually implementing from a federal level. he has not, and the democratic congress has not been able to get a lot of the priorities he campaigned on done. from voting rights to police reform to gun control. so instead, they would like to see and what i'm hearing from members and lawmakers, democratic lawmakers on the hill, him sort of ramp up that rhetoric, which is anathema to the joe biden we saw run on the campaign trial in 2020. this is someone who's credited himself on being able to work with republicans, but we are seeing in realtime the limits of that strategy. especially as we're coming up against the new year. there are other campaign promises skr yet to be fulfilled. >> it strikes me you make this compelling argument for this needing to be a part of the message, but i'm not sure it will. what would it take to get democrats to unify behind this idea that they need to make it clear that the existential threat to our democracy and the project of democrats winning in 2022 is one in the same? >> you know, i talk about this a lot. it's new visions and new voices and new arenas. i say that because i do understand the concern about bringing joe biden into a state like texas, for example. perhaps he's not the best messager. our work is the best message that we could project and promote because the work that mayors across the country, that governors are doing to get people back to work, to get our economy up and running so that we are staying safe, the fact that you have so many amazing young, new mayors across the country. the democrats can say, we did this. we put them there. those are the people we should elevate. let joe biden come in at the end, if you will, but then elevate all these other folks because they're people we would love to see as new standard bearers of the party. we have a new mayor in the city of new york who wants to be the new face of the democratic party. i think the message can be unifying. joe biden doesn't have to lead it, but he certainly has to be there at the end to say this is the party that, this is our party, this is our party. >> jackie, there's both 2022 then the future of democracy writ large and making sure there's accountability for what happens so that it never happens again and all of this is playing out as a d.c. appeals court hears arguments over the former president's appeals to block records. the three judges seem to suggest they're going to side against donald trump when it comes to hundreds of white house records that are now housed at the national archives that he is seeking to block. what could this mean for the committee? >> you're right. a three-judge panel expressed skepticism about the role of the courts in deciding which side of this dispute, whether former president or sitting president ultimately gets to make the call on the release of records, but they seem to be leaning towards the idea that a sitting president makes that decision, which joe biden has said he's in favor of doing. but at the end of the day, regardless of how these judges decide, it's likely to get intervened by the supreme court. this was a three and a half hour hearing that we watched today that really explored the limits of the separations of powers, but the judges didn't exactly say when they were going to be making that decision. they did seem to indicate they did understand the urgency of the task at hand for the panel, that they are trying to collect a ton of information as expeditiously as possible and these documents from the national archives are going to be really important and the panel has expressed as much so far for their ultimate findings to create a comprehensive record of what happened on january 6th. >> the biden administration has of course come out against biden's, former president's executive privilege claims. some feel doj isn't doing enough fast enough to ensure justice is done in the january 6th piece. your sense from behind the scenes inside the administration on whether they believe there is appropriate urgency or if there needs to be more. >> when you talk to white house officials, especially president biden, he's made it clear he wants to be separated from the doj. wants it to go back to an independent entity, something lost in the last four years when the former president was doing all sorts of things. so i think president biden is really trying to do that and trying not to sort of, not be seen as pressuring the doj. that being said, white house officials have been very clear, the president's been very clear, they see january 6th as a monumental moment in history. they see it as a stain on american democracy. the threat as an existential threat. the president's been pretty clear about that. i think it's clear while they don't want to pressure the doj, they feel the doj is being urgent enough. you have a democratic base, much like others have said, that are looking at policing reform, voting reform, looking at all these things that president biden wanted to get done, not get done. and seeing these restrictive voting rights bills go up and looking at the doj saying what more can you do as we're seeing bills and gop lawmakers chip away at democracy in critics' minds. my sense talking to administration officials is that they think that doj is doing what they need to do. >> basil, i wonder how you square these things? then the political reality of having a base that wants more done and wants that more done faster. >> clearly, we've been talking about criminal justice reform and certainly what's happening across the country with voter suppression is something squarely in line with what doj should be working on and that's the one area where joe biden needs to be stronger because you can't be aggressive and strong by playing within somebody else's rules and it feels the republicans have set up these guidelines that democrats are playing within and that's not a winning strategy. you need to reassert the rules of engagement. and i think that's where joe biden can draw that kind of strength but if we don't do that and if we don't do that with the institutions that are sort of that he's in charge of in the bureaucracy, then what other playing field do we have left? that's really the problem here. so yeah, you've got to get more aggressive. doj can lead this charge, but if they don't have the weapons, the tools or don't have the sort of call from on high to do so, then we're going to be having this conversation for years to come and wondering, or perhaps not questioning why democrats have been losing. because we had power but we didn't use it. >> maybe asked me a question about what happened to our democracy. jackie, thank you for starting us off. more on where the congressional investigation into january 6th goes next. we're going to be joined by a committee member on what his initial deal with mark meadows looks like. that's coming up. the new covid variant. the task force echoing the president's message not to panic. how should americans prepare for a potential new stage of this pandemic? and later in the program, reproductive rights under siege. tomorrow, the u.s. supreme court will hear arguments in a case that takes direct aim at the nearly 50-year-old decision of roe v. wade. all those stories and more when we continue right after this. do not go anywhere. we continue right after this do not go anywhere bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ i am robert strickler. i've been involved in communications in the media for 45 years. i've been taking prevagen on a regular basis for at least eight years. for me, the greatest benefit over the years has been that prevagen seems to help me recall things and also think more clearly. and i enthusiastically recommend prevagen. it has helped me an awful lot. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. first psoriasis, then psoriatic arthritis. even walking was tough. i had to do something. i started cosentyx®. cosentyx can help you move, look, and feel better... by treating the multiple symptoms of psoriatic arthritis. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting...get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections some serious... and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms... or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms... develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. watch me. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. where's mom? 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[screams and laughter] yeah! xfinity brought us together after all. get started with xfinity internet and ask about wifi speed fast than a gig. click, call or visit a store today. whether or not this particular variant is going to result in severe disease. we've said it over and over again and it deserves repeating. if you're not vaccinated, get vaccinated. get boostered if you are vaccinated. continue to use the mitigation methods. namely masks. avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces. >> dr. fauci this afternoon on the unknowns of the potential new omicron covid variant. it hasn't been detected here in the u.s. the top doctors are backing the president's message that the variant is a cause for concern, not panic. the cdc has stepped up its advice on booster shots, now saying all u.s. adults should get one. it comes amid new wall street fears about the economic impact of another variant. the new "washington post" reporting that in the last few days, senior white house officials have been working to determine whether more congressional approved funding will be needed to respond to new problems that arise from the variant. let's bring in dr. blackstock. what are you make of the continued messaging today by the biden administration that we don't know the impact on transmission, vaccine efficacy and disease severity. speak to the importance of keeping up mitigation measures that dr. fauci mentioned. >> thanks so much for having me on. yeah, i think you know even if we do not know the properties of this new variant, we still have the tools in the tool box to protect ourselves. so as dr. fauci mentioned, absolutely, people should get vaccinated if they haven't been vaccinated. get boosted if you haven't been boosted, but there are other strategies that we have to really encourage people and state and localities to use so masking was incredibly important to reducing the spread. we need rapid tests available to all u.s. households. it should be free, available, and accessible. we also need for there to be a supportive household for people to be quarantined. there should be groceries and isolation facilities. again, in order to protect ourselves from this new variant, we have the tools. it's a matter of using them and implementing them on an individual and policy basis. >> there's a lot unknown right now for the variant. for the biden administration. jonathan reports the sudden emergence has sparked fears of another devastating wave of the virus. one that could endanger to plans to focus on the white house agenda, efforts to battle inflation. within the walls of the west wing, there was recognition of the political peril along with an implicit recognition that the public may not be willing to stomach the more dramatic measures to combat the new variant even if biden asks them to. what are you hearing from biden officials about how they plan to balance these realities? >> what i'm hearing is that they are in some ways going to follow the science. it's the thing that the president, president biden has said from day one and that means in some ways, evolving different regulations and rules and telling people what the cdc is saying. the president has been very clear in that he doesn't want more lockdowns, more shutdowns. it's clear from the american people there's a sense of fatigue with the pandemic, but also we have to try to keep people safe. we meaning the country. everyone wants to stay safe and not die of this virus. so really the president in some ways is having to having to real fear that this omicron variant, without knowing whether or not it's going to cause more severe, going to end up in the united states sooner than later and whether or not it could at least maybe be less effective when it comes to the vaccines, all those things are sort of leading what they're going to be doing against this virus. when i talk to officials, there is a sense and they repeat this to me. this is why the president really doubled down the idea that he had a lot of experience because he had experience juggling a lot of chaos when he was vice president and when he was in office for three decades and now of course as president of the united states, he's having to deal with the pandemic, an inflation and his legislative agenda. this is a world he somewhat envisioned for himself and the job. that being said, of course it's a heavy load for anyone watching. i think in some ways it really does strike me that democrats are really sort of understanding that this is going to be a very long december with a lot of challenges and complications. >> i want to loop back to the politics of that. before i do, the reason i wanted to talk to you very specifically today is because since the early days of the pandemic, you have been consistent on the point that a winning strategy required censuring equity. until the vaccine was available to everyone, home testing available to everyone, effective, well fitting masks available to everyone, we would not be able to truly deal with this virus. that is true both in a domestic context and global. from that vantage point, what do you want to see? >> right. thank you for asking that. we're still not there yet. i think we almost need, we need a reset in how we're managing this pandemic. the fact is that more people have died this year from covid-19 than last year. and vaccines were rolled out in december. so that tells us we're not doing this right. so what i would like to see is for the biden administration to continue to work with states and governors on their weekly calls. encourage, as much they can, mask mandates. we know that works. i think that we need to also work obviously on the vaccine mandates that are hung up in court, but whatever they can do to push that through, it needs to happen. then from an equity standpoint, at the least, every household should have well fitting masks, rapid tests available to them. because at this time, especially we're in the middle of a delta surge, we have a new variant here. we'll be protected soon, we know that all of those layers are incredibly important. so i feel like we're not even doing the bare minimum for the american people. we are not even just following basic public health measures and a lot of it is because i think there's obviously concern about covid fatigue. there's concern about the economy, but the fact is that we will not round the bend in this pandemic if we don't get cases down and deaths down. we still have people dying. we can't talk about off ramp until we address those public health measures. that's through policies, not js individuals doing the right thing. but what happens on a local, state level. >> i want to add one piece to dr. blackstock's incredible analysis, which is in in addition to covid fatigue, in addition to the economic realities, you have a political party that is actively trying to stop this down. a federal judge blocked the biden administration in ten states to enforce a federal vaccine mandate for healthcare workers. the ruling was in response to rulings in those states, all with a republican ag or governor. axios reports on how they're working to rally their base, quote, florida, iowa, kansas, and tennessee, have changed their unemployment insurance rules to allow workers who were fired or quit over vaccine mandates to receive benefits. nine gop-controlled states have passed laws requiring exceptions for the vaccine mandate, requiring private companies from requiring it all together. at least 20 bills have been introduced to chip away at. so basil, 60 million eligible adults still unvaccinated as a new variant spreads. the republican party that's aligning himself. it's not just covid fatigue they're up against. they're treating the public health crisis like a political opportunity. >> that's exactly right and that's why it's so hard to see daylight at this end of this. i go back to the financial collapse. we could see daylight at the end of that. >> this is really difficult and a doctor could speak to this more so than i am. we'll deal with this in waves and the only way to stop this tide is to enforce these measures. and it does have significant equity. not just in terms of who's getting tested and who's getting the vaccine. but if you think about it, there are a lot of teachers that aren't going to work because they're not vaccinated. there are police officers and firefighters not going to work because they're not being vaccinated and if you have an entire political party doing everything in its power to essentially enable that, then you're going to have significant lapses in a lot of public policy areas. just think about the fact if you have a lot of teachers not going in to teach, how does that affect african american students, what is the disparate effect on them? and whether it's crime, criminal justice or other things like public safety. so mayors have their hands twined to balance all of this in the middle of this sort of national fight that the republicans are engaged with. that's why that fatigue sets in. because it's so hard to see daylight when there's a constant bickering over something that seems like such a simple idea and solution. put your mask on, get vaccinated. >> simple solutions. dr. blackstock, thank you so much for joining us. january 6th committee treading cautiously. one of the committee members joins us on the other side of the break. stay with us. the break. stay with us feel stuck with credit card debt? move to sofi and feel what it's like to get your money right. ♪ move your high-interest debt to a sofi personal loan. you could save with low rates and no fees. earn $10 just for viewing your rate and get your money right. ♪ at progressive, we love your pets as much as you do, like this guy in a hat. that's why progressive car insurance covers your pets for up to $1,000 if they're ever in a car accident with you. this mini majorette's gonna march her way right into your heart. -i'm sorry. can we stop? 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[ mittens squeaking ] wondering what actually goes into your multi-vitamin. at new chapter. its innovation organic ingredients and fermentation. fermentation? yes, formulated to help your body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness well done. emergency planning for kids. we can't predict when an emergency will happen. so that's why it's important to make a plan with your parents. here are a few tips to stay safe. know how to get in touch with your family. write down phone numbers for your parents, siblings and neighbors. pick a place to meet your family if you are not together and can't go home. remind your parents to pack an emergency supply kit. making a plan might feel like homework, but it will help you and your family stay safe during an emergency. we are back with more on the breaking news that mark meadows has reached a deal with the house select committee investigating january 6th. the committee had been weighing a criminal contempt referral for meadows. joining us now, a member of the house select committee. congressman, thank you so much for being with us. you have said that meadows could have a minor claim to executive privilege. what do you think he can bring? what do you think he can reveal that is not privilege worthy? >> there's plenty of questions that we'll have for mr. meadows and i think this is a good step. he's been engaged through his attorney, in talking with the committee staff and team. he's produced documents already. so these are all positive steps and we would expect that out of someone who receives a lawful subpoena out of the work that the committee's doing. >> do you expect his cooperation to move jeffrey clark? >> i can't speak to jeffrey clark. we will take that up in the business committee tomorrow based on what mr. clark has done thus far. so there are suggestions that the house, contempt referral to the department of justice. he has been so far unwilling to engage in any fruitful discussions and claimed both executive privilege and privilege when he was in front of us. so this is something that obviously we haven't seen and would expect a better level of engagement from someone who's a former department of justice official. >> when it comes to the d.c. court of appeals before the former president's lawyers to keep secret records that could provide insight into his actions on the day of the insurrection, the lead up to the insurrection, those arguments i'm sure you heard today, met with skepticism by the three presiding judges. their comments. who decides when it is in the best interest of the united states to disclose presidential records? the current occupant or former? we have a conflict of incumbent or former. another one. we have one president at a time under our constitution. do you expect hearing all of that, the courts to rule in the committee's favor in this lawsuit? >> we do. we think that it was a very thoughtful brief that the staff put together and argued incredibly well so we expect a positive result. our goal is to produce a document, gather as much information as possible in those documents from the national archives that will help tell the story of january 5th and january 6th, rallies and insurrection. assault on democracy. the more information, the better. that's why these documents are so important. >> i appreciate that the goal is to produce those documents, but if i'm understanding correctly, the goal is also to provide an accurate rendering of what happened so that there can be accountability for both what happened and to set the stage so this can never happen again. the concern is that given the partisanship in congress, do you expect your republican colleagues to be able to take this document and read it as an accurate rendering, to take it as a collection of facts and from there to actually engage in the conversation that is necessary to hold people accountable both retroactively and proactively. >> if this is done right, then the american people will ultimately get to see that document and make those decisions as well. obviously, given some of the antics we've seen from colleagues on the other side of the aisle, you just never know what their behavior is going to be day-to-day. we're carrying forward in a very thoughtful way with this committee not in a bipartisan way, but in a nonpartisan way. vice chair cheney and adam kinsinger and chairman thompson guiding what we're going has been incredibly helpful and thoughtful to the end result, which is as you high lighted. making sure this never happens again and telling the full and complete story. >> congressman, thank you so much for your time. angry and dangerous rhetoric being thrown around by colleagues on the hill appears to be having an impact outside the halls of congress as well. we're going to talk about that, next. ell. we're going to talk about that, next like many people with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease, i was there. be right back. but my symptoms were keeping me from where i needed to be. so i talked to my doctor and learned humira is the #1 prescribed biologic for people with uc or crohn's disease. and humira helps people achieve remission that can last, so you can experience few or no symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. be there for you and them. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, remission is possible. learn how abbvie could help you save on humira. ♪ ♪ cases of anxiety in young adults are rising as experts warn of the effects on well-being caused by the pandemic. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ i booked our hotel on kayak. it's flexible if we need to cancel. cancel. i haven't left the house in a year. nothing will stop me from vacation. no canceling. flexible cancellation. kayak. search one and done. it's a thirteen-hour flight, that's not a weekend trip. flexible cancellation. fifteen minutes until we board. oh yeah, we gotta take off. you downloaded the td ameritrade mobile app so you can quickly check the markets? 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where does it leave the american people? what recourse do we have? >> i mean, it's the key question of this generation, of this moment in politics and this moment in america. we have a political party that despite sort of policy differences are democrats, there's also this sort of underlying current of violence and of fear that lawmakers are sort of allowing to grow and grow and grow. i don't know if this is breaking into the mainstream just right now. let's remember that former president trump, that he encouraged people to punch people in the face at his rallies. people got so excited about the idea of this macho guy that was going to fight people to get into the white house. people were excited about the idea of his rhetoric, of not tweeting people nicely, quote unquote, and banging their heads into police vehicles when they were getting arrested. so now of course you have this bubbling up into congress where you have lawmakers tweeting animated videos of killing other lawmakers. i don't think i ever thought i would be saying that sentence outloud and it not be a hieber hyperbolic sentence. we are in this distopia as americans are trying to figure out the next chapter. it doesn't seem like it's going to get any better. based on my reporting and talking to people, where it goes next. >> basil. i think she gets it right there. there are a lot of people who thought okay, this is donald trump. as soon as donald trump goes away, problem's going to be solved. this from "the new york times," menace enters the republican mainstream, quote, even with the former president largely out of the public eye, the republican acceptance of violence has only spread. polling indicates that 30% of republicans and 40% of people who most trust far right news sources believe that true patriots may have to resort to violence to quote, save the country. such views routinely expressed in war like or revolutionary terms are often intertwined with evangelical religious ferver as the most animated republican voters increasingly see in themselves as participants in a struggle if not a kind of holy war to preserve their idea of american culture. if we are not honest about what is at the core of this, then we cannot get to the place where we can actually begin to fix it. >> that's exactly right. white supremacy and attitudes are at the heart of this. we need to start thinking and talking seriously as a country about domestic terrorism. we don't like to talk about that. we like to say it, sweep it under the rug. never happen here, but it is happening here. i have to say i was an african american man and talking to black and latino friends when donald trump was running, we said he's going to light a match that's going to be very difficult to extinguish. i've been on this program talking about while he was president and even during the campaign, the way his rhetoric, that toxic masculinity that he used as part of his rhetoric to sort of engage the crowd and fire up his crowd and we did see moments where his supporters at these rallies were punching people who came through and being taken out. that violence doesn't stop and start on a dime. it grows, it germinates, then it me -- they're not prepared to handle and to her point as well, i don't know, i don't see a way out. i don't know how we put a cap on this except to say that you know, we have to do our best to elect the better people to office. mostly talking about folks on the republican side. that said, the concern that i have is that this kind of terrorism keeps good people from going into public service. all of those folks that we say, you'd be good to run for office, will decide i don't want this headache. that is going to be the shame that we just can't even recruit people to get into positions of power to make the kind of change that we're looking for. f change that we're looking for the gop conference and mace said, i have time after time condemned my colleagues on both sides of the aisle for racist tropes and remarks that i find zbis disgusting and this is -- and i bring this up to ask, is there room in this republican party for someone like representative mace who's willing to do just the bare minimum of calling racism race ichlg? >> it's a great question and i think, you know, as i was listening to sort of representative mace and s representative marjorie taylor greene go back and forth, i had to almost remind myself, we're talking about whether or not it's okay to insinuate, it seems, that your muslim colleague could be a threat to you. that's the argument that they're having. i mean, that is obviously wrong, right? it's obviously stereotyping and criminalizing someone who does not deserve that. and i think that we have a real question about w whether or not the gop can have room for people who say, that even goes a little too far when g it comes to sortf discriminating against people. we're not sure. i don't think reporters and people who are looking at the gop, we're not sure where that party ends up. >> yes, it is the big open question. basil, yamiche, thank you so much. up next, breaking news involving another school shooting. much more after this. ing anothel shooting much more after this ? yeah! we want to keep it the way it always was, right? 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[uplifting music playing] ♪ i had a dream that someday ♪ ♪ i would just fly, fly away ♪ (vo) what's better than giving a better phone this holiday season? oh! i know, i know. giving a better phone on a better network. how much better? ranked #1 in network reliability 16 times in a row better. the most awarded for network quality a whopping 27 times by j.d. power better. yeah. and verizon is ranked #1 in customer satisfaction for small business wireless service better. this round's on me. holiday better with 5g from america's most reliable network. because everyone deserves better. we are following the breaking news of a shooting at a high school in oxford, michigan, outside of detroit. three people have been killed, and all are believed to be students. a 15-year-old suspect, a sophomore at the school, has been arrested. nbc news correspondent mora barrett is monitoring for us. what more do we know about what happened today? >> reporter: well, this all unfolded incredibly quickly this afternoon. 911 calls, more than 100 of them coming into police dispatch around 1:00 p.m. this afternoon, and then police say they were able to arrest the shooter within five minutes of receiving those calls. based on shell casings and the situation that they are currently investigating, they estimate that the shooter fired about 15 to 20 shots, like you said, we now know three people have died, all of them believed to be students, and six people are injured. they were all transferred to local area hospitals for their injuries but we don't know how severe the injuries are right now. one of those injured believed to be a teacher, the rest of them students. police, as we know right now, are conducting secondary and tertiary searches of the high school to make sure that there aren't any more victims left behind and we should be getting an update from the sheriff's office here probably within the next minute, couple of minutes. we're expecting -- you know, we don't know a lot about the shooter himself. we know it's a 15-year-old sophomore student at the high school there in oxford, but he invoked his right not to speak with police. he asked for a lawyer, and the police say that he has not made any statements indicating any sort of motive, so obviously a very troubling situation, these teenagers very much affected this afternoon. a local garden center has helped with evacuations after the high school pulled them out and parents are now able to pick their students up this afternoon, alicia. >> absolutely horrible. nbc's maura barrett, thank you. the next hour of "deadline white house" with jason johnson starts right after this quick break. its right after this quick break ve e risk and reward, i see one element securing portfolios, time after time. gold. your strategic advantage. exploring the heart of historic europe with viking, you'll get closer to iconic landmarks, to local life and legendary treasures as you sail onboard our patented, award-winning viking longships. you'll enjoy many extras, including wi-fi, cultural enrichment from ship to shore and engaging excursions. viking - voted number one river cruise line by condé nast readers. learn more at viking.com. one of my favorite supplements is qunol turmeric. turmeric helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. unlike regular turmeric supplements qunol's superior absorption helps me get the full benefits of turmeric. the brand i trust is qunol. earn about covid-19, the more questions we have. the biggest question now, what's next? what will covid bring in six months, a year? if you're feeling anxious about the future, you're not alone. calhope offers free covid-19 emotional support. call 833-317-4673, or live chat at calhope.org today. ♪♪ i called around to a few abortion clinics to terminate the pregnancy, and the prices i was quoted felt -- i mean, just -- they were ridiculous. i could not save up enough money if i tried. i was essentially forced to carry that pregnancy to term, even though i didn't want to. being put into poverty was one of my fears and that definitely happened. our lights were off because i needed to redistribute money within the household and make sure the rent is paid so we're not evicted. >> hi, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, and i'm jason johnson in for nicole wallace. the less spoken about consequences of being denied an abortion, the physical, mental, and financial weight of it. accounts like you just heard from brittany, a mother in chicago who was essentially forced to carry her pregnancy to term and pushed into poverty may sadly become a more common occurrence as a woman's right to choose in this country is under siege. tomorrow, the supreme court begins to hear arguments in a case that takes direct aim at the nearly 50-year-old decision of roe vs. wade, which said a woman's right to an abortion, up until fetal viability, is protected by the u.s. constitution. the case the high court will hear, dobbs vs. jackson women's health organization, essentially outlaws abortion after 15 weeks, much sooner than what is established in roe. noting this case is significant, "the new york times" describes it as, quote, setting the stage for what could be the most consequential abortion rights ruling in decades. the "times" adds, quote, if the justices were to approve the law, roe's viability standard would no longer be the law of the land, unquote. the clinic at the center of this case is the only abortion clinic left in mississippi, the only abortion clinic left in mississippi. and another piece in the "times" explores the challenges currently faced by the doctors and patients there. from that reporting, quote, although the jackson clinic's survival hangs in the balance, it has never been busier. in recent months, it has expanded its hours of operation from three days a week to five. the phone rings constantly with people trying to make appointments. calling from across mississippi and more and more from texas, an influx attributed to the new law there that is the most restrictive in the country. the clinic now sees about 300 women a month. quote, our patient load is almost doubled, said shannon brewer, the clinic's director. we are adjusting, she added. we just know it's got to be done. but the impact of the supreme court ruling will be felt way beyond that one clinic. a dozen states have trigger laws in place that would immediately ban abortions if roe is overturned. abortion rights in america hanging in the balance is where we start this hour. joining us now, cecile richards, co-chair of the american bridge and former president of planned parenthood. also with us, former congresswoman donna edwards and congresswoman barbara lee of california, co-chair of the house democrat steering and policy committee. congresswoman, i will begin with you. what's at stake here? like, take us to the state-by-state story. what happens if the supreme court ends roe vs. wade as we know it? how does that impact different kinds of states and what would congress be able to do, if anything, about it? >> thanks a million, jason, for having us this evening. first, it will really deny people's right to access an abortion, and it begins to actually erode and really take away and end roe vs. wade. people have a right to make their own healthcare decisions. people have a right to make their decisions as it relates to having an abortion or not, and so what we're trying to do in congress, and we passed in the house the women's health protection act, which would put into law, finally, abortion access and also the right to a safe and legal abortion. you know, this is an issue also about equity and barriers. low-income women, primarily women of color, people of color, are denied access to the full range of reproductive healthcare, including abortions, and so what we're seeing now is in states where people can't afford to exercise their constitutional right, we see them not being able to travel because they don't have the money or for whatever reason, this is an issue around racism. it's an issue of equity, and we have to fight to make sure that we pass the women's health protection act. it's in the senate now, and so i hope everyone will call their senators to make sure that they move forward and pass this bill, because this is a matter of life and death for so many people. >> cecile, i want to play you some sound from a virtual event in congress yesterday where they were talking about what the potential impact of this new supreme court hearing and potential ruling could be, and i want to get your thoughts on the other side. >> this infringement on women's rights, on our privacy, on the attempt to have state control of our personal health really is what we would see in an authoritarian state. it's not what we would expect in new hampshire. i think if you want to see a revolution, go ahead, outlaw roe v. wade and see what the response is of the public, particularly young people. >> cecile, what are your thoughts about that? do you think this revolution is possible and how serious is this? >> well, i couldn't agree with the senator more. this is anti-democratic. it's anti-american. and as congresswoman lee said, there is a way to address this, and that is through federal legislation. i would note that in the -- when this was passed in the house of representatives, and i really thank her for her leadership, not a single republican member of congress voted to protect and support abortion access, and that's really what we're looking at here is the republican party has been on -- has been on an effort for the last several years to outlaw abortion, be and what's happened now after they put three members on to the supreme court in a highly partisan way under donald trump, we now have a -- we now have a supreme court that has refused to act on a texas abortion ban that has now been in effect for nearly three months and literally this court has done nothing. this is the concern about this is widespread. it's far beyond mississippi. it's far beyond texas. because people around the country are realizing this could happen anywhere, and it could happen everywhere. but make no mistake about it, this is a right that people everywhere have regardless of political party. what i don't think the republican party understands is that with an 80% of americans believe that the people who should make decisions about pregnancy are people who are pregnant, not the federal government, not politicians, and so the opportunity, you know, in the voting booth and in the midterm elections to right these wrongs is going to be incredibly important. i'm so glad that this story is being covered because literally the rights that we have had in this country for nearly 50 years are at stake before the supreme court. >> donna, now, i'm -- i have to be my usual somewhat cynical self. i hear that if the supreme court outlaws roe vs. wade or makes it essentially ineffective as law, that there will be a revolution at the polling place, that this will galvanize men and women, especially women, especially white women to vote against the republican party. i don't believe it. the republicans have been singing this same song in a very serious way, certainly the last four years but also the last 20. it doesn't seem to have had much of an impact on voting. looking at when this case could do, do you believe that if the supreme court ends roe vs. wade that we'll actually see an impact on that in a negative way for conservatives at the ballot box next year? >> well, jason, here's what we do know is that an overwhelming majority of the american people believe that women should have a right to make a decision about an abortion because it's their body and their right. and we know that is true across demographic groups. we know that it is true no matter the age and income levels, and so i do think that over generations, there has never been a greater threat to abortion rights and access to abortion than there is right now. so, does it have the potential to galvanize generations, legions of younger people for whom abortion rights and the access to abortion has been part of their lives for their entire reproductive lives? and so, i think that there's a potential, but i think it requires leadership, and it requires us to galvanize the american public and make sure that they understand what's been placed at stake, and i thank the leadership of congresswoman lee and democrats in the house for standing up for women's access to abortion, and the senate needs to act as well. i think that we are at a stage right now where there is such a threat to democratic governance, and that includes the right -- the constitutionally protected right to make decisions about whether or not to have an abortion, and that is under threat and laws across the country and states will fall as a result of overturning roe vs. wade. >> congresswoman lee, i want to play some audio from you talking about the importance and significance of being able to get access to free and affordable abortions and get your thoughts on the other side. >> i was one of the lucky ones, madam chair. a lot of girls and women in my generation didn't make it. they died from unsafe abortions. in the 1960s, unsafe, septic abortions were the primary killer, primary killer of african american women. >> congresswoman, you had to leave the country to get an abortion, so you have lived what it was like in this country when abortion was not a part of women's healthcare that they could get access to. do you think things could get that dire that quickly in this country again if the supreme court does what we all expect them to try to do with the current 6-3 rulings in favor of conservatives? >> jason, you know, people make these grueling decisions. this was a terrible, hard, heart-wrenching decision that i had to make at age 16. and let me tell you, this was way before roe vs. wade. and what i worry about, and what i think everyone is concerned about is a return to unsafe abortions, and so what we're fighting for is to make abortions safe, to make them legal, to make them accessible, and to make sure that everyone, regardless of their income, regardless of their background, have access to safe and legal abortions. and that's why we're working, and i'm really proud to say that we have the most pro-choice caucus, democratic caucus ever. i co-chair the pro-choice caucus. congresswoman judy chu led with her bill, the women's health protection act. so we are clear that -- and what donna said about young people, i think we're going to see a turnout at the polls because young people, this is all young people know. they don't know what it was like when i was growing up and before roe vs. wade. and people were dying. women were dying behind unsafe abortions, and we can't go back there, because as i said earlier, this is a matter of life and death, and it's a personal decision. it's a decision that, whether you agree or disagree with abortions, this is a person's right to make their own decisions about their own healthcare and their own lives. >> cecile, one of the things that concerns me and concerns a lot of people out there is that these restrictive abortion laws, and what the supreme court might do, has a disproportionate impact on poor women and women of color. non-hispanic black women receive 38.4% of abortions. far higher than the 13.4% share of the u.s. population that black people actually make up. non-hispanic whites receive 33%, hispanic women receive 21%. white women have the lowest rate of abortions. when we see these kinds of numbers, is it also fair to say that the supreme court is attacking, again, shockingly or potentially attacking women of color and poor women because this seems to be a resource that black and latina women use a lot more than white women. >> i think we have to go back to the point and congresswoman lee's story is so important. abortion is always going to exist. it's a question of simply whether it's going to be safe and legal and whether it's going to be available to everyone. believe me, when abortion is outlawed, if it is by this supreme court, wealthy women in this country will still be able to get an abortion because they'll be able to get on a plane, go somewhere, take care of -- just as they did before roe. this is going to disproportionately fall on women with low incomes, young people. we're already hearing stories of young people in texas having literally nowhere to turn. women of color. women who work in minimum wage jobs where they can't take off five days and drive to another state and receive access to safe and legal abortions, so of course, it's going to have a detrimental effect on people who already have the least access to healthcare. but that's really the irony, jason, about all of this, and my colleagues on this panel know this very well. my home state of texas, where now essentially, abortion -- access to safe and legal abortion practically does not exist, it is a state with some of the worst access to healthcare in the country, the worst rates of maternal mortality for black women in the country, refusing -- continually refusing to expand medicaid access for people, so i think what this case is about, it's not simply about access to safe and legal abortion. it's about the ability to make your decision about your pregnancy and whether to have -- whether to continue a pregnancy or not, the cruelty of all of these kinds of bills, they do nothing to help people make a free decision about what to do about their pregnancy, and that includes bringing a child into this world who can have clean drinking water, good public schools, a safe neighborhood, and the rest. and it's part of a much bigger tapestry. i'm grateful to congresswoman lee for all of her fight for reproductive justice, but this supreme court and these kinds of laws, they are -- they penalize the people who have the least access to options already in this country and they are cruel, and i hope to goodness that this supreme court is listening to women. >> donna, i want to close with this because i think this is really important. it's been so interesting for me and i'm sure everybody on this panel to observe that conservatives over the last year and a half of this global pandemic have suddenly tried to coopt this language of "my body, my choice." i don't have to wear a mask when i go into whole foods, and yet they seem to not care about that when people were saying that for the previous 30 years when it comes to my body, my choice, and people having access to abortion. donna, do you think, again, rhetorically, that that hypocrisy is going to glow up in any republican's face? will it blow up in the integrity of the supreme court or is this such a power grab at this point that it won't matter? >> i don't know. i mean, i think none of us is surprised by the hypocrisy anymore, but what really is clear is that we know that abortion rights and access to abortion is supported by an overwhelming majority of american people, and that they are going to care about that when they show up in november for elections because it might be the first time that we have had in nearly 50 years where women will not have access to the kind of reproductive healthcare that they need an access to abortion, so i don't want to worry about the hypocrisy. i want to worry about making sure that we educate the american people about what's at stake and that they respond accordingly. >> cecile richards, donna edwards, and congresswoman barbara lee, thank you. this is a powerhouse panel. thank you for starting us off this hour. when we return, why the far right is making noise about trump's other big lie that the russian investigation was a hoax. plus, speaking of russia, guess who's behind the texas secession movement which ted cruz is warming up to? turns out it's part of the kremlin's ongoing active measures campaigns. and later the prize-winning reporter behind the brand-new book on trump's fleecing of america. don't go anywhere. eecing of america. don't go anywhere. i suffered with psoriasis for so long. i felt gross. people were afraid i was contagious. i was covered from head to toe. i was afraid to show my skin. after i started cosentyx i wasn't covered anymore. four years clear. five years now. i just look and feel better. see me. real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections—some serious— and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. five years is just crazy. see me. learn more at cosentyx.com. dad are you sure you're up to host? 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it was to silence that question that the outgoing trump administration appointed a special counsel of its own to investigate its investigators. jon durham has now issued three at the same times, all for lying to the fbi about various as pekts of the steele dossier. it remains fact that russian hackers and spies helped his campaign. it remains fact that the trump campaign welcomed the help. it remains fact that trump's campaign chairman saw to share proprietary campaign information with a person whom the senate report identified as a russian intelligence officer. it remains fact that trump hoped to score a huge payday in russia even as he ran for president. it remains fact that trump and those around him lied and lied and lied and lied again about their connections to russia. joining us now, former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul and rick stengel, a former top state department official and member of the biden transition team. lucky for us, both are msnbc contributors. so rick, i want to start with you and i want to tread lightly on this but i think this is important. this group of anti-anti-trump supporters, the way i define them, a lot of them, i saw as part of the sort of former online left, right? the people who, they may have not liked trump, but they disliked the democratic party and they disliked the media so much that even with their own failings, the sort of crystal balls, those sorts of people, they wanted to justify anything to attack the mainstream press or attack the democratic party as a whole, and they are part of these attacks on what are the real facts of the steele dossier and what happened in the russia investigation. my question for you, rick, is, how do we combat the sort of disinformation not just from your far-right people like, you know, anybody on fox, but also from the former fake lefties who have now decided that attacking anything that has to do with trump and russia is another part for them to achieve the grand revolution that we knew they were never going to get? >> that's complicated, jason. here's what i would say, though, because i think what this comes down to at the moment is the fact that people are questioning the steele dossier, and they have every right no question the steele dossier. but the steele dossier had nothing to do with russia interfering in our election and trump cooperating with russia. in fact, i think it makes sense to divide it into those two categories. the first one is absolutely indisputable. russia interfered in our election. they didn't meddle in our election. that's what your grandmother does in the kitchen. they interfered. they poisoned. they tried to disrupt our election and they are continuing to try to make people not trust american election. the question that mueller looked at is, was trump cooperating in a kind of conspiratorial way with russia's efforts? and that is still not completely clear. and mueller said that trump, you know, cooperated but whether it was witting or unwitting, i don't know. but a lot of this comes down to the fact that people are using the steele dossier as a kind of stocking horse to try to question everything else, which is, by the way, exactly what putin does. he takes a small lie and then he tries to blow up the larger truth and that's what trump is trying to do. >> so, rick, i want to follow up on this because i think this is key. we're not just seeing that with the steele dossier and the trump investigation, because again, as we said at the beginning of this show, what trump was doing and the relationships that his campaign had with russia would have made it impossible for anybody in lower levels of government to get a security clearance. like, let's be clear. what he was doing was unethical, you usually can't get away with it, he only managed to get away with it because he managed to get himself elected president of the united states. but we're seeing this former attitude from the fake lefties and far right with january 6th where they find one thing that is incorrect or misreported and now suddenly all of january 6th was just a whole bunch of people being upset as opposed to a white nationalist attempt to overthrow the government. is this all sort of part of the same disinformation campaign or are these simply people who are incapable of understanding basic facts because they desperately want a new reality that serves their purposes? >> yeah, jason, i don't even -- i don't know the answer to that. and i find it so dispiriting that people are questioning the fact that there was an attempted insurrection of the united states on january 6th. that's just apparent. i mean, some of this just goes back to human nature, something we've been dealing with for a long time, which is that people don't really pay attention to politics. not quite the way that we do. and then someone can find one tiny little bit of exonerating evidence about january 6th and people who haven't read all the issues, haven't read all the stories, who haven't watched all the video, they go, well, maybe that's plausible, and that's what the disinformationists count on. that's what the trumpist, you know, useful idiots count on, which is the fact that people are not paying attention, and that you can call out one particular thing, one small detail, and it makes them question the larger truth. that's what we're looking at all the time. >> michael, i want to continue with this. i want to play you some audio from "morning joe" earlier today about the proper perspective with which to have on things like january 6th and russia and understand how we should really be discussing it in america and get your thoughts on the other side. >> what we needed all along to be looking for was the question, why did russia do this extraordinary thing in 2016? raurk has an economy the side of italy. everybody assumed that hillary clinton would probably win. what a terrible risk they ran in 2016 to help someone who was probably going to lose. why would they do that? why did they care so much? that was the mystery, and the answer was not going to be found by prosecuting crimes. the answer is going to be found through counterintelligence. >> now, michael, i will say up front, i don't know that i believe that russia had a material impact on the end result of the election. there are some polling numbers that i saw, things might have been moving in trump's way to win the electoral college. but to deny that they were trying to do something to america that quite frankly america has done around the world for a century, seems incredibly naive to me. so, my question is, you know, do you agree with sort of david frum where it's like, why would they take this risk? and then also do you think that what the russians attempted to do in 2016, do you think it actually had a material impact on how the election played out? >> well, i'm glad you're disaggregating those two thoughts, right? to emphasize what rick just said, there is overwhelming evidence that russia intervened in our election in 2016. by the way, in 2020 as well. we'll come back to that maybe later. but in 2016, in a major way, they violated our sovereignty. let's use a little stronger language, right? what is the most sovereign thing we do as americans? one of them is we choose our leaders independent of outside actors and in this case, vladimir putin invested big resources to try to undermine the free and fairness of our election. he stole data from one of the campaigns. let's use that verb. he stole data, intellectual property, from the clinton campaign and then leaked it to wikileaks as a way to undermine one of the candidates. he used his media efforts, rt, sputnik, when you tweet out, #crookedhillary, you don't need to have a ph.d. in political science or russian studies to understand what they're trying to do. so, that part is -- that's overwhelming. we have the mueller report. we have the senate investigations. by the way, we academics have also written hundreds of pages on that fact. the second piece is harder, and you're right to disaggregate that. so, that's that -- that's the cause was that the russians were trying to influence the election. i do not think we have the scientific data to say that that independent factor of the russian intervention caused trump to win. but the fact that they were trying, i think, is overwhelming. >> right. it's like if i'm trying to break into your car, it's still a problem, even if i don't manage to get the ignition started. i want to follow up with this very quickly. where do you think -- what do you think the motivation -- because again, we understand the motivation of republicans and trump supporters. where do you think the anti-anti-trump people's motivations come from? some of them might be independent. some of them might be former. some of them, again, cosplay as liberals online. what do you think their motivation is in trying to debunk the impact of these investigations? >> that's a big, hard question. you keep asking it. you didn't get an answer from rick so you asked me, right? >> yeah. >> you know, i'm more -- i can explain putin. i mean, putin wanted to undermine our democracy. he didn't like secretary clinton. trump was going to do good things for him. it was very rational for putin to support president trump. with respect to that category of people, you know, i think they just don't trust the american liberal establishment. i've been attacked by these people frequently. and so, the enemy of the enemy is my friend, and i think tragically, they put themselves in a place where they're aligning, in my view, with things that are not ethical. they're most certainly not democratic, and in some cases, you know, they are supporting things that i think are illegal and should not happen in the united states of america. >> most definitely. ambassador mcfaul, rick stengel, they're staying with us. and when we return, as ted cruz cozies up to the texas secessionist crowd, there's new reporting into the russian roots of the lone star state's growing secession movement. that's next. stay with us. cession movement that's next. stay with us finding the right e tough. finding understanding doesn't have to be. we can create a kinder, more inclusive world for the millions of people on the autism spectrum. go to autismspeaks.org. do you take aspirin? 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yep, they're on it with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. i don't just play someone brainy on tv - i'm an actual neuroscientist. and i love the science behind neuriva plus. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? yes, please! neuriva. think bigger. a new analysis reveals the roots and immediate dangers of this suggestion made by texas republican senator ted cruz a few weeks ago that texas could secede from the u.s. if republicans don't get their way. >> texas is right now an amazing force, keeping america from going off the cliff. i think we have a responsibility. now, listen, if the democrats end the filibuster, if they fundamentally destroy the country, if they pack the supreme court, if they make d.c. a state, if they federalize elections and massively expand voter fraud, there may come a point where it's hopeless. we're not there yet, and if there comes a point where it's hopeless, then i think we take nasa, we take the military, we take the oil. >> good gracious. this week, the bulwark highlights the deep russian origins of today's texas secession movement and the seriousness of an all too comfortable sitting u.s. senator giving oxygen to putin's investment in america extremism that could be convincing and deadly. christopher harrison writes, "it is important to understand that the modern secession movement is not a product of lone star pride. it's an idea that has been force fed into the american conservative movement by russia. secession is one of the kremlin's active measures campaigns, promote fringe what can whackos abroad." we're back with ambassador mcfaul and rick stengel. ambassador, i got to start with you on this. from an international perspective, i can understand somebody saying, ha ha, we'll get texas to secede and nobody will have to watch texans games and we don't have dallas and those things are good. but it actually would hurt the republican party because if texas somehow left the u.s. union, sort of like what you have in england right now, once ireland sort of left, now labor can't really win any national elections. what is the value of promoting something as ridiculous as texas secessionism? i understand that ted cruz is a kiss-up, but why would russia care? >> well, first of all, the idea that anybody would support secessionist movement in the united states, that weakens the united states of america. let's be clear about that at the get-go. maybe he was making a joke. i don't know. but that is not an american who wants america to be strong in the world. that weakens the united states of america. and that's exactly what vladimir putin wants. america's not the only country that he supported secessionist movements. he supported them in spain. he supported it in scotland. he supported the brexit movement in the uk. all designed to weaken countries and the european union that he considers his enemy. and in the united states, he foments these ideas, he creates alliances with american organizations, extremist, nationalist organizations which he believes, if they become stronger, the united states of america, as a country in the international system, becomes weaker. now, whether people are joking about it or understand that, i don't -- i can't -- i don't know that. i'm not an expert on that. but there's no doubt in my mind that that is what vladimir putin is seeking to do. he wants to weaken america, supporting a secessionist movement in texas or northern california. they do another one here. that weakens the united states of america. >> rick, i want to put up this map on the screen. every other year or so, some political scientist, some sociologist is like, oh, yes, the united states could easily break into multiple countries, a southern, a midwestern, and a heartland. most of this, i find to be ridiculous turtle dove fan fiction. but what it speaks to is that america is a unique place. there aren't that many countries, nigeria, some places in india, there aren't that many countries that have this much diversity that have managed to stay a coherent nation for 200-plus years, and for the rest of the world, the idea that these internal conflicts we have could lead to this country breaking up isn't so crazy. what do we have to do as a nation to sort of project to the rest of the world, hey, look, this is an internal family squabble, and we're not about to break into a hundred different pieces? >> well, we have to tell our story, jason. i mean, our story, it's not very popular to use the term "american exceptionalism" now but i would use it in the sense of, we are the only diverse democratic country of our size in history. i mean, you know, going back to the greeks, you know, plato didn't think you could have a democracy this big. even the founders didn't think you could have a democracy this big and i would go back to mike's point. we always think that the russians have a specific purpose in supporting donald trump. what they support is chaos. what they support is undermining democracy. they have been supporting secessionist movements around the world since the cold war. they don't even know what the outcome is going to be. they want to disrupt the order of america, and so they tap into things that are already there. the russians don't create discord. they amplify it through disinformation and some of these things are part of our genetic make-up as americans. you know, texans are proud of their own state. lots of regions of the country are proud of their own state but what the russians try to do is take that as a kind of germ and use it to sow discord, disharmony, in the united states of america. >> ambassador michael mcfaul and rick stengel, thank you so much for spending time with us. we have breaking news regarding the investigation by the january 6th select committee. nbc news confirming what the atlanta journal constitution first reported, that georgia's secretary of state, brad raffensperger, was interviewed by the committee for several hours today. raffensperger said he spoke at length about that infamous phone call from president trump asking him to, quote, find the votes. that would overturn joe biden's victory in georgia, raffensperger telling the atlanta journal constitution, quote, we talked about that and everything else leading into the election that was their focus because that was where the greatest disinformation was foisted upon our nation. he added that the committee had copies of his recently published book on hand to reference. when we return, investigative reporter david k. johnston will join us with his new book. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ instantly clear everyday congestion to with vicks sinex saline.. for fast drug free relief vicks sinex. instantly clear everyday congestion. and try vicks sinex children's saline. safe and gentle relief for children's noses. i just heard something amazing! now for the first time one medication was approved to treat and prevent migraines. nurtec is the first and only option proven to treat and prevent migraines with one medication. onederful. one quick dissolve tablet can start fast and last. don't take if allergic to nurtec. the most common side effects were nausea, stomach pain, and indigestion. with nurtec odt, i treat migraine my way. what's your way? ask your doctor about nurtec to find out! look, donald trump has made it very clear, right, that he is grifting off of the american people, these supporters, these individuals that are just sending money to him at record levels. it's really amazing that people don't see exactly what the guy is doing. this is really important for all of the viewers as well. one of the things donald trump has done is grift off of the big lie, that the election was stolen from him in 2020. it was not stolen from him. >> that was michael cohen on "meet the press" this past sunday talking about how the twice-impeached disgraced former blogger president in florida is grifting off the american people. all to raise money and fight against the big lie that the election was stolen from him. you know, that grift. it's the subject of the latest book from david k. johnston who has profiled trump over the last ten years and reveals the financial misdeeds of the trump family. the book is entitled "the big cheat: how donald trump fleeced america and enriched himself and his family." david k. johnston joins us now. great to speak to you again. this is the thing that gets me. right off the bat, i figure at this point, if you're getting fleeced by donald trump, right, there's but so many times that somebody can send you an email that says, i'm a prince in a foreign country, please send me $20,000. if you fall for it three times, don't you almost deserve it? the people who are still being fleeced by donald trump, are they victims or volunteers at this point? >> well, there certainly are people i describe in the book who were victims, like a dying man who sent $500, half of his income for the month, and then the trump campaign tapped his bank account until they drained it, and they did this to many, many, many people. the people who are donating today, i think many of them simply have come to hate america. they're very unhappy for reasons i've described in the 33 years i've been covering donald, the bottom 90% of americans had a smaller income in 2019 than they did in 1973, for example. last year, i just reported that of all the pay raises in america in 2020, 82% of the money went to people who already make over $1 million a year. and the median pay raise was only $26. so, a lot of people were really unhappy about conditions in america, and they see donald as their savior, even though he has no capacity to do that. he's really out just to line his pockets, his family's pockets, and in his administration, encourage others, including two cabinet secretaries i read about, to use the government to enrich themselves and their families rather than serving the public in a position of trust. >> so, david, this is something else. you're on your third book now, and i have enjoyed your previous two books. usually, the trilogies, the third one isn't great. yours are great. i'm assuming this third one is going to be fantastic and it's not the conclusion of the trump saga because he's still trying to enrich himself and his family. so, my question now is, what motivated you to write this book? is it as a warning for what america needs to take into consideration in 2022 and 2024? or is it sort of a reminder, hey, if you guys weren't listening, this guy is not taking the defeat the defeat in0 as a stopgap, it's an opportunity to steal more money? >> you had a great discussion earlier in the hour about how a couple of facts are being abused to get people to not understand the relationship that trump has had with the russians since the early '80s and how the kremlin has been courting him since 1987, and how he has been used through brilliant spy craft. similarly, when it comes to finances and ripping off the public and taxpayers. what i realized was, throughout the trump administration there were these loose threads, something here would be in the news for a day and something else here, and what i did was try to tell people all of that isn't going to work. instead, pull together enough loose threads and create a tapestry so people can see what they were doing and how it's important and most importantly at the end, there are solutions that i lay out. since donald trump left office, it's very clear that what he's doing is he's become america's beggar in chief. that's how he makes his living. he begs for money. and he's going to need a lot of it once he's indicted to pay criminal defense lawyers, just in the case in manhattan, never mind if he's indited to the other locations. >> new book is "the big cheat" by david k. johnston. he's probably the best analyst on trump we have. thank you so much for spending time with us today. >> thank you, jason. >> we'll be right back after a quick break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event. dad are you sure you're up to host? yeah! we want to keep it the way it always was, right? ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ that's your grandma. she was the best at the holidays. your plain aspirin could be hurting your stomach. vazalore... is the first liquid-filled aspirin capsule clinically shown to cause fewer ulcers than plain aspirin. try new vazalore. aspirin made amazing! as i observe investors balance risk and reward, i see one element securing portfolios, time after time. gold. your strategic advantage. there's an important runoff election happening today, right now, in fact. perhaps worth more national attention. voters today in atlanta are electing their 61st mayor, among some other positions. there are two names appearing on the ballot for mayor today, the candidates, felicia moore, and two-term council member andre dickens are democrats both running on fixing issues with traffic, crime, and affordable housing. but atlanta is about more than roads and taxes. it's a hub for black culture, it's become the hollywood of the south. however, this race is about more than the coca-cola museum and unfounded threats to close magic city. atlanta is ground zero in the fight against republican voter suppression efforts. whoever wins the election will be in the vanguard against attempts to suppress the atlanta metro vote in elections. polls close this evening. something to keep track of. we'll be back right after this break. ght after this break. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ one of my favorite supplements is qunol turmeric. for your free decision guide. turmeric helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. unlike regular turmeric supplements qunol's superior absorption helps me get the full benefits of turmeric. the brand i trust is qunol. the peñas are saving big, holiday shopping at amazon. so now, they're free to become... the party peñas. they see your ugly sweaters, and raise you some mittens. - grammarly business turned my marketing team into rock stars. (diana strums guitar) maya swears by grammarly business because it keeps her work on brand and error-free. fast and easy. - [announcer] learn more at grammarly.com/business. - san francisco can have criminal justice reform and public safety. but district attorney chesa boudin is failing on both. - the safety of san francisco is dependent upon chesa being recalled as soon as possible. - i didn't support the newsom recall but this is different. - chesa takes a very radical perspective and approach to criminal justice reform, which is having a negative impact on communities of color. - i never in a million years thought that my son, let alone any six-year-old, would be gunned down in the streets of san francisco and not get any justice. - chesa's failure has resulted in increase in crime against asian americans. - the da's office is in complete turmoil at this point. - for chesa boudin to intervene in so many cases is both bad management and dangerous for the city of san francisco. - we are for criminal justice reform. chesa's not it. recall chesa boudin now. thank you for being with us this hour. nicolle will be back tomorrow. we go from welcome to atlanta to an empire state of mind on "the beat" with ari melber starting right now. >> what do you call it when it's a double reference with geography, to boot? >> i don't know, ari. what do you call it? >> i think we call it instead of two chains, two refs. and i only challenge you to do three next time because you're always innovating. >> i am an innovator on the microphone. thank you, mr. melber. >> thank you. welcome, everyone, to "the beat." we do have a special show tonight. i'll tell you exactly why right now. coming up, coverage of a breakthrough that tracks some of the legal reporting we've done here, the number one trump aide in the white house during the insurrection, former chief of staff mark meadows, today folding. he will cooperate and give testimony to the house investigation of that insurrection. apparently the threat of prison works. we'll get into that tonight and why it matters. also, something we her

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