Transcripts For MSNBC Velshi 20240709 : comparemela.com

Transcripts For MSNBC Velshi 20240709



speaker nancy pelosi gathered the vote on friday morning. >> on this vote, the yeas are 220. the nays are 213. the build back better bill has passed. >> this bill is monumental. it's historic and it's transformative. it's bigger than anything we've ever done. >> bigger than anything we've ever done, but there's still work to do. build back better is not headed for the president's desk quite yet. the senate gets to weigh in first and one senator in particular remains an enigma, shall we say. there are still doubts whether or not joe manchin of west virginia is on the same page as everyone else or what other changes he might demand. with a 50/50 split democrats need every vote to push the bill through in the final months of the year. the house censured paul gosar. the lone republican votes in favor of the censure were representatives liz cheney and adam kin zinger, the two republican senators of the committee. i am joined by don bacon of nebraska. two weeks ago congressman bacon was one of the 13 republicans who voted in favor of passing the bipartisan infrastructure bill sending it to president biden's desk and drawing the ire of a lot of his republican colleagues. congressman bacon good morning to you, good to see you again. >> good morning, ali. always good to be with you. thank you, sir. you were one of the only 13 republican who had voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill and a greater proportion of the senate colleagues will probably do the same. what was behind the decision and what have you faced since that vote. >> 19 senators did vote for it to include doug grassley and doug fisher of nebraska. i thought it was a good bill for our country and i think it should be the party of infrastructure and abraham lincoln, and eisenhower did the highway system or enter state system. we need a good infrastructure and we want to compete in commerce and our exports and we need it for public safety. in nebraska, we have 1300 bridges that have to be fixed as we're nearing the end of the life span and we have about 15% of nebraskans don't have broadband internet and we can fix that, as well. i thought infrastructure is something that our country can come together on and i frankly believe it and it's popular in my district, 51% wanted the infrastructure bill and every major industry supported this bill and didn't support the build back better bill and i felt i was right where our district was at. >> i don't know why infrastructure isn't bipartisan all of the time, but you got some pushback. some of your republican colleagues weren't happy about this and those of you who voted in favor of it, suggesting it was a socialist hard left bill should be stripped of your committee assignments. how does that sit with you? >> it doesn't sit well with me at all. 90% of the criticisms that i took on this bill was they were saying i voted for the build back better bill by voting for the infrastructure bill and this is not the case. there are two separate votes and i don't think the success bill will pass the senate especially as written and it will change a lot and also the people of the house that were making these charges of taking people off committees, they represent the minority and a smaller group. i believe the vast majority of our conference. i voted my conscience and when you vote your conscience and start feeling these threats that's not a good precedence. i believe 80% or 90% of the conference would vote this down and it was brought up to a vote. >> you co-sponsored the lower cost more cures act which aims to make prescription drugs more affordable. there is a similar provision in the build back better bill. does it satisfy what you wanted to do or are you still going forward with this other bill? >> i would prefer doing narrow legislation on prescription drugs. the problem with the build back better bill, it's 1.75 drill onand the cbo says it's more than that. we should probably be looking at these things individually. there are individual measures in here that a lot of republicans can support. when you also throw in, for example, amnesty for $11 million adults. i can go on and on and give you a laundry list of this bill. not a single republican supported and i believe it gets them the senate. senator manchin will provide supervision and more centrist, moderate thinking and a lot of this stuff was stripped out and we'll see what we end up with. >> let's talk about paul gosar, your colleague. you did not vote to censure him. why not? >> i would have supported a censor or reprimand and that's what we've done for 320 years and the history of congress up until this past year we've never removed people from committees or the majority is every move of the minority member from committees and ali, it's a bad precedent. what's going to happen is we're up 11 points with and what will happen in january 2023 there will be many wanting revenge and i think this is poise ong the water and it's throwing gas on this partisan fire and i'll guarantee it, there will be return fire from our conference, and i don't think it's healthy. i don't recommend it, but this is a bad road that it's taking us down and republicans are moving democrats up and i'm sure in a year or two and i don't think it's healthy for the institution. >> would you do that? would you have maxine waters removed from her committee assignments? >> i would have said no from the beginning, but now we have four republicans and given top cover for most republicans to do the same thing. i would prefer making a deal with the democrats that we never do this again and it's a terrible precedent. >> should your leadership be dealing with it? you don't like the idea that nancy pelosi should be dealing with it. should someone send a message to paul gosar that what he did was inapproach dwrat? >> it was signaled that the democrats would have committees. in the previous incidents with the republican from georgia he was going to remove her off of one of two committees and then steny hoyer came back and said it's got to be both. that's what mccarthy stopped negotiating. normally the parties are in charge of disciplining their own folks and it's sort of been taken out of our hands. i don't know that kevin would have taken mr. gosar off. i know he called him and had him apologize and had him remove the video that's in question and he may have gone down this path of removing him off one or both committees, i don't know, but when the democrat leadership said, hey, we're just going to do it, that's when kevin just backed off. our own party should be in charge of disciplining our members and kevin has signaled his willingness to do it, but then he's trumped, so to speak, by speaker pelosi and steny hoyer. >> representative bacon, good to talk to you. you've got a lot of policy issues that i think you and i would like to continue to discuss so i invite you back to have discussions. sometimes we can talk politics and approximately see. >> i always enjoy interviewing with you. you do a great job. >> republican bacon of nebraska. joining me is eugene, reporter with "the washington post." >> house democrats and two republicans, the two on the january 6th committee and the two whom you would expect voted to censure him and to sfrip him of committee assignments and to many viewers that might mean the same thing and you heard representative bacon say two thing, not removing him from his committee assignments. your thoughts on this? >> well, you have to look at what many of the people on the receiving end of the violence that people believe the congressman was communicating and advancing and re-tweeting that post that impacted congresswoman alexandria ocasio cortez. a message is being sent to people on the ground floor and the republican party that this type of behavior is acceptable. i interviewed jennifer gosar yesterday, the congressman's sister and she said the endorsement from trump will put gas on the fire that we have seen in the base of the republican party when it comes to using language and actions that can cause harm to people on the other side of the aisle. so the idea of removing someone from a committee could be too far, it seems to be inconsistent with what people who fear the impact that gosar's actions and social media use can have. >> in fact, republican leader kevin mccarthy has reportedly said that he would give gosar and marjorie taylor greene who was stripped of her committee assignments better assignments if the gop win again. you just heard congressman bacon talk about this feeling of revenge that republicans may have. >> right. not only are these law makers not being punished, they're being rewarded and you can't help to wonder are there other republican lawmakers who notice this and maybe i should act this way as well and maybe i should speak this way and tweet this way so that i can get better assignments and it would set a precedent and i would encourage people if they don't think this type of behavior is going to lead to more of it, if you look at some of the people running for congress, running for the senate who aren't obviously in washington yet, pay attention to their social media. they're taking this type of activity to another level. and so it's only getting worse and there are people who wonder how far will it go and if republican leadership will ever say anything to stop it. >> you make an interesting point because there are a bunch of people elected in local elections a few weeks ago who are conspiracy theorists with the stop the steal january 6th stuff and there is more to come, but donald trump chimed in on this and he's doubling down on his support of paul gosar in the wake of some republicans like congressman bacon saying, hey, i didn't want him removed from his assignments or i didn't think he should be removed, but i do think he should be censured. he's giving his full-throated effort to paul gosar and people like that. >> without a doubt, and that's because we're in a moment right now where things are incredibly tribal. what paul gosar did was attack one person on the side that has been consistent in attacking donald trump, and so what we know is the former president really does believe in loyalty and he really does believe in size and the fact is that gosar is on his side and he's willing to criticize those who criticize trump and so the former president endorses him. eugene, good to see you as always. eugene scott, a national political reporter for "the washington post." coming up on "velshi," self-defense has been a popular claim in the ahmaud arbery trial it falls apart at the seams when he claimss hoo was he was not threatened by the jogger. watch this. that was in these clothes...ugh. but the clothes washed in tide- so much cleaner! if it's got to be clean, it's got to be tide hygienic clean no surprises in these clothes! couple more surprises. kevin! kevin? 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>> ali, i can tell you despite the protests that we saw across the country, things in kenosha remained calm. 500 national guard members were on the ready, on standby and that could be a sign that this community is ready to move forward. as you mentioned, we saw people taking to the streets from new york to chicago and in portland, oregon, protesters turning to rioters after fires were set and doors and windows were busted into, projectiles thrown at police officers there. this is a very emotional trials that the nation of watching closely including the uncle of jacob blake. this is the man who was shot last systemer by kenosha police sparking days of protest and kyle rittenhouse showing up and shooting three people last night. i want you to listen to what his uncle had to say shortly after that verdict was read. >> what did you make of his argument of self-defense. >> that's ridiculous. self-defense is someones your house and he was out on the street and he was a provocateur and he had these people come to him. the videos don't lie. >> kyle rittenhouse's defense attorney says he has 24-hour security around him and they suspect in the coming days he will be leaving this area for his own safety. ali? >> megan, thanks very much. megan fitzgerald is nbc news' correspondent. coming up, the trial of three men accused of killing ahmaud ar are abouty continues to shock the nation and kevin goff is suggesting that arbery might have actually been responsible for his own death. and kevin gof that arbery might have actually been responsible for his own death. nation and kevin goff is suggesting that arbery might have actually been responsible for his own death. responsible for his own death. breast cancer as the first hormonal based therapy. ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole. ibrance may cause low white blood cell counts that may lead to serious infections. ibrance may cause severe inflammation of the lungs. both of these can lead to death. tell your doctor if you have new or worsening chest pain, cough, or trouble breathing. before taking ibrance, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection, liver or kidney problems, are or plan to become pregnant, or are breastfeeding. for more information about side effects talk to your doctor. ♪♪ be in your moment. ask your doctor about ibrance. ♪♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual day♪♪ ♪♪feel like throwing my worries away♪♪ ♪♪as an old native-born californian would say♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual day♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual sky♪♪ ♪♪not a sign of a cloud passing by♪♪ ♪♪if my heart won't behave in the usual way♪♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event. ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us at fidelity, your dedicated advisor will help you create a comprehensive wealth plan for your full financial picture. with the right balance of risk and reward. so you can enjoy more of...this. this is the planning effect. on monday morning closing arguments are set to begin in the trial of the three men charged with killing ahmaud arbery in what lawyers, civil rights leaders and arbery's family called a modern-day lynching. travis mcmichael, the man who fired the shot that killed arbery testified this week about the events that led up to that moment. he claims to have being recognized arbery from a confrontation days earlier and maintains the fatal shooting was done in self-defense, but watch what happened when mcmichael faced questions from the prosecution. here's just a sampling of how his story held up. >> so at this point you're ordering him to stop, is that correct? >> i wouldn't say ordering. i was asking him. >> like nicely and politely, please, sir, stop? >> as first it was not hey, can you stop. please, stop for a second. stop for a second. my voice, inflexion and tone, and i was trying to stay -- trying to keep the situation calm. >> despite the fact that you know about the fifth amendment and you know that no one has to talk to anyone they don't want to talk to, right? >> that's correct. >> you got out of your truck and yelled at him. >> as he was getting close to me, i was yelling, yes ma'am. >> he turned around to run back. >> he did. >> did not threaten you in any way? >> no. >> didn't verbally threaten you? >> not verbally, no. >> did he swear at you? >> didn't swear. >> didn't say anything? >> did not. >> didn't pull out a gun. >> he did not pull out a gun. >> turned around and ran away. >> once he got from me to you, directed to me. once i reached into my truck is when he turned and ran away, yes ma'am. >> you're telling this jury that a man who has spent five minutes running away from you, you are now thinking is somehow going to want to continue to engage with you, someone with a shotgun and your father, a man who has just said stop or i'll blow your [ bleep ] head off by trying to get in their truck? >> that's what it shows, yes, ma'am. >> now race has been at the center of this trial from the very start. i'm sure you'll remember the defense attorney who said he didn't want any more black pastors coming in the courtroom to sit with the arbery family. yesterday that same guy said this. >> third party are influencing this case and they've been doing from the gallery in this courtroom. they've been doing it outside. this is what a public lynching looks like in the 21st century with all due respect. >> this is what a public lynching looks like in the 21st century. no, actually black pastors being in the courtroom is nothing like lynching whatsoever. to use the phrase public lynching to describe black clergy rallying around a black family whose son was chased down and shot and killed by white self-styled vigilantes is outrageously offensive. lynching is a very specific word with a very specific meaning. britainica defines it as, quote, a form of violence in which a mob under the pretext of administering justice without trial executes a presumed offender. that's actually what happened to ahmaud arbery. he went jogging that day and was confronted by three white men who were not police, who felt it was within their authority to stop him and force him to explain why he was innocent of supposed crimes that they had no evidence of, and when they -- when he did not stop they chased him down and one of them shot and killed him. that's what's being described now by so many as a modern-day lynching. what happened to arbery, and the question that looms over this trial is what will happen if these three men are not held accountable. joining me now is paul butler, he's a former federal prosecutor and an msnbc legal analyst. people have been describing what happened to arbery as a modern-day lynching. i was very, very surprised to hear the defense attorney talking about black clergy being in the courtroom as a modern-day lynching, because there is no clearer way to understand the context of this trial as opposed to in the context of what lynching used to be and still apparently is. >> yeah, but of course, this is the same defense attorney who complained that there weren't enough southern white men over 40 in the jury pool. now he wants to control which black people attend a public trial? it's hard to say whether that's more racist or more unconstitutional. at this point his comments are getting so inflammatory, i think he's trying to provoke a mistrial and the judge should not let him get away with this. >> how does that help the cause of the defendants to provoke a mistrial so that they can do this again and get the jury that they really want? >> these are the tactics of a desperate lawyer who can't fight his case based on the merit. i can't imagine he's got to get a better jury in a county that is one-quarter african-american 11 out of 12 jurors are white. >> let me ask you about the racial context in this trial. the defense attorneys are working very hard to illustrate the idea that race should have nothing to do with this, that ahmaud arbery was a guy, snooping around stealing things from a home under construction. no one had any evidence of that whatsoever. the 911 calls and all of it seems to suggest we have an intruder in the neighborhood who doesn't feel that he belongs here and we're going to do something about it. >> you know, it's actually the prosecution that has compelling evidence that all three of these men are racist. according to one defendant, mr. bryan, after travis mcmichael pumped those three bullets into mr. arbery he called him the "n" word. all of the defendants have said racist things on social media, but the prosecution didn't offer this evidence within its case. i think it was a strategic decision based on this virtually all-white jury. they didn't want to look like they were injecting race in the case, but i also think it was a mistake because it helps explain what we all know that the defendants singled out mr. arbery because he was black. a white jogger would still be alive. >> let's just talk about the white jogger situation. the defense is claiming that ahmaud arbery, had he just stopped and submitted to the request by the defendants to stop, everything would be okay. the prosecutor made a clear case that the constitution protects people from not stopping and talking to people who they don't want to stop and talk to, at which point the defense makes this argument which -- i want you to put your lawyer hat on and tell me how much sense this makes. the defense attorney said arbery had a, quote, last chance to avoid bryan's truck which the defendants used during the encounter arbery had one last clear chance and contributed to that danger by his own conduct. he argued that arbery should have run to avoid the truck possibly by running into a neighbor's house, jumping into a pool or climbing up the side of a tree. so he's saying arbery should have run away from these guys. these guys said they shot arbery because he was running away. >> you know, ali, it was so difficult listening to travis mcmichael testify and the way he described these three white men hunting down mr. arbery and to justify his presence reminded me of slave catchers and that's where the georgia citizens arrest law comes from, but travis fell apart on cross-examination. he admitted that mr. arbery never verbally threatened anybody. he was running and there was no more reason to suspect mr. arbery of stealing of that construction site than the white people would have also been seen at the construction site and the defendants claim that they were conducting the citizen's arrest of mr. arbery, but on cross-examination, travis admitted he never told the police he was conducting a citizen's arrest and he never even told mr. arbery why he was stopping him. >> this is a remarkable case and we'll continue to cover it. paul butler is a former federal prosecutor and an msnbc legal analyst. >> two men exonerated in the death of malcolm x and a documentary is being credited with helping to bring attention back to the case. ♪ limu emu... & doug ♪ ♪ superpowers from a spider bite? 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(vo) subaru and our retailers believe in giving back. that's why, in difficult times, we provided one hundred and fifty million meals to feeding america. and now through the subaru share the love event, we're helping even more. by the end of this year, subaru will have donated over two hundred and twenty five million dollars to charity. this is what it means to be more than a car company. this is what it means to be subaru. the u.s. department of education's office of civil rights is now investigating claims made against the school district in a dallas suburb. the subject of the probe is the carroll independent school district in southlake, texas. discrimination against students based on their race, gender and nation of origin. you may remember the town of southlake made headlines in recent months as it became one of the first communities to go to war over critical race theory is to fight against the implementation of a diversity, equity and inclusion plan in schools. the controversy was on a national scale by antonia hilton who turned it into the hit podcast, southlake. here's what they uncovered in the course of there reporting. >> southlake is really one of the ground zero communities where this fight over race and history began. it started in 2018 with that video that you mentioned of well-known students in the district chanting the "n" word. >> to me it's just a word. >> it's not just a word. don't even say that. do you know what that means? that is a racial slur. i can't believe that you would say that to me. >> there's no words that offend me. >> because you're white! >> we are not at this point looking at any type of diversity, equity, inclusion plan. >> people don't know what it is, but now there's a name for that thing that goes creek in the night. when then president trump stepped forward and said it was critical race theory any i thought there's a bogeyman. >> is there racism? >> i didn't know that was going to be asked. >> it's at the center of what the students have been saying. >> i don't know that i necessarily have to have a yes or no to that question. ♪♪ ♪♪ >> joining me now antonia hilton, a correspondent for nbc news and the co-host of the southlake podcast. antonia, great to see you. give us a little bit more on the specific claims of discrimination against the carroll independent school district and what the reaction to it has been? >> these are three separate investigations, civil rights investigations from the department of education and they deal with issues of race, gender and sexuality and nation of origin, and these investigations are pretty significant. from the experts that we've spoken to, when these complaints are made only about 5% to 10% of complaints that go to this office actually become full-fledged investigations and so the understanding from experts in this case who i've brought this story to is that this indicates that the department of education senses there could be serious title 9 violations at the carroll school district in southlake. in terms of the reaction it's been all over the place. we have folks who we've spoken to in the podcast who have come forward and said this is a sad, but necessary step that they feel the school district was never going to tackle the race and anti-lgbtq in the district and then you have folks in town who are saying that nbc has colluded with the biden administration to unfairly target southlake, although i can say with certainty that nbc was not involved in the process of this investigation or the filing of these complaint, but there are rumors spreading in town on one side and then other folks saying this is what we've been waiting for, ali. >> what is the connection between your reports and the podcast and these lawsuits? these investigations. >> at this time, what i can say is the complainants and the nature of their complaints is confidential. the doe is not making that public at this time and those families are not coming forward and identifying themselves. what i can say, though, is that mike and i have been reporting in south lake for almost a year now and we've spoken to numerous families feeling like what their kids have been experiencing in this school amounts to civil rights and their kids hearing racial slurs consistently at school or classmates online and students who are year or gay describing a culture of harassment in the schools and targeted on social media, anyone who listened to the podcast will remember an episode that dives very deeply into one student's experience with this. so we have consistently heard parents describe what's happened in that district as a violation of civil rights and so, in some ways, this was a step that didn't necessarily surprise mike and me. >> you and mike have spent a lot of time there and you haven't had a chance to spend time in all towns. to what degree do you think what is going on in southlake is a microcosm of what's going on in other schools. >> in terms of what's happening with schools right now, some teachers in some states where they have passed these new anti-crt laws and we're seeing teachers not just in southlake, but other communities around the country feel pressured to change the way they talk about race and history, feel pressure to remove certain books from their classrooms or get them vetted by administrations and that's something that started in southlake and we are starting to see crop up in other communities, as well. i think throughout our reporting one of the reasons nbc has invested so much in the story of southlake and the podcast, it's a battle over these issues. what happens in southlake starts to happen elsewhere in a couple of weeks and a company of months later. >> great research and reporting from you and mike. antonio hilton, nbc correspondent, co-host of the southlake podcast. all episodes of this podcast are available wherever you get your podcasts. coming up, if you don't know the significance of 1619, you should by now. the pulitzer prize-winning journalist nicole hanna jones joins me after the break. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? 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. sometime in 2019, probably around august of 2019, trymaine lee, a friend and colleague here, had told me about a series of articles that were being published in the "new york times" magazine about the 1619 project. and i have to admit, i did not know anything about 1619. i did not know the significance of that year. turns out that that is the year in which 20 enslavd africans privileged in virginia and beginning of an era of legacy of slavery in the united states. and so i invited the author of that, the co-founders of that project to talk about it. and my mind was blown. nicole opened my eyes to things that i did not know. and my reaction at the time was that this is amazing. you've taught me something that i didn't know. you reframed my history. it never occurred too me that you were making people feel bad, but it has turned on out to be a lightning rod. and she is creator of the 1619 project and coed either tore of editor of a new book. and so nicole hannah jones, you have since become a great friend to the show. and you are a lightning rod in america on so many levels. you are the embodiment of the greatest threat to what some people believe american history to be. >> i don't know how to comment to that. but first thank you for having me on the show and for all of your thoughtful reporting and commentary that you do. i have become a symbol both for people who love the work that i'm doing and for people who not only hate the work that i'm doing but really hated this idea that our society was going to have to reckon with the fact that we were founded on ideals of freedom. and these are people who really -- they say that they are patriotic but they don't seem to believe that our country is strong enough to deal with the truth of who we were in the past and who we are in the present. and all we have to do is look at what is happening in our society right now. the kyle rittenhouse ruling yesterday, ahmaud arbery's case that is ongoing, the fact that there is an insurrection on january 6. 1619 explains so much of that. and i believe that we can grapple with our past so that we can try to build the country that we say we are. >> to grapple truthfully with our past is interesting. you published these essays almost a year george floyd and i've been talking to people and last month i was in jackson, mississippi talking to a recent graduate of tupelo university who said this to me about the way that she as a black woman learned history. let's listen. >> you are going to school. when it got to black history month or the textbooks to slavery and civil war section, we hear about different confederate soldiers and generals every single year. but then we get to black history month and you hear about rosa, pas, malcolm x and martin luther king every year for 12 years as if they were the only three, you know, blacks heos of the country. but every year there is different confederate and -- like soldiers and generals that are being praised by these teaches in the classroom as if they were heros. well, they might be heros to you, but they weren't heros to me. >> i thought that that was very compelling. the argument that you make differently by saying that this is actually our history. let's actually teach it. it can't possibly hurt us to know our history. it can only hurt us not to know our history. >> absolutely. because the truth is, we are living with the legacy of that history whether we acknowledge it or not. and by not learning about that history, it actuallyrenders us in-capable. and we segregate or history. we teach american history and black american history as if they are not intertwined. our founders, the slim majority of them, were enslavers. our constitution protected slavery. the men who drafted the constitution and bill of rights were enslavers. our institutions have been shaped by this legacy. and we rant to treat it as an asterisk, as optional history. and it really is central to the american story. i saw you the reporting on southlaying. and there is fear about how there is a teaching something to be guilty. if you can take pride in abraham lincoln, then you can also say that i feel remorse for these things in the past that we should try to address those things in the past. we have to be able to do both of those things. >> you have contributed to the corpus of american history whether you like it or not. you are now part of that story in an upon ther things that i d know before. so thank you for the work that you have done. nicole, thank you for what you have done. and i want to give a quick birthday shoutout not to president biden who turned 79 today, but to a senior graphic artist here at msnbc. he is an instrumental part of turning our ideas in to television and allowing us to tell the stories that we tell. we use a lot of graphics on this show. mario, we appreciate you and all the beautiful work that the graphics team does for us. so have a very happy birthday and do what i always do, eat something good. that is all for me. i'll be back here tomorrow morning at 8:00. and poutine for breakfast? and now tiffany cross begins. we the jury find kyle rittenhouse not guilty. >> welcome to the cross connection. as you can see, we have a lot to get into today. we're obviously going to begin with the kyle rittenhouse case who walks free out of a kenosha courthouse on friday having been acquitted on all five counts of homicide and endangering safety. he had been on trial for fatally shooting two men and wounding one other during protests over the police shooting of jacob blake. and none of this was the least bit surprising. the ar-15 rittenhouse will suffer no criminal consequences for his actions and he has already become a darling of the right. and this trial is not the only one we've been watching this week. and in georgia a judge denied the defendant's motion for a mistrial in the shooting death of ahmaud arbery after the defense cl

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Transcripts For MSNBC Velshi 20240709

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speaker nancy pelosi gathered the vote on friday morning. >> on this vote, the yeas are 220. the nays are 213. the build back better bill has passed. >> this bill is monumental. it's historic and it's transformative. it's bigger than anything we've ever done. >> bigger than anything we've ever done, but there's still work to do. build back better is not headed for the president's desk quite yet. the senate gets to weigh in first and one senator in particular remains an enigma, shall we say. there are still doubts whether or not joe manchin of west virginia is on the same page as everyone else or what other changes he might demand. with a 50/50 split democrats need every vote to push the bill through in the final months of the year. the house censured paul gosar. the lone republican votes in favor of the censure were representatives liz cheney and adam kin zinger, the two republican senators of the committee. i am joined by don bacon of nebraska. two weeks ago congressman bacon was one of the 13 republicans who voted in favor of passing the bipartisan infrastructure bill sending it to president biden's desk and drawing the ire of a lot of his republican colleagues. congressman bacon good morning to you, good to see you again. >> good morning, ali. always good to be with you. thank you, sir. you were one of the only 13 republican who had voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill and a greater proportion of the senate colleagues will probably do the same. what was behind the decision and what have you faced since that vote. >> 19 senators did vote for it to include doug grassley and doug fisher of nebraska. i thought it was a good bill for our country and i think it should be the party of infrastructure and abraham lincoln, and eisenhower did the highway system or enter state system. we need a good infrastructure and we want to compete in commerce and our exports and we need it for public safety. in nebraska, we have 1300 bridges that have to be fixed as we're nearing the end of the life span and we have about 15% of nebraskans don't have broadband internet and we can fix that, as well. i thought infrastructure is something that our country can come together on and i frankly believe it and it's popular in my district, 51% wanted the infrastructure bill and every major industry supported this bill and didn't support the build back better bill and i felt i was right where our district was at. >> i don't know why infrastructure isn't bipartisan all of the time, but you got some pushback. some of your republican colleagues weren't happy about this and those of you who voted in favor of it, suggesting it was a socialist hard left bill should be stripped of your committee assignments. how does that sit with you? >> it doesn't sit well with me at all. 90% of the criticisms that i took on this bill was they were saying i voted for the build back better bill by voting for the infrastructure bill and this is not the case. there are two separate votes and i don't think the success bill will pass the senate especially as written and it will change a lot and also the people of the house that were making these charges of taking people off committees, they represent the minority and a smaller group. i believe the vast majority of our conference. i voted my conscience and when you vote your conscience and start feeling these threats that's not a good precedence. i believe 80% or 90% of the conference would vote this down and it was brought up to a vote. >> you co-sponsored the lower cost more cures act which aims to make prescription drugs more affordable. there is a similar provision in the build back better bill. does it satisfy what you wanted to do or are you still going forward with this other bill? >> i would prefer doing narrow legislation on prescription drugs. the problem with the build back better bill, it's 1.75 drill onand the cbo says it's more than that. we should probably be looking at these things individually. there are individual measures in here that a lot of republicans can support. when you also throw in, for example, amnesty for $11 million adults. i can go on and on and give you a laundry list of this bill. not a single republican supported and i believe it gets them the senate. senator manchin will provide supervision and more centrist, moderate thinking and a lot of this stuff was stripped out and we'll see what we end up with. >> let's talk about paul gosar, your colleague. you did not vote to censure him. why not? >> i would have supported a censor or reprimand and that's what we've done for 320 years and the history of congress up until this past year we've never removed people from committees or the majority is every move of the minority member from committees and ali, it's a bad precedent. what's going to happen is we're up 11 points with and what will happen in january 2023 there will be many wanting revenge and i think this is poise ong the water and it's throwing gas on this partisan fire and i'll guarantee it, there will be return fire from our conference, and i don't think it's healthy. i don't recommend it, but this is a bad road that it's taking us down and republicans are moving democrats up and i'm sure in a year or two and i don't think it's healthy for the institution. >> would you do that? would you have maxine waters removed from her committee assignments? >> i would have said no from the beginning, but now we have four republicans and given top cover for most republicans to do the same thing. i would prefer making a deal with the democrats that we never do this again and it's a terrible precedent. >> should your leadership be dealing with it? you don't like the idea that nancy pelosi should be dealing with it. should someone send a message to paul gosar that what he did was inapproach dwrat? >> it was signaled that the democrats would have committees. in the previous incidents with the republican from georgia he was going to remove her off of one of two committees and then steny hoyer came back and said it's got to be both. that's what mccarthy stopped negotiating. normally the parties are in charge of disciplining their own folks and it's sort of been taken out of our hands. i don't know that kevin would have taken mr. gosar off. i know he called him and had him apologize and had him remove the video that's in question and he may have gone down this path of removing him off one or both committees, i don't know, but when the democrat leadership said, hey, we're just going to do it, that's when kevin just backed off. our own party should be in charge of disciplining our members and kevin has signaled his willingness to do it, but then he's trumped, so to speak, by speaker pelosi and steny hoyer. >> representative bacon, good to talk to you. you've got a lot of policy issues that i think you and i would like to continue to discuss so i invite you back to have discussions. sometimes we can talk politics and approximately see. >> i always enjoy interviewing with you. you do a great job. >> republican bacon of nebraska. joining me is eugene, reporter with "the washington post." >> house democrats and two republicans, the two on the january 6th committee and the two whom you would expect voted to censure him and to sfrip him of committee assignments and to many viewers that might mean the same thing and you heard representative bacon say two thing, not removing him from his committee assignments. your thoughts on this? >> well, you have to look at what many of the people on the receiving end of the violence that people believe the congressman was communicating and advancing and re-tweeting that post that impacted congresswoman alexandria ocasio cortez. a message is being sent to people on the ground floor and the republican party that this type of behavior is acceptable. i interviewed jennifer gosar yesterday, the congressman's sister and she said the endorsement from trump will put gas on the fire that we have seen in the base of the republican party when it comes to using language and actions that can cause harm to people on the other side of the aisle. so the idea of removing someone from a committee could be too far, it seems to be inconsistent with what people who fear the impact that gosar's actions and social media use can have. >> in fact, republican leader kevin mccarthy has reportedly said that he would give gosar and marjorie taylor greene who was stripped of her committee assignments better assignments if the gop win again. you just heard congressman bacon talk about this feeling of revenge that republicans may have. >> right. not only are these law makers not being punished, they're being rewarded and you can't help to wonder are there other republican lawmakers who notice this and maybe i should act this way as well and maybe i should speak this way and tweet this way so that i can get better assignments and it would set a precedent and i would encourage people if they don't think this type of behavior is going to lead to more of it, if you look at some of the people running for congress, running for the senate who aren't obviously in washington yet, pay attention to their social media. they're taking this type of activity to another level. and so it's only getting worse and there are people who wonder how far will it go and if republican leadership will ever say anything to stop it. >> you make an interesting point because there are a bunch of people elected in local elections a few weeks ago who are conspiracy theorists with the stop the steal january 6th stuff and there is more to come, but donald trump chimed in on this and he's doubling down on his support of paul gosar in the wake of some republicans like congressman bacon saying, hey, i didn't want him removed from his assignments or i didn't think he should be removed, but i do think he should be censured. he's giving his full-throated effort to paul gosar and people like that. >> without a doubt, and that's because we're in a moment right now where things are incredibly tribal. what paul gosar did was attack one person on the side that has been consistent in attacking donald trump, and so what we know is the former president really does believe in loyalty and he really does believe in size and the fact is that gosar is on his side and he's willing to criticize those who criticize trump and so the former president endorses him. eugene, good to see you as always. eugene scott, a national political reporter for "the washington post." coming up on "velshi," self-defense has been a popular claim in the ahmaud arbery trial it falls apart at the seams when he claimss hoo was he was not threatened by the jogger. watch this. that was in these clothes...ugh. but the clothes washed in tide- so much cleaner! if it's got to be clean, it's got to be tide hygienic clean no surprises in these clothes! couple more surprises. kevin! kevin? 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>> ali, i can tell you despite the protests that we saw across the country, things in kenosha remained calm. 500 national guard members were on the ready, on standby and that could be a sign that this community is ready to move forward. as you mentioned, we saw people taking to the streets from new york to chicago and in portland, oregon, protesters turning to rioters after fires were set and doors and windows were busted into, projectiles thrown at police officers there. this is a very emotional trials that the nation of watching closely including the uncle of jacob blake. this is the man who was shot last systemer by kenosha police sparking days of protest and kyle rittenhouse showing up and shooting three people last night. i want you to listen to what his uncle had to say shortly after that verdict was read. >> what did you make of his argument of self-defense. >> that's ridiculous. self-defense is someones your house and he was out on the street and he was a provocateur and he had these people come to him. the videos don't lie. >> kyle rittenhouse's defense attorney says he has 24-hour security around him and they suspect in the coming days he will be leaving this area for his own safety. ali? >> megan, thanks very much. megan fitzgerald is nbc news' correspondent. coming up, the trial of three men accused of killing ahmaud ar are abouty continues to shock the nation and kevin goff is suggesting that arbery might have actually been responsible for his own death. and kevin gof that arbery might have actually been responsible for his own death. nation and kevin goff is suggesting that arbery might have actually been responsible for his own death. responsible for his own death. breast cancer as the first hormonal based therapy. ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole. ibrance may cause low white blood cell counts that may lead to serious infections. ibrance may cause severe inflammation of the lungs. both of these can lead to death. tell your doctor if you have new or worsening chest pain, cough, or trouble breathing. before taking ibrance, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection, liver or kidney problems, are or plan to become pregnant, or are breastfeeding. for more information about side effects talk to your doctor. ♪♪ be in your moment. ask your doctor about ibrance. ♪♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual day♪♪ ♪♪feel like throwing my worries away♪♪ ♪♪as an old native-born californian would say♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual day♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual sky♪♪ ♪♪not a sign of a cloud passing by♪♪ ♪♪if my heart won't behave in the usual way♪♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event. ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us at fidelity, your dedicated advisor will help you create a comprehensive wealth plan for your full financial picture. with the right balance of risk and reward. so you can enjoy more of...this. this is the planning effect. on monday morning closing arguments are set to begin in the trial of the three men charged with killing ahmaud arbery in what lawyers, civil rights leaders and arbery's family called a modern-day lynching. travis mcmichael, the man who fired the shot that killed arbery testified this week about the events that led up to that moment. he claims to have being recognized arbery from a confrontation days earlier and maintains the fatal shooting was done in self-defense, but watch what happened when mcmichael faced questions from the prosecution. here's just a sampling of how his story held up. >> so at this point you're ordering him to stop, is that correct? >> i wouldn't say ordering. i was asking him. >> like nicely and politely, please, sir, stop? >> as first it was not hey, can you stop. please, stop for a second. stop for a second. my voice, inflexion and tone, and i was trying to stay -- trying to keep the situation calm. >> despite the fact that you know about the fifth amendment and you know that no one has to talk to anyone they don't want to talk to, right? >> that's correct. >> you got out of your truck and yelled at him. >> as he was getting close to me, i was yelling, yes ma'am. >> he turned around to run back. >> he did. >> did not threaten you in any way? >> no. >> didn't verbally threaten you? >> not verbally, no. >> did he swear at you? >> didn't swear. >> didn't say anything? >> did not. >> didn't pull out a gun. >> he did not pull out a gun. >> turned around and ran away. >> once he got from me to you, directed to me. once i reached into my truck is when he turned and ran away, yes ma'am. >> you're telling this jury that a man who has spent five minutes running away from you, you are now thinking is somehow going to want to continue to engage with you, someone with a shotgun and your father, a man who has just said stop or i'll blow your [ bleep ] head off by trying to get in their truck? >> that's what it shows, yes, ma'am. >> now race has been at the center of this trial from the very start. i'm sure you'll remember the defense attorney who said he didn't want any more black pastors coming in the courtroom to sit with the arbery family. yesterday that same guy said this. >> third party are influencing this case and they've been doing from the gallery in this courtroom. they've been doing it outside. this is what a public lynching looks like in the 21st century with all due respect. >> this is what a public lynching looks like in the 21st century. no, actually black pastors being in the courtroom is nothing like lynching whatsoever. to use the phrase public lynching to describe black clergy rallying around a black family whose son was chased down and shot and killed by white self-styled vigilantes is outrageously offensive. lynching is a very specific word with a very specific meaning. britainica defines it as, quote, a form of violence in which a mob under the pretext of administering justice without trial executes a presumed offender. that's actually what happened to ahmaud arbery. he went jogging that day and was confronted by three white men who were not police, who felt it was within their authority to stop him and force him to explain why he was innocent of supposed crimes that they had no evidence of, and when they -- when he did not stop they chased him down and one of them shot and killed him. that's what's being described now by so many as a modern-day lynching. what happened to arbery, and the question that looms over this trial is what will happen if these three men are not held accountable. joining me now is paul butler, he's a former federal prosecutor and an msnbc legal analyst. people have been describing what happened to arbery as a modern-day lynching. i was very, very surprised to hear the defense attorney talking about black clergy being in the courtroom as a modern-day lynching, because there is no clearer way to understand the context of this trial as opposed to in the context of what lynching used to be and still apparently is. >> yeah, but of course, this is the same defense attorney who complained that there weren't enough southern white men over 40 in the jury pool. now he wants to control which black people attend a public trial? it's hard to say whether that's more racist or more unconstitutional. at this point his comments are getting so inflammatory, i think he's trying to provoke a mistrial and the judge should not let him get away with this. >> how does that help the cause of the defendants to provoke a mistrial so that they can do this again and get the jury that they really want? >> these are the tactics of a desperate lawyer who can't fight his case based on the merit. i can't imagine he's got to get a better jury in a county that is one-quarter african-american 11 out of 12 jurors are white. >> let me ask you about the racial context in this trial. the defense attorneys are working very hard to illustrate the idea that race should have nothing to do with this, that ahmaud arbery was a guy, snooping around stealing things from a home under construction. no one had any evidence of that whatsoever. the 911 calls and all of it seems to suggest we have an intruder in the neighborhood who doesn't feel that he belongs here and we're going to do something about it. >> you know, it's actually the prosecution that has compelling evidence that all three of these men are racist. according to one defendant, mr. bryan, after travis mcmichael pumped those three bullets into mr. arbery he called him the "n" word. all of the defendants have said racist things on social media, but the prosecution didn't offer this evidence within its case. i think it was a strategic decision based on this virtually all-white jury. they didn't want to look like they were injecting race in the case, but i also think it was a mistake because it helps explain what we all know that the defendants singled out mr. arbery because he was black. a white jogger would still be alive. >> let's just talk about the white jogger situation. the defense is claiming that ahmaud arbery, had he just stopped and submitted to the request by the defendants to stop, everything would be okay. the prosecutor made a clear case that the constitution protects people from not stopping and talking to people who they don't want to stop and talk to, at which point the defense makes this argument which -- i want you to put your lawyer hat on and tell me how much sense this makes. the defense attorney said arbery had a, quote, last chance to avoid bryan's truck which the defendants used during the encounter arbery had one last clear chance and contributed to that danger by his own conduct. he argued that arbery should have run to avoid the truck possibly by running into a neighbor's house, jumping into a pool or climbing up the side of a tree. so he's saying arbery should have run away from these guys. these guys said they shot arbery because he was running away. >> you know, ali, it was so difficult listening to travis mcmichael testify and the way he described these three white men hunting down mr. arbery and to justify his presence reminded me of slave catchers and that's where the georgia citizens arrest law comes from, but travis fell apart on cross-examination. he admitted that mr. arbery never verbally threatened anybody. he was running and there was no more reason to suspect mr. arbery of stealing of that construction site than the white people would have also been seen at the construction site and the defendants claim that they were conducting the citizen's arrest of mr. arbery, but on cross-examination, travis admitted he never told the police he was conducting a citizen's arrest and he never even told mr. arbery why he was stopping him. >> this is a remarkable case and we'll continue to cover it. paul butler is a former federal prosecutor and an msnbc legal analyst. >> two men exonerated in the death of malcolm x and a documentary is being credited with helping to bring attention back to the case. ♪ limu emu... & doug ♪ ♪ superpowers from a spider bite? 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that is a racial slur. i can't believe that you would say that to me. >> there's no words that offend me. >> because you're white! >> we are not at this point looking at any type of diversity, equity, inclusion plan. >> people don't know what it is, but now there's a name for that thing that goes creek in the night. when then president trump stepped forward and said it was critical race theory any i thought there's a bogeyman. >> is there racism? >> i didn't know that was going to be asked. >> it's at the center of what the students have been saying. >> i don't know that i necessarily have to have a yes or no to that question. ♪♪ ♪♪ >> joining me now antonia hilton, a correspondent for nbc news and the co-host of the southlake podcast. antonia, great to see you. give us a little bit more on the specific claims of discrimination against the carroll independent school district and what the reaction to it has been? >> these are three separate investigations, civil rights investigations from the department of education and they deal with issues of race, gender and sexuality and nation of origin, and these investigations are pretty significant. from the experts that we've spoken to, when these complaints are made only about 5% to 10% of complaints that go to this office actually become full-fledged investigations and so the understanding from experts in this case who i've brought this story to is that this indicates that the department of education senses there could be serious title 9 violations at the carroll school district in southlake. in terms of the reaction it's been all over the place. we have folks who we've spoken to in the podcast who have come forward and said this is a sad, but necessary step that they feel the school district was never going to tackle the race and anti-lgbtq in the district and then you have folks in town who are saying that nbc has colluded with the biden administration to unfairly target southlake, although i can say with certainty that nbc was not involved in the process of this investigation or the filing of these complaint, but there are rumors spreading in town on one side and then other folks saying this is what we've been waiting for, ali. >> what is the connection between your reports and the podcast and these lawsuits? these investigations. >> at this time, what i can say is the complainants and the nature of their complaints is confidential. the doe is not making that public at this time and those families are not coming forward and identifying themselves. what i can say, though, is that mike and i have been reporting in south lake for almost a year now and we've spoken to numerous families feeling like what their kids have been experiencing in this school amounts to civil rights and their kids hearing racial slurs consistently at school or classmates online and students who are year or gay describing a culture of harassment in the schools and targeted on social media, anyone who listened to the podcast will remember an episode that dives very deeply into one student's experience with this. so we have consistently heard parents describe what's happened in that district as a violation of civil rights and so, in some ways, this was a step that didn't necessarily surprise mike and me. >> you and mike have spent a lot of time there and you haven't had a chance to spend time in all towns. to what degree do you think what is going on in southlake is a microcosm of what's going on in other schools. >> in terms of what's happening with schools right now, some teachers in some states where they have passed these new anti-crt laws and we're seeing teachers not just in southlake, but other communities around the country feel pressured to change the way they talk about race and history, feel pressure to remove certain books from their classrooms or get them vetted by administrations and that's something that started in southlake and we are starting to see crop up in other communities, as well. i think throughout our reporting one of the reasons nbc has invested so much in the story of southlake and the podcast, it's a battle over these issues. what happens in southlake starts to happen elsewhere in a couple of weeks and a company of months later. >> great research and reporting from you and mike. antonio hilton, nbc correspondent, co-host of the southlake podcast. all episodes of this podcast are available wherever you get your podcasts. coming up, if you don't know the significance of 1619, you should by now. the pulitzer prize-winning journalist nicole hanna jones joins me after the break. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? 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. sometime in 2019, probably around august of 2019, trymaine lee, a friend and colleague here, had told me about a series of articles that were being published in the "new york times" magazine about the 1619 project. and i have to admit, i did not know anything about 1619. i did not know the significance of that year. turns out that that is the year in which 20 enslavd africans privileged in virginia and beginning of an era of legacy of slavery in the united states. and so i invited the author of that, the co-founders of that project to talk about it. and my mind was blown. nicole opened my eyes to things that i did not know. and my reaction at the time was that this is amazing. you've taught me something that i didn't know. you reframed my history. it never occurred too me that you were making people feel bad, but it has turned on out to be a lightning rod. and she is creator of the 1619 project and coed either tore of editor of a new book. and so nicole hannah jones, you have since become a great friend to the show. and you are a lightning rod in america on so many levels. you are the embodiment of the greatest threat to what some people believe american history to be. >> i don't know how to comment to that. but first thank you for having me on the show and for all of your thoughtful reporting and commentary that you do. i have become a symbol both for people who love the work that i'm doing and for people who not only hate the work that i'm doing but really hated this idea that our society was going to have to reckon with the fact that we were founded on ideals of freedom. and these are people who really -- they say that they are patriotic but they don't seem to believe that our country is strong enough to deal with the truth of who we were in the past and who we are in the present. and all we have to do is look at what is happening in our society right now. the kyle rittenhouse ruling yesterday, ahmaud arbery's case that is ongoing, the fact that there is an insurrection on january 6. 1619 explains so much of that. and i believe that we can grapple with our past so that we can try to build the country that we say we are. >> to grapple truthfully with our past is interesting. you published these essays almost a year george floyd and i've been talking to people and last month i was in jackson, mississippi talking to a recent graduate of tupelo university who said this to me about the way that she as a black woman learned history. let's listen. >> you are going to school. when it got to black history month or the textbooks to slavery and civil war section, we hear about different confederate soldiers and generals every single year. but then we get to black history month and you hear about rosa, pas, malcolm x and martin luther king every year for 12 years as if they were the only three, you know, blacks heos of the country. but every year there is different confederate and -- like soldiers and generals that are being praised by these teaches in the classroom as if they were heros. well, they might be heros to you, but they weren't heros to me. >> i thought that that was very compelling. the argument that you make differently by saying that this is actually our history. let's actually teach it. it can't possibly hurt us to know our history. it can only hurt us not to know our history. >> absolutely. because the truth is, we are living with the legacy of that history whether we acknowledge it or not. and by not learning about that history, it actuallyrenders us in-capable. and we segregate or history. we teach american history and black american history as if they are not intertwined. our founders, the slim majority of them, were enslavers. our constitution protected slavery. the men who drafted the constitution and bill of rights were enslavers. our institutions have been shaped by this legacy. and we rant to treat it as an asterisk, as optional history. and it really is central to the american story. i saw you the reporting on southlaying. and there is fear about how there is a teaching something to be guilty. if you can take pride in abraham lincoln, then you can also say that i feel remorse for these things in the past that we should try to address those things in the past. we have to be able to do both of those things. >> you have contributed to the corpus of american history whether you like it or not. you are now part of that story in an upon ther things that i d know before. so thank you for the work that you have done. nicole, thank you for what you have done. and i want to give a quick birthday shoutout not to president biden who turned 79 today, but to a senior graphic artist here at msnbc. he is an instrumental part of turning our ideas in to television and allowing us to tell the stories that we tell. we use a lot of graphics on this show. mario, we appreciate you and all the beautiful work that the graphics team does for us. so have a very happy birthday and do what i always do, eat something good. that is all for me. i'll be back here tomorrow morning at 8:00. and poutine for breakfast? and now tiffany cross begins. we the jury find kyle rittenhouse not guilty. >> welcome to the cross connection. as you can see, we have a lot to get into today. we're obviously going to begin with the kyle rittenhouse case who walks free out of a kenosha courthouse on friday having been acquitted on all five counts of homicide and endangering safety. he had been on trial for fatally shooting two men and wounding one other during protests over the police shooting of jacob blake. and none of this was the least bit surprising. the ar-15 rittenhouse will suffer no criminal consequences for his actions and he has already become a darling of the right. and this trial is not the only one we've been watching this week. and in georgia a judge denied the defendant's motion for a mistrial in the shooting death of ahmaud arbery after the defense cl

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