i'm really optimistic we will get both of these bills to president biden's desk by the end of the month, possibly by the end of the year. >> speculation of a 2024 white house bid is growing after donald trump held a rally in iowa. the former president teasing a new slogan in the first in the nation caucus state. >> it was supposed to be keep america great. but america's not great right now, so we're using the same slogan, make america great again. and we may even add to it, but we'll keep it, make america great again again. >> clever. joining us now, lauren egan in wilmington, delaware, covering the president, and julie tsirkin. let's join julie with the latest on the january 6th committee. it's been 277 days since the attack on the capitol. where does the investigation stand now, and what are some members of trump's die-hard fanbase saying about it? >> good afternoon, alex. well, the former president spent the week talking to his ex-aides trying to convince them not to talk to the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack. but at the rally last night in iowa, he didn't talk about january 6th or the insurrection or the house committee's investigation that he so frequently puts out statements bashing, but rallygoers and supporters did talk to nbc news about january 6th. they just had a different idea of how that day went. listen. >> when we got back to our hotel room on january 6th and turned the tv on, the stories we were seeing were no resemblance at all to what we saw. >> i'm in total belief it was a big set-up, i am. it's all a political scheme. everything is a political scheme anymore. >> they can investigate all they want. there was nothing that i saw that was wrong happening there. >> january 6th was a set-up, and there's evidence that's been pouring out since then that it was set up, and the fbi was involved. >> they can investigate all they want. the bipartisan panel is investigating former president's ex-aides, his inner circle including mark meadows, kash patel, and steve bannon, who so far has not -- his lawyers said he is pretty much relying on the former president's executive privilege. he hasn't provided documents necessary on thursday and we'll see heading into next week whether any of them will show up and testify before the committee, but you heard adam schiff there saying they will swiftly consider criminal referrals should they not appear. >> my jaw dropping with each of those that you played. thank you for that. let's go to lauren egan in wilmington, delaware. the democrats are negotiating right now the details of the reconciliation package. first of all, how engaged is the president going to be in this? >> yeah, the white house says that the president is going to continue to be deeply involved and engaged with negotiations. his negotiating team on his staff is up on capitol hill frequently having conversations with senators manchin and sinema. right now, the big hold-up over this debate is how big the bill should actually be. what should the price tag be. the white house has acknowledged it's going to veto be a lot smaller than they initially proposed. a few weeks ago, we were talking about potentially $3.5 trillion. now it's looking like it's closer to the $2 trillion range. the big question is how do you get to that number? you can do two things. cut of elements of biden's agenda from the plan or put as much as you can into the plan and allocate les money for each policy item. that's the conversation happening on capitol hill. president biden has tried to refocus americans on the policy elements in the plan rather than the price tag, and he frequently points to how his policies have high approval ratings, and he's used that to try to get buy-in from moderate democrats. i want you to take a listen to what congresswoman maxine waters had to say earlier today. >> it is absolutely not to be understood that these two members of the senate can talk about this being too much. too much for whom? for people who have been ddenie, discriminated against, and excluded in every sector of our society, and simply to say this is too much money and reject particularly housing and child care and climate change, and all of this, is baffling to me. i don't get it. >> speaker pelosi has set october 31st as a deadline to hold a vote on this bill. democrats in the past have delayed that deadline, but they're really going to want to stick to it this time. that's for two reasons. president biden is scheduled to head to glasgow at the beginning of november for the u.n. climate conference, and the white house would like to go there and say, hey, look at this big package i just passed and look what it does to combat climate change. they don't want to show up empty-handed. second, on november 2nd, there's a governor's race in virginia, and it would help terry mcauliffe if he could hit the campaign trail and say look what democrats can do for you. a really critical and crucial few weeks for the president. >> i appreciate that report. lauren egan, thank you for joining me. >> joining me now, pramila jayapal. she's chair of the progressive caucus. i feel like we're going straight to the source as we talk with you because you're so involved with all of this. quickly, the halloween deadline, before we figure out how to get there, is that realistic? are we able to get something done by halloween. i say we, i mean you. >> it's always great to see you. we are trying to get this done as quickly as we possibly can. now, you know, i think deadlines are often arbitrary. if you remember, the bipartisan bill took five months to negotiate. all said, though, we're trying to get this done as quickly as possible. it does rely on those two senators, the 2% out of the 1%, because 98% of us agree that $3.5 trillion was the number. all the programs that are in there, the president agrees, 70% of the american people agree. but we have two senators, democratic senators, who are still not onboard. a lot of this depends on the two of them getting together, because they each want slightly different things, and coming back with a proposal of what it is they want to cut. do they want to cut child care, paid leave, cut climate change? what is it, because the price tag comes out of that number. so, you know, the deadline is there. we're working towards it, but of course, deadlines can always shift, and the important thing is we get this done for the american people. >> a.p. reports you told president biden his suggestion for compromise was too low. you put your number closer to $3 trillion. how did the president receive that? what did he say back to you? >> you know, alex, the president agrees with the $3.5 trillion number. remember, this is the biden agenda. as he keeps reminding the runt ra, this is a zero dollar bill at the end of the day. if you look at $3.5 trillion, it's over ten years. per year, it's 1.5% of gdp, so the president is with us on this. 98% of us are together. there's just two senators that are saying that they think it's too much. i think it's really important for us to remember that the price tag comes out of what we want to do. and your poll earlier that you showed shows that when the american people understand that we're talking about universal child care, where no family pays more than 7% of their income on child care or 12 weeks of paid family leave, or fighting climate change with real policies that cut carbon emissions or health care, providing dental, vision, and hearing benefits for seniors or lifting up our immigrants. those are the priorities of the progressive caucus and they're the priorities of the president. that's the president's build back better agenda. >> what other priorities of manchin and sinema? have you spoken with either of them? are you clear on what they want? >> i have spoken with senator sinema. i'm not going to get into the details. i know senator manchin and senator sinema have been speaking with the president. i thing this is the part that is frustrating for a lot of people. all of us. because the two of them don't have the same priorities. you know, one of them is very much fine with the tax pieces, for example, of this making wealthiest corporations and individuals pay their fair share, which by the way, alex, when you add that to the question about how people feel about this bill, the approval goes even higher up because people want the wealthiest to pay their fair share. particularly after what we have seen with billionaires raking in the money after covid. one, however, does not really support that. one supports prescription drug pricing negotiations so americans don't have to pay more. the other one really doesn't support that. they're not necessarily both being public about it, and i think that is the challenge. the two of them don't agree with each other yet. and 98% of us do. and agree with the president, agree with ourselves, agree with the american people. that's the challenge we're facing right now. >> yeah, you're talking some big hurdles there. let me ask about something i do know, which is regarding you, other progressives, you have talked about the idea of keeping all the programs, but for a shorter amount of time. we know that senator joe manchin is behind an idea to shrink the bill by limiting access to every program. he wants to do it for only those americans who need it most. so how do you feel about means testing? can you convince manchin to instead just shorten the length of the programs without it? >> well, that is the progressive caucus' position, that we want all of these five priorities that i mentioned in the bill, and if we have to reduce the price tag slightly, it would be through funding for a shorter amount of time. with the benefits accruing as quickly as possible, right? because we want people to feel the transformational effect of these policies. on means testing, i would just say that the way that most means testing has been structured in this country has been an abject failures. it erects administrative barriers that prevent the most needy people from getting the very benefits. if you have so many qualifications that you can't even figure out if you qualify. second, it actually adds enormous administrative costs because somebody has to figure out if somebody qualifies or not. that takes a lot of money. third and perhaps most importantly, the idea that we have simple ways for people to determine a universal benefit, and that you don't have a fiscal cliff where somebody making $1 over, right, is suddenly thrown off of a program versus $1 under, is very important. that's why a 7% universal cap on child care is a way of means testing, because if you have a really high income and you have to pay 7% of it out before you get any government assistance, that's a way of pushing out the wealthiest people while at the same time making sure two school teachers earning $68,000 a year in a high cost area like seattle are not going to be disqualified from that program. >> you certainly thought that out. let's move to the debt ceiling. the house is set to vote tuesday on a short-term extension to raise the limit. so that buys more time, certainly, but it does not put a solution there on the table. take a listen to what senator ben cardin told me yesterday about it. >> we're going to make sure we don't default on our debt, and we're not going to be using budget reconciliation because that process is likely to lead to failure. we're not going to do that. we'll figure out a way to get this done. we're going to make sure that we don't default on our debt. >> do you know how it gets done? because they say they're not going to use budget reconciliation to raise the ceiling. republicans made clear they're not going to help raise it. so how? >> the first fing, so all americans understand. when we raise the debt ceiling, it's to pay for debts that we already incurred. you know the trump administration incurred $8 trillion in debt over the last four years. and now, the idea that republicans are saying they don't want to vote to raise the debt ceiling, which by the way, has been bipartisan throughout our history. democrats and republicans, regardless of who is in charge have voted to raise the debt ceiling because it's about america and whether people trust us that we're going to pay our bills. now, they're not allowing that to happen. and of course, at the core of all this, alex, is something we have talked about before. the filibuster. the idea you have to get 60 votes just to move forward a vote on a bill. so a minority, it's a tyranny of a minority in the senate where 40 senators representing a tiny portion of the entire population of the country because of those particular states can block even democrats taking a vote on something as important as the debt ceiling. so i think we need to reform the filibuster. i think that's why mitch mcconnell got nervous at the end, because if we can't even pass the debt ceiling and keep the united states good to its obligations, then that might lead to a reform of the filibuster. which i believe is exactly what democrats should do. and i think mitch mcconnell got nervous about that and said all right, let's bring ten republicans along so we can at least have a vote, which only democrats took to raise the debt ceiling, and push the can down the road until december. not an ideal situation, but important to do in this moment. >> so i'm listening to our conversation, and there are viewers out there doing the same. when it comes to reconciliation, infrastructure, debt limit, what's your message to voters, our viewers here who might be losing confidence anything is actually doing to get done? >> well, that, i think, my message is we will get this done. but we have to hold fast and not let a tyranny of the minority, whether it's republicans in the senate not agreeing to reform the filibuster or whether it's a minority of senators, two, in fact, 2% of all democrats in the house and the senate not agreeing with the president, not agreeing with the american people. let's get those two to the table. we can deliver both infrastructure. we can deliver the reconciliation bill, the build back better act. and if we reform the filibuster, there's much more we can do. i really think we're at a point where voters delivered us the house, senate, and white house. if they don't see democrats delivering for them, then i don't blame them for losing faith, but hang in there right now. we're going to get this done. keep the pressure on, and let's deliver both these bills. it will be transformative for the country, alex. >> it's a sunday. let's say keep the faith. how's that? one more question. your thoughts on the subpoenas that have been set up by the january 6th committee. depositions are scheduled this week for steve bannon, kash patel, and dan scavino. what do you want to hear from them, and do you think we're going to hear from any of them by this time next weekend? >> it is absolutely essential that we hear from them, that we get accountability, that we know what happened. this is a bipartisan select committee that is investigating january 6th. and i think it's outrageous there are still members of the republican party that are saying that the election, you know, could have been stolen, not admitting that joe biden is the president, and not agreeing that anything even happened on january 6th. so the idea of criminal prosecution if these individuals don't come and testify, i think is absolutely right on. it's what we need to do, and it's the only way that america is going to find out what happened and get accountability for it and protect our democracy. >> can i ask you, at the top of the show you heard julie tsirkin reporting, and she played a series of sound bites from trump supporters and what they believe happened and gone on. i described my action as one jaw-dropping listen after the next. how about you? when you hear that kind of talk from trump supporters and know that those four that we heard from are by far from alone in these kinds of beliefs. how do we combat this? >> it is so difficult to listen to that because, of course, i was there on january 6th, alex. i was in the gallery. i was trapped in the gallery as insurrectionists were pounding on the door, trying to find us to kill us, trying to find mike pence to kill him. and nancy pelosi. it's stunning to me that people think that this didn't happen, that it was a setup, that it was a deep fake conspiracy, you know, theory thing. i don't even know how to describe the disconnect between the facts and sort of how people are thinking about it. and i blame donald trump, of course, but i also blame the republicans right now in congress who know much better, who were running for their lives, protected by capitol police on january 6th, yet now, refuse to actually say that it happened or to say to donald trump, you cannot be the leader of our party anymore. this is a moment of crisis for our country and our democracy. it is also a moment of real reckoning for the republican party. who are they going to be? just donald trump's party or the party of the big lie or actually standing up, perhaps for different policy ideals, but ultimately standing up for democracy. i think that's frankly a terrifying thought to me. >> i'm going to put an exclamation point to that. there are even those republicans who stood up immediately in the aftermath of january 6th and they have shrunk since and gone into the shadow of donald trump. always good to see you. have a good sunday. >> president biden's approval rating hits a new low in one prominent poll. up next, the issues hurting his popularity most and what he can do to navigate out of trouble. robert gibbs joins us next. introducing fidelity income planning. we look at how much you've saved, how much you'll need, and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when you're not working. a plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. along the way, we'll give you ways to be tax efficient. and you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. talk to us today, so we can help you go from saving...to living. dayquil severe for you... talk to us today, and daily vicks super c for me. introducing new vicks super c and dayquil severe convenience pack. vicks super c is a daily supplement to help energize and replenish your body with vitamin c and b vitamins. dayquil severe is a max strength medicine for cold and flu relief. someone is feeling better. get your shoes. alright! try the new vicks convenience pack. wealth is breaking ground on your biggest project yet. worth is giving the people who build it a solid foundation. wealth is shutting down the office for mike's retirement party. worth is giving the employee who spent half his life with you, the party of a lifetime. wealth is watching your business grow. worth is watching your employees grow with it. principal. for all it's worth. working at recology is more than a job for jesus. it's a family tradition. jesus took over his dad's roue when he retired after 47 year. now he's showing a new generation what recology is all about. as an employee-owned company, recology provides good-paying local jobs for san franciscans. we're proud to have built the city's recycling system from the ground up, helping to make san francisco the greenest big city in america. let's keep making a differene together. guys, as we get older, we all lose testosterone. force factor's test x180 works to boost it back. build muscle, increase energy, fuel desire, and improve performance. rush to walmart for test x180, the #1 fastest-growing testosterone brand in america. right now, things in washington, as you all know, are awfully noisy. turn on the news and every conversation is a confrontation. every disagreement is a crisis. but when you take a step back and look at what's happening, we're actually making real progress. >> president biden just this past week assuring the public that the country is moving in the right direction. this comes as his economic agenda remains in limbo with democrats battling over how much it should cost. joining me is robert gibbs, msnbc political analyst and former white house press secretary. always good to have you on the broadcast. thanks for joining me. the message from president biden there, not exactly it's morning again in america, and the circumstances now are vastly different, of course, but he is trying. given all that is percolating on his watch, how would you frame a message? >> well, i think, look, i think there's some big events that have really taken hold here and have affected this administration, really since january 20th and those evention are getting the economy moving again and getting covid under control. when voters go to the polls, the mesen he wants them to take is we as a country have made big progress on both things. they're not quick things, not short-term things and this really is what he's got to focus on and what he has been. in the last week, he's done events on the economy, on covid. i think continuing that message of we're all the path back is important for what he wants to do for the country and what voters most want to see and hear from him. so i think more of what they're doing is exactly what needs to happen. it's just going to take time. we didn't get here overnight. we're not going to get out overnight. >> today, there is some positive news for the administration to share. this at least from the new cbs poll. it shows president biden's approval number now at 50%. the build back better initiative is in positive territory. so how do you interpret this latest poll and could some of the less favorable polls rise if the sdraz sold their policies a little more cohesively, perhaps? >> on the general approval rating, what we saw, and this happened with the rise of the delta variant, you know, late july, beginning of august, we saw the president's approval rating go down. now we see the case load going down slowly but surely, but it's going down. vaccinations are on the upsing. his overall approval rating has stabilized because covid has gotten a bit more stabilized than it has been more in august and part of september. if you pull apart the build back better plan, it's enormously popular, tax fairness, help with health care premiums, help with child care. so real action to combat climate change. i think all of those things are popular. my message to democrats would be, we need less discussion publicly, quite frankly, on shows like yours on whether we're going to be at $3.5 or $2.1 or $1.5, and more on the graphic you have up, what is in this bill? what is this bill going to do to make the american people's lives better? extending child care tax credits. many of the things i mentioned before. increased educational opportunities, cheaper prescription drugs. those are the things we know people in america are looking for help on, and that's what this bill does. i think when we get to a point where we're having a greater discussion on those things rather than quite frankly having a televised negotiation around reconciliation, those numbers are only going to get stronger. >> okay. you have to think about that voting bloc that's pretty reliable to get out of the polls. talk about the medicare expansion as well. there's so much in this bill. let me ask you, though, insider here. how do you think the obama white house and president obama would have handled the two outlier democrats like joe manchin and kyrsten sinema? it feels like joe biden is singling them out, yet still trying to work with them. you know, is there a way to balance doing both? >> yeah, i think there's no doubt, look, the reality of this is there's going to have to be a little pressure put on everybody in this to come to an agreement and a compromise. we know that the infrastructure bill is not going to get done separately from the reconciliation bill. something the moderates wanted, something that the progressives want is $3.5 trillion, and we know that's almost certainly not going to happen because joe manchin has said that quite frankly for months. we're all going to have to meet in the middle for this. let's give some credit to the biden administration. we're talking about some significant change, likely to happen this fall. when we did health care through reconciliation in 2009 and 2010, the president didn't sign that into law until march. i think in many ways, as messy as some of this has felt, right, the sausage making we're all watching, the biden administration is actually ahead on the calendar. of course, you want this to be done without a lot of argument, quickly. i don't think that was ever going to be the case, and look, we have a majority of one person in the senate, we have three in the house. that makes everybody extremely important. and working through this is just what's going to have to happen. >> so this president has a lot of former insiders from the obama administration working for him. i'm sure you know many of them. do you have a sense of how they're viewing all of these issues that have arisen in the first almost ten months now here, and where their biggest areas of concern are? >> i mean, i do think it comes down to, as i said, i think what was animating them not long after joe biden was sworn in as president and what they're dealing with now are largely the same bucket of issues. i think, again, getting covid under control and getting the economy back. now we're talking about something slightly different than what they were at the very beginning of the administration in terms of economic stimulus. this is about how as that economy begins to improve, how we make it better for everybody. we don't want to go back to what we had. we want to build back better. i think that's what you'll see the focus on. i don't think democrats -- failure is not an option. democrats don't want to go into the 2022 midterms without a solution. i think that's in the end the real pressure that's going to bring everybody together to get something done positively for the american people. >> robert gibbs, if you say so. we appreciate your time. thank you as always. >> up next, they're devoted to donald trump and they want you to know about it. former president donald trump rallied in iowa on saturday, drawing thousands of people from across the midwest. some standing in a parking lot overnight just for a chance to see the former president speak. let's go to nbc's gary grum balk from des moines. you spoke with a lot of people in the crowd. what are they first of all saying about the possibility of donald trump running in 2024? >> hey, there. we have to start with a baseline. many of the folks we talked to do not believe donald trump lost the election in november in the first place. so with that as the baseline, i think they really do feel like they feel they're owed something for what they consider to be a fraudulent and corruption election in november 2020. i talked to more than a dozen people yesterday. every single one of them wanted donald trump to run in 2024. and the former president last night at the rally had fun with it. he came up with slogans for his campaign that does not yet fully exist. including keep america great, and make america great again again. boat got standing ovations from the crowd. i want to introduce you to one woman who says she wants to vote for donald trump and nobody else. >> i'm worried about the debt for our grandchildren and what's to come for them with all the changes that are being made. and something has to be done. we're dying back here. we need something great to happen. and i believe he's the answer. he did good for us before, and i support him 100%. >> the des moines register is out with a poll this week showing 92% of republicans in the state of iowa few donald trump favorably. that's a higher number than any elected official in the state, alex. >> thank you for bringing that to us. >> in just a moment, the consequences of police refusing to get vaccinated is public safety at risk. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ (brad) everyone is discovering the power of 5g. but we've been helping millions of rentersl them to the world. get into 5g for years... and also 6g. and 4c. and 2r. and 7l... apartments-dot-com. the most popular place to find a place. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - [female narrator] five billion people lack access to safe surgery. thousands of children are suffering and dying from treatable causes. for 40 years, mercy ships has deployed floating hospitals to provide the free surgeries these children need. join us. together, we can give children the hope and healing they never thought possible. it's a mission powered by love, made possible by you. give today. ever notice how stiff clothes can feel rough on your skin? 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>> well, alex, i can tell you st. paul police are calling this a horrifying tragedy, the likes of which they have not seen in st. paul before. this was a packed bar where multiple people started opening fire. police tell us the first called started coming in just after midnight. when they arrived on scene, they saw multiple victims suffering from gunshot wounds outside of the bar. they went inside and saw the same. altogether, some 14 people were rushed to the hospital with gunshot wounds. those people are expected to be okay. but a 20-year-old woman tragically died inside that bar. according to police, she was being consoled in the hands of her friend who desperately tried to save her. i want to read you a quote from the st. paul police chief. quote, in an instant, they found themselves caught in a hellish situation. we have the best investigators in the country and we won't stop until we find the people responsible for this madness. we understand multiple law enforcement agencies are assisting with this investigation. still a lot we don't know, but they're trying to get to the bottom of how this happened, why it happened, and who is responsible for these shootings so they can bring them to justice. at this point, they're not yet releasing the name of the 20-year-old girl who tragically lost her life. >> i can't imagine. just going out for friends on a saturdaynith. i know that probably details are sketchy at this point, but have you heard anything about a fight? anything going on inside? do they think it's multiple shooters or one shooter? has that been at all released? >> yeah, you know, a good question. we know that according to calls from 911 people, we know that there were potentially a fight that started. and police are confirming on the record right now they do believe there were multiple people involved in pulling the trigger. so multiple guns here. at this point, they're still talking to witnesses and trying to gather witness to try to get to the bottom of who the suspects are. at this point, they have not mentioned anything about having lead on who these shooters are. >> i know it will be forthcoming at some point. meagan fitzgerald, thank you so much. >> the coronavirus in the nation's first responders on the front lines in the battle over vaccines. police unions across the country are fighting back against mandates for officers, creating fears of shortages if officers resign or they get fired. let's go to sam brock in miami with more on this. sam, welcome to you. why are these mandates focusing on police right now? >> so alex, good afternoon. governments certainly are pulling the levers at their disposal, and police officers are government employees. to your question, the vaccination rates for many departments are lagging behind the overall population. we're seeing resistance from corners of the law enforcement community. in police departments nationwide, a crush of vaccine mandates are a flash point for officers faced with rolling up their sleeves or losing their jobs. seattle's police force planning for an october 18th deadline with hundreds still unvaccinated. >> please look yourself in the mirror and ask, are you doing the right thing by removing people who are willing to continue to serve this community. >> the backup plan for seattle pd if they lose significant staffing is to use all on-duty sworn personnel on foot patrol, responding to 911 calls if need. it's not just police unions bristling. in los angeles, the sheriff is denying a county order to vaccinate his force. >> the issue has become so politicized, the are entire groups willing to get laid off. >> other high profile conflicts include tucson, arizona, where the city faces a legal suit. >> we have the duty to obtain a safe and healthy workplace for employees. >> new york city, as mayor de blasio eyes a mandate for police and other age agencies despite strong opposition. >> in the context of a global pandemic. >> the urgency comes as more men and women in blue are dying from covid. recent funerals in florida and alabama highlighting a staggering trend. according to the fraternal order of police, more than 700 officers have died from covid-19 since the start of the pandemic, making it not only a public health crisis but a public safety crisis too. and alex, it is interesting to note in new york city, both the police and fire commissioners are supportive of a mandatory vaccine policy. also, according to the officer in memorial page, covid was the number one killer for law enforcement officers in 2020 and now in 2021. back to you. >> got to say, got to add it all up, guys. appreciate it. >> there's outcry over how republicans in texas have redrawn the congressional maps, and some democrats say it's more than unfair to people of color. the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief... voltaren the joy of movement most bladder leak pads were similar. until always discreet invented a pad that protects differently. with two rapiddry layers. for strong protection, that's always discreet. question your protection. try always discreet. ok everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. whoo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, now introducing ensure complete! with 30 grams of protein. new reaction today to gerrymandering plans being laid out across the country, and lawsuits and other challenges emerging as states embark on the first redistricting in decades that does not require approval from the department of justice. in many states, gop-controlled legislatures are breaking up black and brown communities that previously voted together. in the case of houston, texas, two black house democrats are being pitted against each other. >> this map was drawn by outside republican operative directed by the gop congressional delegation who promised they would engage with us as they have done in the past. to see this district that had been together for 50 years demolished by this state senate, insensitive in putting my dear friend al green and myself in the same district. >> joining me now, don callaway, susan del percio, republican strategist, and msnbc political analyst, and former florida congressman david jolly, msnbc political contributor. hello. glad to have you back on this sunday, as always. don, why break up these houston districts that are so symbolic when it comes to representation of black texans in congress? >> to dilute minority representation, to dilute student representation. representation from groups that are more likely to vote democratic. this is absolutely a partisan effort to break up districts that would be likely to vote democratic, thus making them more competitive, especially in suburban areas for the republican vote. not only that, you're taking out at least one of two really dynamic, really vocal, really experienced good legislators in sheila jackson lee and al green, both of whom have substantial power. you're eliminating substantial power for those districts in the state of texas, but it's a partisan play to continue to tip texas more in favor of republicans. >> i hate having the both of them pitted against each other because they're both outstanding and so devoted and so experienced. susan, you heard one of them, the congresswoman, saying the gop has engaged with democrats in the past when redrawing district lines. so what's changed? >> looks like the texas legislature is just playing hard ball, and i will say this. when you compare the two districts, the current one is clearly gerrymandered. there is a long skinny line that heads north and then west. so it is -- but it is something to go after two sitting members of congress, typically, you see this work out, as the congresswoman said, there are conversations. but let's be clear. it is not only republicans that are doing this. in new york state, the democrats are eliminating -- we have to lose one seat in new york. so they're eliminating a republican seat. when the governor was asked if she would use her influence on the redistricting process to increase the democratic majority, she said yes. while the republicans use it far more egregiously, yeah, the democrats aren't exempt from this either. >> no, 100%. all is fair in politics, kind of. with regard to this, david, you are talking about specifically in houston, what we are talking about. these are two high profile congress persons. could this backfire on the republicans? >> probably not. i'm laughing because i'm going to make a leap and guess i'm the only member of the panel who lost their seat in congress because the district was redrawn. it happened to me in 2014/2015 as a result of a court case. it provides a good contrast to what's happening in texas. it's this. there are always going to be winners and losers in redistricting. i was a loser in it. who draws those lines that creates the winners and losers? in my case, the voters demanded through a constitutional amendment that geography dictate. i lost my seat. three other moderates lost their seats as well. in texas, partisans draw it. republicans intentionally are trying to make this as painful as possible for democrats. what's at play here in those seats -- because they are minority seats. what has changed is the elimination of any preclearance, there's not a suppressing of minority voting rights. there are still claims that can be petitioned. but in the past, many of the districts would have to pre-cleared to approve removing minority representation. that's not the case right now. i expect we will see several challenges to lines across the country based on voting rights. it won't be as easy as in the past. >> i appreciate your perspective given the topic and your experience. okay, you three, stay with me. we have a former trump insider who has written a new book. probably makes you ask, how can we believe what you are saying now when you seemed like such a trump loyalist before? there's a fascinating answer to that next. t. try nervivenerve relief from the world's #1 selling nerve care company. nervive contains alpha lipoic acid to relieve occasional nerve aches, weakness and discomfort. try nervivenerve relief. tonight, i'll be eating lobster ravioli with shaved truffles. yes! you look amazing! no, you look amazing! thank you! thank you! thank you! thank you! thank you! thank you! haha, you're welcome. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom ♪ ♪ for me and you ♪ ♪ and i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ a rich life is about more than just money. that's why at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner so you can build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. what do we want for dinner? vanguard. burger... i want a sugar cookie... wait... i want a bucket of chicken... i want... ♪♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft. for the win win. every single day, we're all getting a little bit better. we're better cooks... better neighbors... hi. i've got this until you get back. better parents... and better friends. no! no! that's why comcast works around the clock constantly improving america's largest gig-speed broadband network. and just doubled the capacity here. how do things look on your end? -perfect! because we're building a better network every single day. working at recology is more than a job for jesus. it's a family tradition. jesus took over his dad's roue when he retired after 47 year. now he's showing a new generation what recology is all about. as an employee-owned company, recology provides good-paying local jobs for san franciscans. we're proud to have built the city's recycling system from the ground up, helping to make san francisco the greenest big city in america. let's keep making a differene together. let's go now to a fascinating development at the trump rally in iowa. here is the headline. trump hosts fast to his election lies as the gop establishment hugs him tighter. take a look at the video. chuck grassley, the deen of the republican senate appears on stage to pick up trump's endorsement, the same stage from which trump repeated complete falsehoods about the 2020 election results. today, a new warning from a former trump insider about trump 2024. >> i think now, because his base is reacting to him the way that it is and polls are showing that he is still very much the leader of the republican party and very, very few republicans are refusing to speak up about his role in january 6, but also this current attack on democracy with regard to election integrity, i think he is going to run again. that's why i'm speaking out the way i am. i don't want him to run again. i think people aren't remembering that if he does run again in 2024, he will have no guardrails, because he will never have to worry about re-election. so he will do whatever he wants. he will hire whomever he wants. that includes people of the january 6th mind. >> my panel is back with me. don, can you imagine an america where, as stephanie puts it, people of the january 6th mind are the ones in the white house? >> of course i can imagine it. we just had it. by the way, i walk around the streets of d.c. and i see the familiar faces still lurking outside of the standard restaurants and watering holes. they're still here. they're not giving up on their electoral prospects. they're plotting. there's so much to unpack in that video. i'm old enough to remember when chuck grassley was supposed to be one of the adults in the room who would reign in the trump presidency and make sure it followed the normal rails. now you see him. secondly, i think that all of us are somewhat guilty of this. we have to stop rewarding people like stephanie grisham who had opportunities to blow the whistle like others who walked away from being at the seat of power. i have so little respect for these people who write these books in an attempt to not only get fame but a couple of dollars when they could have stopped or impeded the progress of real tyranny when it was in progress. >> do you have respect for the people who write these books? how do they change from being trump supporters, then they say, that was not good? >> they don't change who they are. they change what they are saying. don is right, they go out there to make a few dollars. this is all about what i call reputation rehab. it doesn't work. donald trump will make them a target. on that side, on the republicans, and people on the left are right to call out or independents to say, what were you doing those four years? everyone on this panel spoke out against donald trump's behavior for the last four years. we called it out. and yet, we see these people from the white house, they resign two weeks before the election -- before inauguration? it's pathetic and so is she. >> we see chuck grassley getting the endorsement of donald trump, david. do you see a strategy emerging? are gop leaders aligning themselves simply to get past the primaries? okay, i stand with trump. get past the primaries. then is there wiggle room for them to pull back to the center later on? >> perfect question. there's not really wiggle room. but that's exactly what they realized. today's republican party, you have to be aligned with donald trump to get through a primary. if you are not, your political future is dead. being aligned with donald trump means perpetuating the big lie. you see that from people you wouldn't have otherwise seen that from before. some are true conspiracy nuts that believe it. others like grassley probably don't believe it. steve scalise probably doesn't believe it. but they have to do it to hold on and get through their republican primary or maintain their office. here is what they are counting on in '22 and '24. the macro conditions will favor republicans. for the house, it's redistricting plus macro conditions. they are counting on the question, are you better off or not? they will want to focus in on the economy, which is why this biden white house is working so hard to shore up the economy and make sure going into '22 and '24, the macro conditions support democrats. republicans get through the primary but lose like trump did. >> my sunday family, good to see you. thank you. we are back at the

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