it's a question we've asked before. are we past the worst of it? or is there the possibility of another wave coming? we'll address that today. plus, the latest on the 18-year-old student facing charges after opening fire yesterday during a fight at his texas high school near dallas. also, developing overnight, a federal judge blocked the enforcement of the strict, new abortion law out of texas. we'll look at where the legal fight goes from here. and the dodgers walk it off in l.a. last night beating the cardinals in the bottom of the ninth. it was a late night, willie. >> walk-off home run for chris taylor. highlights in a minute. meanwhile, republican and democratic leaders appear to be heading towards a deal to lift the nation's debt ceiling. minority leader mitch mcconnell offered a fix to work on a more permanent solution. msnbc's white house correspondent has details. >> reporter: what could be a short-term solution to the looming disaster, top republican mitch mcconnell offering democrats a deal to allow the government to extend its ability to borrow money to pay its bills for another two months. >> view that as a victory, a temporary victory, though, with more work to do. >> reporter: democrats blasting republicans for refusing to join them to raise the debt limit that covers past spending by both parties. an effort democrats say has always been bipartisan. president biden accusing republicans of playing a dangerous game. >> doesn't have to be this way. my republican friends need to stop playing russian roulette with the u.s. economy. >> reporter: republicans argue democrats rushed to pass trillions of dollars in new spending without gop support, so democrats, they say, should raise the debt ceiling on their own and that their offer gives them more time to do. >> it i'm not going to support this -- this craziness that my president biden and his new woke elect friends are trying to ram down the american people's throat. >> reporter: the debt ceiling is effectively the country's credit card limit now set at just above $28 trillion. not raised before october 18th, according to the treasury department, the u.s. will run out of cash and for the first time ever default on its bills. >> we would likely experience a recession. millions of jobs would be lost, and the pain we'd endure will pass the resolution of the crisis. >> reporter: the impact affecting most americans from plunging stock markets to rising credit card and mortgage rates. nearly 50 million seniors could stop receiving social security checks, members of the military unpaid and tax credits for millions of families delayed. >> peter alexander reporting for us. bring in nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. democrats seem to be receptive for the plan proposed by mitch mcconnell but it appears to just kick the can down the road by a couple of months where this massive question and the prospect of using reconciliation will be back on the table? >> yeah. make no mistake this was mitch mcconnell blinking a little bit allowing to are more time. earen if the deal comes together i think it will, it's a punt. moves the fight to december. mcconnell propose add two-part deal. get out of the way until december and then mcconnell says democrats will be expected to do all the heavy lifting through reconciliation at that time. democrats turned around and said, thanks for the first part of your offer. we'll go ahead and ignore the second part on the reconciliation piece. looks like we're going to have this entire fight all over again in december, with a slightly altered set of facts, altered timeline but could be potentially in a situation in december with the debt ceiling coming up, government funding that passed last week coming up in december and it's possible democrats could still try to iron out the infrastructure or the build back better reconciliation piece in december. looking at an enormous cliff of all of these things congress has to get done in the weeks before christmas. it's a lot, willie. >> as you say, not a resolution, really. it's a postponement of this big business in front of them. >> absolutely. >> it leaves reconciliation on the table, garrett. democrats don't want to use it in this case, most of them, anyway. what happens come december? mitch mcconnell saying giving you two months to figure 0 ut how to get this done? >> republicans say they'll sit on their hands this time, or next time. the problem is they didn't sit on their hands this time after saying that that's what they're going to do. look, democrats don't want to do the reconciliation panel. a., they don't want mitch mcconnell to win. b., still think it's potentially risky or time-consuming. there's a million ways to get screwed up, and they don't want to risk floor time they might need to do all of this other stuff. but this is all going to come to a head again in december. remember, mcconnell's been warning this time around since july democrats will have to do this through reconciliation. he's saying the same thing now. saying he's given democrats tons of time to get it done. the only thing i can think that might make it more palatable to do it through reconciliation for democrats couple december is if they've got all other big agenda items out of the way it might feel like a cleaner, easier thing to say, yeah. you know what? we've passed the stuff we set out to do. we'll do this, too, but, again, that assumes they're able to get all of those other big ticket items across the line and we're not in another huge traffic jam with a week or two to go until christmas. >> garrett, if you could stay, a couple more points to cover. earlier in the day president biden convened a meeting with top business leaders looking to ramp up the pressure on senate republicans to stop blocking democratic efforts to prevent a government default. >> we would expect that the markets will react very, very negatively, if we actually get to a point of a debt content type situation with a default. >> the actual default would be unprecedented. the effects would be cascading. so day one would be bad, but the cascading effects and ensuing weeks could go anywhere from a recession to a complete catastrophe for the global economy and i don't know why anyone would take a chance like that. >> so add to that defense secretary lloyd austin also sounded the alarm on the possible effects of the nation's debt defaulting. in a statement yesterday, austin wrote in part, "if the united states defaults, it would undermine the economic strength on which our national security rests. it would also seriously harm our service members and their families, because as secretary i would have no authority or ability to ensure that our service members, civilians or contractors, would be paid in full or on time." austin also noted benefits for 2.4 military retirees and 400,000 survivors would be at rick. austin the statement came as seven former defense secretaries issued a similar message yesterday warning congress it would be "a tragic to allow partisanship to now deny those critical resources." let's bring in former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense nbc news national security analyst jeremy bash, and jeremy, this is, from business, to defense, the president has really surrounded himself and kind of presented republicans with bad options here. >> yeah, mika. there are significant national security consequences to a debt default. first, it's unclear whether we would be able to even pay our troops. the reason we have an all-volunteer force of 2.1 million individuals serving in uniform is because they know that when they step out there's to fight and win our nation's wars we're going to pay them, pay them well, take care of their families, provide housing. it's unclear if we default if we'd ever be able to do that. second, we have to pay contractors to maintain our bases. this is military readiness 101. if we don't do that we're not going to have a ready, capable military. and, third, our standing in the world is at stake. if the full faith and credit of the united states is pierced, if it is shattered, because we can't function our democracy, then that's going to send a very clear signal to both our friends and our adversaries that the united states is on our back and i don't yo why, i don't yo why anybody in washington would do that and for that reason vice president cheney and secretary leon panetta, william cohen, bill perry, ash carter, secretary chuck hagel and jim mattis signed an urgent letter to the congressional leaders to take urgent action now to avoid those catastrophic consequences. >> certainly they would be massive and sweeping. not just for national security. the white house put out a report yesterday, garrett, if this were to happen it would probably trigary recession far greater than the one we saw in 2008, because so many countries around the world are still battling the pandemic, and are not in fisk's fiscal health to grapple with this. a recession now a depression, certainly global. i'm sewers. is there any decession in the republican ranks through your reporting? this is mcconnell's stance, what he wants to do, even if he blinks slightly leads to another deadline in december we'll all be up working late for. someone like mitt romney, who has defied the party before on matters of trump and other principles, or rob portman, others considered moderate republicans, you know, they recognize this is about spending that already occurred, including under republican presidents. why are they willing to go along with this bad faith argument that's about to curb democratic spending? >> i think for a couple reasons. i do think dissension in the ranks and may yet bethat may be part of the reason the deal isn't completely ironed out. yesterday i think it was roy blunt, member of mcconnell's leadership team told a couple of reporters he thought probably 45 republican senators who wouldish willing to sit on their hands and let democrats raise through regular order and not go through an entire filibuster process, the reconciliation process, that republicans had been putting out there. the problem, blunt said, the other five who could not be controlled. i heard a version of that from mcconnell, too, at his press conference also yesterday when i asked him why not kind of take the easy way out here? he said, that would require all 50 republican senators to get onboard. kind of made it sound as though that was not something he could ensure at the time. so i think the opposite of what you're suggesting may be true, in fact, that it may be majority of republicans willing to let this debt limit crisis be handled the easy way, but with a handful or so who wanted to force the issue, force democrats to do it through reconciliation. mcconnell may have chose ton say we're going to appear united long as we possibly can here and see if we can make the other guy blink. with time running short, that blink not coming we take this route instead. that's definitely going to be a focus of reporting today, but sort of the way i've seen the last couple of days playing out on this issue. >> nbc's garrett haake on this around the clock. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. victor yo defrancesco soto, the president's approal rating taking a bit of a hit. what is the way forward for democrats here? >> i think focusing on everyday americans. those americans who are not paying attention to congress minute by minute and i think going back to this debt limit discussion. the result of defaulting would are catastrophic for folks. folks who live paycheck to paycheck. folks in the top 1%, top 10% who don't necessarily need to depend on that, it's not going to affect them. so i think the president by highlighting the effect is winning with the public and also politically being able to gain points in pushing republicans forward. my hunch, you know, i don't know what is going on in mitch mcconnell's mind, but my sense of things is, he understands that for everyday americans, the effect of not getting that paycheck, of having been thrown into another spiral of a potential recession or even depression is going to be a lot worse for the electoral prospects in 2022 than dealing with, you know, giving in to quote/unquote president biden, because end of the day, folks are not going to feel in their pocket if we extend the debt limit, but they will feel it if we don't. >> so breaking news overnight in your state, victoria. a federal judge granted the justice department's motion to halt enforcement of the restrictive new abortion law in texas. in 113-page opinion the judge argued the law "unlawfully prevent women from exercising control over their lives in ways that are protected by the constitution." state of texas announced it will appeal the judge's order. in a statement attorney general merrick garland called the rule as victory for women in texas and for the rule of law. let's bring in former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, joyce vance. she's an msnbc legal analyst. joyce, good morning. what's the significance of this ruling and what does it mean for the future of this law? >> well, this ruling blocks sba, in effect ever since the supreme court previously declined to enjoin it. so as of this morning, texas women, people in texas, are free to receive the abortion procedure up until the previous designated time in texas, up until viability. but the problem here, willie, is that the state of texas took about, a little over an hour to file an appeal after judge pittman entered his very meticulous order. texas will ask the fifth secretary to rehear his decision. they will undoubtedly ask the fifth circuit to enjoin, to reblock the statute, to, again, prohibit abortion in texas. it is a confusing and complicated situation for people on the ground in texas, and part of what texas calculated when it passed this law was that that level of confusion about the rick of getting an abortion would lead to a drag on people's ability to exercise this fundamental right. so despite this ruling, it's a very groundbreaking opinion. it's very well-written. it says that the supreme court was wrong when it says there was no way to enjoy the state of texas from carrying out its law. nonetheless, very much an uncertain situation for people in texas. >> so, victoria, we remind people, sba prohibits abortion after six weeks or until a heartbeat is detected. what does this mean in the short term for this law in the state of texas? and also for what's going to happen down the road where this likely will end up again at the supreme court? >> all right. well, as joyce pointed out, this will very quickly end up before the fifth circuit. one of the most conservative courts in the country. so even though we saw a win for advocates here in the state it is likely to a fleeting one. in the meantime while this winds its way up to the supreme court. i want to emphasize, willie, talking about the texas law highlighting the ex-tremty of it. this is a law that does not allow for any exceptions. it's remarkable in the six weeks in and of itself but does not allow any exceptions in the case of rape, in the case of incest, in a case of danger to the mother's life. i think at the end of the day, this extremity is really what is going to hurt the law and hurt the viability of the law, because we know that not just in the united states but even in texas the majority of folks support the right to a legal abortion. about a third of americans support under any circumstance an additional 45% support it under certain circumstances. so we're really seeing an overreach that we've never seen before with regards it abortion here in this country. >> joyce, give you the final word here. >> well, i think victoria make as fair point about support for abortion. beyond that, if we look at this purely as a legal decision, and if we take out of the calculus whether people favor abortion or not, as a legal ruling what the supreme court did in the earlier matter was unprecedented, and judge pittman points out there is a clear right to obtain abortion prior to viability in this country and in that situation where the right is clear, courts have consistently enjoined laws like this. even courts that haven't wanted to, that have had really derogatory comments to make about the supreme court's jurisprudence have nonetheless enjoined the law. that's remarkable and unusual about this case. now the supreme court engaged in about one paragraph of pandering in the earlier case in comparison to this meticulously 113-page order will have a second shot at getting it right on the law, at least as long as roe versus wade continues to be good law in this country. >> we will be watching that. former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you very much for being on this morning. a new white house report is highlighting the positive effects of vaccine mandates. ahead of a trip to illinois for president biden today. the president is expected to tout the success of vaccine requirements in meetings with state and local leaders who have issued mandates of their own. according to the white house mandates have increased vaccination rates by more than 20 percentage points and many organizations. they have also reportedly helped cut the rate of unvaccinated americans by one-third. and the white house is also highlighting the positive effects of vaccine requirements on the economy saying mandates could return up to 5 million workers to the labor force. that comes as covid-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths continue to trend downward across the country. nbc news correspondent stephanie gosk joins us now from a hospital in harlem, which is add ministering covid vaccines. stephanie? >> reporter: mika, good morning. you know, all of those numbers are down, just like you said. cases, deaths, hospitalizations. it's really good news. especially for those southern states that were hit so hard, but, you know, we're coming up to fall. people are going inside, winter's coming, flu's coming and people are wondering, is it going to spike again? right? and, you know, health officials are actually sounding cautiously optimistic that the worst may be behind us. this was the scene in an arkansas hospital back in mid-july. just as the summer covid surge was taking hold. >> we hit the floor running, and all of us working extra hours. >> reporter: it's a its busiest the hospital had 70 covid patients. today there be 8. >> we hold our breath and wait and see but it feels much better as far as there's a lot more hope. >> reporter: it's not just arkansas. covid case numbers are dropping fast in other hard-hit southern states, like louisiana and florida. nationwide, the numbers are down nearly 40% since september 1st. >> can we be hopeful that maybe there won't be a surge this fall or winter? >> so there are no guarantees by any means. i am quite encouraged by the decline in cases we're seeing, because many more people have been infected unfortunately and now have natural immunity. also we know that vaccinations are increasing. >> reporter: and could go higher when 30 million children between the ages of 5 and 11 become eligible. possibly in the coming weeks. >> is it reasonable to expect that we will reach a point with this virus where it feels less like a deadly pandemic and more like the flu? >> i do think so. i think that as we use vaccines what we're effectively doing is taming the virus. taking off the table its ability to put people in the hospital, and, and kill us. >> a lot of people want to know, when are we going to stop wearing masks on planes? when are we going to stop sending our kids to school with masks on? do we have any better sense of that? >> well, we don't. that's why i've called, really, on the administration to develop a covid control strategy that defines our end points. define what's we're working towards. >> reporter: what most health experts do agree on is that the country is not there yet. >> there's still a lot of people unnecessarily winding up in the hospital, and experiencing deaths that could have been prevented. >> reporter: so the white house report is pointing to mandates driving down numbers. the other thing driving down number, too, booster shots that people are going out and getting. mika? >> uh-huh. well, the white house announced yesterday it's buying an additional $1 billion of rapid at-home coronavirus tests. what do we know about that? that could really make a big difference for people not sure they have covid. can't get to a test, or it's too hard to actually drive to place to get a test, because they have to work? >> reporter: yeah. you know, that epidemiologist i spoke to said her biggest concern, really, is whether these tests are affordable enough and accessible enough. the white house clearly sees that that's an issue, and that's why they're making this investment. what they say by end of december, there could be 200 million of these rapid tests as home, but really, mika, kind of a drop in the bucket if you think about it. a lot of people have to take a test every week, and i don't know about your personal experience, but for me, i have noticed with my children and things that we're doing in life it is just become a lot harder and at times very expensive to get these tests. you look at other situations, other places in europe where it is very easy, people get tested, they're accessible, can do them even on a daily basis. we really have to catch up, because it remains the only way to truly track this viruses. that's when we're going to go when we can take those masks off. >> totally agree. i've had that same experience especially with people i know. very cumbersome still. we should be in a different place. hopefully we get there. nbc's stephanie gosk, thank you very much for being on this morning. and still ahead on "morning joe," we'll be joined by senate majority whip dick durbin on the heels of mitch mcconnell's offer for a short-term debt ceiling increase. plus -- nikki haley outlines her vision for the future of the republican party. how farmer president trump fits into her plans. also -- transportation secretary pete buttigieg will be our guest this morning. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. vo: the damage it's causing is undeniable... climate change. and with the build back better act, congress can tackle it head on. with tax credits for clean energy companies that create millions of new jobs... ...and ramp up new technology and clean energy manufacturing. it means families pay less for utilities... ...and america becomes the global leader in clean energy it's time to build back better. and that means taking on climate change. with clean energy jobs congress: let's get this done bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ you get more with aarp medicare advantage plans from unitedhealthcare. like $0 copays on tier 1 and tier 2 prescription drugs. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ $0 copays on primary care visits. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ and with unitedhealthcare, you get access to medicare advantage's largest provider network. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ most plans even have a $0 premium. so go ahead. take advantage now. ♪ wow! ♪ wanna help kids get their homework done? 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'cause we are. an 18-year-old student is facing charges after opening fire during a fight at his high school in arlington, texas. nbc news correspondent sam brock has the story. >> reporter: from above, the picture of horror at a texas high school. officers running across school grounds with long gun as students barricaded inside classrooms. >> it was just, like, bam, bam, bam, and there were three shots. >> i feel like i'm going to have to go to school fearing that i'm going to get shot. >> reporter: the calls coming in to arlington police around 9:15 in the morning immediately sparking concerns of an active shooter. 18-year-old timothy simpkins is in police custody after turning himself in, but not before an hours' long manhunt ensued. >> this is not a random act of violence. this is not somebody attacking our schools. >> reporter: arlington pd says simpkins shot several people after an in-class confrontation. in total four injured including a 15-year-old boy fighting for his life after surgery and a 25-year-old man in good condition. heart-stopping moments for parents watching the situation unfold at the school of 1,700 students. >> you just, like, mama, just make sure you're here. >> not knowing if your kid is safe or one that's shot is the worst feeling. >> reporter: once the school was clear add the lockdown lifted, students were bussed to a nearby u unification center. authorities warning parents to check their kids' social media accounts after finding some students posted inaccurate information and false threats. >> if they're putting out threats on their schools they're going to be arrested and prosecuted. >> reporter: questions also mounting about how simpkins brought a firearm to school in the first place. >> our agents won't sleep working with partners here to figure how he got this weapon in his hands a come into school and cause this tragedy today. >> nbc's sam brock reporting. other news making headlines this morning, a morning news anchor is out of a job this morning. after refusing to be vaccinated. megan gray, co-anchor of "good morning mississippi" for 14 years, posted on facebook that she lost her job after refusing to be vaccinated, as required by her station's parent company. she wrote in part this -- in my opinion a forced decision to decide between a vaccination and the livelihood of an individual is a dangerous precedent. she made the decision not to get vaccinated partly because she already survived a case of the virus. according to the "washington post," it wasn't clear whether she left the station or war fired. the parent company declined to comment. that's stunning. a battle of power in idaho. lieutenant governor janice mcgeechen took the opportunity while governor brad little was out of the state to issue an executive order, an order little repealed as soon as he got back. the executive order banned schools and universities from requires so-called vaccine passports or mandatory covid testing. however, little repealed mcgeechen's order as soon as he returned from touring the u.s.-mexico border with a group of republican governors. this is the second time the state's top two officials have battled after little left the state. while the governor attended a conference back in may, mcgeechen took the opportunity to ban issuing mask mandates an order little rescinded when he returned the following day. mcgeechen elected separately is running to take her fellow republican's job next year and making it clear how they feels, willie. >> absolutely. high playoff drama in l.a. last night. the los angeles dodgers defeated the st. louis cardinals in last night's national league wild card game in dramatic fashion. >> reyes fires. swing and a drive. deep left field -- it's a walk-off! chris taylor! >> that is chris taylor hitting a two-run walk-off home run in the bottom of the ninth, and the place goes berserk. the dodgers move on to best of five division series against the nl west champion san francisco giants who barely held off the dodgers in the regular season for that division title. game one tomorrow night in san francisco. the other nlds matchup between the braves and brewers. the al division series begins today. the houston astros hosting the chicago white sox this afternoon, and jonathan lemire, your red sox visiting the tampa bay rays tonight. go back to that home run. that was the game with the hottest team in baseball, the cards, who had won 17 in a row until about a week ago. dodgers, 106 wins. season on the line. tie game, bottom of the ninth, chris taylor, an all-star this year sends them on to the next round. >> a testament to the depth of the dodgers where they can field a nearly all-star caliber player at every position despite having injuries. dramatic, dramatic win here. so disappointing for a dodgers team that won 106 games, defending champs, to get knocked out in a one-game playoff. i really like them. emphasizes you need to win the division. where we are now. dodgers/giants next round. both teams won 106 game. we talk a lot about yankees/red sox, but dodgers nearly as good a rivalry as that one or as idaho's governor and lieutenant governor. heated an feign base fird up to are that. and dodgers, buehler and scherzer, back for game three, that's going to be a lot of fun. far as the sox go, look. rays are really good. saying it all year. the class in the american league. testify. we've got a chance but playing with house money after defeating the evil empire the other night. >> you're not sandbagging much as the yankees predicting end of the world tonight? you think there's a shot against the rays. rays quietly talked about a lot, so good. doing it with no payroll, not a big fan base, bad stadium. just go out and win games. >> apparently opened up the top 69 tropicana game for this weekend. expecting 20,000 people there. stadium terrible. fans don't come out but the organization top notch. so deep. bullpen is electric, and their lineup is, there are no easy outs. it's the best of five series. yeah. let's go rays in two. >> okay. that's good. all right. coming up on tyranny, 20 lessons from the 20th century. best-selling author tim snider joins us with the addition of his book with lessons against authoritarianism. 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♪ allstate. here, better protection costs a whole lot less. you're in good hands with allstate. ♪ you're in good hands after my car accident, wondnder whahatmy c cas. so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris ci had no idea how muchw i wamy case was worth. c call the barnes firm to find out what your case could be worth. we will help get you the best result possible. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ i know the media wants to distract from the biden administration fail aid jend da by focusing on one day in january. they want to use that one day to try to demean the, the character and intentions of 74 million americans who believed we could be strong again and prosperous again and supported our administration in 2016 and 2020, but for our part, i truly believe we all ought to remain completely focused on the future. >> former vice president mike pence earlier this week downplaying the events of january 6th while blaming the media. redefining what constitutes the truth is one of the examples our next guest gives in his book "on tyranny: twenty lessons from the twentieth century" a new graphic edition of the book is out now and its author, professor of history at yale university tim snyder joins us now. i appreciate you being on the show. i want to mention jeremy bash is still with us and joining us for this conversation as well. prompt snyder, the truth has been threatened many times over. especially during the trump administration on levels that i don't think we could ever have imagined. also characters like donald trump, the cult-like quality, however you want to describe it, being able to really galvanize people based on lies and conspiracy theories. explain how that leads -- seems obvious, but i would like you to sort of break it down for us -- to tyranny? >> well, on the positive side, democracy depends upon truth. democracy is a process of self-correction. democracy depends on our ability as individuals and a society to reflect not just on what we did right but what we did wrong. on the other side, tyranny depends very often on a big lie. on an alternative reality, on something that divides friends from enemies, on something which allows people to permanently polarize, on something which allow as leader to become arbiter of what's real and what's not real. unfortunately, mr. trump's claims about what happened in the last election constitute a big lie of that kind so that now we have a political party, we have new laws, we have right-wing media which are inhabiting the alternative reality and trying to bring that reality closer to us. unfortunately, we don't just have a problem with a person. we have a problem with a structure of the big lie, and this is one of the reasons why i wrote the book. >> so given your extensive research on this. a lot of people, they're busy, they're working. the election is over. joe biden's president. the problem's past us. is that the case? or can you explain where we stand in terms of this issue, in terms of the threat to our democracy? >> yeah. i wish it were like that. i wish there were one person or another person, but unfortunately the problems we have in the united states are much more structural. we have an electoral system which is flawed and becoming more flawed. a political party using a big lie making it harder for people to vote and now the precedent of january this year which is very important of an attempted coup d'etat. the big story the next four years is whether we can actually have a democratic presidential election in 2024. like you say, it's hard to cover that story. what i try to do in the book is things can you do on a daily basis to make that scenario less likely. >> jeremy bash? >> timothy, i wanted to ask you about china and russia, two of the big joe oh political competitors to the united states. autocracies, countries that want to undermine democracy. how do you see the united states and our democracy faring in the geopolitical competition for ideas against putin's russia and xi jinping's china? >> that's a wonderful question, because it brings into light the fact that democracy has been in decline sadly not just in our country but around the world. we've been faring very badly because russia and china, different ways they're doing, mocking democracy. rather than provide an alternative, mocking democracy and mocking the values like truth on which democracy is based. if we're going to be able to respond to russia and china, we're going to have to ourselves assert democracy as a matter of practices and as a matter of values. we have to stop thinking about democracy is something that comes naturally to us because we're americans or naturally from capitalism and be able to say our system is much better than those systems. it is much better to live in a free society. we've been lacking in that. we've been complacent. >> jonathan lemire. that is what president biden's argument has been. heard him say it time and time again. the government needs to provide for its own people, it can be a means to take care of its citizens and a positive alternative to what we see in authoritarianism regimes. the vice president suggesting no big deal, former vice president. defaulting as a nation right now, possibly, that crisis not passed. just narrowly avoid add government shutdown. seems like the government right now isn't working for its people. how does that get better? >> well, i think the picture is a little more mixed than that. major legislation, made the lives of people better. we've gotten on top of this pandemic. it looks like. we're now reminding ourselves that the federal government actually can do things. can't just get out of the way but do things for people. i completely take your point. dock is challenged. it was challenged under lincoln. challenged under fdr, and every time democracy renewed itself it's come back not by doing the same things but doing more for the people. what our democracy needs is an idea of the future. it needs a notion that things can be much better than they are. it needs not just hope but needs a sense we could be a much freer people and a much more prosperous people. the alternatives in china and russia are only about bringing us down, making us less free. we have to have our own idea of what it's like to be a free country and look into the future with that idea. it's tough today. i agree for all the reasons that you give, but there is no better hope than the one we've got. so, thank you. >> victoria defrancesco soto has the next question. victoria? >> thank you, mika. professor, so we know that the media is a core piece of a democracy. right? free speech. free media. so in looking at where we are, can you grade us in terms of the united states, in terms of our resiliency given the media. we know we have different outlets, some put forth disinformation. given where we are comparatively with countries such at china and russia, where do you see us sitting and what do we need to work on in terms of our media health, media consumerism and health? >> a wonderful question. if it comes to our own mental hygiene, one of the things we need to do less of look at screens and do more of read newspapers and read books, just so they're not constantly all caught in the same social media algorithmically driven media. as a government, back to the previous question. one. things we're missing, a moon shot for local media. we are living in a news desert. most americans don't have access to reported news. most americans, therefore, don't have access to basic, the bake -- basic facts of their own lives. we know from history of russia, this is one step towards authoritarianism. only big centralized media. some do it better some worse. without local factuality people are drawn into nationally polarized conspiracy theories's we need to head that off. whatever people's political news give them the bake reality of their own lives to make decisions starting about the things that matter most with themselves and their friends and families. >> the graphic edition of "on terni" is out now. thank you very much, tim snyder, for being on the show this morning. and still ahead, the new netflix show that is so popular. the streaming service said there's a very good chance it's going to be our biggest show ever. we'll explain that ahead. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? 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korean game about to become the most watched netflix show of all-time. nbc news correspondent joe fryer as a closer look at the series and how it may usher in a new era of streaming. >> reporter: you'd be forgiven if you thought a show called "squid game" was a reality cooking competition. also very wrong. the series is, in fact, a korean thriller. a violent dystopian tale about people deep in debt playing a bunch of children's games hoping to win millions of dollars. you lose a game, they lose their lives. so popular, netflix recently said there's a very good chance it's going to be our biggest show ever. >> it has familiarized and brought a lot of attention to koreans and the korean culture in a very tangible way. >> reporter: and prove's netflix's investment in global content is paying off. >> invested in a lot of international content. why is that? >> that content that is very authentic to local culture and does exceptionally well in its home country can actually travel really well around the world. >> reporter: netflix made shows in 40 countries, and 97% of its u.s. subscribers watched at least one non-english title in the last year. something many needed during the pandemic. >> having the opportunity to watch shows like "squid game" out of korea is sort of like traveling a bit around the world. right? you get to experience another culture from your living room. >> reporter: other streaming services are following suit producing their own international shows putting the globe on the tv map. >> joe fryer reporting on "squid game," an international phenomenon. still ahead on "morning joe," with a possible short-term solution to the debt ceiling problem in the works, will democrats now be able to move ahead on infrastructure? transportation secretary pete buttigieg joins us just ahead. 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(woman) yeah, y-you did. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ discover card i just got my cashback match is this for real? yup! we match all the cash back new card members earn at the end of their first year automatically woo! i got my mo-ney! it's hard to contain yourself isn't it? uh- huh! well let it go! woooo! get a dollar for dollar match at the end of your first year. only from discover. it is just about the top of the the hour. a live look at the white house as the sun comes up over washington, d.c. welcome back to "morning joe." it's thursday, october 7th. the a.p.'s jonathan lemire and professor of university of texas victoria defrancesco soto are both still with us. joining the conversation, nbc news and msnbc national affairs analyst host and executive producer of show sometime's "the circus" and host of "hell and high water" podcast john heilemann. good to have you all with us. we start with comment former u.n. ambassador nikki haley made with an interview with the "wall street journal." in it she called donald trump a friend and said she would consult with him before launching a run for the white house. the former governor told "the journal," "in the beginning of 2023 should i decide there is a place for me, should i decide that there is a reason to move, i would pick up the phone and meet with the president" as in trump. "i would talk to him and see what his plans are. i would tell him about my plans. we would work on it together." back in april haley said i would not run if president trump ran. while haley stopped short of embracing trump's claims the election was stolen in her conversation with "the journal," she did say, "he has a strong legacy from his administration. he has the ability to get strong people elected, and he has the ability to move the ball, and i hope that he continues to do that. we need him in the republican party. i don't want -- i don't want us to go back to the days before trump." john heilemann, you're in texas. we're going to be talking about a lot of politics going on in texas there, the abortion law situation, but first, your thoughts on nikki haley's comments? >> hi, mika. good morning. my thoughts are, join the club. nikki haley. you know? i'm not sure anybody thought that this was, that nikki haley would end up any other place than where she currently is. that is, exhibited, in, there was a period of time people thought maybe she would signal a break from trumpism or be able to take's republican party back to a pre-trump era. that's clear for i think a couple years now that with her announcement she wouldn't run, if trump ran with her, various comments over the past year essentially where she's aligned herself with trump and made the decision as awe republicans have at this point, even though he's off the field, down in mar-a-lago, no power whatsoever. real power, to get anything done. donald trump remains the king of the republican party and everyone must kiss the ring and take a knee in front of donald trump. that's what you see. her prospects, i don't know. but she's in the mainstream of donald trump. that's still the basic line for her. i won't run if donald trump runs and if he doesn't run and i run, i must be on donald trump's side, no way to do it without his support and blessblessing. >> all this is moot if donald trump himself decides to run. saw it from vice president mike pence. same thing we're seeing from nikki haley. he went on tv, on fox news and said the media is basically overplaying what he called one day in january. january 6th. so if you have any hopes of running for president, it is a prerequisite, as john said, to express your loyalty to donald trump, show voters you are on board with donald trump and everything that comes with that including the insurrection on january 6th. >> so, willie, i'm especially intrigued by nikki haley and like all of the other potential gop runs, they're deferring to trump. he is trying to walk a fine line, though. she did stop short in that "wall street journal" interview of supporting the steal, but i think that i want to pull back and look at the demographics of our electorate and thinking about what shifts we've seen in the last couple of cycles, and, you know, one thing that stood out is that donald trump really defied expectations and wad able to make in-roads with communities of color. we know that he in the past, especially in 2016, did extremely well with republican women as well. so when i'm looking at a nikki haley candidacy, i'm wondering if this is the best of both worlds for the gop, where you have someone that still has that linkage to trump, loyalty to trump but also turning a new page. you see a woman. you see a woman of color. you see somebody from the south. so i've always been intrigued by nikki haley, and even going back to when she served in the trump administration briefly. how she tried to be with donald trump and also separate herself a little bit when ambassador to the u.n. i think this is someone i'm watching closely as we get closer and closer to 2023. >> john heilemann, would it be more intriguing, though, if she broke away? clearly she's not going to. everyone's not surprised. she's done many things along the way that have been kind of painful to watch. having said that, is fealty to trump a requirement? if we could turn the question around on you and ask politically, are there any benefits for a nikki haley to break away and forge her own path? >> well i think, mika, the question is, given what nikki haley has done. gave a couple interviews last year where she suggested, a sense she was maybe going to try to do what you just suggested, and then she backed away from it quickly realizing the price was too high. her perception of the price was too high. i don't know if nikki haley can do what you're suggesting. the larger question, is there some road for a, a republican conservative to break away from the cult of trump? is there a path for anyone? i take the point a female candidate, non-white candidate, would be a particularly interesting thing. putting together a frankenstein candidate forging a path for the republican party you would start with maybe a female non-white candidate. not many in the republican party, to be honest. that question, is there a path a way? i don't think there is a way. candidly, a lot of people in the media would find it very appealing for some kind of a, a reincarnation of john mccain. a new kind of trump era maverick who would stake out anti-authoritarian, anti-autocratic, anti-trump positions and try to supposedly lead the republican party back to its traditionalist roots. they would have a giant amen corner in the media. people cheered on all day long. look at polling's donald trump is the most popular figure in the republican party with republican voters. none of us like it. all of us think it's a sign of a sickness, profound sickness in the republican party. why it's a reflection of the authoritarian and repressive tenants in the republican party. donald trump has close to 90% approval rating. not just perceived to be most powerful, he is most powerful in the republican party and i'm not sure of electoral prospects for anyone who decides. not wrong, these people taking a knee for trump. not wrong that's required in today's republican party. that's the totality of trump's takeover of the party. he is -- he is the king. >> john heilemann, it's jonathan lemire. one step further, but first a quick congrats on your dodgers. >> thank you, sir. >> the people i've talked to in trump's orbit, in recent weeks, people very close to the former president, say momentum is definitely building for a run. earlier this year sort of the suggestion he was leaning against now, you know, saying, no decision made officially, but, like, all signs are there. they fully believe he is going to play this out for a while and then barring something unexpected take the plunge and run again. assume he is running. are there any republicans out there, significant underdogs, you outlined, who will take him on? like the liz cheney's of the world. right? a suggestion chris christie someone sort broken from trump, not fully but sort of. might represent himself as a republican in a different lane. beyond them, who else is out there and what chances would they have? >> well, who's out there, jonathan? first of all, i will say, going into these wild card games. the two teams i care about, dodgers and your red sox. playing the two teams i, i wanted to see vanquished the most and the teams, their defeat gives me most pleasure, yankees and cardinals. it's great for all of us. that's the first thing to say. second thing is, you know, trump's going to run. i mean -- it's this simple. calculation, he's not in jail, or rendered bankrupt by some other external forces. think about it this way. what does he want most? attention, the megaphone back. there's not a world where twitter can keep donald trump banned from the platform if he announces candidacy for president. he'll get back on twitter and he wants that attention and megaphone. is there anyone who could go that way? you said chris christie. if you picked the most anti-trump things that christie has said since, say, since election day of last year, you could say, well, that looks like the path chris christie is trying to forge. take all the other things he's said, which have been doing the same thing mike pence and nikki haley are doing. he even -- even he kind of promises he would stake out this independence from donald trump. i'll take donald trump on, on the hard truths. then he goes and does a lot of things in conservative media making it clear he has to hedge his bets. adam kinzinger decides to run for president, all due respect to the congressman, he would get less than 1% in the republican primary's these are -- liz cheney is a hated figure now in the republican party. i admire her courage and individualism enormously. she ran for president, she'd get 1% of the primary. i don't think anybody with brains thinks there's a space for them in a republican primary. >> he clears the field and nibbling by mike pence and nikki haley is just in case he decides not to run. talk about what's happening now in washington. working on a temporary deal to lift the nation's debt ceiling. a short-term extension to give democrats to work on the bipartisan infrastructure build and the larger build back better reckon siltiation package. a lot going on. joining us, secretary of transportation, pete buttigieg. mr. secretary, good to see you this morning. the debt ceiling question is in front of us, but let's look ahead to infrastructure. stand-alone infrastructure package $1.2 trillion then the bigger build back better. as that begins to get pared down, mr. secretary what do you think is crucial from your point of view that stays in? what has to be there, in your eyes? >> well, the bottom line is that we've got to deliver on the president's vision that, by the way, america agrees with on how to make life easier for families. how to improve access to health care. how to tackle climate change and do that alongside what we've already got that bipartisan agreement on which is the importance of infrastructure. these are things that have been needed for a long time. things that command enormous support from the american people, and as we work to get this done, this isn't just going to be about pulling us out of the immediate concerns in the pandemic era but laying a foundation that will make life better in this country for the rest of our lives, which is why i continue to believe this is going to get done and that it's going to be big. >> to that point, mr. secretary, we're talking a lot about hard infrastructure. fixing the roads and bridges. that obviously needs to get done. when we've talk and it before, you've looked over the horizon what needs to get done. what about isn't what we think about when we talk about the roads and bridges? >> obviously at transportation secretary i'm mostly working with the physical transportation infrastructure, called hard infrastructure but you need more than that to have a country unfold and reap prosperity for a new generation. that's why there's such a focus on things that make education more affordable. things that make it easier to get health care. child care, which is a lot on my mind, especially now that i'm a new parent and seeing firsthand just how important that is. these also, and this is really important to remember, this is about making sure that america is in the lead. the president often talks about how we've got to make sure the u.s. wins the future. the sad reality is, we've fallen behind in the tables of developed nations. not just on infrastructure. we all know our roads are crum crumbling, falling out of the top ten when it comes to condition of our roads, airports and ports and so on, but you're seeing that also in terms of the standard of living as measured by things like access to health care. like access to education. now, whether talking about pre-kindergarten education or community college, things like family leave. things that people in developed countries can more or less take for granted, except in the united states of america. so, frankly, we've got catching up to do, let alone if we want to once again be able to confidently say that we are positioned to be the lead be country in the world for the rest of our life times. you've got to make sure that this, what you call infrastructure, call it that or not, healthy family life needs to be laid alongside that physical foundation for moving people good and safely around the country, have -- which is of course what i'm working for all the time. >> i want to ask you about the labor shortage, and the white house set up the supply chain disruptions task force, but we're seeing across the country an issue with this. with companies not being able to do work, because supplies haven't come in. but, also, with people who won't come to work. labor shortages that is literally crippling small businesses, and creating scenarios that are unimaginable. whether it's restaurants or stores or major department stores or small businesses that try to provide services and products to people. this is kind of at a fever pitch at this point. i -- i kind of feel like i'm not sure exactly how this is going to sort itself out. is there something specific being done to deal with these two issues at the same time? >> yes. this is a major challenge, and this is something that's been a major priority for the white house certainly for our department. it's why the white house set up this task force, and what we're looking at is basically everything between those ships and your shelves that gets the goods to where they need to be. part of that is things like physical infrastructure. part of that as you say is labor. and, look, obviously, it's an incredibly complicated situation. we're talking global supply chains and mostly private sector systems, but we have a big role to play, and that's why we've been convening all of the different players. for example, how roundtables are bringing together everybody connected to the ports. operators, owners, labor unions, shipping. remember, a lot of this isn't -- when you look at backup on the ships, for example, isn't just about the ships. if they're in this photo, the ship is there. the question what's in the way of the container getting off the ship and out to where it needs to be? a lot of that goes to the other parts of our transportation system. look what's going on with the trucking industry. real concerns with the availability of truck drivers. at large truck operators, the rate of turnover for truck drivers has been around 90%. that's clearly, at least in part a labor issue. we're partnering with the department of labor to try to establish more apprenticeships and address that. some officially getting the containers on to our rails. some all the way at the other end of the supply chain. working at the task force has been doing with the big box stores, for example, that are placing a lot of these orders, to smooth things out and create more certainty. it's every single piece of this incredibly complex process that gets goods often from abroad all the way into our homes, and some of these things have been years and years in the making, but as we've seen with the pandemic, as demand came back, income came back, people started ordering more goods than ever. the workers -- by the way, look at the long shore workers, for example. they have lost members' lives to covid. yet through this period they have handled record levels of cargo. but keeping up is a huge challenge, and so the work that the workers have been doing, the way that you've seen ports like the port of long beach in l.a., between them, a process of about 40% of our container traffic expanded gate hours and availability, and got a lot of different people pulling together to help address this issue. it's a long-term issue, but we can take short-term steps. that's exactly what the president has been calling on us to do through this task force. >> secretary buttigieg, good morning, it's jonathan lemire. i want to go a little further on this. some major retailers are warning americans they need to do their christmas shopping right now. that even though it is early october, christmas is still 2.5, nearly 3 months away because of supply chain issues and delays. it's going to be very hard to put christmas presents under the tree. holidays, presents, in time for december. nervous democrats said to me in recent days, a real political problem. if things are delayed. certainly the blame inevitably in these things, at least in part, end up at the white house. what assurances can you give today that some of these measures will help and that some of these supply chain problems will be alleviated by christmas and what is sort of the long-term idea to just when things will get back to normal? >> well, i can tell you some of these short-term steps are already making an impact. we're seeing again, for example, expanded gate hours at major ports of l.a. and long beach. we've seen good news about the through-put of things making their way on rails at that port, cutting the down time you have. work doing on labor and trucking company making an impact. but many issues built up over the very long term and have to do with the very structure how we get so many of our goods from overseas. we're going to continue to see a lot of challenges. not just going into the next year or two, but going into the long term, and that's one of many, many reasons why we have such a sense of urgency about getting this infrastructure bill, this bipartisan infrastructure vision through, because we know part of the solution is making the right investments in our ports, in our, on our rails. on our roads. so we have a more flexible supply chain. so that whenever you have shots, dramatic shifts in demand, like is happening now, helping lead to those bottlenecks that you see, the supply chain is flexible enough to deal with it. >> secretary pete buttigieg, as always, great to have you on, and i can't help myself. you have twin babies, penelope and joseph, and i just wonder what has surprised you most about new parenting? >> well, it's -- i mean, it's been wonderful. it's everything people tell you to expect and more. i think the biggest thing that surprised me is just how hutch -- how much joy even in the hard parts. don't get me wrong. it's incredibly the most demanding thing i think i've ever done, that we've ever taken on but amazing. i used to think 5:00 a.m. is early. now i think of it as nap time if i'm lucky, and yet i catch myself grinning half the time. so -- thanks for that. we're just over the moon. >> really happy for you. congratulations. it's tough. twins. thank you, mr. secretary, pete buttigieg, for being on the show this morning. john heilemann, you're in texas. what are you reporting on for the "circus" there? >> you know, we're out here, mika, doing an episode strictly all from the state this sunday night about what has happened to the republican party in the state of texas, where you know, as you know, we've seen an extraordinary flurry of legislation here that kind of, typifies the furthest right, most severe, most extreme legislation in any state in the country. if you take the full speck strum spectrum of it. abortion bill, most attention but stuff going on on the border, related to guns. texas republican party, which dominated the state now, despite predictions -- huh, for a decade texas was about to go blue or at least become purple. hasn't been a democratic governor here since 1994. hasn't been a democratic lieutenant governor here since 1998. both state of the houses of state legislature republican for, for more than a decade. the house has been that way for 18 years. senate longer. you've had one party rule here for a very long time. what that has led to is a very kind of perfect picture how a republican state party, then throw donald trump into the mix, has become, has become both corrupt and become driven entirely by internal republican politics so it's gone in the way we've seen it. everybody is scared getting primaried and drive further and further to the right and it's beened vanguard, with donald trump out of office. not republicans in congress, again, no the majority there. look around the country. where's the action in the republican party? it's the state parties. there's nowhere there's more action so to speak and horrifying action in many ways than what's happening in the texas republican party. looking at that. how did that happen and what does it mean? >> interesting. victoria defrancesco soto as professor and resident of the state, your thoughts on what heilemann is looking at, and the state of the republican party in texas? >> well, first off, welcome, john, to the great state of texas. have breakfast at jo's bakery here in austin. >> hmm. >> so a good friend of mine and colleague of the lbj school stephen petigo published and ob edd in the "new york times" this week that juxtaposes this extreme social moral policy that john is talking about with the fact that texas over the last two decades has been charging hard on becoming "the" most business-friendly state in the nation. so wooing corporations here. wooing technology. austin is destined to be the next silicon valley. so in generating this business environment it has grown and brought those folks over, and now you have this contrast between folks who, you know, want to focus on growth, don't really care what happens in the bedroom, and folks who are solely focused in our state legislature and governor's mansion on those moral and social issues, and this is a very interesting fight that is being set up. we're starting to see the top executives, business owners, say you know what? we don't support this. we're going to push back against this. we're going to allow our employees to relocate if they want given the abortion bill handed down in texas. so this, you know -- it's still slow in coming, but if texas still wants to hold on to that business-friendly brand, something is going to have to give or otherwise they're going back to a purely socially and morally conservative state. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," senate majority whip dick durbin has criticized republicans for blocking attempts to raise the debt ceiling. comparing it to running out of a restaurant without paying. we'll ask him about mitch mcconnell's new offer for a short-term deal to suspend the nation's borrowing limit. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. as someone who resembles someone else... i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ (vo) i am living with cll and i am living longer. thanks to imbruvica. imbruvica is a prescription medicine for adults with cll or chronic lymphocytic leukemia. it will not work for everyone. imbruvica is the #1 prescribed oral therapy for cll, and it's proven to help people live longer. imbruvica is not chemotherapy. imbruvica can cause serious side effects, which may lead to death. bleeding problems are common and may increase with blood thinners. serious infections with symptoms like fevers, chills, weakness or confusion and severe decrease in blood counts can happen. heart rhythm problems and heart failure may occur especially in people with increased risk of heart disease, infection, or past heart rhythm problems. new or worsening high blood pressure, new cancers, and tumor lysis that can result in kidney failure, irregular heartbeat, and seizure can occur. diarrhea commonly occurs. drink plenty of fluids. tell your doctor if you have signs of bleeding, infection, heart problems, persistent diarrhea or any other side effects. i am living with cll and living proof that imbruvica is right for me. ask your doctor if it's right for you. i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! 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>> most definitely. us four all felt heard when we got to speak in front of the u.s. senate. >> reporter: nichols one of four gymnasts including simone biles saying the fbi failed them. >> feeled like the fbi turned a blind eye to us. >> what is the point of reporting abuse if our own fbi agents are going to take it upon themselves to bury that report in a drawer? >> i remember sitting there with the fbi agent and him trying to convince mean it wasn't that bad. >> reporter: the justice department insists it is on it. >> you can be assured there is a sense of urgency and gravity with the work that needs to be done. >> reporter: urgency and gravity that the women say is six years and many victims too late. >> nbc's anne thompson with that report. some other developments now with the coronavirus. the city of los angeles approved one of the strictest covid-19 mandates in the nation. the new measure requires the shot for anyone age 12 and older before entering bars, gyms, restaurants or other indoor facilities. the city council voted 11-2 in favor of the ordinance which is expected to take effect in early november. a negative covid test within 72 hours will be required before entering places for people with religious or medical exemptions for vaccinations. and the world health organization yesterday recommended the world's first malaria vaccine be given to children across africa. first developed in 1987 by glaxosmithkline it is the first malaria vaccine to be authorized. however it is only about 30% effective, and protection fades just after months. given that the life-threatening parasitic disease, more than 260,000 alone african children under age o 5, scientists say the vaccine could still have a major impact. coming up, our next guest is calling on senator chuck grassley to apologize for comments the senator made to a korean-american judge. we'll play that for you next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ bipolar depression. it made me feel like i was trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of people living with bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place... ...and be hard to manage. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. latuda is not for everyone. call your doctor about unusual mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. elderly dementia patients on latuda have an increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, as these may be life threatening... ...or uncontrollable muscle movements, as these may be permanent. these are not all the serious side effects. now i'm back where i belong. ask your doctor about latuda and pay as little as $0 for your first prescription. vo: taking on climate change. and pay as little as $0 this is our moment to get it right and here's how we do it- by putting the american auto worker on the job. building the electric cars and trucks that take us where we need to go without the pollution that's warming the planet. the cars we love, the trucks we depend on, all made right here in america by union auto workers. more electric vehicles, that's how we build a clean energy future, that's how we take on climate change. 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"vanity fair" printed an excerpt that reads in part "i made my way down the hall to the well and joined the remaining members and staff filing out. looking back at the doors being hammered to the rear of the chamber. glass now shaltering. police officers pushed large cabinets in front of the doors and would soon draw their weapons. you can't let them see you, a republican member said to me. he's right. another republican said. i know these people. i can talk to them. i can talk my way through them. you're in a whole different category." 'at first oddly touched by these gop members and their evident concern. that feeling soon gave way to another. if these republicans members aren't joined the president in falsely attacking me for four years i wouldn't need to be worried about my security. none of us would. i kept that thought to myself." congressman adam schiff will be our guest next week to talk about the book, but, kurt, there are now subpoenas to hear from people very close to trump world, to donald trump himself, to testify about what happened on january 6th, and in the days leading up. if they don't show up, what should be done? >> well, mika, i'll tell you. it's been very clear of the postures for those close to trump they're not going to comply with the subpoenas. anytime a subpoena, judge it illegitimate subpoena, a term that doesn't actually legally exist and try to run the clock out. i think we're going to see the same type of battle commence on the january 6th committee. this is why the democrats, you need to enact reforms that congressman ted liu put forward allowing you to unilaterally find anyone who defy as subpoena up to $100,000 each time. there needs to be more enforcement of the congressional subpoenas, because i tell you, we spent the last four years watching a wrecking ball take ton checks and balances that completely decimated and undermined congressional authority. we need that check and balance put in there for a reason. if we allow a domestic terrorist attack on american soil to go unanswered, if we allow the architects those who profited from it, egged it on, supported it, those trying to whitewash its history right now, if we allow them to get away without talking under oath before congress i don't know what the hell we're doing. i don't see the point of it at all if that's what we put in place going forward. there needs to be more enforcement and congress has authority to give that enforcement to themselves. >> i would add, don't wait for it to happen. you know it's going to happen. don't be shocked. get ready. and do exactly what you're talking about. kurt bardella thank you very, very much for coming on this morning. still ahead, subverting justice. a new report starts with that jarring title, and it just keeps unfolding from there. senator dick durbin is here with new findings from the judiciary committee on the former president's pressure campaign to overturn the election. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." with voltaren arthritis pain gel my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pain pills voltaren is the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief... voltaren the joy of movement to be a thriver with metastatic breast cancer means asking for what we want, and need... and we need more time. so, we want kisqali. living longer is possible and proven with kisqali when taken with a nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor in premenopausal women with hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's significantly more effective at delaying disease progression versus a nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor alone. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. avoid grapefruit during treatment. kisqali is not approved for use with tamoxifen. ask your doctor about living longer with kisqali. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love kisqliberty mutual.oved for use with tamoxifen. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ as someone who resembles someone else... i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ it's moving day. and while her friends are doing the heavy lifting, jess is busy moving her xfinity internet and tv services. it only takes about a minute. wait, a minute? but what have you been doing for the last two hours? ...delegating? oh, good one. move your xfinity services without breaking a sweat. xfinity makes moving easy. go online to transfer your services in about a minute. get started today. after an eight-month investigation the senate judiciary committee today will release a report on how the trump administration attended to subvert the law in an effort to keep the president in office. the report provides new details on the efforts of then acting assistant attorney general jeffrey clark as he attempted to do the bidding of president trump. joining us now, chairman of the judiciary committee, democratic majority whip senator dick durbin of illinois. so, senator durbin, you just rolled out this report. we're getting our first look at it. let me start with jeffrey clark, a name i'm not sure most americans are familiar with. who is he exactly and what did you find he did in the days around january 6th and in that attempt to overturn the election? >> jeffrey clark played an out-sized role in the effort of the president of the united states to overturn the results of the last election. i don't know how he came on the scene originally. we think it might have been through a pennsylvania republican congressman. he was head of the civil division in the department of justice, and the acting attorney general at the time, jeffrey rosen, and his deputy attorney general richard o'donoghue noticed all of a sudden his name was popping up in conversations with the white house. and he was making statements to people about what the department of justice should do. certainly not within his responsibilities as head of the civil division. ultimately, he became the choice of the president, donald trump, to replace jeffreytrump, to replace jeffrey rosen and rosen and donahue resisted the president ins efforts to subvert the election. >> and you find direct pressure from the white house with mark meadows putting pressure on the department of justice, jeffrey rosen and others saying you need to initiate investigations of fraud in the elections that president trump lost, state-by-state elections. so what was mark meadows' role here in your investigation? >> you have to recall it was a long tradition between the department of justice and the white house as to contacts made suggesting activity by the department of justice. i think the strongest pillar was established during the watergate era where they saw richard nixon trying to manipulate the white house, the saturday night massacre and all that followed from that. so, they followed standards that basically said there are a limited number of people and number of contacts between the white house and department of justice. i'm sorry to say mr. meadows broke that very basic standard and started pummeling the department of justice, under jeffrey rosen, trying to get them to take actions and investigate things one after the other. it was a clear breakdown in what was supposed to be a trusting relationship between the two. >> your committee had closed-door interviews with the former acting attorney general jeffrey romp, and he described pressure directly from the president. i think it was nine phone calls from former president trump to jeffrey rosen. having he described those phone calls, what was the president asking him to do? >> the president was relentless, as soon as william barr announced he found no wholesale fraud in the election results and announced he was leaving. that is when the president of the united states decided to put full court pressure on the new acting attorney general jeffrey rosen. as i said before, he was relentless. when you look at the number of contacts, we're waiting for even more evidence to come in on that subject he was really pushing the department of justice to bend to his political will. i will tell you, i don't think i'm overstepping the case, we were a half step away. if rosen would have folded and other members of the leadership and department of justice were not willing to stand behind him, i give him president for that. we could have seen the attorney general of the united states pushing for the election results to be ignored by governors in states across the nation. it could have been catastrophic. >> senator durbin, morning. it's jon lemire. sort of remarkable we're coming up on a year of the insurrection. and we're learning how much has happens, the perilous days as you said, from what already did. my question is what comes next? where else are the probes going and what sort of consequences will there be for some of those? >> well as far as mr. clark is concerned we've notified the officials in d.c. as we believe there's serious questions whether she should be still be licensed to practice law, in light of the context disclosed in his testimony and evidence. that's one thing. but the bigger question is why are we holding back? well, the reason is, mitch mcconnell and the senate republicans said they would not participate in a bipartisan commission to investigation january 6th and what led up to it. and this was part of the entry into the january 6th episode which we all remember. luckily, a select committee in the house, a bipartisan committee appointed speaker pelosi and congresswoman cheney and is pursuing this as they should. we have turned over our results to them. and made sure we didn't jeopardize any of their activities. but that is a very viable and credible effort to get to the bottom of a lot of these questions. >> senator, you mentioned now senate minority leader mitch mcconnell, i want to get your danger on his offer yesterday, about the debt ceiling, offering an extension, if you will, pushing the deadline down to december, but still very much clearly saying, hey, this is democrats and democrats alone. this is your problem, you've got to fix it. what do you make of that? and what do you make of the overall approach to it? >> i'll tell you, it's a very dangerous approach. and he is risking the economy of the united states. we have literally never defaulted on our debt. our credit raiding is strong in the world because we pay our debts as they owe occur. senator mcconnell decided to challenge that basic premise and say we could default on the debt as part of his political strategy, that finally in the cold of morning when he looked at what the results could be, he changed his mind, i'm glad he did. now, we've got to make sure we have a process without this political drama. the drama itself costs the american economy, it threatens to raise interest rates and jeopardizes job and it was an irresponsible effort. we at least have until december to finish the work we have to do with the bipartisan bill and the reconciliation bill that gets things done like prescription drugs. we should do that. and let's not relive it. for goodness sakes, the american people deserve better. >> senator, before i let you go, i want to circle back to the judiciary committee report, as you read through it some of the details are pretty breathtaking. what you described there, really is the white house attempt to take over the department of justice, effectively. to run some people out who are not supportive of that effort. and to put in people they believe would support their overturning of the election. what alarms you the most, as you heard that testimony, as your committee draws its conclusions? >> how close we came to a constitutional crisis, the likes of which we never see in this country and i hope we never, ever see. but this president was prepared to shred the constitution to keep his position in the white house. when it didn't work in his direct appeal to the courts, he went to try to take over the department of justice. when that didn't work, he turned the mob loose on the streets january 6th in washington. he was in a relentless effort to protect his own presidency, even if it costs the constitution our nation. >> the stunning report that everybody ought to read. senator dick durbin, chairman of the senate judiciary committee. thanks for being with us. we've got more straight ahead to lift the debt ceiling. live from capitol hill. plus, the white house says vaccine requirements are working. officials are pointing to more evidence to make that case. 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♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪♪ good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it's thursday, october 7th. joe is off today. with us we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire. and the professor at the lyndon b. johnson public school of affairs at the university of texas, msnbc contributor victoria defrancesco soto. we have a lot to cover this morning. covid cases continue to drop across the country as the white house credits mandates for increased vaccination rates. it's a question we've asked before. are we past the worst of it? or is there a possibility of another wave coming? we'll address that today. plus, we have the latest on the 18-year-old student facing charges after opening fire yesterday during a fight at his texas high school near dallas. also developing overnight, a federal judge blocked the enforcement of the strict new abortion law out of texas. we'll look at where the legal fight goes from here. and the dodgers walk it off in l.a. last night, beating the cardinals in the bottom of the ninth. it was a late night, willie. >> walk-off home run for chris taylor. we'll show the highlights of that coming up in just a minute. meanwhile, republican democratic leaders appear to be edging towards a deal to lift the nation's debt ceiling. minority leader mitch mcconnell offered a short term fix that will allow democrats to work on a short-term solution. peter alexander has details. >> reporter: what could be a short-term fix to a deal, mitch mcconnell allowing the government to attend to borrow money to pay its bills for another two months. >> we through that as a victory, a temporary victory. >> reporter: democrats have been blasting republicans for refusing to raise the limit that includes past spending from both parties. president biden accusing republicans of playing a dangerous game. >> doesn't have to be this way. my republican friends need to stop playing russian roulette with the u.s. economy. >> reporter: but republicans argue democrats have rushed to pass trillions of dollars in new spending without gop support so democrats, they say, should raise the debt ceiling on their own. and that their offer gives them more time to do it. >> i'm not going to support this -- this craziness. that my president biden and his new to the left friends are trying to ram down the american peoples' throat. >> reporter: the debt ceiling is affected the credit card limit now set at $28 trillion. if it's not raised by october 18th, according to the treasury department, the u.s. will run out of cash and for the first time ever default on its bills. >> we will likely experience a recession. millions of jobs would be lost. and the pain we'll endure will pass the resolution of the crisis. >> reporter: the impact affecting most americans from plunging stock markets. to rising interest rates. members of the military could go unpaid. and child tax credits for millions of families could be delayed. >> peter alexander reporting for us there. let's bring in nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. garrett, good morning. democrats do seem to be receptive for this plan proposed by mitch mcconnell but it does appear to kick the can down the road for a couple months where this massive question and the prospect of using reconciliation will be back on the table. >> yeah. make no mistake. this was mitch mcconnell blinking a little bit allowing for this additional time. even if this deal comes together, and i think it will, it's a punt. it just moves the fight until mid-december. mcconnell presented it as part of a two-part deal that republicans would get out of the way and allow for the short-term debt ceiling until december. and then mcconnell says democrats will be expected to do all the heavy lifting through reconciliation through that time. democrats have turn around and said thanks for the first part of the offer, we'll ignore the second piece with reconciliation. with a slightly set of altered set of facts and numbers and a slightly altered time line. but we could be in a situation in december where you've got the debt ceiling coming up, the temporary government funding passed last week coming up in december. and it's possible democrats could still be trying to iron out the fracture or the build back better reconciliation piece in december. so, you're looking at an enormous potential cliff of all of this that congress has to get done in the weeks before christmas. it's a lot. >> as you say, it's not a vez solution. it's a postponement of big business in front of them. >> absolutely. >> it does leave reconciliation on the table. democrats have said they don't want to use it, most anyway. what happens before december? mitch mcconnell saying i'm giving you two months to figure this out. >> republicans say they're going to sit on their hands next time. the problem is they didn't sit on their hands this time after saying that's what they're going to do. democrats don't want to do the reconciliation and b., they don't want mitch mcconnell to win. there's a million ways it could get screwed up. and they don't want to risk floor time that they might need to do all of this other stuff. but this is all going to come to a head in december. remember, mcconnell's new warning this time around, since july, that democrats are going to have to do this through reconciliation. he's saying the same thing now. he's saying he's giving democrats tons of time to get it done. the only thing that might make it more palpable for democrats come december if they've got all of the other big agenda items out of the way. it might feel like a bigger, cleaner thing to say, yeah, we've passed the things woe set out to do, we'll do this too. but that assumes they're able to get the big ticket items across the line and we're not in a huge traffic jam with a week or two to go. >> garrett, if you could stay, there's a couple of points. president biden convened a meeting looking to ramp up the pressure on senate republicans to stop blocking democratic efforts to prevent a government default. >> we would expect that the markets would react very negatively in question get to default. >> the actual default would be unprecedented. the effects would be cascading. day one would be bad. but the cascading effects in the ensuing weeks could go anywhere from a recession to a complete catastrophe on the global economy. and i don't know why anyone would take a chance like that. >> so after that, defense secretary lloyd austin also sounded the alarm on the possible effects of the nation's debt defaulting. in a statement austin wrote in part, quote, if the united states defaults it would undermine the economic strength on which our national security rests. it would also seriously harm our service members and their families because, as secretary, i would have no authority or ability to ensure that our service members, civilians or contractors would be paid in full or on time. austin also noted benefits for 2.4 million military retirees and 400,000 survivors would be at risk. austin's statement came as seven former defense secretaries issued a similar message yesterday. warning congress if would be, quote, a tragic to allow partisanship to now deny those critical resources. let's bring in former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense nbc news national security analyst jeremy bash. and jeremy. this is, from business to defense, the president has really threaded himself and kind of presented republicans with the bad options here. >> yeah, mika. there are significant national security consequences to a debt default. first, it's unclear whether we would be able to even pay our troops. the reason we have an all-volunteer force of 2.1 million individuals serving in uniform is because they know when they step out to fight and win our nation's wars. we're going to pay them. we're going to pay them well. we're going to take care of their families, provide housing. it's unclear whether we default we're able to do that. second, we have to pay our contractors. this is military readiness 101 and if we don't do that, we're not going to have a capable military. and third, our standing in the world, the united states is pierced, it's shattered because we can't function our democracy, then that's going to send a very clear signal to both our friends and our adversaries that the united states is on their back. and i don't know why anybody in washington would do that. and for that reason, vice president cheney and secretary leon panetta, wynn cohen, secretary ash carter, secretary hagel, secretary mattis, all signed this letter to take urgent action out of consequences. still ahead, a major development involving the abortion law in texas. a district court judge blocked the state's strict limits on the procedure. but the fight isn't over yet. the latest on that story is next on "morning joe." ♪♪ johnny: '76 steelers. ray: '78 team was better. ray: we argue like it's our job, but medicare advantage? 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nope. -it crushes it. pshh, mine's so fast, no one can catch me. big whoop! mine gives me a 4k streaming box. -for free! that's because you all have the same internet. xfinity xfi. so powerful, it keeps one-upping itself. can your internet do that? a federal judge has granted the justice department's motion to halt enforcement of the restrictive new abortion law in texas. in a 113-page opinion the judge argued the law, quote, unlawfully prevents women from exercising the control over their lives in ways that are protected by the constitution. the state of texas announced will appeal the judge's order. in a statement attorney general merrick garland call the ruling a victory for women in texas and for the rule of law. let's bring in the former u.s. district for the district of alabama, joyce vance, she's an msnbc legal analyst. joyce, good morning. what's the significance of this ruling? and what does it mean for the future of law? >> well, this ruling blocks the rule which the supreme court declined to enjoin it. as of this morning, texas women, people in texas, are free to receive the abortion procedure, up until the previously designated time in texas, up until viability. the problem here, willie, is that the state of texas took a little over an hour to file an appeal after judge pittman entered his very meticulous order. texas will ask the fifth circuit to rehear his decision. they will undoubtedly ask the fifth circuit to enjoin, to reblock the statute to again prohibit abortions in texas. it's a confuturesing and complicated situation for people on the ground in texas. and part of that texas calculated when it passed that law was that level on abortion would lead to a drag on people's ability to exercise the fundamental right. despite the very -- it's a very groundbreaking opinion. it's very well written. it says that the supreme court was wrong when it says there was no way to enjoin the state of texas from hearing out its law. nonetheless, a very uncertain situation for people in texas. >> so victoria, we should remind people that sb8 prohibits abortion after 8 weeks when a heartbeat is detected. what is going to happen in texas and likely down the road before the supreme court? >> as joyce pointed out, this will very quickly end up in front of the fifth circuit, one of the most conservative courts in the country. so, even though we saw a win for advocates here in the state, it is likely to be a fleeting one. as this winds its way up to the supreme court. but i really want to emphasize here, willie, i think when we're talking about the texas law, it's highlighting the extremity of it. this is a law that does not allow for any exceptions. it was remarkable in the six weeks in of itself it does not allow exceptions in case of rape, in case of incest or danger to the mother's life. i think at the end of the day, this extremity is what's really going to hurt the law. it hurts the viability of the law. because we know, not just in the united states, but even in texas, the majority of folks support the right to a legal abortion. about a third of americans support it under any circumstance, an additional 45% support it under certain circumstances. so, we're really seeing an overreach that we've never seen before with regard to abortions here in this country. coming up, another story involving the government and health policy. we'll talk about the push for vaccines as we run through the latest headlines on the pandemic. next on "morning joe." you've been taking mental health meds, and your mind is finally in a better place. except now you have uncontrollable body movements called tardive dyskinesia td. and it can seem like that's all people see. ♪ some meds for mental health can cause abnormal dopamine signaling in the brain. while how it works is not fully understood, ingrezza is thought to reduce that signaling. ingrezza is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with td movements in the face and body. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most mental health meds. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to any of its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including sleepiness. don't drive, operate heavy machinery, or do other dangerous activities until you know how ingrezza affects you. other serious side effects include potential heart rhythm problems and abnormal movements. shift the focus more on you. ask your doctor about ingrezza. it's simple. one pill, once-daily. #1 prescribed for td. learn how you could pay as little as $0 at ingrezza.com with voltaren arthritis pain gel my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pain pills voltaren is the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief... voltaren the joy of movement so, you have diabetes, here are some easy rules. no sugar. no pizza. no foods you love. stressed? 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and you know, health officials are actually sounding cautiously optimistic that the worst may behind us. >> reporter: this is the scene in an arkansas hospital back in mid-july. just as the summer covid surge was taking hold. >> we hit the floor running and just all of us are working hours. >> reporter: at its busiest, the hospital had 70 covid patients. today there are eight. >> it's kind of like wait and see but it does feel better. it does feel much better, as far as there's a lot more hope. >> reporter: and it's not just arkansas, covid cases are dropping past in other hard-hit states like louisiana and florida. nationwide, down down since september 1st. are we hoping there won't be a surge in this fall and winter? >> i'm very encouraged by the decline in cases. many more people have been infected, unfortunately and now natural immunity and vaccination. >> reporter: and could go higher when 30 million children between the ages of 5 and 11 become eligible. possibly in the coming weeks. is it possible to expect that we will reach a point where the virus feels less like a deadly pandemic and more like the flu? >> i do think. what we're effectively doing is taking off the table its ability to put people in the hospital and kill us. >> reporter: a lot of people want to know when can we stop wearing masks on planes? when are we going to stop sending our kids to school with masks on? do we have any better sense of that? >> well, we don't. that's why i called really on the administration to develop a covid control strategy that defines our end points. defines what we're working towards. >> reporter: what most health experts do agree on, the country's not there yet. >> there's still a lot of people unnecessarily winding up in a hospital and experiencing death that could have been prevented. >> reporter: so the white house report is pointing to the mandates driving down numbers. and the other things driving down numbers, too, are these booster shots that people are going out and getting, mika. >> nbc's stephanie gosk. thank you for coming on. coming up, our next guest is someone we wanted to feature on the show for 14 years. we'll show you why it was worth the wait. next on "morning joe." discover card i just got my cashback match is this for real? 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atlantic" writer and wide ranging interview. >> it's a great day to have caitlin with us, she's a writer for "the atlantic" and i believe the greatest writer since shakespeare. thanks for being with us. >> after that rumbling production, i don't know if i want to stay around. but thank you, it's extremely nice to say. >> you have to. we need to talk about amalidy that we have. an affliction to twitter. you have a son that carries around the passwords to twitter. very rarely does he allow you to to get close to it. i notice you're on twitter now. what is the status of a parasite that burrows deep into your brain training you to respond to the constandpoint social feedback of likes and retweets. >> thanks to my son, both of them, who said, mom, you're addicted to this. you're always on it. we're trying to talk to you and you're on it. it's very embarrassing because i'm almost 60, because you would think, not as a middle age or old person i'd be immune to these dopamine hits. i realize, i've never been addicted to alcohol or gambling or other things that i've had good friends go out on. but this is interesting, at my advanced age, i couldn't stop. and i'm back on right now. and i can't stop now. i'm about to have my son change my password again and go off for a few weeks. because everybody tells me well, you should just do it in a responsible way and have an hour or half hour or 15 minutes a day when you check in and maybe post your work. but that's what i'm trying to say, i can't. it is -- i've never a lot of people who are addicted to substances all my life. and it's the same thing. and i'm in l.a., it's a thing california flipover, when somebody promises rehab in malibu because they crash their car or something. and then they can have a little excellent champagne or mild edible or something. and then within three months they're back on the sauce and in trouble again because with those substances there's no half way. but i'm a true twitter addict. and i'm really embarrassed about it. >> you were saying before, you were walking towards that crackhouse of social media and you need your son to get you off. you say it takes a week or two, human psychology is pathetically simple to manipulate. once you're hooked, the parasite becomes your master and it changes the way you think. even know, i'm dopesick, dieing to go back. >> and for twitter, for me, it does something. >> some writers, they have all of these other great things that they do. and then they sit down and they write, you know. that's the only thing i can do is read voraciously, oftentimes, really good books. sometimes middle of the road books. sometimes, junk. but reading is just the one thing. you know, i grew up with girls sports and all of those things that annoyed me. so, suddenly i was like are we in a post-reading age because i would pick up really good books. nonfiction. i'd read. sort of into the first chapter. and i'd go, i get it. i see where this person is going. and they're great works of literature. and i realize, for a while, i thought are we in a post-reading age and this is no longer the way that we want to consume prose or literature? and from the second my son changed my password, the second i felt relieved. i picked up -- there was a volume of kevin starr's majestic, history of california. each one 400 pages. i picked it up and i wandered into the backyard. and time just fell away the way it used to. and i was fully immersed in this world. in 1950s. which was so interesting. and i realize i haven't read this deeply and in this continuous, where you're entering into the dream that the writer is dreaming. and you're dreaming it with the writer. i hadn't done that since i got hooked on the craft. >> so, let's go from twitter to something that you've been talking about over the past month or so writing about. and that is, your battle with cancer. and i was -- speaking of twitter, i had to immediately -- i read -- i'll tell you the secret about cancer. and i immediately tweeted the funniest thing you'll read about cancer today because it was hilarious. all of this self-help nonsense. you must stay positive and you were talking about everybody coming at you. when you got this devastating diagnosis. and everybody saying, oh, you've got to be happy. you've got to be happy. and it took a while until you got to the right person who said, you don't have to be happy. can you walk us through that? >> you don't have to be happy. well, people watching who have been -- i have had a very bad cancer diagnosis. and i very incredibly lucky to be in l.a. where they're doing all the research on this cancer. i'm 18 years out. i currently have a metastatic recurrence now. but i've had one before. when you first get that diagnosis, when someone says you have cancer, particularly when you had no expectation, you just had a regular doctor's appointment, the shock is so intense. you don't realize how intense it is until you're through the shock here. the fear, the sorrow. it is, i would say, the low point of your life. and then people come along and say, time to get positive. and it's not just as though they imagine it's some helpful thing. there is a true body of belief that if you don't have a positive attitude, the chemo won't work. you won't live very long. and you don't have a very good chance of surviving unless you develop a positive attitude. and i remember, my first two months of going through really heavy chemo, i got into despair over it. because people kept sending us these -- they thought they were being helpful. and would send us these books sort of saying you must do this. and you must develop this attitude. and i was like, i was really upbeat before i got cancer. and because it really lifted that regularly crappy mood. but finally, i was really lucky to be in a few places that had a sensor just dealing with the emotional consequences of cancer, run by a psychologist who is his whole life leading research on that. and i said, i'm so afraid because i can't get a positive attitude. and she said, there's not a piece of literature, there's not one study, it's never been proven that a positive attitude helps to cure cancer or helps your survival rate. they study it all the time. because people believe it so much. it's simply not true. the few studies that suggested it could never be replicated. if i have one answer to give cancer patients watching, you can keep that crappy attitude. you know, you can be cranky, angry. you can have a crap mood. and i don't know if it will make the days go more quickly when you're on chemo. but i can promise you, it's not going to affect the outcome with your cancer. you don't have to be up. and when people tell you that, joe, what they're really saying is you used your cancer. you didn't have the right attitude. you must have been, you know, despairing, unhappy, a negative person which god knows i was. and it was my mind-set. and you caused it and therefore, you deserved it. and therefore, you need to -- you need to think your way out of it. and it's a terrible thing, it's actually a very cruel thing to say to somebody. and it's completely untrue. cancer is nothing more than some cells dividing in a malignant way. and successful treatment is nothing more than those cells responding to a chemical treatment. it's nothing more than that. >> you were talking about almost being 60. i'm 58 myself. and there are a lot of things -- >> a child. >> what, 59? yes, i'm a child. so, there are many things i've learned through the years. and i think it's one of the reasons why when i was reading about, in your journey with cancer and keeping it from your boys, why i teared up, the moment you finally handed them a book and explained to them what was happening to their mommy. it reminds me, while i was going through a divorce, my wife and i kept telling the counselor, we have young children. we just -- we can't tell them. and we don't say the word. and the counselor said, say divorce. go home right now, and use the word. not that mommy and daddy, they love each other, they can't live with each other. not that mommy and daddy are -- tell them you're getting a divorce. we said, we can't say that, it will break their heart. the doctor said, no, you're breaking their hearts now. you say the word divorce. nobody will disappear. and everything will be okay. there will be actually -- all of the tension that's been building up around them will actually dissipate. i started tearing up when you talked about the books that you bought and you gave your sons. and they ran outside excitedly and started showing them to your neighbors. can you tell us about that. >> yeah, i have twins, and they weren't yet 5 when i got this terrible diagnosis. all i could think on the way home from this doctor. my boys, my boys, my boys. they need me. and i came up -- as you said with the divorce, i can't tell them i have cancer. and so i said, well, you know what, i have a bump and the doctor is going to take it off. he's going to give me a special medicine and it's a silly medicine that makes you lose your hair. finally, again, it was a social worker who said, you know, the next time they have to take tylenol, they think they're going to lose their hair. next time they fall down and get a bump, they're going to think that something terrible has happened. they have to go to the hospital. they know something's wrong in the household. they don't know what it is. so, in their childish way, they're trying to put it all together. and tell them what it is. she gave me a book -- just a children's book. the kind you never, ever, ever want to have to show your children. it just showed a little boy and his mom. she already had lost her hair. this was happening. sometimes, she was tired. and somebody would come over and take care of them. then she got through the treatment. i thought my boys -- i really thought their childhood would end. they were so little. and the minute i got to the end. patrick grabbed the book, ran out the front door, ran across the lawn, knocked on the neighbor's house and showed her the book. then he ran the other way. it was like, finally, he knew, okay, i'm not the only person in the world this has happened to. there's another mom. there's another little boy. they're doing fine. she looks like my mom looks like right now. she's in a bathrobe. she's in a scarf, instead of having her hair down. i think also with kids, especially if they're little, they don't know the heartbreaking script. we know if someone says i have really bad cancer. we adults know that can be a heartbreaking reality. they don't know the script. they just want to know what's happening. whenever you don't tell kids what's happening in the house, they make up a story about it because they're always trying to figure it out. because you know, we think that our children are supposed to have perfect lives. we think that's the responsibility. and we think that's the one generation in all of history who can build a safe fence around our children's emotional lives. and you know, life is hard. and kids are built with the same thing adults are, an incredible ability to survive. and a deep need and ability to love. those things together that people have. so i'm a big believer in telling an age-appropriate truth. tell in an age-appropriate way. i'm a big believer, small children, and here is somebody taking care of you when i'm not feeling well. they really need to know that. just be sure you're age-appropriate. but the kids need to know. it is happening like i had cancer. like you said with you getting a divorce, you couldn't hide it. you know. you might as well let them begin to understand it. with the children's book or with a certain calm, okay. that's what's happening. mom and dad aren't freaking out when they say it. our house isn't blowing up when he say it. we're having a change but mom and dad are in control. i can tell they're calm and they have a plan. so, that was about two months out and ever since then it got so much -- before that, they had started wetting their beds again. and going to their room at night. one of them would have crawled into the other one's bed for comfort. it was heartbreaking to me. and as soon as they had that book -- and read it over and over. they couldn't read it. so i would read it, you know. as soon as they had that, those behaviors stopped. those signs of stress were gone. and anxiety was gone. so a big believer in telling them the truth. >> this is what you wright. install children don't need much when there's a crisis at home. they need simple, accurate information about what's happening. and they need to know who is going to take care of them as long as the crisis lasts, your heart is breaking but theirs might not be. they don't know the script. oh, my gosh, that can apply to so much, cancer, a divorce, a lost job. so many different things. >> covid. different realities with covid. yeah. they don't see it as necessarily a heartbreaking thing. all they see is, oh, mom and dad, maybe in separate households, maybe together, they have a plan for this. they know what to do about this. they've figured out how to take care of me during this. that's the stability that they need. >> you -- i've told you before, that when you write something, when something posts, i see it, i stop, and very excited to read it. and i think what you write really does make such a difference. and so i often, not only look at what you write, but think about why you're writing it. and so when you started writing about cancer, i was wondering if you felt a need, a responsibility to talk to other people that have been through the struggle, been through the battle, that you had been going through for so long. and maybe give them some insights? is that what moved you to do this? >> well, i'd always not wanted to write about it. i had a fear if i started writing about cancer that people would kind of write me off as somebody to read or to think about. or maybe she's, you know, too ill. or she won't be around. sore she's not someone to, i don't know, promote within the culture, whatever. those ideas i used to have. but my editor over at "the atlantic," you must know him -- >> oh, we know jeff. and he's an absolutely, absolutely terrible human being -- no, he's a good friend of ours. >> i have the full opinion on that, couldn't be worse. you know, you've had this so long, you know a lot. why don't you write a series -- because it's a series. and i said, and realized when i wrote the first one, and i've never gotten that much mail in my life about anything. coming into my website of people tells me their stories about what they've been told. and how painful it had been that they had to have this certain c attitude and then the next one how to talk with children about anything difficult. so i had to admit that despite my best intentions, i had done something useful and helpful to others, and i felt that i do have, i've had it so long, and i've been through so much, and -- i felt so deeply, when norm macdonald died. it was his choice not to tell others, except a very few people, pand i always respect people's choices but when i went back and listened to his interviews i heard the fear. such fear of death. not that telling me people can help, but that i just wished that he'd had a little more support so maybe there would have been, i'm speaking -- i don't know norm macdonald. i just felt so close to him when i started just moving into his interview and finding out he had died that way, and i thought, yeah. it's -- it's good for those of us who have this unwanted knowledge to share it. that cancer's not the end of the world. you know? and my favorite thing he said, because he did a lot of comedy around cancer, and i had never put it together in my mind that he must have cancer. i always thought, how does he know these things? but he had a joke where he said -- >> in the old days they go, hey, that old man's died. now they go, hey, he -- he lost his battle. that's no way to end your life. you know? what a loser that guy was. last thing he did was lose! [ laughter ] i'm not a doctor but pretty sure if the cancer guys, i mean, if you die, the cancer also dies at exactly the same time. so that, to me, is not a loss. that's a draw. that's a -- you know what i mean? >> [ laughter ]. so true! that's when i, when i go i want the funeral to -- ended in a draw. each had respect for each other. >> exactly. it's like a soccer match. 0-0. let me ask you about, you know, you grew up in california. and there's another california native who, such a huge fan of. joan didian, and, i mean, you know, you remind me of mika. mika will be sitting talking and i'll bring up china. she'll go, oh, that reminds me when dung xiaoping came to dinner at her house in mclean. you know? for me and my dad, you know, he was a little league coach. we'd occasionally get umpires coming over for a barbecue, but not dong xiaoping and certainly not who your father brought home for dinner one night. can you tell us that story? >> well, i was in ninth grade and joan didian had gone to berkeley and had been asked that. i think she was 32, maybe. and she'd been asked that, my father was chairman of the english department and asked her back to have a beckman professorship, basically you teach for a quarter. so you know, we threw the first dinner at our house. and she was extremely more nervous than usual, because a lot of the men there were her former professors, and she, who shaped her in a lot of ways, and they, i realize, in reflection, we got to get joan out of -- down there in hollywood. we got to get her back here. she needs to write that dissertation. they didn't know. but, anyway, she was hardly joan didian yet. hadn't even written "the white" album. my father, we had writers in the house all the time. my father was a writer, but he had an excellent, my father had an excellent sense of who was a writer just on the page. he could all give somebody the right book or introduce them to the right person and said to me, cait, you need to be there at this dinner. i think you'd be interested in this young woman. i was really entranced by her, just because she was so tiny and so inarticulate. all the things were true, and then i went to hear her speak a couple of times, and i remember my father -- what really stuck me about her was my father coming home and saying during that -- there's something weird going on with women and joan didian. he said her office hours, there are -- in wheeler hall, women are thronging in the hallways. these are not berkeley students. these are not necessarily young women. they felt just from that one slight collection of essays that this woman in some powerful way speaks to them, and then i -- and that summer i read that collection, and it was just as though -- i think it's like falling in love in that, like, there were all of these pathways in my brain that i didn't know existed and that pros lit them up and i was growing up in berkeley, she'd gone to berkeley, and also i idolized, susan sante, kind of -- a lot of her. but read others at a young age. this idea you can be a woman. you can be from california. you can be -- you can be a -- used word, bad ass, own any subject you want. you can have total freedom pup don't have to write about the women things but you can write about the women's things, and i always kept my eye on joan. always, always. >> that was joe's conversation with the award-winning writer and social critic caitlin flanigan. you can read more of her work at the "atlantic," the atlantic.com nap does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage after this final quick break. break. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. bipolar depression. it made me feel like i was trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of people living with bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of 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after time. gold. your strategic advantage. johnny: '76 steelers. ray: '78 team was better. ray: we argue like it's our job, but medicare advantage? that we agree on. johnny: 98% of the folks who use it give it... johnny/ray: ...high ratings. ray: cause it's got record low premiums...johnny: they check in with me at home, gave you a ride to the doctor. ray: then covid showed up. johnny: but medicare advantage showed up too ray: with that telehealth thing... johnny: food delivery... ray: i bet you like that. it's times like these that show who you can count on. johnny: if you're waiting for me to say i count on you... announcer: medicare advantage. twenty six million seniors count on it. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. "live" at msnbc headquarters here in new york city, it is thursday, october 7th. we start with breaking news out of the state of texas. a federal judge there has temporarily blocked the state's newest abortion law, considered toughest and most restrictive in the nation. this is the law that prevent women from ending pregnancies after six weeks. let's private citizens sue anyone involved in any abortion in that state. but last night the judge declared it unconstitutional saying in part, "this court will not sanction one more day of this offensive deprivation of such an important right." in response the state of texas appealed the decision almost immediately. let's find out what's really going on and bring in msnbc's jewel ra engly who covers the justice department and barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney. julia, this is a big headline. for women in texas waking up today, what does it mean? >> well, it means for the time

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