and associate editor for the washington post. david ignacious is here. i keep on thinking about that face, all over twitter because of your award. yes, that one. >> and of course all the baseball stuff happening last night, joe and mike, well, they want to talk about it. >> yeah, i was actually at the game and then i had to leave near the end because mik and i had -- >> why did you leave? >> i can't say we were speaking with because we had an important duty. >> that's not why you left. >> my phone started blowing up. it was my friends calling me about the red sox to tell me they need me. mike barnicle , what a terrible run up? we swept last week by the yankees and lost 2-3 from baltimore. but, they swept the nationals and i got to say, i went to all three games and a pact for the last three days. >> as you know. i am old, but i am much older today than i was friday morning. those were three emotionally charged games. congratulations to the nationals, they don't have much, they have a young fellow, probably the best players in major league baseball, juan souto. it was two days of psychological nightmares for red sox fans. the 9th inning that put the red sox into the prospect of a wild card game. tomorrow night here in boston against the new york yankees. you saw that clip in the opening. the saga continues, the dream continues. >> wild. the dream never dies. exactly. it's insanity. this is a team where some fans have cursed throughout the year. a gutsy team for the first half of the season. the last half looked like a run away dear truck. mike, it was fascinating. this is a team that time and again gets behind 5-1 and somehow manages to come back there. the cardinals football team called the cardiac kids, there is no doubt across new england and the country this team's giving their fans heart palpitation. it's funny, mike barnicle and you and everybody loves baseball, they know it's the beauty. they went onto lose about 9,000 games this season. everything that unfolded yesterday, with all of the possibilities and you know this. looking at all the playoff possibilities on the last day, i felt like i was trying to fill out a form to get back into boston college again. it came down to the red sox having to win with the toronto blue jays who nobody wanted to play. now it sets up. the red sox and the yankees these days is a great rivalry, two often in name only, it won't be tomorrow night, one of the rare times in baseball history that he'll play a win or go home game for each of them and i am old enough barnacle, that i was there on october 2nd, 1978 when bucky dan hit that home run in a different format when the red sox and yankees played one of the famous games in baseball history. this will have that field, even though world series, just to get to st. petersburg next weekend. >> the red sox could have won that game. i held that grudge now since 1978. i just want to get it out. >> let it go, let it go. let go, mike. >> you are right, the beauty of this baseball, the magic of baseball and joe when you and i were talking about this multiple times, you can't scrip this game. you sort of knew what happened in the buccaneers game last night, you can't script baseball. you have no way of knowing for sure. you have no idea of who's going to get thrown out or who's going to make a stupid running mistake. we have seen this game multiple times. it changes every time you go to the ballpark, you see something you never saw before. >> yes. >> it's heartbreaking often but now they pulled through three, extraordinary. >> guys, thank you so much for being was. i am sure i will see you up in boston tuesday night very late. >> oh god. mike lupica's book reached number 19 on usa today, "stone's throw." congratulations on that book. >> anybody wants to talk about the nationals here? i am telling you, i went in there and expected to be 14 people and a hound dog. they were engaged to the last place team. i never seen such fans support this weekend. >> they are in rebuilding phase. they traded matt scherzer and their best pitcher. >> exactly. and decided it was time to rebuild which i think they will be pretty good at. certainly the best hitter. >> he's amazing, he's 22 years old. the first priority souto is locked in for life and put in the pieces around them. i think they're going to put together a good team. i think they're going to be a lot of fun to watch last night. they got really good hitters. they need some pitchers. >> yeah, that's the problem. >> we'll have a list of what's going on in capitol hill in just a moment. first, a former facebook employee leaked, in a 60-minute interview that aired last night. francis haugen, she says her goal has been to help change at the social media giant but she quit the company in may and she took a trove of private research with her, some of it showing how facebook knowingly amplifies hate, misinformation, and public unrest. >> the thing i saw facebook over and over again. there were conflicts of interests between what was good for the public and what was good for facebook. and facebook over and over again optimize for its own interests like making more fun. you have your phone, you may see only 100 pieces of contents if you sit and scroll over 5 minutes. facebook has thousands of options that can show you. >> the algorithm hit based on the kind of content you engaged the most in the past. one of the contents how fab facebook picks it out, its own research showing contents that's hateful and polarizing, it's easy to transpire people to anger than to other information. >> misinformation and angry contents enticing to people and. >> yes, facebook has realized if they change the algorithm, people will spend less time on the site and they'll click on less adds. >> facebook understood the danger of the 2020 election so it turned on safety systems to reduce misinformation that many of those changes were temporary. >> as soon the election was over, they turn it back off to prioritize growth over safety. that feels like a betrayal of democracy to me. >> ted lasso a couple of weeks ago said i used think that good people went to heaven and bad people went to hell. i realize that's the case with corporations, i think. i am not sure we are in the gray area with facebook. they have documents that say their product destroys young girls' lives and they really undermine american democracy by become the organizing place for riots at the capitol across the world. i can just keep going on. the lies they willingly spread about the pandemic that kills people. it's hard in my lifetime to think about a company more out of control and one person, mark zuckerberg, more accountable to american democracy and healthcare and our children. the mark zuckerberg. >> the real question is what's going to be done on capitol hill. >> why don't they do anything about it? >> counter intuitively, i think it makes it probably less likely they're going to get it publicly regulated. we are heading towards a situation where republicans are going to take control over the house. unless democrats have a historic cycle defying history. all the things that the whistle blower complaining about, misinformation and hate speech. republicans putting under the bucket of u.s. conservatives. they have no desire to go down the path. what you have is two sides who hates facebook for different reasons. they are in a complete and causing all these noise and stir or whatever. they kind of get together to figure out a sensible and rational bipartisan path of reform. >> i respectfully disagree. interests are so complicated and lawmakers on capitol hill do not have an understanding of these platforms. the issue of making teenage girls feeling bad about themselves, and killing themselves is something that democrats and republicans can agree on. it's understandable and it gives you an opening wedge into a serious examination of what the government's role ought to be in regulating facebook. >> haugen is scheduled to testify tomorrow. facebook put out a statement saying this. "everyday our teams have to balance protecting the right of billions of people to express themselves openly with the need to keep our platform safe and positive place. we continue to make significant improvements to tackle the spread of misinformation and harmful content." >> they have algorithms that encouraged hate speech. they have algorithm that encouraged lies about the virus, they have algorithms that encourage people to not get vaccines and choke to death with a ventilor shove down their throat. i have friends and relatives and i have people who call me everyday with another horrific story. mika, this weekend was visiting her daughter and somebody came up to her and knew she was on the show, hey, is it true? >> said the most ridiculous thing. >> mika says, you need to stop reading facebook and you need start reading the news. >> mika, for the first time, if you are not happy with what social media is doing to you, the way the algorithms are driving to crazier contents and behaviors, get off social media. millions and millions of young people, people around the country are doing just that. facebook is the public square that we inhabitant. you can walk away from the square. i get worried when i hear regulation of content. okay, we'll have to regulate facebook. regulating the content that we get scares me. >> we are asking -- >> let me follow-up. even the 1960s cbs news had over 50% of the market share and walter cronkite was putting on misinformation coming from russia and a missing information piece talking about the measles. do you think the fcc will crack down on him? >> the question is -- why does facebook live by different rules than every other? >> my point is "the washington post" is not regulated. we are subjected to be sued. >> that's right. >> somebody files liable suits and jean or i -- >> facebook is not. >> the beginning of the whistle blower, facebook has become a publisher. you say you like something and facebook's algorithms will giver you more like that. >> what will happen if "the washington post" wrote 12 times -- >> you know what i would do? i would have the most wonderful home. facebook can do that time and again and spread lies about everybody. they publish it. zuckerberg makes billions of dollars. he's worth over billions of dollars and they go, oh, we are not publishers. >> yeah, that's garbage. >> it's the definition of platform and somehow not a publisher but in actuality. that needs to change. we also have transparency on the algorithm because they are opaque of what it's and how it works. they keep saying well, we tweak it this way or we fix it. tell us how. there are people who understand how to write and rewrite algorithms out there. i am not one of them. but, we have plenty of them at "the washington post" that would be qualified to examine it and understand how it works. that lack of transparency seems to me can be fixed. >> hey, the second amendment, i believe in the second amendment and i believe the second amendment says what it means. let's say there is a case that came down that upsets me. i go on facebook and i wrote second amendment, i would be pushed into a right-wing, antigovernment group. what happened this summer with a guy ended up assassinating the right-winger and assassinated the black lives marchers. they push them to the extreme right or push them to the extreme left. that's their model. >> remember when facebook was created in the early days seen as a way to build a community and doing a lot of things. in some ways it does that but it does other things, too. not one thing is going to fix it. you need more transparency and liable for what they post for to public or some form of government regulations. it took us a long time to get to this dangerous place on facebook. it's going to take us a while. >> wow, i wish it does not take us too long to get out because it's driving the country into the wrong direction. people are misled. zuckerberg is less popular than donald trump. zuckerberg with the favorability of 27% compares to 31% for don jr. and 44% for the president. younger americans like zuckerberg, the least, 21% of 18 to 24 year olds had a favorable view of the facebook's founder. >> zuckerberg has become the david, the big tobacco executive. >> he's a symbol of a platform, media company that does not seem to care about consequences of his actions or what happens to ordinary people. i think he's somebody who just believed in this dream of facebook, connecting people and he connected people without having guidance of where the people and people don't like living in that world. one answer is to treat facebook the way we treat "the washington post" and the new york times, if you get something wrong or harmful social consequences, you get sued. >> i don't understand why that has to take a long time. >> it should not. >> it should start tobacco. we have been saying it for years. the damage incurred by this platform will come back and held accountable. >> we have internal documents we read from facebook. if you look, wall street journal stories, they all lay this out chapter and verse. i remember talking about the radical reckless experience with our teenage girls because of instagram and what facebook was doing and talking about suicidals and depressions and anxieties. you go to any college, they'll tell you and high school counselors and same as high school. this is not hard. i will go back to smoking in the 1950s. nobody is surprised. >> these platforms were designed to be addictive and generate outrage. you can see it. people who are getting the top things and people who are reving people up and throwing red meat. that's the model all along. this is more evidence that comes out to support what we already knew. >> all right, ahead we'll speak with the attorney for the facebook's whistle blower along with senator blumenthal who called the whistle blower to testify tomorrow. we'll be joined by jim clyburn as democrats trying to get their infrastructure across the finish line. the supreme court is gearing up for a block buster term. in southern california, oil is beginning to wash off on local beaches after an under water pipeline started leaking. the latest on the efforts to contain the spread. you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. e watching we'll be right back. this is the new world of work. . . whether erve r cu ers, orchestrating a safe return to the office... wait. an office? 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>> the toxic fumes are in the air and affecting your health. we move to the pandemic now. covid cases and hospitalizations are dropping. it's still at levels not seen since the winter, before vaccines were widely available. 150,000 daily and are now on track to slip below 100,000. southern states hit hard by the delta variant. meanwhile more covid vaccine mandates will go into effect today leaving many concerns over staffing shortages for critical jobs. nbc's lindsey rouser has the latest. >> reporter: one of the strictest vaccine mandates in the country goes into effect, connecticut demanding all state workers getting vaccinated or face suspension. >> i am concerned of making sure we are well prepared if there is another delta. i am concerned keeping our schools open and economy going. >> reporter: the governor is preparing the national guard to step in if necessary. the state's commissioner is hoping that won't be the case. >> we are looking at having so many of our people vaccinated that will not be necessary. at this point, things are still being tabulated. >> reporter: in new york city, fears of staffing shortages in the largest school district in america. all teachers must be vaccinated, no testing option. some 10,000 employees may not be able to work. substitutes are standing by and most teachers are vaccinated. >> 93% of our teachers and principles and the bottom line is this mandate has worked. >> reporter: nicole broker won't be showing up. >> now you are taking away teachers and go to person. she says she had asymptomatic covid in the spring of last year. >> i have many doctors telling me i don't need it right now and maybe in the future. >> reporter: while we saw the highest report of vaccinations in a month. the nation's top doctor says it's too soon to tell whether we can gather for the holidays. >> we got to concentrate by getting those numbers down and not jump ahead by weeks or months. >> the teacher says she talked to doctors that she didn't need the vax? one thing we have found is mandates work. >> yes, they do. >> everybody says we are going to quit and walk off the job. small percentage walks off the job. that's a small price to pay to keep everybody healthy. >> good call. >> they got 99.5% compliance for airlines. everybody that was not vaccinated got vaccinated. >> i heard in the military, oh, if they make me get the vaccine, okay, i will get the vaccine. >> you have to be vaccinated for a bunch of things. >> right? >> and it's approved. >> so at this, vaccinations. >> the craziest thing is one of the reasons why i don't think as many people quit because maybe their memory kicks in, oh, wait, i had to get my children six vaccines before they go to kindergarten. my parents had to get me six vaccines before i can go to kindergarten. we do this as a country when required. >> and only a matter of time until most states and the covid vaccines to the list of vaccinations that kids have to get at the appropriate age before they can go to school. >> it's not for you or necessarily. you are big selfish if you don't get it. if you get the vaccines and keep everyone around you safe. >> other headlines this morning. the taliban says at least two people were killed and four others hurt following an explosion outside a mosque in kabul. a mother of a high ranking tell ban official according to a spokesperson. no one claimed responsibility for this. it resembles a similar attack carried out by isis-k terror group in afghanistan. in august, isis-k claims responsibility for a deadly suicide bombing outside of kabul's main airport which killed 13 american troops and close to 200 afghans. >> david, we have all been focusing on the taliban taking over afghanistan and not really contemplaing how difficult it was going to be for the taliban to keep the peace because they got isis coming at them. they never in 20 years had raw support among afghan people. it's not an urban area. >> it's going to be -- >> one interesting question whether the national community is -- they're heading towards famine and disease and all the nightmares. the government is unprepared and security problem in kabul is one example of that. another couple of months, that's what's ahead. i heard a fascinating -- you know what's going to happen? every country in the region is going to have a proxy force for afghanistan. they'll pump up in the proxy force. it will look like what it used to. a proxy war of six different fashion. it's a terrible picture in the future. you hope we are not going to be vulnerable to attacks in our homeland and that chaos. >> the other thing as complicated as you know, the idea that you can pour money into afghanistan and sort of do it in a way that does not touch the taliban. the pristine sort of self-contained and you can use ngos. it's a fantasy. >> they're going to take their cut. >> of course. >> the taliban will become corrupt. >> well, jonathan, you recently spoke with afghanistan ambassador in the united states, her first interview in the fall of ka kabul. >> president biden comes into office and he decides not to negotiate with the taliban, how did you feel when he made that decision? >> when we first came into office, we were super excited that he won't withdrawal or change the deal. i reached out to some of my principles and said, we should not buy into this la la land, we should be serious. >> he says he's going to withdrawal. >> exactly. >> i think everybody hoped that he'll put stronger conditions which he didn't. >> jonathan, i thought that was a wonderful interview. she's a remarkable person. this ambassador. >> what did she tell you about the sudden moment in which president ghani fled and leaving the palace empty and leaving nothing but chaos ahead. >> she's an amazing person. she's her refugee in her own embassy. she's in this embassy and she kept it open. she's still flying the flag. she refused to fly it is taliban flag. the taliban is sending her invitation for zoom calls and she's ignoring them. come to our zoom. and the biden administration won't deal with her. her husband was the chief of staff in the palace. and so, some sense that his exit would spur the moment. it seems from her that it was probably a lot more premeditated and her husband reported to her in realtime in the days leading up to august 15th that ghani was having these secret meetings with two of his top aides, no one else. it seems like that was what was happening. he was planning the evacuation and her husband was in the palace in the days he left. suddenly, finds out the helicopter of god. she had a harsh words for biden and the taliban. the taliban stopped her from going to school but the u.s. came in and she continued. she felt guilty for encouraging a generation of young girls to have hopes in the future and like it was the most painful interviews i have done in my life. she stopped several times and she was crying. she feels there is no future. >> my god. >> what did she expect from president biden, i mean? she would have known he would have wanted to withdrawal from afghanistan for decades. >> yes. >> she would have known there was an existing agreement for u.s. forces to pull out? why did she expect not to follow through? >> she thought president trump's deal was terrible. she hoped that biden would come in for re-negotiating. maybe that was a naive fantasy but that was what she hoped. >> i met this ambassador recently, we talked with her about the possibility that she could be the face of the world of afghan women, educated and dynamic woman who dreamed to have a modern future that's crushed by the taliban. if you saw and spent time with her, you would feel differently about some of these issues. we have abandoned millions of people who were on their way on a much better life. >> she's 35 years old. many people could imagine her as a leader. she feels like she may be the last female ambassador. >> president biden hopes afghanistan in the rear view mirror in the united states. americans have learned to care about. the other is the point you were making which is going to be the unrest of terrorists that afghanistan was likely to come. susan page, thank you very much for being with us this morning. how a law school professor went from obscurity to the most important adviser in former president trump's ears in his final days in office. >> let's be clear here, in drafting a memo in support of sedition against the united states government. michael schmidt joins us with his new reporting on that. we should pay more heed to alarmists. 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>> i don't know what you call this but it's not good. easmon came to the attention to the former president while appearing on fox news. within two months he was sitting in the oval office. reading from michael's report, soon mr. easmon was meeting face-to-face, william barr and telling him how mr. trump can impose birthrights on citizenship. mr. easmen wrote a memo. >> i don't know what else to call it, michael, he wrote a legal memo trying to explain to the president of the united states how he can remain in office and ignored 84 million votes against him. >> yeah, the thing that struck us about easmon was the feedback that how was he the last person in the room with the president at such a crucial juncture in the president's administration and american history. and as you guys were laying out, it starts on fox news. it starts with the president seeing him on fox news. and that's how he comes into that orbit. it's in that final weeks when folks like bill barr had turn their back on the president and the white house council was not going along with not what trump wanted. he looks for others coming up wp rationals that he was looking for and easmon provided them. in the en, january 4th, where the president trying to pressure pence into intervening on january 6th on the president's behalf is eastman in the room, there were no other aides to the president there. he completed this a year and a half, 18 months long, from fox news host counter to the president at a time that the country looked like it could be sliding towards or was sliding into a constitutional crisis. >> i want to ask you how close you think we came with eastman in particular to the president having assistance blowing right to the guard rails. was this a significant effort that may have succeeded or was he a a bid player? >> in the end of the january 4th meeting with pence, they pushed for a delay. well, you can delay the certification and eastman explains the pence how he can do this and even on january 5th, eastman was talking about the lawyer, the white house council to the vice president about a delay. when you get to january 6th, the talk was about the delay and there is the insurrection of the capitol which leads to a delay. putting aside the legal case of what it means for eastman did. there is a line there about delay that starts from eastman and trump saying it to pence and pushing and pressuring for that. eastman stands apart than the sidney powell and rudy giuliani is that this was someone who conservative lawyers were seen as someone they respected and looked towards. that was someone that could come up with in trying to find things in the constitution of history where he thought he could rationalize it with the president. he was more able than other lawyers to help trump get to the places that trump wanted to get to. there was not anything in history unless he wanted to tear a page in jefferson davis' play book. >> this is sheer treason. if you believe that elections still matter in this country. >> kind of amazing how fox news becomes the executive search recruitment agency for the white house. >> but, mike, there is been reporting that for a period of after the election, trump seemed resigned to the notion that he had not won. he seems to accept it and rudy giuliani got into his ears, i got cases that i can bring up to show that there was election fraud. by the time he got to eastman, is trump fully invested in the notion, does he genuinely believe that he won the election or is he again kind of looking around for people who can spin it out as long as possible and giver it a go and see what lands? >> i am not sure what he believed. what we saw was the republican establishment or parts of their accomplishment or trump's supporters rallying around him. it's after, shortly before christmas that trump reaches out to eastman to ask him to represent him and trying to get action before this supreme court because at that point, you have states like texas, thatessentia. he turns to eastman who was able to do it and file the motion with the supreme court. those don't go anywhere but by december, and by christmas as eastman is on vacation with his family, someone in trump's orbit reaching out to him and says hey, can you help us come up with what can happen around january 6th. it's from christmas vacation that eastman writes the two-page memo that was disclosed in the woodward and costa's book. when ever everything that's given to the president of the united states and the previous administration, it's vetted and passed around and such. here was this lawyer on christmas vacation sending a two-page memo on ways that donald trump could stay in office. >> by the way, if you are watching and you are observer of "morning joe" and our staff is looking for videos. we accidentally put a video of josh gotheimer. >> yeah, just a question for mike schmidt, is it applauding to overthrow the government is illegal? i believe in free speech in this country, is john eastman in some jeopardy and if not, why not? >> well, i am not sure the actual legal answer to that question. but, what continues to surprise me is the fact that none of these issues that at least that i know of or been reported in the media are being looked at by the justice department. we know that the insurrection is being investigated. we know they're looking at how that happened and how these people organized who come and take the building. the larger question of the trump administration of how trump wheeled his power and trying to stay in office and the range of other things that's going on for years are not being examined, based on what we know. i think a lot of people have valid questions about, well, was that the way the government supposed to work. is that legal? can dow that? what does that say to future presidents that may want to stay in power? up until this point, we have commissions on capitol hill that are looking at it. the media continues to look at it and that's it. >> all right, michael schmidt, thank you so much. >> i am asking the same question as jean's asking. if you have somebody inside the white house can spiral overturn an election -- >> how could there be no consequences? >> does the justice department can at least look into that? >> david and jonathan, thank you for coming on. great to see you both. still ahead, on the hills of last night's explosive interview, we'll be joined for the facebook's whistleblower who claims the company chooses profit over safety. now pelosi is giving her caucus another month to get on the same page when it comes to infrastructure. we'll go over to the new timeline for president biden's agenda when jim clyburn is joining our conversation. "morning joe" is coming right back. conversation "morning joe" is coming right back we are the next. the next generation of visionaries. rule breakers. game changers. and world beaters. we certainly aren't here to do what's been done before. and neither are we. at palo alto networks, we are ready to secure our digital future. we innovate to outpace cyberthreats. so you can make the next day safer than the one before. we've got next. i will never tell because i did not come to congress to make friends, so far, mission accomplished. >> let's give the basics. >> roads? >> i like roads. >> roads are where trucks live. >> i want no roads. >> why? >> chaos. >> tell us what you like that's good for you. >> yellow starbursts. >> "saturday night live" with james justin johnson, pretty good. welcome back to "morning joe," eugene robinson and katty kay is still with us. amy walter is joining us, good to have you was. >> amy, there are a lot of democrats that are hoping kirsten sinema and joe manchin and progressives can get together. right now they are the cross fire and we are looking at you tearing the gal. it's hard to run in virginia when there is chaos among your party in washington. >> we have known this. the party in the white house had almost lost the governor's race in virginia next year. the first person to break in in 2013. the other factor is that virginia is getting more blue and we are more polarized than we were even back in 2013, attachment to parties and for or against the other team is still really strong. the enthusiasm is a real challenge. if you have been around northern virginia and drive around in 2017, you can feel that antitrump, this is going to send a message for donald trump to vote for ralph northam and with biden struggling to get things done. >> we have this back and forth, manchin got the signed documents and he told the majority leader he was at 1.5 and he was very, very explicit of what he would vote for or what he would not vote for. chuck signed it and a couple of months later, here we are. manchin is the the state that trump won by 39 points. he may get to 1.75. maybe if you extend it out, he may get to two. that's it. democrats, they're going to have to figure out, do they want $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill or maybe 1.75, reconciliation bill? >> you add that with the $5.4 trillion last year. a lot of money. and yet somehow democrats have figured out how a way to frame that massive outlays. >> it was for one year of this ten-year number. it's mostly completely different number. it's 300 or $400 billion a year will come out of these two bills and mostly funded. it's not comparable to $5 trillion unfunded in one year. it's a fraction of it. manchin focusing on the upticks of the fact that the democrats keep on using ten-year number. they got to give this thing a name. it should be for the kids' or children' future. >> he's talking about the tough line number. stop talking about that. >> you are ahead of the top line number over ten years. talk about the program and what you want to do. and then use whatever time frame you want, a five-year time frame or whatever. >> talk about the program or whatever you are going to do for the american people, talk about what you are going to do for families and college and students? >> right. >> i think you will get further. >> katty, when you talk about the programs, these programs do extraordinary well in polling with the american people. democrats and independence and some republicans. >> the two big groups where biden is losing support in latest polling is losing support among women whether you push a lot of these packages of child care. the other group that he's losing support is particularly younger voters. what do they want to think about. what do they care about? climate change? a lot of these packages are climb change. you got three big components of this package that's exactly with the people that joe biden is losing his polling for. >> is this the challenge when you listen to everybody talk about what do you want and what's in here. they can't agree of what it's they want in this package or how you pay for everything in that package. we are going to be caught without coming up with a name of something. i may not be the we are helping for healthcare in this way or we'll do this climate change. >> but, i say you have a better chance of working those questions than they do bridging the gap. >> well, they have to decide. what is $3.5 trillion -- huge amounts of money get appropriated and how much actually gets spent and does it increase tax receipts in some way. it's all a guess. >> amy, what you just said is critical. they have to decide. joe manchin has sold the leadership and everybody. >> i am in west virginia, i still get to 1.5 or 1.75. he has told them. you have to choose. i know it's all aboutoptics. what did kissinger says perception is reality. >> he can't go back to virginia with a $1.5 trillion deal. >> chuck schumer knew this all along. that's the reason why manchin is baffled of how schumer is handling this. he's got great relationships with nancy pelosi because they're on the phone all the time. ask nancy pelosi, he's talking to pelosi. this is where i am and where i can do. help me out here. this is one of the reasons why nancy was thinking maybe we can get it done. i am going to stay in there. but, chuck schumer is a mystery right now. >> about how he handle -- >> he's known about this since the end of july and joe laid this out and said i don't want to be at this party but i am going to get there for you. we got to come up with a number that allows me to go back to my state. he does believe it's not just about money. he believes this moves too much further to an old welfare state. >> he wrote 3.5 is too much. >> right. >> forget about chuck schumer. the other thing they were expecting is joe biden is going to be in a better position politically. >> right. he was doing so well in terms of the covid issues and other issues that was all going to be taken care of by the end of the summer. we would have hot vaxed summer. he rides that wave of enthusiasm into congress and get everybody to sort of come down. afghanistan and covid really made that much more different. >> help me out here, maybe you have the answer to this. >> maybe not. i will try. >> there is a reason why joe biden, the only moderate democrat that ran because all the other progressives. >> we are progressive and we are proud of it. >> biden is moderate and you look at where he is in this budget negotiations. there is a lot of people that voted for him because he's a moderate going, why is he running so far left? why is he closer to them? he's hammering the two moderates? he did start out with the six trillion dollars. >> they're not going to get $6 trillion. >> all the progressives. well, bernie wants $6 trillion. >> well, good for money. >> let me say here, this is a good crisis going to waste. this is a massive one in a generation ability to shift the whole american to reset, the pandemic bought out and crystallize all weaknesses. he's talking about the lack of women's participation. like child care and parental leaves, this is desperate stuff for the 21st century. an opportunity to impose. you can rebate people of 100,000. i think i would dispute the idea this is a radical massive telephone number pieces of legislation. i think these are relatively moderate centrists. >> these are teenage rebellions. >> a serious argument. >> even if you read of all of that - >> even if you agree on all of that that this is much needed for the health of the country, you got to have a mandate to do it. >> i would agree with the politics of this. i am trying to make the case. you have -- >> so katty, let me ask you this. >> where was my teenage rebellion? >> katty, you said in 2009 when people like me were afraid that all of this spending moving down to socialist path and newscast headline that we are all socialists now. you are americans, you would make the worst in the world because you don't find yourself by working your children. nothing else. not vacations or second or third homes. it's work, work, work. in this case, there are people like joe manchin and kirsten sinema and many others think this is too much of a lurch towards european style socialism. they point to the shortage of workers this summer. and mika and i, people in think tanks say what they want. everywhere we went, how are you doing? well, we can't find any workers. get their money and they're staying at home this summer. they don't want to work. it's still going into the fall. that was a shock to a lot of small business employees. and so i think there is a fear that again massive out lays may strange the structure. >> when those enhanced unemployment benefits run out, people don't rush back to take you know $12 an hour job. they don't. i think -- >> what do they do? >> well. >> and so if there were two incomes in a family and two low incomes but if one person was spending money on gas and another car and you know bus or retro or whatever to get to low-paying jobs working long hours and coming home and then having in the end and being able to show that and so covid happened and everything had to stay home. some people decided, that's not worth it. if you offer people more money, they'll come back to work. that's one of the problems. one of the problems is this incredible inequality have grown and for low and middle income americans, their income stagnated over 20 or 30 years. >> that's the old lobster found in southwest maine. >> and gas stations have signs up saying we'll pay you $20 an hour working at our convenient stores. there are a lot of small business owners can't afford that. that's going to put a lot of business owners out of business. i am glad that costco is making $15 an hour. all of this money coming from the federal government and going into the economy. big companies can handle it but small companies can't. >> we got inflation pressure and for regular folks going into the grocery stores saying this costs a lot more. the number one issue for voters is my everyday costs are more. all of this pushing whether you call it socialism which we are going to hear a lot in the midterm elections or you are just a voter feeling the pressure of things costing more and not having enough. >> the democrats is the label of socialism the last time around. i don't know why they never went down. i spoke to cuban community and really pushing back. if you want to rearrange the furniture of american government, you have to have a big enough mandate to do it. you can't ran it through with the tiny minorities you have in a moment in a country where people are resistant to it. the label socialism is known. you are not a socialist country but it's all too easy to come up with the idea. >> is this stuff angela merkel will be happy with? this is not the radical lbj, both defenders -- >> you don't think it's. you think that's anover statement this is biden trying to be lbj? >> defenders of the bill and cryptics are making the same point. >> amy, is it easier to sell these individually, putting a climate change bill up right now climate change is real because of what we do about. and this huge bus of package gets pushed aside. >> we know in this current culture, there is only one train that leads the station now in politics and congress. and you got to put on as much as you can. once that train leaves, there is not another one coming up behind it. that's where we are in legislation in this era. >> i would be remissed not to ask you who's going to win in 2022? >> he got you. >> maybe the election we have right now. democrats are in a really bad spot in the house. they got a five-seat majority, they got a president who's under water. we don't know where he's going to be and redistricting which could be republicans are going to do okay. not great like they did in 2010 but put all of those together, that's really, really hard. >> and you have to go back to when? 2002 for a time when the party in power - >> after 9/11. >> and '98 before that. no president is going to be at 68% going into that. >> amy walter, thank you to being on. we want answers facebook and instagram can have on young users. we'll talk to richard blumenthal featuring the facebook's whistleblower. you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. e watching we'll be right back. helen knew exercise could help her diabetes... but she didn't know what was right for her. no. nope. no way. but then helen went from no to know with freestyle libre 14 day, now she knows what activity helps lower her glucose. and can see what works best for her. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. freestyle libre 14 day. now covered by medicare for those who qualify. hi, i'm steve and i live in austin, texas. i work as a personal assistant freestyle libre 14 day. to the owner of a large manufacturing firm. i've got anywhere from 10 to 50 projects going at any given time. i absolutely have to be sharp. let me tell ya, i was struggling with my memory. it was going downhill. my friend recommended that i try prevagen and over time, it made a very significant difference in my memory and in my cognitive ability. i started to feel a much better sense of well-being. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. ♪ i'm a reporter for the new york times. if you just hold it like this. yeah. ♪ i love finding out things that other people don't want me to know. mm-hmm. [beep] i just wanted to say... ♪ find yourself in these situations and see who you are. and that's just part of the bargain. ♪ welcome back to "morning joe," a former facebook employee turned whistleblower is set to testify against the social media giant at a senate hearing tomorrow. she accused the company choosing profit over public safety and says she has the documents to prove it. nbc news' halie jackson has the details. >> reporter: explosive information from a former facebook's employer. >> haugin coming publicly for the first time. before the riot in capitol, facebook turned offsettings combatting the threat of dangerous -- >> as soon as the election was over, they turned it off to prioritize growth over safety. >> reporter: haugen armed with tens of thousands of documents points to an algorithm. more people clicks on posts that make them angry, the algorithms will change them to angry ads. >> reporter: facebook now launching an intense defense. >> the sweeping assertion of violence after january 6th can be explained by social media is a simplification of the much wider division in society. >> reporter: a memo obtained by nbc news, while the country rolled back some of its emergency measures, it kept other in place. the company's person says to suggest we encourage bad content and do nothing is not true. >> since 2016, we spent $13 billion on security. we have 40,000 people working on security. i have seen the constant iteration and improvements. we made along the way. >> that whistleblower will testify tomorrow. richard blumenthal of connecticut is joining us now is also a member of the judiciary committee. thank you for being here senator. it's incredible seeing here how your office set up an instagram account for a 13-year-old girl, a fake account, talked about her insecurity and within a day, what were receiving from instagram? >> thanks for having me, joe, on this important topic that you and i focused on years. the danger of kids and dragging children into dark places and hiding their insecurity. we created an account for a 13-year-old who express interests in dieting and weight loss. within a day she was flood with recommendations on eating disorders and self image. those accounts were not taken down even though that 13 years old complained to facebook. only when in fact others like -- networks with accounts taken down. there is a striking similarity here being tobacco in the files that have been deleted. there was a moment we discovered big tobacco have shown addictive effects of smoking and similar with these files, facebook knows these documents and whistleblower is a result of their own studies done not just a couple of times but more than ten. that's one of the striking features. >> you know, senator, facebook have done it for years. all you have to do is subscribe whether it's a financial times of the wall street journal and you have seen studies after studies showing the negative impact that instagram have on teenage girls and young women and social media in general and instagram in particular. you hear the same three things. the same three things, it promotes anxiety and depression and suicidals. facebook are still denying it and moving forward. >> that's one of my questions for thewhistleblower. what more is there? how can we change the algorithm? what kind of scrutiny can be imposed. this woman is an expert as an algorithms. there is no trust in facebook, we need to hold them accountable and make sure there is better disclosure and facebook is held to a high standard. they view these online bullying and eating disorder - >> this sort of gives them some color to why these things happen and especially young girls, these sites, facebook and instagram and snap chat, all the 365, not like when we are growing up. kids can see where their friends are if they are not at a party or if they were not invited to something, everybody has everybody on a map and they follow each other and they text each other, they communicate by texts or social media by dm. they communicated in ways that's disjointed or painful and one does not know the other is hurting and they see these images that are impossible, impossible to live up to. scrolling on their phones and kids as young as 10 or 11 or 12 on their phones and on instagram and other social media sites becoming more and more depressed of images that are impossible and they are struggling with their friends because communications are not human based. human to human. and we have not gotten to disinformation which happens on facebook as well. and people literally getting their news from facebook, most of which is contorted or twisted or not backed up by standards and bad information. my question for you, senator, you have to be held accountable, how? and when? >> you have talked about section 230 which gives all these big tech almost absolute immunity. that's how big tech and big tobacco. they should be sued for the kind of harm they are doing consciously to boost profits. they made money from what you just described so powerfully. there needs to be more disclosure and more transparency. just listen to the barrage of criticisms and challenge. you would not known why it was republicans or democrats. i think i am protecting children. there is a lot of bipartisan consensus. we need to seize this moment and make the public more aware as what you have just done, the heighten insecurities and anxieties are weaponized by instagram. weaponized for profits. that's what the documents are shown. i want facebook to commit making all the documents public. >> that's what documents show and that's what parents know. that's what middle schools and high school teachers know and college deans know. it's a universal problem. thank you so much for all your work on it, senator blumenthal. we greatly appreciate it. let's bring in one of the attorneys representing the facebook's whistleblower. thank you for being with us. katty kay has the first question. >> i will pick up from what the senator was saying. he asked at the beginning of the interview, what else does the whistleblower have and what else is show going to divulge? >> she left facebook with tens of thousands of pages of documents. mostly internal research. a lot of internal communications and some documents that were edited and including comments going up to the mark zuckerberg and covering a wide range of issues. teen mental health is a focus to date. also, francis is amazing because she has a very detailed understanding of the algorithms underlying the core products and how hateful divisive is promoted in the platform. we'll see a much more sophisticated understanding of how these algorithms work. they're going to have a lot of implications of what's in this country and other country before elections, including some of the misinformation, january 6th. as simple as incumbents were given free ride that challengers were not given. so facebook is swinging elections without knowing it. in other countries, there is clear evidence that facebook platforms have been used to essentially forming ethnic violence perpetuate lies, that have led to thousands of people being killed. >> what francis think should be done? what is the remedy that she sees is holding facebook responsible as a publisher or breaking facebook up? what's the solution? >> she has a lot of thoughtful ideas. >> she made lawful disclosure, the argument there is facebook deliberately misled investors and held important information from investors. those are actionable misconduct that the sec can bring a lawsuit against facebook for. we made disclosures to state attorney generals' offices. california, tennessee and nebraska and others. some of who have been involved in teen mental health specifically. so we are hoping for some interests there and on essentially claims that where state's ags sometimes will do this when there is a serious problem, tobacco or opioid or asbestos and other things, we'll come together holding accountable of companies perpetuaing this. and congress has a role of legislating these. we have been in touch with regulators and members of the european parliament and regulate ers and france. clearly europe has a role to play here as well. >> and the algorithms after the election and they turn it back to make again. make it more negative and keep people on the site longer and angrier. while you were talking, i got a text from a friend of ours, i get this every time we talk about facebook, they watched all of their daughters or friends suffering one point or another from these platforms. no more generations of children devastated like ours. >> it impacted several generations of young people. and parents seemingly no control over it. your child should not be on instagram. guess whose kids are on social media? anybody out in silicon valley who run these companies because they know the dangers and they don't let their kids have accounts. all kids have phones for safety reasons and they're on it all the time. >> it's often we look at one platform and then generalize so much from that one platform and people can say all of social media is bad. in this case, with mental health for teenage girls, no. there are not a lot of problem. instagram is the curse for menial health for teenage girls. >> the internal research that francis has provided the to the government shows first of all, instagram is worst than other social media apps like pinterest or some of the others in terms of mental health. facebook knows the substantial users their product generates addictive behavior. the girls are children. >> let's be very clear about this. >> the children will say i want to stop but i can't shut it off. i am trying to get to sleep but i can't turn it off. >> what's stopping their action here? what's the biggest roadblock to doing something? >> facebook donates to every member of congress. it's a big, trillion dollars company. they have as many lawyers as money can buy. they're good at defending themselves. they're putting out positive stories and such a great company, they're doing positive things as well. so, you know i think time will tell whether this disclosure and we hope this does enough to push people to act. >> all right, john tye, thank you very much for coming on the show. we appreciate it. coming up, congressman jim clyburn joins the conversation to discuss democrats' path forward on infrastructure. across the country, thousands of protesters marched on saturday in an effort to protect roe v. wade. we'll talk about the ban out of texas. 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nothing -- >> let's go to chelsea. >> nothing like this. oh, look at this. a shooting gallery ending with chillwell and a fastball of a finish straight down the pipe. they are now top. yeah for excel spread sheets. and manchester united hos -- injuries stricken everton runs on fumes but this is like the scene from rocky iv where old rocky realizes he can bleed. and then look at this. ronaldo's signature celebration. manchester united the og media of the premier league. >> you say that with daddy here. it burns. >> i'm a sort of city arsenal fan. >> i was on way too early this morning. i get all these sports stories, baseball. i have no idea. viewers, i'm honest, why don't they give me the prep? at least i'd know the teams. a fighting chance. >> you know miles per hour i do. double k. >> double k? >> k squared. >> we call her special k. >> actually, that's a drug. it's doing the rounds of nightclubs in berlin. >> i thought it was a breakfast cereal. >> this has gone off the rails. >> roger, let's talk about excel spread sheets. i went with liverpool. i love the rain and they hadn't won in 25 years. my son picked chelsea. and i said my god, you might as well be cheering for microsoft, but microsoft is doing pretty well right now at the top of the league. i don't know that we saw that coming. >> well, american sports, which is the most capitalist society in the world, you have in your sports teams, franchises, salary caps, socialism for rich guy owners. there's none of that in the premier league. at tend of the day, we're just cheering for money, for excel spread sheets. this week the united states men pick up their qualification for world cup. it will be in qatar. >> roger bennett, thank you very much. and it's great to have you on. ed loose, your latest piece for the financial times is entitled we should pay more heed to alarmists. >> it sounds like very optimistic way to start the week. fill us in. >> i was responding to the bob kagen piece and my colleague martin wolf wrote a piece called the "the strange death of more than democracy". >> just to push back, haven't we been hearing this? i remember my 7th grade teacher in 1975 saying we're going the way of the roman empire. look at water gate and the collapse of our economy, we're going to be like the roman empire. we predicted this at the end of the 80s. >> there's a thin line between reason-based alarm. what might happen. i think we're in that situation. if amy, her prediction that the dems will lose next year and trump will be the nominee in 2024, alarm is merited. i think her point that there's a lack of enthusiasm in the virginia governor's race, that is a problem. it's very, very hard to maintain energy. but there's a thin line between that and complete idiotic panic. i'm defending this side. i'm defending this side of the line. there is a case for being alarmed. we should not normalize what is going on here. we talked earlier on about joe manchin. i think the most important joe manchin vote is whether he will temporarily suspend the filibuster to pass for the people act. that's the most important thing in front of us, and there's grounds for being skeptical that he's going to do that. in which case, we're in trouble. >> it's critical at the very least, the democrats figure out a way to take the power away from republican legislators who said we're going to take the power away from the people who count the votes, and we can decide what votes we want to count or not. that is not what the constitution -- when they wanted -- that is the existential threat. not suspending the rules they had in place during covid and going back to what the rules were. that is, by the way, that is up to the states. we can find it contemptible. but there are things that need to be focussed on. ly say the only thing about the kagen piece which i loved. i think it's important that your piece and kagen's piece gets written, is, i would be far more alarmed if it were not for the fact that we had one branch that was the bulwark for western democracy and that was our federal judiciary. one case after another. one trump judge after another. one obama judge after another. one bush judge after another said no, get it out of here. and if you even argue it, i'm going to sanction you. >> yeah. the judiciary held, we shouldn't have been in -- that last line of defense. right? that's number one. number two, alarmism is always ridiculous and absurd until it's not. >> january 6th. >> something really bad happened on january 6th, and we should pay attention. >> agreed. >> thank you to you all. new data on covid -- >> can i say quickly. we have to go to break, but we want to make a statement. we want to let everybody know that ed luce has forged his own path. he is not following his father's footprints. >> thank you. >> wanted to clear that up. >> there was unrest on the streets. >> exactly. i did not want to cause problems. you clarified that. i wanted to underline it. >> okay. so, again, covid is reinforcing two points. number one, vaccines work. and number two, so do the mandates that enforce them. how policies to protect businesses are having to slow the spread. 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today, susan page with us. columnist and associate editor for the washington post david ignatius, and national reporter for axios, jonathan swat. i keep thinking about that face all over twitter because of your award. >> what? >> yeah, that one. >> then, of course, all this baseball stuff happened last night, and joe and mike and mike lupika, they want to talk about it. >> well, i tell you, we -- yeah, i was actually -- i was actually at the game, and then i had to leave near the end. >> why did you leave? >> i can't say who we were speaking with, but we had reporting duty, and it was a very important -- >> that's not why you left. >> meeting, and my phone started blowing up. it was my friends about the red sox. mike, it was what, a terrible runup. swept last week. yankees lost two out of three to baltimore. they swept the nationals, and i've got to say, i went to all three games, and a packed park for the last three days. >> yeah. well, joe, as you know, i'm old, but i'm much older today than i was on friday morning. i mean, those were three emotionally charged games. congratulations to the nationals. they don't have much. they have a young fella, probably the best player in major league baseball, but they hung in there, and it was two days of just psychological, emotional nightmares for red sox fans. topped off by that home run in the ninth inning yesterday that put the red sox into the prospect of a wild card game. tomorrow night in boston against the new york yankees. you saw that clip at the opening. so the saga continues. the dream continues. >> the dream. the dream never dies. exactly. it is -- it's insanity. i mean, this is a team that some fans have cursed throughout the year. a gutsy team for the first half of the season. looked like the 2013 red sox last half, just looked like a run away beer truck. you never know where it was going to end up. but mike, it was fascinating. this is a team that time and again gets behind 5-1 and somehow manages to come back. the st. louis cardinals football team in the 1970s was called the cardiac kids. yeah. there's no doubt across new england and the country this team giving its fans heart palpitations. it keeps coming back because, i'll say it, big poppy's, successor, devers. >> it's funny. mike, you, and all people who love baseball know the beauty of baseball is the long season, and it's so long that people forgot all the gloom and doom about the red sox after they opened the season by getting swept at home by the orioles and went onto lose about 9,000 games this season. and everything that unfolded yesterday with all the possibilities and you know this. looking at all the playoff possibilities on the last day, i felt like i was trying to fill out a form to get back into boston college again. it came down to the red sox having to win to stay out of a game today with the toronto blue jays who nobody wanted to play, and now it sets up -- you know, the red sox and yankees these days is a great rivalry. too often in name only. but it won't be tomorrow night, because what one of the rare times in baseball history, they will play a win or go home game for each of them, and i am old enough that i was there on october 2nd, 1987, when buck can i dead hit the home run in a different format. when the red sox and yankees played, one of the most famous games in baseball history. this will have that feel, even though the world series is on the line, just to get to st. petersburg next weekend. >> listen, don never should have put bob beetle bailey up to pitch in the 9th inning or the red sox could have won that game. i've held that grudge since 1978. >> let it go, mike. let it go. >> you're right. the beauty of baseball, the magic of baseball and joe and you and i, we've spoken about this multiple times. you cannot script this game. you sort of knew what would happen in the patriot's buccaneers game last night, but you can't script baseball. you had no way of knowing for sure devers was going to hit that three-run, two-run homer and virtually win the game. you have no idea of what w.h.o. is going to get thrown out or make a stupid running mistake. joe, we've seen this game multiple times. it changes every time you go to the ballpark. you might see something you never saw before. >> yeah. yeah. just heart breaking often, but no, they pulled three yesterday. extraordinary. guys, thank you so much for being with us. and i'm sure i'll see you up in boston tuesday night very late. >> oh, god, and mike's latest book "stone's throw" reached number three on the top seller's list. congratulations on that. >> thanks so both of you. anybody want to talk about the nationals? i'm telling you, i went in there. i expected there to be like 14 people, and a hound dog just like -- they were engaged to the last place team, and i've never seen such fan support like i saw this weekend. >> they're in a rebuilding phase. they traded way max scherzer, trai turner. they're two of the best pitchers. an decided it was time to rebuild. which -- i think they'll be pretty good at. they have juan soto who is for my money the best player in baseball. certainly the best hitter. he is amazing and 22 years old. so the first priority make sure sot so locked in for life. and then put in the pieces around him. it's going to -- i think they're going to put together a good team, and i think they're going to be a lot of fun to watch. >> okay. now that we've got that out of our system, up next a major development with facebook. what a whistleblower is saying about the failure to cancel the cause of harm. first the forecast. good monday morning. good thing they're not going to play the yankee game in fen way tonight. a rainy day. i started last night. now we're continuing to watch the rain. if you're driving this morning on i-95 from boston south, hartford to providence, that's the rainier areas there over the new england region. and if we go to the south, we are watching some rain also down along the florida panhandle and some of the rain is in and out of atlanta today with minor travel problems. one thing we have to watch, it's only a 10% chance of development. there's a tropical disturbance. some of the moisture could go toward the east coast. we'll wait and see how it plays out. i don't think anything big is going to develop. if you're trying to make plans, we could be watching rainy weather heading your way. for today, there's the rain in the northeast. middle of the country looks great. as we go through the middle of the week, we're going to watch that rainy weather staying in the southeast. it is a very warm week of october. pretty much from coast to coast with that rain lingering on the southeast coast right through the end of the week into friday. as we take a look at the forecast for today, some of the worst weather in the northeast, rainy, cloudy, gloomy. that's the big apple view right now in new york city. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ i'm a reporter for the new york times. if you just hold it like this. yeah. ♪ i love finding out things that other people don't want me to know. mm-hmm. [beep] i just wanted to say... ♪ find yourself in these situations and see who you are. and that's just part of the bargain. ♪ first psoriasis, then psoriatic arthritis. it was really holding me back. standing up... ...even walking was tough. my joints hurt. i was afraid things were going to get worse. i was always hiding, and that's just not me. not being there for my family, that hurt. woooo! i had to do something. i started cosentyx®. i'm feeling good. watch me. cosentyx helps people with psoriatic arthritis move, look, and feel better. it targets more than just joint pain and treats the multiple symptoms like joint swelling and tenderness, back pain, helps clear skin and helps stop further joint damage. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections—some serious —and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. it's good to be moving on. watch me. move, look, and feel better. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. a former facebook employee who leaked thousands of pages of the company's internal research to the wall street journal revealed her identity in a 60 minutes interview that aired last night. she's a former project manager for facebook and says her goal has been to help prompt change at the social media giant. when she quit the company in may, she took a trove of private research with her. some of it showing how facebook knowingly amplifies hate, misinformation, and public unrest. >> the thing i saw at facebook over and over was there were conflicts of interest between what was good for the public and what was good for facebook. and facebook over and over again chose to optimize for its own interests like making more money. you have your phone. you might see only 100 pieces of content if you sit and scroll for five minutes. but facebook has thousands of options they could show you. >> the algorithm picks from those options based on the kind of content you've engaged with the most in the past. >> and one of the consequences of how facebook is picking out that content today is that it is on the optimizing for content that gets engagement or reaction, but its own research is showing that content that is hateful, that is divisive, that is polarizing, it's easier to inspire people to anger than it is to other emotions. >> misinformation, angry content is enticing to people. >> very enticing. >> and keeps them on the platform. >> yes. facebook has realized if they change it to be safer, they'll make less money. >> she says facebook understood the danger to the 2020 election, so it turned on safety systems to reduce misinformation. many of those changes, she says, were temporary. >> and as soon as the election was over, they turned them back off or they changed the science back to what they were before to prioritize growth over safety. and that really feels like a betrayal of democracy to me. >> you know, ted lasso a couple weeks ago on the show said i used to think good people went to heaven and bad people went to hell. i found out we're all both. i'm not really sure how it works out. and the older i get, the more i realize that's the case with corporations, that sort of thing. i'm not so sure we're in the gray area here with facebook. this is -- they have documents that say their products destroy young girl's lives if you give young girls suicidal ideations. young girls. they really undermine american democracy by becoming the organizing place for riots at the capitol and across the world. i mean, i could -- i could just keep going on. the lies that they willingly spread about the pandemic that kills people. this -- it's -- it's hard in my lifetime to think about a company more out of control and one person, mark zuckerberg, more unaccountable to american democracy, to health care, to our children than mark zuckerberg. >> the real question is what's going to be done about it on capitol hill. >> why don't they do anything about it? >> so this is -- the reason this story is really interesting is counter intuitively, i think it probably makes it less likely they're going to get properly regulated. we're heading toward a situation where republicans are probably going to take control of the house unless democrats have a historic cycle, defy history, that's what's going to happen. and all the things that that whistleblower is complaining about, misinformation, hate speech, et cetera, republicans put under the bucket of censoring conservatives. they have no desire to go down the regulatory path that she is drawing for them. so what you have, it's two sides who both hate facebook but for different reasons, and they are in a complete sort of -- they'll cause all this noise and stir and whatever, but they can't actually get together and figure out a sensible, rational, bipartisan path of reform. >> let me respectfully disagree. i think one reason facebook has evaded regulation is these issues are so complicated. so many of the lawmakers on capitol hill do not really have an understanding about how the platforms work and what they do. but the issue of making teenage girls feel bad about themselves, even contemplate killing themselves is something that republicans and democrats can agree on. it's something that's understandable and gives you an opening wedge into a more serious examination of what the government's role ought to be in regulating facebook. >> here's what they say. by the way, hougen is scheduled to testify before congress tomorrow. facebook put out a statement in response to the 60 minutes segment writing in part this. quote, every day our teams have tried to balance protecting the right of billions of people to express themselves openly with the need to keep our platform a safe and positive place. we continue to make significant improvements to tackle the spread of misinformation and harmful content. to suggest we encourage bad content and do nothing is just not true. >> it actually is true. that statement is a lie. everybody knows that statement is a lie. they have algorithms, david, that encourage hate speech. they have algorithms that encourage lies about the virus. they have algorithms that encourage people to not get vaccines and to choke to death with a ventilator shoved down their throat. that's on facebook time and time again. and why am i so upset about this? because i have friends. i have relatives. i have people who call me every day with another horrific story. mika this weekend was visiting her daughter. somebody came up to her. knew she was on this show. said hey, is it true? and i won't even fill in the blank. >> ridiculous things. >> and mika said you need to stop reading facebook and start reading the news. >> not for the first time, let's hit on something. if you're not happy with what social media is doing to you, the way the algorithms are driving you toward crazier and crazier content and behavior, get off social media. and millions and millions of young people, people around the country, are doing just that. facebook is the public square that we inhabit. and you can walk away from that square. i get worried whenever i hear about regulation of content. we say regulate facebook. regulating the content that we get scares me. >> hold on. hold on. let me follow up. if in the 1960s cbs news had over 50% of the market share, and walter cronkite was putting on one misinformation piece coming from russia and then a misinformation piece talking about the measles, do you think the fcc would crack down on him? they would. >> there was a doctrine that would have required him to behavior in a publicly responsible way. >> why does facebook live from different rules than every other corporation. >> i don't think they should. "the washington post" is not regulated but we are subjected being sued. if we get something wrong, somebody files a libel suit. and facebook isn't. and to me, the beginning of wisdom here is just to say facebook has become a publisher. it's how we get our information. and it's a publisher that drives us toward more and more extreme content. you say you like something and so facebook's algorithm says give joe more like that. >> what would happen, gene, if the washington post wrote 12 times that i was a murder? you know what i would do? i would have the most wonderful home in nantucket. >> yeah. >> wherever i wanted that. facebook can do that time and again? >> yeah. >> they can spread lies about everybody. and nothing. they publish it. zuckerberg makes billions of dollars. he's worth about $100 billion. and they go oh, we're not publishers. it's just garbage. >> yeah. we have to -- that definition of platform that somehow is not a publisher but is in actuality, that needs to change. we also need to have transparency on the algorithm. right? because they're opaque about exactly what it is and how it works, and they keep saying well, we tweaked it this way or we fixed it or -- but -- so tell us how. i mean, there are people who understand how to write and rewrite algorithms out there. i'm not one of them. but we have plenty of them at "the washington post" who would be qualified to examine it and to understand exactly how it works. that lack of transparency seems to me something that could be fixed. >> coming up, a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning including the effort to contain a damaging oil spill in southern california. the latest on that and much more when "morning joe" comes right when "morning joe" comes right back. finally yasso! a ridiculously creamy, crunchy, chocolatey dipped ice cream experience with 25% less calories because it's made with greek yogurt. so, thanks for everything ice cream, but we'll take it from here. yasso audaciously delicious >> a massive oil spill in the pacific ocean has forced california to close some of its beaches. nbc news correspondent emily ikata has the latest. >> reporter: a race against time. authorities frantically working to slow the spread of a major oil spill. a pipeline off the coast of orange county in southern california bumping 126,000 gallons of oil into the pacific, spanning 13 square miles. >> we're in the midst of a potential ecological disaster here. >> reporter: the leak began saturday. the pipeline company says the line has been shut down, but they do not know what caused it to fail. >> we currently have divers on location, the potential source site. we are investigating the source and potential cause. >> reporter: a major concern, wildlife. toxic blobs washing ashore and infiltrating treasured wetlands. >> we've already received reports of many, many animals being covered in oil. >> reporter: health officials warning it could be harmful to humans, too. the mess a stain to southern california's typically pristine beaches. but what you can't say, the awful smell. it will give you a headache in minutes. the area seeing an influx of visitors because of the iconic pacific air show what was cancelled. many passing time now at area beaches despite calls to avoid the sand and sea. people are in the water. does that concern you? >> it does concern me. the toxic fumes are present in the air, and it might be impactful to your health. >> reporter: an ecological nightmare growing. covid-19 cases and hospitalizations are dropping. "the washington post" reports hospital admissions crested above a weekly average of 100,000 in early september, and are still at levels not seen since the winter. before vaccines were widely available. new infections plateaued in the first half of september averaging about 150,000 daily and are on track to slip below 100,000. the report attributes the decline to a sharp drop in new cases in southern states hit hard by the delta variant. meanwhile, more covid vaccine mandates will go into effect today in parts of the country, leaving many concerned over staffing shortages for critical jobs. lindsey riser has the latest. >> reporter: one of the strictest vaccine mandates in the country goes into effect. connecticut demanding all state workers get vaccinated, commit to weekly testing or face suspension. >> i'm concerned about making sure we're well prepared if there's another delta and keeping our schools open and our economy going. >> reporter: the governor preparing the national guard to step in if necessary. the state's health commissioner hoping that won't be the case. >> we are looking at really having so many of our people vaccinated that they will not be necessary. but at this point, things are still being tabulated. >> reporter: in new york city fears of a staffing shortage in the largest school district in america. all teachers must be vaccinated. no testing option. some 10,000 employees may not be allowed to work. the mayor says substitutes are standing by and that most teachers are vaccinated. >> 93% of our teachers, 98% of our principals. the bottom line is this mandate has worked. >> reporter: this teacher will not be showing up. >> now you're taking away their go-to person. >> reporter: she said she had asymptomatic covid in the spring of last year. >> i've had many doctors say to me you don't need it right now. maybe in the future. >> reporter: and while the data director saw the highest reported increase of vaccinations in a month, the nation's top doctor says it's too soon to tell whether we can gather for the holidays. >> we've got to concentrate on continuing to get the numbers down and not try to jump ahead by weeks or months and say we're going to do it at a particular time. >> the teacher said that she talked to many doctors that told her she didn't need the vaccine. like, what? dr. john? >> right. >> exactly. what doctor would tell her that? there's not one that would tell her that. one thing we have found is that mandates work. >> yeah, they do. >> everybody says we're going to quit. we're going to walk off the job. small percentage walk off the job and that's a small price to pay to keep everybody safe. >> to keep everybody safe. >> good call. >> they got 99.5% compliance so far. i mean, everybody got -- who wasn't vaccinated got vaccinated. >> i heard from people in the military, if they make me get the vaccine -- you have to get the vaccine -- okay. >> if you -- you have to be vaccinated for a bunch of things. >> like, 19 things. >> your arm hurts for weeks. >> it's approved. >> yeah. just add this. it's just another vaccination. >> susan, the craziest thing is that, again, one of the reasons why i don't think as many people quit is because maybe their memory kicks in and they go oh, wait, i had to get my children six volcanos before they could go to kindergarten. my parents had to get me six vaccines before i could go to kindergarten. i mean, this is -- we do this as a country when required. >> yeah. and only a matter of time, i think, until most states add the covid vaccine to the list of vaccinations that kids have to get at the appropriate age before they go to school. coming up, the latest on infrastructure with majority whip jim clyburn. why he says you may not need a $3.5 trillion price tag to do what the president wants done. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." e. oh! are you using liberty mutual's coverage customizer tool? so you only pay for what you need. sorry? limu, you're an animal! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no.' everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 14 day, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to... and...when he wants to. so ray...can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us the infrastructure bill. delayed indefinitely, so i guess we'll just cross that bridge when it collapses on top of it. >> democratic leadership now says october 31st is it new target date to pass both the bipartisan infrastructure bill and the larger reconciliation legislation. in a letter to the democratic caucus over the weekend, speaker nancy pelosi wrote in part, out of respect for our colleagues who support the bills and out of recognition for the need for both, i would not bring the bipartisan infrastructure bill to the floor to fail. again, we will and must pass both bills soon. we have the responsibility and the opportunity to do so. meanwhile, negotiations continue over the size and scope of the reconciliation bills as progressives continue to diminish senator joe manchin's $1.5 trillion price tag. >> so if we're not looking at numbers of, what about 1.5? >> that's not going to happen. it's going to be somewhere -- >> why won't it add up to that number? >> that's too small to get the priorities in. it's going to be somewhere between 1.5 and 3.5, and i think the white house is working on that right now, because remember we want to deliver child care, paid leave, housing. >> this is not a wish list. this is what the working families of this country want and what the economy needs. the real question is will the republicans of course are owned by the pharmaceutical industry and fossil fuel industry. we don't expect them to do anything. the question is is whether democrats can come together. i think we can to finally do what working families want us to do. >> we have guests with us to discuss this. good to have you both. joining us now, the third ranking democrat in the house. majority whip, jim clyburn of south carolina, great to have you, sir, on the show this morning. >> jim, good to see you. to be a democratic whip, that's like you're corralling, my friend, corralling cats. it's not easy to do. but are you confidence in the end you guys are going to figure out a way to come together? >> well, thank you very much for having me, joe, and mika. yes, i am confident we will. i just listened to what senator sanders said. we are very, very close to this. they are saying that today exactly what i said you may recall two weeks ago. but this thing is going to be somewhere between 1.5 and 3.5, but i don't think that is where we ought to be having our discussion. we need to be talking about what needs to be done. and then put the price tag on it after we decide exactly what we need to do to get people back to work. a lot of the women have drop the out of the work force. there are other kinds of facilities that really need workers who are not able to operate because people need to take care of their children, so what do we need to do? we need to have the child tax credit, put it into place. we need to expand medicaid so that people can get the help they need. and, of course, we need to do something about expanding medicare. but we should not do one at the expense of the other. the other thing we need to do as i've heard on your show this morning, we need to stop talking about these ten-year numbers. that's what got people so out of whack. they don't realize that when you use that 3.5 number, you're talking about ten years. people think in terms of budgeting, one, two, three, and times five years, unless it's your house mortgage, you don't think in terms beyond that. so if we can get this discussion to focus on exactly what we're trying to do, to get people back to work with the economy and moving again, i think we'll get to a good place. >> okay. so you named those three priorities including in all of this, and if we're talking in five-year spans, what's a reasonable number? >> well, i'm not going to deal with the number. because that's not the only program i care about. i do care about affordable housing which we have in the program, and we're not talking about just yet. there are a lot of things that we need to do to get our country back in pursuit of perfection. we can't do that when people have not gotten beyond this pandemic. i'm pleased with the numbers i'm hearing now about coronavirus krfr, but i'm hear in south carolina and i can tell you, we've got a real problem with covid-19, and we need to do what's necessary to get beyond that. so there are a lot of priorities we have that i would like to see us address. but i hope we will stop talking about these ten-year numbers and start focusing on what we need to do in the near-term to get our economy stimulated, to get people motivated and get our whole country back on track. >> jim, we have ya mine here with a question. >> progressives showed they had the muscle to hold up a vote. i wonder if you can talk about the power dynamics at play and your message as you're trying to bridge the gap between aoc talking about taxing the rich and senator manchin talking about vengeful taxing. >> any time you have four people, you can hold up the vote. and so progressive-like caucus has 67 people. they can hold up a vote. so there's not a single culprit in existence who cannot hold up the vote. we need to start thinking about what is common ground. where that common ground is. and so yes, we need to -- for the rich to pay their fair share. everybody knows they have not been paying their fair share over recent years, and we need to do something about that. i do believe that the corporate numbers, corporate tax rate should go up from '21. even the round table. the business round table never wanted to go below 25. nobody knows how it got to 21. we need to move it up to 26.5 or 27 and for everybody to be able to participate. every ceo that i sat down and talked to over the last several months said to me, it shouldn't be under 25. i think it should be around 27 or 28. but if we go to 25, they will give us a head room we need in order to build out a budget a people can all benefit from. >> it's interesting, joe manchin talking about actually repealing the trump tax cuts, because that would give democrats more money to work with. you neen daniels has a question for you. >> good to see you again. i want to kind of move off infrastructure and into a lot of other things democrats say they want to get done. you brought president biden back from the brink. we've talked about that over and over again. and something he said and has promised is to have black people's backs. something i've continued to hear from activists and from normal black voters is that where is the voting rights? where is the criminal justice reform? where are the civil rights that we were promised? i'm curious what you think the president should be doing more on those issues. >> it's all on the horizon. thank you for the question. first things first, if most -- some states have already started to redistribute district. in south carolina we don't take that up until december. in most instances, there's still room to work on the gun rights act. we have to get people -- we need to get these two pieces of legislation dealing with the economy done. and we are going to do that by the end of this month. and then i hope we will then focus directly on what we can do about voting. and i am hopeful that the so-called john r lewis voting rights act and the hr 19 s-1, i think they ought to be merged into one piece of legislation. i'm not going to tell the senate how to do its business. i am going to say to the leadership and the senate, i'm talking to people on the streets every day, and i know that they would love to see us get this done in one fell swoop. all the stuff that we can do out of s-1, and that which we can do out of the john r lewis ought to be put into one piece of legislation, put on the floor, do it the same way we do the budget and the reconciliation or get rid of the filibuster, work around the filibuster. whatever is needed. we democrats have got to pass a voting rights act that will protect the voters and not have these insurrectionists that are taking over governments all over doing things that are necessary that will result in nullifying people's vote. nullification and the position seem to be taking over in too many instances, and joe is not confined to the south. look at what they're doing in pennsylvania. look what they're doing in arizona. these things are festering throughout the country, and they're a great threat to this great democracy, and we ought not allow it to occur. >> yeah. especially when you have republican legislatures kwliek said, jim, across america who are saying we're going to take away the power from lieutenant governors, governors. we're going to take the power away from local voting officials to just decide what votes to throw out. it is absolutely critical. is that something that you all get to at the beginning of the year next year, you think? >> i hope we'll get to it before this year is out. i would hope we don't go into the christmas holidays with people not knowing exactly what's going to happen to them. i want people to be in a real good mood when we get into our holiday spirit. thanksgiving ought to be a period of giving thanks, and christmas and whatever, kwanza and whatever ought to be a time for celebration and good cheer. >> and all the people said, amen. house majority leader jim clyburn, as always, great talking to you. thanks for being with us. the supreme court is poised to take on a variety of issues when their new term begins tomorrow. a look at what's at stake. we're back in two minutes. n two. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ people, with quickbooks live someone else will do your books for you. they'll even pair you with an expert bookkeeper like me, who knows your business. knows... your... business! expert bookkeepers who understand your business. intuit quickbooks live bookkeeping. this is the new world of work. each day looks different than the last. but whatever work becomes... the servicenow platform will make it just, flow. whether it's finding ways to help you serve your customers, orchestrating a safe return to the office... wait. an office? what's an office? or solving a workplace challenge that's yet to come. whatever the new world of work takes your business, the world works with servicenow. 53 past the hour. welcome back. the supreme court begins its new fall term tomorrow with some of our country's most divisive issues including the future of abortions, gun rights and even religion all on the docket. msnbc news correspondent pete williams has the rundown. >> it's likely to be the most important term for abortion rights in decades. a supreme court could abandon abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy. >> to avoid any pain, we ought to protect them from abortion. >> but it's been said that they cannot ban abortion until after 24 weeks. mississippi plans to take a bold step and reverse roe. >> they would want to ban it altogether. the supreme court allowed it to take effect a month ago. they will also decide whether carrying a concealed weapon violates the constitutional right to bear arms. >> does your right to self-protection stop when you leave your home? >> reporter: a case for maine votes on another contentious issue. does using public money allowing children to attend religious schools violate the rules of the state. and there is a factor in college admissions. >> i think we'll look back on this as a year when supreme court and constitutional law got what they were really looking for on the big hot button issues that affect all of americans' lives. >> eugene, a lot of issues. we don't know how the abortion case is going to show up. we certainly know on religious issues there's been a big swing towards going with expanding religious rights. but on that abortion case, the consequences of overturning roe v. wade, which 70% of americans have supported for years, i just got to believe will be huge in the midterm elections. >> it's going to be huge no matter what's happening. democrats have been galvanized about the supreme court more than they ever have before, and getting rid of roe or not, being protected is going to make them go to the polls again. that's something that is clear and continues to be clear, and that's something i'm getting from activists over and over. >> it was hard to find a republican on the national stage saying a lot of great things about what happened in texas because they understand the blowback is going to be huge. >> it would be huge. think about the night that this happened when the supreme court allowed this texas law to come into effect. i got calls from sources in the middle of the night, women angry saying this cannot be the way that this country is going forward. and i think when you look at the things the supreme court is looking at, abortion, affirmative action, guns, these are things that go straight to the heart of how people live their lives, it goes straight to the heart of what kind of country we want to be. this is in some ways a culmination of the conservative efforts really at play for decades here trying to make sure they got control of the state legislature, got control of the supreme court. you hinted at the idea there were not that many conservatives who wanted to go on tv to talk about this abortion law. it shows that even if you get what you want, it can be a little too much, because the party that goes too far is the party that could pay for it. when you think about 2022, 2024, you don't want angry americans in particular going to the ballots and saying, we need to vote these people out. >> thousands of women marched at the capitol on friday to protest abortion laws. founder and ceo of "all in together," lauren leader. what did you find? >> the big question has been weather the bill in texas would be a motivator for voters across the board. we have found definitively it absolutely is. overall there is a big gap in focus for the election next year between republicans and democrats, republicans up about 10 points higher in terms of motivation to vote. but when you look at specifically how the abortion bill affects voters, you see it drives a huge level of enthusiasm among democratic women, and even among younger women voters which has been a big question of whether this would be a galvanizing issue. overall we found if roe v. wade is to be overturned next spring in that supreme court term that it is, in fact, something that will be so vastly motivating to a plurality of voters on the democratic side, it could be enough to make the difference in the midterms next year. it's fascinating. significantly more enthusiasm on the republican side for the midterms overall, but yeah, this abortion issue, even though voters don't necessarily rank it as their top issue for the election, it does count on motivation and commitment to turn out for the midterms, which is everything. >> hard to tell what actually happens at the polls, but something like this, lauren, could even motivate people who might have been a little apathetic to get out and vote? >> that's where this is interesting. young girls overall seem less interested in the midterms until you ask the question about abortion rights, then you see this big surge in commitment to vote, commitment to turn out. that's going to be key. that was absolutely fundamental to the democrats winning in 2020. it made a huge impact in 2018 for the midterms, women, suburban women, younger women turning out. it always makes a difference. but i think joe was right. the farther away from fundamental rights women perceive themselves, the more fired up and motivated they are to get to the polls. that's not going to be great news for the republicans even given the advantages they go into this midterm election with. >> lauren leader, thank you very much for being on this morning. yamiche alcindor as well. fiona hill is best known for sounding the alarm in the political system while under donald trump. she sounds the alarm on public service and much more. that's tomorrow on "morning joe." that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city, so let's get smarter. it is monday, october 4. a new week on capitol hill, but with the same problems and the

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