sending all of those wedding invitations. >> pardon everyone from himself to his administration officials to joe exotic if he has to because you see from the radical left a blood lust that will only be quenched if they come after the people who worked so hard to animate the trump administration with the policies and the vigor and the effectiveness that delivered for the american people. >> yeah. >> so i think the president ought to wield that pardon power effectively and robustly. >> yeah. snl just got more material for this weekend's show. that was republican congressman matt gaetz in november of last year, saying then president trump should pardon just about everyone. well, this morning there's new reporting that gaetz wanted one of those pardons for himself. >> you know, we'll get to that in a second. willie, you know, i'm not prone to overstatement when it comes to sports, but we had another great night in sports last night. and again, not -- i'm not saying that -- >> i hear things went off the rails yesterday, and we're going to try to have a cleaner, tighter shift today. >> don't want to offend anybody. i'm saying some sports writers are comparing the sox comeback last night against the rays to the united states navy's comeback at midway. i'm not drawing those comparisons. i'm just saying it's out there. it's out there, my friend. >> i thought you were going to the miracle on ice, but boy you took it a step further there. this is the comeback. this is the midway of our time right here. as you can see, look at them storming back. april. it's early to mid april. they're going nuts at fenway. >> they're 2-3, willie. >> mika, the yankees had a bunch of strikeouts against the orioles. a lot of people saying move over bob gibson, here is garrett cole. it's all very exciting. >> mets won. >> yeah, exactly. >> the mets won. >> mets won. yankees won. red sox won. willie, i have to tell you, lake placid came to mind. >> you really don't have to tell us. >> i said, how can i take an overstatement and just really devolve it into just pure, sheer, 100% stupidity? and so i went back to midway. i think it works. >> i think it's fair, early april baseball and midway, mika. >> willie me and we have msnbc mike barnicle not participaing in this conversation. >> absolutely. came back three times in the 9th, 11th, bottom of the 12th, boom, midway all over. yamomoto could have seen this game and said, wow, that's a big one. >> i'm afraid we have awaken the sleeping giant who is now 2-3. >> op-ed column next for the new york times, michelle goldberg joins us. >> we're sorry you have to sit through it. >> they're not i am. senior political correspondent for the washington examiner david drucker joins us. we have a lot to get started this morning. >> "the new york times" is reporting that in the final day of the trump presidency republican congressman matt gaetz privately asked the white house for blanket preemptive pardons for himself and unidentified congressional allies. that's according to two people told of the discussions. nbc news has not yet confirmed the reporting. the news comes amid a justice department investigation into sex trafficking allegations against gaetz. the congressman has vehemently denied all allegations. according to the times, it is unclear whether gaetz or the white house knew about the inquiry at the time or who else he sought pardons for. gaetz did not tell white house aides he was under investigation for potential sex trafficking violations when he made the request, the times reported. but top white house lawyers and officials viewed the request for preemptive pardon as a non-starter that would set a bad precedent. a spokesman for gaetz denied that he privately requested a pardon in connection with the justice department investigation. nbc news has reached out to gaetz's office for comment but has yet to hear back. let's bring in one of the reporters on this story. new york times reporter, michael schmidt. he's also msnbc national security analyst. >> so michael, let's put this into perspective. of course, gaetz's office is denying everything. but, the question is, operative question is this, if he's asking for these pardons near the end of trump's term, when did he know that he was in legal jeopardy? when would he have reasonably known that he was in legal jeopardy and might need a pardon? >> let's go through a bit of the timeline of sort of how this evolved last year. in august, a long time associate of his, someone he had known for several years in florida, republican state politics, was indicted on sex trafficking charges. this is someone gaetz had, you know, spent a fair amount of time with, had partied with and had worked alongside. so that was in august. those charges were filed publicly. it was sex trafficking of a minor. by the end of the year -- >> and that person was a tax collector, seminole county tax collector that "the new york times" is reporting had sex with a 17-year-old and reported that gaetz also had sex with that same 17-year-old. so that was in august. so he knew or reasonably would have known that he could be in serious legal problems, have serious legal problems in august of last year? >> and then we get through the election. and in the weeks after the election coming into the end of november and into december, you know, it's our understanding from our reporting that interviews begin by the investigators, by federal investigators into gaetz. they start asking questions of people around gaetz about his connections to this 17-year-old and to other women. and that that message starts to filter out within gaetz's world as the federal authorities are moving forward, as they're accelerating their investigation into gaetz. they're starting to look at evidence. they're starting to interview people. so that's into december and into january of this year. obviously, you know, trump in office until january 20th. so, you know, do we know exactly when matt gaetz found out about this investigation? no, we do not. but those are two really, really important facts about how this investigation evolved and what someone who was being scrutinized would know -- may have known at the time. >> michael, it's been pretty extraordinary how quiet president trump, former president trump has been about all of this in the last couple of weeks. and as you write in your piece, the white house gave gaetz almost instantaneously a stiff arm on this, you call it a non-starter in the piece. why did the white house look at this potential pardon as a non-starter when it obviously was entertaining so many others? >> so what gaetz was asking for was like even more outlandish than a lot of the pardons that trump was considering. everyone who trump pardoned had at least been indicted. most everyone had been convicted of a crime. trump was using his pardon power and commutation power on these individuals. there's a lot of questions how that process went, why certain people got pardons, whether people were treated equally under the law or whether there was preferential treatment to allies and donors and such. but what gaetz was asking for was essentially the ultimate get out of jail free card. he wanted a blanket pardon for everything he may have done essentially in his life up until that point. and what's -- what was notable and different about his case is that he had not been indicted yet. he had not been charged. so in that case, the president truly would have been going -- reaching his hand into an on going justice department investigation and essentially ending it and ceasing it. and look, any type of pardon or commutation is really the president dipping his hand into the justice system to do something. but in the eyes of some, that is an even more extreme use of power because it's an on going investigation that has not come to fruition yet. and gaetz wanted this blanket pardon, this sort of we will wipe everything off of the slate. and in all the pardons that trump did that have come out we have not seen any sort of blanket pardon for anyone where it just sort of said, okay. whatever you did in your life, we're giving you a clean thing. most of the pardons have come with a specific crime that the person was accused of. >> so, first of all, wasn't there reporting that the president was looking into blanket pardons, preemptive pardons for his family at one point. set that question aside, also want you to if you can, give us a sense of the dynamic between trump and barr at the time this ask came through. and also trump, barr and gaetz because feelings had changed, you would think, maybe even on the part of the attorney general by the time the administration was coming to a close. and then also how they felt about matt gaetz. >> so, i think that the justice department is trying to stay as far away from the pardon process as possible. trump's relationship with barr had frayed throughout the end of 2020. and i think it was pretty clear to the justice department there was only is much control that they could have over the president. there had been a long-standing effort dating back from before barr by the john kelly's of the world to try and instill a process on pardons and commutations to ensure that these were things that were not being dolled out as, you know, party favors or gifts or things for donors, that these were also being treated equally under the law. this very important principle of sort of the american justice system. so in the case of trump's relationship with barr by the time you get to the end of 2020 it's pretty frayed and the white house has sort of taken the lead on the pardon process. it's normal for a white house to take the lead on it, but there were really the ones that were going to make these decisions and they weren't going to listen to the justice department on any of it. and that is sort of the tenor of how this pardon and commutations process went forward. now, what we should not forget and i was sort of touching on earlier is that trump's commutation process was really, really unusual and it was really exstream and different than anything that we had seen before. it's important to have that context to know that even a pardon for gaetz was probably too much even for this white house, which really pushed the bounds of pardons in a way we hadn't seen. >> michael schmidt, thank you so much for your reporting. we appreciate you being with us after posting your story late last night. greatly appreciate it. michelle goldberg, this is very interesting the contrast between how republicans have been behaving and circling the wagons over the past four years and what they're doing right now. you have republicans who blindly defended donald trump with porn star payoffs, his putrid performance on helsinki, all of the scandals that dotted the landscape of his administration for four years. and now in this scandal the silence is deafening, not just from the president but also from most of the members of the gop. >> i would say a couple things. first of all, i would be very curious to know the reporting says that matt gaetz sought a pardon for himself and unidentified congressal allies. it would be really interesting to know who those allies were and if they understood that they were part of this request and maybe congress should investigate because it's something of an admission of guilt if you're asking the white house to pardon you for unspecified crimes. but it's also striking to me, you're right, that very few people are defending matt gaetz but there's also not much yet of a drum beat for him to leave, which i think you would see if this was a democratic member of congress. and there's a number of other republicans, you think of the republican who fired a gun or pulled a gun on his ex-wife, pressured a mistress to get an abortion, who prescribed painkillers or prescribed medicine for a patient unethically and basically stuck it out and is still there. right? so matt gaetz can probably see a path forward to just gutting it out precisely because the republican party has been disinclined in many cases to hold its own members accountable. >> if mcconnell and the rest of republicans are ignoring matt gaetz, they're focussed on what's happening in georgia. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell continued his criticism of corporations weighing in on politics in the wake of some companies speaking out against georgia's controversial voting law. >> my warning if you will to corporate america is to stay out of politics. it's not what you're designed for. you know, republicans drink coca-cola, too. and we fly. and we like baseball. if i were running a major corporation, i would stay out of politics. i'm not talking about political contributions. most of them contribute to both sides. they have political action committees. that's fine. it's legal. it's appropriate. i support that. >> so david drucker, obviously corporate money has been the life blood of politics and republican politics for a long time. mitch mcconnell pointing out i'm not talking about money in politics, politics jumping into partisan fights of the day and taking a side on issues that may cost them voters and supporters and customers later. >> right. so it's really one thing to fight about tax policy, regulatory policy, what is happening now and this is somewhat new but it's been a feature of the politics over the last four years are big businesses and corporations, american corporations, iconic brands getting involved in our cultural politics, right? and so much of it especially on the republican side but really writ large so much of our politics are cultural. and i think what mitch mcconnell obviously worries about the alliance between businesses and republican party has been fruitful for both. they share the same tax and regulatory agenda, republicans aren't voting for lower corporate taxes because they're getting donations they're voting for them because they believe in them. corporations believe in them and so therefore they support these republicans that are for the same policies they are for, but what has been going on with the republican party has the populous within it have risen and cultural politics have come to the fore is a split because a lot of these businesses are worried about the health of their brands long term. they have employees to contend with but they also have younger consumers that are coming up with different ideas about how companies should conduct themselves and different ideas about public policy. right now i can't tell to be a little cheeky about this this is neil's "breaking up is hard to do," there's no way to break in because it's too hard to do or judy collins "send in the clowns." i don't think we know yet. there's a difference between republicans and small businesses, entrepreneurs and they still get along very well. but republicans whether they're right or wrong about this, are taking great offense to the idea that they believe they have supported common sense voting measures in various states not with standing the motivations and we know what the motivations are, they don't like the way the 2020 election ended up and they're looking to change things because of that. but they feel like they're being penalized and it's punitive and it's unfair and they're trying to make this a bigger issue in order to push back and regain some leverage. and the question is how are voters going to respond to this both in the states where these battles are playing out and georgia is a swing state. it's not a blue state. it's a battleground. and this could swing either way in a mid term election where you have a democrat in the white house or do you end up with one side or the other coming out on top on an issue like this? i think that's what republicans are watching closely and that's what mcconnell is watching closely, how does he keep an alliance together that's been very helpful to his party? >> michelle the clip we played earlier of mitch mcconnell was actually laugh out loud funny if you think about it because in the early fall and early winter of 2017 mitch mcconnell had dial a ceo in his phone in his office. he was calling every ceo in the country, urging them to get behind the tax bill that they were about to pass in december of 2017. yet now they're trying to mix what happened with major league baseball and other companies with regard to the georgia voting scandal as a cultural issue but voting is not a cultural issue, correct? >> of course not. and look, the idea that republicans think that it's somehow untoward for corporations to get involved in public debate is risible. a huge issue in our politics especially since citizens united has been the conservative contention that corporations should have the same free speech right as individuals. if they want to join democrats in restraining kind of unlimited corporate speech, particularly through campaign spending i think there's plenty of democrats who would welcome that, but what you see here is a conflict between the counterma joer tear yan elements of the senate. senate and particularly republicans in the senate depend on the continuance of minority rule. it's been a long time since they have sought to appeal to the majority of the country, rather they're kind of using both the -- they're using both voter suppression and just the countermajoritarian to make sure minority can remain in power even if majority despises what they're doing. corporations, not so that they're altruistic or left wing, it's just that the republican party can treat young people in urban areas in particular with contempt as people to be -- by definition need those people and need to be responsive to their beliefs. >> mike barnicle, i'm curious what your reaction was to former baseball commissioner writing that the current commissioner made a mistake in removing the all star game from atlanta. major league baseball can't become a weapon in the cultural wars. a hostage for one political party or ideology and can't be only for the rich or poor or nor for one race as it was until 1947. baseball must always stand above politics and its dark elements of corruption, greed and sorted selfishness and it can't go wrong by standing for national greatness. and mr. vincent suggests that mr. manfred may have acted before reading the georgia bill. what's your reaction? >> well, fay vincent is a wonderful guy, a great life, a great career and left major league baseball with some bitterness, he was forced out as commissioner about 20 years ago, maybe a little more than 20 years ago. so you know, he's got some sense of spite towards major league baseball and particularly probably rob manfred a i long with bud selig. but i think he's wrong on this, joe. baseball is now on the right side of history. and baseball knew -- they just knew and they had an executive committee meeting last friday morning and they knew at that executive committee meeting had they not acted and done something there would be several players of great, great celebrity in major league baseball, start with mookie betts, perhaps, who would not play in that all star game, who would not attend the game in atlanta because of the voter suppression activity in the state of georgia led by the georgia state legislature and the governor. so, i think rob manfred is not getting enough credit for the decision he made because he basically made it alone. he works for a bunch of basically republican billionaires, most of them are republicans, most of them are billionaires. there's a few democrats. but he made this decision alone. and it was kind of a courageous decision to put major league baseball finally on the same social slash cultural political level as other sports, specifically the nba. which is always out there in front for major causes in the country. major league baseball has been silent on these causes, kind of conservative on these causes but not anymore. we're going to move to the developments in the murder trial of former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin. prosecutors yesterday continued their argument that chauvin disregarded his training, presented several more witnesses on procedures for restraining suspects and assessing their need for medical care. the day began with morrise hall, appearing remotely on a motion to invoke his fifth amendment right not to testify in the chauvin trial, a ruling is still pending on that. later, minneapolis police lieutenant johnny mercel who taught a use of force training class, attending by chauvin in 2018, told jurors that kneeling on the neck is not a restraint taught to his department's officers. and that the use of force must be the least amount necessary to control the suspect. sergeant yang, the forces crisis intervention coordinator confirmed records that show chauvin completed a 40-hour crisis intervention training program in 2016, designed to enable officers to assess when a suspect is in crisis and needs medical attention. and officer nicole mckenzie, emt and department's medical support coordinator testified officers are required to administer medical aid. but on cross-examination, she pointed to reasons why that might not occur. >> if you're trying to be heads down on a patient that you need to render aid to, it's very difficult to focus on that patient while there's other things around you if you don't feel safe around you. >> does it make it more difficult to assess a patient? >> it does. >> does it make it more likely that you may miss what a patient is experiencing something? >> yes. >> and so the distraction can actually harm the potential care of the patient? >> yes. >> joining us now from minneapolis, nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster. good to see you again this morning. we had another member of the minneapolis police department, this time a use of force instructor saying this is not what we teach the knee on the neck that we saw from former officer chauvin is not part of our instruction. it shouldn't have been used. this falls in a line of members including the police chief who have said that officer chauvin was not using department policy when he put his knee on the neck of george floyd. >> reporter: that's right, willie. you're seeing that laser focus on the policies of the minneapolis police department and specifically the use of force training that derek chauvin received. we heard from the lieutenant who is in charge of use of force training. we heard from a sergeant who talked about that crisis intervention training and we even heard from an officer who trains other officers on cpr and the medical aid required for people in their custody. the key point was and why you didn't hear them give their opinions on derek chauvin specific use of force and specific actions, the key point and the reason why they were called to the stand is because the prosecution is trying to highlight that the use of force we saw from derek chauvin in his interaction with george floyd did not comport with minneapolis police department policies. and the latest person, latest expert that we heard from was a lieutenant from the l.a. police department examines use of force. last thing we are heard from him yesterday he believed this was an excessive use of force. he'll be the first person to take the stand later today. but i'll tell you in some of this conversation we're also getting a sense of the nuance here because, for example, we know neck restraints, that is part of the use of force training. that is taught to officers, but it's taught to be used on people who are not actively resisting. that was not the case in this incident. you also know that the knee on the shoulder blade, for example, sometimes appearing to be on the neck, that is a technique that is taught to officers, but it's not taught and intended to be held there for an extended amount of time. so you're getting the sense that the defense is also able to prove some of its points, talked about the bystanders, for example, and how that can be an impact or hindrance to providing aid to a suspect or to someone in custody. i'll also say as we're watching this testimony, we're seeing a lot of charts. we're seeing a lot of graphs and training material. it almost feels like we're in a training seminar for the minneapolis police department. and it seems like that's having somewhat of an impact on jurors. we got a report that one juror yesterday was sleeping or at least nodding off, a slide was put up and the whole jury looked up except that one juror. there was another report that before the lunch break we saw people yawning. people were looking around the room, getting a little fidgety. we're getting to the part where it's not that compelling testimony we saw last week, that emotional testimony. we're getting into a part where it's getting really dense, really specific materials and very specific policies that the prosecution is laying out in their case against ex-officer derek chauvin. >> again, as you point out, we're hearing members of the minneapolis police department who you might expect to support the former officer, saying very clearly including the police chief, that this was a violation of department policy what we saw from officer chauvin. nbc reporter shaquille brewster. thank you very much. we'll see you soon. mika? still ahead on "morning joe," we're following several developments on the pandemic. president biden speeds up his timeline to get all americans vaccinated as new numbers show almost half of all new infections are clustered in just a handful of states. plus, top doctors disagree over whether we are headed for another wave. also ahead, new polling on the president's infrastructure plan shows there are elements with clear bipartisan support. we'll have new numbers. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪ ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ excuse me 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and killed on the scene after brandishing a weapon. the two victims were air lifted to a trauma center in baltimore. one is in critical condition and the other has been released from the hospital. while the victims and the suspect all worked at ft. dietrich, it's unclear whether they knew each other. willie? nancy pelosi and chuck schumer announced yesterday u.s. capitol police officer william billy evans will lie in honor in the united states capital rotunda. officer evans was an 18-year old veteran of the force who died on friday protecting the capitol when a man rammed his car into a north barricade at the complex. new video of abandoned migrant child underscores the plight of unaccompanied children at the border. last thursday u.s. border arguments found a 10-year-old boy alone in the desert sobbing and pleading for help. here is nbc's andrea mitchell reporting. >> can you help me, he says. i was coming with a group and they abandoned me and i don't know where they are. they left you alone the argument asks? they abandoned me. adding his parents were not with him and he was afraid of being kidnapped. it is just the latest shocking video of unaccompanied migrant children crossing the border. last week surveillance cameras capturing a smuggler tossing 3 and 5-year-old toddler girls over a 14 foot border fence. then running away. >> there currently are nearly 19,000 unaccompanied migrant children in united states custody. many being held by the border patrol in overcrowded detention facilities like this one in donna, texas, mika. joining us now white house editor for politico, sam stein and reporter for the washington post eugene scott. sam, you're looking at some new numbers coming in on the president's infrastructure plan. >> yeah. we have new numbers with morning consult and the plan is quite popular, at least the components of it are. i have the numbers right here. if you look at the specific areas that biden is plugging away at, roads, bridges, et cetera, 86% democratic support, 69% independent support, 71% republican support and get down to other things like improving schools, 87% democratic support, 63 independent support and son. the key here is not necessarily the popularity of the individual provisions as you can see in these numbers. widely popular across the board. what republicans have been focussing on for good reason is how do you pay for the price tag. and that's where the polling gets a little more muddled. it's -- joe biden proposed raising the corporate tax rates. but here too you see wide popularity for that provision. the poll found 64% say corporations pay too little. 8% say they pay too much. when you combine the two, the corporate tax rate to pay for the infrastructure investments you still have a pretty good support for the plan, 65% strongly or somewhat support that pay, 25% oppose that pay for. so if you're joe biden and look at these numbers, we're in pretty good position. now doesn't mean it's a guarantee. you've seen some hesitation among some democrats in the senate about raising the rate up 28%. they want about 25%. but the public is with you on this. the public does believe that corporations need to pay more in taxes or should pay more in taxes. the public believes we need to invest in traditional infrastructure. if you put those two components together you have a popular plan yet again. if you're entering this debate you probably want to be on the side of the 65 to 70% of the american public. >> eugene, it's another biden bill that has overwhelming support. the devils are in the detail as far as funding goes, as far as the national debt goes. but you look at these numbers, you look at the numbers from the covid relief bill and it appears that the vast majority of americans do not care about deficits, do not care about inflation and are just looking at the benefits that are not just coming their way but coming in this case the community's way in terms of an upgraded infrastructure for a country that badly needs its infrastructure updated. >> and i think that speaks to that very point, especially in communities that haven't seen their infrastructure updated in quite some time. there are schools and veteran's hospitals and roads in rural america, in urban america that have not seen significant progress in more than a decade at times and they're certainly looking towards this administration to change that. this is a priority that the trump administration said they wanted to focus on but never got around to for various reasons. it's a reminder of biden's desire to appeal to gop voters more than gop lawmakers as a whole. that's why you're seeing this kind of support from people who are right of him and who maybe didn't vote for him in 2020 but are behind this plan because they know ultimately these policy issues serve them well regardless of the politics of them. >> michelle, i can't remember a time since first arriving in washington in 1994 where one party has chosen to be on the wrong side of a 70/30 issue, 75/25 issue not just once but twice at the beginning of the term, first with covid and now with infrastructure. you know, when i was a freshman, we passed gingrich's contract with america. everybody called it contract on america. this was the worst thing and it was going to throw orphans in jail. it ended up at the end of the day something like 50% of democrats voted for most of those provisions because they were popular. you know, they held their press conferences. then they quietly voted, went back home. here republicans are voting against issues, huge issues. 75% of the american people and a majority of their own party support these plans. >> you know, i don't mean to sound like a broken record, but i really feel like the biggest problem in american politics has been the fact that the republican party no longer seeks, no longer needs to seek a majority of the vote that they have gone all in on this strategy of minority rule. once you go all in on a strategy like that, it doesn't matter if you're on the wrong side of most of the voters, as long as you can kind of rig the election laws and take advantage again if if the countermajoritarian aspects of the constitution. sort of material way, just as the goal of the republican party when barack obama was elected overwhelmingly was to thwart his presidency, to try to make him a one-term president. they have no incentive here to try to either not just help joe biden but help joe biden dig this country out of its crisis. >> yeah. david drucker, we're starting to see a really interesting dynamic take place here, i think, where joe biden seems to me to be a mirror image of ronald reagan. reagan who was seen as temperamentally moderate, you know. everybody's grand dad. people liked reagan. he wasn't threatening. he was always being, you know, accused of being a fascist and accused of being threatening. people see reagan on tv and they go, he's my grand dad. right? and he passed very conservative legislation. it was a conservative revolution and yet, again, remarkably popular, here we have with joe biden a guy who is temperamentally moderate. a guy that republicans and talk radio bashes, suggests that he's just horrible or out of his mind and he's good old joe. but he's passing really progressive legislation here. he's going really big in a way that even larry somers and steve ratner and people who have been lifelong democratic economists or business people are saying, wait, wait, we're spending way more than we need. and yet, the public is supporting these -- this legislation overwhelmingly and again i think so much has to do with joe biden's temperament. he's good old joe and he appears to be beating the republicans everyday on this stuff. they can whine all they want, but my god, it's hard to beat 70, 75% when you're talking about this massive legislation whether it's on covid relief or the transportation bill. >> yeah, joe. it's been interesting to watch because what joe biden i think has done so far that's been strategically very smart is he has stayed focussed in the opening days of his presidency on the things that voters would say is most important to them even as pressure to deal with other pledgeling crises and priorities are looming over him. there are foreign policy issues to deal with regarding china or russia. there's a crisis of a border surge at the mexican border with unaccompanied minor. there's the reopening of schools and dealing with the teacher's unions. and what has joe biden really been focussed on? some of this does get to some of those topics. but what has he kept his eye on and talked about the most. covid relief with his initial $2 trillion package and now what he's calling a jobs package with a lot of popular infrastructure. we just heard the polling numbers from sam. and when you do that, especially combined and i think you're right about this in terms of his moderate temperament so much so that republicans are struggling to turn joe biden into a boogie man. another barack obama, another nancy pelosi and they just can't do it. but joe biden is not making it easy for them because right now he's staying focussed on things voters like the most and think need to be done the most. eventually this will probably come to a head. if he can get around the parts of the bill that are not dealing with infrastructure but are in there then he'll have a very good first six months. one of the things that hurt barack obama, whatever you think about republicans at the time, once he passed his initial stimulus bill that was designed to help the country dig out of the great recession which was a huge priority, he pivoted to healthcare reform. voters at the time they liked the bill now, voters at the time did not think that was a priority and they did not think it should have been dealt with. think think the president at the time should have continued to deal with jobs and economic recovery and i think had he done that he might have come out in a different place in competition with republican opposition. >> all right. david drucker and michelle goldberg, thank you all both so much for being with us. we so appreciate it. and hope to see you again very soon. and mika, you know, i've been saying this for the past, i think, month. and i'll say it again because the republicans keep proving me correct here. i think they're going against barack obama. think think this is 2009. they think they can just say no. and they're doing it now not to the healthcare reform package that was controversial at the time but passed on reconciliation. their doing it with legislation that has the support out of three out of four americans. they did it with covid relief. not a single republican supported -- >> guns. >> that three out of four americans supported. they're also doing it now with an infrastructure plan. can we put sam's numbers up again. you look at these numbers and there's overwhelming support from the american people for this infrastructure plan and republicans again are uing the same strategies they used against barack obama. 71% sport modernizing hois, roads and streets. 64% support improving care giving for old and disabled. 51% want to boost medical manufacturing. 61% support replacing lead water pipes. 78% modernizing veteran's hospitals. those are the republicans, mika. and it is overwhelming support and here you have the republicans again just like they did with covid. all opposing it. bragging that they're all going to oppose it. you know what, after a while, this adds up. they're going to have to come up with a new strategy because the just say no strategy they used against barack obama, the just say no strategy the republican party employed on healthcare over the past seven years not putting forward a single unifying healthcare plan for the republican party, that's not working in 2021. >> no alternatives. >> no alternatives. >> right now they're the no-nothing party. they need to figure out -- i know irritates you when i say this there's always a deal to be made, there's always a way to get from no to yes. they have got to seriously figure out how to get from no to yes. not for joe biden's sake. not for the democratic party's sake. but for their own sake. they're hurting themselves now. they want to keep doing that, it's their business. it's their party. they did turn it over to donald trump for four years afterall. so it's not like they made good choices in the past. but joe biden is lapping them and lapping them everyday. >> without even trying. >> don't believe me. just look at the polls. the numbers don't lie. >> sam, have you ever seen numbers that are unequivocally like this. forget the party of no, they stand for nothing. yet the people in the party seem to be standing for something and they're not listening. >> so we have seen numbers like this and you and i talked about this on several occasions around gun control. almost always universal background check polls in high 70s and low 80s. there's never been action at least in the past couple decades. yes, it is a risk, i think. the difference here is we're talking about bringing home federal money for projects in your district. i think you do run a risk when your counterpart in the senate or the house can point to some sort of bridge or hospital or facility that is being constructed because of a vote that they cast and you're sitting there saying, you know what i'm just a little too worried about corporations paying too much taxes to vote for that. i think that is a risk that you end up running. go ahead, joe. >> no. i was just going to say, sam, of course, what we've seen a lot of republicans already do is vote against the covid relief bill, then get the benefits for their district and then send out press releases saying, oh, hey look what i got for you when they voted against the bill. they're going -- we'll see that left and right during this infrastructure bill. let me tell republicans right now, it doesn't work. because there's a 30-second commercial and they show your no vote. they show you voting against infrastructure. they show you voting against the millions and billions of dollars going into your district. they show you voting against the very thing your constituents want and they don't care about your political gains. they're going to see it in those 30-second ads and see it on online ads. sam, it's those numbers again republicans just like with covid relief aren't going to be able to find a way to get around them. >> yeah. and you know it's interesting because if they're at the table they could affect the bill we know that because joe man chin is at the table and is a critical vote and is affecting the course of the bill. it's interesting to me that the republicans haven't made the conclusion that it's better to move a bill like this in the direction they want than to say up front no we're not going to participate in the negotiation process. to go back to david's point, part of the problem here is republicans are having a lot of difficulty figuring out how to go after joe biden. he is not barack obama. well beyond issues of. barack obama was a historic president it was black and uncomfortable for a fair number of voter. the other thing is you can tell how difficult it is by how they are targeting their resources and push back. they're not pushing back on joe biden. they're pushing back for corporations for meddling in voting issues and restricting what type of books are in their catalogs and corporations who make mr. potato head dolls. politicians. they're corporate america. it's just maybe it will work. there's some democrats who feel like the party needs to take this culture war stuff more seriously but maybe it won't. maybe they will end up looking like they were focussed on side issues when joe biden was rebuilding back the country from the covid pandemic. >> yeah. mr. potato head and dr. seuss's own family, by the way, deciding to no longer publish their own books. probably not going to cut it on election day. as issues matter as much as getting money in people's pockets to get this economy roaring. eugene, i wanted to just circle back to you on something that sam said here and that is that democrats haven't yet figured out or republicans haven't yet figured out a way to nail joe biden. i remember during the campaign calling him teflon joe because none of the attacks from the left seemed to stick and donald trump who could label everybody and get under everybody's skin, he never laid a glove on biden. this is a guy for some reasons republicans just can't demonize. >> there are a couple reasons for that, joe. one is the fact that joe biden is not a rookie. he's a veteran. and many of these republicans are aware of him not just from the obama administration but from his time in the senate. and they're aware of his personal story and his narrative and they're drawn to that and they believe he is a decent man, genuinely invested in passing policy that benefits them. he's not concerned about the culture wars or the politics that dominate conservative media most nights. and he is showing that and proving that and has been able to point to those results. as you noted, voters see that and they appreciate that and they respect that. another thing that is really making it very difficult for these things to stick with joe is that republicans just have a messaging problem. and they are concerned about the conservative media far more than they are concerned about conservative voters. so they listen to those who are bound to attack them and criticize them for taking stands even if that ultimately doesn't help them with the people who sent them to washington. and until they figure out what it is that they are about and what they do best, they're going to have a very difficult time remaining popular and that's why you see these numbers showing how unsupported their ideas are when it comes to these issues that joe biden is trying to move forward. >> okay eugene scott, stick around. tell your mom not to text you for a bit longer because we have more to talk to you about. here is what happened the last time you were on the show. there's your mom. she is all over it. she wants you to be on the show and thinks you're doing great. so, it's a lot of fun to have her watching you. but we have more to talk to eugene about. sam stein, thank you so much. your mom can stop texting you as well. coming up the u.s. and iran -- >> sam's mom texts me, ask my son my questions. >> yeah, right. she's actually quite defensive for sam. >> we love her. >> forgets he's a complete adult as we do. the u.s. and iran coming up begin indirect talks over re-entering the nuclear deal. david ignatius joins us with his new reporting on that. and what's said to be the worsening condition of putin critic alexei navalny amid his hunger strike inside a russian prison. "morning joe" is back in a moment. prison "morningoe j" is back in a moment vo: calling all builde, all welders, and roofers. engineers and electricians. calling all brick masons and boiler makers. steel workers and steam fitters your country is calling you to rebuild america. to create a cleaner, safer, more prosperous future for all. tackling climate change, this is the job of our lifetime. it's time to build back better. let's get to work. nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: try hypnosis... or... quit cold turkey. kidding me?! instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette is the white house concerned that major league baseball is moving their all star game to colorado where voting regulations are very similar to georgia? >> well, let me just refute the first point you made. first, let me say, on colorado, colorado allows you to register on election day. colorado has voting by mail where they send to 100% of people in the state who are eligible applications to vote by mail. 94% of people in colorado voted by mail in the 2020 election. i think it's important to remember the context here of the georgia legislation is built on a lie. there was no widespread fraud in the 2020 election. >> mr. president, do you think the masters golf tournament should be moved out of georgia? >> i think that's up to the masters. look, you know, it's reassuring to see that for-profit operations and businesses are speaking up about how these new jim crow laws are just an thet kal to who we are. there's another side to it, too. the other side to it too is that when they in fact move out of georgia, the people who need the help the most, people who are making hourly wages sometimes get hurt the most. i think it's a very tough decision for a corporation to make or group to make. but i respect them when they make that judgment and i support whatever judgment they make. but it's the best way to deal with this is for georgia and other states to smarten up. stop it. stop it. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 7th. my brother mark's birthday. happy birthday, mr. ambassador. >> happy birthday, mark. >> mike barnicle and eugene scott with us joining the conversation. chief white house correspondent for the new york times peter baker and nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt. and columnist and associate editor for the washington post, david ignatius is with us. >> wilie geist, as far as the masters being moved -- masters ain't moving. >> nope. >> they're staying there. and they don't care whether every sponsor leaves them or not. but, forgive me for being obtuse here, but as you know when we're walking down the streets of new york people go, there goes that dumb country lawyer with a side heaping of obtuseness, talking about me, of course. >> sure. >> which is a strange thing. for new yorkers to say. but they say it any way. >> long winded, yeah. >> if you're against the all star game being played in atlanta, georgia, because of legislation is so racist, then why do you belong to the most exclusive golf club in america and the world in the state of georgia? why is the best -- the most important golf tournament in the world played in the state of georgia? and why do -- why do sponsors and why does the national press and why do democrats apply one standard to the mid summer classic and another standard to the masters and every other sporting event that's going to be held in georgia? >> well, to listen to the president speaking right there is impossible to square his argument. one week ago he was calling for the all star game to be moved out of atlanta and then shortly there after it was. now he's expressing concern about the idea of moving the masters because of the impact it might have on working people in and around the masters. so in other words, there wasn't a lot of concern for the $100 million that experts say will be lost because the all star game leaves atlanta. but now all of a sudden it feels like after a week of criticism some people are catching up and saying, oh, this hurts a bunch of the people that we're trying to protect in this country right now. it's also the position that everyone has put themselves in. we knew immediately wherever the all star game was moved everyone would look clearly at the voting law there and say wait a minute, there are pieces of the voting law in colorado that are worse than the one in georgia. this is a game that probably the white house and maybe major league baseball wishes it hadn't played at some point but here we are. >> mika doesn't it seem that a lot of people jumped the gun, a lot of people moved this all star game, talked about supporting moving of the all star game and, yes, i do believe major league baseball moved the all star game before actually either reading the bill or understanding how the bill lined up with new jersey laws, with new york laws, with laws all across the nation. again, please, please, don't shoot me. i'm only the piano player. but i understand the bad faith that was shown in georgia. i understand the bad faith that was shown by georgia legislatures, but this is going to be hard to unwind. and it's going to be hard to unwind because, again, there is that bad faith there, but when you line this bill up with what the laws were before the pandemic and what the laws are in states like new york, it is not jim crow 2.0. again, the republican legislature acted in bad faith and i'm really concerned as i think most election experts are especially about the provisions where the state can take over local election boards. concerned about all of that. question is, did that warrant such a massive move? or should they listen to stacey abrams and john ossoff who said keep the all star game here please but let's use this as a learning experience and let's use this to draw america's attention to the bad parts of this voting law. >> i think the move by corporate america has done just that. so it's -- there's different ways to look at this, but the bottom line is i think jen psaki put it best, these laws are based on lies. they are created and passed on lies. and it's time we stop, we the collective we the people, stop letting these trumpian acts, these trumpian actions just pass us by doing nothing about them. it's time everybody stops and says, nope, it can't happen. yes, i know there are consequences to actually stopping and taking a stand against something. and i think this is a good of place to start as ever. there are so many things that have happened that we have -- we the people that everybody have just -- with the fire hose of bad acts coming toward the american people out of trump administration, it's hard to keep up. at some point we have to stop and say this is wrong. i say again the collective we. a law based on a lie that restricts voting and, okay, maybe it has been overparalleled with history, that's fine. maybe people are -- but the bottom line is it's a law that restricts voting to african-americans that is based on a lie. fair enough, isn't it? when do we say no? >> i think that may be in my opinion and just my humble dumb country lawyer opinion an oversimplification. the problem is, willie, as president biden pointed out, the people who are harmed here are not us, not comfortable americans in the 1%. it's working-class americans. it's vendors. it's people that work around the stadiums. it's not the ballplayers. it's not the billionaire owners. it's probably not even mlb. that's why stacey abrams -- let me just say, i agree with stacey abrams here. i agree with ralph warknock here. the people that are hurt are the working class people of atlanta, georgia. and that's why major league baseball moved too quickly. they should have listened to stacey abrams. they have have invited stacey abrams in. they should have invited raph warknock in. instead of being swept away by some social media mob. if they talked to stacey abrams, be in a lot better position than they are, willie. >> yeah. let's be clear, this is not a defense of the law in georgia. mika is absolutely right. the entire law is based on a lie that we need to tighten up our elections, elections that court after court after court after election security official and federal election official said was the most secure in the history of our country. so it's a lie that we needed to make our elections tighter and more efficient. the truth is, though, that this is hurting eugene scott. a lot of people as say see abrams said wish we could focus on the legislation and not pull the game out of a town that really needed this money, needed this injection of support for people around atlanta who had been looking forward to this game for some time. we're talking about two things here. a bad law but also perhaps some would say a bad decision by major league baseball. >> we are. and we're also talking about another time where democrats are better at messaging than republicans. that's why you saw joe biden saying ultimately we wouldn't be having this conversation if the law had not passed. that's why you see warnock and abrams coming out first saying don't forget working class georgians because this is not a community, the democratic community, in georgia that's only concerned about black voters. we know that warnock and ossoff won because of a coalition that included working class voters who weren't black that will be hurt by mlb moving the all star game and any other boycotts. and so you hear them elevating other concerns that these voters are considering when they look at how the republicans have behaved and how the major league baseball have acted. and ultimately democrats could benefit from this. >> so, amazon founder and ceo jeff bezos is voicing his support for efforts to build the country's infrastructure, to build it up, even getting behind a corporate tax rate to help pay for it. president biden rolled out a proposal that includes raising the corporate tax rate from 21 to 28%. biden pointedly criticized amazon for how much it pays in federal taxes. in a statement yesterday bezos writes in part, quote, we recognize this investment will require concessions from all sides -- both on the specifics of what's included as well as how it gets paid for. we're supportive of a rise in the corporate tax rate. we look forward to congress and the administration coming together to find the right, balanced solution that maintains or enhances u.s. competitiveness. >> so peter baker, i'm saying this, not you, good for jeff bezos. i'm glad he said that. amazon has been one of the prime examples of the overreach of donald trump and those who supported the trump tax cuts because amazon paid 0 in taxes, corporate income taxes last year. but, my gosh, our article yesterday laid out just how much wealth has been accumulated by the wealthiest corporations and how little taxes they've paid over the past year and even though it's something that we've talked about generally on this show since the trump tax cuts were passed about how the rich got richer and the corporations got a free pass, i didn't realize just how bad it was until i read your piece. can you walk our viewers through some of your findings? >> well, this is findings of a study that i tweeted out. it's remarkable study and does suggest that the corporate tax rate is only part of the issue because you can have a corporate tax rate of 21%, 28%, 35%. but if you have enough, you know, loopholes to get out of it, enough exemptions, enough exits in effect, you still don't have to pay anything. you're right. the studies showed that 55 of america's largest companies which collectively made $40 billion in profits last year paid no taxes. not only did they pay no taxes, collectively we the people of the united states taxpayers gave them back $3 billion in rebates. so we gave them tax money rather than them giving us tax money. and that's not it. that's not all. about 20, 27 i have forgotten the number, about 27 of these large companies including companies like nike, fedex, very big, successful companies haven't paid any taxes, federal income taxes just to be clear since 2017. and so, you know, obviously the system is not working the way a lot of people think it should and obviously even president trump when he came into office said those kinds of examples were wrong and he could do something to fix it and he didn't. now whether president biden will do it or not is part of his look at the tax code. that's a big question. it's not just the tax rate, it's how you get out of paying that tax rate. >> you know, david ignatius, for years people when talking about tax policy and what's wrong with certain countries would always point to greece and the fact that the richest in greece just don't pay their taxes, or at least that's how it used to be. that's what the talk always was. we've gotten to a position here where the richest in america if you look at these corporations, a lot of the wealthiest, multinational corporations based in the united states aren't paying taxes. and nobody is talking about wanting to penalize companies or corporations for creating wealth and creating jobs. but what we've seen because of tax policy over the past 40 years is a massive transfer of wealth from middle class america to the wealthiest americans. from small businesses and mid size businesses to the most massive corporations we've seen a consolidation that in my opinion, as an unapologetic capitalist actually does great harm to american capitalism, has perverted american capitalism and turned it into something that actually causes a great danger to it. alan greenspan said several years ago himself that income disparity and this mass accumulation of wealth at the top is a real threat to capitalism. what do you think? >> i've heard that, joe, from more and more business leaders. there is something that's changed in america, certainly since the '50s and '60s. we were always noted as a country with high tax morality, meaning that people just didn't cheat on their taxes the way they did in france and many european countries. this idea that you should pay your fair share was part of the american way of doing business. that really has been degraded as a standard. and i think part of the anger that surfaced and the populous movements that elected donald trump, that supported bernie sanders was just an anger at the way this economy is working to benefit the rich ever more while middle class, working class stays stagnant. there's a real determination to fix that running through many of the biden policies is the desire to rebuild the middle class, to rebuild not simply the incomes but the values. part of that will be higher taxes on corporations. i think jeff bezos' statement he's prepared to accept that as part of an infrastructure package would be shared by many corporate leaders. i think we are seeing a change in how people look at this. >> kasie, democrats have some work to do here to get this passed, even just on a democratic party line vote if they can use reconciliation they need 50 votes and joe manchin as we reported yesterday has said he's not voting for a raise to 28% corporate tax rate. he would like to see it somewhere at 25%. so how does chuck schumer work with that knowing he's going to need that vote and a couple of others who have been a little shaky on what they've seen so far out of this $2.3 trillion bill? >> well, willie, i think joe manchin is not the only one who's nervous about raising this corporate rate to 28%. he is out front on it, but there are a couple other democrats that the administration is also going to have to work with. i think to get this to where they want it to be. remember the 2% was splitting the difference between where things used to stand and where they fell after republicans were done with their tax reform proposals. the one thing i would add to this and one of the things i was thinking about watching that jeff bezos statement is one thing that's really come out of pandemic is increase in power among america's largest corporations. you've seen small and mid size businesses really, really suffer. and the corporate tax rate is in many ways more important to those smaller and mid size businesses than it is to these big businesses. and that's because of the loopholes that peter baker was talking about. if you're a big corporation with a lot of money coming out of the door you can turn around and invest in the economy and it's set up that way and people who support these policies say, fine, you're building factories we'll give you a break. we'll pay you some money back perhaps. that's how you end up with that 3 billion that went back to that big list of giant corporations. but if you look at that list of people that didn't pay any taxes, they are not small and medium size businesses that are making changes in local communities. they are huge companies, often multinational companies who are taking advantage of these tax laws in a way to make sure that it doesn't matter to them if the corporate tax rate is 21% or 31% because at the end of the day they're not going to be paying anything in this federal tax. so i think that's part of what you're seeing reflected from joe manchin. and it's going to be part of the decision making process that the biden administration is going to have to make. are they actually going to do things that make jeff bezos a little mad at them because amazon is paying more money, or are they going to move forward with something that may hit more small and medium size businesses in places like west virginia, for example. so there's some actual real thorny issues here. >> well and it's so interesting when i first started campaigning for congress in '94 and i was against every tax cut. i was hearing from small business owners, hearing from entrepreneurs, i was hearing from doctors, again from people that maybe had 5, 10, 20 people on the payroll. they just couldn't handle the rise in taxes. of course obviously the tax load in states like new york and new jersey, illinois, california already awful; absolutely awful. but peter baker, i sense that the idea that you can never vote to raise taxes anymore, which was sack row saingt not only among republicans but democrats that seems to be changing. people have noticed the mas accumulation of wealth at the top, noticed that multinational corporations are paying 0% in tax. noticed a massive shift of trillions of dollars of income over the past 40 years from the middle class to the top 1% and even the .1%. and those stories during the pandemic of how the .1%, not the 1%, the .1% accumulated billions and billions of dollars while so many americans were struggling to get through the pandemic, i think that's just one more example how raising taxes on corporations, even raising taxes on the capital gains on capital gains, that's just -- i don't think that's going to be the hot button issue, the third rail of american politics like it has been over the past 40 years. >> yeah. look, polls show obviously there is support for higher taxes on the healthier in this country. no question about it. the problem for biden, though, is that every time democrats propose tax increases, republicans rather skillfully manage to point out or at least take advantage of skepticism that they will stop at the wealthy, right? that people don't want to think that that's going to trail down just from the bezos' of the world to them. and you know, often they can find republican critic can find an example in some large tax bill of some relatively smaller tax that affects people not making $400,000 which is the threshold for families that biden set for any tax increase so americans get skeptical that the tax increases are really just for the wealthy and they'll come for us as well. so that's the messaging trick i think for biden is convincing americans who are skeptical of tax increases that if he does put them through it really will only affect those people who have made the most in these economic times. and i think the republicans are anxious to have a battle on taxes because traditionally it has been a successful area for them. something that motivates their base. something that brings republicans together who have differences over many other things and appeals beyond the ideological core. >> peter baker, thank you very much. by the way, in a few minutes we're going to speak live with the secretary of transportation pete buttigieg. but for now let's turn to the developments in the murder trial of former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin. prosecutors yesterday continued their argument that chauvin disregarded his training, presenting several more witnesses who spoke about procedures for restraining suspects. and how to assess their need for medical care. let's bring in professor in law at georgetown university, paul butler, he is an msnbc legal analyst. paul, what do you make of how the prosecution is building its case so far? >> the prosecutors use police witnesses yesterday to show the juror what good cops look like to convict chauvin of murder, jurors have to find that his conduct crossed the line. so the contrast yesterday was what cops are trained to do and what chauvin actually did. so lieutenant mercer, he testified that officers are instructed to stay away from the neck. jurors know that chauvin went for mr. floyd's neck. police are instructed to start cpr when someone is unresponsive. jurors know that chauvin never administered cpr. mika, not even during the two minutes that mr. floyd didn't have a pulse. >> paul, watching this trial and following the trial, it always appeared to me because a police officer was on the stand and was charged with murder, more or less, various counts, that the defense would probably try to steer it towards a manslaughter conviction, given the evidence against officer chauvin. but the powerful testimony of his peers has me rethinking it. i was wondering what you thought about what their testimony has in terms of an impact of downgrading the charge. >> you know, the few times officers have been charged with murder, it's almost always been because they shot somebody. and that's a split-second decision. but former officer chauvin had nine minutes and 29 seconds. he didn't adapt once officers had mr. floyd in handcuffs, face down on the ground. that's why he's being prosecuted for murder. manslaughter is an accident. it's more negligent conduct. prosecutors hope that the jury will find that mr. chauvin is blameworthy enough that he should go down for murder rather than manslaughter. >> paul, the eyewitness testimony last week was emotional and powerful and now what we have seen over the last several days, as you said, was hi colleagues, including the police chief of minneapolis saying that former officer chauvin violated department policy, saying that clearly and explicitly with his use of force that day when george floyd died. so, what is the defense do with that testimony? where is the defense headed here? >> you know, yesterday the defense had its best day on cross-examination defense attorney does not expect to take down an experienced witness like a police officer. so, the defense used these officers to get chauvin's story in front of the jury, even if chauvin himself never takes the stand. so one officer yesterday said that chauvin had his knee on mr. floyd's shoulder not neck when the paramedics arrived. the defense made a big deal about the crowd size. yesterday one officer testified it's actually harder for officers to focus when there's a lot going on around them. so maybe these statements could steer the jury towards manslaughter rather than murder. but the prosecutor is still presenting an exceptionally strong case. >> yeah. paul butler, thank you very much for joining us this morning with those updates in analysis. all right. indirect nuclear deal talks between the u.s. and iran have kicked off in vienna and both sides have characterized the beginning of the negotiations positively. iran's lead negotiator said discussions on the nuclear deal were on the right track. and state department spokesman ned price said the progress was made calling it, quote, a healthy step forward. >> david ignatius, what are the advantages of the united states re-engaging with iran right now? >> joe, the simplest advantage is that iran would again be constrained by the limits of the nuclear agreement that was negotiated in 2015. there would be better guarantee of inspection of what iran was doing by the iaea which is based in vienna. and iran would be brought into a regime of compliance in which the expectation, the demand of the international community would be that they observe the limits that are set in the agreement. there's some negatives. they would expect and would get relief from sanctions and experience has shown they pump some of that money into support of activities that we and their neighbors find destabilizing in countries like yemen and lebanon and syria. what i'm struck by, joe, is that the biden administration is moving deliberately but relatively carefully towards reconnecting with iran. there were some expectations that they move quickly right away to restore the so-called jcpoa the agreement that barack obama negotiated. they haven't done that. instead, they've gone to indirect talks, europeans were clambering for resumption in this process. so the europeans are in effect brokering contact between us and iran. it's being done step by step. essentially they're looking for a road map for this process of mutual compliance. iran complies with limits on its nuclear program. the u.s. complies with the agreement to lift sanctions. compliance for compliance. and they're working that through carefully. it's not a rush. iran has elections coming up in june. and people in washington, people at the state department are sensitive to that. but i think there's a recognition that we can't shape iran's internal politics certainly in this cycle. so, again, the idea to do flamboyant gestures early on in these talks, which was a temptation perhaps, i think they avoided and i think they're right. >> so david, you originally said during the initial negotiations that this was something along the lines of an existential gamble but you still thought it was probably the most prudent thing to do to enter into this deal. where do you stand all these years later? >> i still think that, joe. i think that the iran nuclear agreement was in the national security interest of the united states and also of israel. and i think president trump made a significant error in leaving the agreement, in allowing the iranians to resume their nuclear program, to evade clear scrutiny of what they were doing. the idea that trump and secretary of state mike pompeo seemed to have is that with maximum pleasure, blow off the deal, leave it, put huge sanctions on, encourage dissent within iran, that somehow you force the ayatollah to capitulate. i was told that trump said to french president macron, give them another year. he'll come around. he'll want to come to the table. he'll want to negotiate with me. trump confidence i can negotiate with anybody. he thought ayatollah in the end would buckle. that was not a smart bet and didn't happen. here we are. the iranian threat continues. it's serious. anybody who doubts it just isn't looking at the facts. and i think the biden administration is trying to move back towards something that has support of our allies, over time will constrain iran. a key thing i just mentioned at the end, beyond the nuclear issue because i don't think iran is going to try to build a bomb any time soon, is iran's regional activity. we have a horrific war in yemen, just devastating to civilians that iran has been backing the houthis. we have a nightmare in lebanon. lebanon is falling apart as a country and iran is backing hezbollah which essentially runs the country. those are issues that i would like to see over time addressed as part of the iran problem for the region. >> david, stay with us. much more to speak with you about. let's bring in now, though, u.s. secretary of transportation, pete buttigieg. mr. secretary, great to have you with us this morning. i want to get into some of the details from the proposed plan from you and the biden administration and take a step back first. anecdotally a lot look at the roads and bridges we drive on, yes, they do look like they need some updating. but now that you had a couple months in your position and sort of assessed the state of the infrastructure of the country and what needs to be done, how dire is the situation in america? >> so the truth is we're in pretty tough shape. the department of transportation does its own assessment on what it takes to get our infrastructure into a state of good repair. and it's suggesting about a trillion dollar backlog just to do the maintenance that is needed let alone preparing for the future. you see the american society of civil engineers put out these report cards and we're getting cs and ds across the different key categories of infrastructure. but the truth is you don't need an elaborate analysis to tell you this because as you said we all know this anecdotally, driving on american roads, hearing about bridges being taken offline or out of shape go to a u.s. airport or go to an airport somewhere else you can see that the u.s. is behind. really across the board whether we're talking about roads and bridges, rail and transit, ports and airports. we know we got a lot of work to do and the american people know it which is probably why the american jobs plan is so resoundingly popular, including remarkable level of support with republicans and independents. >> when you hear the criticism from republicans, mitch mcconnell said there will not be a single republican vote for this plan, it's interesting to hear them start with we agree that we need to invest in infrastructure. we agree that our bridges and roads are crumbling. we agree that we need to turn to green jobs and create those kind of jobs in this country to stay ahead in the world. but, we're not going to vote on it because of a tax hike. so what do you make of the republican criticism of the plan? >> well, i hear two lines of opposition. one of them is the one you're describing. they're saying, hey, these things are all great. we definitely need to do them but we don't like the way you're going to pay for them. my question is, how would you pay for them? what do you think is the right way to pay for these things? you can't get something for nothing. we have to get it done. remember, there's a lot of evidence that the american people support this plan even more when they hear how the president proposes to pay for it because we're talking about corporate tax reform where so many corporations, as you showed earlier this hour, are paying 0. and by the way, we're talking about a level, 28%. we're talking about a level that's lower than corporate taxes have been for most of my life time. so here we are responding to conservative concerns about debts and the deficit, making sure that this bill is fully paid for over 15 years, it's fully paid for. so after 15 years the deficit is going down because of this bill. if they don't like that, how do they suggest we pay for it? then there's this other line of objection that we hear that's, well, these are all good things to do but this piece or that piece we don't agree that that's infrastructure. there's this semantic debate that's opening up. and to me it's a little beside the point. i can't imagine why somebody would say well, yes, i'm for broadband. we should have a rural broadband, but i'm going to vote against it because i don't think it meets the traditional definition of infrastructure. if it's a good policy vote for it and call it whatever you like. >> mr. secretary, kasie hunt is here with a question. kas? >> mr. secretary, good morning. it's good to see you. you just spoke about republicans, so i'm curious where you think things stand with democrats. joe manchin says he doesn't want to raise the corporate rate above 25%. what's your response? >> so, i've got a call into him i want to make sure i understand how he thinks the best way to pay for this would stack up. look, we've got 535 members of the house and senate with a lot of different priorities and ideas and opinions. and one thing about this president is he's the kind of leader who wants to hear what other people think. he's instructed cabinet members like me to go out and talk to senators and house members on both sides of the aisle and we're going to keep doing that. look, there are going to be pressures on all sides. we're hearing some folks say, wait, this is too bold. others saying this doesn't go far enough. that's a natural part of the process. and i think the president has laid out the best way we could do this, but we're absolutely ready to hear other ideas from our party and from across the aisle. >> secretary pete buttigieg, great to see you. thank you for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. and coming up, from morning in america to american carnage. our next guest takes us through the trend lines that paved the way for the trump presidency. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. thank you! hey, hey, no, no limu, no limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ - [announcer] welcome to intelligent indoor grilling with the ninja foodi smart xl grill. just pick your protein, select your doneness, and let the grill monitor your food. it also turns into an air fryer. bring outdoor grilling flavors indoors with the grill that grills for you. i felt awful because of my psoriasis. i was covered from head to toe with it. it really hurt. then i started cosentyx. okay, thanks... that was four years ago. how are you? see me. cosentyx works fast to give you clear skin that can last. real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms, if your inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. serious allergic reactions may occur. i look and feel better. ask your dermatologist if cosentyx could help you move past the pain of psoriasis. keeping your oysters business growing if cosentyx could hhas you swamped. you need to hire. i need indeed indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates from a resume data base claim your seventy-five-dollar credit when you post your first job at indeed.com/promo the doctor for russian opposition leader alexei navalny says she's afraid for his life as his list of health problems grows in prison. russian police arrested the doctor for speaking out yesterday, along with a group of journalists. outside the prison where navalny is being held. on top of back pain and numbness in his legs, navalny is now said to be dealing with a respiratory issue that doctors fear is tuberculosis. he's also been on a hunger strike. two-fold question for you, can the russians allow him to die in custody? is that something they see as a plus? or is there -- does that complicate things? >> mika, that's really the question, isn't it? is alexei navalny more dangerous to president vladimir putin dead or alive? he is deteriorating in prison. imagine what you just said that his doctor was arrested for saying that his condition is deteriorating one week into this hunger strike. and remember, he's in prison after the russians tried to assassinate him last august. he got medical treatment in germany, came back home and they put them in jail. a man of extraordinary courage. he's becoming a russian martyr, like a person who stands for absolute commitment to freedom. and i think if this continues, the course he's on, he's going to get sicker and sicker. and i think it presents putin with an ever greater problem. this is a person who is very popular in russia. don't forget, people came out in 109 cities across russia when he was arrested in january to protest the fact of his arrest. so if his condition worsens and got forbid he should deteriorate radically, there are going to be millions of russians who are angry about it. >> david, in another spot around the globe jordan, an otherwise reliable ally, an otherwise seemingly formidable and stable country being ruled by stable people, but that seems to have exploded in the past couple of weeks. what is going on in jordan? >> mike, it's one of those situations where there's so many different conflicting reports you have to be a little careful. but what we do know is that king abdullah ruled jordan for 22 years since the death of his father king hussain became concerned about the publicity that was being given to king hussein's younger son, the prince, somebody who was initially crowned prince under abdul la and removed in favor of her son in 2004. he's very popular. looks like king hussein, sounds like him, speaks arabic like him and always electrified crowds in jordan. over the weekend, the head of the jordanian military came to the prince's house and basically said, knock it off. stop talking. no more statements. that's it. a sign that the regime was obviously anxious about him. but at the same time a bunch of people were arrested. how those arrests fit with the visit to the prince is one of the puzzles we're still thinking about. my own take, mike, is i've watched leaders the middle east starting with mohammed bin salman, the crown prince of saudi arabia, drive themselves nuts with reports about the social media popularity of people they see as rivals, like my dead colleague jamal khashoggi was murdered because he was getting too popular on social media. jordan which has been a stable country needs to avoid that. the king needs to find peace with his half brother crown prince and have the stability that people traditionally associated with jordan. >> well, we'll stay on all of these stories. david ignatius, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," president biden visited a vaccination clinic yesterday just before urging to speed up eligibility for all adults to be eligible for shots. new data showing where some clusters are at, some are talking about revamping their vaccine strategy. we'll talk about that coming up. vaccine strategy we'll talk about that coming up. nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: try hypnosis... or... quit cold turkey. kidding me?! instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette welcome back to "morning joe." now to a look at united states politics from abroad. joining us now is bbc new york correspondent nick bryant, "the washington post" compares nick to a modern day detocuhville who is writing about america's decline, titled "when america stopped being great." nick, this is a fascinating conversation because there are a lot of people watching who understand the flaws of our country, but still believe its economy and its innovation and its universities and culture are the envy of the world. so where do you see the decline? where did it again and what happened recently that led you to this conclusion? >> it is great to be on. this is not some european hit job to america. this is a love letter to this country, a love letter that becomes a lament. i've got an american daughter. i still cry at the end of hamilton. but it worries me to see this chronic state of disunion. have the united states how become an oxymoron, a misnomer, how this country has become a continent shared by worrying political tribes, how american exceptionalism, which was a positive when i grew up, has become a negative for many people around the world, something we associate with mass shootings. willie, i came to america on the eve of the las vegas olympics. i was 16 years old. i got to witness this extraordinary summertime of american resurgence after vietnam, watergate, the raenan hostage crisis, america got its mojo back with that extraordinary modern day gold rush in los angeles. and later that year, of course, ronald reagan won re-election with the ringing slogan that perfectly captured the optimism of america. it's morning again in america and the book really traces how he went from there to the american carnage of donald trump's dystopian address to the coronavirus outbreak and the culminating moment, the storming of the capitol on january 6th. >> nick, you just polled a lot of time there. was there, do you think, a political moment in the mid 80s when newt gingrich began to emerge as the leader of the republican party in the house and it seems in retrospect that his philosophy was it wasn't enough to defeat your opponent, you had to demonize your opponent and destroy your opponent. and that seemed to have altered the mix of politics somewhat. >> absolutely. the greatest generation fought together on the battlefields of europe and asia had the torch wrenched away from them by the baby boomer generation, whose formative years had been spent in the culture wars of the 1960s. that was such a key moment. and it coincided with the end of the cold war. this the post war years, you had patriotic bipartisanship on so many things. in the 1960s, republicans and democrats came together to pass the great civil rights acts, the '64 civil rights act, the '65 voting rights act. that started to fray. that started to fall ar part. newt beginning rip realized that the republican party was in the minority and it would stay in the minority if bipartisanship continued. it would always reward the party in power. that really was a key master moment in this path towards polarization. >> nick, eugene scott with "the washington post" is here with a question for you. eugene. >> hi, nick. we've seen poston surveys over the past year say that the united states reputation and popularity globally has declined in the past several years. what are some of the little known or underappreciated concepts you've seen abroad of that shift? >> one of the most notable shifts is when you travel to america, it feels like time trials. you come to airports that are decrepid. as i said, american exceptionalism, we all want to emulate america when i was a kid. we saw your country as having the highest standards in the world. but now we see how a broken economy has led to a broken politics. but that bridge was a bypass to so much of the american heartland, so much of the american rust belt. we see this infademic in america, this failure to even agree on basic facts, the results of a clear cut election. and we look at events like january 6th, the storming of the capitol, and they just seem like culminating moments. they shock us, but they don't surprise us any more. and that is tragic in terms of america's reputation. >> totally agree. the book is "when america stopped being great, a history of the present." nick bryant, thank you very much. we appreciate it. and still ahead amid a justice department investigation, we're digging into a "new york times" story about republican congressman matt gaetz reportedly asking for a presidential pardon during donald trump's final days in office. "morning joe" is back in a moment. "morning joe" is back in a moment some say this is my greatest challenge ever. but i've seen centuries of this. with a companion that powers a digital world, traded with a touch. the gold standard, so to speak ;) not everybody wants the same thing. that's why i go with liberty mutual — they customize my car insurance so i only pay for what i need. 'cause i do things a bit differently. wet teddy bears! wet teddy bears here! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ hooh. that spin class was brutal. well you can try the buick's massaging seat. oohh yeah, that's nice. can i use apple carplay to put some music on? sure, it's wireless. pick something we all like. ok. hold on. what's your buick's wi-fi password? buickenvision2021. oh, you should pick something stronger. that's really predictable. that's a really tight spot. don't worry. i used to hate parallel parking. (all together) me too. hey. you really outdid yourself. yes, we did. the all-new buick envision. an suv built around you... all of you. representative matt gaetz, looks like a caricatures artist drawing of me is reportedly under investigation for an alleged sexual relationship with an underage girl because gaetz believes only voters should have to show id. it's being reported that gaetz may have paid for sex with women he met online. that story has since been confirmed by his whole vibe. gaetz then defended himself releasing this very normal statement. see if any of it you sounds suspicious to you. matt gaetz has never paid for sex. matt gaetz has never, ever been on any such websites whatsoever. matt gaetz cherishes the relationships in his past and looks forward to marrying the love of his life. here is my response statement. collin jost does not believe you. collin jost things you have been to all the the websites and collin jost thinks you should hold off on sending out those wedding invites. >> president trump should pardon michael flynn, he should pardon the thanksgiving turkey, he should pardon everything from administrative to joe because you had the blood lust if they come after the people who worked so hard to animate the trump administration with the policies and the vigor and the effectiveness that delivered for the american people. so i think that the president ought to wield that pardon power effectively and robustly. >> yeah. snl just got more material for this weekend's show. that was republican congressman matt gaetz in november of last year saying then president trump should pardon just about everyone. well, this morning, there is new reporting that gaetz wanted one of those pardons for himself. >> you know, we'll get to that in a second. willie, you know, i'm not prone to overstatement when it comes to sports, but we had another great night in sports last time. >> i hear things went off the rails yesterday and we're going to try to have a cleaner, tighter ship today. >> i don't want to offend anybody, but i'm just saying some sports writers are comparing the sox comeback last night against the rays to the united states navy's comeback at midway against imperial japan. i'm not drawing those comparisons. i'm just saying it's out there. it's out there, my friend. >> that was -- i thought you were going to the miracle on ice, but boy, you took it even a step further there. this is the comeback. this is the midway of our time right here as you see this. look at them storming back. it's april, it's early to mid april. they're going nuts at fenway. >> they're 2-3, willie. >> a big outing, mika, last night for the yankees, as well. had a bunch of strikeouts against the orioles. it's all very exciting. >> mets won. >> yeah, exactly. >> the mets won. >> mets won. yankees won, red sox won. but no, willie, i have to tell you, lake placid came to mind. >> you really don't have to tell us. >> and then i said how can i take after overstatement and really devolve it into pure, sheer, 100% stupidity. so i went back to midway. i think it works. >> along with joe -- >> early april baseball and midway, mika, yes. >> willie and me, we have msnbc contributor mike barnacle who is not participating in this conversation, mike. >> mike, would you agree with me? >> absolutely. came back three times. >> ahh. >> in the 9th, the 11th and bottom of the 12th, yamamoto could have seen this game and said, wow, that's a big one. >> i am afraid we've awakened a sleeping giant who is now 2-3. >> op-ed columnist for the "new york times," michelle goldberg joins us and -- >> michelle, we're very sorry about this. we apologize. >> i am sorry. they're not, i am. >> and senior political correspondent for the "washington examiner" david drucker joins us this morning, as well. >> we did go about 10 minutes on sports yesterday. >> i know. so i want to make up with it now and get right to the news. the in, times is reporting in the final day of the trump presidency, republican congressman matt gaetz privately asked the white house for blanket preemptive pardons for himself and unidentified congressional allies. that's according to two people told of the discusses. nbc news has not yet confirmed the reporting. the news comes amid a justice department investigation into sex trafficking allegations against gaetz. the congressman has vehemently denied all allegations. according to the times, it is unclear whether gaetz or the white house knew about the inquiry at the time or who else he sought pardons for. gaetz did not tell white house aides that he was under investigation for potential sex trafficking violations when he made the request, the times reported. but top white house lawyers and officials viewed the request for preemptive pardon as a nonstarter that would set a bad precedent. a spokesman for gaetz denied that he privately requested a public in connection with the public investigation. nbc news has reached out to gaetz's office for comment but has not heard back. let's bring in msnbc correspondent michael schmidt. >> let's put this into perspective. gaetz office is denying everything. but if he's asking for these pardons near the end of trump's term, when did he know that he was in legal jeopardy? when would he have reasonably known that he was in legal jeopardy and might need a pardon? >> let's go through a bit of a timeline of how this evolved last year. in august, a long time associate of his, someone he had known for several years in florida, republican state politics was indicted on sex trafficking charges. this is someone gaetz had, you know, spent a fair amount of time with, had partied with, and had worked alongside. so that was in august. those -- the charges were filed publicly, it was sex trafficking of a minor. by the end of the year -- >> and that person was a tax collector, a seminole county tax collector that the "new york times" is reporting had sex with a 17-year-old and reported that gaetz also had had sex with that same 17-year-old and so that was in august. so he knew or would reasonably have known that he could be in serious legal problems, have serious legal problems in august of last year. >> and then we get through the election. and in the weeks after the election, coming into the end of november and into december, you know, it's our understanding from our reporting that interviews begin by the investigators, by federal investigators into gaetz. and they start asking questions of people around gaetz about his connections to this 17-year-old and to other women. and that that message starts to filter out within gaetz's world as the federal authorities are moving forward, as they're accelerating their investigation into gaetz. they're start to go look at evidence, they're starting to interview people. so that is into december and into january of this year. obviously, you know, trump in office until january 20th. so, you know, do we know exactly when matt gaetz found out about this investigation? no, we do not. but we -- those are two really, really important facts about how this investigation evolved and what someone who was being scrutinized would know -- would, you know, may have known at the time. >> michael, it's been pretty extraordinary how quiet president trump -- former president trump has been about all of this in the last couple of weeks. and as you write in your piece, the white house gave gaetz almost instantaneously a stiff arm on this. you can call it a nonstarter in the piece. why did the white house look at this potential pardon as a nonstarter when it obviously was entertaining so many others? >> so what gaetz was asking for was, like, even more outlandish than a lot of the pardons that trump was considering. everyone who trump pardoned had at least been indicted. most everyone had been convicted on of a crime and trump was using his pardon power on these individuals. there's a lot of questions about how that process went, why certainly people got pardons, whether people were treated equally under the law or whether, you know, there was preferential treatment to allies and donors and such. but what gaetz was asking for was essentially the ultimate get out of jail free card. he wanted a blanket part for everything he may have done essentially in his life up until that point. and what was notable and different about his case is that he had not been indicted yet. he had not been charged. so in that case, the president truly would have been going -- reaching his hand into an ongoing justice department investigate and essentially ending it and ceasing it. and, look, any type of pardon or commutation is really the president dipping his hand into the justice system to do something. but in the eyes of some, that is an even more extreme use of power because it's an ongoing investigation of power that has not come to fruition yet. and gaetz wanted this blanket pardon, this sort of we will wipe everything off of this slate. and in all the pardons that trump did that have come out, we have not seen any sort of blanket pardon for anyone where it just sort of said, okay, whatever you did in your life, we're giving you a clean thing. most of the pardons have come with a specific crime that the person was accused of. >> michael schmidt, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead, senator mitch mcconnell warns corporate american to stay out of politics, except, of course, when they're donating to him. the latest on that next on "morning joe." test on that nextn "morning joe." ♪ na na na na ♪ na na na na... ♪ hey hey hey. ♪ goodbye. ♪ na na na na... ♪ hey hey hey. ♪ goodbye. ♪ na na na na ♪ na na na na... the world's first six-function multipro tailgate. available on the gmc sierra. how great is it that we get to tell everybody how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance the world's first six-function multipro tailgate. so you only pay for what you need? 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introducing self protection from xfinity. designed to put you in control. with real-time notifications and a week of uninterrupted recording. all powered by reliable, secure wifi from xfinity. gotta respect his determination. it's easy and affordable to get started. get self protection for $10 a month. senator majority leader mitch mcconnell continued his criticism of corporations weighing in on politics in the wake of georgia's controversial voting law. >> my warning, if you will, to corporate america is to stay out of politics. it's not what you were designed for. you know, republicans drank coca-cola, too. and we fly. and we all like baseball. if i were run ago major corporation, i'd stay out of politics. i'm not talking about political contributions. most of them contribute to both sides. they have political action committees, that's fine. it's legal. it's appropriate. i support that. >> so david drucker, obviously, corporate money has been the lifeblood of politics and republican politics for a long time. mitch mcconnell pointing out specifically, i'm not talking about money in politics. i'm talking about politics jumping into partisan fights of the day and taking a side on issues that may cost them voters, supporters and customers later. >> right. so, willie, it's one thing to fight about tax policy, regulatory policy. what is happening now -- and this is somewhat new, but it's been a feature of the politics over the last four years are big businesses and corporations, american corporations, iconic brands getting involved in our cultural politics, right? and so many, especially on the republican side, but really so much of our politics are cultural. and i think what, you know, mitch mcconnell obviously worries about is the alliance between businesses and republican party has been fruitful for both. they share the same tax and regulatory agenda. republicans aren't voting for lower corporate taxes because they're getting donations. they're voting for them because they believe in them, corporations believe in them and, therefore, they support these republicans that are for the same policies they are for. but what has been going on with the republican party as the populous within it have risen and cultural politics v has come to the fore is a split. a lot of these businesses are worried about the health of their brands long-term. they have employees to contend with, but they have younger consumers coming up with different ideas about how companies should conduct themselves and different ideas about public policy. and right now, i can't tell, to be cheeky about it, if this is neal sadacca's "breaking up is hard to do" which is upbeat saying look, there is no way we're breaking up because we need each other too much or if this is a version of "send in the clowns" where it's over and we don't know it yet. there is a group of republicans and small businesses that get along very well. but republicans, whether they're right or wrong about this, are taking great offense to the idea that they believe they have supported some common sense voting measures in various states notwithstanding the motivations and we know what the motivations are. they don't like the way the 2020 election ended up and they're looking to change things because of that, but they feel like they're being penalized and that it's punitive and it's unfair and they're trying to make this a bigger issue in order to push back and regain some leverage. and the question is how are voters going to respond to this, both in the states where these battles are playing out and georgia is a swing state. it's not a blue state. it's a battleground. and this could swing either way in a midterm election where you have a democrat in the white house or do you end up with one side or the other coming out on top on an issue like this and i think that's what republicans are watching closely. and that's what mcconnell is watching closely is how does he keep an alliance together that has been very helpful to his party. coming up, the headline from the ap, minneapolis officers line up to reject derek chauvin's actions. we'll bring you the very latest developments from that murder trial next on "morning joe." tha trial next on "morning joe." 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introducing self protection from xfinity. designed to put you in control. with real-time notifications and a week of uninterrupted recording. all powered by reliable, secure wifi from xfinity. gotta respect his determination. it's easy and affordable to get started. get self protection for $10 a month. we're going to move to the development of the trial of former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin. prosecutors continued their argument that chauvin disregard dollars his training, disregarded several more procedures on restraining suspects is examine assessing their need for medical care. the day began with maurice hall, the man in the passenger side of the car when floyd was arrested appearing remotely on a motion to invoke his fifth amendment right not to testify in the chauvin trial, a ruling is still pending on that. later, minneapolis police lieutenant johnny mercil who taught a use of force training class attended by chauvin in 2018 told jurors that kneeling on the neck is not a restraint taught to his department's officers and that the use of force must be the least amount of necessary -- amount necessary to control the suspect. sergeant ker yang, the crisis intervention coordinator confirmed that chauvin completed a 24-hour crisis intervention program in 2016 designed to enable officers to assess when a suspect ask in crisis and needs medical attention. and officer nicole mackenzy, an emt and the department's medical support coordinator testified officers are required to administer medical aid. but on cross-examination, she pointed to reasons why that might not occur. >> if you're, you know, trying to be heads down on a patient that you need to, you know, render aid to it's very difficult to focus on that patient while there's other things around you. if you don't feel safe around you. >> does it make it more difficult to assess a patient? >> it does. >> does it make it more likely that you may miss signs that a patient is experiencing something? >> yes. >> and so the distraction can actually harm the potential care of the patient? >> yes. >> joining us now from minneapolis, nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster. good to see you this morning. we had yesterday another member of the minneapolis police department, this time a use of force instructor saying, this is not what we teach. the knee on the neck that we saw from former officer chauvin is not part of our instruction. it shouldn't have been used. this now falls in a line of members including the police chief who have said that officer chauvin was not using department policy when he put his knee on the neck of george floyd. >> that's right, willie. you're seeing that laser focus on the policies of the minneapolis police department and specifically the use of force training that derek chauvin received. we heard from the lieutenant in charge of use of force training, we heard from a sergeant who talked about that crisis on intervention training and we heard from officers who train other officers on cpr and rendering medical aid on those in their custody. the key point and the reason why they were called to the stand was the prosecution is trying to highlight that the use of force we saw from derek chauvin and his interaction with george floyd did not comport with minneapolis police department policies. and the latest person, the latest experience that we heard from was a lieutenant from the l.a. police department who examines use of force. the last thing we heard from him yesterday, he said that he believed after reviewing this case, this was an excessive use of force. he will be the first person to take the stand later today. but i'll tell you, in some of this conversation, we're getting a sense of the nuance here. for example, we know neck restraints is part of the use of force training. that is taught to officers. but it's taught to be used on people who are not actively resisting. and that was not the case in this incident. you also know that the knee on the shoulder blade, for example, sometimes appearing to be on the neck, that is a technique that is taught to officers, but it's not taught and intended to be held there for an extended amount of time. you're getting the sense that the defense is able to prove some of its points, talked about the bystanders and how that can be an impact or a hindrance to providing aid to someone in custody. we're seeing a lot of charts, a lot of graphs and training material. it almost feels like we're in a training seminar for the minneapolis police department and it seems like that's something somewhat of an impact on jurors. we got a report that one juror yesterday was sleeping or at least nodding off, a slide was put up and the whole jury looked up except that one juror. there was another report that before the lunch break, we saw people yawning, people were looking around the room, getting fidgety. it's not that compelling testimony that we saw last week, that emotional testimony. we're getting into a part where it's dense, really specific materials and very specific policies that the prosecution is laying out in their case against ex officer derek chauvin. >> and, again, as you pointed out, wear hearing members of the minneapolis police department who you might expect to support the former officer saying very clearly, including the police chief, that this was a violation of department policy, what we saw from officer chauvin. shaquille brewster in minneapolis for us this morning, thanks so much. great job. coming up, wired and tired, our next guest says it's time to recover our mental health after months of covid-19 distress. dr. lucy mcbride explains how, next on "morning joe." cbride ex, next on "morning joe." the lexus es, now available with all-wheel drive. this rain is bananas. lease the 2021 es 250 all-wheel drive for $339 a month for 39 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. [sfx: psst psst] all-wheel drive for $339 a month for 39 months. allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! all good new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a short list of quality candidates from our resume database. claim your seventy five dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed.com/home. when it comes to autism, finding the right words can be tough. finding understanding doesn't have to be. we can create a kinder, more inclusive world for the millions of people on the autism spectrum. go to autismspeaks.org. my name is austin james. as a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. that's why i use the freestyle libre 14 day system. with a painless, onesecond scan i can check my glucose without fingersticks. now i'm managing my diabetes better and i've lowered my a1c from 8.2 to 6.7. you can do it without fingersticks, too. ask your doctor for a prescription for the freestyle libre 14 day system. and visit freestyle libre.us to try it for free. as we continue to return to classrooms... parents like me want to make sure we're doing it safely. especially in the underserved communities hardest hit by covid. trust me, no one wants to get back to classroom learning more than teachers like me. using common sense safety measures like masks, physical distancing, and proper ventilation. safety is why we're prioritizing vaccinations for educators. because together, we all have a responsibility to do our part. and together, we will get through this, safely. mike barnacle, two of your 700 or so sons, collin and nick, are out with a new documentary on netflix chronicling the world's biggest art heist. it's called this is a robbery. let's take a look. ♪♪ >> anybody who was a thief, and not thief, knew about the gone. you had to. i've talked with guys you and said, i scoped that place out. i'm not going to tell you who, but i've scoped that place out. >> it was an easy, easy score, as they say in the street. >> we now know that a lot of vocal wise guys were scoping out the museum. they were casing it. but at that time, the focus was on all these other events. >> put it this way, back in 1990s, you're an fbi agent, the way you get a promotion, the way you get a raise, through a big mafia case. the culture hadn't changed. that was still how you got your name in the papers, still how you got your people on the news. solving an art theft versus a mafia prosecution in 1990 -- what do you think is going to get more attention? >> wow. >> mike, we've been lucky to see a little bit of this. it's a four-part series, start streaming today on netflix. it's going to be netflix's next big thing. it has everything, an unsolved crime from 30 years ago, all those great post characters and it has the great nick and collin working on it. >> absolutely. >> how much of it have you seen, mike? and is it as good as it seems to be? >> i have seen all of it and i have been stunned to realize at this late stage in my life that my children have much more disciplined and repertoiral skills than i ever had. it's an incredible piece of work, a four-part documentary. $500 million worth of art stolen in one night, 31 years ago. none of the art has surfaced. but the film is filled with characters upon character upon character. i mean, funny characters, sad characters, criminal characters, and it's a great piece of work. i'm obviously very proud of them. >> i love it. they did a great job. look forward to it. everybody should watch it. let's turn now to the latest on the coronavirus. new numbers show almost half the new covid-19 cases in the u.s. are coming from just five states. new york, michigan, florida, pennsylvania, and new jersey. made up for 44% of new cases in the past week. according to johns hopkins university. to combat the rising infections, some leaders in these hot spots are asking president abide ton change the vaccination rollout strategy, giving priority to struggling states. the white house, though, has shown no signs of shifting its current policy of dividing vaccines to states based on population. willie. >> meanwhile, we're getting mixed messaging about from top health officials about whether there may be a fourth wave of coronavirus infections in the united states. this is what dr. rochell lewinski said last week. >> i'm calling on every single one of you to sound the alarm, to carry these messages into your community and your spheres of influence. we do not have the luxury of inaction for the health of our country we must work together now to prevent a fourth surge. >> i would explain the up surges that we've seen the way i explained it, that this is a combination of the factors that i laid out, the variance, the seasonal fact, the schools reopening, people moving around more. i don't think this will be the start of a true fourth wave. i think this will be regional outbreaks and hopefully we get beyond this as we vaccinate more. >> joining us now, dr. dave campbell. and practicing internist, health care and mental health advocate dr. lucy mcbride who has a new piece in usa today entitled wired and tired after months of covid-19 distress. it's time to recover our mental health. and i would agree that everybody is suffering and i'm seeing among our young people a real change in behavior, much more fear, much more anxiety. i want to talk about that in just a moment. but first, dr. dave, these conflicting messages, part of the anxiety, quite frankly, that people are feeling. how do we pore through what we've heard coming from the highest office? >> mika, it's at times helpful to have some anxiety when the stakes are so high. what we heard from those two experts are both true. the concern for a surge is real. we see the numbers going up so it depends on how you define it. but the numbers are going up more in young people than in old people. and the old people have been largely vaccinated. and we also see these regional hot spots where different regions, even within different states, are showing more development of positive cases. so we have to recognize that both are true. both need to be prevented. >> yeah. i mean, lucy mcbride, we'll get to your article, but it could be true that we're headed for a fourth wave, but it could be true that we're not. so -- >> that's right. >> what should the message be, though, in terms of how we move forward? >> thanks, mika, and thanks for having me this morning. the message should be this. we have every reason to be hopeful. we have three stunningly effective vaccines that essentially take death and severe disease off the table, that reduce dramatically your risk of getting covid-19 in the first place and of transmitting the virus to other people. they are powerful weapons against the variants. but we can have hope and caution in the same sentence. we can be hopeful and know that we have the ticket to our future in the form of vaccines. we can also be cautious. we know why cases are increasing. it's not mysterious. they are increasing because of the variants and because people are not -- either because they can't distance, they can't separate from family and in crowded living conditions or they aren't using the very well established risk mitigation elements masking distancing and ventilation. but we can be hopeful and optimistic and cautious in the same breath. >> so, dr. mcbride, obviously, we've been focused with good reason on stopping this virus and developing the vaccines and getting everybody physically healthy, but you're writing this morning about mental health, something that's always been there that has accompanying this crisis, but it sounds like you're seeing a lot more of, in your office, in fact, you write that our emotions are making us sick. what do you mean by that? >> what i mean by this is that we all have mental health, right? it's part of the human condition. it's part of the package of being human. so if you have not recognized that you have mental health before the pandemic, you might not notice it now. what i'm seeing in my office every day, people are stressed, they are anxious. all of us are experiencing some version of loss in the pandemic. whether you've lost your job, you've lost a loved one, you've lost your experience in the classroom. we've all experienced some sort of that loss and that avks us mentally and physically. so i'm seeing in my office the physical manifestations of people in distress, sleeplessness, heart palpitations, blood pressure surging, people are not feeling well. and so on the eve of recovery, we need to put our mental health and physical health together and dig out with mental and physical health tied together. >> dave, what more needs to be done in terms of coping with the anti-vaxers and people who live with the fear of getting the vaccine, even though they know the vaccine might be extraordinarily helpful, they're still afraid or reluctant to get it? >> that is a tough one. what you're asking to do is to change culture and behaviors of people who, quite frankly, aren't listening to you right now or probably won't go to the doctor or if they do, perhaps not listen to them and listen to their neighbors and their friends, all of whom are looking at the same information. so we have this conflicting bit of information whereby this weekend, half of the adults in the country will have some form of immunity. and the other half, though, won't. so as we are racing against -- as dr. mcbride pointed out, the variants, the seasons, the behavioral changes, what you're asking is how do we get other people that are thinking differently about the safety or effectiveness or even the insult to their independence to have a vaccination. and it is simply small steps at a time with public health officials, with doctors in their hometowns, with friends and families always encouraging their friends, their family members who are hesitant, mike, to get the vaccine because it will help them avoid disease and it will help them avoid transmitting it to others. and, mike, especially the young people, because that's where we're seeing these surges in hot spots and it is in the younger population. the older folks, all of us, the majority have already been vaccinated or are otherwise immune, mike. >> so another big piece of recovery is getting employees back to the office. nbc news correspondent joe lincoln answers questions about what a post pandemic workplace might look like. >> pass companies plan to bring employees back to the office, the reality of returning is setting in. companies plan to b employees back to the office, the reality of returning is setting in.as companies plan to employees back to the office, the reality of returning is setting in. >> if my company forces me to go back, i'm going to try to look for another job. >> how are you going to keep it safe? >> have people been vaccinated? >> can an employer require you to come back to work if you're getting the job done just fine as home? >> there's no reason an employer can't require employees to come back to work if they think that would be most effective even for employees who have been working effectively and efficiently. >> what about vaccines? three have been authorized by the fda for emergency use. and full approvals are expected. but can private companies mandate them? >> the law does permit an employer to require employees receive even a vaccine that only has an eua, whether fully approved or not, you have to make accommodations for people with religious believes or disabilities. >> as air comes into the building, it kills all airborne pathogens and brings fresher air into the building. >> at rios, a design firm in los angeles, they're installing massive fans, spacing out desks and opening garage doors. >> what was your number one priority? >> our primary priority was to really find a genuine way to do it for ourselves. safety as a baseline. but then we started to implement bigger ideas of really understanding what to do in the office when you're coming in two days a week. what were we prioritizing in our work process? >> one popular new strategy for employers, no more personal desks. instead, reserve an empty desk ahead of time on an app. >> your first stop at the office is a locker where you pick up your own keyboard and mouse. then you head to the already sanitized desk and get to work. >> and these changes will last far beyond the pandemic. >> it definitely was a long-term investment. for us dwb we wanted to embrace the future of redefining what work could be. >> wow. our thanks to nbc's joleen kent for that report. there are so many anxieties facing young, youngish people, whether they're working, they're in school, or they're in their 30s or 40s. this anxiety also revolves around whether or not they will have a job, what their job will look like. anxiety all around where they least expected it. >> that's right. i mean, anxiety is part of the way we run from danger. we're naturally wired for survival, right? so it's normal to have some degree of anxiety in a global pandemic. the challenge i'm seeing now in patients and i think all of us can relate to this in some way is that we're being asked now to pivot from a fear-based way of thinking into real life where we have the threat of coronavirus that's not going away, but we also have the clear evidence that these vaccines work. so what i'm telling my patients is this. your metal health works. it applies to your physical health. take your emotional life with you to the doctor, address it in parallel with your physical issues. let's get healthy from the ground up with science under our feet and doctors at our back. >> all right. dr. lucy mcbride, once again, thank you so much for being on this morning. dr. dave, we'll be reading lucy's new piece he in "usa today." dr. dave campbell, as always, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. up next, a discussion about equity in the workplace, especially when it comes to women of color. keep it right here on "morning joe." keep it right here on "morning joe. hey lily, i need a new wireless plan for my business, but all my employees need something different. oh, we can help with that. okay, imagine this... your mover, rob, he's on the scene and needs a plan with a mobile hotspot. we cut to downtown, your sales rep lisa has to send some files, asap! so basically i can pick the right plan for each employee... yeah i should've just led with that... with at&t business... you can pick the best plan for each employee and only pay for the features they need. with a word about yesterday's tragic shooting in parkland, charleston, orlando. i will keep the victims and their families in our prayers. - [shelby] my thoughts and prayers will go out to all of the victims. - [blackburn] my heart and my thoughts, my prayers. - and our prayers should be- - i stand for freedom- - protect the second amendment- (overlapping cacophony of speec) state and local government positions account for about 13% of the nation's jobs and the sector has historically been more welcoming for women and african-americans, but "the new york times" reported last month that a study from governmentjobs.com, a recruiting site for public sector jobs found that among candidates deemed qualified for a job in the city, county or state government, black women were 58% less likely to be hired than white men. the study analyzed more than 16 million applicants by race, ethnicity and gender in 2018 and 2019 even before the pandemic took its toll on working women of color in all sectors. joining us now, minda harts, author of the book "the memo" what women of color need to know to secure a seat at the table. also with us, columbia university law professor alexandra carter, she's the author of "ask for more" and former north america ceo of focus brands kat cole joins us again. linda, in your book you write this. the current system is broken and it will take all hands on deck to re-assemble a table that did not originally have a seat for us, but the good news is this is a story told by us time to secure our seat at the table and give everybody the memo. let's go. so what's in this memo and what do you think is behind the really big numbers, the disparity that we're seeing? >> mika, it's great to see you, and what i hope happens is that corporate america gets the memo, that we have to finally look at intersectionality when it comes to gender in the workplace. it's not enough to say we're advancing women, but what women are being advanced. when i broke the memo, 70% felt that their managers weren't invested in their success and i believe that's a direct cor lagdz between the lack of advancement and retainment between black women and the workplace, and i think it starts with our managers, mika. >> so kat and then alex. you pointed out that shift to a remote environment has made it harder for women of color. so let's look at this problem right at this moment. why is that the case? >> yeah, to minda's point, it's already an environment in leadership need to level up to really connect with all people in their workplace, certainly women and especially women of color given these dynamics at play. add on remote work where a manager who might have previously been magnetic or warm in the workplace and connecting and people are now remote, and i heard through 2020 from our diverse employees and particularly from our women of color. i feel invisible. the word invisible came up repeatedly. i don't feel seen or connected and the lack of those intimate relationships, the awareness and the discussion about their progress, mentorship, programs for advancement and then seeing people like them in key positions who really do understand their lived experience led to them feeling invisible and as this great reshuffling is going on in the workplace as everyone is busy on linkedin and the muse looking for their jobs, those women, those powerful black women that companies and other women of color, that companies want to see retained are looking for organizations that are going to value them. >> so alex carter, as the author of "ask for more," i'm not surprised that you say the answer to this to an extent when it comes to achieving equity for women of color is that companies need to ask more questions. what are the questions? >> yeah, mika. thank you for having me. so not just more questions, but better questions, both of themselves and their employees. for example, instead of just wondering why did this woman of color not get promoted? zoom out and ask the bigger question. what is our promotion system? what are we doing to retain and nurture top talent of color? and the same goes for when we're having those individual conversations. you know, mika, last year after george floyd was murdered i reached out to my graduates of color to ask them what their managers were doing to support them. one woman of color told me her manager emailed and asked are you okay? that's a closed question and she felt compelled to say thank you, i'm fine. second woman told me her senior manager called her and said tell us what we can do to support you better? that question opened up a conversation. so the questions we ask shape the conversations we have and the change we can make. and, mika, to intersection -- >> go ahead. go ahead. >> to intersectionality and male leaders who aren't sure where to start. they'll ask one person in their company, one person of color. what can we do for -- for them or everyone or one woman. what can we do for the women and the answer is ask them. ask them as individuals. there's too broad a scope of variety of lived experiences to get a gauge of what they need by talking to a few people you happen to be close with in the workplace. >> asking the right question is so important, but minda, would you agree that women or more so, minority women still feel uncomfortable asking? they feel uncomfortable answering because they don't want to present themselves as problematic. how do you bridge that if you agree with that? >> yes, mika. i absolutely agree with that. i think we have to look hard at the psychological safety that companies are providing for black and brown women or not because even if you ask me how i'm feeling doesn't mean i feel comfortable or safe enough to be honest with you and i think we have to create the safe spaces and our managers and leaders have to create relationships with black and brown women so they feel comfortable to be able to tell the truth and speak our truth. i think we have to drill down deeper to say what does good look like? and good looks like, first, setting representation targets for black women in the workplace so that we actually have some data that we can say, hey, look at how you're doing this well or not doing it at all and then reward and share success. i think it's important for companies to talk about and be transparent with their numbers as it relates to black and brown women in the workplace because it's the intentionality for me, mika. >> i'm writing a question. taking alex's question and adding something to it that will help. so if you have strong, female talent and you want that talent to grow in your company, absolutely. what can we do to make it easier for you to do your job, but maybe start that off with, we're really pleased with how things are going. that opens the door for a little comfort and what can we do to make it easier for you to do your job. those questions engender confidence, which i think, minda, i'll let you have the last word is another area where men and women differ in the workplace in terms of confidence. >> i agree with that and also, too, when we talk about representation it's hard to be confident when you see that your company says diversity matters and you never see yourself in the about page or senior leadership. black and brown women are doing everything that we can do, but success is not a solo sport. we need our leaders to step up now. >> okay. and as we've been talking and we've been texting. we're planning a clubhouse the three of us on friday. thanks very much. the book is "the memo," what women of color need to do to secure a seat at the table. alex carter, kat cole, thank you both and i'll talk to all three of you on clubhouse. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. it's wednesday, april 7th and this morning we've got a lot to cover starting with the latest in the fight against the coronavirus. the president setting a new deadline to make every adult eligible for the vaccine in less than two weeks, but it comes as multiple states are trying to control new surges. u.s. surgeon general vivek murthy will be here moments from now to discuss the race between vaccines and the variants. out in the state of george a more fallout over the controversial voting law. the state expected to lose up to $100 million after the major league baseball moved its all-star game out of georgia. overnight, the mayor there softening the blow of voting restrictions. keisha lance bottoms will be here to discuss her latest move and the trial of derek chauvin will resume with day 8 of time with sergeant

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