>> [silence]. to go off the record. >> [silence]. >> all right. the judge made a statement there. we are standing by for this trial to receive. kyle rittenhouse is being cross-examined by the prosecution. it is what it is. thomas is the prosecutor in this case asking the question: you intended to kill? the question was asked and answered at least two times maybe three. the answer was i intended to stop the deadly threat and not to kill. that's a tactic. we didn't know what that would be after the prosecution rested and we saw the defense attorney mark richards and kyle rittenhouse telling what happened that night including saying why he shot three people. he probing down at one point. we took several minutes break. he came back and proceeded with the details. wisconsin allows the use of deadly force to stop a threat. that's what kyle rittenhouse has said he did that night. let's go back into the courtroom with the judge. watch and listen with us. >> you are right on the borderline. you may be over. but it better stop. >> understood. >> i can't think of the initial case on it, but this is not permitted. all right. hmmm. ask the jury to come in, please. >> [silence]. >> all right, you heard the judge admonishing the prosecution. again, we are watching this all of us together as a nation. we are not inside that courtroom. sometimes it can be more than the words tcan be tone. but whatever it was the judge said we don't do it this way. i pointed out that one question was asked over and over again even though the prosecutor was getting an answer from the witness. he kept at it. don't know if that's the point or if there was tone. we are simply watching. when previously we were covering during the break, this same judge saw kyle rittenhouse breaking down. it was a powerful moment. he was about to say he shot people. the judge handed him a bottle of water. that judge is paying attention to more than just the words and the actions that are flowing through the courtroom. he is paying attention to tone and emotion and all of it. the jury is coming back in. when he has those moments the jury leaves. they come back in and the trial proceeds. let's watch. >> you are with an ar-15 semi-automatic rifle that evening? >> yes. >> you had it loaded with 30 rounds of full metal jacket ammunition, correct? >> yes. >> that weapon with 30 rounds is capable of killing at least 30 people, correct? >> yes. >> you had arranged to have dominic black purchase that weapon for you in lady smith, wisconsin, in early may of 2020, correct? >> hmmm. we were up north shooting -- not shooting. we were going camping and dominic black brought his rifle. we were talking. hey, will you get a rifle for me. i will give you the money. it's yours until i am 18. i bought the rifle for dominic and i can use it. once i am 18, we can do a private sale and we can have it turned over into my name once i turned 18. >> because you knew as a 17-year-old, you could not have that gun, correct? >> i knew i could not buy that gun. >> you knew you could not possess that gun, correct? >> no. >> you were not aware that under wisconsin law -- >> i will instruct the jury later. what he thinks on the subject is not relevant anyway. it was unlawful for him to purchase the gun. >> it wasn't just unlawful to purchase it but to bring it home, correct? >> in illinois i was not able to bring it home because i didn't have a firearm owner identification card in illinois. you can get that at 16 in illinois. >> but you did not vaone? >> i did not. >> and you never got one after this the gun was purchased for you? >> applied for the card in may. there was a backlog in illinois. after you filed the charges against me, it was denied because of the charges here in in state. >> you found out about that after were charged in this case? >> i found out about this in november of 2020. i letter was sent to my resident. >> you now without that card the gun could not go back to your residence in illinois, correct? >> yes. >> and you agreed it would be kept at dominic black's stepfather in kenosha? >> yes. >> and you agreed you would not have access to that gun, correct? >> we agreed that the only time i would use the gun is when i was with him and we would go to the bristol shooting range or up north to his land. >> the only time prior to the night of aug. 25, 2020 you ever used that gun was up in lady smith? >> correct. >> you didn't go to the bristal shooting range ever? >> i did. not with that rifle but i did. >> pay attention to my question, please. you didn't ever go to the bristal shooting range with with that gun? >> correct. >> you picked out that gun because dominic had one? >> correct? >> yeah. >> you could have chosen from any number of guns that were for sale, fair enough? >> that were at that store. there were not many, but yes. >> i am sure the store in lady smith is not the only store that silence guns. >> ask a question. >> that was a question. >> no, it was a statement. >> isn't it correct, mr. rittenhouse, there are other places to purchase guns besides that one store in lady smith, wisconsin? >> i believe so. but that's where we were at so that's where we got the gun. >> you could have given dominic black money to purchase a gun at other locations, fair? >> it didn't cross my mind but now you that you say it, yes. >> why did you want dominic black to buy for you an ar-15 as opposed to a pistol or shotgun or rifle? >> i can't legally possess or carry a pistol because i am not 18. i believe it's 18 in wisconsin for a pistol. but with the rifle i knew i could possess that rifle -- could not buy it but i could take it to the shooting range or possess it. with shotguns, they didn't have any in stock. that was my origin plan to get a shotgun for track shooting. i didn't want to go to wal-mart and buy one. >> your understanding was that wisconsin law prohibited you as a 17-year-old from possessing a pistol but you could have an ar-15? >> yes. >> what was that understanding based on? >> the understanding was based on when we would go up north. it was me and dominic and my sister. we were allowed to carry the rifles around. the officers said it was fine. >> i am going to move to strike this as hearsay. >> you asked the question what the extent of his knowledge was. it's not admissible and none of this is frankly. that's why i interrupted before. what the defendant believes to the law to be and what the district attorney believes the law to be what the defense believes the law to be are irrelevant. i will tell you when i instruct you what the law of wisconsin is pertaining to the possession of a firearm by a person under 18. that will be the source of your knowledge. i am allowing the testimony because it bears -- there is an old maxim under the law. ignorance of the law is not an excuse. ignorance of the criminal law is not excuse. if you commit a criminal act whether you knew it was criminaler not you are responsible for your conduct because you are responsible to know the law. it's not relevant but in this case there are specific issues about his awareness and knowledge about certain conduct that is relevant on some issues. it's complicated. hopefully it will sort out when i instruct you at the end. that's why i. am allowing the questions and the answers. don't be confused about anything these people say. is not necessarily accurate in wisconsin. any question about that? okay, thanks. go ahead. >> you are telling us the reason you wanted dominic to buy you an ar-15 and not a pistol is the only reason was because you felt you could not lawfully possess a pistol? >> correct. >> you didn't pick out the ar-15 for any other reason? >> i thought it looked cool, but no. >> you didn't pick it out because you wanted to go hunting with it, did you? >> no. >> you didn't pick it out because you were going to use it to protect your house? >> correct. >> you picked it out because it looked cool? >> i thought it looked cool. yes. >> it resembled the types of weapons used in first person shooter video games? >> i don't play those. i have. there are a variety of guns including shotguns and pistols. there are guns that resemble all guns. >> when you hung out with dominic black you played call of duty and other first person video games? >> sometimes. >> those are games where you use weapons like ar-15 to shoot anybody that comes at you? >> the video where 2 players are playing together -- i don't understand the meaning of your question. >> isn't one of the things people do in the video games try to kill everyone else with your guns? >> [silence]. >> yes, in the video. it's just a video game. it's not real life. >> you introduced yourself as living in walworth county right now? >> yes. >> on the date this happened you were an illinois resident? >> correct. >> you had grownup in illinois? >> correct. >> you had not spent any significant time living here in wisconsin? >> no. >> you agree that's correct? >> no. i spent time at my father's house and partially live here also. that's not correct. >> you indicated you had attended an online high school? >> correct. >> you were not attending high school in person? >> no. >> at the time that all of the things in this case were happening from the time that the ar-15 was purchased to the night of august 25th, you were 17 years old that entire time? >> correct. >> could we have exhibit number 7 up, please. >> [silence]. >> i put exhibit number 7 on the screen. do you recognize? >> that's my old tiktok account. >> that you had during the summer of 2020, correct? >> yes. >> and it says your name on there, kyle? >> yes. >> your user name on tiktok was four-doors and that's a picture of you with your ar-15? >> yes. >> underneath you put on your profile the phrase bruh, i am just trying to be famous. is that correct? >> yes. >> you were the one who wrote that? >> yes. >> you testified at some point you were involved in some sort of emt cadet fire program? >> yes, at antioch fire department. >> when was that? >> hmmm. i was a cadet at the antioch fire department i believe from 2018 or 2019 up until the incident of august 25th. >> an emt cadet is just beginning the process of eventually achieving full emt certification, correct? >> no. >> were you studying to be an emt before then? it's not formal classes? >> no, we met once a week. depending on the day we would do emt stuff like learning how to do airwaysor do fire fighter stufuff like crawling through buildings. >> with the antioch fire department? >> yes. >> you were not a member of the fire department? >> i was. >> you were an actual on-duty member on the rochester of the antioch fire department? >> no, no. no i was a member of the cadet program. we wore staff shirts. >> maybe i didn't express myself clearly. you were not a member of the antioch fire department, correct? >> i was a member of the cadet program through the fire department. >> you would go fight fires? >> we could go on ride alongs but not going into the burning building for liabilityerancy. they would not let cadets go into a live fire. reasons. they would not let cadets go into a live fire. >> at the end of the program you would not be an full fire fighter? >> no. >> or an emt either? >> no. >> to be an emt you have to be 18 and a high school graduate. >> depending on the state. at illinois you can take a state at the college at 16 and have the emt license at age 17. >> you never did any of that? >> no, i was on online school. >> the night of august 25th, you for kenosha, wisconsin saying you know an emt. that was a lie? >> yes. >> you were telling people you were 18 or 19 years old, that was a lie too? >> no, i didn't tell anybody my age that night. >> you never volunteered it? >> i didn't. >> you knew as a 17-year-old you should not have done that, right? >> no, i just didn't find it relevant to give my age to anybody. it wasn't something that came up in conversation. >> because you felt if people found out how old you were, they would realize you should not have been there, right? >> no, because it did not come up in conversation. if somebody asked i would have been like yeah i am 17. >> you felt as a 17-year-old it was appropriate for you to be out on the streets of kenosha with after ar-15? >> i believe i had a right to be there as anybody else. >> but you were not an adult? >> no. >> you indicated you remember working at the y? >> yes. >> that was a ymca in illinois? >> correct. >> you got furloughed there when covid hit in march? >> yes. >> you only started working at the rec place on august 14th, correct? >> i believe i got hired before that but i was on vacation. august 14, i was on vacation so i could not start until then. >> your first time working at the rec place was august 14th? >> i believe that was my first day. >> then you worked the week after that from august 17th to august 23rd? >> i believe so until august 24th. >> your final shift was august 24th. and you work 41.5 hours at the rec place? >> that's the number you got. >> you were a lifeguard? >> yes. >> you were walking around their swimming area with a red long life saving things monitoring the pool? >> yes. >> at the indoor pool? >> at the indoor -- i don't know if you are familiar with the rec place. i guarded the water park area and the competition pool. >> they have a water park area with a slide and zero entry pool? >> yes. >> and next to that they have an olympic sized pool where meets happen? >> they had a 50 pool divideed to make it give. >> you were a lifeguard at both? >> me and other guards will have 3 person shifts and rotate out watching different areas of our zones. >> you indicated that at no time did this gun, this ar-15 ever leave the state of wisconsin, is that right? >> other than the night -- >> before the shooting? >> correct. >> there was a time where you wanted to have it with you in illinois, wasn't there? >> hmmm. i believe there was a time when me and dominic were mad at each other. yeah. >> you were mad at dominic? >> me and dominic were mad over something. >> and you wanted the gun? >> i think i said something along those lines. >> you would agree with me that -- let me back up for a second here. you have testified to this jury that you used deadly force against joseph rosenbaum, anthony huber and the man who attempted to kick you in the face and gaige grosskreutz on august 25th? >> yes, did you that because you felt that your life was in danger from those 4 people, correct? >> yes. >> you are telling this jury that it was in your mind justified to use deadly force to protect your own life, correct? >> yes. >> you would agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to protect that car source building? >> i was not using deadly force to protect the property. i used deadly force to protect myself. >> please answer my question if you ask. you would agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to protect that car source building, correct? >> yes. >> you would agree that you were not allowed to use deadly force to stop someone from smashing the windows of an unoccupied parked car, correct? >> i don't think you could use deadly force for that. >> and you can't use deadly force to stop someone from lighting a metal dumpster on fire? >> correct. >> you can't use deadly force to stop someone from tipping over a porta-potty? >> correct. >> you would agree that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from lighting a flatbed trailer on fire? >> correct. >> you would agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone who is about to start an unoccupied car on fire? >> correct? >> correct. >> you can't use deadly force that lighting cones on fire? >> yes. >> you agree you can't use deadly force to protect property? >> yes. >> you previously indicated you wished you had your ar-15 to protect someone's property, correct. >> i will ask you to go in the library again for a moment. please. please don't talk about the case. >> [silence]. >> they are taking another quick break. when this happens with the judge, the jury goes into the library. emily compagno, what is your take on what is happening right now? >> everything that we are seeing right now with the prosecution is with the intent to drive home plugging those charges. bringing it back to what kyle rittenhouse is charged with and what he is alleging in his defense. reckless and intentional homicide and a few lesser charges. the issue is where he intended to kill these people in those moments. the reckless homicide we talked about this before. when you are brandishing a weapon at the point where you have just disregard for life -- will stay quiet. >> back to the courtroom. >> he is asking the questions. i asked the court to admonish him and the next time it happens i will ask for a mistrial. he is an experienced attorney and knows better. >> first, your honor, it was the subject of the motion i am well aware of that. the court left the door open. >> for me, not for you! >> my understanding -- . >> you should have come and asked for reconsideration and i granted that motion. excuse me. i did. >> we did not move for that. >> we have not filed any motions to reconsider the case. >> i said i denied it or indicated a bias towards denial. that's what i did. held it open with a bias towards denial. why would you think that made it okay for you without any advanced notice to bring this matter before the jury? you are already -- i was astonished when you began your examination by commenting on the defendant's post arrest silence. that's a basic law in this country for 50 years. i have no idea why you would do something like that. i will leave it at that. i don't know what you are up to. >> may i talk? >> yes! >> we filed another motion on this exact issue because in my mind and i argued this, it's identical to what was going on, on the night of august 25th in the sense that the defendant was using this exact same weapon in a manner to try to protect property. >> no, he wasn't! >> your honor, with all due respect. >> i won't rehash the motion. that's absolutely untrue. no, no, no, your argument is on record. my comments are on record. why i ruled as i did is on record. there is nothing i heard in this trial to suggest anything changed. even if you are correct in your assumption you know more than i did at the time, you should have come to the court and said i want to go into this. why you would think you can go into it without any advance notice to the court, i don't understand that. as the defense is pointing out you are an experienced trial lawyer and this should not have been gone into. >> your honor, there are things in this case, testimony in this case that opens the door to in. for example, the defense introduced evidence that the defendant pointed a gun a man in yellow pants because he was on a car source law. there was no justification to point a gun at someone. the disaster agreed with that person in the yellow pants that he pointed the gun at. he said i was joking. but he acknowledged he told the person in the yellow pants i pointed a gun at you when upper sitting on the car. may i finish, please? i would like to have a chance to make the record without being interrupted if that's okay. he used this gun to protect property and acknowledged he knows he can't do that. i am attempting to impeach him with the prior august 10th incident 15 days prior involving the same gun where he threatened to use that gun to protect property. >> [inaudible]. >> he said he wished he did so he could shoot people. >> there is a lot of difference between commenting about something when you don't have a gun and threatening someone when you do. >> it's interesting, your honor, because the defense theory -- >> don't tell me the defense theory of the case. >> i would like to respond what you said. i apologize madam court reporter, but i would like to make a record without anyone interrupting me. i believe there is a central part of the case that mr. rosenbaum was making threats he had no ability to carry out. you argued this august 10th incident and why you don't believe it's relevant is because the defendant didn't have the gun with him. this case is about someone who didn't have a weapon. the jury is told because of those threats, that means the defendant has to defend himself. with all due respect, your honor, mere verbal threats have been shown to the jury and used as a basis for someone's actions. i am attempting with the defendant to use his mere verbal threat on august 10th, 15 days prior that he will shoot shoplifters with his ar-15 to impeach the defendant. i apologize, your honor. you are right. i should have brought this to your attention. i may have misunderstood your ruling. i thought your ruling was the evidence in this case made that more relevant you would at least consider it. i believe based on the evidence that we heard and more specifically exactly what the defendant said earlier about admitting pointing a gun at someone nearly jumping or sitting on a dar that the door is open now to this testimony. i continue to believe that his state of mind and intent and his belief in self-defense is the core of this case. you are inclined against it. i understand that. we are in the middle of trial and a lot of evidence came in that makes this relevant. i am attempting to impeach the defendant on his beliefs. >> i am interrupting you. you are talking about his feelings. >> his statements too, your honor. he said you can't use deadly force to protect property. i am impeaching him on that. >> your honor, the course sees no reason to change the ruling. so the record is clear inspite of the lengthy statement by mr. binger. before we started today. the court said in mr. binger's presence there was nothing to have me change any of my rulings. there were occasions during this trial where they opened the door. the one time when they are going into mr. rosenbaum's prior -- reason he doesn't like guns. i whispered in mr. krause's ear because of prior convictions please stop and he did. if you go into something excluded in the pretrial order you better ask the court and get permission. >> this is ridiculous. >> it was excluded in the first place because it was propensity evidence. that's what 9040 is designed to prevent. his attitude is he wants to shoot people. i admitted that in other trials when it was appropriate. i didn't in this case. what i heard in this trial. mr. richard pointed out correctly i said i heard nothing in the trial to change any of my rulings. >> that was before the testimony. >> don't get brazen with me! you knew very well that an attorney can't go into these areas when the judge ruled without asking outside of the presence of the jury to do so. don't give me that? that's number 1. number 2, this is propensity every day. i will repeat again now for you: i see no similarities between talking about wishing you had your ar-15 to fire rounds at these shoplifters and the incidents in this case which are not -- there is nothing in your case that suggests the defendant was lying in wait to shoot at somebody or reflecting upon the shooting for a vast amount of time. every incident involves matters that involve seconds in time. i commented at the time i don't see the similarity and i don't see the similarity now. if it's not similar, that's the whole rule. those are all of the exceptions to 9004. check the authorities. judge winestein. the prior act has to bear a signature of the accused or be so similar has to suggest it's a common plan or something like that. you have an incident where he is making comments about alleged shoplifters versus crimes that involve instantaneous actions, whether premeditated murder or whether self-defense. that's for the jury to decide. i don't see the similarity. i said it can't come in. it isn't coming in! no matter what you think. number 2, i have to be concerned that with what mr. richards has said about the progress of the trial. when you -- said you were over the line on commenting on the defendant's pre-trial silence which is a well known rule. i am astonished that was an issue. i don't want another issue as long as this case continues. clear? >> it is. >> ask the jury to come back in, please. >> harris quickly, what is the bottom line with this? >> prior to trial there are a series of motions heard before the judge where the defense and prosecution argue about things that can and cannot come into trial. whether it's too prejudicial to the defendant. one subject is the defendant kyle rittenhouse talked about using his ar-15 in dense of property which is not allowed under wisconsin law. the prosecution started to go down that route. the jury stopped it and said don't bring this up. i already ruled and threatened to hold him in contempt and the defense attorney threatened to move for a mistrail. a tremendous tongue lashing to the prosecutor thomas binger. >> how does this affect the case? >> at this point, it's out of the jury's earshot. they may see a different line of questions. we will listen where they go. >> back on the trial. let's watch. >> i want to turn your attention to the day of august 25, 2020. >> okay. >> you had spent the night at dominic black's house? >> yes. >> and you indicated that you had worked at the rec plexi the night before? >> yes. >> and worked until 7 p.m.? >> i could not give you an exact time. between 6 and 7. i don't recall it's been a while. >> you drove your car over to dominic's house? >> yes. >> the rest of the time it seems like you are being driven around in mr. black's car, fair to say? >> yes. >> why did you use his instead of yours if you know? >> at the time i didn't have have a driver's license. i would drive just to get to work and go to dominic's house. >> even though you didn't have a driver's license you drove from your home to work? >> yes to, get to work. >> after work, you drove without a driver's license to dominic black's house? >> yes. >> i assume then on the week prior to that when you would drive yourself to work that was also without a driver's license. >> i not bopect t this. >> i will move up. >> i spent atit night at his house and this dinner. i was on social media and saw all. damage. we went downtown. >> you came down in dominic's car? >> correct. >> you said that there was a time enough were cleaning grafitty? >> yes. >> and you went to one car and encountered the owners? >> yes. >> which car source location was that? >> right here. >> that's one on the northeast corner of 59th? >> correct. >> that's the one that got burned down on one of the previous nights? >> yes. that was the one where everything was destroyed. the other car sources still had cars there. >> before that, had you ever worked at car source before? >> no. >> have you brought a car there? >> no. >> had you heard of car source? >> yes. >> through dominic? >> no, i would drive past it on a daily basis. i was in kenosha almost every day and drove down sheridan road. >> you saw the business along with the churches and the gas station and the courthouse in that area? >> yes. >> and you talked to these owners yourself? >> me and dominic did. >> did they ask you to come protect the property? >> they didn't ask me directly. they asked nick smith. >> was he around at that moment? >> not when me and dominic were talking to them. >> did you ever personally witness any of these car source folks running that business, did you personally ask nick smith to guard their properties? >> no. >> did you witness them to ask anyone to guard their properties? >> not that i can recall. >> what time did you find out that they asked nick smith? >> i believe i said in my direct examination between 3:15 and 3:30. >> that was after you sent a text to sam? >> correct. >> you texted him and asked him if you could protect his business? >> i did. >> you said i am more than willing and will be warmed? >> yes. >> armed with the ar-15? >> yes. >> and you said that me and my brother would both are there armed, correct? >> yes. >> by your brother you meant dominic? >> yes. >> he is not legally your brother? >> no. >> you said in the text i just need address? >> do you recall? >> yes. >> why did you seed the address of a location you had already been to? >> i wanted to pinpoint it on google maps. gps, also of the roads were closeed in kenosha. i wanted to know the best route to drive there with dominic. >> you told us you drove past here every day up and down sheridan. why do you need gps to help you find this place every day? >> the roads were not closed. >> but you still knew where you were going? >> not on the back roads. >> okay. let's talk about the roads being closed. what do you mean by that? >> sheridan road was closed off. i am trying to tomorrow. there were a lot of roads closed off. i could not tell you exactly their names right now. >> was that because there was construction? >> no, they were closed off because of the riots. >> to keep people out of the area, right? >> yes. >> and you knew there was a curfew that night, right? >> hmmm. i believe i got an emergency alert text at 8 p.m. >> just like everybody else saying stay off the street. >> objection. there is no curfew charge. >> it's relevant to his decision making. >> just like everybody else. you got a message saying get off the streets at 8 o'clock that night, right? >> yes. >> despite that message, you came down, correct? >> i was already in kenosha. downtown when i got that message. >> once you got that message you didn't decide i will go home like i am supposed to, correct? >> i stayed at the car stores. >> you knew there was a curfew in place that meant you should not be there anymore, correct? >> i would say hundreds if not thousands of other people there that night that also got the same message. >> if they are breaking the law you can too? >> i don't think the curfew was really being enforced. >> if the law is not enforced you can disregard it. >> objection, your honor. >> [silence]. >> you said there was a time in which nick smith asked you guys to drive him down to chicago? >> correct. >> to buy a piece of body armor? >> correct. >> down by o'hare? >> correct. >> you guys were willing to do that at first? >> dominic was willing to do it. it was more of dominic's thing. nick smith was going to give $20 to dominic to buy gas. >> nick smith was going to pay $20 for the gas to drive down to o'hare where nick smith was planning on buying body armor? >> yes. >> the idea was the body armor would be used that night, correct? >> i believes so. >> that's why there was urgency about going down right away? >> yes. >> this is part of the plan to come down to downtown that night, right? >> [silence]. he wanted to go to o'hare to buy the body armor, so yes. >> do you understand my question. >> can you rephrase it? >> absolutely. the urgency to get that body armor that day was because he needed it for that night, right? >> i would not say he needed it but wanted it. >> instead of making the drive, you gave your own body armor to nick smith? >> correct. >> you had it along with you? >> yes. >> you brought it along you with that day because you thought you might need it yourself that night? >> no, i kept it in my trunk of the car. i always had it. >> you drive around with body armor in the trunk of your car regularly? >> it was just in the back of my trunk. i never really took it out. >> you saidality some point that day you went to the hunting and fishing score on highway 31. at day you went to the hunting and fishing score on highway 31. to buy slings? >> correct. >> one for you and one for dominic. >> bought 2 slings? >> yes. >> it attaches to the gun in one location and wraps around your body to help you retain possession of the weapon, correct? >> you probably know more about them than i do. i just got it to hold the rifle. i don't have to worry about it being stolen. >> you realized you could not have that gun on you while you were doing any medical aide, correct? >> i knew i could not without a sling have if on me. i got the sling to have my hands free. >> even when you had the sling you took off your entire gun apparatus and handed it to joanne because it was in the way of treating isn't? >> yes, because the rifle was hitting the ground. when i bought it, that was the purpose of it. i don't think it really worked now they think of it. >> this big long ar-15 really got in the way whenever you tried to help someone, right? >> sometimes. >> if you had a handgun, for example, you could have been physically more easy for you to try to treat someone, fair? >> if i could have legally carried a handgun i would have carried a handgun instead of a rifle. >> you grabbed some medical supplies from dominic black's house before you came downtown that night? >> i grabbed extra gauze but that's about it. >> [silence]. >> you testified earlier that your ar-15 was loaded with 30 rounds of ammunition, is that right? >> yes. >> where did that ammunition come from? >> that was from our last trip up north. >> when the gun was left at dominic black's house it had that ammunition with it? >> hmmm. yes. theammo was in the box or the magazine. >> when you were at dominic black's house on august 25th, you found that ar-15 downstairs in his basement, correct? >> no. >> where did you find it at? >> it was downstairs in the basement but i was told by dominic black go downstairs and grab your rifle. >> so, you knew up until that point that rifle was being stored in a gun-safe in the garage? >> correct. >> you didn't have the code or access to the gun? >> i did not. >> on this particular day, dominic black's stepfather had moved that gun into the house, correct? >> yes. >> you didn't know that beforehand? >> i didn't. >> you didn't know it was taken out of the safe? >> no. >> you went downstairs and grabbed it? >> after instructions from dominic i went downstairs and grabbed it. >> and the magazine was already inserted in the rifle? >> it did. >> and it was loaded with 30 rounds? >> i believe so. >> when you did chamber a round? >> i don't know if i ever did. >> you had to have to fire the gun? >> i think it was already chambered when i got it. that's what i remember. i don't remember racking it at all that night. >> the way this type of gun works is that you have to have a magazine withammo in it and insert the magazine into the gun and rack it to load a round into the chamber? >> yes. >> you were familiar with how to do that? >> yes. >> it can't discharge unless a bullet is racked into the chamber? >> correct. >> your testimony is that you never had to do the initial racking because the bullet was already in the chamber when you took possession of in that day? >> yes. i believe so. i believe it was already racked. >> the ammunition that was in that was full metal jacket? >> 223 full metal jacket. >> the caliber and the casing? >> full metal jacket is the bullet type. >> and there are different types of bullets like hollow point bullets? >> yes. >> you were in the process ever purchasing this gun -- let me back up for a second. you said that the 30 rounds of ammunition were left over from when you were up in lady smith? >> yes. >> and you were practicing with the gun up there? >> yes. >> and dominic black's family had a shooting range up there? >> they have a gravel pit where it's safe to shoot. >> you and dominic would practice with your ar-15 shooting at target in that gravel pit? >> correct. >> you would shoot at 75 yards away? >> no. >> how close were the targets? >> i think the furthest i got was from me to the tv. >> you didn't shoot at any targets farther away than that? >> no. >> dominic black testified me shot at targets 55 yards away. did you see him do that? >> i didn't but i don't know what dominic black was shooting at. i was not with him when he did that. >> you are aware of the fact that the ar-15 is capable ever hitting targets much further away than you and the tv, correct? >> i believe so. >> did you know the capabilities of your own weapon? >> i knew it could shoot and i believe from a distance. i am not an expert on ar-15s. >> did you personally purchase that 223 full metal jacket ammunition? >> i did not. dominic did. >> did you ask him to purchase it? >> i did not. >> you didn't know what type of ammo was in the gun? >> i knew they were 223 full metal jacket because i had to load it into the magazine. >> you knew the type of round but didn't know what the rounds were capable of doing? >> i believe a bullet is a bullet. >> as you sit here today you know there are different types of bullets? >> yes. >> you know the hollow points bullets, for example, do different things to an animal or human than full metal jacket bullets? >> yes, full metal jackets is like a defense -- like another type of defense round. people use full metal jacket for hunting and hallow points is something that causes more damage. >> hollow point bullets are designed to hit the animal they are shot, a deer, for example and explode inside that body, correct? >> no, i don't think so. >> when you say explode? are you saying expand or explode? there are such things as exploding bullets. >> let me rephrase. what is your understanding of what a hollow point bullets would do to a deer? >> i don't think they use those for that. >> let me reflays it. -- phrase it. people use hollow point bullets in a pistol for use against other people. what is your understanding of what it would do to a human? >> i believe it would do the same thing as any other bullet. a bullet is a bullet. i believe hollow points -- am sorry. i don't know much about ammo. i am trying to think of what i remember. i don't know much about ammo. >> you don't the difference between a full metal jacket bullet and a hollow point? >> i believe a hollow point -- i don't know how much about this. i believe a hollow points would cause more damage. >> to the first target but it would not continue through to any other targets? >> i don't know. >> a full metal jacket bullet is designed to continue through the first target and keep flying? >> correct. >> you know, >> first of all, the hollowpoint is not guaranteed to stay in the first object struck, so what you said was not correct. >> there is no testimony on that your honor. figure, but you've been testifying, we are going to break for lunch, please don't talk about the case, and don't we will see you back about 12:45. let's say 1:00 p.m. i apologize for taking time away from you. >> about an hour from now this trial will resume. they're going to take a lunch break right now the judge correcting the time. he's got a couple of meetings, all of those things are details. but we are reporting details about this judge because his voice has permeated the trial over and over and that entanglement he got into with the prosecutor over the judges predetermined rules for this trial were quite the moment. >> quite the moment that we have seen for sure. i just want to point out, i was talking to some folks who are watching the trial and they said i've never heard these facts before that he allegedly fired in self-defense, with the defense is telling us, why did they never hear? we have the young turks a and he murdered two people, msnbc going as far as to analogize these two this guy to school shooter. now he gets his day in court. and boy, we have heard a lot of facts that have been a lot out of the public coverage. >> one of the things we saw that you don't see in every case like this is that young 18 -year-old defendant on the stand, while he did have to take a ten minute break to regather himself, as he talks about pulling that pulling the trigger and shooting three people, two of them dead. he gathered came, came back, and was able to talk about the self-defense, but we haven't heard the details as much as we have today. that's why you watch the trial. one hour from now we will pick back up. for now, "america reports". >> thank you so much as we continue is dunning and stunning and emotional day in the kenosha was cottons courthouse. kyle rittenhouse taking the stand. i'm john roberts, welcome to "america reports" on a wednesday. >> great to have you here in new york again. he has taken the stand on day eight of the homicide trial against him. he said he did not go to kenosha looking for trouble and pulled the trigger on that august night in self-defense. prosecutors dispute that saying he was the aggressor and that his actions took the lives of to men. to get mike tobin has been

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