We will break and have lunch. We will regather at 12 20. [indistinct conversations] dr. Hertzfeld so this one will not have as many sort of virtual folks. It is all in person. Soho karen has readily managed her risks by not having any virtual dispense on her panel. Not sure how she did that. It is all of this year. We talked about the task and experienced before, and this is more future looking and where are we going now . Karen com over to you. U. Karen thank you, scott, and actually, we are all holograms. No one is actually here. [laughter] i was not speaking into it. I was speaking into this volunteer im not sure why it is there. That is for cspan. [laughter] dr. Pace an advertisement for cspan, im watching their feet, the recording, it looks excellent. Whenever it is available, i urge you to take a look at that. That probably be the reporting of record for this event. Thanks. Karen ok. Welcome to panel 2. Well be talking about future strategies for Publicprivate Partnership. I think it is an interesting time and a lot of unique risks that we are facing these days, that Many Industries are facing these days could we will take a look at how best to make these risks, and here we have 18. We have an attorney here who understands the legal issues. We have a fellow here from inqtel. I will ask them all to introduce themselves briefly. We have jen ross here, who can tell a company how best to approach the government, and we have chris, who understands the risk and how to approach the interest side. I would like to briefly ask you to give a brief introduction, and we will move forward. Kevin i name is kevin pomfret. Im a partner with Williams Mullen law firm in tysons. Before going to law school, i was a satellite imagery analyst, the predecessor clerk nga, and i worked on the soviet missile account, which tells you how long ago it was cute i work with a lot of geospatial Satellite Companies and a variety of commercial and government contracts and things. Im also on the Advisory Committee to noaa. Hopefully we will get started quickly. I work with some foreign governments on legal and regulatory issues, counseling them, and i also class at john. Yes i also teach a class at johns hopkins. Tom hi, tom gillespie, i am a managing partner at inqtel, we investing commercially focused startups. We have been involved in space of the last eight or nine years. We take board observer seats, investments on about 17 of those. Jen hi, everyone, i am jen ross, a consultant to spacer this commandment, staying at the commercial space office. I was at the joint Aerospace Corporation for a few years, and prior to that i was a professional short seller at a hedge fund, so a little bit generic and economics tries to merge together and bring that knowledge to the commercial space office. Chris im chris kunstadter, the global head of space at axa xl. I head up the space insurance group. We head out anyone from many, live providers, space agencies, would have you. Anyone who has an asset for reliability in space, we work with. We do a lot of work with different parts of space landscape, if you will. Karen ok, thank you, everyone. We will launch into our first question, which is about industry and market trends. And what does the future hole, specifically. What are some new and emerging challenges that we must acknowledge and face . I would like to start with tom gillespie. Tom sure. Looking at the commercial market in general, the last number of years, ive seen a lot of private investment come into the sector. Has been a little rougher the last year or two as have cooled up a little bit, but a lot of new investors, interest in the commercial segment. Ukraine, the conflict in ukraine, interesting and how that has played out. We have a couple of companies that have played a role there. I think that is helpful as you look at investment, more interesting in what is going on in the sector. It is not only related to that, it things going beyond, investing in the last number of years. At this point, i think we are looking further out, on out to lunar, so we are seeing a lot of business plans, getting into remotesensing, logistics, space domain awareness, and comms in general. A lot things are happening. Challenges, you know, it is still hard to get meaningful government contracts in a lot of cases. You see Companies Getting initial contracts from places like dod, but you are not seeing huge numbers in some cases, and i think we would like to see, just speaking more broadly for investors, is what is the demand signal out there . If i do something, and it looks like it is going to work for this market, how big does the market get . Who had a background on this company, just knowing, how does it look down the line . The more investors can understand the better and more meaningful contracts happened the better. The last thing i will say is just on the financial side, in general, last year has been challenging for the investor side, particularly in the growth round. That is still kind of the case. I think the space sector nuclear needs to see more financial access. We seen some smallish acquisitions, we seen spacs that have worked out, kind of a mixed bag. So the more they can work out my think that is good. What kind of buzz was that . [laughter] karen i would like to ask you, and i would like a team to tight end. I just attended a conference called investing in space, sponsored by the Financial Times in london, two weeks ago. Part of it is about the hy pe,. Is there hype . One journalist used the term zombie statistics, so where are we in be hype cycle, and how do we deal with that as an industry . Jen i can take some of that. We saw early on, and i go back click quote from josh wolf at lux capital. He said there are fobs and fomo, and a lot of investments we make our fomo, fear of missing out, but also sobs, shame of being suckered. [laughter] 800 liquidity at 0 , investors need a place to put capital, and you saw investment in high risk ventures, right . I can say over the last year and a half, as industries have been rising, we see a different risk tolerance profile. Im seeing different bifurcations in the market. Im seeing less money going to growth stage can still investments in the early states. We consolidation, because they are less exits we are seeing right now, we are starting to see more vacancies for companies that have not happy availability that have not had the ability for spot rounds, cash profitability. So i think we are at that natural consolidation cycle, and it is really going to depend on where Interest Rates go and liquidity goes over the next six months to 12 months. First of all, i think, isnt everything nowadays all hype . That is where we are as a society. There is hype around space but elsewhere. There are Certain Industries where the government have a light touch, and Certain Industries where the government has to facilitate the business to succeed, right . From a regulatory standpoint. I do a lot of work in geospatial, so the Drone Industry several years ago was getting a lot of hype around the geospatial capabilities. But because regulatory issues got so far, a lot of companies are really struggling to degrees a lot of money, but they are struggling, because they cannot do a lot of things they want to do, without getting approval from the faa. Particularly as you move out, the space sector being slow, the regulatory being slow to allow the space sector to do what he needs, to be able to attract investors and to be able to continue to generate revenue and to grow. Karen yeah. It is a good point. I want to come back to consolidation that jen mentioned briefly. Is an interesting time in that regard. Do you think, in the current climate, we are going to see more consolidations, despite the fact that we have an administration that is really scrutinizing heavily these mergers, especially if they are horizontal . Tom i do think we will see more consolidation. I think despite the trends, i think it is part of where we are in the cycle, and on the ventures i, you are going to see companies that have assets that maybe are not making it with businesses, and i think we will see them combined. I do not think they will go away completely. Chris we talk about the space economy. We should probably retire that phrase. The space economy as part of the economy, right . The economy writ large. Space economy does not stand on its own, so when we talk about investments and consolidation and that sort of thing in the space economy, it is actually broader than that. Theres more verbalization, theres more, you know, a company that has satellite is not have a company that has satellites, they have an internet worker would have you. So i think were going to see more sort of crossvertical consolidation, you know, maybe not just Space Companies buying Space Companies, but more broadening of bacteria karen chris of that. Karen chris, they were talking about for that reason, you have the cloud, which is included in that. It becomes almost a double counting kind of function that can occur, but it is large. The key word is convergence with other industries that are growing really quickly. So that goes well for the space as well. But it is just a very hard industry in the sense that it can be very crosscutting to size quickly. Chris things in space take a lot longer than people think. Take a lot longer to bring out a new launch vehicle, to roll out a new consolation. It just takes a lot longer than peoples optimistic, you know, ideas and pitches in that sort of thing. Space may take a long time. Kevin i was going to add, to chriss point, the syndicates are international and filled with corporate and unexpected progress. We are in a deal right now that has got porsche ventures, between ventures, john deere, all over the map, things would not make that would be interested in space ler. Tom yes, our company as an insurance company, we are looking at similar investments, and a competitor of ours, we are doing a few of those, too. Karen i want to get back to synergy and when our Publicprivate Partnerships appropriate, and we are they not appropriate . How can the u. S. Government development, looking forward to the future, some foundational approaches to educate our sector in a more kind of structured way . We heard in the first panel, and moon kim spoke to metricsi wants we look at many of these partnerships. Kevin that is a good question. I have two thoughts. The first, i have been in a lot of meetings where industry and government talk about partnerships. I am always struck by the fact that i think they hear Different Things when that term is used. For industry, i think they hear, i am going to get some revenue and make my investors happy. And theres an opportunity for longterm contract. For government, a think they here, though good, weve got someone to help us pay for what we want to do. For a lot of segments, we are Getting Congress off our back because they keep telling us to work with the commercial sector. Youve got a misalignment of expectations for expectations. It does not dig deeply into the real issues associated with Publicprivate Partnerships. Partnerships are the hardest legal documents to create because you are supposed to Work Together but you have to think about what happens with if you dont. Youre not thinking about ip. Ip risk, liability, return on investment all of the things that in a normal environment you would because youve got misalignment. I think that is a real challenge. The other thing i see, and i am going to reference someone on linkedin i follow, he, the other day, posted he follows the ecosystem and he talked about it being three sectors. Commercial, public good, science and research. The public good would be defense , infrastructure, those type of things. I think it broadly applies to the space industry as well for a lot of the work done in space. From a partnership standpoint, that is really hard. I think government inherently thinks of public good, research and science. Those are different risk profiles, different returns on investment. It is hard for industry to work in a ppp that satisfy its all of the requirements associated. There was a question you asked about weather data, making Data Available to everyone including scientists. That is a great purpose, but there are challenges associated with companies trying to sell to the government and no one is collecting all their money to buy a global data set. That is hard to work in a business environment, whether it is ppp or otherwise. In a construction contract when building a tollroad or energy plant or something, they dont worry about the scientists. What is the return on investment and risk. Also with research and development, they understand the rate of return, the risk and how long it is going to be. When you are mixing it and trying to bring them together, that is really hard. I guess that its time for me to stop. [laughter] the big thing i would have is, think about what your expectations are, but also think of the other side, what they are looking to get out of this. I do not think that is done necessarily in all of the sectors. Public good and science are important but maybe we look at ways to deal with it in a ppp environment if you really want that to work. Karen that sounds right. When it first started studying Public Private partnerships, we went to fundamental industries and they are too different from space. You do not have the Science Mission behind it. How do you quantify that . How do you integrate that into a partnership . The closest comparison i had was the pharmaceutical industry in which there is a science element. But i want to hear from the other panelists. Jen . Would you like to try men . Jen which part . Karen Publicprivate Partnerships and the challenges moving forward. How do you adapt and make it work for a Space Mission . Jen i look at it more broadly than just a specific divination and more about commercial partnerships and integration. I will caveat that i think contractor, Space Systems commands are not necessarily spots. We have a number of programs of record that provide capabilities, but there is the vendor lock. They have traditionally gone to Large Companies that are incumbent. What the general has started with the leadership of the kernel is the commercial space office. Theres a number of entities underneath that office to try to help companies from the very low trl stages all the way through ready to sell service. If you are looking for information on how to navigate space force acquisition, or how to get enough cl information you would go to the front door. That office is standing up a website to make the Response Time faster and to get more information out there. As Companies Start to grow, you might need coinvestments to help move the technology along. Space force, which is a part of but their foot is under the consul office. We will lead companies that direction. They might have venture capital. There are programs where we can have matching funds. As you move further along, we are going to have entities who work with our Space SystemsIntegration Office to do thoughtful, deliberate integration into our National Security space architecture. One of the things they are trying to do is to get a commercial Program Element line in the budget so that we can show industry we are serious about this. We really do want to get contracts out there, then work to get money and contracts to implement some of this with integration. How do we take these technologies come integrate it into our system, tested in an environment and start training our folks so that it becomes part of the whole ecosystem. We are trying to get past some of these barriers we have with vendor lock. Karen that is a good point. Chris, from a risk perspective as we look at p3 entities approaches with government contractors, what are the things that you look for . Chris we come into the equation late into the game. The insurance we provide starts typically at launch, or prelaunch. So by then, the program is pretty well established, generally. As opposed to a traditional ppp, i look at the commercial free flyer, the commercial space stations. You have four companies trying to put together proposals for that and plan to build them. That is a lot of work. That is a tremendous expense. One of the insurance aspects of that is you have these very large structures, or very large space stations, and you were launching them on a falcon heavy, vulcan, or what have you, that is a lot of risk to have in one place. There isnt enough capital in the marketplace today to take that much risk. The market does not have the appetite. That is one of the issues that we see with risk. We are agnostic to the contract vehicle. Whether it is or what have you. We are fairly agnostic to that. We respond to the risk we are presented. We respond to the technical and financial exposure we are presented with. I would say that commercial free flyers are probably the best current example. Although, we were just talking before lunch about the commercial augmentation space reserve. There are elements of that that are public and private. There are the risks to the operators which exist for operators today who are providing commercial services to the government. They can be seen as legitimate targets i our adversaries. I think the whole concept and i look forward to working on this, is interesting because there are much broader implications. We have the Civil Reserve Air fleet which has been around for decades, which is an analog, but there are inferences. We look at the risk we are presented with. Karen the one take away here is that it is complex. There is a lot of complexity in terms of financial terms and insurance terms and technical choices we make. In a previous panel, there was a lot of discussion around metrics. A lot of discussion arou