fulton county jail after, of course, being criminally charged, allegedly trying to overturn joe biden's election victory in the state of georgia. meanwhile, mark meadows -- you know who that is, of course. he is trying a now last-ditch legal maneuver to try to avoid his own surrender by, of course, that friday noon deadline. and you've got a dozen defendants, including the former president. they have all struck bond deals that have been signed by a judge. a dozen of course, is not yet 18. we also learned tonight that rudy giuliani set to meet with the fulton county da's office tomorrow. talk about a possible bond agreement -- i want to turn right now to cnn correspondent tom foreman. he's at the magic wall, breaking it down for us on what's happening right now. also cnn senior law enforcement analyst and former fbi director andrew mccabe and -- sarah matthews, and former federal prosecutor jeanne rossi. but back to you, tom foreman, in terms of what is going on right now. break it down. how are we going to unpack all of this? >> we will start with the two people you named to begin with. john eastman -- this is the trump lawyer who led the charge on the plan, whereby mike pence would not certify the votes and they would kick it to the house of representatives and or two gop-controlled legislatures around the country, where they would simply declare trump to be the winner. he gave us another impassioned speech today as he turned himself in saying, look, i am just a lawyer representing the president. if you make this illegal, how are we going to do our job? scott hall, bail bondsman down in atlanta -- he is tied to the coffee county election machine breach. remember, they were machines up there with the investigation found a group of trump allies went in there and took data from these machines, which the prosecutor says is in violation of law. two so far -- too mugshot so far. but as you note, we have got 19 total defendants. there is going to be a bit of a rush at the courthouse the next couple of days, laura coates. >> i want to bring in our panel for a second, guys. because we are looking at this. and this is really a yearbook photo in many respects that is going. on sarah matthews, let me begin with you. because this has been a tangled web of people. remember what happened with jack smith, of course, that indictment down and washington valley see. that was one defendant, and we had three, as, in fact, in mar-a-lago -- now we've got 19, the fulton 19. the fact you have all these people involved -- and mark meadows is fighting not to even be arrested. what does this tell you? >> i think that, obviously, this is a wide stretching case. but i think it goes to show how many people were involved, and that there was an effort to try to overturn the results of the election. these people knew full well what they were doing. and while i am happy to see trump be indicted in these other cases, like the doj when that you reference, i actually am happy to see the trickle down effect and see some of these other folks who knew full well what they were doing. they put up all these different court cases. and time and time again, they failed. and they continued to push these efforts despite knowing that trump did not lose the election. and then we see john eastman even today, literally, saying that the 2020 election was stolen. if that was the case, i would love to see a single shred of evidence. but none of them have yet to produce anything, including the former president. >> gene rossi, speaking of that notion of the trickle down, it's -- because you represented clients who have breached the capitol who were -- and had to address this notion of pointing fingers and who is directing who and, oh, am i going to be now accountable? and liable for what someone said -- told -- to do? how do you see the fact that all these people -- we know mark meadows, right? we know giuliani, we know sydney powell. we know a lot of these household name people. but a lot of these people on this list, not a lot of people know them. >> we have an indictment of 19 people. by the way, it is really not 19 people. there are 30 unindicted coconspirators. you've got 50 people. that is a lot. >> i've got to do math on a tuesday night with you right now? the only math i do is for billing. but go on, keep going. >> absolutely. but here's what happened. we have 19 people and about the top five are the most important. the ones at the bottom wrong are probably talking to their lawyers and vice versa. i have got to do a beeline to fani willis, and i have got to cooperate. because i am a minnow. and the smallest one on this totem pole. and i've got to cooperate and get out of jail. and what you are going to see is people cooperating, probably, in the next 2 to 3 months, after they get discovery. and i predict that the david schaffer's of the world and that latham possibly could cooperate. -- my legal fees are not getting paid by anybody but me. and i've got to think about myself. and what i used to tell cooperators is, the most important person in your life is you. forget everybody else. forget your old buddies on the street. the most important person is you. and andy mccabe will tell you, when they start focusing on who they are and what is in the cards for them they are going to cooperate. >> that's how you lean on them in some respects, right, to have them understand contextually? you have some perspective here. you are by yourself right now. >> that's right, i think -- is absolutely. right i don't think there is never been a 19 person rico case that survive going to trial with all 19 defendants. you decide who to charge and how you are going to charge those people with a very close eye on who the very most significant targets and where those folks that you think are most likely to cooperate, to make an effort to cooperate, to plead guilty, to reduce charges, to provide effective testimony against the people who you believe are most responsible for these crimes. and i am sure that is sort of playing in the -- environment. >> i want to turn back to tom foreman at the magic wall. because, as you know, mark meadows is really fighting hard to get his case out of state court, brought to federal court. of course, that does not mean that he won't be charged on state charges. that will still hold. it will be in federal court and successful -- but he is not allowing there either. he has been joined now by two other defendants in his pursuit. what can you tell us? >> i can tell you that mark meadows and jeffrey clark, who worked at the doj, both are taking the stance of saying, look, we are federal people. we were serving the president in that role. and therefore, this does not belong in a state court. it had nothing to do with happened in the state. david shafer, you mentioned him a moment ago. former gop georgia chairman -- he is trying to make the same claim by saying, well, i was just doing what i was hearing from the top. the bottom line is, he would love to join them in migrating over to federal court. but this question is, does that take everybody else with him or not? why would they want to do that? there are several reasons. number one, trump's strategy, it slows everything down. any time you do anything in this case, is going to slow down. all these people, all these lawyers, a lot of these are going to get slow down. that's one of the slowing things. potentially more sympathetic jurors -- and debate about this -- with the notion being that if you brought on the jury pool in a federal hearing, further beyond fulton county, beyond atlanta, which will lean so much more blue, you might get some more trump sympathetic jurors in their. and there are no fans oral cameras in federal courts. -- appear on tv day after day and -- accused of things. and maybe some more legal avenues for defense. the question is, who else winds up over there with -- >> it's really important point. let's bring in the panel and talk about. it first of all, we are talking about removal to federal court. it's not a slam dunk that it is going to happen without it's guaranteed. you've got to first tell me that you were somehow acting under the color of your office, meaning that this was part of your job description in some ways. and you can't just charge me for doing my job. the other thing is, a viable federal defense. i don't know that it's a parent that will happen here, knowing that, of course, elections are the purview of the states. so, what about the chief of staff's role? and mark meadows would be something, sarah, that suggests, well, look, this is part of what he was supposed to be doing. and there is a claim that he's acting in his office. >> i would love to see if mark meadows, then, is willing to say -- 2020 election wasn't stolen. that would contradict, then, that, you know, if he is saying, i'm just doing my job and carrying out the duties that the president wanted -- okay, well, then, so you knew it was not stolen, that this was all a lie. but you were pushing it at the direction of your boss. and i also think it will be interesting to -- i think there has been some reporting out there -- that meadows is no longer in communication with the former president. and so i think -- >> without surprise you if that were the case? >> no. i think that if mark meadows is smart, he will flip. because he needs to, honestly. he was at the center of a lot of what these indictments are, whether it is the classified documents, case whether it is january 6th, these fake electors scheme -- he was there and present. and so i think that he knows a lot. trump world should be really worried if he is cooperating, whether that is with the doj or in this fulton county, georgia case. and so, only time will tell. but mark meadows should know, as i do, having worked in trump world, trump demands loyalty from everyone but gives it to no one. and so i think trump will very easily throw him under the bus. so -- >> i mean, the assumption was, when we did not see him in the indictment for january 6th, or even mar-a-lago, to a larger point, that he was assumed -- we don't know -- but a soon to be a co-operator. we had this conversation and -- fulton county. does this show you that, maybe, fani willis either has not had the communication with them? or that he has refused to do so? or that, look, she is not interested? because she might have enough already? >> we know that we are there is great signals -- as you mentioned -- that he has been cooperating with the federal investigation. and there has been reporting out today that he is very carefully responded to their requests. you he put up some resistance in terms of the grandeur, a claimed executive privilege. but as soon as that was knocked down he came in and testified fully. not so much on the georgia side -- right? he resisted coming to georgia to testify before the grand jury. when he did finally get dragged, and we understand that he claimed his first amendment privilege and refused to answer any questions. so, i think it is not surprising that he ended up as a defendant in that case and is not yet a defendant on the federal side. >> yet. >> yet. yeah, i think that there are, what? six unindicted coconspirators referred to in the january 6th complaint? now, mark meadows is very notably not included in that list. he is referred to as the presidents chief of staff. but i think that investigation is far from over. and he could very well, just like any one of those six unindicted coconspirators, could find themselves facing charges at some point in the future, unless he actually solidifies official cooperation agreement with the federal government. >> talk about what that would be like, though. because -- let's assume for the sake of argument that mark meadows, right now, he's following the advice of sarah and saying, look, i'm smart, i'm going to do this. how does that work from the defense perspective? you are his attorney, let's were tanned, and you are going to fani willis, or you are going to jack smith. and what are you saying? and are you hoping, at this point, that what i have to offer cannot be found anywhere else? >> let me tell you something. he has a fantastic attorney, george terwilliger. so, it goes back to what we said. you have to think about yourself. and i think mark meadows is reflecting on, should i take a bullet for the team? should i take a bullet for donald trump? but in terms of the cooperation, he would be the gold standard for the prosecutors. if he provided information to the prosecutors in a january 6th case, in the fani willis case, he would be an explosive witness. >> he very well could be. but you know who else might be a bit of an explosive witness? because, at the time, right now -- the words and the name rudy giuliani come to mind. we are going to talk about that. he is likely to meet tomorrow with -- fulton county d.a.'s office just tomorrow -- just hours after reporting that he was struggling to find a lawyer in georgia which, by the way, tom, we have heard a lot when it comes to codefendants for donald trump. that happened with walt nauta -- council -- mr. carlos their oliveira -- as well for them -- in the arraignments. giuliani, though, may have a different reason. what is going on? >> giuliani is facing some interesting circumstances here. number one, he has been way out front in this whole thing. number two, we know he has been having trouble paying his bills and it is not clear if donald trump is helping him with any of that. so, when he goes to meet there, maybe he is just setting up a deal. maybe he is setting up another deal. we don't know. we do know that former bernie kerik, the former new york city police commissioner and an underwriter coconspirator in the georgia case, has been offering some help to help him coordinate his efforts. here we do know this. rudy giuliani cannot get through this without having a lawyer down there. it will be interesting to see who he comes up with. and where that lawyer instructs him to go. you mentioned that one way street of loyalty that the former president -- you have got to wonder about the people who were very close, who did the most open, vociferous defending, we are they feel like they stand right now, especially, if, like rudy giuliani, they seem to be in a bit of trouble. >> and who is the man next to him? this bernie kerik? >> yeah, bernie kerik, the former new york city police commissioner who has been helping rudy giuliani in terms of offering advice and connecting with people. the bottom line is, everybody out here is staring hard right now at this, the first of many deadlines, and expecting donald trump to fold it up here and go in and make his peace with things, at least for the moment, and here we are on tuesday. one thing to remember and all of this, and all of the discussion we are having -- every one of these days moves us closer to the election and raises constantly the question, can you get through all this to get anything meaningful before that comes around in terms of what voters will know what really happened and what the jury might decide -- >> so important. and thank, you tom foreman. also, there is some new reporting tonight, sarah, they are reporting in the new york times, that former president donald trump will now headline a 100,000 dollar per person fund-raiser for rudy giuliani's legal defense on september 7th. so, a new date to keep in mind. we know he is in some real financial peril about that. the fact that he is hosting it, though, at this, well, costly amount, he's telling you is maybe there is a scratching of the back that is happening? >> i believe so. i think he knows that if rudy giuliani were to flip that that would be disastrous for him and his legal case. and so, what does he want to do? he wants to help him find those legal fees. we have seen him do this before, even with walt nada, in the classified documents case, his body man, and he's being represented by trump lawyer because he wants to ensure that he is telling his side of the story that is favorable to trump. we saw that happen in the january six committee with cassidy hutchinson, a star witness out of those hearings. and she had a trump lawyer. they were telling her to not recall events that happened that she did very well recall. and so, what did she do? she did the right thing, which was which lawyers, so, that way she was defending her best interests and not trump's best interests. >> when you look at this, gene rossi, this is, essentially, one of the things that, i can imagine, is going to make the prosecutors raise their eyebrows on something and say, that is interesting. so, your codefendant in this important case in fulton county's a fund-raiser for it? and there is also the bond agreement that you cannot actually talk about the facts of the case? is this going to make you nervous? >> as a defense attorney, makes me very nervous. as a prosecutor -- >> -- >> salivating. i >> knew it! i knew it -- water -- go ahead. >> the reason is this. you go to trial -- and what is a jury going to hear? they are going to hear that all of these people sitting together at the table are being funded by the league guy, donald trump. and there is probably going to be a joint defense agreement, which can be inquired upon, and then cross-examination. so, these fundraising activities in the joint defense agreements, they are good for the defendants to some point. but when you get to trial, and where the rubber meets the road in front of the jury, they are big negatives for the defense, potentially. >> real quick, andy mccabe, does this make you, as an investigator say, well, there is something more to follow? >> absolutely, absolutely. it is going to be tougher to split away some of those codefendants who are now being paid for by the main guy. it's tougher to split them away is cooperators. but, as you said, gene, you've got a raft of information to use on cross examination here. basically, fani willis is trying to prove the existence of a criminal enterprise. it is a lot easier to do that when one guy sitting in the middle is paying everybody's bill. >> good point. thank you so much, everyone. all eyes are indeed on fani willis as former president donald trump and 18 codefendants are facing a friday at noon deadline to surrender in the georgia 2020 election subversion case, but could the case -- there is a big question -- could actually outlast even the prosecutor? 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( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) constant contact delivers the marketing tools your small business needs to keep up, excel, and grow. constant contact. helping the small stand tall. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. huh. how long have you been tracking our car's value with carvana? just, like, 7 months. should we sell it? we hold... hold... silver vans are going for more right now, should we... hold... our low mileage is paying off. you think we should... hold... depreciation is really heating up you think... hoooold!!! hooold! hooold. hold! we just dipped 2.5%! hooooooold!!! now!!!! i'm on it. i'm, on it. already sold to carvana. go to carvana and track your car's value today. >> well, it was a busy day at fulton county jail in georgia as multiple codefendants of donald trump have officially surrendered. but as of tonight, to have actually turned themselves in, including former trump lawyer john eastman, who advised the former president on ways to stop congress from certifying the 2020 election results. we also have scott hall, who allegedly was involved in a breach of voting machines. he also surrendered. now, 17, that means, are left. and that includes donald trump who is going to turn himself in, we are told, thursday. i want to bring in senior political commentator and former lieutenant governor of georgia, jack duncan. nice to see you this evening. all eyes are on georgia and they haven't been, frankly, for a very long. time i want to take a step back, away from the nuances of all of this as it began to unfold. had donald trump -- had he accepted the election result as free and fair, had he not been searching for that 11,780 votes -- would it have been a cakewalk, really, for republicans in the 2024 election? and all of the distractions, save, of course for the classified documents scandal, to have been avoided? >> the answer is yes. and, to make it even more painful, if he would have just run a normal campaign, and talked about all the things he did during the presidency and the conservative leadership that -- conservative governors instead of creating a three ring circus, joe biden literally hung out in his basement and beat donald trump. so, it's even painful. but i think there is some even more second going on from these 18 other co-indicted individuals, and 30 unnamed coconspirators. can you imagine the conversation happening around their kitchen tables, where their spouses are asking them, now, tell me again why we are going to cash in our entire life savings and sort of reputation, because of, what? something you don't even really believe happened? i can't imagine how difficult those conversations are. >> that's an interesting notion. one is the indictment of just how impactful money is in a defense to mount against the united states government or -- state. but it's also the notion of, all of this, and the premise and may not even be that they believed that what was happening. it was essentially just a tactic to delay or figure something else out. that is a steep hill to climb in a defense, if you did not even believe what you thought was being said. on another notion, though, you know that there are -- used to be a lot of momentum, geoff duncan -- to try to ask the da, fani willis -- there's even been some republicans promising to ease a new law in your state of georgia that created an actual commission to remove, to discipline prosecutors, to force her from office. what do you make of the efforts that are happening there? is this really tailored specifically to fani willis? was there some larger issue? or is this an attempt to further that notion of a weaponized government? >> i was not part of the general assembly when they passed this law. but i think it was really a cumulative law to create oversight on district attorney statewide. so, it's not just two specific to one individual as i understand. up until this point, i don't think there has been much complaining about the process that fani willis has gone through. i certainly experienced her staff's preparedness when i testified in front of the special grand jury and then the grand jury. it was an extremely focused group of individuals. and i felt no signs of partisanship from start to finish throughout that entire process. this just continues to be a painful experience for republicans. i think this is part of our painful learning experience, quite honestly, in healing. we are going to have to accept the fact that donald trump did not get cheated out of this victory. we just simply lost. and, unfortunately, we are going to continue to pay the price over and over and over again. i do think this debate coming up for more without him being there is a really good opportunity for the other eight that are going to be there, and we are certainly going to separate the haves from the have-nots, those that are openly able to admit that don't trump is lying to us and we need to move past him and we need to be joe biden -- and then you are going to have the have-nots, in my opinion, that are going to show up there until try to pacify the 35% that, no matter what happens, they're going to support donald trump. he could literally be locked up in prison with two ankle guards or to ankle bracelets and they would still support him and vote for him. it is a 65% of republicans that are still approachable that we need to focus around our efforts on. >> you talk about the haves and have-nots. some are saying they have courage and the have not courage in this instance, because he obviously is going to be the big major elephant in the room. because a new litmus test, as you can imagine, has been formed, whether it is about a potential pardon, whether it is conversations about prying into the wet personalization of the government, whether you want to throw out the baby with the bathwater on the count of the lawsuits led by jack smith in the -- eight is going to come up. what do you think that there are going to be candidates on that stage who are going to actually address the substantive policy issues or really be allowed to? because obviously it picks up the oxygen, even in the rooms that he is not in. >> yeah. the haves and have-nots that i am referring to is have just god given leadership abilities, are able to stay above the fray, and not only explain why donald trump is allowed to do what he is doing but also to explain their articulate plan to take joe biden out in the 2024 election, but also how we are going to improve this country at the border, public safety -- when i pick up the newspaper and i read publicly traded companies are having to massively adjust their earnings reports because of lawlessness that is breaking out in stealing stuff in their stores, we have got to do something. and i believe conservative approaches are actually going to help that situation. but the haves and have-nots is just genuinely the ship. look, what is happening down here in fulton county's real. this is a 48 against one game. there are 28 individuals that have nothing that they can get from donald trump. i guess i just heard maybe rudy giuliani is going to get a shallow fund-raiser to help make a dent in the over million dollars worth of -- he's not since -- donald trump. but the reality is that there is nothing that donald trump can do for. them but i have got to imagine that as you see play out today, david schaffer is trying to take this to a federal court. he's trying to explain that -- lawyers were the ones who fed him the working order of how these fake electors and other folks try to point fingers -- but one thing that nobody is, doing laura coates, nobody is pointing to the actual. facts nobody is opening up sydney powell's kraken folder -- where two years into this and i've yet to have a single person show me something other than a facebook post show me why the election was rigged. >> that was why the courts, you are entertaining the -- demanding, they didn't get, it as we have been talking about, being promised, in some way to have some conclusive evidence in some respect -- that is just not there. but it has legs nonetheless. that is part of the conversation, undoubtedly, at the debate and going forward. it's nice to talk to, you geoff duncan. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> you know, we are actually just a few hours away from the first debate in the republican primary season in wisconsin. donald trump says that he is not going. so, the real question is, if in fact he does not attend, which he says he won't, who stands to benefit the most from his absence? 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[whip sound] take the first step to see if your small business qualifies. >> all right, everyone. in less than 24 hours -- the main event -- i'm talking about the first republican presidential debate. but, of course, the main attraction won't actually be at that debate. donald trump is not expected to take the stage, emphasis on the word expected, with these eight candidates. with me now, time national correspondent molly ball and former adviser to george w. bush and john mccain, mark mckinnon, the man with a hat. -- i use the term expected, molly. because he is not expected to show up. but -- and but -- and but we all know that we can insert the words here as to why we think the words things can change. but how about his absence -- if it really does happen -- how would it affect the really entire dynamic of this debate? >> look, i think, obviously, trump hangs over this whole debate in a sort of -- spirit regardless of his physical attendance. it is clear that he is the central issue in this republican primary. and it is not even really his fault. it is the other candidates who have made him the central issue in this republican primary. and so he's going to be the topic of a lot of discussion, even if he is not there. and we don't expect him to be there. we don't expect a last minute sort of cannonball into the pool. but he is still going to be a topic of discussion, something all the other candidates are going to have to talk about. because he -- him, his person, his issues -- are still the central issue of this republican primary. >> you know, interestingly enough, to molly ball's point, mark mckinnon, some might say the reason he is not showing up, in fact, is because he does not necessarily have to answer anyone on the stage. it kind of made it easier for him to really not show up and appear, because he's not going to get a hostile crowd. maybe, of course, christie, and asa hutchinson to name a few. but let's just say that trump actually does show up, mark. if he does show up, who do you think suffers the most with him actually being present? >> everybody on the stage. i mean, he will just go -- >> [laughter] -- >> but something occurred to me tonight that, in thinking about why he is not going to be there -- i mean, obviously, it's a political consideration that he is making. and i have worked for presidents running for reelection. and obviously, he is not running -- technically, he's running for reelection, having lost the last one. but they never wanted to debate. they always think it's beneath them. and they don't see any of advantage to. it that's obviously his political calculation. but i bet his lawyers reached a big sigh of relief. because, think about this. you've got two former prosecutors on that stage in chris christie and asa hutchinson. and you can bet that they would be serving him some of volleys right down the middle on the legal cases. and we know that trump is inclined to talk about things that he should not be talking about legally. so, i will bet his lawyers are very happy that he is not going to be on that stage, not considering what his political consultants think, but the lawyers, i'm sure, are very happy. >> consider that one moment in otherwise dark times. the attorneys of somebody with four competing indictments -- mentioned. molly, you have a new cover story for a time where you write, in part, the actual -- the cover and the rollercoaster of it a really interesting to look at. you've got francis suarez and the others in the background there, those on the stage -- it's as, with just a few days before the first republican presidential debate, he is not even planning to show up. and why should he? he is running away with this thing as rivals flounder and leap to his defense after each successive criminal indictment. so, i wonder, are all of these troubles going to dominate the conversation? and, if they are, is the litmus test of royalty and how one addresses it, weaponization wise, or, of course, pardoning -- of course, that's out of the state context -- is that the central issue here that will take a lot of space here? >> it's a really good question. i think a lot of it is up to the moderators, of course. they get to decide what the candidates talk about to some extent. we all know how it is with politicians. they don't necessarily answer the question. they talk about what they want to talk about. however, to this point, what voters have wanted to hear about, a lot of it is trump. and that is why these candidates have ended up in the place that they have, is because they are trying to meet republican voters where they are. and republican base voters very much want to hear this message reinforced about loyalty to trump. and so, when -- and thank you for the plug of my article -- i think it is a good summation as a snapshot of where the race is at this point. and it's true. trump has barely lifted a muscle in his current run for president. and he is very much running away with this thing. and a lot of it is because everyone else has been defending him. they have been the ones who have stepped up and have talked about trump because they know it is what the voters want to hear about. and when they talk about him, it has been mostly to defend him. so, it will be very interesting to hear if this is a turning point in the campaign, if these other candidates see this as an opportunity to change the conversation, turn the conversation through something, else change the subject, or if they are still going to be talking about what it is that they think voters wanted to hear. because, to this point, what they have not voters have wanted to hear has been, mainly, a pro-trump message, a message about trump's victimization rather than a message about trump's guilt. >> mark, people are often obviously visual, and the entire television medium is about that. and a debate no exception -- fox has now just released the podium lineup. and here is a bingo card you might not have had six months ago, maybe even three months ago. center stage is governor ron desantis and also vivek ramaswamy. what do you make of where everyone is standing? >> that's interesting. the net net of this is that everyone on that stage understands that this is their first, best and maybe last opportunity to really make an impression and change the equation. the fact that desantis and vivek ramaswamy are in the middle is really interesting. because i think that they -- debates are all about expectations, political expectations. they are not judged like a college. debate is not a forensic debate. you don't get points. it's all about how you perform against expectations. now, ramaswamy and desantis have completely different presentation, which is that ramaswamy has a very low expectations. people don't know him. they are unfamiliar with him. he is doing well in the polls recently because he has got a pretty aggressive media campaign. but his expectations are low. people do not expect much from him. and he is very confident. he is very good on stage. he's very good in front of a camera. so, i think he will exceed expectations. ron desantis has high expectations. he was the guy who came in and was supposed to be the giant killer and hasn't gotten all the traction he was supposed to. but his expectations for this debate are still very high. so, he has got a greater challenge, really. >> with that lyrics? i want to elective me, someone to the right, here i am stuck in the middle with you? there is some room with you. mark mckinnon and molly ball, thank you so much. >> -- >> thank you. >> you may know elon musk controls x, known as twitter not too long ago, and also tesla and space x and starlink -- but what you might not know is how much your government relies on him, and of, course his technology. it has all been raised in this explosive new exposé. and we are going to get right into it next. ♪ma ma ma ma♪ [clears throut] for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops with two times more menthol per drop*, and the powerful rush of vicks vapors for fast-acting relief you can feel. vicks vapocool drops. fast relief you can feel. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. ( ♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. >> all right, here is a pop quiz. what comes to mind when you think of elon musk? for many, of course, he is the owner of x, formerly known as twitter. but of course, that's the tip of the iceberg. his most recent venture -- tesla, of course. he has spacecraft and rocket manufacturer a spacex and broadband internet system starlink. then, there's his recently launched a i focused company x a.i.. he's also of course, known, increasingly so, for his erratic behavior. and this has the u.s. government nervous. but the question for many is why? well, ronan farrow in a new piece for the new yorker, notes that the u.s. has grown overly reliant on musk's technology, putting them at the mercy of, well, he's impulsive behavior. for example, starlink is being used to support critical communications on the front lines of the war in ukraine. but according to the new yorkers new yorker's ronan farrow when pentagon official says he has spoken, personally, with vladimir putin. ronan farrow also appeared earlier on "cnn tonight" and detailed musk's critical role in ukraine. >> the fact that elon musk has this network of satellites and mobile state stations called starlink was a godsend. and the people who fund-raise for that and helped get those units to ukraine did not think at the outset, they told me, of the fact that elon musk was going to have so much control. and what we found as that conflict ground on is that he really was able to flip a switch and use geofencing, cordoned off areas where, for instance, russia did not want troops advancing. so, his role became very political very fast. >> i want to bring in cnn media analyst and axios senior media reporter sarah fischer. the new yorker article goes into great detail, sara fischer about this reliance, and the big question people have -- especially when looking at one of the quotes -- we are ronan farrow's article talks about the degree of dependency that the u.s. now has on musk -- are we into deep here? >> we are in an unprecedented, situation laura coates. typically, the u.s. government is not the go between an allied force in ukraine -- a nato ally -- and a private u.s. citizen. we have never really experienced that type of situation before. now, of course, the starlink example is absolutely critical. and it puts the u.s., probably, in its biggest bind as it pertains to this go between role. but there have been other instances in which elon musk has forced the government to take action on certain things related to technology. you think about autonomous vehicles. this is a huge priority for the biden administration. the biden administration had to really twist the arm of elon musk, giving him tax credits to ensure that the tesla charging stations would be applicable to a bunch of different auto vehicles. so, you can see the different circumstances in which the government has had to play ball with elon musk. we have never had some sort of private citizen holding that much power over our government. >> musk has capitalize, successfully, i might add, on a lot of markets that are important to the economy, and to the country. and you don't have, it really, the comparable or corresponding regulation. and so, did this really go too far in that they are relying so overtly, frankly, on one person? >> if you take a look at the u.s. government in the past couple of decades, laura coates, very little has been done to support critical infrastructure. and that also includes critical infrastructure to support national security goals. and so when you think about elon musk being the one to have to step in to provide this critical communication vehicle, starlink -- i mean, that could be thought of as the u.s. government not doing enough to step up and play its role. same thing again for autonomous vehicles, even space -- elon musk taking a leadership role in advancing the u.s. is space agenda there. and so i think it's one of the situations where the u.s. government is kind of at its own fault here. they have not done enough -- we have not done enough as a nation to -- position -- really have more leverage over an individual entrepreneur like this. >> a real catch-22, quite frankly, for all of us. sara fischer, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> i have a question for you. have you -- well, you probably have -- its number one now. have you ever heard of this song? >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> it struck a chord with many conservatives and it's now at the tip-top of the billboard singles chart. i will tell you how it got there next. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ (dadad) we got our subaru forester wilderness to discover r all of the placs that make us feel something more. 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