as the verdict was read, she showed noviceble reaction but faces the possibility of decades in prison. her attorneys say they have already started working on her appeal. this was a case that relied on the testimony of four women who came forward to describe what they say happened to them when they were underaged girls. the women alleged they were sexually abused by jeffrey ens epstein and say maxwell sometimes facilitated and participated the abuse. epstein died of suicide of sexually abusing underaged girls and running a sex trafficking ring. one of the most prominent accusers didn't testify in maxwell's trail tweeted today i hope this isn't the end, another step in justice being served. maxwell did not act alone. i have faith they will be. thank you for being here and your excellent coverage. count two where maxwell was found not guilty? >> we knew the jurors were tripped up on something discussing something behind the scenes and our only glimpse was were there jury notes? they asked a couple questions related to that enticement count and asked for what the definition of enticement was. they asked for the transcripts for jane, who that charge was regarding and they also asked for travel logs. they asked for testimony from two of the former epstein pilots to be sent back to them, as well. so in all, they asked for more than a dozen transcripts of testimony. almost a third of the witnesses. clearly the jurors took their jobs seriously and doing through everything they heard in the trial that started at the end of november and i already mentioned virginia. are there other jeffrey epstein accusers that are speaking out tonight? >> one is named annie farmer who testified in the trial against maxwell, which is such a difficult thing to do to go and face a person who you say abused you. i want to read you her statement in full because it's so powerful. she says quote, i am so relieved and grateful that the jury recognized the pattern of brett tory behavior that maxwell engaged in for years and found her guilty of the crimes. she's caused hurt to many more women than the few of us that had the chance to testify in the courtroom. i hope this verdict brings solace to all who need it, and nobody is above the law. even those with great power and privilege will be held accountable when they sexually abuse the young. a step for justice. many felt a devastating blow when epstein died of suicide in 2019. >> they thought that would mean there would be no accountability, it would end there but the inquiry did not end there. what are you hearing from maxwell's defense team at this time? are they shocked by the verdict? >> they said they were disappointed and as expected, working on an appeal now. they feel maxwell will be vindicated. >> thank you so much. i want to turn to joey jackson and former federal and state prosecutor ellie, both cnn legal analyst. you-all know precisely what is at stake in these charges and cases and convictions. ellie, take us through the charges. maxwell was found guilty on all counts except two, which is enticing a minor to travel, to engage in illegal sex acts. why was this the count they akitakit quitted on? >> what is clear is the jury did credit and believe these victims. their testimony was powerful and believable. the enticement count is one that ended up in the not guilty verdict and it could be the jury got caught up on what does it mean to entice? cause somebody to doincentive, financial or other. it was jeffrey epstein doing the enticing and maxwell was the transporter and accomplice. either way, i want to be clear the fact that that one count ended up with a not guilty verdict will have no impact on the bottom line sentence. she is looking at a heavy sentence and justifiably so given the evidence. >> of course, they did ask about that enticement definition. one of the notes for the judge. this was an issue in that respect. joey, look, you're a defense attorney and a long line of defendants in the past few months, let alone year, you've seen that they have all testified in their own defense. they have chosen to do so. ghislaine maxwell chose not to testify saying at one point the prosecution had not met its burden and therefore she was not -- it was not needed for her to now testify. did she make the wrong call even knowing, even knowing, joey, it her right not to do so? was it the wrong decision? >> that's a great point. good evening to you and ellie. it's always interesting in retrospect when you assess and examine what could have been done differently and what went wrong. at that point in tile whme when decided not to testify, the judge asked her did she say no your honor, she said no, they have not. that's the government proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt. at that point, her defense team felt confident. remember what they were doing. the defense was relying upon an attack of the memories of these particular then girls, now women in addition to attacking their motivations, which they did via cross examination. the defense being very confident the attacks on those particular victims would bear fruit particularly given they were decades old allegations and so they made as a defense a calculated assessment not to put their client on the stand. last point, whatever you put a client on the stand, it's not about whether the government has proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt but can we believe the particular defendant? were they credible? did they answer questions to anyone's satisfaction? when you put someone on the stand, it's not only about the narrative she would have had to indicate to the jury she was smitten by epstein and just as well as really taking advantage of him like everybody else was but she would be subject to cross examination and i think that would have been a lot to overcome so the final analysis, i just don't know that that would have made the difference at the end of the day the government had the goods and i think the jury spoke to that today. >> and the jury did have, what, 16 notes overall, ellie? over the course of your deliberation but you know, as joey indicated, they tried to poke holes of the credibility and delayed reporting. i know i've prosecuted these cases and people with delayed reporting, there are a number of reasons. if it was a minor or the jury didn't deny there was lack of credibility but they didn't seem to buy this scrape goat defense i'm only here as ghislaine maxwell because jeffrey epstein is not and referenced the bible saying since the beginning of time, eve has been blamed for the apple given to adam. they didn't buy any of that, ellie. >> yeah, laura, this jury did i think what we want juries to do. they took their time. they were careful. they were meticulous, they went back through the evidence. they clearly went count by count, element by element. that's all we ask our juries to do. this is what we call an empty chair case when you have a looming presence over the whole trial of course here that's jeffrey enstopstein who is not physically present. the prosecution argued she was his right hand. none of this could have worked without maxwell. she's an accomplice and liable. i don't think her defense of saying she was a victim or unwitting was plausible. laura and joe, you know juries are told you can use common sense, folks. you can use the good everyday judgment you use out there in the real world and i think it's absolutely unbelievable and i'm plausible ghislaine maxwell was a victim or didn't realize what is going on. >> what is always this case is the idea of when a woman is involved in facilitating the abuse of another woman, a young girl at that, you have this impression in life, right? you can imagine somebody that's a minor looking for refuge, for somebody else, the adult in the room we talk about and that this person was come come police -- complicit in the crime has a different layer or the idea that this person had a role in it. this person was grooming these young women, these young girls. i hate to use the word women at this point. they are women at this point. at that point they were girls. she's facing up to 65 years in prison right now. she's already 60 years old. if they were to follow the basic guidelines, could show be in jail for the rest of her life or do you think there is a possibility that because of that taper earlier of one of the victims, are there others she could possibly talk about with the prosecutors to be more lenient in her sentence or is it a done deal for her? >> those are great points. the first thing is when you speak to the issue of her facilitating and aiding and grooms goes to the egregiousness of the conduct and that resonated clearly with the jury. we can't allow you to enable. we can't allow you to facilitate. we can't allow you to set the conditions and standards under which this will happen because we'll hold you accountable. to the issue of punishment, we know in the federal system, they have that grid. right? you have the offense level and you have the criminal history level. the offense level is going to be steep. what am i speaking about? most people, laura, ellie, we know when you look at crimes, you look at the statutory maximum. what does the law allow at the end of the day for a particular defendant to get? but then what you do is the norm is what the guidelines sentence would otherwise dictate. it not going to be lost on the court that this offense is agregre egregious. her fence level is significant and she will get a number of years in jail at the same time litigation. she doesn't have any criminal history et cetera. so i think that there would be an opportunity not for her to spend the rest of her life in jail but at the end of the day, that she will get significant and stiff time for these just, you know, just egregious crimes. >> ellie, what about that point, as well. the idea of we often think about people who are getting leniency from the government because they have co-operated in someone else's crime. i can throw the back at you and ask for the maximum penalty allowable as joey talked about or scratch my back, i'll scratch yours. she's the number two, though, it seems at this point in time. if enstopstein is number one, i there anyone higher? the jury heard this who is who list of people who are passengers on the plane, in the news you hear about people who are the who is who rubbing elbows of people who were associates of jeffrey epstein. i mean, are others likely to be implicated in someway now that this conviction has taken place? >> well, laura, as you say, whenever you're cooperating someone as a prosecutor, you want to co-operate up. ghislaine maxwell was number two. the question as to whether maxwell might want to cooperate, that's a two-way street. does maxwell want to try to save herself. she may wait and see what her sentence is. she's looking at a major hit that will keep her into jail for most or possibly all of the rest of her life. on the flip side, does the southern district want to cooperate? i worked at the southern district. when we cooperate people, us usually you want them early. it rare, possible but rare to cooperate someone after they have gone through a jury trial and been convicted. what can she give me? she better be able to deliver important cases against important people and she has to be ready to come clean about everything. cooperation is all or nothing in the sdny. ultimately, it's unlikely we see a cooperation match here, possible but unlikely. >> final point. joey, will the appeal that she now says she's going to file and already working on, they think it will ultimately be vindicated for her. what do you think? is that going to loom large? is that something the prosecution should fear at all right now? >> yes, so two quick points and one involves ellie. a client was convicted of one particular count and said listen, in the event you want to stay out of jail, you can give us other people are looking at and we'll certainly make that recommendation and so i don't think that, you know, this story may be over yet. the same deal may be given to maxwell. here is why i say that. i'll go back briefly to the point i made when i said hey, the judge said do you want to testify? she said they haven't proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt. she was all in. she was fighting. now circumstances have changed so if the government has an appetite to go after other people, she may be more willing to state her peace. on the appeal, we know the appeal is not just you don't like the verdict. the appeal is what mistakes or errors did the judge make that would otherwise indicate the jury heard evidence and information they shouldn't have. that gives you the basis of appeal and that certainly every defense attorney makes a record with respect to judicial errors. they will take that and appeal that whether it bears fruit, it's too early to tell at this particular time. >> you've been hearing from the law firm of coats, honig and jackson. appreciate talking to all of you. it happens to come first, c. nothing personal. just telling you about that. gentlemen -- >> you deserve it. [ laughter ] >> they'll give me a hard time after the show about that and go re really laura coates? appreciate it. so much more to get to today, of course, and a record number of covid cases in the country. for now, the second day in a row and critics are arguing the cdc's latest guidance could make things worse. stay with us. helps keep baby's skin drier and healthier. so every touch will protect like the first. pampers we're having a baby, so the new law came at a perfect time. for less than 30 a month, the whole family is covered. i love my job and it pays really well. there's just no health coverage. for $182 a month, i found the perfect plan. all that stress about coverage just went away. for $14 a month, my plan covers my meds, vision and dental. now, more people can get financial assistance. what you pay depends in part on how much you make. new law. lower prices. more people qualify. at healthcare.gov [upbeat acoustic music throughout] [upbeat acoustic music throughout] ♪ if sweat is your body's natural way of cooling itself down, then condensation is a beer's natural way of saying “drink me.” we're a different kind of dentistry. one who believes in doing anything it takes to make dentistry work for your life. so we offer a complete exam and x-rays free to new patients without insurance - everyday. plus, patients get 20% off their treatment plan. we're on your corner and in your corner every step of the way. because your anything is our everything. aspen dental. anything to make you smile. book today at aspendental.com, walk in, or call 1-800-aspendental. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event. the cdc predicts more than 44,000 new covid deaths over the next four weeks as the u.s. reports another record high day of cases. this coming as the biden administration's top doctors are on the defense about the cdc cutting the recommended isolation time in half for some people who catch covid. alexandria field has the latest. >> this was the moment we needed to make that decision. >> reporter: facing the biggest covid surge we've ever seen, the cdc director defending the decision to cut isolation time in half for infected people asymptomatic or symptoms getting better. >> it had a lot to do with what we thought people would be able to tolerate. if we can get them to isolate, we want to make sure they're isolating in the first five days when they are maximumly infectious. >> reporter: 85 to 90% of transmission occurs in the first five days of symptom onset. still, the new guidance is drawing fierce debate among health experts. >> there is absolutely no data i'm aware about with the omicron variant that supports people coming out of isolation five days after they were first diagnosed with the virus. >> you either shut down the society, which no one wants to do or you try and get a situation where you can safely get people back particularly to critical jobs without having them be out for a full ten days. >> reporter: long testing lines are still snaking across the country. new cases are skyrocketing to numbers never seen before. deaths and hospitalizations key indicators at this moment are also climbing but not as quickly. >> are we seeing lower hospitalization rates because omicron is less virulent or lower hospitalization rates because we do have a considerable amount of the population that isbooster shots younger teens may be weeks away says the cdc while younger children remain the least vaccinated age group in the country. >> the vast majority of children ineffected with covid have mild infection but you have to be aware that that does put your child at risk for hospitalization and puts your child at risk for transmitting to other people in the classroom. >> reporter: washington d.c. schools now requiring a negative test for teachers and students to come back to class. with the peak of this surge likely still ahead of us, dr. fauci again warning people to take precautions ahead of another new year. >> if your plans are to go to a 40 to 50 person new year's eve party with all the bells and whistles and everybody hugging and kissing and wishing each other a happy new year, i would strongly recommend that this year we do not do that. >> reporter: alexandria field, cnn, new york. i want to turn now to michael osterholm, the director for infectious disease and policy and author of the book "deadliest enemy, our war against killer germs." dr. osterholm, thank you for being here tonight. i want to ask you dr. fauci left off. you heard dr. fauci say large scale new year's eve parties are a no, no. what do you say to folks feeling crushed by this pandemic trying to do all the right things, they're vaccinated, boosted, wearing the masks, social distances but don't have the reward of really normalcy for new year's eve. what is your comment to them tonight? >> well, i don't want you to get infected and potentially die so that's a good starter there. second of all, is the fact that what we're seeing happen right now is really a historic proportion. not just with this pandemic but frankly, throughout the last 100 years. the transmission we're seeing is simply remarkable. what we're concerned about is while omicron may cause less severe illness, overall, the sheer number of people infected could still overwhelm the health care systems. and on top of that, we're seeing right now in the workplace setting 10 to 20% of people potentially being infected and out of work which includes health care workers. the last thing you want to do is get infected now and infected in a way you need health care. so please don't get infected. the second point to make is we have new and powerful drugs that will be coming soon. they're not here yet. but, you know, three months from now getting infected could mean something very different than it does now. postponing this infection doesn't mean you might not get it some day but it could mean the difference again between having a life threatening infection and one that basically is relatively mild. >> so very important point. i think people obviously in the urge and with their eagerness to return to whatever normal looked like once before, i find people may be flat footed or resting thinking you know what? we've got vaccines. i'll hearing about the lack of severity and hospitalization not being its peak as it was a year ago but still it's not a time to relax. we're in the midst of a pandemic. glad you mentioned that. a cdc forecast is predicting 44 thousz new covid deaths over the next four weeks. i mean, 44,000 new deaths over a four-week period? i mean, this is two years into a pandemic where we have vaccines. this is astonishing to think about. >> well, first of all, let's remember the backdrop we're dealing with. we have 90 million americans that haven't been vaccinated. we have 130 million americans who were vaccine willing who went out and got two doses but didn't get this critical third dose yet and so right there, we have a lot of wood for this coronavirus forest fire to burn and we have to remember that. the second thing i think that is really em poor tar important in understanding where we're at in the pandemic is we don't know how much of the deaths we're seeing or how many of the deaths we're seeing are due to delta yet and how much are due to omicron and that's going to be a very important factor of going forward in terms of how many deaths occur with omicron to get to that number that the cdc estimated. maybe it will be lower. maybe it will be higher. and we just -- >> wait, doctor, on that point, i want to ask you on that point because i hear that a lot. i know in terms of our discussions about whether it's this variant or that, it's important to know what the impact is. in terms of what it really means, does it really have a difference or make would be depending if it is delta hurting people or omicron? is it the sailme impact nonetheless? >> not really. imagine you have 1,000 cases with delta and of those 100 will be severely ill. i have 1,000 cases of omicron but only 10 of them will be severely ill. that makes a big difference. the problem is what happens if it's not 1,000 cases of omicron, it's 10,000 cases of omicron because of the infectiousness. then you're in the same soup as delta. we're looking at this very carefully and trying to figure out what will be the contribution and in new york right now, we're all eyes on the country are focused on new york, which has become the epicenter of this current rollout of omicron in the u.s. we're trying to figure out the rise in hospital rates right now, which are occurring and we want to know is that omicron orr -- or is that delta? if it's omicron, that could be a bad sign. you know how many people are becoming infected? it will be a matter of weeks before we have an entire viral blizzard across this country. >> now, you mentioned earlier the idea of drugs being on the way. medical opportunities and pills, et cetera on the way to aid in the treatment of covid-19. tell me more about those. >> well, we have several drugs, most notably two that were licensed in the last two weeks and one i think most people are positive about is the pfizer drug that we think if taken very early into the course of an illness with somebody with underlying health conditions that could put them at risk for more serious illness may reduce the likelihood of having this serious illness and another drug we've had for sometime, remdesivir actually with more recent studies shows much more effect in also doing that same thing as the pfizer drug does. now, take that in combination and we had more of it, we don't have much of eaither, we could turn this pandemic. if i could use an example of those in the business for a long time, hiv used to be a fatal disease. today in many parts of the world where you have adequate drugs, people live long, healthy lives with hiv. so drugs can be very important and in this case in the short term, we could possibly turn this pandemic into a much less serious event for people even if they did get infected. we want to prevent infections in the first place. that's our goal. if you can't prevent them, these drugs could be real game changer down the road. >> important analogy. d osterholm, the cdc is defending the push back it's getting to cut isolation in half for those asymptomatic but many are saying it's politics driving the decision and maybe a play for the midterms. did they follow the science or following the elections? what do you say? >> let me make it clear as someone that pushed hard on this administration over the course of the last three weeks to do what they've done, i'm basing it on science and the reality of what we're up against, not against any kind of political or economic issues. right now, imagine hospitals. if we lose 20% of your workers because they have a mild illness for which they are going to be out ten days, we will have hospital beds with critically ill patients sitting there without seeing anybody for eight-hour shifts. that would be tragedy. wait until you can't get enough fire and police. wait until you can't get enough of the infrastructure, critical people we need. what this is an imperfect solution to a terribly imperfect problem. i commend them. i know it's -- i still would like to see the masking done differently and testing done differently, but what they did was bit the bullet because the next four to eight weeks will be unlike anything we've seen in this country and when you have most of the people out sick, we're seeing the big box retail stores closing large establishments. they can't get enough people to come to work because so many are sick. that's what the cdc is trying to address. they're not trying to lightening the time period of when you might be quarantined or isolated with more transmission and many of the people who are critical of this frankly are people who come from what i consider the academic world where the idea is surely great but as former secretary of defense said, you don't get to go to war what you want but what you got. >> well said. it always a cost benefit analysis and we don't live in perfect times. thank you for your clarification and for what you've done. thank you so much. appreciate it, doctor. >> thank you. you know, it's a pandemic within a pandemic and something needs to be done but there is novak s no vaccine for abuse and when people are home and isolated, there is no one to help. i'll make my case, next. ♪ ♪ ♪i'm so defensive,♪ ♪i got bongos thumping in my chest♪ ♪and something tells me they don't beat me♪ ♪ ♪ ♪he'd better not take the ring from me.♪ (swords clashing) -had enough? -no... arthritis. here. aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength? reduces inflammation? thank the gods. don't thank them too soon. kick pain in the aspercreme. this is elodia. she's a recording artist. 1 of 10 million people that comcast has connected to affordable internet in the last 10 years. and this is emmanuel, a future recording artist, and one of the millions of students we're connecting throughout the next 10. through projectup, comcast is committing $1 billion so millions more students, past... and present, can continue to get the tools they need to build a future of unlimited possibilities. vaccines save lives and not just from the pandemic of covid-19. because of the shadow pandemic of domestic violence. for some of you, a lockdown may be an inconvenience, running out of shows to bing or activities to entertain your stir crazy kids but for far too many others, a lockdown means running out of places to hide from the abuse, with no place to go when schools close, no mondaandatory reporter or front line person like a teacher or physician under normal circumstances would notice a bruise or telltale sign of abuse. no direct contact or referrals to child protective services. no workplace for a co-worker to see something and say something. the national commission on covid-19 in criminal justice reports that domestic violence incidents increased 8.1% after jurisdictions imposed pandemic related lockdown orders in this country. the u.n. says 45% of women around the world reported that they or a woman they know experienced a form of violence against women since covid-19. abused, denied basic needs. denied communication. almost 1 in 4 women said that covid-19 has made things worse in terms of how safe they feel at home. as a prosecutor, i prosecuted so many domestic violence and child assault cases. i've seen what a child looks like when they've been starved nearly to debtath by their own parent. i've watched women and men for that matter still bleeding from their eyes as they tried to look into mine, physically unable to hold up their heads or even shake my hand. and that's when someone was watching. and could report it in time. you know, president biden often speaks of the kids sitting near fast food drive-throughs hoping to access broadband to participate in distance learning. >> the 21st century in america, no parent should have to sit outside a fast food restaurant to be able to hook up to the internet so their child can do their homework online. >> how about the thousands of children totally unaccounted for while schools were closed? are they safe now? people who were screaming at school boards because their kids are being asked to wear a mask. >> i've got to comfort everybody that comes at my kid with this stupid ridiculous mandate. >> no more masks! >> look right here. so as you can see, fists are now flying. all of this on live television. fists are flying. >> you are allowing child abuse. you are allowing child abuse. you are allowing child abuse. you are allowing child abuse. you are with your snotty little face, you're allowing it, as well. >> i wonder why they're pointing fingers about mask wearing. have they given any thought to what happens to abused children if schools shut down from an outbreak? distance learning is nothing compared to the prospect of children in need being out of reach. you know, ending this pandemic is about more than just stopping a contagion. it's also about doing what is right for the most vulnerable among us. we have three vaccines for covid-19. three. but there is novak vaccine aga what too many people are facing in the homes of your neighbors. perhaps in your own home. legally, and as a society, we have to do everything we can to stop domestic violence. and at a bear minimum, it starts with giving people somewhere to go, an economy able to employ someone without the financial means to currently escape their circumstances. it means refuge for a child and a concerned adult looking out for them. maybe just a meal and if my wearing a mask stops you from having to cover up a black eye, if my children must learn to annunciate through a mask from the comfort of a closeassroom someone else's kid can feel safe, if getting another shot in my arm keeps yours from being br broken, i will gladly do it for the rest of my life to save yours. >> next, to mandate vaccines on flights or not. leaders in this country can't seem to decide. so we'll make the arguments. the country's top infectious disease expert say as vaccine requirement for domestic travel is quote on the table. but dr. fauci cautions it's not necessary right now. joining me now, julia is now a cnn national security analyst and political commentator scott jennings is here, as well. i'm glad you're both here. what a very important conversation happening across this country as thousands of flights are being cancelled probably as we speak. juliette, let me begin with you. you say president biden should enact a vaccine requirement for domestic travel. why do you think so? >> i've been saying this since august and canada has done it. i want to take the emotions out why people are unvaccinated and listening to them and give the facts right now. the first is of course we novak nations work. if you're unvaccinated, you're ten times more likely to get infected and 20 times more likely to die from covid. we know that mandates work as we saw over the course of the summer. 92 to 97% compliance in most public and private institutions including the police forces that had been originally reluctant to do it. we know the united states government has an interest in pr protecting lives and the burden of covid as well as those infected is falling on us whether the closing of schools or hospitals getting rid of voluntariry operations. so that's just the facts that we want more people vaccinated and one way to do it is to deprive them and i'm quite honest about this, of a right -- excuse me, of a privilege that's not a right. they can do whatever they want. they have the freedom not to be vaccinated. if they want to take a flight, they need to be vaccinated. it seems simple. it's the united states government can enforce lines around the airport and the president should do it to get more of the unvaccinated to be vaccinated. this is what the purpose of mandates is. i'm sort of like, you know, i finished a long time ago worrying about the unvaccinated and their emotions and just looking at the facts out this stage. this will work. >> scott, you have a different take on this issue entirely although i'll note that 61% of americans do favor a vaccination requirement for air travel according to a recent gallop poll this year. you don't think this is something to be used to get people to be vaccinated. you don't think this is an appropriate tactic, tell me why? >> it's punishing people for no reason. we novakknow vaccinations work. i'm vaccinated and boosted. i believe in the science behind the vaccines, which is why i don't fear getting on an airplane. right now 85% of american adults had at least one shot. we have 15% of people with no sh shots. i highly doubt we'll capture them. we're getting into devices, airplanes that are literally the cleanest places in the world to sit. our own government studied airplane air at the beginning of this pandemic with the airlines and they have put out a report that says 99.99% of all the particles on an airplane get filtered out within six minutes you're highly unlikely to catch anything on an airplane. the question i have is are you doing this to punish the people you don't like or are you doing this because it's in the name of science and it's in the name of good sound policy? i don't think it will make a hill of beans difference in the overall vaccination rate but punish people and cause airports, which are already miserable to be more miserable and put a huge amount of pressure on the tsa which already struggles to do its current job and that doesn't get into the legal issues. civil rights issues that go into how we treat people in public accommodations. i think this is an idea born out of era -- >> i want you to respond. >> one more thing. this is an idea born i think in an era when there were people who thought we could get to covid zero. with omicron it isn't happening. vaccinations don't stop you from getting it. if you believe in your vaccine, you shouldn't fear getting on an airplane. >> what do you think? >> scott put up a lot of false arguments and part of it is the reason why i wanted to make it clear. >> what did i say that's false? >> hold on. hold on. let her finish. you wanted a chance to speak, let juliette speak. >> thank you, thank you, that was weird. what i want to say is i never said what is happening on the airplane is relevant. honestly. they may be the cleanest places on earth. i said the government has an interest in promoting vaccinations. we have hit a wall. the fact that so many americans are unvaccinated is a problem for all americans. so the tools that the united states government has include oversight and regulation of travel. that includes deciding what are the security measures that would permit someone on an airplane regardless of whether they're infecting people on the airplane. it's not a punishment. there is no right to fly. you can drive. you cannot fly. you can do whatever. also, just what was e rosomethi i've been a proponent of mandates since may or june. the unvaccinated are telling us that what is going to move them to vaccination is to be deprived of something they want to and that can be as mundane as a football game or a series trying to save their grandmother over the holidays. this is a missed opportunity to move people whose reasons for not getting vaccinated may be -- we don't really care what their reasons are. they are telling us and all of the data that they will move and so i think that's wrong to say it won't move them. it actually -- every mandate that's been enforced in the public sector and private sector has moved swaths of people to get shots, these numbers that we saw out of public safety in the military, in the private sector are remarkable. that's a common good. we both agree. >> i hear you. scott, what do you make of the notion that obviously, the deprivation could be an incentive for people? you still say that as punishment, is that right? >> well, of course, it's punishment. now that we've established that i didn't say anything that was false despite what juliette had to say, the issue here is will this make a difference? we have remarkable uptake of vaccine. i'm candidly astonished how many people have gotten at least one shot. i do not believe that the people who are unvaccinated are going to be moved in large numbers by a mandate at the airport. i do believe that the rest of americans who have done everything we've asked them to do from wear masks that some people say now don't work to get their shots to go home to close schools, people have done everything we've asked them to do and now we're going to make airports more miserable because we want to punish the people who won't do what we want them to do. this is not in keeping with the freedoms and the sort of the spirit of the u.s. constitution and the way we operate this country especially when you consider the punishment here is not for the unvaccinated but it's for the people that have to use these airports every single day. i don't think this is going to make a hill of beans difference but you want to punish people that won't compile. >> quick break. i want to come back and have a chance to flush this out further. don't go anywhere. stay right there. (all cheering) it feels too good to be true. it's kicking back and relaxing as we pick up your car. and when you get paid on the spot, it feels like scoring big. you know the feeling. you just never imagined you could get it from selling your car. well, with carvana, you can. experience the new way to sell a car. i'm back now talking about whether you should have mandates on domestic flights. scott was saying this is punitive as opposed to helpful. juliette, what do you say the argument he raised about this might over burden or overwhelm the mystery of the airports. is that persuasive at all to you? >> there will be administrative burdens that i've written about that can be relatively easy to come. you upload your vaccine card. we know there will be fraud. that's okay. all you're trying to do is get more people vaccinated at this stage. i should note what scott said about being happy how many people have vaccinated. there are many americans that haven't vaccinated. we have awhile to go to protect people that are much more likely to die. you can administrationvely do ts through the airlines or tsa. this is what canada did. this will be a runway to get this working okay and you'll see and then you will be able to verify. so this is not something that other countries that are doing it found so ownerous. there will be some administrative burden. we have to get out of the idea of feelings or you think people won't respond. i want to make it clear to viewers that the data is absolutely clear about three things. one is that mandates work. they work even in conservative elements like the military and public safety. the second is that the ability of the government to mandate security procedures in airline and travel has been well established. this is not a constitutional right. you can smoke in your own home for example. that's your freedom. you cannot smoke on an airplane and the third is basic data point here is that the unvaccinated are telling us and have told us consistently since january that they will move if they are deprived of a privilege they want, right? that's okay. they're telling us. we should listen to them. >> at the same token, juliette and scott i want you to have the last word on this because we talked about this, many people said this is not what we want. the exact opposite is not what they want to happen. what do you say? >> look, i think what we know about omicron, what we know about the spread of this particular variant, what we know about what the vaccines can do to it and what we know about everything we've done here to four is based on old data, old way of thinking that we were ever going to get down to covid zero and we would ever get to 100% vaccination rate. these are not possible. we have to start thinking about getting american life back in order and this would throw it into further chaos at a place that is already chaotic and miserable for those who use and it for what? for vaccinating a hand full of people maybe? maybe. you're going to cause millions of people to suffer in mystery at a place that's already miserable. i don't think it's worth it and it has a number of legal issues. >> i got to tell you scott, i bet 800,000 disagree. we'll leave it here for now. thank you. glass half full, glass half empty. before we go tonight, i want to let you know that i do have a new book on the way. it called "just pursuit a black prosecutor's fight for fairness" available for preorder wherever you get your book. in it i break down how the pursuit of justice creates often times injustice. i'm excited for you to read it and get to know me on a more personal level. thank you for watching. our coverage continues here. superpowers from a spider bite? i could use some help showing the world how liberty mutual customizes their car insurance so they only pay for what they need. (gasps) ♪ did it work? only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ spider-man no way home in theaters december 17th i recommend nature made vitamins, because i trust their quality. they were the first to be verified by usp, an independent organization that sets strict quality and purity standards. nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. >> a busy night. ghislaine maxwell found guilty on five counts. we begin tonight with covid and what officials and experts now concede is the start of several very rough weeks. this is what dr. michael osterholm told me >> we don't know a lot of the things we wish we'd know. but what wdo

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