Transcripts For CNN At This Hour With Kate Bolduan 20240709

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data on a key question today. how do current vaccines hold up to the new variant? and heading to kentucky. president biden arrives in kentucky. he arrived in kentucky moments ago to see the tornado devastation firsthand. let's begin with the congressional investigation into the attack on the u.s. capitol. the justice department now must decide whether to pursue a prosecution of mark meadows. the house voted last night as we know to hold the former trump white house chief of staff in criminal contempt of congress for refusing to cooperate with the panel investigating the insurrection. meadows is now the first former member of congress held in contempt since 1832. the vote was mostly along party lines with liz cheney and adam kinzinger as the only republicans voting with democrats on this. before the vote, the january 6th committee shared more revealing text messages from unnamed -- that unnamed lawmakers sent to meadows as the siege unfolded in realtime. let's get to paula reid in washington with the latest developments on this. so what now, paula? >> well, kate, let's take a few steps back. how did we get here? before he suddenly stopped cooperating, meadows provided thousands of pages of evidence to the committee. and they are demanding that he come in and at least answer questions about what he's already turned over. clearly he doesn't believe that's privileged. in the last three days, the committee has become a lot more public in sharing what it is that they got from meadows and why they think he is such a key witness. why they believe they have to hear from him. now among the text messages that they shared last night, one from november 4th. now this is a text message to meadows from a member of congress suggesting a, quote, aggressive strategy for republican-led legislatures to just send their own electors to congress and let the supreme court decide who won the election. so, kate, that's the day after the election. a member of congress, white house chief of staff, discussing a plan to disenfranchise millions of voters. president biden weighed in on meadows and the contempt issue a short time ago. let's take a listen to what he said. >> i don't know enough -- just what i've seen, i've not spoken to gone. it seems he's worthy of being held in contempt. >> biden had previously weighs in on steve bannon's contempt case suggesting he should be prosecuted. and there was some criticism of that for the president to weigh in on a pending justice department case. the justice department is, of course, supposed to act independently of the white house. now going forward, a lot of questions, kate, about why the lawmakers who sent these text messages are not named. the committee has named fox news hosts, the president's own son in some of these messages they've shared but cnn is told by the committee in the next week or so they'll decide whether they will name those lawmakers. the committee insists they wanted to put out the content before naming these lawmakers but we'll be reporting on this, too, trying to figure out who was sending these text messages. >> absolutely, paula. thank you for the update and all the context. here's more of what we know about this. we know congressional investigators revealed text messages this week between three fox hosts and mark meadows as part of the case that they are building against mark meadows. the network's personalities pleading with meadows to get trump to condemn the violence as the attack was unfolding and happening. we also know this news has not been covered by fox, really, until last night when fox host sean hannity was confronted by one of his own colleagues on air. cnn's chief media correspondent, anchor of "reliable sources" brian stelter is here with me now. brian, what happened? >> that's right. sean hannity and laura ingraham both defended themselves saying they've always been consistent, they've always condemned the violence of january 6th. and that's true. both hosts did very quickly come out to condemn it but then they've spent the last year whitewashing it, trying to blame others and excuse the behavior. here's what happened on hannity's show when geraldo rivera called hannity out and tried to hold him accountable. >> i beg you, sean, to remember the frame of mind you were in when you wrote that text on january 6th and when laura did and when brian did and when don junior did. remember the concern you had. remember the frustration you had at our beloved 45th president. >> yeah, because i wanted a riot to end. >> why doesn't he say something? why -- >> okay, and -- but the point is he did. >> so hannity at the end saying, but the point is he did. he did come out and tell the rioters to go home. of course, the former president did that way too slowly. he allowed it to go on for hours, apparently watched tv enjoying the sights that horrible afternoon. this is a classic example of what trump did in office. he'd run around setting fires and say i don't like fire. so you'd have it both ways. he'd both cause destruction and then claim he was against it and that's what happened on january 6th as well. so hannity there is trying to let trump off the hook, continuing to claim trump was not responsible, and i think, kate, that speaks volumes about where trump is, continuing to lead the gop. figures like hannity and ingram do not want to get on trump's bad side. they suspect he'll be the leader of the gop and possibly run for office in 2024. so you see these fox hosts trying to cover up the past, even though they know just how horrible january 6th was. >> brian, thanks for the reporting. appreciate it. joining me now on the big question now facing the justice department and the attorney general, former attorney general himself under george w. bush, alberto gonzales. thanks for being here. let's focus on merrick garland, the questions before him and what he'll do about mark meadows. in the past you were represented by the same attorney representing meadows now, but what do you think merrick garland is considering in deciding whether to pursue charges against meadows? >> i think he's going to be looking at a wide range of issues. one, he's going to look at, what is the evidence? of course, it's one thing for congress to make this referral, but does the evidence support the claim of contempt of congress? so a fundamental question that has to be answered. i think he's also going to be looking at the likelihood the supreme court will take up the issue as to whether or not this is executive privilege. he may wait a bit to see if the court does, in fact, do that. because that will answer the fundamental question, whether this is a valid assertion of executive privilege by the former president. as we all know, the assertion of executive privilege is a qualified privilege. even an assertion by a sitting president, it's a qualified privilege. so i'd argue it's probably even more qualified when the assertion is made by a former president. perhaps even more qualified when that's made in the face of a contrary position by the sitting president and more qualified when the assertion is made in comparison to the need for the information. and i think you can make a very strong argument that the need for the information here in the face of what we saw on january 6th, possibly an interruption, the blocking of the, you know, the constitutional counting of electoral votes. i think all of that places a heavy burden against the assertion of executive privilege. >> that's a lot of qualifications. this is a former member of congress, a former colleague that they held in contempt. a former white house chief of staff. does that factor into the ag's decision that he's making here? >> i'm not sure that his positions as a former member of congress will factor into it. i think the fact that he's a former chief of staff to the president of the united states will be a valid conversation because here we're talking about the chief adviser to the president of the united states. the executive exists to ensure the closest advisers to the president can speak with candor to the president, without fear of prosecution or criticism, public ridicule of that advice and so, yes, i think that will be a consideration for the attorney general. >> and there's much more, obviously, to be known. but based on public record, so far, do you see enough to bring contempt charges against meadows? >> i don't have all the information. the attorney general has. and we never have all the information that a prosecutor has and making this kind of decision. so i would hesitate to reach a judgment on that without having all the information that merrick garland surely has. >> president biden was not asked about the attorney general's decision, but was asked specifically this morning for the reaction to congress holding meadows in contempt and the president said that it's worthy, that in his view, it's worthy of being held in contempt. what do you make of that? as a former attorney general, you know, and the president weighing in on this at all. >> well, again, this wasn't a statement, as i understood, giving an opinion as to what he thought the department of justice should do. >> right. >> that's different than his views about what congress has done or should do. and, you know, the fact that he was in the senate for so long, i think maybe gives him the basis to offer an opinion that may be worth something. i don't think that opinion will carry any weight and certainly shouldn't carry any weight with respect to the department of justice and again, in my opinion, that statement did not relate to what he thought the department should do but his opinion about the actions of congress. >> yeah, which isn't the -- which is an important distinction when talking about this. given the text messages ss that have now been made public. do you think the congressional committee should be seeking to interview or subpoena, if necessary, don junior and the fox hosts who have been named? >> it appears to me so, kate. honestly. but again, i don't have all the information that the committee has. they may have other information that may make the need not as great as it might appear to us sitting here this morning. so i don't know, but, you know, i certainly would be interested as a public citizen about what might be -- what might be or might not be included in these other texts and email messages. >> absolutely. as we've noted, the committee has clearly identified don junior, has clearly identified and named the fox hosts but did not name the lawmakers who also texted mark meadows who they read the texts from. they haven't given really a specific reason why, only promising that lawmakers' names will eventually be revealed. what do you think of that? strategy or special treatment? >> oh, i have no idea, kate. i wouldn't hazard a guess what congressional leadership is thinking with respect to this particular issue. listen, they've indicated that those names will be revealed in the future. i don't know why there's an absolute need to know that information at this particular point in time. >> other than the public just wants to know more, as always, as well as journalists. liz cheney has now said repeatedly that meadows must testify because at least in part to -- it leads to answer what she calls a key question and what -- and how she has described it a couple of times now is this. did donald trump through action or inaction corruptly seek to obstruct or impede congress' proceedings? and that language is very similar to the actual federal statute on obstruction of congress. what would it take to prove that? >> quite honestly, kate, i think that you have to prove intent. obviously, intent will be critical in this kind of charge. and so getting into the mind of what was said is an indication of what someone is thinking, what someone intends, and that's why access to this kind of information is so very critical. if you're talking about possibly pursuing some kind of obstruction of congress charge. >> yeah, and that would be far down the road. attorney general, good to see you. thanks for coming on. >> thanks for having me. coming up for us, new warnings about a surge of coronavirus in america. as the nih is about to release data on how effective vaccines are holding up against the omicron variant. dr. sanjay gupta joins us next. but it's not like that's my only interest. i also love cooking with heart-healthy, idaho potatoes. always look for the grown in idaho seal. firefighter maggie gronewald knows how to handle dry weather... ...and dry, cracked skin. new gold bond advanced healing ointment. restore healthy skin, with no sticky feeling. gold bond. champion your skin. i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! 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>> it does appear to be spreading more quickly than we've seen with previous variants. that's thbeen the big question. when delta started to spread in may, it was around a percent of the overall new cases. but by the end of summer, it was the dominant variant. it had a doubling time of roughly every two weeks or so. let me show you now in the country, the vast majority of cases are still in the united states delta. but we also know that the numbers have been increasing over the last couple of weeks. 0.4% to 3% now for the country but if you look at new york, new jersey, some of the data there shows a very significant uptick. just over -- the last two weeks. that's something that, you know, has been anticipated. we saw evidence of that in europe as well. so this should not be a surprise and it's pretty more clearly more contagious. in terms of severity. one question is, look at the total number of cases and determine what proportion of those people are getting severely ill, needing to be hospitalized. and there, the news appears to be better. early days, but if you look overall at the data, the proportion of people who end up in the hospital with omicron versus with previous variants, may be lower. that could be because the virus itself is not making people as sick. could be there's more existing immunity in the community. they're not sure. if you look specifically at the vaccine, against omicron, with two doses, okay, this was data that came out of south africa. significant drop off in terms of effectiveness against infection. still pretty good, although lower effectiveness against hospitalizations. 70%. that's two doses. we need to see data on what boosted sort of protection looks like, and whether or not there will be sort of a need for an omicron-specific booster in the future. that's going to be a big question coming out of this briefing today. >> sanjay, yesterday i asked the pfizer ceo about just that. about the need for a new vaccine specifically targeting -- targeted toward omicron. let me play what he said. >> i don't know if we will need an omicron vaccine. we cannot take chances with that so we are moving full speed in developing one. and i know from the studies we've done so far that if we need to make one, that one will be very effective against omicron and that likely will be ready in march and that will be ready to manufacture in very big quantities. >> he says they'll be ready, but based on what we know now, do you think we're going to need it? >> well, it's hard to say. keep in mind that they did do the same process for delta and for beta. they created boosters specific for those variants as well and then they basically realized that the existing vaccines were working pretty well. so it's sort of the same process. i think there's two points. one is that the existing vaccines, especially with the booster, do seem to be quite protective against what they are designed to do which is prevent people from getting sick. i think that's an important point but there was something else that came out of the data in south africa and that is the protection that people might have from infection inquired immunity. the idea thauf had it in the past. how well does that protect you in the future. with omicron, they do see the reinfection rate is definitely higher than with previous variants. so this virus, this variant seems to be distinctive enough that your previous infection acquired immunity may not be as protective. with the vaccines they may offer broad enough immunity to protect not only against delta but omicron. but we have to see. that's going to be a big question. will there be an omicron-specific booster needed in the future? we know they're working on it, but how necessary will it be? >> and there are so many people who are eligible for a booster and haven't gotten it yet, even with the current vaccines we're talking about. is it clear to you how much more vulnerable someone is now, if they've had two shots but not the third, compared to someone who has had all three? >> yeah, i think that it's pretty clear if you look at the data that two things emerge. one is that two shots is still very protective, but it does wane off. if you look at israel, that data, for example, you can look at what sort of was happening in israel and this is going back to late summer. end of august is when boosters really started to begin. you can see the numbers were going up at that point. still low numbers. even though you are looking at a zoomed in graph and they were going up, they were still doing pretty well overall but clearly, after boosters sort of came on the scene you can see a drop off. so there was a real correlation there. that's cases. let's look at overall deaths as well in terms of the impact of boosters there. again, we marked where boosters began, and this is -- this tells a more important story that there was a significant drop off in terms of the death rate after boosters. i want to point out that two shots, we're doing pretty well. even though that's zoomed in and the numbers are going up, they're still relatively small. but if the question is, do boosters make an impact? for sure. based on that data out of israel, it was pretty clear. >> it will be interesting what comes out with this new nih data as they'll be announcing it any moment. good to see you, sanjay. thank you. a quick programming note, everyone. we have a new installment of sanjay's award-winning "weed" series. a closer look at how families with autistic children are finding hope in cannabis but for some it's hope that comes at a risk. watch "weed 6: marijuana and autism" sunday night at 8:00 p.m. coming up at this hour, the former minneapolis police officer convicted of murdering george floyd has just changed his plea to federal charges. the breaking details in a live report, next. as a professional bull-rider i'm used to taking chances. but when it comes to my insurance i don't. i use liberty mutual, they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wooo, yeaa, woooooo and, by switching you could even save 665 dollars. hey tex, can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ is struggling to manage your type 2 diabetes knocking you out of your zone? 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>> we just got out of the courthouse here. we're in district court in st. paul. derek chauvin, the former minneapolis police officer, who was previously convicted on state murder charges, we know he was also charged by the federal government with civil rights violations. he just changed his plea today from not guilty to guilty. we understand now from prosecutors that they will be seeking a 25-year sentence as part of that plea agreement. now that was not the only case that chauvin was facing. the case involving george floyd. prosecutors allege that back in 2017, he violated the civil rights of a 14-year-old juvenile, allegedly assaulting that juvenile with a flashlight, choking him. again, part of this discussion today, he also pleaded guilty to that case. now we didn't hear much from chauvin today. he did answer some questions from prosecutors. they went through during parts of this plea agreement asking him and i'll read some of it. they asked him, did you keep george floyd down on the ground beyond the point of him being responsive? chauvin said, correct. they said you kept your knee down on him, injuring him. chauvin said, correct. they also asked about the case involving the 14-year-old, if he assaulted that child if he choked him if he assaulted him with that flashlight? derek chauvin admitting, yes, he did do those things. remind our viewers what this indictment actually entailed. i'll read part of it. derek chauvin willfully deprived george floyd of the right, secured and protected by the constitution and laws of the united states to be freed from an unreasonable seizure, which includes the right to be free from the use of unreasonable force by a police officer. but again, the news here is that we see the family of george floyd gathering to speak after this major development in court today. derek chauvin now pleading guilty to those federal charges. we also know for the good of our viewers that there were three other officers who have also been charged. their case has now been severed or separated. chauvin is pleading guilty but those charges the other three officers also violated george floyd's civil rights by failing to intervene and provide medical assistance, that trial continues. they've pled not guilty but we expect their trial will continue in the next couple of months. >> josh, thanks for the update. appreciate it. let's turn our focus to wall street right now as the federal reserve is expected to take a big step toward raising interest rates. let's go to cnn's matt egan who is joining me now. what's happening right now? >> well, kate, this is one of the most important fed meetings in recent memory. that's because for the first time in a long time, the united states is dealing with elevated inflation. and this sticker shock is getting worse and it's squeezing everyday american families. now the high cost of living is certainly weighing on the president's poll numbers. but it's really the federal reserve, not the white house, that's responsible for maintaining price stability. and right now, there's anything but price stability. the fed has come under fire from critics because for months, the chairman, jerome powell, he said that inflation was just going to be a temporary problem. he infamously called it transitory. now powell has since said it's probably a good time to retire the phrase transitory, but that doesn't stop an economist from recently saying the fed, quote, probably made the worst inflation call in the history of the federal reserve. new numbers out this week show that producer prices were up by nearly 10% from a year ago. that is the biggest inflation spike of that kind since that metric began a decade ago. consumer prices at a 39-year high. talking about double-digit price increases for everything from new cars and furniture to used cars up more than 30% from a year ago. now the good news is the fed knows how to fight inflation. it can tap the brakes on the economy. in this case, that means it can unwind the bond buying stimulus program that it launched in march of 2020 and also eventually raise interest rates off of rock bottom levels. and that would raise the cost of borrowing for car loans and mortgages and credit cards. but, kate, the bad news is, the harder the fed has to hit the brakes, the greater the chance that it causes some sort of an accident, either in the economy or in financial markets or in both. so that is the very difficult balancing act facing the fed today. >> absolutely. good to see you, matt. coming up for us, president biden is in kentucky to tour the catastrophic damage from the tornadoes there. we'll take you there, next. must be carried across all roads and all bridges. it's not magic that makes more holiday deliveries to homes in the us than anyone else, it's the hardworking people of the united states postal service. ♪ i'm a reporter for the new york times. if you just hold it like this. yeah. ♪ i love finding out things that other people don't want me to know. mm-hmm. 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>> you know, i think it's deeper than just a tit-for-tat in that what we have seen happen over the past year or two is xi jinping and vladimir putin, the sort of odd couple of our geopolitical adversaries, have begun to come together in an alliance of convenience. these are two countries that don't get along with each other terribly well. the russians, obviously, have very deep resentments of china's economic rise at a time that russia itself has remained with an economy that's about the size of italy's. but at the same time, they see a moment to go counter the united states and to counter president biden as he pushes his theme that this is a contest between democracies and autocracies, when he's clearly talking about the two of them. >> it's not necessarily a crisis moment with russia or china. it's -- the issue is, it feels like is that biden is kind of nearing or kind of looking at reaching a crisis moment with both of these adversaries, at the very same time. so where do you see this going? >> well, you know, the big debate all fall in washington has been, are we kind of slipping into a cold war with these two countries? now no one in the administration wants to use that phrase, and they rightly say, look, this is very different from the cold war that we remember. we've got a deep economic relationship with china that creates mutual dependencies that didn't exist in the old cold war with the soviet union. but we certainly have seen a lot of cold war-like behavior. we've seen u.s. sanctions on chinese companies. we're supposed to see some more of those tomorrow. we have seen the tension with russia over ukraine. we've seen debates over whether china is going to try to intimidate or eventually try to take over taiwan. these are all pretty deep cold war-like behaviors with both countries. and, of course, we're seeing these two countries try to show that even while the u.s. gathers the western allies, they, too, can create a system where they hope to set some rules globally. so right now, the question is, is there an off ramp here for biden so that we're not simultaneously in a low level conflict with our two major adversaries? >> this morning, on a different topic, but related because national security, this morning microsoft issued a warning that china and other adversaries like iran and north korea is trying to exploit a software flaw that the biden administration has come out and said could affect hundreds of millions of devices globally. how serious is this? what should people know here, david? >> so this is a flaw that was not created by the chinese or russians or iranians that actually existed by accident in open source software that is used in a very wide variety of applications, including in devices that companies and individuals use. and it had to get sealed up and, over the weekend, we saw the u.s. government issue a warning about it and there's been a patch that has been sent out about it. but the fact of the matter is that hackers can exploit these kinds of vulnerabilities faster than people will pay attention and get them sealed up. and it could be weeks or months before it's sealed up. and what's interesting, but not surprising, is that suddenly we're seeing activity from russian, chinese, iranian hackers who are trying to use this. now the question is, can they only use it for surveillance or could they do deeper damage with it? and so far we don't know. we haven't seen a huge amount of damage the way we did with, they say, the solarwinds hack a year ago, which was run by russian intelligence. but that may be coming. >> that's the scariest part is what we don't know. good to see you, david. coming up for us, president biden touring damage from the tornadoes right now in kentucky. we're going to take you there live, next. look! oh my god... oh wow. ♪ i want my daughter riley to know about her ancestors and how important it is to know who you are and to know where you came from. doesn't that look like your papa? that's your great grandfather. it's like opening a whole 'nother world that we did not know existed. ♪ you finally have a face to a name. when you give the gift of ancestry®, you give the gift of family. ♪ ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! 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(vo) visible. switch and get up to $200, plus our best ear buds, on us. developing at this hour, you're seeing live pictures from kentucky. president biden just arrived in tornado-ravaged mayfield, kentucky. he's getting a firsthand look at the catastrophic damage there. he's seen there with the governor, governor beshear. i think they're going to be in three different towns today. we're also learning, at the same time as we watch this, heartbreaking new details about the lives lost in all of this. six members of one family were killed in bowling green. rachel and steven brown and three of their four children, along with rachel's mother, died when a tornado hit their home. the couple's 13-year-old daughter is still missing. and we also just learned another family was killed on that very same block as the browns, five people dead in that family. authorities say two of them were infants. cnn's brian todd is live in mayfield, kentucky. he's joining us now with more. brian, what are you seeing today? >> reporter: well, kate, the president is about to see some scenes of not just devastation but what you can call annihilation. this is a town of 10,000 people which, from the head of the emergency system is a town that doesn't exist. look at this behind me. this is one of the main drags of mayfield, and you have leveled businesses and some excavation going on here. there is a shovel that's been scooping up some degree and taking it out of what used to be a floral design business over here. they have been working at a fre netic pace. the cleanup is nothing like we've ever seen. i it's faster than what we've seen in recent years. they've installed some telecommunication poles. the president is not far away, he's going to see all of this. what's also interesting is the human dynamic of people who are victims of this. the first day or two after a tornado hits, you talk to people at their homes, and we've talked to them this week here, picking through what's left of their homes. they're kind of stoic, a little shell-shocked and they don't show much emotion. it's right about now that it sets in. we just talked to two people what dit means that this all happened around christmastime, that they lost their homes, and one of them just started crying. they said, this isn't christmas. there's no way it could be christmas when their houses and businesses look like this. this is what the president is about to experience as they try to process all this. >> it is too overwhelming when you see the scope and scale. joining me now on the phone is someone who knows the search too well, chris smiley. he's a resident of bowling green, kentucky, one of the areas the president will be visiting today. can you give me an update on what is going on in your town? >> we have fema here. we're moving along. we're not moving as fast as we want to, but i think we're making a pretty good speed of it. the people and volunteers keep on coming. of course, we're expecting to see the president today. he's supposed to make a run-through. we're grateful for that. we've had great volunteers, we've had overwhelming physical material and building and clothes. we've run out of places to keep our county seat which is madisonville. we have help navigating through all this stuff and they've all been great. we probably would have gone out of here if they hadn't come. it's overwhelming when a third of your town is gone, or 75% of it is gone. >> i've heard you say 75% of your town has been just wiped out. when the president does come, what do you want him to see, what do you want him to take away and remember of dawson springs? >> well, the mayor and i were talking earlier, we want to make sure to stress what we've got here. it will take weeks and weeks and months to get forms filled out and stuff like that so we can get some action on the ground. we need to get it completed, we'll find these people places to live. of course, we have to get the debris and stuff cleaned up, so we can set up maybe temporary houses and a lady is wondering if it's all right if her insurance company sets up a trailer for her until she can get her house rebuilt or whatever. i thought that was great. things like that, that's going to happen. i think the last count i heard was, what, 45? >> 38. >> yeah, 38 that are unaccounted for. we're still seeing people that are still to be people that haven't notified and then you realize people are looking for them and they left town or whatever. there are no more bodies inside the city so far. >> brian todd on the ground said this is the moment when the emotion kind of takes over when people are dealing with shock when they see just the devastation in front of them, and this is devastation on a scale we've never seen before from a tornado. how are you doing? you've got 75% of your town is gone. how are you doing personally? >> i'm 63 years old. i've done utility work for 40 years. i've seen things tore up but i've never seen anything like this. as the mayor, you feel like you're responsible for everybody in it. it's like losing your child, you know. it's terrible, it is. >> it truly is. mayor, thank you for your strength, thank you for coming on. really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. mayor of dawson springs where the president is going to be heading today. we'll continue staying on this. thank you all so much for being here. i'm kate bolduan on "inside politics" for john king. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ who's on it with jardiance? 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