attacking kyle. one with a skateboard. one with his hands. one with his feet. one with a gun. hands and feet can cause great bodily harm. >> that was a little bit of a snippet of what happened today. we will walk through that self-defense claim. meantime, steve bannon turns himself in on contempt of congress charges for refusing to tell the january 6th committee what he knows about one of the darkest days in our history, the insurrection at our capitol. and then there is infrastructure, finally. this is really infrastructure week, finally. signed into law by president biden today. we have all that this hour. we want to start with omar jimenez in kenosha with the latest on the rittenhouse trial. >> in the sequence of events from the shooting of jacob blake all the way after that, everything this community went through, the only person who shot and killed anyone was the defendant. >> reporter: after two weeks, the prosecution and the defense of kyle rittenhouse had one last chance to leave an impression on the jury. >> you cannot claim self-defense against a danger you create. >> reporter: at one point the prosecution even demonstrates a moment where they say rittenhouse pointed his weapon prior to the fateful chase that ended in the killing of joseph rosenbaum. pointing out in the aftermath people believed rittenhouse could have been an active shooter and that the crowd had a right to defend itself that night. >> how are we supposed to know where he is going next? and i got to stop here for a moment and highlight the hypocrisy of the defense because according to the defense, if someone has a gun, they are a threat. if someone points a gun, they are a threat. there is only one exception to that. the defendant. by their logic, he gets to run around with a gun all night. oh, we are not supposed to take him as a threat. there is no exception in the law for kyle rittenhouse. >> garbage, just like his case. >> reporter: the defense doubled down on its argument this was self-defense. >> the state wants to call my client an active shooter. kyle was not an active shooter that's a buzz word that the state wants to lash on to because it excuses the actions of that mob. he runs two blocks from 63rd to 61st without firing his weapon. >> reporter: the attorney argued rittenhouse did what he did because he had to, especially in regards to joseph rosenbaum, the first of the two killed that night. >> kyle shot joseph rosenbaum to stop a threat to his person. and i am glad he shot him because if joseph rosenbaum had got that gun, i don't for a minute believe he wouldn't have used it against somebody else. he was irrational and crazy. my client didn't shoot at anyone until he was chased and cornered. >> reporter: but during rebuttal, the prosecution argued there were plenty of steps rittenhouse could have taken before shooting rosenbaum. >> no one is saying that mr. rosenbaum should have chased mr. rittenhouse. no one is saying that mr. rittenhouse did not have a right to defend himself. this case is about the right to use deadly force. hit him, kick him, knee him, anything else. and mr. rosenbaum and mr. rittenhouse are alive. >> reporter: in total, rittenhouse faced six charges until the misdemeanor of a minor in possession of a weapon was dismissed over the gun not being long enough to be considered illegal. rittenhouse still faces five felony charges, all of which he pleaded not guilty to, the most serious from the shooting and killing of anthony huber, second of two people killed that night. he faces first-degree intentional homicide. lesser offenses of second-degree homicide or first-degree reckless homicide could be considered. they could be considered if the jury is not satisfied of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt on the original charge. in regards to the shooting of gaige grosskreutz who survived, rittenhouse is charged with attempted first-degree intentional homicide with the use of a dangerous weapon. the judge said the jury could consider attempted second-degree intentional homicide and first-degree recklessly endangering safety. on top of those two charges he also faces two counts of recklessly endangering safety tied to the shootings at or near two people not killed and first-degree reckless homicide for the killing of joseph rosenbaum. the jurors now get to decide the fate of kyle rittenhouse over a year after he killed two people and wounded a third. >> members of the jury, the time has come when the great burden of reaching a just, fair and conscientious decision in this case -- >> omar jimenez live in kenosha. good evening. all eyes on kenosha now. what can you tell us about the national guard being on standby ahead of this verdict? >> reporter: yeah, don. as we understand right now there are up to 500 wisconsin national guard soldiers on standby to respond if necessary in this. according to the governor's office, they are staging outside the city, and again would be called in if requested by local law enforcement. on the local side, the kenosha police department and the sheriffs departments say they have been monitoring the trial. they have been monitoring communications and they are adequately staffed to respond to whatever may come stemming from this decision. and over the course of the trial we have seen some protests come in and come out. they have been very small. today things ratcheted up a little bit. even still, they were very small. all of it, of course, as we head into the most crucial part of this trial, 12 jurors being selected to deliberate on this case, and more significantly decide the fate of kyle rittenhouse. >> omar, appreciate you joining us. you will be there to the end. thank you very much. appreciate it. i want to bring in two attorneys who know the judge in this case. joining me criminal defense attorney patrick cafferty and paul bueker. so good to see you. thank you for joining. so, paul, i will start with you. closing arguments are over. do you think the prosecution proved that rittenhouse -- they proved his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? >> well, i think on some of the lesser includeds, i was just shocked because i was in court for a good portion of the day, and i was trying to monitor the case. the closing arguments seemed to never end. every time i checked my phone, they were closing. i think the 2 1/2 hours per side was excessive. but your question is, do i think the government has proved kyle rittenhouse guilty of a homicide beyond a reasonable doubt? yes, i do. >> you think the prosecution has proved him beyond a reasonable doubt? >> of a homicide. >> of a homicide. got you. >> yes. first-degree, i didn't say first-degree reckless. you have to understand, pragmatically, i think you can't overlook the reality. this was bedlam. this was craziness going on in kenosha. i hope it doesn't repeat. and two people were tragically killed. i find it hard to believe just pragmatically, not legally, taking off my lawyer hat, that the jury will let him walk away without a homicide conviction. the judge has given them a lot of choices and it's very confusing. you saw it was 36 pages of instructions, almost an hour, an hour and a half of charging. i think the jury is just dizzy from all of this. >> it is overwhelming. you are right about that. patrick, let me get you to weigh in. he says he does believe they proved him guilty of a homicide. >> so i think paul may well be correct about that, particularly once the judge agreed to give the lesser included offenses with regard to the second homicide and the attempted homicide. i found it compelling during the prosecutor's closing argument when he showed the video of rittenhouse jogging down the street and various people confronting rittenhouse verbally, why did you shoot him? and asking him different questions. and rittenhouse was getting different answers to different people and, in essence, the prosecutor said he was lying about this, he was lying about that. what struck me, and i think that the prosecutor did ultimately raise the issue, was rittenhouse very easily could have put his weapon down at that point, put his hands in the air and said, please take me to the police. but he didn't do this. he kept on jogging down the street with the rifle. it almost looked to me at one point in time as if he pointed the rifle at someone who was verbally confronting him, which would have been consistent with what the prosecutor was arguing he had done earlier in the parking lot. so i think a jury that looks at that, particularly somebody who came to the box with a strong belief that resorting to lethal force should be the absolute last thing that somebody does, is going to look at that and say, yeah, this guy had other options. he didn't need to resort to lethal force in every one of these situations. >> paul, you are shaking your head. i mean, i have to say it seemed like today the prosecution finally had a story to tell the jury to explain what happened that night, that rittenhouse was, their words, a chaos tourist and he focused in on the four times he shot joseph rosenbaum even after the first one disabled him. was that a effective? >> the closing arguments are like opening statements. they are the time for the lawyers to get up there and pound their chest. it's not evidence. the jury is not taking notes. but i said from the very beginning, and i stand by this, i believe the jury will find that he had a subjective belief. he had an objective belief that was reasonable. i believe where the defense is going to fall short, there is no duty to retreat. that's for sure in wisconsin. but i think the force he used was excessive. whether it was against mr. huber, mr. rosenbaum, but i think the force he used was excessive, and it's not what he could have done. it's what, if he had to really use deadly force at that moment, and i think the prosecution was able to prove, because the burden is on the prosecution, that he did not have to use deadly force. i think that's the weak spot, if you will, of the defense. >> i was looking down, patrick, at the makeup of the jurors. there are 18 jurors. eight men, ten women. it will be narrowed down to 12 tomorrow using a raffle tumbler. two things for you. how much of the closing arguments will stick with these jurors, right? that's the last thing, last impression they get of it, and how much will it matter who ends up in that deliberation room? >> so i'll answer in reverse order. i think it's going to make a huge difference as to who ends up in the box at the end of the raffle spin-outs. theoretically, you could end up with ten females and two males. you could end up with some other combination, eight men, four women. and depending who is left in the box, that may ultimately dictate what the verdict is going to be. i think lots of folks, including myself, have talked about the fact that there are plenty of people who showed up for jury duty with their minds made up already, and they weren't necessarily dishonest with the judge when they told the judge that they could be fair and open-minded, but somehow, some way they brought baggage with them. they watched the video, saw the news, talked to their friends, and to some degree they had their minds made up already. depending which way their mind was made up, that will dictate how it is they vote. i think that some people just see what they want to see t and there is plenty of evidence here to satisfy one side or the other. so i think that's going to be a huge issue. as far as how they were affected by the closing arguments, i think, again, that may depend on who the person is. so, for example, the defense attorney, mark richards, has what i would call an unapologetic style. he got up there and he owned everything that kyle rittenhouse did and put it in the prism of self-defense, self-defense, self-defense. he had do it. he didn't back-pedal. he didn't apologize. he embraced the defense. for some people, men in particular, that may sound really good. on the other hand, you may have females or more liberal-leaning people who didn't appreciate the style necessarily, didn't appreciate the lack of apology, didn't appreciate what they may have perceived as a lack of respect for human life in that defense argument. so, again, it may depend on who is in the box and who is listening and that will dictate. >> thank you, gentlemen. i have to move on i appreciate it. undoubtedly, we will see you back here again. this whole case is likely to come down to one key question. was it self-defense? elie honig is here in the studio with me to walk us through the self-defense claim. good to see you. thank you for joining us. it's been a while. i want to get into this idea about provocation. the defense is accusing the prosecution of lying when they say kyle rittenhouse provoked violence in kenosha. this idea of provocation, explain why that's really important in wisconsin. it's an attempt to knock down rittenhouse's self-defense argument. >> provocation is the way you overcome a self-defense argument. let's take it back for secondary. self-defense cases, first of all, are really difficult for prosecutors. it can be easier to prosecute a whodunit than a he did it but had a good reason. self-defense means a person can only use lethal force, force that's likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if he reasonably believes, reasonably, that's why we are asking what was reasonable for kyle rittenhouse to believe that night that the force was necessary to prevent imminent death or bodily injury. imminent, close at hand. if he can establish that, the prosecution can overcome it. provocation does not mean -- and i think the prosecution fell a little short here. it doesn't mean he was out of the place. it doesn't mean he shouldn't be there. it doesn't mean he was a punk, up to no good. it means that a person specifically provokes an attack for the specific purpose of -- excuse me, intending to use the attack as an excuse to attack the person who comes after him. it has to be focused at a specific person. the idea is i want to get that person to attack me so i can use lethal force against him. that's very specific. >> so this is what the prosecution is saying. the prosecution is saying that rittenhouse provoked all of the violence. but the defense is saying something else. here it is. >> kyle rittenhouse shot mr. rosenbaum because he was attacking kyle. every person who was shot was attacking kyle. one with a skateboard, one with his hands, one with his feet, one with a gun. hands and feet can cause great bodily harm. i am sure the state will say, well, he didn't have great bodily harm, so it doesn't matter. that's not the standard. the standard is could cause great bodily harm. >> so who is right here? is he right? is that enough to warrant kyle rittenhouse shooting someone with this assault-style rifle? >> that's a key question for the jury. i am not sure it was a good idea to lump in gun, skateboard, hands and feet because they are not all created equal, right? the question is, was kyle rittenhouse in reasonable fear for his life? imminent fear for his life. now, the gun is one thing, right, that the witness grosskreutz had his gun out. hands or feet, the jury may have a hard time accepting, okay, he could be kicked, punched, therefore, it's okay to shoot. that's where the prosecution may have some traction here. >> yeah, listen, i have to run. went long with the guys before you. these lesser includeds, what is that? >> this means the prosecution can win even if they don't prove the top charges. if the jury is having a problem, they may compromise, say not guilty on the first-degree but guilty on a lesser charge which is a win for the prosecution. >> the judge did say that they can consider it. >> it's way more likely than convictions on the top charge. >> thank you. so former trump advisor steve bannon appearing in federal court after being charged with contempt of congress and he is acting tough towards the democrats. >> man: what's my safelite story? 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some hair, too, right? bannon was released from custody pending trial. cnn's justice correspondent evan perez. here we go again. he is turning this into a circus as one would expect. he was live-streaming outside the courthouse today. he is facing up to one year in jail for each count. is this all a game to him? >> look, it's a production. as you pointed out, he showed up live-streaming from, in front of the fbi, the local fbi office where he turned himself in. and then after the hearing, where he, by the way, during the hearing he was very respectful. he had a totally different tone. he steps out and then that's what you see at the end of that hearing. but he was met by a production team that had arranged his press conference there with the microphones. so, yeah, it is a bit of a spectacle. i think you can see there he was name-checking all of his perceived enemies. the people who he believes are, obviously -- these are stars on his reality show. >> it's all about clicks, isn't it? >> yeah, and his podcast. he has a loyal following on his podcast. >> yeah. so president trump's impeachment lawyer is taking on bannon's case. >> yeah. >> how -- wasn't he critical of him, bannon of him? how did that happen? >> yeah, i mean, i don't know, actually. you're right. i mean, during -- >> go on. >> i mean, look exactly. and there is nothing that is rational about any of this stuff. bannon, as you pointed out, was critical of him during trump's impeachment, criticized him for not using the vote fraud lies as part of the former president's defense. yeah, it's interesting. i think he needed him because he needed somebody who was barred -- who is barred in d.c. to represent him before the hearing today. >> evan, we have this reporting from abc's jonathan karl that on new year's eve 2020 trump's then chief of staff mark meadows emailed mike pence's top aide, a plan for overturning the election. meadows is also ignoring a subpoena to go before the january 6th committee but they are not ready to put forward contempt charges. what's up? >> i think they are struggling, don. you can see why, right? because what -- by bringing -- by going to the justice department, having the justice department prosecute steve bannon, that kind of closes the book on steve bannon. they are not going to get anything from him. even if he is convicted, it doesn't mean he is going to be able to -- they are going to get anything from him. so they want stuff from meadows. meadows is key to understanding what was happening. and i think, frankly, what jonathan karl has revealed is extremely important because it tells you a lot more about the ultimate plan that they had, which is for -- on january 6th mike pence would turn this back, right, to the states, and then eventually set up a system whereby the congressional delegations would vote for president and they believed probably they were right, that that's the way donald trump then wins a second term. so disregarding the voters in six states and then instead going to trump loyalists in congress to get him a second term. that was the plan. and this is a memo written up by jenna ellis, who was before becoming in trump's orbit, she was a traffic lawyer. so this is the kind of thing that they were coming up with, and a lot of it was really shoddy legal work, but it doesn't matter because it almost worked. if it wasn't for a few key people standing up. >> evan, another story we will be following, another courtroom drama. should the house select committee refer mark meadows for criminal contempt of congress? that's a question for congresswoman and former trump impeachment manager stacey plaskett. she is next. in her clear blue s. the legends she births on hometown fields. and the future she promises. when we made grand wagoneer, proudly assembled in america, we knew no object would ever rank with the best things in this country. but we believed we could make something worthy of their spirit. ordinary tissues burn when theo blows. so dad bought puffs plus lotion, and rescued his nose. with up to 50% more lotion puffs bring soothing softness and relief. a nose in need deserves puffs indeed. the last day of vacation is still vacation. with guaranteed 4pm checkout at fine hotels + resorts properties. one of the many reasons you're with amex platinum. there are new developments tonight in the investigation of the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. steve bannon appearing in court today after being indicted for contempt of congress while other witnesses like mark meadows could face contempt charges of their own. let's discuss now. house delegate stacey plaskett is here. she served as an impeachment manager in the former president's second impeachment trial over what happened on january 6th. thank you for joining us. >> good to see you. >> i want to start with this reporting from jon karl of abc, reporting that the white house chief of staff mark meadows sent the then-vice president's top aide a memo from the trump campaign with a plan to undo biden's election win. the committee is going to meet tomorrow about him. so what do they do? >> well, i think they are going to do what they've continued to do, which is try to gather as much evidence, corroborating evidence, really pressuring witnesses to testify based upon information that they are uncovering. you know, we talk about steve bannon, mark meadows, but the committee, the select committee on january 6th has interviewed 150 witnesses who have cooperated thus far, and that includes plenty of trump former loyalists and individuals who worked in that administration. so i'm really believing that they will be on track for, at the end of the summer, beginning of the next fall, to have a report, which really shows not only what happened, but remember the other portion of the select committee is to make recommendations to congress on how to ensure that our democracy stays intact. >> well, look, you know, mark meadows was a congressman for seven years. i mean, he knows how congressional subpoenas work. how they are supposed to work. what do you think of his defiance? >> i think his defiance is, you know, i served with him on the oversight committee. i think he is someone who enamored with the president and with power, who is someone who has become a sycophant and is following the orders of donald trump, even after he has left office. i think, you know, the limelight that many of them believe that they have from doing this really doesn't let them see the long-term damage they are doing to the democracy and, in the end, the stain that's going to be on their names as traitors to our nation. >> congresswoman, steve bannon was defiant leaving court today after being charged with two counts of contempt of congress. do you think other witnesses will follow his lead or wait to see what happens? >> well, i think we are seeing what's happening, and that is, is that the grand jury has indicted him. there will be a charge -- there are charges now, and that case is going to move forward in criminal charges against steve bannon. i don't think at the end of the day that most people want to have criminal charges against them. you know, steve bannon is a special kind of crazy in the trump orbit, and is willing to be as performative as possible to the end game of what they believe is trump ascendancy or steve bannon's continued influence in american politics. >> you were at the white house today when the president signed the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill into law. what do you think of this massive bipartisan achievement, congresswoman? >> i think this was a glorious day for the american people. i think that as the bill states, this is an investment. an infrastructure investment and jobs act. that's the formal name of the bill. this and build back better plan are going to bring 1.5 million jobs per year for the next decade. that's 15 million new jobs in america. increasing the gdp over that same period of time by $3 trillion. and that's from independent analysis of moody's, which came out on november 4th. you know, i think what the president is doing is absolutely game changing and really creating a continuing american innovation. i think it's so interesting, don, that you first talked about select committee and then talked about the infrastructure bill. you know, as the president continually says, president biden, that we're in an inflection point. and during the ceremony they talked about other inflection points where other presidents and other administrations and congresses have invested in this country. but i think it's also important to note that, you know, after the civil rights movement, we had both the civil rights bill, the voting rights act, which were defensive mechanisms to protect our democracy while at the same time extending the great society to bring more inclusion, more investment into our country. and again we're doing this right now, right? we have the select committee and we're going to continue to push for a voting rights bill for george floyd justice in policing to protect our democracy, to shore up the areas which are frayed, which are still developing while at the same time investing in american innovation and as the president said to ensure that we can always bet on america to be the forerunners in the competitive race in our global society. so i believe in just sitting it there with my other colleagues that, yes, we have done what's needed to be done for this investment in our infrastructure and to include jobs, and we're going to do what is necessary to get build back better plan across the line to ensure that american jobs and american families can take advantage of the baseline that wave put for them. >> listen, i caught that bit of criticism and i receive it. so, you know what you say when you get a message from church? i received that. i got it. thank you, congresswoman. always a pleasure to see you. >> thank you. a rare sight in washington, d.c. lawmakers from both sides of the aisle gathering for a president biden signing of the infrastructure package. will we see another display of bipartisanship any time soon? 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>> i think that it gets harder. it gets harder self-evidently because these bills were supposed to be together and they aren't. the hard-core infrastructure bill signed today. the president's get about a sentence sometimes. bill clinton used to say that. lincoln saved the union, fdr won the war, joe biden went a long way towards writing his sentence with this piece of legislation. i think the next piece of legislation is going to be more contentious again, obviously, but joe biden got 81 million votes. a lot of these measures on their own are popular and i think the sudden evangelical fervor of the fiscal hawks on the right is pretty rich. when republicans who spend as much money as they spent in the last four, five years say, oh, we suddenly decided we can't spend this much money, reminds me of the great line in tom sawyer when sawyer says, huck finn, a preacher came through town that was so good that even huck finn was saved until tuesday. so these folks are saved until tuesday. but this is broadly popular stuff. some of it will get through. some of it won't. but guess what? you and i are having a coherent conversation about the allocation of public resources for public good. we aren't talking about an insurrection. we aren't talking about a president who pops off demonizing other people. we're actually talking as a mature democracy. and that's something that we have to guard and try to nurture as much as possible. >> a president who actually gets something done. in the conversations we have had, because, you know, he doesn't tout and some folks' estimation what he does, sell the message. but this is a actually doing a what president does rather than appearing in front of the cameras. you are the perfect to talk about this. i mentioned you advise the president. there is a cnn poll. it shows president biden's approval rating at just 45%, jon. do you think this victory will change that number because most americans won't feel the impact of this bill for quite some time. meanwhile, inflation is at a 30-year high. gas prices are through the roof. you know what i'm saying? >> absolutely. look, it's a tough, tough period. there is no doubt about that. the political marketplace tends not to give you credit for a while and then you also don't get credit in many cases for keeping bad things from happening. and the biggest bad thing that joe biden is keeping from happening is tearing up the constitution. i think we -- we have talked about this before. i think we have to look at this not in a week-to-week way, but a decade-long way, and realize that ten months ago, right, ten months ago a mob attacked the capitol and tried to overturn an election and we now know from the reporting you have been talking about that there was a lot of high brow non-rioting way to do the same thing. and so my own view is that to some extent joe biden is not on trial. we are as a country. can we suppress our appetite and our ambition and our instant gratification to see that give and take is essential? and you can't just take all the time in a democracy. there has to be a moment where you give. and that may sound, you know, sentimental or something, but it has the virtue of being true. >> jon meacham, i love our conversations. come back more often. thank you, sir. always a pleasure. >> thank you. we'll be right back. 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