normal. the family was nwas not interviewed. that is a key zudistinction. lie an laundrie has not been named a suspect. this is about criminality, okay? not cancelling someone. there is a burden of proof here. as we're going to show you, the investigation will not be as simple as it may seem. and, yet, the fiance is obviously someone who has to know something about gabby's last whereabouts despite leaving her and returning alone from a summer long road trip. so for now, he is a person of interest. now that designation doesn't allow police to limit someone's movements. which is why he was able to go wherever he wanted. now here is something else. there is a lot of hype surrounding the primed presser. do not expect a lot of new information. en that is not necessarily because the family doesn't know anything. they have been instructed to remain silent in the face of police questioning about petito by their counsel. why? we'll get into that in a second as well. but there is something that the family did offer, according to the attorney. that has been at least reported. this stems from the shocking news that we all learned friday night. when i had gabby's stepfather on the show. it was this news from the police in north port florida when brew an was last seen. >> the laundrie family asked police to come to the home, is that accurate? >> that is accurate. >> why? >> they are now clauming that they have not seen their son since tuesday. >> what were the circumstances surrounding their understanding of where he had gone and why they had waited three days? >> some of this we're still trying to figure out. we've been trying all week to talk to his family, to talk to brian. certainly we would love for them to share with us what he shared with them. the family did tell what he termed authorities last tuesday night that there their son had not come home. who exactly? hopefully that gets answered tomorrow. now tonight north port police spokesman denied that it was them who was told. the family told us nothing tuesday. we briefly talked with them last saturday. and to my knowledge, not again until friday. so hopefully we get an answer. s it is really important. it may shift the understanding about how this guy was able to be out of pocket for so many days. another question in an intensifying investigation to be sure. so the discovery of a body that the fbi believes to be gabby may have been helped by a tip from youtubers. there was a family that posted videos of their travels and they captured what looks like petito's van in the spread creek camping area in the early evening of august 27th. they remembered it when they heard about petito's van on the news this month. and they reported it to the fbi. authorities searched the spread creek area that is where they found the body on sunday. another key piece of evidence, at least a key piece of the puzzle. it may offer some insight into gabby and brian's relationship y is that important? well, it's fundamentally important in understanding the circumstances that may have led not only to their separation but her demise. the august 12 incident when petito and laundrie were confront bud police after engaging in some sort of altercation. we now have the you about stander's call, a 911 call that led to that stopst here it is. >> if believed, that is called an assault. he said laundry slapped petito. it was petito who slapped laundrie. now did the witness get it wrong? or is this the way it was reported to the police? and if so, could there be an explanation for why you would hear a lie from gabby petito about her own assault. the answer to that is yes. very often in domestic situation situations women will deny what happened. why? because they're frayed. that's why. is that what happened here? we don't know yet. now investigators on taund a search warrant for an external hard drive found in the van that could also shed more light. did someone kill petito? if so, how would prosecutors prove it? they just found who they believe is her body. we don't know why she died yet. there is going to be a process here. the investigation is not going to be as simple, i promise you. that let's get confirmation on that from a better mind. cnn legal analyst and criminal defense attorney joey jackson. you know what? it's been a minute. good to see you, brother. hope all is well. thank you for helping me. >> that's the reason to watch the press conference. i told them not to talk to the police. people are going to hear that and say that is a shame. >> i understand there are two imperatives. everybody wants to hear to go out flovein front of the camera. i miss her so much. bring her home from a defense perspective. what you want to do is you want to exercise the right we all have we don't use which is to remain silent. no one can say you're unconsistent with facts that you gave. >> because you're shady. they must know something. otherwise you talk or you'd have nothing else to hide. the pub luck can believe what the public believes. what i will tell and what i tell a client is there is a courtroom. that is the forum by which we determine whether someone is guilty. what the public perception is often different from the facts as they come out in the courtroom. and here's the case in point. you indicated right that family says well we did notify the police on tuesday. what has been reported? they delayed it until friday. who is right? who is wrong? you tell your client and family wants the measure of justice, chris. i get it. there is a wonderful woman who is not here who had a life to live. and they want answers. however, that's again in the realm of public perception. i want to operate as an attorney in the realm of an attorney. tell your clunient to not say a word. that's what he did. >> even if you did nothing wrong. >> even if you did nothing wrong. what good shall come? >> you can help find out who may have hurt your fiance. >> exactly. everyone wants that. but when you are accused and you're going to be in a courtroom and they're going to be eyes on you and accusations thrown at you, i'm always know what i said. i don't know what chris cuomo heard. and so words can be misinterpreted. words can be twisted when you remain silent. it does not allow an opportunity for that. that's why we all -- all of us lawyers say keep your mouth shut. >> i get the answer. you certainly would get an a on the written exam of how to practice as a defense practitioner. however, you have ever had a case where somebody's loved one went missing and they would not participate in the search? >> it's not a matter of this. i had cases where people are dead at the hands of arguably whether it was that they were missing or a result of a sexual assault, whether it was the result of any particular facts, the end result remains the same. everybody wants their measure of justice. and in a courtroom is where we find it. we can't find it here. we search, we look, et cetera. we find it there. these cases turn on many nuances which the public never gets to know. >> i spoke to several investigators. they said, you know this is not so easy. what do you mean? this is not going to be that easy, why? >> so why didn't they bring him in right away when she was mis missing? they knew she was gone. so now you have a body. you have a crime. not necessarily. they have to determine why if that's gabby why she died right, before they can say it is a crime. not necessarily? so understand this. it's important for everybody to know this. when the police arrest you, it's not beyond reasonable doubt. sut not because of uncertainty. it's because two of things. reason to believe that a crime was committed, number one. and that the accused committed it, number two. we call that probable cause. it is known to everyone out there sitting on the couch. as a result of that, all you need is what we call prima fascia. no the to get lat in but the prim prima fascia. that established something is amiss. i think you're responsible, sir, you're coming with me. >> so you don't need an eyewitness. you don't need forensics. >> this is another common misunderstanding. circumstantial evidence is evidence f i came in here, right, to have the pleasure of your company. right? during the show. and when i came in here it was completely dry outside. i go back outside and it's wet everywhere but it's not raining. what could we reasonably conclude? we can conclude that rained while i was talking to chris. that is the bottom line. we know that occurred. that stands to reason in an area where not a lot of eyes were. she is found in a park. the result of that national park, she's there, shrubbery and everything else. it's the difference from the city. where there is surveillance all over the place. again, circumstantial. you left with me. that was back in june. we went on a trip. we cataloged every day in instagram. and what we were doing. you did it repeatedly. and then we went into the cove. one person is dead. your home and then you go on the run. circumstantial evidence. not direct evidence. but reason to believe, you know what? fulfill the analogy. it is raining out sued when talking to chris. that is circumstantial evidence which is powerful. >> so they didn't arrest when she went missing. now they have a body. they don't know where he is? >> right. >> but they could arrest. could they keep him and make a case? we'll see. that goes to the evidence. ordinarily here, someone says it wasn't me. i had nothing to do with it. they find that person's dn hachlt or other forensic material. now what? that's not the case here. of course he was with her. so gets a little more challenging. so far the worst fact for brian other than the existence of the relationship, laundrie is that car being seen in the same location where the body was found. he returned in that car to his home. that takes us to the time line. >> there is a number of things that stand out. you look at the time line on august 12th. police in utah make the stop. petito talks. >> hold on. should they have arrested him? and then they see, they find them, they stop them. both say that they had an altercation. she says i did. they had a 911 call? the answer to that question of could they have? is absolutely. st. >> you and i know that police have a tremendous amount of discretion. i'm going to give you a break. you separate. that is what they opted to do. i go against the police all the time. professional doing their job. if someone is motivated to kill for whatever reason, right, we get into an argument. they cannot blame the police. his his action that's led to her death, no the that the utah police did not arrest him on that particular day. >> good point. >> what stands out to you? >> we know about the text misages. we know about the video. the last text and everything else. i'm going to tell what you stands out to me. what stands out to me are a couple things. number one, you're with me. we catalog every step of this trip, chris. every step. all of these things. and then it goes cold. guess what? guess what? you're home with your family in florida. you don't say anything with respect to where your fiancee is and now you're on the run. why is that important to me? it goes to consciousness of guilt. in the event you did nothing, what you are running away from? and therefore, given the nature of the relationship given it could have been isolated or if did you nothing wrong, why are you in the wind? and the defense is going to have to explain that should they find him. the family made known, is he in hiding or mising? there is a big difference. >> if the family is -- if he's in hiding and the family had something to do with it. now they have exposure. but can you arrest because the person who is last known to be with the dead person ran. so he has this. it's not your arresting predicated upon that. it is sort of like a number of facts that build up. those are what -- that's the circumstantial thaefdz is powerful in this case. we would like every case, whether it is more witnesses to sat was chris cuomo. i saw him, i know what he was wearing. you don't have that. so police have to do their work in order to build the case. and you tell me. you're traveling with me cross country. all of a sudden, right? you come home to your family. i'm missing. someone found dead, your gone, what does that look like? does it get you to your point? it doesn't get you to proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. does it get you to my point? reason to believe that a crime is committed. >> and you did it. so there is probable cause. the next big hurdle is are there areas for reasonable doubt? we're nowhere near that point in the investigation. but that will be the huge hurdle for prosecutors to make in the case. so fit minds up that brian laundrie is the defendant in this case. this is what his whole lawyer situation will be about. joey will be back for that. >> always. >> appreciate you. >> always. >> always a credit to the audience. all right. now, we're going to be following this. we're going to follow the story that is on top of all of us. right? this is the covid command center. and our kids are obviously our biggest concern and we have new information. a major vaccine announcement from fizer today. with more children hospitalized than ever before, we're up 240% in kid cases since july. now, of course, they're back in school. but how are they doing in school? could shots start for our kids? could it be by halloween? let's bring them a former biden covid adviser to figure out what we know, what we need to know and his concerns. next. you're paying for that! introducing behr dynasty™, the best of behr. exclusively at the home depot. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ got a couple of bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. what do you say we see what this bird can do? woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. looks like we're walking, kid. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ so, you have diabetes, here are some easy rules. no sugar. no pizza. no foods you love. stressed? no stress. exercise. but no days off! easy, no? no. no. no. no. but with freestyle libre 14 day, you can take the mystery out of your diabetes. now you know. sir, do you know what you want to order? yes. freestyle libre 14 day. try it for free. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ deposit, plan and pay with easy tools from chase. simplicity feels good. chase. make more of what's yours. tums vs. mozzarella stick when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums chewy bites. fast heartburn relief in every bite. crunchy outside, chewy inside. ♪ tums, tums, tums, tums ♪ tums chewy bites pfizer will authorize the vaccine for kids ages 5 to 11. first to be released on kids is a low dosage of pfizer's vaccine is safe and effective. remember, kids that age will not get what teens and adults get. kids could be vaccinated as early as halloween. we're not too far off from that date. the unfortunate reality is cases among kids suince july. you'll see more and more kids getting hospitalized. it was different earlier. so this is more hospitalizations than any other time during this pandemic. they're all in school. delta is tougher on them than the earlier it ragss. okay? so down the line won't help the surge that we're in right now. i want to bring in dr. zeke emanuel. >> me getting the vaccine, not easy. getting me to give one to my kids really not easy. so people are going to hear this data. they'll say, yeah, it's not peer you are view. there are hundreds of millions of people that get the vaccine as adults. should there be concerned grandparents? >> well, look, we've tested the vaccine on 2300 or so children. 5 to 11 years old. they got, as you point out, one third of the dose that is being given to adults at higher doses. they had more fever and transitory side effects. but this seemed to produce a good antibody response. they should definitely go with it. because as you point out, we had 225,000 kids with covid. it's a serious issue among children. and the best way to protect them is with this vaccine. there is parental hesitancy. >> let's talk about the parental hesitancy. this is from a kaiser foundation poll. the kaiser family foundation. when you are going to get your kids vaccinated? put up a poll. right away, only a quarter. 26%. wait and see, 40%. only if required, definitely not. 9 and 25%. not good numbers. actually not as good as we saw even early on with the vaccine during trumpdom. what does this mean to you? >> well that, is going to be hard to get these children vaccinated. just as hard as adults. the fact is if 40% of adults are not going to get their kids vaccinated, they're going to take a wait and see attitude. that's going to be trouble. that is going to get the vaccine out of more than 28 million kids between 5 and 11 who could get the vaccine. 10 million don't get the vaccine. they're not protecting the larger community by vaccinating children. we're 60% of the population. we're willing to get a vaccine. but moving beyond that. this is very difficult. and i think the biden administration is going to end up having to try to persuade people through mandates and they've done he had caution and made it free. they just done about everything they can short of a broader mandate. got news is that states like mississippi and all other vaccines have very high coverage and let's hope they see the light to protect chuildren. >> in alabama, you're losing more lufz than gaining new lives. >> the minority and doctor zeke emanuel. thank you for the unsight always. >> thank you, chris. >> all right. look, the big lie. it's part of why the pandemic is killing us. okay? there is poison politics. severing false. don't believe it. don't listen. don't do. it's not a consequence dense that this is promoted by people not in power. trump namely. still trying to get the election overturned. it's been a year. we have new details tonight about an attempt by a lawyer tied to trum p to help the vice president back in the day a six step plan to overthrow democracy. i will reveal it to you next. somewhere out west a lone river flows carving its way through time and if you were to find it you would taste, pure agave nectar and lime lone river ranch water is mealtime a struggle? introducing ore-ida potato pay. where ore-ida golden crinkles are your crispy currency to pay for bites of this... ...with this. when kids won't eat dinner, potato pay them to. ore-ida. win at mealtime. at heinz, every ketchup starts with our same tomatoes. but not every tomato ends in the same kind of heinz ketchup. because a bit of magic unfolds when there's a ketchup for everyone. when we found out our son had autism, his future became my focus. lavender baths calmed him. so we made a plan to turn bath time into a business. ♪ ♪ find a northwestern mutual advisor at nm.com a newly revealed memo from one of former president trump's lawyers adds to the pile of damming evidence. showing just how far trump and co went to push the big lie. now you may remember this guy. john eastman. area speaking at trump's rally. "washington post" journalist. we now know that in it two days before that, eastman handed then vp pence a two page memo. detailed overturn the election through a six olivia trou is a former pence adviser. the idea he would accept this memo. put with him calling dan quayle is there any way around this? is there any wau way around this. the fact this document xusthis exists is outrageous. it's on so many different levels. on full display just how close we came to a moment where there would have been the impeding of the transition of power. and there is full training of our democratic and individuals and so, you know, i have no doubt that i'm sure mike pence and in reading this document starts to make the phone calls. now we have more context on why, perhaps, he had the conversation with dan quayle. i wonder if he went through the document and discussed it with him. how many other people knew about this document? it looks like senator lee did. how many elected officials knew this plan existed. this is the republican playbook firsthand and my concern reading this document is that to me i'm concerned about this being the republican playbook for future elections. here they laid it out in terms of the way they've been behaving and the big lie and the fact this continues, this legacy lives on. >> the mike pence that you knew and served, the idea they would entertain as planned, we should put the plan up for people. put the full screen up of this. open and count the ballots. throw out the electoral college votes of seven states by allege theg have competing electors. now that is a very arcane thing. we know why that is in there. declare the trump the winner with 232 votes to 222 in the face of howls of from democrats destroying democracy will do that. send the matter to the house. demand normal rules so gop majority can re-elect trump. do this without asking permission from congress or court. the pence that you knew, can you imagine him reading something like this, not telling people openly that it was given to him and then making a call like that to dan quayle looking for counsel on how to get away from his constitutional duty? >> no. i can't. to be honest. i think it just goes to show, you know, what people are capable of. when they're in a position of power. you know, i don't know what was going through mike pence's head. but the fact he still hasn't come forward, that he hasn't actually addressed the fact that by the twha document existed and the big lie and the election integrity lie lives on he hasn't acknowledged that knowing everything that he knows that happened is just appalling and i think it should be disqualifying honestly if he does plan to pursue 2024. >> when you think about why would he not have blown the whistle. you talk will then you see republicans and the big lie. 78% don't believe he legitimately won the election. could that be the reason why you don't say anything about this memo? you even try to help after the former president sends people to hang you at the capitol? >> yeah, it's about retaining power. that's what it is for all of these individuals. unfortunately. and it's the aspect of our democracy. because that is what is happening here. and also the expense of the security of our country. it is creating divisions and it's creating, you know, constant threats on the homeland, honestly from that perspective. that's because people believe that this election was stolen. this is how we're going to continue to move forward. it's a threat. it's an on going threat. >> three of the four people would want to vote for him. over half of them believe there is solid proof. there is none. olivia troy, thank you very much. appreciate you. >> thanks for having me. >> our next story we have to get into is hard. and it demands more answers. image that's are causing controversy about how haitian migrants were trying to cross the border from if mexico into texas. they're being treated. it's a throw back to a kind of barbarism and we have to be better than. we have to call them horrific. the truth hint the pictures. and why it's more it looks like at the first glance. that's next. today let's paint with new behr dynasty™... so that you can be proud of your walls. go ahead, throw your wine on it. what? it's also scuff resistant. you're paying for that! introducing behr dynasty™, the best of behr. exclusively at the home depot. i became a sofi member because i needed to consolidate my credit card debt. i needed just one simple way to pay it all off. it was an easy decision to apply with sofi loans, just based on the interest rate and how much i would be saving. there was only one that stood out and one that actually made sense and that was sofi personal loans. it felt so freeing. i felt like i was finally out of this neverending trap of interest and payments and debt. ♪ growing up in a little red house, on the edge of a forest in norway, there were three things my family encouraged: kindness, honesty and hard work. over time, i've come to add a fourth: be curious. be curious about the world around us, and then go. go with an open heart, and you will find inspiration anew. viking. exploring the world in comfort. ♪ i'm a reporter for the new york times. if you just hold it like this. yeah. ♪ i love finding out things that other people don't want me to know. mm-hmm. [beep] i just wanted to say... ♪ find yourself in these situations and see who you are. and that's just part of the bargain. ♪ we really are in the throes of this country of figuring out who we are. what we're about. and i was taken aback. by a single image that should make you pay attention to a problem. this one. there's a lot here. yeah. as an image, it does smack of a by gone era of slavery aided by reports of people being beaten with a rioting crop or the r reigns most likely. you may be drown to the desperation of a man trying to escape. others in the desperation of keeping our borders safe of what i believe the former president tried to depict as a brown menace at our border. it is not use lated. some 12,000 souls are living in texas. they're not hiding. they're looking for asylum in this country. each one of them a puzzle this administration that those of both parties of decades doesn't have any good answers for. >> i've seen some of the footage. i don't have the full context. i can't imagine what context would make that appropriate. but i don't have additional details. and certainly i don't have additional context. i don't think nun'anyone that s that footage thinks it's acceptable or appropriate. >> somebody did, right? because that's how they decided to deal with the situation. the question becomes get to the bottom of it. find out who said it was okay. why was it okay? tell us. the statement from dhs says they don't quote or tolerate the abuse of migrants in our custody and we take these allegations very serious. they also say they're investigating and will have people on scene to make sure their rules are being followed. what are the rules? this is more than a picture. it's reality. people crossing, clinging to food. that's what they're holding over their heads. food. not bags of drugs. the agents trying to turn them around and send them back across the boarder. that is their job. but it's what is being done to allow this country to process the need. we can't do better than horse back? you see the video. you need to see the confluence. all right? everything going on at once. all captured in this one image. okay? see the horse. the use is common and necessary along this part of the border. the horse is there because a wall was never going to be enough. sounded simple. it was simplistic. we were never a wall away. we spent billions on technology, drones, helicopters, sensors, blimps, cameras. even, yes, fencing. but given the terrain, the work of patrolling often has to be done on horse back. look at the agent's face. what do you see? frustration. anger. they've been put in a bad position. they're overwhelmed. the system is overwhelms. i've been to the border many times. i've sat overnight in arizona. watching people come overnight. trying to figure out what is drugs, what is migrants? how do you coordinate? these guys patrol tens and tens of miles alone. no backup. and then if they do catch people, doing the wrong thing, illegally, you don't have the agents. you don't have the courts. you don't have the resources. you don't have the judges. you don't have the places to put them. you don't have the support for their health. you don't have the caseworkers. you don't have any of the things that you need nor do you have the laws. what is asylum? who can decide it? where should it be done? nobody wants to do the hard work. they just want to pander don't you kcare about these people. look how they're being treated. the other side says do you waly want these people coming to take your jobs and kill your women? and we're stuck there. and we're stuck there. because nobody wants to make a change. nobody wants to die on this hill. and nobody wants to do anything small and incremental measure. just change the laws. just change the support staff. they want it to be big, impressive. so that picture tells us that. could have been taken 100 years ago. and here we are today. we're not going to get anywhere better until you demand it. we'll be right back after this. 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one! two! three! four! five! 72,807! 72,808... dollars. yep... everything hurts. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ next month. family and friends, they honor our fallen law enforcement officers whose names were engraved on to the national law enforcement over's memorial. of the 394 oufrs that are in the line of duty and names were added to that wall, 182 of them died of covid-19 related deaths. one of the officers who lost his life to the dleadly virus is charles rob roberts w he spoke to his family last year in the aftermath of the death. just so interesting and brave to honor his dad for his 12th birthday. he said he wanted to get vaccinated. gavin and his mom alice join us now. happy birthday, little man. i know that this was hard but boy, oh, boy, your mom must be so proud and as a dad myself, to know that you want to do s something like that gets a lot of respect, a lot of respect. why did you do it? >> i did it to help our community and other communities to get out there to fight the virus. >> how did it feel? >> i feel pretty good about my myself, i have a headache and sore throat. >> mom, what did it mean to you when you heard your boy say that's what he wanted? >> i was saying before there wasn't really ever a time when we didn't think that would be what he would do for his 12th birthday. it just is a big sense of relief. not that we'll do anything different but it's a sense of relief because he's the final person in our family who needs to get vaccinated. it was a sense of relief and just the right thing to do so it was never a question that is what he would be doing. >> how are you doing? i see the picture of your husband behind you. i see the flag. how are you holding up? how is the family coping? >> i mean, we move forward every d day. we do it a day at a time. i'm back teaching. it's nice to be around the kids again and being appreciative in school. i think they feel differently about learning now. when it's taken away, you don't realize you miss it until you miss it. it's good to be back but lots of laundry, lunch making, sports. days go by fast. >> what does it mean to take the family to see the wall next month. >> it's funny, my husband and i visited the wall, either just married or right before we had been married and it was so special to him and i, you know e went along and i thought it was cool but i never thought that his name would be on it and i don't think he thought that, either. but we never had that so this was part of closure for us. it will be nice to see his name, the vigil will be nice. it will be one step sttowards closure. i don't know if those are the words. >> last time we talked your words were so poignant so many were moved. there was one person who probably surprised you when they called you to talk about it. >> that's for sure. so right after i guess when we were in the interview last time, mr. biden had left me a message and i had called him back and he answered, which shocked me, and he had invited us to the white house and said, you know, when i become president, i want you to be our guests. so we're hoping that can happen. i know now he's a little bit busy, but we do hope that at some point during his hopefully eight years in there, that we'll get to visit because my kids definitely remember that promise. governor phil murphy called me today when i was teaching. so he left a really kind message, as well. so i really appreciate the empathy shown in these political leaders and it's really touching to me and extremely meaningful. >> well, the white house watches the show and i'm sure they're seeing this right now and i would bet that i'm doing to get a message and you probably will, too and when you're down there, i hope you get to have a special tour and day. gavin, i was going to tell you in the break but i'll tell you now. all any parent wants is for their kids to believe life is about making a difference and helping those around you. and when you decided to get the vaccine, you didn't just help yourself, you are sending a message about what matters to you about helping other people. your father committed his whole life to helping other people in one of the most dangerous ways and that is amazing you did that. if people do it at 52, it's amazing. let alone a 12. happy birthday and thank you for giving a gift to everybody else by showing it's the right thing to do. al alice, god bless you and good luck to the pham. >> i thanks for having us on. >> let's see who gets a call first. we'll be in touch. we'll take a quick break so al last can talk to the white house and we'll do the handoff. new? 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i guess it will be up to the fbi to tell us what is next. "don lemon tonight" starts and the coverage of gabby petito will be part of it. that is the latest priiece. >> you got the breaking news. that's it. this story, we talked about it a little bit today, chris and i taped our podcast today. we talked about it a little l bit today. for me, you're the attorney. it seems unusual that someone who was possibly the last person to see gabby definitely before she disappeared and possibly or probably before she perished is somehow allowed to go scott free, roam scott free and get

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