the production company podot. also with us is lewis goodall from the news agents podcast and tony pastor, the man behind goalhanger, which is the podcast production company he set up with gary lineker and makes all sorts of hit podcasts, including the rest is history, the rest is politics. there's something very intimate about listening to a podcast — i mean, in many ways, a bit like radio — where people have their headphones on, they're cooking, they're commuting, they're walking the dog and they get very, very close to the people in theirears. they develop a relationship with the people they're listening to on a regular basis. and we find that when we do live events, a lot of the audience comes up to our hosts and treats them like friends, like they already know them and we have to sort of remind ourtalent, our hosts, that, you know, to expect this and it's just one of those quirks that, in part, i think it's the nature of the way you listen to the shows. here's a quote to start us off. it's from an annual report on digital news from the reuters institute for the study ofjournalism. it came out on monday and describes news podcasting as, "a bright spot for publishers which attracts "younger, well—educated listeners". given that there aren't so many bright spots for many news organisations at the moment, that is something to hold on to, and i wanted to open up to everyone first. lewis, you're here. you've covered many an election over your very young life. you make me sound so old! yeah, not that old, but you've managed to get in on a few elections. yeah. but could you have ever seen that podcasting would be so central to this one? well, i definitely didn't foresee that it would be so central to my one in terms of this election. but, no, i think that this is — this is, without doubt, the first real podcast election, ithink, really, in the sense that there are now so many providers and so many shows offering really, really top—class analysis of the election — and not just analysis as well. i mean, i've been travelling around the country since basically the start of the campaign, reporting, and i think that is also the kind of newer thing — and something especially on news agents we try and do, which is do our own stuff — not just commenting and talking about whatever's happened to have happened in the campaign or other people's journalism, but to do our own journalism. and i think that's a really exciting part and it's probably the next frontier, really, of podcasting, notjust for the election, but in general as well. tony, let's go back to you, because you founded goalhanger with gary lineker a few years back. you now make a number of podcasts — the rest is politics, the rest is entertainment, the rest is football, the rest is money and the empire podcast. ijust wonder when you go back to when you founded the company with gary lineker, what was your goal? well, frankly, it was to be a tv production company specialising largely in sport so, i mean, it's a very strange journey we've taken. but about 2019, we started to experiment with podcasting and it's got an amazing attribute, podcasting — it's the first time i'd worked in the media where we didn't need a commissioner, we didn't have to persuade somebody of the merits of our idea, we didn't have to persuade them to — to give us a budget to make something, we could just do it ourselves. and, of course, there are dangers with that because there's no intermediary checking that our ideas aren't nonsense but, at the same time, if we have an idea that we really like, we can back it and take the risk ourselves, own the ip, you know — terribly modern media way of describing these things, but we retain our own ip. we take a risk, we put shows out there and we see if we can grow an audience. ip being �*intellectual property'. and ijust wonder, was there a moment when you thought, "0k, goodness. "podcasts are going to become our central thing. "they are going to become the thing that our company "is known for more than anything else"? yes, there was a very distinct moment and that was the rest is history, tom holland, dominic sandbrook, which we started three or four years ago. it suddenly exploded in popularity. there was a really remarkable breakthrough. it suddenly went from being, you know, two middle—aged white guys chatting about carthage to suddenly having a massive, massive appeal. evidently, it's very popular. and if that's the content, let me ask you about some of the organisation behind the content. for example, what's the business model here? how does goalhanger make money from the podcast and how do you remunerate the presenters? so, i mean, the business model is, in some ways, quite traditional. it's an advertiser—funding modeh _ there's two forms of advertising on a podcast. one is what you would understand by a spot ad — that's just a random 30—second ad that would appear in the show and would suggest you drink a certain brand of beer or a soft drink. and then, there is something called the host—read ad — that is when the actual presenter of the show, the host of the show, endorses something specific. so, you know, i won't name them since we're on the bbc but you know, we've had travel brands, we've had entertainment brands and the beauty of that is that the endorsement by the host — and we reserve the right to decline to do any of those we wish, so we do them on a case—by—case basis — but they're four times as valuable as a regulation spot ad. it is worth bringing in nick hilton here from podot, just to give us some of the kind of context for these news podcasts — nick, if you will — because i know you were previously broadcast editor at the spectator but now, you are a big podcast specialist, make a load yourself. but the stats are quite murky, aren't they, in terms of, you know, how many people are actually listening? what are the figures and what's a good numberfor a podcast? we generally say that any| podcast with over 20,000 listeners per episode can start to wash its face. . below that, basically, . there's no obvious route to commercialisation, certainly not through the various agency advertisers — who, i for instance, acast, who i believe are partners with goalhanger. - certainly, they won't entertain a podcast less than that. - it just doesn't work for them. so, you either do little - bespoke deals — and we do a lot of that — or you go - for quantity, and that's kind of the model that goalhanger has gone for and the same i with the news agents. on the numbers, i can tell you we do 38 million downloads a month. in fact, we just did that this month, and that's a record. the rest is politics does about ten million downloads a month. the rest is history does about 12 million downloads a month. the rest is football and ..entertainment do about four million each and, frankly, you can work the money out relatively easily because it's all done on a thing called a cpm, which is a cost per mille, which i discovered, having not studied latin at school, is a cost per thousand. so, in other words, you get paid by the number of thousands of people — you get paid a set amount for every 1,000 people who hearan ad. so, actually, you know, with a little bit of working out, you can get — you can do the maths relatively easily. the rest is politics does about 700,000 listeners an episode with another 250,000 watching on youtube, so we're about a million people. ok, so, yeah. well, i want to bring in lewis goodall now, co—host of the news agents made by global, also an lbc presenter. full disclosure — also an ex—colleague of mine when we worked together at newsnight back in new broadcasting house. i remember when you launched that show — suddenly, you, our other colleague emily maitlis — still your colleague... yes. ..and jon sopel, three bbc people on those billboards everywhere, as far as i could tell — across london, anyway — wherever you drove, into the airport, practically, you were there. but in terms of what you're doing differently, you're three ex—bbc people who are now doing something different outside the bbc? how would you categorise it? i mean, it is different because it's a different medium and we've had to sort of find our way in terms of doing that and doing journalism in a medium that none of us had primarily operated in, inevitably is different. but i wouldn't characterise — i wouldn't say that what we're doing is fundamentally different to that which we want to do at the bbc, certainly not from my point of view, which is, you know, fundamentally, in my heart of hearts, i'm a reporter. i want to do journalism and i want to tell stories. and what's fantastic, actually, i found about news agents — and, again, i suppose, in a way, i'd like to think this is perhaps where the sort of distinctive space that we occupy in terms of the sort of news podcasting market in britain — which is that, as i said at the very beginning, we are doing our own original journalism and our own reporting and i have found that, actually, of all — i mean, i've done, you know, tv, radio, podcasting — the great, great thing about reporting in terms of podcasting is you have space and you have time and you have texture. i came back, from just before the general election, doing a piece in tbilisi in georgia, you know, telling the story about why that matters and why uk audiences should care about it. we gave it a full 45, 50 minutes. one of the proudest things that i've done in my career. and you can do that in terms of building the texture, building the voices in a way that, actually, ithink, is unique, actually. and you clearly have a very loyal audience — an audience that's come to this podcast and loves this podcast. you've talked about podcasting being the future of news. why do you say that? in an era where we know what is happening to tv news, in particular — which i still continue to love and, in so many ways, as i say, it continues to be in my heart — we are aware of what the demographics are and we are also aware of what the demographics are for podcasting, and one of the most... those demographics are that older people are watching... older people are watching news and, you know, frankly, in each and every year it's getting smaller for a self—evident reason. but we also know in terms of podcasting what it is in terms — the demographics are, and they're much younger. and so, the recognition that you get from younger people — students and so on — who have started to even say, you know, come up and say, "this is my main news source "now" — that is really gratifying. it also sort of adds to the sort of responsibility of what you're doing. it's notjust something that you're sort of churning out each and every day. it's sort of a supplement to other news that people will have got. you've got to think, actually, "is this the main news source "that people are hearing that day and how should "we calibrate the product as a result?" lewis, you're going to stay with us. but next on the media show, we're going to talk about the washington post because, as you may have heard, there is an awful lot of pressure on its ceo and publisher, sir will lewis, former editor of the telegraph. now, this is a story that raises a whole raft of issues, not just about the future of the washington post — which, remember, is a newspaper which broke watergate. it has a celebrated history. it's now owned byjeff bezos. and notjust is this about the future of the post but it raises questions about how news organisations are structured, about journalism ethics and about the differences between us and ukjournalism. and we're going to get some help on this story from vivian schiller, executive director of aspen digital at the aspen institute, also director of the scott trust, which owns the guardian, and a former ceo of national public radio. vivian, great to have you back on the media show. take us from the start here — when did will lewis come into the washington post? yeah, thanks, it's nice to be here. thanks for having me back, ros. will lewis was brought on as the new ceo of the washington post about six months ago and he did — according to folks on the inside, he did everything during the first six months pretty much exactly right. he spent time getting to know the place, he met folks, he did what journalists love, which is actually read their stories and send them notes about what he liked, so he had built a lot of trust in the institution — an institution that, as it turns out, was really sort of haemorrhaging — haemorrhaging money, and he had a mandate to turn it around. and then, about — a few weeks ago, everything flipped and he took a number of actions that he said were necessary in order to put the washington post on the right footing but that really, honestly, turned the newsroom against him. first, he — he created a new structure, as it turns out, for the washington post where — which right now is divided into a main newsroom and, of course, the opinion section, which is separate, as often is the case in us newspapers. and he decided he was going to create a third newsroom which was going to be really about features and social media. he fired sally buzbee, who was the editor—in—chief, until, again, a few weeks ago after she turned down the job of being editor of the third newsroom, and he installed one temporary editor and then a permanent editor. the temporary editor was matt murray, who was actually a very well—liked former editor of the wall street journal. and — that's the temporary editor. and then, the permanent editor to come in around election day is his old mate and colleague from the uk, robert winnett, and that's when everything started to unravel. and one of the details here which has got so much attention inside the washington post and outside is that there is an allegation which will lewis denies — that he behaved inappropriately when discussing with sally buzbee a story that was going to reference him potentially. yes, that's exactly right. there are several incidents that have happened in the last month and then, a lot of other things from his past and from the — robert winnett's past as well that have emerged. but what you're referencing is because will lewis is part of the lawsuit by prince harry and others into the news corp phone—hacking incidents, he's implicated in that. and the washington post was — was going to report on developments on that story. and sally buzbee, as editor—in—chief, did what is perfectly appropriate, which is to give her boss — who doesn't control, of course, the editorial content — but give her boss a heads—up that he's about to be named in news coverage. that's perfectly appropriate. in most cases — i've been in that exact same situation — you say, "ok. "thanks for letting me know. "good luck. "i look forward to reading the story." but he actually questions her judgement in doing the story and expressed his disapproval. and on that — sorry to interrupt — a spokesperson for will lewis has denied that he pressured buzbee to quash the article — that's according to npr. and, katie, we're going to bring you in here as well to give us some context on some of the connections between what's happening in the washington post now and alleged events in the noughties. exactly. because will lewis — people here who follow journalism will have heard of him, of course — he's got a strong pedigree as a business and investigative journalist. he was later hired by rupert murdoch in 2010 as group general manager at news international, which was later renamed news uk. and when the phone—hacking scandal broke that vivian was talking about, he was working directly on the newspaper group's response. and for years since that story has emerged, there have been claims of a corporate cover—up inside news international with allegations that millions of company emails were wiped and that will lewis had a role in that — and both will lewis and news uk deny this entirely. lewis has repeatedly, as you said, denied any wrongdoing. and vivian was mentioning a court case there — that is a court case that prince harry — a civil court case — he's suing the newspaper group over what's called "unlawful information gathering". he actually isn't being allowed by the judge to look at phone hacking because he's out of time on that and news uk is robustly defending those claims but that case is going to go to trial next year and it's those allegations that have been the focus of some attention in the us media — both the new york times and the washington post both writing, as vivian was saying, about phone hacking in relation to those stories about will lewis. so, that's the context. and vivian, if people are listening and thinking, "well, 0k. " if you're a close follower of american media, i get why "what's happening at the washington post matters." "but what about the broader consequence here? "why is this important beyond the way that "the washington post operates?" well, first of all, it's — i mean, when we sayjust one newspaper, the washington post — the washington post is one of the most important newspapers in the country, so where the news — what happens to the washington post should matter a great deal for anyone who cares about independent, quality journalism, investigative journalists and holding the powerful to account. so, that matters right there. but also it would speak to some other trends that are happening in media. one is, you know, the fact that it is owned by a single billionaire owner — and we're talking about jeff bezos, of course — who has the sole power to hire and fire, and what does this say about hisjudgement? it also gets at the very — and you alluded to this in the intro, ros — is the very different standards between quality american journalism — there's plenty of low—quality american media — and the difference between that and sort of the practice of tabloids in the uk, it's really shined a light on different — those different practices. and if i could just bring lewis goodall back in from the news agents here, i wonder how you view this. and in terms of the kind of differences between american journalists, how they see themselves and british journalists, do you sense there's a difference, a distinction there? yeah, i've got some friends i of mine who work in american newspapers, brits, and this| is something they've always talked about when i've asked them about the different - cultures of the newsrooms, . both in sort of tv and papers, is that — and particularly in newspapers, and it'si cultural as well — - which is there is a deep earnestness to american news, certainly in newspapers, - particularly those two behemoths, right — l the washington post, the new york times — all that sort of thing. and you contrast that with, certainly, british tabloids l but also even, i think, - even the character of someone like will lewis, who someone compared to me, you know, i there's a bit of a style - of almost a boris johnson about him, this sort of almost a very considered kind - of cultivated character of sort of not knowing very much - and all of these sorts of things. | very, very capable . journalist, of course. but it sits sort of slightlyj uncomfortably, perhaps, with the kind of patrician nature of the american l newsroom, particularly like the washington post. - so, from what i can gather. from people there, it is that as much as anything, - which is the kind of genesis of this story or sits - at the heart of this story. i should mention that jeff bezos has sent a note to all the staff at the washington post, saying, "our standards at the post have always "been very high. "that can't change, and it won't. "you have my full commitment on maintaining the quality, "ethics and standards we all believe in." now, at the beginning of the programme, we were talking about the reuters institute and its latest report, its digital news report, which it publishes annually. there are lots and lots of interesting details in it. one of the interesting details is not a surprise — that it's highlighting news avoidance. and, lewis, i guess this is a factor that is in the mind of alljournalists these days. you're notjust competing for news consumers, you're trying to make sure people are consuming any type of news. yeah, look, i can sense this even, you know, i travelling around the country for the general election. - there is such a disconnect between the kind of — - i mean, there always is, - but it feels particularly acute at the moment — between the sort of frenetic nature j of the westminster— conversation and the sort of — the air war and a complete kind of indifference that sort - of one encounters with voters. and you can say that's always been the case and i'm sure i to some extent, it has, | but it feels sort of more profound this time and more caustic, in a way. _ and i suppose if you think. about it, i mean, sometimes when you're — i sat in a focus group in whitby at the start i of the week and, you know, this womanjust said, - you know, "itjust feels like it's been one thing| "after the other, endlessly. "i just need to... "i sometimesjust feel i can't even — i can't even watch- "the news any more." she used that exact phrase. and if you think about it, - i mean, going back from the, you know, financial crisis to austerity to brexit - to the pandemic to partygate to liz truss and _ the self—imposed financial crisis, i it has been unusually- relentless in terms of the news agenda which has, at times, been great for news consumption. - but one feels that it has - reached a point where you can completely understand news consumers simply wanting . to switch off. and nick hilton from podot, just to bring you in on that. it's been a direction of travel, as lewis says. it's been miserable in terms of news for quite some time — wars and everything — but do you see it as part of this wider trend? and how did you read the reuters report when it came to that? i think the — what we're seeing is sort of the collapse of all these linear channels, meaning that people are having to much more proactively seek out their news. it's something we see in podcasting where, basically, our audience already have passed the threshold of having downloaded a podcast app, gone out and found out, discovered the existence of this podcast, sorted it out, downloaded it, you know? at that point, they have to be really engaged with it. and before, when we had, you know, big linear audiences on tv, on radio — i mean, there are still big linear audiences but, you know, they're ever—diminishing and, you know, the death of free newspapers on the tube, you know, the collapsing — ever—collapsing sales of newspapers, itjust means that we're entering this phase where you have to be so proactive about news. i deleted twitter and i now don't get any news. you know, i now have no idea what's going on because i was so reliant on social media and that opt—in, that sort of constant news cycle, the constant, you know, getting it every... lewis is going to come in... every five minutes - rather than every day. ..but are you feeling tempted to come back? if you're missing out on these stories, are you tempted to put it back? no, i completely deleted my account. it's gone? it's gone forever. very wise. it's like everything else| and so much of the rest of the media, isn't it? it is the hollowing| out of the middle. it is — it's — there are lots of places where you can i get news fragments — - twitter is somewhere like that — and there are — and, you know, i podcasting as we've been talking about, is - a beneficiary of it. there is greater and greater kind of — i don't want to say| niche because it isn't . in terms of podcasting, but greater and greater demand for sort of, let's say, _ high—end news consumers. who want that kind of really extended political- conversation and analysis. the challenge we all know that news providers are finding - is trying to find those middle products that go to a mass . audience, and this news kind of weariness is feeding - into that decline. and vivian schiller, if i could bring you in from the states, what's the american perspective on this when it comes to news avoidance? are people, you know, is it the same there? yeah. it's been a rising trend, particularly among young people but notjust among young people. and, of course, just the fragmentation of media consumption just exacerbates that, frankly. people are looking for information from less—than—reliable sources and avoiding a lot of traditional news in general, so there's a whole bunch of trends that are converging at one place, which is not so good for an informed electorate. yes, i was going to say what do you think news avoidance means for democracy? you've got a big election coming up very soon. nothing good. i mean, it means people are listening to others in their own tribe, so to speak, and there are many tribes, and not being exposed to alternative points of view, not being exposed necessarily to evidence—based reality and that is not good for — for democracy, and especially in election year. and it's notjust sort of left, right, it's all kinds of issues. the — you know, israel—gaza situation, ithink, has made that worse. it'sjust — it's very troubling. ros, i want to ask you because i know that you're quite big on x, which was twitter. yeah. would you ever consider deleting it? i can imagine — i think you can imagine deleting any social media for a — for a while. i do use it quite a lot. i turn it off when i go on holiday. okay. sometimes delete it but then, it does come straight back on when i go to work. at the moment, no, not during an election. i'm using it quite a lot. but you never know. you never do. at the moment, i'm going to keep it. you're going to keep it? absolutely. and... that's it, right? that is it. thank you very much indeed for watching. from me and from katie, bye—bye. bye. and if you'd like to hear a longer version of today's show, search "bbc the media show" wherever you get your bbc podcasts. hello there. we saw the heat really building to start the new week in the sunshine. let me show you the picture from earlier on on monday in aberdeenshire. aboyne saw temperatures of 27 degrees on monday, making it the hottest day of the year so far in scotland. we also had our hottest day in northern ireland and in england — it was only wales that was missing out. temperatures reached 28 celsius in london — could get even hotter in the next few days. not so for scotland, northern ireland. tuesday will be cooler, and in the next few days, cooler, fresher air will push in from the northwest with a few showers. but the heat and humidity will linger for longer in england and wales. and into tuesday, we've got more sunshine for england and wales. this cloud in the west tending to break up, but the cloud in northern england could trigger one or two showers over the pennines. looking mostly dry but cloudier in northern ireland. some rain or showers in scotland, some heavy showers in the afternoon in the east in particular. temperatures will be lower in scotland, but still could reach 22 in the central belt and the southeast. it's nearing 19 in northern ireland. hotter for england and wales, especially the midlands — towards the south east, potentially 30 degrees around london. more sunshine for england and wales on wednesday, this time a bit more cloud towards the east coast and some cloud in scotland but fewer showers here. should see a bit more sunshine in northern ireland, picking the temperatures up just a little. but again, the higher temperatures, the heat is going to be across england and wales. and again, london and the southeast could hit 30 degrees. but we're all going to be changing by the end of the week. this low pressure is going to drive this weather front eastwards. there's not much rain on that at all, but it's all about the timing because following that weather front, we've got cooler, fresher air coming in from the atlantic, pushing the heat and humidity into continental europe. so this is the picture for thursday. you can see our weather front here, is just a narrow band of cloud, little or no rain on it. sunshine follows, blustery showers coming into scotland and northern ireland, and making it feel cooler here. even with some sunshine for england and wales, temperatures will be lower, but there's still some heat across east anglia and the southeast — temperatures could be higher than 26 degrees here. but even here, things will change by the end of the week. cooler, fresher weather for all of us, i think, for friday and into the weekend, but mostly dry with some sunshine. live from washington, this is bbc news. wikileaks founderjulian assange will plea guilty as part of deal with the us. the israeli defence minister, yoav gallant, meets with us diplomats in washington for talks on gaza. and a groundbreaking discovery in the fight against hiv. thank you forjoining us. julian assange has agreed to plead guilty to violating the espionage act, ending a court case that has lasted six years. he is set to plead guilty to one charge of conspiracy to obtain and disclose national defense information. a short while ago wikileaks said on x, formerly twitter, thatjulian assange left belmarsh prison and flew out of the united kingdom. they showed this footage from 5pm local time as he made his way to the airport. the guilty plea, which is to be finalized on wednesday, will resolve mr assange�*s outstanding legal matters with the us government. as part of the deal, assange will not spend any time in custody because he will receive credit for the approximately five years he has spent in a british prison fighting extradition to the us. he was charged with conspiracy to disclose national defence information. for years, the us said the release of files

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