a lot of the audience comes up to our hosts and treats them like friends, like they already know them. and we have to sort of remind our talent, our hosts, that, you know, to expect this. and it'sjust one of those quirks that, in part, i think it's the nature of the way you listen to the shows. here's a quote to start us off. it's from an annual report on digital news from the reuters institute for the study ofjournalism. it came out on monday and describes news podcasting as, "a bright spot for publishers, "which attracts younger, well—educated listeners." given that there aren't so many bright spots for many news organisations at the moment, that is something to hold on to and i wanted to open up to everyone first. lewis, you're here. you've covered many an election over your very young life. you make me sound so old. yeah, not that old. but you've managed to get in on a few elections. but could you have ever seen that podcasting would be so central to this one? well, i definitely didn'tl foresee that it would be so central to my one - in terms of this election. but, no, i think that this is, i um, uh, this is without doubt the first real podcast i election, ithink, really, in the sense that there are now so many providers - and so many shows offering really, really top—classl analysis of the election. and not just analysis - as well. i mean, i've been travelling around the country since basically _ the start of the campaign, reporting, and i think- that is also the kind of newer. thing and something especially on news agents we try and do, which is do our own stuff, - notjust commenting and talking about. whatever's happened to have happened in the campaign. or other people's journalism, | but to do our own journalism. and i think that's- a really exciting part. and probably the next frontier, really, of podcasting, - not just for the election, but in general as well. . tony, let's go back to you, because you founded goalhanger with gary lineker a few years back. you now make a number of podcasts — the rest is politics. the rest is entertainment, the rest is football, the rest is money and the empire podcast. ijust wonder, when you go back to when you founded the company with gary lineker, what was your goal? well, frankly, it was to be a tv production company specialising largely in sport. so, i mean, it's a very strange journey we've taken. but, um, about 2019 we started to experiment with podcasting and it's got an amazing attribute, podcasting. it's the first time i'd worked in the media where we, uh, didn't need a commissioner, we didn't have to persuade somebody of the merits of our idea, we didn't have to persuade them to, um, to give us budget to make something. we could just do it ourselves. and, of course, there are dangers with that, because there's no intermediary checking that our ideas aren't nonsense. but at the same time, if we have an idea that we really like, um, we can back it and take the risk ourselves, own the ip, you know, terribly modern media way of describing these things, but we retain our own ip. um, we take a risk. we put shows out there and we see if we can grow an audience. ip being intellectual property. and ijust wonder, was there a moment when you thought, "0k, goodness, "podcasts are going to become our central thing. "they are going to become the thing "that our company is known for more than anything else"? yes, there was a very distinct moment, and that was the rest is history. uh, tom holland, dominic sandbrook, uh, which we started three or four years ago. it suddenly exploded in popularity. there was a really remarkable breakthrough. um, it suddenly went from being, you know, two middle—aged white guys chatting about carthage to suddenly having a massive, massive appeal. evidently, it's very popular. and if that's the content, let me ask you about some of the organisation behind the content. for example, what's the business model here? how does goalhanger make money from the podcast and how do you remunerate the presenters? so, i mean, the business model is, um. uh. _ in some ways quite traditional. it's, uh, an advertiser—funding modeh — there's two forms of advertising on a podcast. one is what you would understand by a spot ad that's just a random 30—second ad that would, uh, appear in the show and would suggest you drink a certain brand of beer or a soft drink. um, and then there is something called the host—read ad. that is when the actual presenter of the show, the host of the show, endorses something specific. so, you know, i won't name them since we're on the bbc. but, you know, we've had travel brands, we've had, um, uh, entertainment brands. and, uh, the beauty of that is that the endorsement by the host, and we reserve the right to decline to do any of those we wish, uh, so we did them on a case by case basis, but they're four times as valuable as a regulation spot ad. it is worth bringing in nick hilton here from podot just to give us some of the kind of context for these news podcasts, nick, if you will, because i know you were previously broadcast editor at the spectator, but now you are a big podcast specialist, make a load yourself. um, but the stats are quite murky, aren't they, in terms of, you know, how many people are actually listening. what are the figures and what's a good numberfor a podcast? we generally say that any podcast with over. 20,000 listeners per episode can start to wash its face. below that, basically, . there's no obvious route to commercialisation, certainly not through the i various agency advertisers who, for instance, acast, who i believe are partners with goalhanger. - certainly they won't entertain a podcast less than that. - it just doesn't work for them. so you either do little bespoke | deals, and we do a lot of that, j or you go for quantity. and that's kind of the model. that goalhanger has gone for. and the same - with the news agents. on the numbers, i can tell you we do 38 million downloads a month. in fact, we just did that this month and that's a record. um, the rest is politics does about ten million downloads a month. the rest is history does about 12 million downloads a month. the rest is football and entertainment do about four million each. um, and, frankly, you can work the money out relatively easily because it's all done on a thing called a cpm, which is a cost per mille, which i discovered, having not studied latin at school, is a cost per thousand. so, in other words, you get paid by the number of thousands of people. you get paid a set amount for every 1,00 people who hear an ad. so, actually, you know, with a little bit of working out, you can get... you can do the maths relatively easily. the rest is politics does about 700,000, uh, listeners an episode, with another quarter of a million watching on youtube. so we're about a million people. 0k, well, iwant to bring in lewis goodall now, um, co—host of the news agents made by global, also an lbc presenter. full disclosure, also an ex—colleague of mine when we worked together at newsnight. uh, exactly. back in new broadcasting house. i remember when you launched that show, suddenly you, our other colleague emily maitlis — still your colleague — and jon sopel, three bbc people on those billboards everywhere, as far as i could tell, across london, anyway, wherever you drove, into the airport, practically, you were there. but in terms of what you're doing differently, you're three ex—bbc people who are now doing something different outside the bbc? how would you categorise it? i mean, it is different - cos it's a different medium, and we've had to sort of find i our way in terms of doing that and doing journalism - in a medium that none of us had primarily operated in, inevitably is different. - but i wouldn't characterise... i wouldn't say that what we're doing i is fundamentally different to that which we want to do at the bbc _ certainly not from my point of view, which is, you know, - fundamentally in my heart of hearts, i'm a reporter, i i want to do journalism . and i want to tell stories. i and what's fantastic, actually, i i found about, um, news agents, and again, i suppose, in a way, i'd like to think— this is perhaps where the sort of distinctive space _ that we occupy in terms of the sort of news podcasting market in britain, - which is that, as i said at the very beginning, j we are doing our own original journalism _ and our own reporting. and i have found that, actually, j of all... i mean, i've done, you know, tv, radio, - podcasting, the great, - great thing about reporting, in terms of podcasting, is you j have space and you have time and you have texture. i came back, from just before - the general election, doingj a piece in tbilisi in georgia. um, you know, telling the story about why that matters - and why uk audiences should care about it. i we gave it a full 45, 50 minutes. one of the proudest thingsl that i've done in my career. and you can do that in terms of building the texture, - building the voices in a way that actually, i think, - is unique, actually. i and you clearly have a very loyal audience, an audience that's come to this podcast and loves this podcast. you've talked about podcasting being the future of news. why do you say that? in an era where we know- what is happening to tv news, in particular, which i still continue to love, - and in so many ways, it - continues to be in my heart. we aware — of what the demographics are, and we are also aware of what the demographics are - for podcasting. - those demographics are that older people are watching... older people are watching. news and, you know, frankly, in each and every year it's getting smaller, . for a self—evident reason. but we also know, in terms of podcasting, what it is - in terms — the demographics. are, and they're much younger. and so the recognition that you get from younger people, - students and so on, who havel started to even say, you know, come up and say, "this is my main news source now," - that is really gratifying. it also sort of adds to l the sort of responsibility of what you're doing. . it's notjust something that you're sort of churning outi each and every day. it's sort. of a supplement to other news that people will have got. . you've got to think, actually, is this the main news source that people are hearing - that day, and how should we calibrate the product - as a result? lewis, - you're going to stay with us. but next on the media show we're going to talk about the washington post because, as you may have heard, there is an awful lot of pressure on its ceo and publisher, sir will lewis, former editor of the telegraph. now, this is a story that raises a whole raft of issues, not just about the future of the washington post, which, remember, is a newspaper which broke watergate. it has a celebrated history. it's now owned byjeff bezos. and notjust is this about the future of the post, but it raises questions about how news organisations are structured, about journalism ethics and about the differences between us and ukjournalism. and we're going to get some help on this story from vivian schiller, executive director of aspen digital at the aspen institute, also director of the scott trust, which owns the guardian, and a former ceo of national public radio. vivian, great to have you back on the media show. take us from the start here. when did will lewis come into the washington post?- thanks. it's nice to be here. thanks for having me back. um, uh, will lewis was brought on as the new ceo of the washington post about six months ago. and, um, he did, uh, according to folks on the inside, he did everything during the first six months pretty much exactly right. he spent time getting to know the place. he met folks. he did what journalists love, which is actually read their stories and send them notes about what he liked. um, so he had built a lot of trust in the institution, an institution that, uh, as it turns out, was really sort of haemorrhaging, um, haemorrhaging money. um, uh, and he had a mandate to turn it around. um, and then about, uh, a few weeks ago, um, everything flipped, and, um, he took a number of actions that he said were, uh, necessary in order to put the washington post on the right footing. but that really, honestly turned the newsroom against him. um, first he, um, he created a new structure, as it turns out, for the washington post, which right now is divided into a main newsroom and, of course, the opinion section, which is separate, as often the case in us newspapers. and he decided he was going to create a third newsroom, which was going to be really about features and social media. he fired, uh, sally buzbee, who was the editor in chief, until again a few weeks ago after she turned down the job of being editor of the third newsroom. and he installed one temporary editor and then a permanent editor. uh, the temporary editor was matt murray, who was actually a very well—liked former editor of the wall street journal. that's the temporary editor. and then the permanent editor to come in, um, around election day is his old mate and colleague from the uk, uh, robert winnett. and that's when everything started to unravel. and one of the details here, which has got so much attention inside the washington post and outside, is that there is an allegation which will lewis denies, that he behaved inappropriately when discussing with sally buzbee a story that was going to reference him potentially. yes, that's exactly right. there are several, um, incidents that have happened in the last month and then a lot of other things from his past and from, um, robert winnett's past as well, that have emerged. but what you're referencing is, uh, because will lewis is part of the lawsuit by prince harry and others into the, um, news corp phone hacking, um, incidents, he's implicated in that. and the washington post was, uh, was going to report on developments on that story. and sally buzbee, as editor in chief, did what is perfectly appropriate, which is to give her boss, who doesn't control, of course, the editorial content, but give her boss a heads—up that he's about to be named in news coverage. that's perfectly appropriate in most cases. i've been in that exact same situation. you say, "ok, thanks for letting me know. good luck. "i look forward to reading the story." uh, but he actually questions herjudgment in doing the story and expressed his disapproval. and on that, sorry to interrupt, a spokesperson for will lewis has denied that he pressured buzbee to quash the article. that's according to npr. katie, we're going to bring you in here as well to give us some context on some of the connections between what's happening in the washington post now and alleged events in the noughties-_ because will lewis... people here who follow journalism will have heard of him, of course, he's got a strong pedigree as a business and investigative journalist. he was later hired by rupert murdoch in 2010 as group general manager at news international, which was later renamed news uk. and when the phone hacking scandal broke, that vivian was talking about, he was working directly on the newspaper group's response, and for years since that story has emerged, there have been claims of a corporate cover up inside news international, with allegations that millions of company emails were wiped and that will lewis had a role in that. and both will lewis and news uk deny this entirely. lewis has repeatedly, as you said, denied any wrongdoing. and vivian was mentioning a court case there. that is a court case that prince harry... a civil court case. he's suing the newspaper group over what's called unlawful information gathering. he actually isn't being allowed by the judge to look at phone hacking cos he's out of time on that. and news uk is robustly defending those claims. but that case is going to go to trial next year. and it's those allegations that have been the focus of some attention in the us media, both the new york times and the washington post, both writing, as vivian was saying, about phone hacking in relation to those stories about will lewis. so that's the context. vivian, if people are listening and thinking, "well, ok, if you're a close follower of american media, "i get why what's happening at the washington post matters." but what about the broader consequence here? why is this important beyond the way that the washington post operates? well, first of all, i mean, when we say just one newspaper, the washington post, um, the washington post is one of the most important newspapers in the country. so where the news... what happens to the washington post should matter a great deal for anyone who cares about, um, independent quality journalism, investigative journalists and holding the powerful to account. so that matters right there. but also would speak to some other trends that are happening in media. one is, you know, the fact that it is owned by a single billionaire owner. and we're talking about jeff bezos, of course, who has the sole power to hire and fire — and what does this say about hisjudgment? it also gets at the very — and you alluded to this in the intro — the very different standards between quality americanjournalism, there's plenty of low—quality american...uh, media, um, and the difference between that and sort of the practice of tabloids in the uk, it's really shined a light on different... those different practices. and if i could just bring lewis goodall back in from the news agents here, i wonder how you view this. and in terms of the kind of differences between american journalists, how they see themselves, and britishjournalists, do you sense there's a difference, a distinction there? yeah, i i've got some friends of mine who work in american newspapers, brits. i and this is something - they've always talked about when i've asked them about the different cultures - of the newsrooms, both in sort of tv and papers, is that, um, | and particularly in newspapers, and it's cultural as well, - which is there is a deep - earnestness to american news certainly in newspapers, particularly those two behemoths. i the washington post, the new york times, | all that sort of thing. and you contrast that with certainly. british tabloids, - but also even, i think, even the character of someone like will lewis, _ who someone compared to me, you know, there's a bit of a style - of almost a boris johnson about him, this sort of. a very considered kind of cultivated character- of sort of not knowing very much _ and all of these sorts of things. | very, very capable journalist, of course, but it sits sort of l slightly uncomfortably, i perhaps, with the kind of patrician nature of the american newsroom, i particularly — like the washington post. so from what i can gather from people there, - it is that as much as anything, which is the kind of genesis of this story _ or sits at the heart of this sto . , ., ., ., jeff bezos has sent a note to all the staff at the washington post saying, "our standards at the post have always been very high. "that can't change, and it won't. "you have my full commitment on maintaining the quality, "ethics and standards we all believe in." now, at the beginning of the programme, we were talking about the reuters institute and its latest report, its digital news report, which it publishes annually. there are lots and lots of interesting details in it. one of the interesting details is not a surprise, that it's highlighting news avoidance. lewis, i guess this is a factor that is in the mind of alljournalists these days. you're notjust competing for news consumers, you're trying to make sure people are consuming any type of news. yeah, look, i can sense this even, you know, travelling around the country for the general election. - there is such a disconnect. between the kind of, i mean, there always is, but it feels particularly acute _ at the moment between the sort of frenetic nature - of the westminster conversation and the sort of, the air war, - and a complete kind ofi indifference that sort of one encounters with voters. and you can say that's always been the case, _ and i'm sure to some extent it has, but it feels sort of. more profound this time i and more caustic, in a way. and i suppose if you think. about it, i mean, sometimes when you're... i sat in a focus group in whitby at the start . of the week and, you know, - this womanjust said, you know, "itjust feels like it's been one thing after the otherl "endlessly. ijust need to... j i sometimesjust feel i can't "even, i can't even watch the news any more." - she used that exact phrase, and if you think about it, . i mean, going back from the, you know, financial crisis- to austerity to brexit to the pandemic to partygate - to liz truss and the - self—imposed financial crisis, it has been unusually| relentless in terms of the news agenda, which has at times been great - for news consumption. but one feels that it has reached - a point where you canl completely understand news consumers _ simply wanting to switch off. nick hilton from podot, just to bring you in on that. it's been a direction of travel, as lewis says, it's been miserable in terms of news for quite some time, wars and everything. um, but do you see it as part of this wider trend? and how did you read the reuters report when it came to that? i think what we're seeing is sort of the collapse of all these linear channels, meaning that people are having to much more proactively seek out their news. it's something we see in podcasting, where basically our audience already have passed the threshold of having downloaded a podcast app, gone out and found out, discovered the existence of this podcast, sorted out, downloaded it. you know, at that point they have to be really engaged with it. and before, when we had, you know, big linear audiences on tv, on radio, i mean, there are still big linear audiences, but, you know, they're ever—diminishing and, you know. — the death of free newspapers on the tube, you know, the collapsing, ever—collapsing sales of newspapers, itjust means that we're entering this phase where you have to be so proactive about news. i deleted twitter and i now don't get any news. you know, i now have no idea what's going on because i was so reliant on social media and that opt—in, that sort of constant news cycle, the constant, you know, getting it every... lewis is going to come in, but are you feeling tempted to come back? if you're missing out on these stories, are you tempted to put it back? no, i completely deleted my account.— it's gone forever. very wise. it's like everything else - and so much of the rest of the media, isn't it? it is l the hollowing out of the middle. it is... it's... i there are lots of places where you can get news fragments. i twitter is somewhere like that. and there are... _ and, you know, podcasting i as we've been talking about, is a beneficiary of it. there is greater and greater kind of. _ i don't want to say niche . because it isn't in terms of podcasting, but greater- and greater demand for sort of, let's say, high—end news consumers _ who want that kind of really. extended political conversation and analysis. the challenge - we all know that news providers are finding is trying to find those middle products- that go to a mass audience. and this news kind of weariness is feeding into that decline. - vivian, if i could bring you in from the states, what's the american perspective on this when it comes to news avoidance? are people, you know, is it the same there? yeah. it's been a rising trend, um, particularly among young people, but not just among young people. and, of course, just the fragmentation of media consumption, um, just exacerbates that, frankly, people are looking for information from less—than—reliable sources and avoiding a lot of traditional news in general. so there's a whole bunch of trends that are converging at one place, which is not so good for an informed electorate. yes, i was going to say, what do you think news avoidance means for democracy? you've got a big election coming up very soon. nothing good. i mean, it means people are listening to, uh, others in their own tribe, so to speak. um, and there are many tribes and, um, not being exposed to alternative points of view, not being exposed necessarily to evidence— based reality, and, um, that is not good for, um, for democracy especially in election year. and it's notjust sort of left, right. it's all kinds of issues. the, you know, israel—gaza situation, i think, has made that worse. it's just... it's very troubling. i want to ask you, because i know that you're quite big on x, which was twitter. would you ever consider deleting it? ican imagine... i think you can imagine deleting any social media for a, for a while. i do use it quite a lot. i turn it off when i go on holiday. sometimes delete it, but then it does come straight back on when i go to work. at the moment, no, not during an election. i'm using it quite a lot. but you never know. at the moment i'm going to keep absolutely. and... that's it, right? thank you very much indeed for watching. from me and from katie, bye-bye-_ and if you'd like to hear a longer version of today's show, search "bbc the media show" wherever you get your bbc podcasts. hello. well, we're past the summer solstice now, and the weather has taken a decidedly more summery turn over recent days. we've had temperatures up in the mid 20s. heading through the course of the weekend, still relatively warm, particularly by sunday. some spells of sunshine for many of us. not completely dry — a few showers in the forecast. we've got a weak weather front that's pushing its way gradually eastwards. that should clear out of the way gradually on saturday. and then we've got a bit of a westerly influence to our weather, the winds coming in from a southwesterly direction. there's that cloud initially sitting across central and eastern parts first thing saturday. breaks up through the course of the day to allow some sunshine for many areas. one or two isolated showers, particularly towards the east. later in the day, there'll be a little bit more cloud increasing across northern ireland and northwest scotland. temperatures for stornoway for instance, 15 degrees. but for the bulk of the uk, we're looking at highs between around 18 to 22, so slightly cooler than we saw on friday. second half of the weekend and just the remnants of this frontal system that are clearing towards the east. but we're likely to start with quite a bit of cloud, you can see here for parts of northern england, wales, the south west as well. some sunshine either side of that and the cloud tending to break up again as we head through the day. things are going to be warming up, the winds coming in from more of a south, south—westerly direction, bringing some slightly warmer, more humid air. so 25 degrees, could see 26 in one or two spots on sunday. and more widely, looking at those temperatures, the high teens or the low 20s. heading through into monday, again, we've got a bit more cloud and rain across the far northwest of the uk. but for the bulk of the country, it's another dry day and it's going to feel quite warm and more humid by this stage. so temperatures for central and southeastern areas, 27 degrees or so. i think we'll all be sitting in the 20s for a time. so this is how the jet stream is looking. it plunges towards the south, out to the west of the uk, and that's going to develop an area of low pressure, pushing it our way as we head on into tuesday. but before it gets there with that position of the jet stream, that's going to draw up some warm, humid airahead of any midweek rain. so for tuesday, we're likely to start off on a dry note. there'll still be some warm sunshine around, but you'll notice the blue colours developing as low pressure tries to creep its way in from the south and the west, i think. so that will keep things perhaps a little bit cooler across the north west of the uk. but we're still looking at temperatures in the mid, possibly the high 20s. but it does look like, as that kink in the jet stream moves its way across the uk, it will push this weather system, this frontal system, bringing some outbreaks of rain gradually from west to east. some uncertainty about the detail, the timing for this stage in the week. but i think wednesday could bring quite an unsettled sort of day with outbreaks of rain, perhaps some heavy showers in the mix, gradually just drifting their way northwards and eastwards. now, with that rain and a bit of change in wind direction, it won't be so warm across northern areas on wednesday. we could well still hold on to the heat down towards the south east. now, we're looking towards the end of next week now and low pressure looks like it starts to develop out towards the west, probably moving in across the uk. so although temperatures will still be reasonably warm for the time of year, you can see the yellow colours with us. that's the air mass. it could turn quite unsettled as that jet stream kinks towards the south and delivers us an area of low pressure. so, first half of the coming week, mostly dry, some warm sunshine, some rain moving into the north and the west through the middle part of the week. second half of next week from about thursday onwards, and this is the picture for our capital cities. turns a little bit cooler, a little bit more showery, but there'll still be some spells of warm sunshine in between any of those showers as well. and temperatures are going to be really fairly typical for the time of year. for most of us, we're looking at the high teens or low 20s. bye— bye. live from london. this is bbc news the international red cross says 22 people were killed in shelling near its offices in gaza. nigel farage faces criticism after he tells the bbc that europe and nato provoked russia's invasion of ukraine. an out of this world case, as a family from florida seeks compensation from nasa. and glitz and glamour, as a school launches a prom shop to ensure students shall go to the ball without breaking the bank. hello, i'm catherine byaruhanga. welcome to the programme. an israeli military strike in southern gaza has killed at least 25 civilians and injured 50 others — that's according to the palestinian red crescent. israeli forces fired at tents for displaced people in the designated humanitarian zone of al—mawasi, near the city of rafah. and the international committee of the red cross says its office in gaza — which is surrounded by hundreds of displaced people in tents — was damaged when heavy—calibre missiles landed nearby. israel says their troops were conducting �*precise, intelligence—based actions�* in the area, where an estimated half a million displaced palestinians are sheltering. the raid comes as a simmering conflict between israel and the lebanese armed group hezbollah risks turning into a wider regional war. the two sides have exchanged fire

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