confidence vote in technical terms so it does give some permission if you like for backbench mps to vote against the government without the consequence of losing the party whip but you're completely right to say that in reality this is of course about how much confidence the mps have in the prime minister. any rebellion on those benches would be damaging to rishi sunak, already robertjenrick wasn't resignation is damaging and this matters because the government has chosen to make this policy so symbolic, so totemic. they have set a lot of stall by this. rishi sunak was asked that if he does get not get the flights of wood people be right to put their faith elsewhere because he has not delivered. that is the key question. rishi sunak has set such a lot of stall by the policy but in terms of the wider public he has made a promise to stop the boats. he said the rwanda policy is key to delivering on that promise and the huge question is whether politically and practically he can. fin huge question is whether politically and practically he can.— and practically he can. on the fact that we had _ and practically he can. on the fact that we had a _ and practically he can. on the fact that we had a resignation - and practically he can. on the fact i that we had a resignation yesterday, downing street have announced that there is not going to be one single replacement for robertjenrick, it is going to be split into two? that's right, two conservative mps taking two different aspects of what was a singular ministerial brief. robertjenrick was the immigration minister. that is being split into two different parts. part one to do with what the government calls illegal, people coming here by irregular means including small boat crossings and the other done by tom pursglove is going to be dealing with legal migration. we know that people come into this country through these schemes, through legitimate means as the government would see it. a lot of concern conservative backbenchers about those immigration figures so that brief has been split into two different roles in two different mps taking them on. what rishi sunak will hope is that he has chosen loyal mps who will help them deliver the policy because there is a lot at stake when it comes to this now. for now, thanks very much. you may have heard during rishi sunak�*s press conference there was a question about russia cyberspace because britain's foreign office has summoned the russian ambassador and sanctioned to individuals or what it said was a sustained and unsuccessful attempt to interfere in british politics by russian cyber spies. let's get more on this with our security corresponded. what do we know about this? this our security corresponded. what do we know about this?— we know about this? this is a serious accusation _ we know about this? this is a serious accusation by - we know about this? this is a serious accusation by the - we know about this? this is a serious accusation by the uk| we know about this? this is a - serious accusation by the uk that russia has been engaged in this campaign, particularly the fsb, that it has been hacking people's e—mails and data over a period of years. this is politicians in particular but others in public life, think tanks and former officials. to take one example, liam fox's e—mails were hacked and a us uk trade document was then leaked online which ended up was then leaked online which ended up being used in the 2019 general election campaign. that was previously attributed to russia but today, a specific group from the fsb is being accused of doing that, the russian security service. also, there have been other incidents. a member of parliament from the snp had his e—mail stolen. he told me earlier this year again that is now being linked. it is understood to this same group within the fsb. officials are saying that they do not believe these attempts were successful in interviewing significantly in public life. but in a number of cases, it appears parliamentarians did have e—mails stolen, in some cases material was made public, in other cases not. as a result of an investigation, the uk is making public this accusation today. summoned the russian ambassador here in the uk, two individuals are being sanctioned, one of those is a russian security service officer from the fsb. part of this group which is accused of being involved in the activity. russia has always denied being involved in such hacking and political interference. it is not “ust the political interference. it is not just the united _ political interference. it is not just the united kingdom - political interference. it is not just the united kingdom thatl political interference. it is not. just the united kingdom that has political interference. it is not - just the united kingdom that has a problem with this. the us is looking to impose sanctions?— to impose sanctions? there is a history of _ to impose sanctions? there is a history of this. _ to impose sanctions? there is a history of this. the _ to impose sanctions? there is a history of this. the us - to impose sanctions? there is a history of this. the us or- to impose sanctions? there is a history of this. the us or its - to impose sanctions? there is a i history of this. the us or its 2016 election interfered with by a different part of russian intelligence where e—mails were hacked and stolen and leaked and we're expecting the us to join the uk later today with some of action against this group. clearly part of against this group. clearly part of a coordinated campaign by allies to try and expose this activity. the idea is to disrupt it and make life more difficult for this part of the russian security service. impose sanctions on them and provide warning to people in public life that their e—mails could be hacked and their data could be stolen and then released online. for and their data could be stolen and then released online.— then released online. for the moment. _ then released online. for the moment, thank— then released online. for the moment, thank you - then released online. for the moment, thank you very - then released online. for the i moment, thank you very much. then released online. for the - moment, thank you very much. a bit of sad breaking news to bring you on bbc news. it has just been announced that the poet and author benjamin zephaniah has died, it was after a brain to my diagnosis, that according to his family. his wife we are told was by his side and when he passed, one was known for his work about refugees and also healthy eating. and you may also know that he appeared in the bbc hit show peaky blinders asjeremiahjesus. he was diagnosed with a brain tumour shortly before his death. we post on his instagram said it is with great sadness and regret that we announce the death of our beloved husband, son and brother in the early hours of this morning, the 7th of december. benjamin was diagnosed with a brain tumour eight weeks ago. his wife was by his side throughout and with him when he passed. we shared him with the world and we know many will be shocked and saddened by this news. they go on to see engine say benjamin gave the world a huge body of literature and radio. he leaves us with a joyful and fantastic legacy. thank you for the love you have shown professor benjamin zephaniah. he was born in birmingham, nominated for autobiography of the year for his work, also back in 2018 he was shortlisted for the costa book awards. the sad news that benjamin zephaniah has died at the age of 65. a little earlier you will have seen borisjohnson give a second day of evidence at the covid inquiry. listening to that was our correspondent ellie price. what stood out for you so far in mr johnson�*s evidence this morning? there was an exchange, a moment shortly before the break about half—an—hour ago in which boris johnson was asked about diary entries made by his former chief scientific officer, chief medical officer patrick vallance. in which he repeatedly said borisjohnson had caught" letting the virus rip." it's a phrase we have heard several things here but there are multiple entries where borisjohnson had said that. and families of the bereaved who have come here, the language is very uncomfortable and awkward and borisjohnson himself looked really uncomfortable when it was put to him. he got quite angry, he said it was not that i felt like the virus should be let rip, it was more that during the discussions about what to do, particularly in the autumn of 2020, he needed to get the counterarguments are stricter restrictions because the earlier lockdown had shown there had been such huge implications on that first lockdown. he did not want to repeat the mistakes said rather than it being the fact that he wanted to let the virus rip, he said wanted to hear all the arguments for and against tighter restrictions. it's the first thing we have really seen borisjohnson get quite angry in this exchange. certainly looked really uncomfortable when those were put to him in the room but the inquiry has got back under way and i think we can go back to it now. what we wanted out _ think we can go back to it now. what we wanted out of _ think we can go back to it now. what we wanted out of the _ think we can go back to it now. what we wanted out of the tiered system and new— we wanted out of the tiered system and new we have got to be clearly did not— and new we have got to be clearly did not achieve it, was really to crush_ did not achieve it, was really to crush the — did not achieve it, was really to crush the virus when it was most prevalent — crush the virus when it was most prevalent. and i have explained that one of— prevalent. and i have explained that one of the _ prevalent. and i have explained that one of the difficulties was getting local leaders to put in measures fast enough. i think it is possible and there — fast enough. i think it is possible and there is even some evidence from patrick— and there is even some evidence from patrick that _ and there is even some evidence from patrick that we had a fighting chance — patrick that we had a fighting chance of getting the load below one _ chance of getting the load below one if_ chance of getting the load below one if we — chance of getting the load below one. if we had been able to get some of those _ one. if we had been able to get some of those measures in, put in harder and faster— of those measures in, put in harder and faster in— of those measures in, put in harder and faster in those areas, i think it might — and faster in those areas, i think it might have worked. there are other— it might have worked. there are other people who think that too. the oint, mr other people who think that too. tue: point, mrjohnson, other people who think that too. tta: point, mrjohnson, you other people who think that too. t"t2 point, mrjohnson, you cannot other people who think that too. tt2 point, mrjohnson, you cannot rely upon what was said on the 20th of october about the general nature of regional restrictions because you made the decision to go a0 years on the 11th of october —— a0 years and the 11th of october —— a0 years and the announcement on what was said subsequently and on the 20th of october in relation to the 20th of october in relation to the merits of regional restrictions cannot be relied upon as a justification for your decision—making ten days before. with great respect, what i think it shows— with great respect, what i think it shows is— with great respect, what i think it shows is that there was around that time, _ shows is that there was around that tinre there — shows is that there was around that time, there was continuing scientific— time, there was continuing scientific support, as i took it, for, _ scientific support, as i took it, for. i— scientific support, as i took it, for. i am — scientific support, as i took it, for, i am just giving you what i felt, _ for, i am just giving you what i felt, support for a continued regional— felt, support for a continued regional approach. felt, support for a continued regionalapproach. by the felt, support for a continued regional approach. by the way, it was also — regional approach. by the way, it was also my feeling that although the suggestion from sage had been for a circuit breaker, i did not fora circuit breaker, i did not feel— for a circuit breaker, i did not feel listening to the arguments and the may— feel listening to the arguments and the may be my mistake, i did not feel that — the may be my mistake, i did not feel that the pressure for a circuit tweaker— feel that the pressure for a circuit breaker was particularly strong and that may— breaker was particularly strong and that may be my mistake but it was not coming — that may be my mistake but it was not coming from the health secretary and it— not coming from the health secretary and it seemed to me that there were countervailing arguments as well. in countervailing arguments as well. [ti the countervailing arguments as well. the event countervailing arguments as well. t�*t the event the tears as we know did not work. that the event the tears as we know did not work- tha— the event the tears as we know did not work. that they didn't and i am ve sad not work. that they didn't and i am very sad about _ not work. that they didn't and i am very sad about that _ not work. that they didn't and i am very sad about that but _ not work. that they didn't and i am very sad about that but i _ not work. that they didn't and i am very sad about that but i think - not work. that they didn't and i am very sad about that but i think theyi very sad about that but i think they were logically, rationally as we came _ were logically, rationally as we came out— were logically, rationally as we came out of the restrictions in the sunrnrer. — came out of the restrictions in the summer, they were worth a try. the trouble _ summer, they were worth a try. the trouble was — summer, they were worth a try. the trouble was that they became very invidious— trouble was that they became very invidious between areas because once finding _ invidious between areas because once finding in— invidious between areas because once finding in very heavy restrictions where _ finding in very heavy restrictions where one — finding in very heavy restrictions where one village was not and the incident _ where one village was not and the incident of— where one village was not and the incident of the virus was exactly the sanre. — incident of the virus was exactly the same, politicians of all kinds became — the same, politicians of all kinds became very worked up, sometimes quite _ became very worked up, sometimes quite paranoid about the tiering approach. it was clearly proving divisive — approach. it was clearly proving divisive and difficult to implement. i divisive and difficult to implement. i want _ divisive and difficult to implement. i want to— divisive and difficult to implement. i want to say that eddie lester, who was in _ i want to say that eddie lester, who was in charge of the negotiations, a heroic— was in charge of the negotiations, a heroicioh_ was in charge of the negotiations, a heroicioh in— was in charge of the negotiations, a heroicjob in trying to get government, local government, regional— government, local government, regional government to agree. in addition, — regional government to agree. in addition, it— regional government to agree. in addition, it would, —— the evidence of the _ addition, it would, —— the evidence of the peer— addition, it would, —— the evidence of the peer to suggest not only were the problems you identified but as mr ridtey— the problems you identified but as mr ridley has said, the process overall— mr ridley has said, the process overall was entered into extremely quickly— overall was entered into extremely quickly which gave rise to problems of its _ quickly which gave rise to problems of its own — quickly which gave rise to problems of its own. the negotiations were difficult _ of its own. the negotiations were difficult and long and of course when _ difficult and long and of course when dealing with epidemiological exponential growth. the virus is not interested _ exponential growth. the virus is not interested in all this.— interested in all this. indeed. and also logically _ interested in all this. indeed. and also logically because _ interested in all this. indeed. and also logically because the - interested in all this. indeed. and also logically because the virus i interested in all this. indeed. and | also logically because the virus was spreading, ultimately has proved to be the case, it spread to all areas and therefore there was a level of, there was a degree of epidemiological levelling up everywhere would have to eventually go everywhere would have to eventually 9° up everywhere would have to eventually go up into tier 3 and that would defeat the whole purpose of it. that is completely _ defeat the whole purpose of it. that is completely right and i think that is completely right and i think that is a summary. mr is completely right and i think that is a summary-— is completely right and i think that is a summary. mr hancock told the inuui is a summary. mr hancock told the inquiry that — is a summary. mr hancock told the inquiry that he _ is a summary. mr hancock told the inquiry that he knew _ is a summary. mr hancock told the inquiry that he knew on _ is a summary. mr hancock told the inquiry that he knew on the - is a summary. mr hancock told the inquiry that he knew on the 14th i is a summary. mr hancock told the inquiry that he knew on the 14th ofi inquiry that he knew on the 1ath of october when you announced the 12th of october when you announced the tiered system that it would not work. did he tell you that? that tiered system that it would not work. did he tell you that? not to my knowledge. — work. did he tell you that? not to my knowledge, not _ work. did he tell you that? not to my knowledge, not that _ work. did he tell you that? not to my knowledge, not that i - work. did he tell you that? not to my knowledge, not that i can - my knowledge, not that i can remember. my knowledge, not that i can remember-— my knowledge, not that i can remember. ~ _, ., ., remember. we then come to the lead u . remember. we then come to the lead u- to the remember. we then come to the lead up to the second _ remember. we then come to the lead up to the second lockdown. _ remember. we then come to the lead up to the second lockdown. it - remember. we then come to the lead up to the second lockdown. it does i up to the second lockdown. it does appear that the covid pass course provided a forward strategy document for you on the 25th of october and there was a meeting in chequers to discuss it. you then received a further task force advice on the 28th of october and then another paper for 28th of october and then another paperfor a covid meeting and then there was ultimately a meeting at which you decided that there had to be a lockdown in my question is this. why were there a number of papers and strategy documents given to you in the same week all broadly recommending a lockdown? it rather looks as if the covid task force was trying to bring you to a particular conclusion. t trying to bring you to a particular conclusion-— trying to bring you to a particular conclusion. ., �* ~ ., ., , conclusion. i don't know the answer to that. i conclusion. i don't know the answer to that- i do — conclusion. i don't know the answer to that. i do remember— conclusion. i don't know the answer to that. i do remember the - conclusion. i don't know the answer to that. i do remember the papers. to that. i do remember the papers and i_ to that. i do remember the papers and i think— to that. i do remember the papers and i think it was the james bowler paper— and i think it was the james bowler paper that — and i think it was the james bowler paper that i got on the 28 for instance _ paper that i got on the 28 for instance there was a lot of good... you know. — instance there was a lot of good... you know, the covid task force by the way— you know, the covid task force by the way was determined to make the tiering _ the way was determined to make the tiering system work. we began full of hope _ tiering system work. we began full of hope that it could work. but it was clear— of hope that it could work. but it was clear by, towards the end of the month— was clear by, towards the end of the month it _ was clear by, towards the end of the month it wasjust running out of road _ month it wasjust running out of road 8 — month it was “ust running out of road. �* , ., . ., , road. b be more direct. the notes for the meeting _ road. b be more direct. the notes for the meeting on _ road. b be more direct. the notes for the meeting on the _ road. b be more direct. the notes for the meeting on the 25th - road. b be more direct. the notes for the meeting on the 25th of- for the meeting on the 25th of october, the forward strategy meeting, recorded as recognising that the country was in a very tough spot, you say according to him that he were deeply sceptical about a national lockdown. and you see we are not, or "i am not going to be stampeded into a national lockdown yet." that is over the weekend. three days later the task force comes to you and says the situation is continuing to deteriorate. we do not think the tears are working, there has got to be lockdown. the point i need to you is to what degree, if any, point i need to you is to what degree, ifany, do point i need to you is to what degree, if any, do you assess that the covid task force was trying to impose on you are trying to recommend a lockdown because it was aware that he had already said on the 25th, i am really not going to be stampeded this time? tt the 25th, i am really not going to be stampeded this time?- the 25th, i am really not going to be stampeded this time? it was quite ri . ht be stampeded this time? it was quite riaht not be stampeded this time? it was quite ri . ht not to be stampeded this time? it was quite right not to be _ be stampeded this time? it was quite right not to be stampeded _ be stampeded this time? it was quite right not to be stampeded into - be stampeded this time? it was quite right not to be stampeded into any i right not to be stampeded into any course _ right not to be stampeded into any course of— right not to be stampeded into any course of action, but the virus, irrespective _ course of action, but the virus, irrespective of the covid task force — irrespective of the covid task force, the virus was spreading. and it was— force, the virus was spreading. and it was spreading exponentially. and that was— it was spreading exponentially. and that was clear from what james bowler — that was clear from what james bowler had to say. that was clear for a _ bowler had to say. that was clear for a long — bowler had to say. that was clear for a long time that it was... of course. for a long time that it was... of course- we _ for a long time that it was... of course. we wanted _ for a long time that it was... of course. we wanted to - for a long time that it was... of course. we wanted to try - for a long time that it was... of course. we wanted to try the i for a long time that it was... of i course. we wanted to try the tiered a- roach, course. we wanted to try the tiered approach. we _ course. we wanted to try the tiered approach, we wanted _ course. we wanted to try the tiered approach, we wanted to _ course. we wanted to try the tiered approach, we wanted to try - course. we wanted to try the tiered approach, we wanted to try the i course. we wanted to try the tiered | approach, we wanted to try the local approach. _ approach, we wanted to try the local approach, that was gradually running out of— approach, that was gradually running out of road. — approach, that was gradually running out of road, and we had to go for national— out of road, and we had to go for national measures. i always knew that we _ national measures. i always knew that we were, that was on the cards. having _ that we were, that was on the cards. having tried — that we were, that was on the cards. having tried measures which did not prove to work. having been told from july that a second wave was inevitable, to you accept that there is at least a good argument that the tiered system should have been conceptualised and put into place earlier, at a time when the prevalence was lower and therefore the tiered system may have been more likely to work? alternatively, that a circuit breaker should have been applied in september so as to avoid possibly, and we will never know, possibly, and we will never know, possibly, the second devastating national lockdown which you were forced to apply? 50. national lockdown which you were forced to apply?— forced to apply? so, on the point about the circuit _ forced to apply? so, on the point about the circuit breaker, - forced to apply? so, on the point about the circuit breaker, i - forced to apply? so, on the point about the circuit breaker, i thinkl about the circuit breaker, i think we quite — about the circuit breaker, i think we quite a — about the circuit breaker, i think we quite a bit. their argument is for and _ we quite a bit. their argument is for and against. it was not presented to me as a something that we urgently needed to do, it was an option. _ we urgently needed to do, it was an option. the — we urgently needed to do, it was an option, the health secretary was against _ option, the health secretary was against it— option, the health secretary was against it and the problem with bounce — against it and the problem with bounce back and as i say, a circuit hreaker— bounce back and as i say, a circuit breaker is— bounce back and as i say, a circuit breaker is not flipping things on and off, — breaker is not flipping things on and off, it — breaker is not flipping things on and off, it is a very massive intervention, you have got to get it i’ilht intervention, you have got to get it right andm — intervention, you have got to get it right and- - -— intervention, you have got to get it right and..._ it. intervention, you have got to get it right and..._ it is. right and... likely lockdown? it is a complete _ right and... likely lockdown? it is a complete lockdown. _ right and... likely lockdown? it is a complete lockdown. on - right and... likely lockdown? it is a complete lockdown. on your. right and... likely lockdown? it is i a complete lockdown. on your point about _ a complete lockdown. on your point about should the tiering system have been introduced earlier, and formalised earlier, which is what you ask, — formalised earlier, which is what you ask, that is an excellent question _ you ask, that is an excellent question. i think that the truth is that we _ question. i think that the truth is that we already, for a long time had kind of— that we already, for a long time had kind of tiering in the sense that some _ kind of tiering in the sense that some places, leicester, the north west: _ some places, leicester, the north west, remained under measures for a lon- west, remained under measures for a longtime _ west, remained under measures for a longtime it — west, remained under measures for a long time. it took awhile, i will be honest. _ long time. it took awhile, i will be honest. it — long time. it took awhile, i will be honest, it awhile to work out the system _ honest, it awhile to work out the system and work out how to move places _ system and work out how to move places up — system and work out how to move places up and down. and i think one of the _ places up and down. and i think one of the lessons of the whole experience is that when you set up these _ experience is that when you set up these artificial boundaries between fud and _ these artificial boundaries between fud and illogical areas and using —— epidemiological areas, fud and illogical areas and using —— epidemiologicalareas, or fud and illogical areas and using —— epidemiological areas, or council hounds _ epidemiological areas, or council hounds or— epidemiological areas, or council bounds or whatever, you're going to create _ bounds or whatever, you're going to create huge — bounds or whatever, you're going to create huge problems and parliamentary constituents, you will create _ parliamentary constituents, you will create huge problems and we had run into those _ create huge problems and we had run into those. and i see in my statement, i don't think that in the end worked, but logically, it appeared to be the right way to go as we _ appeared to be the right way to go as we came out of the first lockdown. as we came out of the first lockdown-— as we came out of the first lockdown. �* , ~ . ., ,., ., lockdown. and du mrjohnson, that the position — lockdown. and du mrjohnson, that the position that _ lockdown. and du mrjohnson, that the position that was _ lockdown. and du mrjohnson, that the position that was ultimately i the position that was ultimately reached was that he did hadn't you imposed a roller—coaster lockdown process overall epidemiological evidence has been given to this inquiry that if you impose lockdown, circuit breakers, whatever they may be called earlier, there was a greater chance to get on top of the virus earlier, you then don't you to have such a long circuit breaker or lockdown and when you come out, prevalence is likely to be lower, therefore obviating the need for yet another lockdown. the therefore obviating the need for yet another lockdown.— therefore obviating the need for yet| another lockdown._ if another lockdown. the answers... if ou could another lockdown. the answers... if you could let — another lockdown. the answers... if you could let me _ another lockdown. the answers... if you could let me put _ another lockdown. the answers... if you could let me put the _ another lockdown. the answers... if you could let me put the question. i you could let me put the question. the evidence suggests a few weight to the last moment you have more of a pronounced roller—coaster approach and prevalence is unlikely to be as low as it would otherwise be andy lockdown in order to work has to be longer, harderand more lockdown in order to work has to be longer, harder and more brutal. that is what you ended up with. triage. is what you ended up with. now, so... a is what you ended up with. now, so- -- a lot _ is what you ended up with. now, so... a lot of— is what you ended up with. now, so... a lot of points _ is what you ended up with. now, so... a lot of points there - is what you ended up with. now, so. .. a lot of points there if- is what you ended up with. now, so... a lot of points there if i i so... a lot of points there if i may — so... a lot of points there if i may first _ so... a lot of points there if i may. first of all, we did not delay and do _ may. first of all, we did not delay and do something at the last minute as though — and do something at the last minute as though... in march, neither or septemher— as though... in march, neither or september or october did we do one single _ september or october did we do one single lockdown. it's one of the most _ single lockdown. it's one of the most important points that people need to— most important points that people need to remember. it has been slightly— need to remember. it has been slightly forgotten. in march, there were a _ slightly forgotten. in march, there were a cushioned of measures beginning in i think on the ninth when _ beginning in i think on the ninth when i — beginning in i think on the ninth when i first told people to avoid contact — when i first told people to avoid contact and so on. school closures, hospitality— contact and so on. school closures, hospitality closures, nonessential retail _ hospitality closures, nonessential retail and — hospitality closures, nonessential retail and so on. then the lock in on the _ retail and so on. then the lock in on the 23rd _ retail and so on. then the lock in on the 23rd. when it comes to the september, october, again there is a series— september, october, again there is a series of— september, october, again there is a series of steps that we take nationally in addition to the regional— nationally in addition to the regional measures. and i have described _ regional measures. and i have described them, the 9th of september, the rule of six, the 22nd of september, working from home, curfew— of september, working from home, curfew and — of september, working from home, curfew and so on. then the tiering system _ curfew and so on. then the tiering system then lockdown. the question about— system then lockdown. the question about whether the actions helped depress. — about whether the actions helped depress, change the shape of the curve _ depress, change the shape of the curve i_ depress, change the shape of the curve, i think that they did, i hope that they— curve, i think that they did, i hope that they did. i believe that they did. that they did. i believe that they did but — that they did. i believe that they did. but epidemiologists will have and its— did. but epidemiologists will have and it's one of the most important things— and it's one of the most important things the — and it's one of the most important things the inquiry has to evaluate in my— things the inquiry has to evaluate in my view — things the inquiry has to evaluate in my view. the exact extent to which _ in my view. the exact extent to which those mpis changed, affected the progress of the virus. what i also think— the progress of the virus. what i also think is that if you look at what _ also think is that if you look at what happened, particularly the second — what happened, particularly the second curve, the second wave, it is very interesting that the first, it goes _ very interesting that the first, it goes into— very interesting that the first, it goes into portstewart. the first wave, — goes into portstewart. the first wave. you _ goes into portstewart. the first wave, you can see that the collective impact of what we are doing _ collective impact of what we are doing from september onwards, because — doing from september onwards, because we are following it very closely — because we are following it very closely by this time, does bend the curve _ closely by this time, does bend the curve and — closely by this time, does bend the curve. and again, i will leave closely by this time, does bend the curve. and again, iwill leave it closely by this time, does bend the curve. and again, i will leave it to you to _ curve. and again, i will leave it to you to the — curve. and again, i will leave it to you to the exact extent that worked and that's _ you to the exact extent that worked and that's a — you to the exact extent that worked and that's a crucial thing and we need _ and that's a crucial thing and we need to— and that's a crucial thing and we need to clean it properly. but what happened — need to clean it properly. but what happened as i said earlier on is that— happened as i said earlier on is that you — happened as i said earlier on is that you get alpha. and that we had not budgeted for. that's why the second _ not budgeted for. that's why the second curve describes the shape that it _ second curve describes the shape that it does. second curve describes the shape that it does-— that it does. would you “ust describe the i that it does. would you just describe the significance i that it does. would you just describe the significance of| that it does. would you just i describe the significance of alpha in terms of additional transmissibility. in terms of additional transmissibili . �* , ., , transmissibility. alpha is the kent variant which _ transmissibility. alpha is the kent variant which was _ transmissibility. alpha is the kent variant which was identified i transmissibility. alpha is the kent variant which was identified in i variant which was identified in early— variant which was identified in early december, i don't know why we call early december, idon't know why we call that— early december, i don't know why we call that the — early december, i don't know why we call that the kent variant, it did not originate in kent but, and it was much — not originate in kent but, and it was much more transmissible than the original— was much more transmissible than the original coronavirus. to a was much more transmissible than the original coronavirus.— original coronavirus. to a very larae original coronavirus. to a very large extent. _ original coronavirus. to a very large extent, is _ original coronavirus. to a very large extent, is this _ original coronavirus. to a very large extent, is this right, i original coronavirus. to a very large extent, is this right, the emergence of the alpha variant swept all the pre—existing considerations before it away? because christmas ability meant that the government's room for manoeuvre was very much more constrained now after?- more constrained now after? that's riaht, more constrained now after? that's right. when — more constrained now after? that's right. when you _ more constrained now after? that's right, when you talk _ more constrained now after? that's right, when you talk about - more constrained now after? that's right, when you talk about a - right, when you talk about a roller—coaster, i would say that that roller—coaster was very largely driven _ that roller—coaster was very largely driven by— that roller—coaster was very largely driven by nature. the extent to which _ driven by nature. the extent to which we — driven by nature. the extent to which we were able to control the roller—coaster is something that i think— roller—coaster is something that i think we — roller—coaster is something that i think we all need to focus on. indeed — think we all need to focus on. indeed. the roller—coaster was plainly evident from november, hence the lockdown. the kent alpha variant did not make itself plain until the first three or four days in december.— first three or four days in december. . �*, . . ., december. that's correct. what has ha--ened december. that's correct. what has happened with _ december. that's correct. what has happened with the _ december. that's correct. what has happened with the measures - december. that's correct. what has happened with the measures that i december. that's correct. what has l happened with the measures that we put in _ happened with the measures that we put in place as i said to milady before — put in place as i said to milady before in— put in place as i said to milady before, in that second wave, it actually — before, in that second wave, it actually looks and i remember matt telling _ actually looks and i remember matt telling me this, as though we have started _ telling me this, as though we have started to — telling me this, as though we have started to get the numbers under control— started to get the numbers under control again. and that was encouraging, so it was unbelievably depressing when we got alpha. there was a small margin _ depressing when we got alpha. there was a small margin for _ depressing when we got alpha. ttee was a small margin for discretion as far as you could see it in december because there was some way of trying to delay the more stringent measures that would be required as a result of the alpha variant. there was christmas to consider. obviously the prevalence level of the virus, the rate of transmission was still relatively high in december, although the november lockdown had of course brought it down significantly. but not to the same level as it had been brought down in may. and therefore there was no possibility, was there, of opening entirely in december was back there had to be fairly stringent restrictions applied, continue to be applied, whatever view you have reach of the public health crisis, is that a fair summary?- reach of the public health crisis, is that a fair summary? yes, our initial plan _ is that a fair summary? yes, our initial plan was _ is that a fair summary? yes, our initial plan was to _ is that a fair summary? yes, our initial plan was to open - is that a fair summary? yes, our initial plan was to open up i is that a fair summary? yes, our i initial plan was to open up december two which _ initial plan was to open up december two which indeed we did. we saw in contra _ two which indeed we did. we saw in contra evidence of alpha and we know we were _ contra evidence of alpha and we know we were basically heading for a full lockdown _ we were basically heading for a full lockdown in january.— lockdown in january. there was an debate about _ lockdown in january. there was an debate about the _ lockdown in january. there was an debate about the extent _ lockdown in january. there was an debate about the extent to - lockdown in january. there was an debate about the extent to which l lockdown in january. there was an i debate about the extent to which you could ease, bearing in mind you're clearly stated wish that is much could be done as possible to allow families to spend christmas together. families to spend christmas touether. ~ families to spend christmas together-— families to spend christmas touether. ~ . ., together. we did have that debate, thou:h if together. we did have that debate, though if you _ together. we did have that debate, though if you remember, _ together. we did have that debate, though if you remember, what i though if you remember, what happened, itjust became untenable because _ happened, itjust became untenable because of the spread of alpha and london _ because of the spread of alpha and london and a lot of the rest of the country— london and a lot of the rest of the country went straight into the tier 4 country went straight into the tier a as country went straight into the tier 4 as we _ country went straight into the tier a as we called it. | country went straight into the tier a as we called it.— country went straight into the tier a as we called it. i need to ask you to what extent _ a as we called it. i need to ask you to what extent your _ a as we called it. i need to ask you l to what extent your decision-making to what extent your decision—making in the middle of december was influenced by the press or your backbenchers, because they were referencing the patrick vallance diaries to you saying that the view of your backbenchers was to take a particular path. you were minded to agree with them. you appear instantly to resist lockdown measures. is it any truth to that? it is certainly true, as i have said in the _ it is certainly true, as i have said in the course _ it is certainly true, as i have said in the course of meetings, as i believed — in the course of meetings, as i believed was myjob and directly thought— believed was myjob and directly thought was myjob, i would express the general— thought was myjob, i would express the general view notjust of backbenchers but other cabinet ministers — backbenchers but other cabinet ministers who might not be in that meeting _ ministers who might not be in that meeting about what we were on track to set— meeting about what we were on track to set up— meeting about what we were on track to set up some challenge in the conversation. gn to set up some challenge in the conversation.— to set up some challenge in the conversation. ., i ., ., , conversation. on the 2nd ofjanuary, michael gove — conversation. on the 2nd ofjanuary, michael gove sent _ conversation. on the 2nd ofjanuary, michael gove sent private _ conversation. on the 2nd ofjanuary, michael gove sent private note i michael gove sent private note expressing his views, essentially to the effect that there was no alternative but to adopt a strategy of maximum suppression as he put it. did that note which traversed well trodden ground change your views on what was to be on the ath of january? what was to be on the ath of janua ? ., ., ., , what was to be on the ath of janua ? ., ., ., i i january? no, we already basically knew, i january? no, we already basically knew. i was _ january? no, we already basically knew, i was grateful— january? no, we already basically knew, i was grateful to _ january? no, we already basically knew, i was grateful to michael i january? no, we already basicallyl knew, i was grateful to michael for his note _ knew, i was grateful to michael for his note, but we already knew that we were _ his note, but we already knew that we were, again, wejust his note, but we already knew that we were, again, we just had to take the toughest measures that we could. how did _ the toughest measures that we could. how did the last minute change in relation to whether or not schools as opposed to... relation to whether or not schools as opposed to- - -_ relation to whether or not schools as opposed to. . .- school| relation to whether or not schools | as opposed to. . .- school is as opposed to... terrible. school is not auoin as opposed to... terrible. school is not going back _ as opposed to... terrible. school is not going back at _ as opposed to... terrible. school is not going back at all _ as opposed to... terrible. school is not going back at all as _ as opposed to... terrible. school is not going back at all as opposed i as opposed to... terrible. school is not going back at all as opposed to | not going back at all as opposed to just primary schools going back. tt just primary schools going back. it was terrible. how _ just primary schools going back. it was terrible. how did _ just primary schools going back. it was terrible. how did it _ just primary schools going back. it was terrible. how did it happen? l just primary schools going back. it| was terrible. how did it happen? it was terrible. how did it happen? it was inevitable _ was terrible. how did it happen? it was inevitable because _ was terrible. how did it happen? it was inevitable because we... i it is waiter most vulnerable families— it is waiter most vulnerable families who come off worse from school _ families who come off worse from school closures. and that is definitely the case, we saw that in the first— definitely the case, we saw that in the first lockdown, without a shadow of a doubt _ the first lockdown, without a shadow of a doubt. so we were desperate to keep schools open. yes, did i fight the fight _ keep schools open. yes, did i fight the fight in — keep schools open. yes, did i fight the fight in my heart and head to keep— the fight in my heart and head to keep schools open? yes, i did, i wanted — keep schools open? yes, i did, i wanted to— keep schools open? yes, i did, i wanted to do it but it wasn't a runner— wanted to do it but it wasn't a runner and _ wanted to do it but it wasn't a runner and we had to look everything down _ runner and we had to look everything down how— runner and we had to look everything down. how how did you frighten your heart _ down. how how did you frighten your heart and _ down. how how did you frighten your heart and head, mrjohnson? iask because _ heart and head, mrjohnson? iask because mr— heart and head, mrjohnson? iask because mr williamson said in his witness _ because mr williamson said in his witness statement that when he and you attend _ witness statement that when he and you attend to the cabinet meeting on the 4th— you attend to the cabinet meeting on the 4th of— you attend to the cabinet meeting on the ath ofjanuary he made clear that he _ the ath ofjanuary he made clear that he didn't think, of course he is a secretary of state for education, he didn't think schools should _ education, he didn't think schools should close again if they had to close _ should close again if they had to close and — should close again if they had to close, and they must be opened again by february— close, and they must be opened again by february half term and he says, i didn't— by february half term and he says, i didn't have — by february half term and he says, i didn't have complete autonomy to make _ didn't have complete autonomy to make core — didn't have complete autonomy to make core decisions, especially those _ make core decisions, especially those regarding school closure and school _ those regarding school closure and school reopening. so those regarding school closure and school reopening.— school reopening. so to a significant _ school reopening. so to a significant extent, - school reopening. so to a significant extent, the i school reopening. so to a i significant extent, the views of school reopening. so to a - significant extent, the views of the secretary of state for education were overridden.— were overridden. they were, i listened carefully _ were overridden. they were, i listened carefully to _ were overridden. they were, i listened carefully to what i were overridden. they were, i listened carefully to what he l were overridden. they were, i i listened carefully to what he had to say and _ listened carefully to what he had to say and many colleagues thought we had to— say and many colleagues thought we had to keep schools open and the fact is— had to keep schools open and the fact is that — had to keep schools open and the fact is that sadly schools are terrific — fact is that sadly schools are terrific reservoirs of the virus and in the _ terrific reservoirs of the virus and in the cold — terrific reservoirs of the virus and in the cold winter months there was going _ in the cold winter months there was going to _ in the cold winter months there was going to be — in the cold winter months there was going to be a big vector of transmission for elderly people and it wasn't— transmission for elderly people and it wasn't a — transmission for elderly people and it wasn't a runner. may transmission for elderly people and it wasn't a runner.— it wasn't a runner. may we move forward almost _ it wasn't a runner. may we move forward almost a _ it wasn't a runner. may we move forward almost a year _ it wasn't a runner. may we move forward almost a year to - it wasn't a runner. may we move i forward almost a year to omicron? in 2021. without going into the details of the somewhat arcane and complex issue of plan a and plan b and plan b plus, but this the position from the beginning of december other end of november and the of december, the omicron variant became apparent, steps you declared to cabinet had to be taken to protect the public from that variant for good precautionary reasons plan was devised and put into place which essentially meant moving from the pre—existing plan a to a plan b? and you said there was little option but to implement plan b but the reality was we were faced with rising hospitalisations. it is at a fair summary?— with rising hospitalisations. it is at a fair summary? what was it that took lace at a fair summary? what was it that took place in _ at a fair summary? what was it that took place in the _ at a fair summary? what was it that took place in the middle _ at a fair summary? what was it that took place in the middle of - at a fair summary? what was it that took place in the middle of and i took place in the middle of and later— took place in the middle of and later part — took place in the middle of and later part of december that meant that you _ later part of december that meant that you didn't have to go to plan b plus which— that you didn't have to go to plan b plus which was right back up to the more _ plus which was right back up to the more severe interventions, in fact probably— more severe interventions, in fact probably level four lockdown? | probably level four lockdown? i think probably level four lockdown? think this probably level four lockdown? i think this was one of those occasions, possibly rare, when i felt that i got... maybe i was flattering myself, but i felt i had a good handle on the data by then and i was watching it very closely and i was watching it very closely and particularly the ifr in the province of south africa where omicron was very prevalent, and what we were studying but the extent to which omicron translated into deaths and everyone is a tragedy but if the ratio were starting to diminish, as it seemed to be, then that was very significant and so we were all watching this very closely and i thought that it seemed to the data that we were seeing from south africa seem to me to suggest that omicron was less deadly. and considerably less deadly. triage omicron was less deadly. and considerably less deadly. now we are auoin considerably less deadly. now we are aoian to considerably less deadly. now we are going to leave — considerably less deadly. now we are going to leave that _ considerably less deadly. now we are going to leave that evidence - considerably less deadly. now we are going to leave that evidence from i going to leave that evidence from borisjohnson at going to leave that evidence from boris johnson at the covered going to leave that evidence from borisjohnson at the covered inquiry but you can continue to watch the former prime minister's evidence on the bbc iplayer and find a live page on the bbc news website and if you arejoining us, and want to catch up with what borisjohnson been telling the inquiry, you can do that both on iplayer and the bbc news website or app. i want to bring you an update from the inquest into the death of ruth perry. she was a primary school head teacher who took around life in january was waiting for the publication of an ofsted inspection report that took place in november last year. been told her primary was being downgraded from outstanding to inadequate due to safeguarding concerns. batch to's senior coroner said inspection was done in a manner which lacked fairness, respect and sensitivity and what at times rude and intimidating. the 53—year—old's death led to a debate about how ofsted inspections work. our education editor has more. ruth perry was the head teacher of caversham primary school for 13 years and she took a life injanuary this year. ofsted was going to take the school from outstanding to inadequate, leaving ruth perry distressed from the first morning of the inspection. distressed from the first morning of the inspection-— the inspection. ruth said that first meetina , the inspection. ruth said that first meeting. she _ the inspection. ruth said that first meeting, she said _ the inspection. ruth said that first meeting, she said she _ the inspection. ruth said that first meeting, she said she felt - the inspection. ruth said that first meeting, she said she felt it i the inspection. ruth said that first meeting, she said she felt it was i meeting, she said she felt it was just absolutely relentless. she said it felt like her head wasn't working properly, they would fire a question at a knock—about time to think and then the question when she wouldn't have time to answer and then she will try to answer and they would contradict what she said our comeback. she wasjust contradict what she said our comeback. she was just in a complete state. she kept repeating, i'm devastated, i am state. she kept repeating, i'm devastated, iam i'm state. she kept repeating, i'm devastated, i am i'm traumatised. state. she kept repeating, i'm devastated, iam i'm traumatised. th devastated, lam i'm traumatised. in evidence, other staff at the school described the lead inspector's behaviour as mocking and unpleasant. he told the court he passed their first conversation after mrs perry became tearful. ofsted as previously described the inspection as professional and sensitive. inquest heard that ruth perry both distressed, barely able to speak making the lead inspector in the first morning. inspectors were raising concerns about the record—keeping for keeping children safe at the school. as an experienced head teacher, ruth perry knew that if they were judged ineffective on safeguarding, it would bejudged inadequate overall. inquest also heard that no child came to harm. caversham was wet with perry a grown—up. she went to the primary school if a child. her family said she dwelt on what would happen when ofsted published the report, feeling shame, humiliation and the loss of a job. this report, feeling shame, humiliation and the loss of a job.— and the loss of a “0b. this was aoain to and the loss of a “0b. this was going to be _ and the loss of a “0b. this was going to be the _ and the loss of a job. this was going to be the end _ and the loss of a job. this was going to be the end of- and the loss of a job. this was going to be the end of her- and the loss of a job. this was i going to be the end of her career and she didn't know what else she could do. i don't think she could hold a head up high. i think she was so distraught by it she felt like she let everybody down so she flipped out the government, the pupils, the parents, herfamily. ruth perry... pupils, the parents, her family. ruth perry---— pupils, the parents, her family. ruth perry... pupils, the parents, her family. ruth per i ., ruth perry... ruth perry died on the 8th ofjanuary. _ ruth perry... ruth perry died on the 8th ofjanuary. just _ ruth perry. .. ruth perry died on the 8th ofjanuary, just under— ruth perry... ruth perry died on the 8th ofjanuary, just under two - 8th ofjanuary, just under two months after the inspection. a gp said it had contributed to her deteriorating mental health and death. ofsted published the report rating the school inadequate to match and it had ruth perry's name on it, and out in the end but said she had died. i on it, and out in the end but said she had died.— she had died. i find it callous, heartless. _ she had died. i find it callous, heartless, insensitive, - she had died. i find it callous, heartless, insensitive, tone i she had died. i find it callous, i heartless, insensitive, tone deaf and these — heartless, insensitive, tone deaf and these are just the terms i've been _ and these are just the terms i've been using. tojust pretend that things— been using. tojust pretend that things are — been using. tojust pretend that things are ok. in been using. to “ust pretend that things are ok._ things are ok. in april, a month after the family _ things are ok. in april, a month after the family first _ things are ok. in april, a month after the family first said - things are ok. in april, a month after the family first said the i after the family first said the inspection contributed to ruth's death, ofsted responded. the findin . s death, ofsted responded. the findings of _ death, ofsted responded. the findings of a _ death, ofsted responded. ire findings of a secure and death, ofsted responded. fie findings of a secure and i think the inspection team worked with the professionalism and sensitivity that i would expect from our inspectors. more changes were promised injune, school is graded inadequate would be swiftly inspected, giving them a chance to change. ofsted went back to caversham primary school in the summer. this time it was graded good as a result of the changes made. we will have more reaction to that inquest verdict on ruth perry later here on bbc news but i want to take you back now to the covid inquiry, whether former you back now to the covid inquiry, whetherformer prime you back now to the covid inquiry, whether former prime minister boris johnson continues to answer questions for a second day. let's a listen. i questions for a second day. let's a listen- i will— questions for a second day. let's a listen. i will pretend _ questions for a second day. let's a listen. i will pretend otherwise. i listen. i will pretend otherwise. but actually what happened thereafter was fascinating in that whatever — thereafter was fascinating in that whatever the rights and wrongs of the position i took on that episode, people _ the position i took on that episode, people continued to want us to get on with_ people continued to want us to get on with the job of axing the pandemic and they continued... despite — pandemic and they continued... despite of— pandemic and they continued... despite of what you say about the confidence factor, they continued to be more _ confidence factor, they continued to be more than willing to work together— be more than willing to work together to defeat the virus and that is_ together to defeat the virus and that is what they did. is together to defeat the virus and that is what they did.— that is what they did. is that ri . ht, that is what they did. is that right. mr — that is what they did. is that right, mrjohnson? - that is what they did. is that right, mrjohnson? the - that is what they did. is that | right, mrjohnson? the same that is what they did. is that - right, mrjohnson? the same data right, mrjohnson? the same data which established the significant drop in confidence in your government, data from ucl called the covid social study, also appeared to suggest a drop in self—reported adherence to guidance, so there was not just the adherence to guidance, so there was notjust the communication of political presentation issue, there was a substantive impact.- was a substantive impact. well, i can't quantify _ was a substantive impact. well, i can't quantify that. _ was a substantive impact. well, i can't quantify that. what - was a substantive impact. well, i can't quantify that. what is - can't quantify that. what is certainly— can't quantify that. what is certainly true is that we discussed a lot over— certainly true is that we discussed a lot over the last couple of days, they all_ a lot over the last couple of days, they all start to degrade over time, public— they all start to degrade over time, public adherence starts to fray. whether — public adherence starts to fray. whether that episode helped to exacerbate the problem, ijust can't judge _ exacerbate the problem, i 'ust can't 'udue. , ., exacerbate the problem, i 'ust can't 'udue. , . , , exacerbate the problem, i 'ust can't 'udie, , ., , , judge. the inquiry that everybody is aware the first _ judge. the inquiry that everybody is aware the first report _ judge. the inquiry that everybody is aware the first report of _ judge. the inquiry that everybody is aware the first report of social- aware the first report of social gatherings in number ten emerge in november of 2021. you were issued with a fixed penalty notice on the 12th of april 2022 relating to an eventin 12th of april 2022 relating to an event in downing street on the occasion of your birthday, the 19th ofjune 2020, just a few weeks after the barnard castle affair. putting aside the issue of your own fixed penalty notice, did you, and it's important i see this, did you apologise for the impression that had been given better stuff in downing street take the rules and regulations listen seriously and you in fact described yourself as furious. i in fact described yourself as furious. ., , ., ., furious. i did and i repeated that on many. _ furious. i did and i repeated that on many. many _ furious. i did and i repeated that on many, many occasions. - furious. i did and i repeated that on many, many occasions. but. furious. i did and i repeated that i on many, many occasions. but you acknowledged — on many, many occasions. but you acknowledged of _ on many, many occasions. but you acknowledged of course _ on many, many occasions. but you acknowledged of course that - on many, many occasions. but you acknowledged of course that all. on many, many occasions. but you| acknowledged of course that all the peaches proved to have taken place but the general behaviour took place in downing street on your watch? —— mike all the breaches. i do in downing street on your watch? -- mike all the breaches.— mike all the breaches. i do but i wish to stress _ mike all the breaches. i do but i wish to stress that, _ mike all the breaches. i do but i wish to stress that, and - mike all the breaches. i do but i wish to stress that, and i - mike all the breaches. i do but i wish to stress that, and i take l wish to stress that, and i take full response — wish to stress that, and i take full response to take up what the government said or did during the pandemic, — government said or did during the pandemic, i continue to regret very much _ pandemic, i continue to regret very much what — pandemic, i continue to regret very much what happened but i really want to emphasise, and you talk about the impression,... to emphasise, and you talk about the impression-"— impression,... boris johnson talking about those — impression,... boris johnson talking about those parties _ impression,... boris johnson talking about those parties that _ impression,... boris johnson talking about those parties that were - impression,... boris johnson talking about those parties that were held l about those parties that were held inside downing street. it is at this point that we're going to say goodbye to viewers who are watching on bbc two. a reminder, you can continue to follow the covid inquiry scanning the qr code you can see on screen now. i scanning the qr code you can see on screen nova— screen now. i know of hundreds and hundreds of — screen now. i know of hundreds and hundreds of hard-working _ screen now. i know of hundreds and hundreds of hard-working civil - hundreds of hard—working civil servants — hundreds of hard—working civil servants who thought that they were following _ servants who thought that they were following the rules and i know, i don't _ following the rules and i know, i don't think— following the rules and i know, i don't think have been properly characterised by some of, not the media _ characterised by some of, not the media coverage, but the dramatic representations are absolutely absurd — representations are absolutely absurd and they are 1 million miles from _ absurd and they are 1 million miles from the _ absurd and they are 1 million miles from the reality of what happened. one of— from the reality of what happened. one of the — from the reality of what happened. one of the problem says i have received — one of the problem says i have received a _ one of the problem says i have received a number— one of the problem says i have received a number of— one of the problem says i havel received a number of messages one of the problem says i have - received a number of messages from people _ received a number of messages from people in— received a number of messages from peeple in my— received a number of messages from peeple in my travels— received a number of messages from people in my travels around - received a number of messages from people in my travels around the - people in my travels around the united — people in my travels around the united kingdom, _ people in my travels around the united kingdom, and— people in my travels around the united kingdom, and so- people in my travels around the united kingdom, and so many. people in my travels around thel united kingdom, and so many of people in my travels around the - united kingdom, and so many of them who suffered _ united kingdom, and so many of them who suffered horrific— united kingdom, and so many of them who suffered horrific grief— united kingdom, and so many of them who suffered horrific grief during - who suffered horrific grief during lockdown — who suffered horrific grief during lockdown we _ who suffered horrific grief during lockdown. we all _ who suffered horrific grief during lockdown. we all know— who suffered horrific grief during lockdown. we all know it - who suffered horrific grief during lockdown. we all know it is - who suffered horrific grief during lockdown. we all know it is far. who suffered horrific grief during - lockdown. we all know it is far more tragic— lockdown. we all know it is far more tragic than _ lockdown. we all know it is far more tragic than many— lockdown. we all know it is far more tragic than many other— lockdown. we all know it is far more tragic than many other kinds of- tragic than many other kinds of grief _ tragic than many other kinds of grief and _ tragic than many other kinds of grief and i_ tragic than many other kinds of grief and i am _ tragic than many other kinds of grief. and i am afraid - tragic than many other kinds of grief. and i am afraid party- tragic than many other kinds of| grief. and i am afraid party gate has been — grief. and i am afraid party gate has been called _ grief. and i am afraid party gate has been called exacerbating. . grief. and i am afraid party gate| has been called exacerbating. of has been called exacerbating. course, i totally understand has been called exacerbating.“ course, i totally understand their feelings— course, i totally understand their feelings and what can i do but again apologise _ feelings and what can i do but again apologise for the mistakes that we've _ apologise for the mistakes that we've made to number ten? what i'm trying _ we've made to number ten? what i'm trying to— we've made to number ten? what i'm trying to tell — we've made to number ten? what i'm trying to tell you to tell the inquiry— trying to tell you to tell the inquiry is i think the characterisation, the representation has been _ characterisation, the representation has been of what civil servants and advisers _ has been of what civil servants and advisers were doing in number ten has been _ advisers were doing in number ten has been a — advisers were doing in number ten has been a travesty of the truth. they— has been a travesty of the truth. they thought they were working very hard, _ they thought they were working very hard. which — they thought they were working very hard, which they were and i certainly— hard, which they were and i certainly thought that what we were doing. _ certainly thought that what we were doing. i'd _ certainly thought that what we were doing, i'd have said before, within the rules — doing, i'd have said before, within the rules. so that is in no way to attempt — the rules. so that is in no way to attempt to— the rules. so that is in no way to attempt to mitigate the offence it is being _ attempt to mitigate the offence it is being caused and i understand the offence _ is being caused and i understand the offence that has been caused and i apologise — offence that has been caused and i apologise for the offence that has been _ apologise for the offence that has been caused and if i had my time again. _ been caused and if i had my time again. of— been caused and if i had my time again, of course i would have done things— again, of course i would have done things differently in number ten and iwould _ things differently in number ten and i would have sent repeated messages around _ i would have sent repeated messages around saying, please make sure that everybody _ around saying, please make sure that everybody can see that you are property— everybody can see that you are properly following the guidance. so frankly— properly following the guidance. so frankly i_ properly following the guidance. so frankly i think, as some of your witnesses — frankly i think, as some of your witnesses have said, it was logistically impossible to do that. but anyway, i think people know my views— but anyway, i think people know my views on— but anyway, i think people know my views on this. you but anyway, i think people know my views on this-— views on this. you say it was 1 million miles _ views on this. you say it was 1 million miles away _ views on this. you say it was 1 million miles away from - views on this. you say it was 1 million miles away from the i views on this. you say it was 1 - million miles away from the reality of downing street. one of your most competent and sterling civil servants had implied the evidence i find it hard to pick one day when the regulations were for the property inside that building. but that is a point i'm making. because...— that is a point i'm making. because... . ., because... are you saying it was all a matter breaches _ because... are you saying it was all a matter breaches of _ because... are you saying it was all a matter breaches of regulations i because... are you saying it was all a matter breaches of regulations on account of formulaic obligations of walking down corridors and having to work in the building structure of downing street? if work in the building structure of downing street?— work in the building structure of downing street? if you read what helen said in _ downing street? if you read what helen said in her— downing street? if you read what helen said in her evidence - downing street? if you read what helen said in her evidence to - downing street? if you read what| helen said in her evidence to you, downing street? if you read what l helen said in her evidence to you, i think— helen said in her evidence to you, i think actually that is what she was driving _ think actually that is what she was driving at — think actually that is what she was driving at. she says there was one meeting _ driving at. she says there was one meeting where we were able to do things— meeting where we were able to do things strictly by the absolute letter — things strictly by the absolute letter of the guidance and it was unsustainable. and that was why the guidance _ unsustainable. and that was why the guidance was written in a way so as to allow— guidance was written in a way so as to allow businesses to have flexibility and the particulars... i have _ flexibility and the particulars... i have been— flexibility and the particulars... i have been around this issue many times— have been around this issue many times and — have been around this issue many times and forgive me. but the situation — times and forgive me. but the situation in downing street, the conditions of work there, we were having _ conditions of work there, we were having to — conditions of work there, we were having to call meeting after meeting after meeting at all hours of the day and — after meeting at all hours of the day and night in rapid succession and summon people rapidly to different meetings. as helen mcnamara rightly says, in those conditions it was very hard to follow — conditions it was very hard to follow the letter of the guidance. and i've — follow the letter of the guidance. and i've tried to explain that many times— and i've tried to explain that many times but — and i've tried to explain that many times but... i understand the offence — times but... i understand the offence has been caused. maybe have 226, 229. this _ offence has been caused. maybe have 226, 229. this was _ offence has been caused. maybe have 226, 229. this was around _ offence has been caused. maybe have 226, 229. this was around the - offence has been caused. maybe have 226, 229. this was around the time, i 226, 229. this was around the time, the revelation of the party in downing street, whatsapp communication between yourself and your cabinet secretary. a cabinet secretary simon case was originally obligated to carry out an investigation but for a variety of reasons which we needn't explore he did not do so. but in the context of that debate 2304 on the 17th of december borisjohnson, in retrospect we all should have told people above all to think about their behaviour and how it would look but now we must smash on. so that wasn't about technical breaches of the regulations because of the planning in downing street, it was a reference to behaviour, the behaviour of your officials and advisers and you knew how it would look, but you didn't care that much. i did care and to say i didn't care about— i did care and to say i didn't care about what— i did care and to say i didn't care about what was happening generally is the _ about what was happening generally is the complete opposite of the truth _ is the complete opposite of the truth. and yes, i think we could have _ truth. and yes, i think we could have done — truth. and yes, i think we could have done more in number ten to insist— have done more in number ten to insist people thought about the way their behaviour forward be perceived by others _ their behaviour forward be perceived by others and i made this point repeatedly to the various inquiries that had _ repeatedly to the various inquiries that had been held already into this matter _ that had been held already into this matter. we should have thought about what it _ matter. we should have thought about what it would look like to have have people _ what it would look like to have have people out — what it would look like to have have people out in the garden when other people _ people out in the garden when other people were not allowed in the garden — people were not allowed in the garden. even though the garden with bein- garden. even though the garden with being used _ garden. even though the garden with being used as a place of work. but the idea _ being used as a place of work. but the idea that i didn't... in your line _ the idea that i didn't... in your line of— the idea that i didn't... in your line of questioning, which has been excellent _ line of questioning, which has been excellent throughout, you have dwelt particularly on whatsapp exchanges and various things i'm supposed to have said _ and various things i'm supposed to have said which indicate that i didn't— have said which indicate that i didn't care. i did care and i continue— didn't care. i did care and i continue to care passionately about it. continue to care passionately about it and _ continue to care passionately about it and if— continue to care passionately about it. and if you... i haven't talked about— it. and if you... i haven't talked about this — it. and if you... i haven't talked about this before in public, but... and it _ about this before in public, but... and it goes — about this before in public, but... and it goes to what you were saying earlier— and it goes to what you were saying earlier about... about elderly people — earlier about... about elderly people. and what you claim i is —— what _ people. and what you claim i is —— what you _ people. and what you claim i is —— what you claim is my indifference to the pandemic. iwant what you claim is my indifference to the pandemic. i want to remind you that when— the pandemic. i want to remind you that when i— the pandemic. i want to remind you that when i went into intensive care i saw _ that when i went into intensive care i saw around — that when i went into intensive care i saw around me a lot of people who were not— i saw around me a lot of people who were not actually elderly. in fact, they were — were not actually elderly. in fact, they were middle—aged men and they were quite _ they were middle—aged men and they were quite like me. and some of us were _ were quite like me. and some of us were going — were quite like me. and some of us were going to make it in some of us went _ were going to make it in some of us went all— were going to make it in some of us went all i_ were going to make it in some of us went. all i am trying to tell you, in a nutshell, and the nhs, thank god, _ in a nutshell, and the nhs, thank god, did — in a nutshell, and the nhs, thank god, did an— in a nutshell, and the nhs, thank god, did an amazing job and helped me survive. — god, did an amazing job and helped me survive, but i'd knew from that experience — me survive, but i'd knew from that experience what an appalling disease this is _ experience what an appalling disease this is i_ experience what an appalling disease this is. i had absolutely no personal— this is. i had absolutely no personal doubt about that from march onwards~ _ personal doubt about that from march onwards~ to— personal doubt about that from march onwards. to say that i didn't care about— onwards. to say that i didn't care about the — onwards. to say that i didn't care about the suffering that was being inflicted _ about the suffering that was being inflicted on the country is simply not right — inflicted on the country is simply not right. mr inflicted on the country is simply not riuht. ~ g. inflicted on the country is simply not riuht. ~ ., not right. mrjohnson, i have never su: rested not right. mrjohnson, i have never suggested you _ not right. mrjohnson, i have never suggested you didn't _ not right. mrjohnson, i have never suggested you didn't care - not right. mrjohnson, i have never suggested you didn't care about. not right. mrjohnson, i have never| suggested you didn't care about the suffering. i suggested you didn't care about the behaviour demonstrated with clear preference in the face of that whatsapp. ltrefoil. in the face of that whatsapp. well, thank ou in the face of that whatsapp. well, thank you for— in the face of that whatsapp. well, thank you for that _ in the face of that whatsapp. well, thank you for that clarification. - in the face of that whatsapp. well, thank you for that clarification. i . thank you for that clarification. i think thank you for that clarification. think you thank you for that clarification. i think you are going to ask some questions — think you are going to ask some questions and _ think you are going to ask some questions and then _ think you are going to ask some questions and then miss - think you are going to ask some i questions and then miss campbell. think you are going to ask some - questions and then miss campbell. i want to— questions and then miss campbell. i want to make — questions and then miss campbell. i want to make sure _ questions and then miss campbell. i want to make sure that _ questions and then miss campbell. i want to make sure that we - questions and then miss campbell. i want to make sure that we don't - questions and then miss campbell. i. want to make sure that we don't have too long _ want to make sure that we don't have too long a _ want to make sure that we don't have too long a morning _ want to make sure that we don't have too long a morning. i’m“ _ want to make sure that we don't have too long a morning.— too long a morning. i'm happy to crack on a _ too long a morning. i'm happy to crack on a song _ too long a morning. i'm happy to crack on a song if _ too long a morning. i'm happy to crack on a song if you _ too long a morning. i'm happy to crack on a song if you are - too long a morning. i'm happy to crack on a song if you are in - too long a morning. i'm happy to crack on a song if you are in the l crack on a song if you are in the sonographer and mrjohnson is. so sonographer and mrjohnson is. s: the sonographer and mrjohnson is. the crack for sonographer and mrjohnson is. so the crack for 20 minutes? —— mark the crack for 20 minutes? —— mark the stenographer. _ mr johnson, mrjohnson, i'm going to ask you some _ mrjohnson, i'm going to ask you some questions in behalf of about 7000 _ some questions in behalf of about 7000 bereaved family members from across— 7000 bereaved family members from across england, scotland, wales and northern— across england, scotland, wales and northern ireland who are supporters of the _ northern ireland who are supporters of the covid bereaved families for justice _ of the covid bereaved families for justice uk — of the covid bereaved families for justice uk group which eventually you did _ justice uk group which eventually you did meet with at one point. and i'm you did meet with at one point. and i'm going _ you did meet with at one point. and i'm going to— you did meet with at one point. and i'm going to ask you questions for about— i'm going to ask you questions for about 20 — i'm going to ask you questions for about 20 minutes and some of the point _ about 20 minutes and some of the point that— about 20 minutes and some of the point that i'm going to ask you about— point that i'm going to ask you about been touched upon already so i hope you _ about been touched upon already so i hope you can collaborate in dealing with them — hope you can collaborate in dealing with them effectively. and i want to start, _ with them effectively. and i want to start, i_ with them effectively. and i want to start, i want to go back to appoint mr keith _ start, i want to go back to appoint mr keith raced with you about part of your— mr keith raced with you about part of your statement where you say, paragraph — of your statement where you say, paragraph 15, where you said that united _ paragraph 15, where you said that united kingdom had most of the gloomy— united kingdom had most of the gloomy predictions and it ended well down the _ gloomy predictions and it ended well down the global league table for excess _ down the global league table for excess mortality. at the end of your exchange _ excess mortality. at the end of your exchange with mr keith, i understand it without _ exchange with mr keith, i understand it without you basically stood by that statement. it is it without you basically stood by that statement.— that statement. it is that right? well, that statement. it is that right? well. first _ that statement. it is that right? well, first thing _ that statement. it is that right? well, first thing to _ that statement. it is that right? well, first thing to say - that statement. it is that right? well, first thing to say is - that statement. it is that right? well, first thing to say is how. that statement. it is that right? i well, first thing to say is how glad i am that you and the representatives of the bereaved families are here and taking such a big part in this proceeding. i think thatis big part in this proceeding. i think that is a good thing and i think it is very valuable for the inquiry. on the data, whatever the data may say, one death is a tragedy, there were too many. i was merely making the point that i thought that the statistics... i have seen several table setting to confirm what i was saying and i point you to another one by the lancer are giving roughly the same impression. {lilia one by the lancer are giving roughly the same impression.— one by the lancer are giving roughly the same impression. 0k, my question what ou the same impression. 0k, my question what you stand — the same impression. 0k, my question what you stand by _ the same impression. 0k, my question what you stand by that _ the same impression. 0k, my question what you stand by that statement - the same impression. 0k, my question what you stand by that statement you i what you stand by that statement you made _ what you stand by that statement you made i— what you stand by that statement you made i do _ what you stand by that statement you made. i do. as far as i can see, what you stand by that statement you made. i do. as faras i can see, in a very— made. i do. as faras i can see, in a very lengthy _ made. i do. as faras i can see, in a very lengthy statement, no problem with that, _ a very lengthy statement, no problem with that, but you don't actually provide — with that, but you don't actually provide much of a basis for that statement. so i want to probate a little — statement. so i want to probate a little bit _ statement. so i want to probate a little bit further, if that is all right — little bit further, if that is all right i— little bit further, if that is all right. i want to put up a document. i'm right. i want to put up a document. i'm going _ right. i want to put up a document. i'm going to— right. i want to put up a document. i'm going to put up a very small number— i'm going to put up a very small numberof— i'm going to put up a very small number of documents to do in my time _ number of documents to do in my time but— number of documents to do in my time but i— number of documents to do in my time. but i wanted to look at this one _ time. but i wanted to look at this one it _ time. but i wanted to look at this one it is — time. but i wanted to look at this one. it is 290 to 765, page ten. just _ one. it is 290 to 765, page ten. just while — one. it is 290 to 765, page ten. just while it _ one. it is 290 to 765, page ten. just while it is coming up, it is a graph— just while it is coming up, it is a graph that — just while it is coming up, it is a graph that has been provided at the inquiry— graph that has been provided at the inquiry and — graph that has been provided at the inquiry and it deals with this very issue _ inquiry and it deals with this very issue and — inquiry and it deals with this very issue and it — inquiry and it deals with this very issue and it is the comparative position— issue and it is the comparative position of the uk internationally. an earlier— position of the uk internationally. an earlier witness told us that you have _ an earlier witness told us that you have some — an earlier witness told us that you have some difficulty with graphs, so whether— have some difficulty with graphs, so whether that is right or not, don't worry. _ whether that is right or not, don't worry, i'm — whether that is right or not, don't worry, i'm going to actually point out the _ worry, i'm going to actually point out the points i want to meet with you _ out the points i want to meet with you i_ out the points i want to meet with you. i wanted you to be able to see it. you. i wanted you to be able to see it this— you. i wanted you to be able to see it this is— you. i wanted you to be able to see it this is a — you. i wanted you to be able to see it. this is a comparative position of the _ it. this is a comparative position of the united kingdom, age standardised for excess deaths with other— standardised for excess deaths with other european countries over the period _ other european countries over the period of— other european countries over the period ofjanuary 2022 july other european countries over the period of january 2022 july 2022. and what — period of january 2022 july 2022. and what it does is it shows that 18 months _ and what it does is it shows that 18 months into the pandemic, it gives two points, — months into the pandemic, it gives two points, it shows that 18 months into the _ two points, it shows that 18 months into the pandemic united kingdom was ninth highest out of the 33 countries in terms of its success death— countries in terms of its success death adjusted. and then it drops to 15th after— death adjusted. and then it drops to 15th after 30 months. so we did get better _ 15th after 30 months. so we did get better but — 15th after 30 months. so we did get better. but the important point that i better. but the important point that i want _ better. but the important point that i want to _ better. but the important point that i want to highlight and want to fairly— i want to highlight and want to fairly put— i want to highlight and want to fairly put to you with the document in front— fairly put to you with the document in front of— fairly put to you with the document in front of you is that only italy amongst — in front of you is that only italy amongst comparable countries had a higher— amongst comparable countries had a higher excess mortality rate, so it is right— higher excess mortality rate, so it is right that — higher excess mortality rate, so it is right that the uk it in the middle _ is right that the uk it in the middle of that graph, but in terms of comparable countries, only italy has a _ of comparable countries, only italy has a higher mortality rate and you would _ has a higher mortality rate and you would agree with that, i assume. i don't would agree with that, i assume. don't quite would agree with that, i assume. i don't quite understand what you may buy comparable in that context. let me explain. it's important that we don't _ me explain. it's important that we don't compare apples with pears i am sure you _ don't compare apples with pears i am sure you will — don't compare apples with pears i am sure you will agree. if it is right your— sure you will agree. if it is right your statement that the uk defied most _ your statement that the uk defied most of— your statement that the uk defied most of the gloomy predictions in your words, we would be looking at comparisons with countries like france — comparisons with countries like france or— comparisons with countries like france or belgium. rather than bulgaria — france or belgium. rather than bulgaria or poland, which are very different _ bulgaria or poland, which are very different countries. i'm not beingm _ different countries. i'm not being---— different countries. i'm not beini... ., , ., m ., different countries. i'm not beini... ., , ., ., ., being... not being what? what are ou doini being... not being what? what are you doing with _ being... not being what? what are you doing with bulgaria? _ being... not being what? what are you doing with bulgaria? i'm - being... not being what? what are | you doing with bulgaria? i'm asking you, if you are going to say that uk defied the gloomy predictions, then the real comparison is with countries such as france or belgium or spain or germany. it is that right? or spain or germany. it is that riiht? ~ , ., or spain or germany. it is that riiht? ~ i. ., right? well, if you look at... the oint i right? well, if you look at... the point i was _ right? well, if you look at... the point i was making _ right? well, if you look at... the point i was making and - right? well, if you look at... the point i was making and which - right? well, if you look at... the point i was making and which i i right? well, if you look at... the - point i was making and which i stand by it at— point i was making and which i stand by it at the _ point i was making and which i stand by it at the uk, the tables i've seen — by it at the uk, the tables i've seen actually comes about halfway down _ seen actually comes about halfway down and — seen actually comes about halfway down and it is notjust table, it ism _ down and it is notjust table, it ism i— down and it is notjust table, it ism ithink— down and it is notjust table, it is... i think there was a lancet study. — is... i think there was a lancet study, former health secretary alludes — study, former health secretary alludes to it in its evidence, this is not _ alludes to it in its evidence, this is not in — alludes to it in its evidence, this is not in any— alludes to it in its evidence, this is not in any way to diminish the pain— is not in any way to diminish the painand— is not in any way to diminish the pain and the suffering of people who lost family members during covid. it is simply— lost family members during covid. it is simply to— lost family members during covid. it is simply to point out, to reflect the enormous effort made by the whole _ the enormous effort made by the whole of— the enormous effort made by the whole of the uk to protect the nhs. we stick— whole of the uk to protect the nhs. we stick to the question? you whole of the uk to protect the nhs. we stick to the question? you made a swee-iin we stick to the question? you made a sweeping assertion _ we stick to the question? you made a sweeping assertion that _ we stick to the question? you made a sweeping assertion that the _ we stick to the question? you made a sweeping assertion that the uk... - sweeping assertion that the uk... i'm putting to some cold steel of evidence and that is what i'm trying to do, so i don't believe. i evidence and that is what i'm trying to do, so i don't believe.— to do, so i don't believe. i don't believe your— to do, so i don't believe. i don't believe your evidence _ to do, so i don't believe. i don't believe your evidence stacks - to do, so i don't believe. i don't believe your evidence stacks up| to do, so i don't believe. i don't - believe your evidence stacks up and ithink— believe your evidence stacks up and i think actually... i know that emotions are running high but i have _ i know that emotions are running high but i have to _ i know that emotions are running high but i have to ask— i know that emotions are running high but i have to ask those - i know that emotions are running high but i have to ask those in. i know that emotions are runningl high but i have to ask those in the public— high but i have to ask those in the public gallery _ high but i have to ask those in the public gallery to _ high but i have to ask those in the public gallery to keep _ high but i have to ask those in the public gallery to keep quiet, - public gallery to keep quiet, whatever— public gallery to keep quiet, whatever their _ public gallery to keep quiet, whatever their emotions, i public gallery to keep quiet, - whatever their emotions, because it is going _ whatever their emotions, because it is going to _ whatever their emotions, because it is going to disrupt— whatever their emotions, because it is going to disrupt the _ whatever their emotions, because it is going to disrupt the proceedings i is going to disrupt the proceedings and it— is going to disrupt the proceedings and it affects — is going to disrupt the proceedings and it affects the _ is going to disrupt the proceedings and it affects the live _ is going to disrupt the proceedings and it affects the live feed, - is going to disrupt the proceedings and it affects the live feed, the - and it affects the live feed, the stream — and it affects the live feed, the stream for— and it affects the live feed, the stream for other— and it affects the live feed, the stream for other people - and it affects the live feed, the stream for other people trying i and it affects the live feed, the i stream for other people trying to follow _ stream for other people trying to follow i'm — stream for other people trying to follow. i'm really— stream for other people trying to follow. i'm really sorry, - stream for other people trying to follow. i'm really sorry, i- stream for other people trying to follow. i'm really sorry, i do- follow. i'm really sorry, i do understand, _ follow. i'm really sorry, i do understand, but _ follow. i'm really sorry, i do understand, but it - follow. i'm really sorry, i do understand, but it has - follow. i'm really sorry, i do understand, but it has to. follow. i'm really sorry, i do. understand, but it has to stop. follow. i'm really sorry, i do- understand, but it has to stop. all right? _ understand, but it has to stop. all riiht? . ~ understand, but it has to stop. all riiht? ., ~' ,, understand, but it has to stop. all riiht? ., ,, ., , ~ understand, but it has to stop. all riiht? ., right? thank you, lady. mrjohnson, the oint right? thank you, lady. mrjohnson, the point l'm — right? thank you, lady. mrjohnson, the point i'm getting _ right? thank you, lady. mrjohnson, the point i'm getting at _ right? thank you, lady. mrjohnson, the point i'm getting at is _ right? thank you, lady. mrjohnson, the point i'm getting at is that - right? thank you, lady. mrjohnson, the point i'm getting at is that you i the point i'm getting at is that you have raised this. i am actually now trying to present this, the inquiry has sought this evidence itself, i will give you the opportunity to answer. this is based on office of national statistics material and it is a document accompanying this, i'm not going to put it up, it's quite a detailed document but it has been provided to the inquiry. i will give it for the record, 271350. that explains the basis of these figures. the age standardised which the difference of population and difference of population and difference of population and difference of age spread. and it deals with the robustness of the international data that is used. so these are and putting to you the gold standard of the evidence in respect to this, it deals with excess deaths, notjust cobra deaths, it deals with excess deaths over the period. —— cove eight deaths. you have not put forward your assertion, why are you questioning this? am not questioning this. this shows exact— am not questioning this. this shows exact what— am not questioning this. this shows exact what i— am not questioning this. this shows exact what i said it shows which is that if— exact what i said it shows which is that if you — exact what i said it shows which is that if you look at the european tables. — that if you look at the european tables, we come about halfway down. secondly. _ tables, we come about halfway down. secondly. if— tables, we come about halfway down. secondly, if you look at the data the former— secondly, if you look at the data the former health secretary mr hancock— the former health secretary mr hancock cites in his own evidence, the lancet— hancock cites in his own evidence, the lancet study, you can see that the uk, _ the lancet study, you can see that the uk, france and germany and the tables— the uk, france and germany and the tables for— the uk, france and germany and the tables for excess mortality are grouped — tables for excess mortality are grouped very close together. and i think— grouped very close together. and i think italy— grouped very close together. and i think italy sadly has a little bit more. — think italy sadly has a little bit more, the netherlands a little bit more, _ more, the netherlands a little bit more, other nations a little bit more — more, other nations a little bit more the _ more, other nations a little bit more. the interesting thing for me is how— more. the interesting thing for me is how at— more. the interesting thing for me is how at the end of it all, a prophecy— is how at the end of it all, a prophecy by chris whitty was proved correct, _ prophecy by chris whitty was proved correct, when he said that the uk would _ correct, when he said that the uk would probably end for excess mortality around about the middle of the pack _ mortality around about the middle of the pack. and that is indeed what has happened. and that does not in anyway— has happened. and that does not in anyway diminish the individual tragedies of people who have lost lives~ _ tragedies of people who have lost lives. ., ., ., , ., lives. you have said that. dealing with these _ lives. you have said that. dealing with these statistics, _ lives. you have said that. dealing with these statistics, this - lives. you have said that. dealing with these statistics, this is - lives. you have said that. dealing with these statistics, this is what| with these statistics, this is what the kings fund said. the kings fund as i'm sure you know is a prestigious, independent health care institution, so well over a century ago, this is what it said. these figures show that although all european countries have experienced devastating death tolls from covid and the impact varied geographically in terms of timing and magnitude, excess mortality in the united kingdom during the pandemic exceeded that of most comparable western european countries. it went on, "the uk also had the highest excess mortality rate compared with the baseline among people under 65 in western european countries such as france, belgium and sweden. i'm going to move on but... i will put it to you once more that this gold standard of data available does not support what you see in your statement, does it? i support what you see in your statement, does it?- support what you see in your statement, does it? ithink with ireat statement, does it? ithink with great respect. _ statement, does it? ithink with great respect. l _ statement, does it? ithink with great respect, i think— statement, does it? ithink with great respect, i think that - great respect, i think that actually, it does and what i was responding to in my, if you look at the sit _ responding to in my, if you look at the sit document, the lancet study, the sit document, the lancet study, the uk _ the sit document, the lancet study, the uk is _ the sit document, the lancet study, the uk is i _ the sit document, the lancet study, the uk is i think about 102nd of 190 or so— the uk is i think about 102nd of 190 or so countries. studio: borisjohnson continuing to be questioned at the covid inquiry, currently the lawyer for the bereaved families is questioning mr johnson, there was a little bit of an interruption as you heard from the public galleries, baroness hallett asking people to stop that. it not go on she said. you can continue to watch mrjohnson's evidence by scanning the qr code that you can see on the right—hand side of your screen. that will you to the bbc iplayer which has continuous coverage of the covid inquiry. you are watching bbc news. i want to bring you breaking news because in the last couple of minutes it has been confirmed that the bbc�*s licence fee is to rise to £169 at a p next year. the licence fee has been frozen for the last two years but is due to rise in april in line with inflation. under the terms of resettlement made by the government, it been due to rise to £173 and 30 year but the culture secretary said he was concerned a significant rise in the fee would add to cost of living pressures. the change will mean a reduction in the broadcaster's future budget. here is what the culture secretary lucy fraser has just told the commons. the bbc is a great petition for titian— the bbc is a great petition for titian and _ the bbc is a great petition for titian and plays _ the bbc is a great petition for titian and plays a _ the bbc is a great petition for titian and plays a vital - the bbc is a great petition for titian and plays a vital role i the bbc is a great petition for titian and plays a vital role in| the bbc is a great petition for. titian and plays a vital role in our culture _ titian and plays a vital role in our culture and — titian and plays a vital role in our culture and creative _ titian and plays a vital role in our culture and creative economy. it| culture and creative economy. it broadcasts — culture and creative economy. it broadcasts our— culture and creative economy. it broadcasts our values _ culture and creative economy. it broadcasts our values and - culture and creative economy. it- broadcasts our values and identities all over— broadcasts our values and identities all over the — broadcasts our values and identities all over the world. _ broadcasts our values and identities all over the world. reaching - all over the world. reaching hundreds— all over the world. reaching hundreds of— all over the world. reaching hundreds of millions - all over the world. reaching hundreds of millions of - all over the world. reaching. hundreds of millions of people everyday _ hundreds of millions of people everyday. in _ hundreds of millions of people everyday. in january— hundreds of millions of people everyday. in january 2022, - hundreds of millions of peoplej everyday. injanuary 2022, the government— everyday. injanuary 2022, the government and _ everyday. injanuary 2022, the government and bbc- everyday. injanuary 2022, the government and bbc agreed i everyday. injanuary 2022, the government and bbc agreed a| everyday. in january 2022, the - government and bbc agreed a six—year funding _ government and bbc agreed a six—year funding settlement _ government and bbc agreed a six—year funding settlement which _ government and bbc agreed a six—year funding settlement which froze - government and bbc agreed a six—year funding settlement which froze the - funding settlement which froze the licensee _ funding settlement which froze the licensee at — funding settlement which froze the licensee at £159 _ funding settlement which froze the licensee at £159 for _ funding settlement which froze the licensee at £159 for two _ funding settlement which froze the licensee at £159 for two years. - funding settlement which froze the licensee at £159 for two years. the j licensee at £159 for two years. the two-year— licensee at £159 for two years. the two-year freeze _ licensee at £159 for two years. the two—year freeze has _ licensee at £159 for two years. the two—year freeze has already - licensee at £159 for two years. the two—year freeze has already saved | two—year freeze has already saved every _ two—year freeze has already saved every fee — two—year freeze has already saved every fee per— two—year freeze has already saved every fee per £17— two—year freeze has already saved every fee per £17 over _ two—year freeze has already saved every fee per £17 over 2022 - two—year freeze has already saved every fee per £17 over 2022 and i every fee per £17 over 2022 and 2025 _ every fee per £17 over 2022 and 2025 this _ every fee per £17 over 2022 and 2023. this settlement - every fee per £17 over 2022 and 2023. this settlement providedj every fee per £17 over 2022 and - 2023. this settlement provided vital support— 2023. this settlement provided vital support for— 2023. this settlement provided vital support for households _ 2023. this settlement provided vital support for households when - support for households when inflation _ support for households when inflation was _ support for households when inflation was at _ support for households when inflation was at its _ support for households when inflation was at its highest i support for households when i inflation was at its highest while giving _ inflation was at its highest while giving the — inflation was at its highest while giving the bbc_ inflation was at its highest while giving the bbc the _ inflation was at its highest while giving the bbc the funding - inflation was at its highest while giving the bbc the funding it - inflation was at its highest while - giving the bbc the funding it needed to deliver— giving the bbc the funding it needed to deliver on — giving the bbc the funding it needed to deliver on its _ giving the bbc the funding it needed to deliver on its remit. _ giving the bbc the funding it needed to deliver on its remit. under- giving the bbc the funding it needed to deliver on its remit. under the . to deliver on its remit. under the terms _ to deliver on its remit. under the terms of— to deliver on its remit. under the terms of the _ to deliver on its remit. under the terms of the settlement, - to deliver on its remit. under the terms of the settlement, the - terms of the settlement, the licensee _ terms of the settlement, the licensee must _ terms of the settlement, the licensee must now— terms of the settlement, the licensee must now increase i terms of the settlement, the - licensee must now increase annually in line _ licensee must now increase annually in line with _ licensee must now increase annually in line with the — licensee must now increase annually in line with the cpi, _ licensee must now increase annually in line with the cpi, with— licensee must now increase annually in line with the cpi, with the - licensee must now increase annually in line with the cpi, with the first. in line with the cpi, with the first increase — in line with the cpi, with the first increase due _ in line with the cpi, with the first increase due in _ in line with the cpi, with the first increase due in april— in line with the cpi, with the first increase due in april 2024. - in line with the cpi, with the first increase due in april 2024. the i increase due in april 2024. the government— increase due in april 2024. the government is— increase due in april 2024. the government is committed - increase due in april 2024. the government is committed to i government is committed to supporting _ government is committed to supporting families- government is committed to supporting families as - government is committed to supporting families as much| government is committed to i supporting families as much as possible — supporting families as much as possible during _ supporting families as much as possible during these - supporting families as much as possible during these difficult. possible during these difficult times — possible during these difficult times we _ possible during these difficult times. we recognise - possible during these difficult times. we recognise the - possible during these difficult times. we recognise the bill. possible during these difficult - times. we recognise the bill rises are never— times. we recognise the bill rises are never welcome _ times. we recognise the bill rises are never welcome and _ times. we recognise the bill rises are never welcome and family- times. we recognise the bill rises- are never welcome and family budgets remain— are never welcome and family budgets remain under— are never welcome and family budgets remain under pressure. _ are never welcome and family budgets remain under pressure. today, - are never welcome and family budgets remain under pressure. today, i- are never welcome and family budgets remain under pressure. today, i am i remain under pressure. today, i am announcing — remain under pressure. today, i am announcing that _ remain under pressure. today, i am announcing that we _ remain under pressure. today, i am announcing that we will— remain under pressure. today, i am announcing that we will use - remain under pressure. today, i am announcing that we will use the - announcing that we will use the annual— announcing that we will use the annual rate _ announcing that we will use the annual rate of _ announcing that we will use the annual rate of cpi _ announcing that we will use the annual rate of cpi in _ announcing that we will use the j annual rate of cpi in september announcing that we will use the - annual rate of cpi in september two calculate _ annual rate of cpi in september two calculate the — annual rate of cpi in september two calculate the increase _ annual rate of cpi in september two calculate the increase of— annual rate of cpi in september two calculate the increase of the - annual rate of cpi in september two calculate the increase of the bbc. calculate the increase of the bbc licence _ calculate the increase of the bbc licence fee — calculate the increase of the bbc licence fee in— calculate the increase of the bbc licence fee in april— calculate the increase of the bbc licence fee in april 2024. - calculate the increase of the bbc licence fee in april 2024. this i calculate the increase of the bbc licence fee in april 2024. this is| licence fee in april 2024. this is the same — licence fee in april 2024. this is the same way— licence fee in april 2024. this is the same way the _ licence fee in april 2024. this is the same way the government i the same way the government calculates— the same way the government calculates inflation— the same way the government calculates inflation linked - calculates inflation linked increases _ calculates inflation linked increases to _ calculates inflation linked increases to state - calculates inflation linked i increases to state pensions calculates inflation linked - increases to state pensions and benefits — increases to state pensions and benefits. this _ increases to state pensions and benefits. this means _ increases to state pensions and benefits. this means the - increases to state pensions andl benefits. this means the licence increases to state pensions and - benefits. this means the licence fee increase _ benefits. this means the licence fee increase will— benefits. this means the licence fee increase will be _ benefits. this means the licence fee increase will be kept _ benefits. this means the licence fee increase will be kept as _ benefits. this means the licence fee increase will be kept as low - benefits. this means the licence fee increase will be kept as low as - increase will be kept as low as possible _ increase will be kept as low as possible in— increase will be kept as low as possible. in april, _ increase will be kept as low as possible. in april, the - increase will be kept as low as possible. in april, the licencel increase will be kept as low as i possible. in april, the licence fee will rise _ possible. in april, the licence fee will rise by— possible. in april, the licence fee will rise by 6.7% _ possible. in april, the licence fee will rise by 6.7% to _ possible. in april, the licence fee will rise by 6.7% to £169.50 - will rise by 6.7% to £169.50 annually~ _ will rise by 6.7% to £169.50 annually. this _ will rise by 6.7% to £169.50 annually. this will- will rise by 6.7% to £169.50 annually. this will minimise will rise by 6.7% to £169.50 - annually. this will minimise the rise for— annually. this will minimise the rise for households _ annually. this will minimise the rise for households keeping - annually. this will minimise the rise for households keeping it i annually. this will minimise the | rise for households keeping it to £1050 _ rise for households keeping it to £1050 over— rise for households keeping it to £10.50 over the _ rise for households keeping it to £10.50 over the year— rise for households keeping it to £10.50 over the year or- rise for households keeping it to £10.50 over the year or 88p - rise for households keeping it to £10.50 over the year or 88p per| £10.50 over the year or 88p per month— £10.50 over the year or 88p per month rather— £10.50 over the year or 88p per month rather than— £10.50 over the year or 88p per month rather than the - £10.50 over the year or 88p per month rather than the rise - £10.50 over the year or 88p per month rather than the rise of. £10.50 over the year or 88p per| month rather than the rise of £14 £10.50 over the year or 88p per- month rather than the rise of £14 50 which _ month rather than the rise of £14 50 which would — month rather than the rise of £14 50 which would have _ month rather than the rise of £14 50 which would have happened - month rather than the rise of £14 50 which would have happened under. month rather than the rise of £14 50 i which would have happened under the previous— which would have happened under the previous cpi _ which would have happened under the previous cpi measure. _ which would have happened under the previous cpi measure. whilst - which would have happened under the previous cpi measure. whilst we - previous cpi measure. whilst we recognise — previous cpi measure. whilst we recognise household _ previous cpi measure. whilst we recognise household budgets- previous cpi measure. whilst we - recognise household budgets remain under— recognise household budgets remain under pressure — recognise household budgets remain under pressure this _ recognise household budgets remain under pressure this decision - under pressure this decision alongside _ under pressure this decision alongside a _ under pressure this decision alongside a two—year- under pressure this decision alongside a two—year freeze j under pressure this decision - alongside a two—year freeze will save _ alongside a two—year freeze will save individual— alongside a two—year freeze will save individual licence _ alongside a two—year freeze will save individual licence fee - alongside a two—year freeze willi save individual licence fee payers over 37 _ save individual licence fee payers over 37 pounds _ save individual licence fee payers over 37 pounds by— save individual licence fee payers over 37 pounds by the _ save individual licence fee payers over 37 pounds by the end - save individual licence fee payers over 37 pounds by the end of- save individual licence fee payers i over 37 pounds by the end of 2024. these _ over 37 pounds by the end of 2024. these interventions _ over 37 pounds by the end of 2024. these interventions support - these interventions support households _ these interventions support households whilst _ these interventions support households whilst also - these interventions support - households whilst also providing the bbc with— households whilst also providing the bbc with £58 — households whilst also providing the bbc with £3.8 billion _ households whilst also providing the bbc with £3.8 billion to _ households whilst also providing the bbc with £3.8 billion to produce - households whilst also providing the bbc with £3.8 billion to produce itsi bbc with £3.8 billion to produce its world _ bbc with £3.8 billion to produce its world leading — bbc with £3.8 billion to produce its world leading content. _ bbc with £3.8 billion to produce its world leading content. the - world leading content. the government— world leading content. the government engaged - world leading content. the government engaged with| world leading content. the - government engaged with both the world leading content. the _ government engaged with both the bbc and s foresee _ government engaged with both the bbc and s foresee to — government engaged with both the bbc and s foresee to understand _ government engaged with both the bbc and s foresee to understand the - and s foresee to understand the impact — and s foresee to understand the impact on — and s foresee to understand the impact on the _ and s foresee to understand the impact on the finances - and s foresee to understand the impact on the finances of - and s foresee to understand the impact on the finances of both i impact on the finances of both broadcasters. _ impact on the finances of both broadcasters. this _ impact on the finances of both broadcasters. this decision . impact on the finances of bothi broadcasters. this decision will also _ broadcasters. this decision will also ensure _ broadcasters. this decision will also ensure that _ broadcasters. this decision will also ensure that 54c— broadcasters. this decision will also ensure that s4c which - broadcasters. this decision will also ensure that s4c which is i broadcasters. this decision will. also ensure that s4c which is also funded _ also ensure that s4c which is also funded by— also ensure that s4c which is also funded by the _ also ensure that s4c which is also funded by the licensee _ also ensure that s4c which is also funded by the licensee can- also ensure that s4c which is also i funded by the licensee can continue its unique _ funded by the licensee can continue its unique role _ funded by the licensee can continue its unique role supporting _ funded by the licensee can continue its unique role supporting the - funded by the licensee can continuel its unique role supporting the welsh language _ its unique role supporting the welsh language. although _ its unique role supporting the welsh language. although we _ its unique role supporting the welsh language. although we have - its unique role supporting the welsh language. although we have taken i language. although we have taken steps _ language. although we have taken steps to— language. although we have taken steps to ensure _ language. although we have taken steps to ensure the _ language. although we have taken steps to ensure the uplift - language. although we have taken steps to ensure the uplift is - language. although we have taken steps to ensure the uplift is kept i steps to ensure the uplift is kept as low— steps to ensure the uplift is kept as low as — steps to ensure the uplift is kept as low as possible, _ steps to ensure the uplift is kept as low as possible, we _ steps to ensure the uplift is kept as low as possible, we recognise that £1050 _ as low as possible, we recognise that £10.50 will— as low as possible, we recognise that £10.50 will still— as low as possible, we recognise that £10.50 will still be - as low as possible, we recognise that £10.50 will still be felt - as low as possible, we recognise that £10.50 will still be felt by i that £10.50 will still be felt by licence — that £10.50 will still be felt by licence fee _ that £10.50 will still be felt by licence fee payers. _ that £10.50 will still be felt by licence fee payers. the - that £10.50 will still be felt by| licence fee payers. the number that £10.50 will still be felt by - licence fee payers. the number of licensee _ licence fee payers. the number of licensee payers _ licence fee payers. the number of licensee payers is _ licence fee payers. the number of licensee payers is also _ licence fee payers. the number of licensee payers is also declining i licensee payers is also declining with an — licensee payers is also declining with an increasingly _ licensee payers is also declining with an increasingly competitive media _ with an increasingly competitive media landscape. _ with an increasingly competitive media landscape. we _ with an increasingly competitive media landscape. we need - with an increasingly competitive media landscape. we need to i with an increasingly competitive - media landscape. we need to make sure the _ media landscape. we need to make sure the cost— media landscape. we need to make sure the cost of— media landscape. we need to make sure the cost of the _ media landscape. we need to make sure the cost of the bbc— media landscape. we need to make sure the cost of the bbc does - media landscape. we need to make sure the cost of the bbc does not i sure the cost of the bbc does not rise exponentially, _ sure the cost of the bbc does not rise exponentially, nor— sure the cost of the bbc does not rise exponentially, nor that - sure the cost of the bbc does not rise exponentially, nor that it- sure the cost of the bbc does not rise exponentially, nor that it is. rise exponentially, nor that it is borne _ rise exponentially, nor that it is borne by— rise exponentially, nor that it is borne by smaller— rise exponentially, nor that it is borne by smaller number - rise exponentially, nor that it is borne by smaller number of - rise exponentially, nor that it is borne by smaller number of fee payers~ — borne by smaller number of fee payers. we _ borne by smaller number of fee payers. we have _ borne by smaller number of fee payers. we have already- borne by smaller number of fee payers. we have already seen i borne by smaller number of fee i payers. we have already seen an increasing — payers. we have already seen an increasing number— payers. we have already seen an increasing number of— payers. we have already seen anj increasing number of households choosing — increasing number of households choosing not— increasing number of households choosing not to _ increasing number of households choosing not to hold _ increasing number of households choosing not to hold a _ increasing number of households choosing not to hold a tv - increasing number of householdsl choosing not to hold a tv licence. increasing number of households i choosing not to hold a tv licence. a number _ choosing not to hold a tv licence. a number of _ choosing not to hold a tv licence. a number of households _ choosing not to hold a tv licence. a number of households holding - choosing not to hold a tv licence. a number of households holding tv i number of households holding tv licences _ number of households holding tv licences fell— number of households holding tv licences fell 400,000 _ number of households holding tv licences fell 400,000 last - number of households holding tv licences fell 400,000 last year. i number of households holding tvi licences fell 400,000 last year. it has declined — licences fell 400,000 last year. it has declined by— licences fell 400,000 last year. it has declined by about _ licences fell 400,000 last year. it has declined by about 1.7 - licences fell 400,000 last year. it has declined by about 1.7 million, i has declined by about 1.7 million, in placing — has declined by about 1.7 million, in placing increasing _ has declined by about 1.7 million, in placing increasing pressure - has declined by about 1.7 million, in placing increasing pressure oni in placing increasing pressure on the bbc— in placing increasing pressure on the bbc licensee _ in placing increasing pressure on the bbc licensee income. - in placing increasing pressure on the bbc licensee income. we - in placing increasing pressure on| the bbc licensee income. we are in placing increasing pressure on- the bbc licensee income. we are also seeing _ the bbc licensee income. we are also seeing a _ the bbc licensee income. we are also seeing a rapidly— the bbc licensee income. we are also seeing a rapidly changing _ the bbc licensee income. we are also seeing a rapidly changing media - seeing a rapidly changing media landscape — seeing a rapidly changing media landscape with _ seeing a rapidly changing media landscape with more _ seeing a rapidly changing media landscape with more ways - seeing a rapidly changing media landscape with more ways for. landscape with more ways for audiences— landscape with more ways for audiences to _ landscape with more ways for audiences to watch _ landscape with more ways for audiences to watch content. i audiences to watch content. viewership— audiences to watch content. viewership fell— audiences to watch content. viewership fell significantlyl audiences to watch content. i viewership fell significantly in 2022 — viewership fell significantly in 2022 with— viewership fell significantly in 2022 with reach _ viewership fell significantly in 2022 with reach falling - viewership fell significantly in 2022 with reach falling to - viewership fell significantly in| 2022 with reach falling to 79% viewership fell significantly in i 2022 with reach falling to 79% in 2022~ _ 2022 with reach falling to 79% in 2022~ as — 2022 with reach falling to 79% in 2022~ as this _ 2022 with reach falling to 79% in 2022. as this trend _ 2022 with reach falling to 79% in 2022. as this trend continues, i 2022. as this trend continues, linking — 2022. as this trend continues, linking the _ 2022. as this trend continues, linking the tv _ 2022. as this trend continues, linking the tv licence - 2022. as this trend continues, linking the tv licence to - 2022. as this trend continues, i linking the tv licence to watching live tv _ linking the tv licence to watching live tv will — linking the tv licence to watching live tv will become _ linking the tv licence to watching live tv will become increasingly i live tv will become increasingly anachronistic— live tv will become increasingly anachronistic as _ live tv will become increasingly anachronistic as audience - live tv will become increasingly i anachronistic as audience viewing habits _ anachronistic as audience viewing habits continue _ anachronistic as audience viewing habits continue to _ anachronistic as audience viewing habits continue to move - anachronistic as audience viewing habits continue to move to - anachronistic as audience viewing j habits continue to move to digital and on _ habits continue to move to digital and on demand _ habits continue to move to digital and on demand media. _ habits continue to move to digital and on demand media. we - habits continue to move to digital and on demand media. we knowl habits continue to move to digital- and on demand media. we know that if we want _ and on demand media. we know that if we want to— and on demand media. we know that if we want to bbc— and on demand media. we know that if we want to bbc to _ and on demand media. we know that if we want to bbc to succeed, _ and on demand media. we know that if we want to bbc to succeed, we - and on demand media. we know that if we want to bbc to succeed, we cannotl we want to bbc to succeed, we cannot freeze _ we want to bbc to succeed, we cannot freeze its — we want to bbc to succeed, we cannot freeze its income. — we want to bbc to succeed, we cannot freeze its income. but— we want to bbc to succeed, we cannot freeze its income. but at— we want to bbc to succeed, we cannot freeze its income. but at the - we want to bbc to succeed, we cannot freeze its income. but at the same - freeze its income. but at the same time. _ freeze its income. but at the same time. we _ freeze its income. but at the same time. we cannot— freeze its income. but at the same time, we cannot ask _ freeze its income. but at the same time, we cannot ask households . freeze its income. but at the same| time, we cannot ask households to pay more _ time, we cannot ask households to pay more to— time, we cannot ask households to pay more to support _ time, we cannot ask households to pay more to support the _ time, we cannot ask households to pay more to support the bbc - pay more to support the bbc indefinitely. _ pay more to support the bbc indefinitely. we _ pay more to support the bbc indefinitely. we are - pay more to support the bbc indefinitely. we are already. indefinitely. we are already supporting _ indefinitely. we are already supporting the _ indefinitely. we are already supporting the bbc - indefinitely. we are already supporting the bbc to - indefinitely. we are already. supporting the bbc to realise commercial— supporting the bbc to realise commercial opportunities - supporting the bbc to realise . commercial opportunities which supporting the bbc to realise - commercial opportunities which will make _ commercial opportunities which will make it _ commercial opportunities which will make it more — commercial opportunities which will make it more financially _ commercial opportunities which will| make it more financially sustainable and will _ make it more financially sustainable and will continue _ make it more financially sustainable and will continue to _ make it more financially sustainable and will continue to explore - make it more financially sustainable and will continue to explore these i and will continue to explore these provisionally— and will continue to explore these provisionally with _ and will continue to explore these provisionally with the _ and will continue to explore these provisionally with the bbc. - and will continue to explore these provisionally with the bbc. this i provisionally with the bbc. this situation — provisionally with the bbc. this situation clearly— provisionally with the bbc. this situation clearly shows - provisionally with the bbc. this situation clearly shows the - provisionally with the bbc. this| situation clearly shows the need provisionally with the bbc. this . situation clearly shows the need to consider— situation clearly shows the need to consider the — situation clearly shows the need to consider the bbc's _ situation clearly shows the need to consider the bbc's funding - consider the bbc's funding arrangements _ consider the bbc's funding arrangements to— consider the bbc's funding arrangements to make - consider the bbc's fundingi arrangements to make sure consider the bbc's funding - arrangements to make sure they are fair for— arrangements to make sure they are fair for the _ arrangements to make sure they are fair for the public— arrangements to make sure they are fair for the public and _ arrangements to make sure they are fair for the public and sustainable i fair for the public and sustainable for the _ fair for the public and sustainable for the bbc _ fair for the public and sustainable for the bbc. therefore _ fair for the public and sustainable for the bbc. therefore i- fair for the public and sustainable for the bbc. therefore i am - for the bbc. therefore i am announcing _ for the bbc. therefore i am announcing today _ for the bbc. therefore i am announcing today that - for the bbc. therefore i am announcing today that the i for the bbc. therefore i am _ announcing today that the government is launching _ announcing today that the government is launching a — announcing today that the government is launching a review— announcing today that the government is launching a review of— announcing today that the government is launching a review of the _ announcing today that the government is launching a review of the bbc- is launching a review of the bbc funding — is launching a review of the bbc funding model. _ is launching a review of the bbc funding model. we _ is launching a review of the bbc funding model. we will- is launching a review of the bbc funding model. we will ensurei is launching a review of the bbci funding model. we will ensure it is launching a review of the bbc. funding model. we will ensure it is fair to— funding model. we will ensure it is fair to the — funding model. we will ensure it is fair to the public, _ funding model. we will ensure it is fair to the public, sustainable - funding model. we will ensure it is fair to the public, sustainable fori fair to the public, sustainable for the long-term _ fair to the public, sustainable for the long—term and _ fair to the public, sustainable for the long—term and supports- fair to the public, sustainable for the long—term and supports thei fair to the public, sustainable for- the long—term and supports the bbc's vital role _ the long—term and supports the bbc's vital role in _ the long—term and supports the bbc's vital role in growing _ the long—term and supports the bbc's vital role in growing our _ the long—term and supports the bbc's vital role in growing our creative - vital role in growing our creative industries — vital role in growing our creative industries. the _ vital role in growing our creative industries. the review— vital role in growing our creative industries. the review will- vital role in growing our creative industries. the review will be i vital role in growing our creative i industries. the review will be led by the _ industries. the review will be led by the dcms— industries. the review will be led by the dcms and _ industries. the review will be led by the dcms and supported - industries. the review will be led by the dcms and supported by i industries. the review will be led| by the dcms and supported by an expert— by the dcms and supported by an expert panel— by the dcms and supported by an expert panel assessing _ by the dcms and supported by an expert panel assessing a - by the dcms and supported by an expert panel assessing a range i by the dcms and supported by anj expert panel assessing a range of options _ expert panel assessing a range of options funding _ expert panel assessing a range of options funding the _ expert panel assessing a range of options funding the bbc. - expert panel assessing a range of options funding the bbc. we - expert panel assessing a range of options funding the bbc. we are| options funding the bbc. we are clear— options funding the bbc. we are clear that — options funding the bbc. we are clear that we _ options funding the bbc. we are clear that we want _ options funding the bbc. we are clear that we want to _ options funding the bbc. we are clear that we want to bbc- options funding the bbc. we are clear that we want to bbc to - clear that we want to bbc to succeed _ clear that we want to bbc to succeed to— clear that we want to bbc to succeed. to increase - clear that we want to bbc to succeed. to increase its - clear that we want to bbc to - succeed. to increase its commercial revenues— succeed. to increase its commercial revenues to — succeed. to increase its commercial revenues to reduce _ succeed. to increase its commercial revenues to reduce the _ succeed. to increase its commercial revenues to reduce the burden - succeed. to increase its commercial revenues to reduce the burden on i revenues to reduce the burden on licence _ revenues to reduce the burden on licence repairs _ revenues to reduce the burden on licence repairs full— revenues to reduce the burden on licence repairs full sub _ revenues to reduce the burden on licence repairs full sub given - licence repairs full sub given pressure _ licence repairs full sub given pressure on _ licence repairs full sub given pressure on household - licence repairs full sub given - pressure on household incomes, i can expressly— pressure on household incomes, i can expressly rule — pressure on household incomes, i can expressly rule out _ pressure on household incomes, i can expressly rule out this _ pressure on household incomes, i can expressly rule out this review - pressure on household incomes, i can expressly rule out this review will - expressly rule out this review will look at _ expressly rule out this review will look at creating _ expressly rule out this review will look at creating a _ expressly rule out this review will look at creating a need _ expressly rule out this review will look at creating a need to - expressly rule out this review will look at creating a need to set - expressly rule out this review will| look at creating a need to set new taxes _ look at creating a need to set new taxes the — look at creating a need to set new taxes. the findings _ look at creating a need to set new taxes. the findings of— look at creating a need to set new taxes. the findings of the - look at creating a need to set new taxes. the findings of the review. taxes. the findings of the review will support _ taxes. the findings of the review will support the _ taxes. the findings of the review will support the government - taxes. the findings of the review will support the government to i taxes. the findings of the review - will support the government to make an informed — will support the government to make an informed choice _ will support the government to make an informed choice on— will support the government to make an informed choice on whether- will support the government to make an informed choice on whether to- an informed choice on whether to move _ an informed choice on whether to move to — an informed choice on whether to move to alternative _ an informed choice on whether to move to alternative funding - an informed choice on whether to. move to alternative funding models. this will— move to alternative funding models. this will take — move to alternative funding models. this will take place _ move to alternative funding models. this will take place as _ move to alternative funding models. this will take place as the _ move to alternative funding models. this will take place as the part - move to alternative funding models. this will take place as the part of - this will take place as the part of the charter— this will take place as the part of the charter review— this will take place as the part of the charter review process - this will take place as the part ofj the charter review process where this will take place as the part of - the charter review process where any final decision — the charter review process where any final decision on _ the charter review process where any final decision on reforming _ the charter review process where any final decision on reforming the - the charter review process where any final decision on reforming the bbc. final decision on reforming the bbc funding _ final decision on reforming the bbc funding model— final decision on reforming the bbc funding model would _ final decision on reforming the bbc funding model would be _ final decision on reforming the bbc funding model would be taken. - final decision on reforming the bbcj funding model would be taken. the bbc is _ funding model would be taken. the bbc is a _ funding model would be taken. the bbc is a great — funding model would be taken. the bbc is a great national— funding model would be taken. the bbc is a great national institution. i bbc is a great national institution. and we _ bbc is a great national institution. and we want— bbc is a great national institution. and we want to _ bbc is a great national institution. and we want to ensure _ bbc is a great national institution. and we want to ensure its - bbc is a great national institution. and we want to ensure its fit - bbc is a great national institution. and we want to ensure its fit for. and we want to ensure its fit for the present— and we want to ensure its fit for the present and _ and we want to ensure its fit for the present and whatever - and we want to ensure its fit for the present and whatever the i and we want to ensure its fit for- the present and whatever the future holds _ the present and whatever the future holds whilst— the present and whatever the future holds. whilst keeping _ the present and whatever the future holds. whilst keeping costs - the present and whatever the future holds. whilst keeping costs down i the present and whatever the future | holds. whilst keeping costs down for the public _ holds. whilst keeping costs down for the public this — holds. whilst keeping costs down for the public. this means— holds. whilst keeping costs down for the public. this means ensuring - holds. whilst keeping costs down for the public. this means ensuring thel the public. this means ensuring the bbc is _ the public. this means ensuring the bbc is supported _ the public. this means ensuring the bbc is supported by— the public. this means ensuring the bbc is supported by a _ the public. this means ensuring the bbc is supported by a funding - the public. this means ensuring thei bbc is supported by a funding model that is— bbc is supported by a funding model that is fair— bbc is supported by a funding model that is fair to — bbc is supported by a funding model that is fair to audiences, _ bbc is supported by a funding model that is fair to audiences, supports i that is fair to audiences, supports the creative — that is fair to audiences, supports the creative industries _ that is fair to audiences, supports the creative industries and - that is fair to audiences, supports the creative industries and is - the creative industries and is sustainable _ the creative industries and is sustainable in— the creative industries and is sustainable in the _ the creative industries and is sustainable in the age - the creative industries and is sustainable in the age of- the creative industries and is . sustainable in the age of digital and on — sustainable in the age of digital and on demand _ sustainable in the age of digital and on demand media. - sustainable in the age of digital and on demand media. i- sustainable in the age of digital. and on demand media. i commend sustainable in the age of digital- and on demand media. i commend the statement _ and on demand media. i commend the statement to _ and on demand media. i commend the statement to the _ and on demand media. i commend the statement to the house. _ and on demand media. i commend the statement to the house.— statement to the house. chatham secretary of _ statement to the house. chatham secretary of state _ statement to the house. chatham secretary of state thangam - secretary of state thangam debbonaire.— secretary of state thangam debbonaire. ., , , , debbonaire. madam deputy speaker. workin: debbonaire. madam deputy speaker. working people _ debbonaire. madam deputy speaker. working people listening _ debbonaire. madam deputy speaker. working people listening to - debbonaire. madam deputy speaker. working people listening to the - working people listening to the secretary of state's pitiful comment on the support of cost—of—living crisis are not full. they see exactly what this is. we have had weak merely mouth platitudes that will make no material difference to their lives. 33p per month is what i understand the difference to be between today's announcement and the daily government already agreed to. that is not nothing, but does she really think that is going to even touch the sides? is she, as the prime minister so out of touch that they think this is going to get people through the tory cost of living crisis? they crash the economy sending mortgages and rents sky—high, they height taxes on working people, they have presided over 13 years of stagnant economic growth, madam deputy speaker, 13. and what is the cost of the government's announcement today? the creative industries are one of the best sources of economic growth and quality jobs best sources of economic growth and qualityjobs in the country and the bbc is the biggest commissioner of work in the creative industries. so has the secretary of state worked out what the impact of choosing that particular inflationary measure will have on economic growth and jobs? how she worked out what it will have on the other creative businesses they commission and on their supply chain? has she worked out what this difference will make on the bbc's crucial role as our soft power superpower that promotes brand britain around the world? has she worked out what the impact will be on democracy given the bbc's rollers the most trusted source of news anywhere in the world? and when it comes to the funding model review, i understand the terms of reference are overtly focused on the commercial side of the bbc. why is she seemingly, i did not hear a word about the public service element of the bbc. she mentioned the expert panel. can she tell us who would be on the panel? the timetable they work to, can she tell us where the public service element will feature in the government's terms of reference? as the government actually given up on the bbc as a public service broadcaster? i'm afraid to say it all sounds like yet more broken tory promises. this is no way to treat one of our great institutions, no way to treat millions of people who work at the bbc, their partners and people around the world who value them so much because let's not forget, this comes on the back of a two—year freeze which has already had a damaging impact. we havejust got more and more signs at the moment of which isjust the more and more signs at the moment of which is just the latest of chaotic decision—making, of a flailing, failing government, led by a prime minister too weak to control his own party and ministers making working people pay for their mistakes. and it is a sign of the disdain the tories have for this role that there has been 12 secretaries of state in those 13 years, topping the reshuffle charts which brings instability to this department, this department which is for economic growth. our great institutions, public services and working people just cannot take any more of this chaos. labour backs the bbc, we will grow our creative industries, we will spread the benefits across the country and a general election cannot come a moment too soon. secretary of state.— cannot come a moment too soon. secretary of state. madam deputy seaker. .. secretary of state. madam deputy speaker--- l— secretary of state. madam deputy speaker... i think _ secretary of state. madam deputy speaker... i think the _ secretary of state. madam deputy speaker... i think the shadow - speaker... i think the shadow secretary— speaker... i think the shadow secretary of _ speaker... i think the shadow secretary of state _ speaker... i think the shadow secretary of state needs - speaker... i think the shadow secretary of state needs to i speaker... i think the shadow. secretary of state needs to live speaker... i think the shadow- secretary of state needs to live in the real world _ secretary of state needs to live in the real world like _ secretary of state needs to live in the real world like the _ secretary of state needs to live in the real world like the rest - secretary of state needs to live in the real world like the rest of- secretary of state needs to live in the real world like the rest of us. | the real world like the rest of us. studio: — the real world like the rest of us. studio: that— the real world like the rest of us. studio: that is— the real world like the rest of us. studio: that is the _ the real world like the rest of us. studio: that is the culture - studio: that is the culture secretary lucy frazer in the commons confirming the bbc licence fee will rise by £10.50, £169 50. lucy frazer said the rise was as low as possible. she said that supporting households whilst providing the bbc with £3.8 households whilst providing the bbc with 5.8 billion programming is what it would mean. but she did also recognise that £10.50 rise would still be felt by people. but she said they needed to consider bbc funding on that. she announced a review of the bbc's funding model. she said they will look at a range of options forfunding she said they will look at a range of options for funding the bbc including looking at how the bbc can increase its commercial revenue but stress at the moment they will not look at creating any new taxes. let's return to the covid inquiry now. borisjohnson has been questioned and is being questioned about the downing street party is and other issues. let's take a lesson into the covid inquiry. i want to thank paul downton on what he did _ want to thank paul downton on what he did prosecuting people... you are deflectina he did prosecuting people... you are deflecting again. _ he did prosecuting people... you are deflecting again, aren't _ he did prosecuting people... you are deflecting again, aren't you? - he did prosecuting people... you are deflecting again, aren't you? no, - he did prosecuting people... you are deflecting again, aren't you? no, i. deflecting again, aren't you? no, i am tellin: deflecting again, aren't you? no, i am telling you _ deflecting again, aren't you? no, i am telling you what _ deflecting again, aren't you? no, i am telling you what we _ deflecting again, aren't you? no, i am telling you what we did. - deflecting again, aren't you? no, i am telling you what we did. i - deflecting again, aren't you? no, i| am telling you what we did. i would like to move _ am telling you what we did. i would like to move on _ am telling you what we did. i would like to move on to _ am telling you what we did. i would like to move on to final _ am telling you what we did. i would like to move on to final point - am telling you what we did. i would like to move on to final point if - am telling you what we did. i would like to move on to final point if i . like to move on to final point if i may. jumping to september, the 11th of september, can we have on the screen 280061, page 153? this is september, mr key has dealt with much of this or i can deal with it very quickly. this is a page from professor vallance's diaries. relating to that day. i will read it through quickly. schools data reviewed on the dashboard. you said what am i being told? is this a great triumph? mr hancock says yes, a great triumph. professor vallance comments care homes upward spike in the last few days, here we go again. you said, and this is the critical point, one of the two critical points, you say, "we need to remember the grim history of march." and then professor vallance called for a package of actions, mr hancock refers to care home winter plan. then you say, "everyone says the rule of six is so unfair, punishing the young, but... daily mail. i apologise for my language. it the young, but... daily mail. i. apologise for my language. it is the young, but... daily mail. i- apologise for my language. it is in caital apologise for my language. it is in capital letters _ apologise for my language. it is in capital letters and _ apologise for my language. it is in capital letters and underlined. - apologise for my language. it is in | capital letters and underlined. not b me. capital letters and underlined. not by me- we — capital letters and underlined. not by me- we need — capital letters and underlined. not by me. we need to _ capital letters and underlined. not by me. we need to tell _ capital letters and underlined. not by me. we need to tell them, - by me. we need to tell them, hosital by me. we need to tell them, hospital admissions _ by me. we need to tell them, hospital admissions are - by me. we need to tell them, - hospital admissions are beginning to increase. do you remember this and the flavour of it?— the flavour of it? now, but what i can tell you _ the flavour of it? now, but what i can tell you if— the flavour of it? now, but what i can tell you if indeed _ the flavour of it? now, but what i can tell you if indeed it _ the flavour of it? now, but what i can tell you if indeed it is - can tell you if indeed it is accurate, _ can tell you if indeed it is accurate, as what i would have been saying _ accurate, as what i would have been saying is_ accurate, as what i would have been saying is that this is september, we are in— saying is that this is september, we are in a, _ saying is that this is september, we are in a, as — saying is that this is september, we are in a, as i — saying is that this is september, we are in a, as i was saying earlier to mr keith. — are in a, as i was saying earlier to mr keith, you can see the risk that the risk— mr keith, you can see the risk that the risk of— mr keith, you can see the risk that the risk of viruses going to start taking _ the risk of viruses going to start taking off... the risk of viruses going to start taking off- - -_ the risk of viruses going to start taking off... that exact what i'm ”uttin taking off... that exact what i'm putting to _ taking off... that exact what i'm putting to use- _ taking off... that exact what i'm putting to use. with _ taking off... that exact what i'm putting to use. with great - taking off... that exact what i'm l putting to use. with great respect to ou, it putting to use. with great respect to you. it looks — putting to use. with great respect to you, it looks to _ putting to use. with great respect to you, it looks to me _ putting to use. with great respect to you, it looks to me as - putting to use. with great respect to you, it looks to me as if- putting to use. with great respect to you, it looks to me as if what l to you, it looks to me as if what i'm to you, it looks to me as if what i'm seeing — to you, it looks to me as if what i'm seeing here is that the priority is to, _ i'm seeing here is that the priority is to, and — i'm seeing here is that the priority is to, and sorry to have said this about— is to, and sorry to have said this about the — is to, and sorry to have said this about the mail, but the priority is to stop _ about the mail, but the priority is to stop deaths. wait about the mail, but the priority is to stop deaths.— to stop deaths. wait for the question- — to stop deaths. wait for the question. you _ to stop deaths. wait for the question. you were - to stop deaths. wait for the question. you were there, l question. you were there, recognising that we were back in a position not dissimilar to march. also recognising with reference to part of the media that you have got competing pressure, aren't you? that's what's going on. you are saying let's look for a package of measures. saying let's look for a package of measures— saying let's look for a package of measures. , ., ., ., ., . ., measures. just for the avoidance of doubt, i measures. just for the avoidance of doubt. i don't _ measures. just for the avoidance of doubt, i don't think _ measures. just for the avoidance of doubt, i don't think this _ measures. just for the avoidance of doubt, i don't think this is - measures. just for the avoidance of doubt, i don't think this is meant i doubt, i don't think this is meant to be _ doubt, i don't think this is meant to be a _ doubt, i don't think this is meant to be a general criticism of that great _ to be a general criticism of that great organisation... i�*m to be a general criticism of that great organisation. . ._ great organisation... i'm not suggesting _ great organisation... i'm not suggesting it _ great organisation... i'm not suggesting it is. _ great organisation... i'm not suggesting it is. presumablyi great organisation... i'm not - suggesting it is. presumably there was something — suggesting it is. presumably there was something that _ suggesting it is. presumably there was something that had _ suggesting it is. presumably there was something that had been - suggesting it is. presumably there was something that had been said| was something that had been said that wound me up about the rule of six or— that wound me up about the rule of six or whatever. and what i was saying _ six or whatever. and what i was saying was, _ six or whatever. and what i was saying was, we need restrictions. i think— saying was, we need restrictions. i think probably what i'm saying is, which _ think probably what i'm saying is, which i _ think probably what i'm saying is, which i then did because on the ninth _ which i then did because on the ninth i — which i then did because on the ninth i save that we have got to have _ ninth i save that we have got to have the — ninth i save that we have got to have the rule of six.— ninth i save that we have got to have the rule of six. that's where i'm auoin have the rule of six. that's where i'm going with — have the rule of six. that's where i'm going with this. _ have the rule of six. that's where i'm going with this. you - have the rule of six. that's where i'm going with this. you are - i'm going with this. you are recognising, not what your head somewhere else, you're recognising the problem, back in a position not dissimilar to march, recognising something has to be done and as opposition to that, you have got this tension will stop that's right, isn't it? that's what this reflects. that's what was at the heart of the whole _ that's what was at the heart of the whole debate, of course, but i hope that everybody understands, priority was saving _ that everybody understands, priority was saving lives. then that everybody understands, priority was saving lives.— was saving lives. then we get to the 21st of september _ was saving lives. then we get to the 21st of september with _ was saving lives. then we get to the 21st of september with sage - 21st of september with sage recommending this circuit breaker just ten days later, i circuit breaker with a attached package. and you reject it. you go with a tiered system which you never refer back to sage, sage never gets to look at... with great respect, i think i can repeat— with great respect, i think i can repeat it— with great respect, i think i can repeat if you like what i said to the council for the inquiry but the 'ust the council for the inquiry but the just of— the council for the inquiry but the just of it — the council for the inquiry but the just of it is — the council for the inquiry but the just of it is that i thought there were _ just of it is that i thought there were downsides to the proposed circult— were downsides to the proposed circuit breaker and it wasn't as simple — circuit breaker and it wasn't as simple as— circuit breaker and it wasn't as simple as all of that, it was immensely destructive. the risk was you would _ immensely destructive. the risk was you would have to keep doing it as they themselves acknowledge, the health _ they themselves acknowledge, the health secretary did not support it. ithought— health secretary did not support it. i thought the best thing at least four i thought the best thing at least tour a _ i thought the best thing at least four a while was to see if we could out intensify the national measures... out intensify the national measures. . ._ out intensify the national measures. . . out intensify the national measures... ., ., ., g , measures... you have said that. just this before — measures... you have said that. just this before i — measures... you have said that. just this before i sit _ measures... you have said that. just this before i sit down. _ measures... you have said that. just this before i sit down. what - measures... you have said that. just this before i sit down. what this - this before i sit down. what this demonstrates is that you understand the problem, you are caught in this tension between two sites, and you delay and your indecisive and the actual proper measures that bring the art down eventually punted off until the infection has spread. h0. untilthe infection has spread. no, if i ma until the infection has spread. no, if i may respectfully say, that is total— if i may respectfully say, that is total rubbish, and i have tried to deat— total rubbish, and i have tried to deal with— total rubbish, and i have tried to deal with that argument, i don't deal with that argument, idon't think— deal with that argument, i don't think it — deal with that argument, i don't think it stacks up, i think if you look— think it stacks up, i think if you look at — think it stacks up, i think if you look at the _ think it stacks up, i think if you look at the timing of events in march, — look at the timing of events in march, the sequence of things that we did, _ march, the sequence of things that we did, then the sequence of things that we _ we did, then the sequence of things that we did — we did, then the sequence of things that we did in september and october and november, they were reasonable, our priority— and november, they were reasonable, our priority was to protect the nhs and save _ our priority was to protect the nhs and save lives. by the way, the on like some — and save lives. by the way, the on like some other countries, we did not have — like some other countries, we did not have our health care system overwhelmed and in that respect at least, _ overwhelmed and in that respect at least, in _ overwhelmed and in that respect at least, in that respect the health—care system was not overwhelmed and in that respect, i think— overwhelmed and in that respect, i think that — overwhelmed and in that respect, i think that the efforts of the british— think that the efforts of the british people paid off. we will break now. _ british people paid off. we will break now, the _ british people paid off. we will break now, the stenographer. british people paid off. we will. break now, the stenographer has british people paid off. we will- break now, the stenographer has had to long _ break now, the stenographer has had to long morning _ break now, the stenographer has had to long morning. mr— break now, the stenographer has had to long morning. mrjohnson, - break now, the stenographer has had to long morning. mrjohnson, this . to long morning. mrjohnson, this afternoon — to long morning. mrjohnson, this afternoon when _ to long morning. mrjohnson, this afternoon when you _ to long morning. mrjohnson, this afternoon when you answer- to long morning. mrjohnson, this afternoon when you answer the i afternoon when you answer the questions. _ afternoon when you answer the questions. i_ afternoon when you answer the questions, i appreciate - afternoon when you answer the questions, i appreciate it's - afternoon when you answer thej questions, i appreciate it's very difficult — questions, i appreciate it's very difficult but — questions, i appreciate it's very difficult but keep— questions, i appreciate it's very difficult but keep your- questions, i appreciate it's very difficult but keep your answersi difficult but keep your answers slower — difficult but keep your answers slower because _ difficult but keep your answers slower because the _ difficult but keep your answers . slower because the stenographer difficult but keep your answers - slower because the stenographer is trying _ slower because the stenographer is trying to— slower because the stenographer is trying to keep — slower because the stenographer is trying to keep up _ slower because the stenographer is trying to keep up i— slower because the stenographer is trying to keep up-— slower because the stenographer is trying to keep up-- i - slower because the stenographer is trying to keep up. iwill. i don't - trying to keep up. i will. i don't want to have _ trying to keep up. i will. i don't want to have to _ trying to keep up. i will. i don't want to have to repeat - trying to keep up. i will. i don't want to have to repeat my - trying to keep up.“ i don't - want to have to repeat my warnings, please _ want to have to repeat my warnings, please see _ want to have to repeat my warnings, please see what _ want to have to repeat my warnings, please see what i_ want to have to repeat my warnings, please see what i said _ want to have to repeat my warnings, please see what i said this— want to have to repeat my warnings, please see what i said this morning. please see what i said this morning because _ please see what i said this morning because otherwise _ please see what i said this morning because otherwise i'm _ please see what i said this morning because otherwise i'm going - please see what i said this morning because otherwise i'm going to- please see what i said this morning because otherwise i'm going to askj because otherwise i'm going to ask other— because otherwise i'm going to ask other people — because otherwise i'm going to ask other people to _ because otherwise i'm going to ask other people to leave _ because otherwise i'm going to ask other people to leave and - because otherwise i'm going to ask other people to leave and that's . other people to leave and that's lasting — other people to leave and that's lasting i— other people to leave and that's lasting i want _ other people to leave and that's lasting i want to _ other people to leave and that's lasting i want to do. _ lasting i want to do. studio: _ lasting i want to do. studio: lady- lasting i want to do. i studio: lady hallett lasting i want to do. - studio: lady hallett making lasting i want to do. _ studio: lady hallett making another reference to the fact there were outbursts and comments from the public gallery during that session of the former prime minister boris johnson giving evidence. apology for some of the offensive language you will have heard. let's cross to the covid inquiry and that warning came because there was a bit of an outburst when the lawyer for the bereaved families was questioning mr johnson and bereaved families was questioning mr johnson . , ., ., ., ., johnson and prior to that when asked about partygate. _ johnson and prior to that when asked about partygate, you _ johnson and prior to that when asked about partygate, you could _ johnson and prior to that when asked about partygate, you could hear - johnson and prior to that when asked about partygate, you could hear on l about partygate, you could hear on the feed there was tutting and jeering and in fact i'm told by colleagues in the room that there were indeed members of the public, people who have been coming here to protest going inside to the covid inquiry room to listen, making their views clear on borisjohnson. worth pointing out that some of the people in the inquiry more expected to do an impromptu press conference very shortly. you can see they have been protesting here and over the last couple of days, always the quite keen to make their voices heard that lady hallett keen to nature the proceedings are not disrupted. we knew we'd get to partygate and it was at the end of the main councils questioning he asked about partygate. borisjohnson apologised but was relatively defensive, he said the characterisation that the entire machine of number ten, all the civil servants involved for example where therefore involved, he said that was absurd. he said it was really unfair characterisation of mostly people who worked in number ten. we knew it was going to come to that and we know that i think it's quite telling obviously a crucial bit for a number of the bereaved families, baroness hallett made an unusual intervention, she normally doesn't get involved in proceedings and said that directly to boris johnson from talking to various people around the country, that she had felt that partygate had been something that had exacerbated the grief for their lost loved ones. there was another bit shortly after and kind of linked to the evidence about partygate that i think was really significant in boris johnson's witness statement or his evidence, was him talking about his repeatedly challenged about did you care? he was asked, the point about partygate care? he was asked, the point about pa rtygate was care? he was asked, the point about partygate was you didn't care about what people thought of you and your close aides were doing, aida did matter people so that you were partying. he got really angry and she got quite emotional because he said i have not talked about this much in public before, but essentially at don't forget boris johnson himself ended up in intensive care because he cut covid intensive care because he cut covid in april 2020 and said it was that experience that had really communicated to him the significance and appalling nature as he called it of the virus and that is why he wanted to protect people. he got visibly angry, visibly upset at the suggestion that he did not care about people. the suggestion that he did not care about people-— suggestion that he did not care about people. the former prime minister also _ about people. the former prime minister also defended - about people. the former prime minister also defended the - about people. the former prime minister also defended the eat l about people. the former prime i minister also defended the eat out to help out scheme which we all remember. to help out scheme which we all remember-— to help out scheme which we all remember. . ~ , , _, to help out scheme which we all remember. . ~ ,, _, . ~ remember. evidence keeps coming back to that moment- — remember. evidence keeps coming back to that moment. i _ remember. evidence keeps coming back to that moment. i think— remember. evidence keeps coming back to that moment. i think it _ remember. evidence keeps coming back to that moment. i think it sets - remember. evidence keeps coming back to that moment. i think it sets out - to that moment. i think it sets out what is likely to be questionably then chancellor now prime minister rishi sunak. it keeps coming back that basically, where the scientist consulted on it or not? boris johnson seemed to suggest in his witness statement that they were and then when he was asked about it today he said i assumed they were because it was such a big scheme and so well—publicised that it would basically be mad if that scheme had not, been run past the scientists. we did not get a clear answer whether it had been and past the scientist but i think very much trails what's going to happen next week when rishi sunak is questioned about it because it was essentially his baby, he was chancellor at the time, it was a treasury scheme to kick—start the hospitality industry after the lockdown. of course there has been some evidence it may have increased the virus, other evidence that it didn't but i think crucially and we'd go with it time and time again in the hearing is that it had again in the hearing is that it had a problem with messaging, that it, that government messaging was very difficult at the time, to take seriously virus.— difficult at the time, to take seriously virus. thank you very much, seriously virus. thank you very much. we _ seriously virus. thank you very much, we will _ seriously virus. thank you very much, we will be _ seriously virus. thank you very much, we will be back- seriously virus. thank you very much, we will be back for- seriously virus. thank you very | much, we will be back for more seriously virus. thank you very i much, we will be back for more of borisjohnson's evidence later this afternoon. you can keep up—to—date on the bbc iplayer and website as well. stay with fancier for the 1pm news next with ben brown. today at one — rishi sunak defends his plans to stop illegal immigration, after the resignation of a minister who says they won't work. at a downing street news conference this morning, the prime minister promised a draft bill will block every legal challenge to putting asylum seekers on flights to rwanda also in the programme this lunchtime... a cororoner says an ofted inspection is likely to have contributed to the death of primary school head ruth perry, who took her own life borisjohnson tells the covid inquiry the way downing street parties have been portrayed is a travesty of the truth. the version of events that has entered the popular consciousness about what has supposed to have happened in downing street is a million miles from the reality. the writer and poet benjamin zephaniah has died at the age of 65 after a brain tumour. and counting the pounds and the pennies — why we're using more cash than we have done for a decade. and coming up on bbc news: four games without a win and, statistically at least, a horrible night at aston villa for champions manchester city, who manager, pep guardiola, admits are struggling.

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