service unease about the challenging approach of some of the special advisers — approach of some of the special advisers and i had to make a judgment about the particular issue. and i decided, on balance, that at a very difficult time for the country i very difficult time for the country iwouid _ very difficult time for the country i would rather have a number ten where _ i would rather have a number ten where people challenged ideas and where _ where people challenged ideas and where people challenged ideas and where people brought new ideas and where _ where people brought new ideas and where people brought new ideas and where people felt free to say things other— where people felt free to say things other tharr— where people felt free to say things other than an where people felt free to say things otherthan an numberten where people felt free to say things other than an number ten where everybody— other than an number ten where everybody tried to pretend that all was continuously well because it was not well— was continuously well because it was not well with the country and we needed — not well with the country and we needed to— not well with the country and we needed to fix it. let not well with the country and we needed to fix it.— needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, _ needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mr _ needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mrjohnson, - needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mrjohnson, if- needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mrjohnson, if your i about this, mrjohnson, if your concern that there had been a civil service unease about the challenging approach of some of your special advisers and you plainly mean mr cummings there, your response was not to support the civil service and deal with mr not to support the civil service and dealwith mr cummings, not to support the civil service and deal with mr cummings, you sidelined your cabinet secretary and kept mr cummings?— cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what _ cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what you _ cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what you did? _ cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what you did? i - isn't that what you did? i certainly... let me get back to sir mark _ certainly... let me get back to sir mark he — certainly... let me get back to sir mark. he decided he wanted to move on, mark. he decided he wanted to move on. that— mark. he decided he wanted to move on. that is— mark. he decided he wanted to move on, that is what he told me. on the issue _ on, that is what he told me. on the issue of— on, that is what he told me. on the issue of the — on, that is what he told me. on the issue of the rest of my team and the culture _ issue of the rest of my team and the culture irr— issue of the rest of my team and the culture in numberten, yes it issue of the rest of my team and the culture in number ten, yes it was occasionally argumentative, but i think— occasionally argumentative, but i think that — occasionally argumentative, but i think that was no bad thing. we needed, — think that was no bad thing. we needed, frankly, to have an atmosphere in which people felt able to say— atmosphere in which people felt able to say things that were going to be controversial at the time. mr johnson. _ controversial at the time. m' johnson, without controversial at the time. m johnson, without labouring the point, a great deal of evidence has been given to the effect that there were systemic problems at number ten and the cabinet offices. the wrong people in the room, wrong people in the wrong jobs, people talking over each other, god complex, leadership issues, misogyny, perpetualwarfare. issues, misogyny, perpetual warfare. neither issues, misogyny, perpetualwarfare. neither he where aware of all that, in which case, why did you not act? if you are not, why were you not aware? ., ., , .,, , aware? none of those things was put to me in the — aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms _ aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms that _ aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms that you - aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms that you have - to me in the terms that you have 'ust to me in the terms that you have just done, — to me in the terms that you have just done, first of all. nobody came to me _ just done, first of all. nobody came to me and _ just done, first of all. nobody came to me and said people have got god comptexes— to me and said people have got god complexes going on here. what i saw was a _ complexes going on here. what i saw was a country that needed continuous, urgent action and it needed — continuous, urgent action and it needed solution is to be found. what i needed solution is to be found. what iwahted _ needed solution is to be found. what i wanted were meetings in which people _ i wanted were meetings in which people could speak their minds without— people could speak their minds without fear of being embarrassed or being _ without fear of being embarrassed or being seen— without fear of being embarrassed or being seen to say something foolish and that's— being seen to say something foolish and that's one of the reasons, by the way, — and that's one of the reasons, by the way, why i sometimes spoke bluntly— the way, why i sometimes spoke bluntly and fairly in meetings. i wanted — bluntly and fairly in meetings. i wanted to— bluntly and fairly in meetings. i wanted to give everybody cover to do the same _ wanted to give everybody cover to do the same i_ wanted to give everybody cover to do the same. i wanted them to feel that if they— the same. i wanted them to feel that if they had _ the same. i wanted them to feel that if they had an idea then i wanted to hear it _ if they had an idea then i wanted to hear it. . , , .., hear it. can i 'ust interrupt, can ou hold hear it. can i 'ust interrupt, can you how that— hear it. can ijust interrupt, can you hold that train _ hear it. can ijust interrupt, can you hold that train of— hear it. can ijust interrupt, can you hold that train of thought, l you hold that train of thought, whatever— you hold that train of thought, whatever it _ you hold that train of thought, whatever it was. _ you hold that train of thought, whatever it was. mr _ you hold that train of thought, whatever it was. mrjohnson, i you hold that train of thought, i whatever it was. mrjohnson, one you hold that train of thought, - whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons— whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i— whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i have _ whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i have been _ whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i have been interested i the reasons i have been interested in the _ the reasons i have been interested in the culture — the reasons i have been interested in the culture of— the reasons i have been interested in the culture of number— the reasons i have been interested in the culture of number ten- the reasons i have been interested in the culture of number ten is- in the culture of number ten is whether— in the culture of number ten is whether or— in the culture of number ten is whether or not _ in the culture of number ten is whether or not had _ in the culture of number ten is whether or not had there - in the culture of number ten is whether or not had there beenl whether or not had there been different— whether or not had there been different structures _ whether or not had there been different structures in - whether or not had there been different structures in place, l whether or not had there been. different structures in place, then this kind — different structures in place, then this kind of— different structures in place, then this kind of culture _ different structures in place, then this kind of culture may— different structures in place, then this kind of culture may not - different structures in place, then this kind of culture may not havei this kind of culture may not have arisen _ this kind of culture may not have arisen ahd — this kind of culture may not have arisen and it— this kind of culture may not have arisen and it might _ this kind of culture may not have arisen and it might have - this kind of culture may not have| arisen and it might have provided you with — arisen and it might have provided you with a — arisen and it might have provided you with a better— arisen and it might have provided you with a better framework- arisen and it might have provided you with a better framework for. arisen and it might have provided i you with a better framework for and seeking _ you with a better framework for and seeking advice? _ you with a better framework for and seeking advice? i— you with a better framework for and seeking advice? i was _ you with a better framework for and seeking advice? i was looking, - seeking advice? i was looking, example. _ seeking advice? i was looking, example. we _ seeking advice? i was looking, example, we were _ seeking advice? i was looking, example, we were looking - seeking advice? i was looking, - example, we were looking initially at the _ example, we were looking initially at the ministerial— example, we were looking initially at the ministerial implementationl at the ministerial implementation groups _ at the ministerial implementation groups they— at the ministerial implementation groups. they didn't _ at the ministerial implementation groups. they didn't really - at the ministerial implementation groups. they didn't really work i at the ministerial implementation. groups. they didn't really work and then you _ groups. they didn't really work and then you got — groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid _ groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and _ groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and covid - groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and covid s- groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and covid s and| then you got covid and covid s and then you got covid and covid s and then they— then you got covid and covid s and then they did — then you got covid and covid s and then they did work. _ then you got covid and covid s and then they did work. the _ then you got covid and covid s and then they did work.— then they did work. the problem frankly was _ then they did work. the problem frankly was that _ then they did work. the problem frankly was that the _ then they did work. the problem frankly was that the system, - then they did work. the problem frankly was that the system, the j frankly was that the system, the cabinet — frankly was that the system, the cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix, _ cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix. it _ cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix. it was — cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix, it was all too diffuse. and in my view, — mix, it was all too diffuse. and in my view, things only really started to come _ my view, things only really started to come together when we had a rhythm. — to come together when we had a rhythm, morning meetings where everybody could say their piece and that would — everybody could say their piece and that would set the agenda for the day. that would set the agenda for the dav that — that would set the agenda for the day. that wasn't necessarily a decision— day. that wasn't necessarily a decision making meeting, but what i would _ decision making meeting, but what i would submit is that for future pandemics there needs to be more clarity— pandemics there needs to be more clarity about which are the debating meetings _ clarity about which are the debating meetings and discussion and which are the _ meetings and discussion and which are the decision—making meetings. what _ are the decision—making meetings. what would happen is i would be presented with a problem and then within— presented with a problem and then within the — presented with a problem and then within the space of half an hour we would _ within the space of half an hour we would have — within the space of half an hour we would have got to the solution and then we'd — would have got to the solution and then we'd have to do it all again in a separate — then we'd have to do it all again in a separate format, through the cabinet — a separate format, through the cabinet or— a separate format, through the cabinet or whatever. i think... it is a _ cabinet or whatever. i think... it is a microscopic issue by comparison of what _ is a microscopic issue by comparison of what we _ is a microscopic issue by comparison of what we have been talking about. but some _ of what we have been talking about. but some work needs to be done on those _ but some work needs to be done on those procedures so that the prime minister— those procedures so that the prime minister has, when he goes into some meetings _ minister has, when he goes into some meetings knowing these are decision taking _ meetings knowing these are decision taking meetings and is given all the evidence _ taking meetings and is given all the evidence on both sides of the argument. because that was not happening. what was happening was, we were _ happening. what was happening was, we were having a meeting and we would _ we were having a meeting and we would say, — we were having a meeting and we would say, this is the problem, the r is taking — would say, this is the problem, the r is taking off, the tier system isn't _ r is taking off, the tier system isn't working, what do we do now? and i_ isn't working, what do we do now? and i witt— isn't working, what do we do now? and i will try— isn't working, what do we do now? and i will try to come to an answer, but i _ and i will try to come to an answer, but i felt _ and i will try to come to an answer, but i felt the — and i will try to come to an answer, but i felt the structures, we had the difference between covid o and covid _ the difference between covid o and covid si _ the difference between covid o and covid s, but to be absolutely frank, i covid s, but to be absolutely frank, i don't _ covid s, but to be absolutely frank, idon't think— covid s, but to be absolutely frank, i don't think if i was sitting in a covid _ i don't think if i was sitting in a covid 0 — idon't think if i was sitting in a covid 0 or— i don't think if i was sitting in a covid 0 or a _ i don't think if i was sitting in a covid o or a covid si i don't think if i was sitting in a covid o or a covid s i couldn't tell you at— covid o or a covid s i couldn't tell you at any— covid o or a covid s i couldn't tell you at any given moment whether it was a _ you at any given moment whether it was a covid — you at any given moment whether it was a covid o or covid s. i wasjust sitting _ was a covid o or covid s. i wasjust sitting in— was a covid o or covid s. i wasjust sitting in meeting after meeting trying _ sitting in meeting after meeting trying to— sitting in meeting after meeting trying to deal with the problem. that was— trying to deal with the problem. that was the most effective way to do it, _ that was the most effective way to do it. you — that was the most effective way to do it, you needed to be sitting permanently on the bridge trying to deal with— permanently on the bridge trying to deal with it all. and back to the culture, — deal with it all. and back to the culture, i— deal with it all. and back to the culture, i had to make a decision about — culture, i had to make a decision about i— culture, i had to make a decision about... i knew some people were difficult _ about... i knew some people were difficult i— about... i knew some people were difficult. i didn't know how difficult _ difficult. i didn't know how difficult they were, clearly. but i thought — difficult they were, clearly. but i thought it — difficult they were, clearly. but i thought it was better on the hole for the _ thought it was better on the hole for the country to have a disputatious culture in number ten than one _ disputatious culture in number ten than one that was quietly acquiescent to whatever i other scientists— acquiescent to whatever i other scientists said. mr acquiescent to whatever i other scientists said.— acquiescent to whatever i other scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp _ scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp to — scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp to mr _ scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp to mr cummings, - scientists said. mrjohnson, in a - whatsapp to mr cummings, described him, you and your administration in having indulged in an orgy of narcissism. that is not disputatious is it? i narcissism. that is not disputatious is it? ~' , , . ., is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp _ is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was _ is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent _ is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent at - is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent at the - is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent at the end. | is it? i think, with respect, that - whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when _ whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when i _ whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when i think— whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when i think some of the things that were not— when i think some of the things that were not obvious to me had become more _ were not obvious to me had become more obvious. in were not obvious to me had become more obvious— more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer. the _ more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, the whatsapp _ more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, the whatsapp from - more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, the whatsapp from mr - summer, the whatsapp from mr cummings to you, i think it is a screenshot from mr cummings' witness statement. if he could scroll to the top of the page. if hancock comes to meetings in number ten, pleasejust ignore. we need to have meetings without him. that is mr cummings. all too recognisable, we need to rebuild the government from top to bottom, we need to take over the cabinet office and run the whole thing. cabinet office and run the whole thin. , , ., , thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was — thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was my _ thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was my question. - thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was my question. the | thing. this is me on the left, is i it? that was my question. the top ri . ht is it? that was my question. the top right is obviously _ it? that was my question. the top right is obviously mr _ it? that was my question. the top right is obviously mr cummings i right is obviously mr cummings because he is asking you to ignore mr hancock's text messages. this is... just mr hancock's text messages. this is- -- just wait _ mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were _ mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were moment. - mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were moment. is i mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were moment. is it | is... just wait were moment. is it ou is... just wait were moment. is it you saying _ is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you — is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need _ is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need to _ is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need to take - is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need to take over| is... just wait were moment. is it. you saying you need to take over the cabinet office and run the government is to mark this is a reference, is this in may? it is, the 13th of may.— reference, is this i