had it been, i am that being brought to my attention. had it been, lam highly that being brought to my attention. had it been, i am highly confident that i would have said that we should put in place such a provision because the impact on the overall virus would have been relatively low because, although the numbers are far too big, they are as part of the population relatively low. and in the same way that we realise that our initial regulations, in terms of how they impacted funerals, for example, were much firmer in their interpretation on the ground than we had intended so we therefore changed them, that is the sort of thing that i certainly would have been open to considering and i am pretty sure i would have been in favour of it had it been brought to my attention, but i haven't seen any paperwork on this question. i haven't seen any paperwork on this cuestion. , ., _, , , question. open to considering it is helful, question. open to considering it is helpful. thank— question. open to considering it is helpful, thank you. _ question. open to considering it is helpful, thank you. let _ question. open to considering it is helpful, thank you. let me - question. open to considering it is helpful, thank you. let me move i question. open to considering it is i helpful, thank you. let me move on to my— helpful, thank you. let me move on to my next — helpful, thank you. let me move on to my next topic— helpful, thank you. let me move on to my next topic and _ helpful, thank you. let me move on to my next topic and that _ helpful, thank you. let me move on to my next topic and that is - helpful, thank you. let me move on to my next topic and that is about . to my next topic and that is about testing _ to my next topic and that is about testing key— to my next topic and that is about testing key workers and _ to my next topic and that is about testing key workers and you - to my next topic and that is about testing key workers and you talk. testing key workers and you talk about _ testing key workers and you talk about that — testing key workers and you talk about that in _ testing key workers and you talk about that in your— testing key workers and you talk about that in your statement - testing key workers and you talk| about that in your statement and setting _ about that in your statement and setting out — about that in your statement and setting out the _ about that in your statement and setting out the priority _ about that in your statement and setting out the priority scheme l about that in your statement and i setting out the priority scheme for key workers — setting out the priority scheme for key workers. did _ setting out the priority scheme for key workers. did you _ setting out the priority scheme for key workers. did you include, - setting out the priority scheme for key workers. did you include, as. setting out the priority scheme for . key workers. did you include, as key workers. _ key workers. did you include, as key workers, workers _ key workers. did you include, as key workers, workers in _ key workers. did you include, as key workers, workers in the _ key workers. did you include, as key workers, workers in the domestic. workers, workers in the domestic abuse _ workers, workers in the domestic abuse sector, _ workers, workers in the domestic abuse sector, refuge _ workers, workers in the domestic abuse sector, refuge workers - workers, workers in the domesticj abuse sector, refuge workers and workers, workers in the domestic. abuse sector, refuge workers and so forth? _ abuse sector, refuge workers and so forth? lit— abuse sector, refuge workers and so forth? . , ., . abuse sector, refuge workers and so forth? ., ., . , ., forth? it was not a department of health decision _ forth? it was not a department of health decision on _ forth? it was not a department of health decision on what _ forth? it was not a department of health decision on what was - forth? it was not a department of health decision on what was a - forth? it was not a department of| health decision on what was a key worker so i took the list of key workers as red. i can't off the top of my head remember, although who came up with the list, i am pretty sure it had cross government to sign off because of the impact from every department and policy with respect to domestic abuse is a home office matter, i think... to domestic abuse is a home office matter, ithink...— matter, ithink... principally, it is cross government _ matter, ithink... principally, it is cross government but - matter, ithink... principally, it- is cross government but principally. principally. — is cross government but principally. principally, exactly. _ is cross government but principally. principally, exactly. so, _ is cross government but principally. principally, exactly. so, it- is cross government but principally. principally, exactly. so, it would. principally, exactly. so, it would have been for the home office, i'm sorry to give your bureaucratic answer, but it would have been for the home office to put that forward. if you like, i as the health secretary put forward key worker proposals from the areas i was responsible for, health and social care workers primarily, but also for instance those working on the vaccine and then i was the recipient of the cross government list. if i tell ou of the cross government list. if i tell you that _ of the cross government list. if i tell you that pretty patel's evidence _ tell you that pretty patel's evidence is _ tell you that pretty patel's evidence is that _ tell you that pretty patel's evidence is that she - tell you that pretty patel's| evidence is that she raised tell you that pretty patel's - evidence is that she raised the issues — evidence is that she raised the issues of— evidence is that she raised the issues of domestic— evidence is that she raised the issues of domestic abuse - evidence is that she raised the i issues of domestic abuse workers falling _ issues of domestic abuse workers falling in — issues of domestic abuse workers falling in the _ issues of domestic abuse workers falling in the key _ issues of domestic abuse workers falling in the key workers - issues of domestic abuse workers falling in the key workers at - issues of domestic abuse workers. falling in the key workers at cobra, does _ falling in the key workers at cobra, does that— falling in the key workers at cobra, does that trigger— falling in the key workers at cobra, does that trigger your— falling in the key workers at cobra, does that trigger your memory? itl does that trigger your memory? doesn't but i wouldn't be does that trigger your memory?- doesn't but i wouldn't be surprised. the last questions about what you knew _ the last questions about what you knew going — the last questions about what you knew going into _ the last questions about what you knew going into the _ the last questions about what you knew going into the autumn - the last questions about what you knew going into the autumn of - the last questions about what you i knew going into the autumn of 2020 when _ knew going into the autumn of 2020 when you _ knew going into the autumn of 2020 when you are — knew going into the autumn of 2020 when you are making _ knew going into the autumn of 2020 when you are making decisions - knew going into the autumn of 2020 l when you are making decisions around tears and _ when you are making decisions around tears and the — when you are making decisions around tears and the second _ when you are making decisions around tears and the second and _ when you are making decisions around tears and the second and the - when you are making decisions around tears and the second and the third - tears and the second and the third national— tears and the second and the third national lockdown. _ tears and the second and the third national lockdown. by— tears and the second and the third national lockdown. by the - tears and the second and the third | national lockdown. by the summer tears and the second and the third i national lockdown. by the summer of 2020. _ national lockdown. by the summer of 2020, it— national lockdown. by the summer of 2020, it was— national lockdown. by the summer of 2020, it was known _ national lockdown. by the summer of 2020, it was known to _ national lockdown. by the summer of 2020, it was known to ministers - national lockdown. by the summer of 2020, it was known to ministers that| 2020, it was known to ministers that there _ 2020, it was known to ministers that there had _ 2020, it was known to ministers that there had been— 2020, it was known to ministers that there had been an _ 2020, it was known to ministers that there had been an increase _ 2020, it was known to ministers that there had been an increase in- there had been an increase in domestic— there had been an increase in domestic abuse _ there had been an increase in domestic abuse as _ there had been an increase in domestic abuse as a - there had been an increase in domestic abuse as a result i there had been an increase in domestic abuse as a result ofj domestic abuse as a result of lockdown, _ domestic abuse as a result of lockdown, wasn't— domestic abuse as a result of lockdown, wasn't it? - domestic abuse as a result of lockdown, wasn't it?- domestic abuse as a result of| lockdown, wasn't it? yes. and domestic abuse as a result of- lockdown, wasn't it? yes. and you are also aware _ lockdown, wasn't it? yes. and you are also aware that _ lockdown, wasn't it? and you are also aware that by lockdown, wasn't it?“ and you are also aware that byjune - lockdown, wasn't it?“ and you are also aware that byjune in- lockdown, wasn't it?“ and you are also aware that byjune in your witness _ are also aware that byjune in your witness statement _ are also aware that byjune in your witness statement that _ are also aware that byjune in your witness statement that there - are also aware that byjune in your witness statement that there is i witness statement that there is possibility— witness statement that there is possibility of _ witness statement that there is possibility of a _ witness statement that there is possibility of a second - witness statement that there is possibility of a second wave - witness statement that there is possibility of a second wave in. possibility of a second wave in winter — possibility of a second wave in winter and _ possibility of a second wave in winter and you _ possibility of a second wave in winter and you are _ possibility of a second wave in winter and you are working. possibility of a second wave in winter and you are working onj winter and you are working on preparations— winter and you are working on preparations for— winter and you are working on preparations for that. - winter and you are working on preparations for that.- winter and you are working on preparations for that. yes. soj winter and you are working on- preparations for that. yes. so when ou are preparations for that. yes. so when you are then. _ preparations for that. yes. so when you are then. as — preparations for that. so when you are then, as you told preparations for that.“ so when you are then, as you told us- preparations for that.“ so when you are then, as you told us this . you are then, as you told us this morning. — you are then, as you told us this morning, advocating _ you are then, as you told us this morning, advocating for- you are then, as you told us this morning, advocating for the - you are then, as you told us this morning, advocating for the tier| morning, advocating for the tier system — morning, advocating for the tier system in — morning, advocating for the tier system in late _ morning, advocating for the tier system in late september, - morning, advocating for the tier| system in late september, early october. — system in late september, early october. did— system in late september, early october, did you _ system in late september, early october, did you have _ system in late september, early october, did you have in- system in late september, early october, did you have in mind . october, did you have in mind repercussions _ october, did you have in mind repercussions and _ october, did you have in mind repercussions and the - october, did you have in mind . repercussions and the possibility october, did you have in mind - repercussions and the possibility of an additional— repercussions and the possibility of an additional increase _ repercussions and the possibility of an additional increase in _ repercussions and the possibility of an additional increase in domestic. an additional increase in domestic abuse? _ an additional increase in domestic abuse? , ., an additional increase in domestic abuse? , . ., abuse? yes. i had in mind that. i had in mind _ abuse? yes. i had in mind that. i had in mind the _ abuse? yes. i had in mind that. i had in mind the impact _ abuse? yes. i had in mind that. i had in mind the impact on - abuse? yes. i had in mind that. i i had in mind the impact on children. i had in mind the impact, the mental health impact on the population. i had in mind the impact on other health conditions. i had in mind the knock—on economic consequences of damage to the economy on people's health. we had all of these known costs, known damage from lockdown in mind. of course, i had to weigh that against the, by then, known and clear damage and cost and loss of life from the virus and, to me, as i described earlier, the balance of those two horrible outcomes was clearly that we did need to take action to lockdown and so, you know, you can see from the paperwork that even ahead of the march lockdown, we knew that there would be consequences that were damaging of these knockdowns. but this virus was killing a lot of people and going to killing a lot of people and going to kill more and you have to weigh these things together and that's what i did. find these things together and that's what i did. . i. ., these things together and that's whatidid. . ., what i did. and you would say the same weighing — what i did. and you would say the same weighing exercise _ what i did. and you would say the | same weighing exercise happened what i did. and you would say the - same weighing exercise happened for the second _ same weighing exercise happened for the second national— same weighing exercise happened for the second national lockdown - same weighing exercise happened for the second national lockdown in - the second national lockdown in november— the second national lockdown in novemberand _ the second national lockdown in novemberand the _ the second national lockdown in november and the third - the second national lockdown in november and the third one - the second national lockdown in november and the third one in. november and the third one in january? — november and the third one in janua ? ~ , ,., , november and the third one in janua ? ~ , . january? absolutely and we understood _ january? absolutely and we understood more _ january? absolutely and we understood more of - january? absolutely and we understood more of the - january? absolutely and we - understood more of the negative consequences by then because we had seen them. nobody wanted these knockdowns but the consequences if we hadn't had them would have been far, far worse. find we hadn't had them would have been far. far worse-— far, far worse. and this is my very last question- _ far, far worse. and this is my very last question. since _ far, far worse. and this is my very last question. since you _ far, far worse. and this is my very last question. since you did - far, far worse. and this is my very last question. since you did take i far, far worse. and this is my very| last question. since you did take in mind _ last question. since you did take in mind all— last question. since you did take in mind all of— last question. since you did take in mind all of those _ last question. since you did take in mind all of those weighty- mind all of those weighty responsibilities, - mind all of those weighty responsibilities, turning i mind all of those weighty- responsibilities, turning back again to domestic— responsibilities, turning back again to domestic abuse, _ responsibilities, turning back again to domestic abuse, was _ responsibilities, turning back again to domestic abuse, was there - to domestic abuse, was there anything _ to domestic abuse, was there anything that _ to domestic abuse, was there anything that you _ to domestic abuse, was there anything that you did - to domestic abuse, was there i anything that you did specifically about— anything that you did specifically about that — anything that you did specifically about that for— anything that you did specifically about that for the _ anything that you did specifically about that for the decisions - anything that you did specifically about that for the decisions that| about that for the decisions that you made — about that for the decisions that you made in— about that for the decisions that you made in the _ about that for the decisions that you made in the autumn - about that for the decisions that you made in the autumn and - about that for the decisions that| you made in the autumn and the winter? — you made in the autumn and the winter? i— you made in the autumn and the winter? ., . . ,, . . you made in the autumn and the winter? ., . .~ . . ., winter? i would have taken advice on that and i would _ winter? i would have taken advice on that and i would have _ winter? i would have taken advice on that and i would have taken - winter? i would have taken advice on that and i would have taken that - that and i would have taken that advice very seriously. without going back through the paperwork, i don't have a direct answer to the question, i can't remember specifically but i know that it was something that we considered. thank ou mr something that we considered. thank you mr hancock. _ something that we considered. thank you mr hancock, my _ something that we considered. thank you mr hancock, my lady. _ something that we considered. thank you mr hancock, my lady. mr- something that we considered. thank you mr hancock, my lady. mrjacobsl you mr hancock, my lady. mrjacobs is also behind _ you mr hancock, my lady. mrjacobs is also behind you _ you mr hancock, my lady. mrjacobs is also behind you mr _ you mr hancock, my lady. mrjacobs is also behind you mr hancock, - you mr hancock, my lady. mrjacobs| is also behind you mr hancock, don't mind, he used to peoples backs as well. , ., , . , mind, he used to peoples backs as well. , ., . u, well. first topic is financial su- ort well. first topic is financial support for _ well. first topic is financial support for self _ well. first topic is financial support for self isolation. l well. first topic is financial i support for self isolation. an well. first topic is financial - support for self isolation. an early step that — support for self isolation. an early step that was taken by the government on this issue in march 2020 _ government on this issue in march 2020 was — government on this issue in march 2020 was making sick pay available from day _ 2020 was making sick pay available from day one, rather than day three. ifyou _ from day one, rather than day three. ifyou recall? — from day one, rather than day three. if you recall? i do. you from day one, rather than day three. if you recall? i do.— if you recall? i do. you sent a whatsapp _ if you recall? i do. you sent a whatsapp message _ if you recall? i do. you sent a whatsapp message saying i if you recall? i do. you sent a. whatsapp message saying that if you recall? i do. you sent a - whatsapp message saying that you were supportive of the fix, though it only— were supportive of the fix, though it only solves half the problem. what _ it only solves half the problem. what was — it only solves half the problem. what was the other half of the problem — what was the other half of the problem that wasn't being solved? sick pay— problem that wasn't being solved? sick pay in — problem that wasn't being solved? sick pay in this country is far, far too low. it is far lower than the european average. it encourages people to go to work when they should be getting better. having low sick pay encourages the spread of communicable diseases. it discourages having higher sick pay, in a positive, having higher sick pay would encourage employers to do more to look after the health of their employees stop before the pandemic, i had been on an internal government campaign to significantly increase sick pay. i would double it if i had a magic wand. moving from three days to one day payment was a small step which i obviously was necessary for the pandemic but i enthusiastically embraced. but i would have gone far, far higher. we needed isolation payments from the start, we got them in the end by september and i pay tribute to the trade union congress for their campaigning on this issue which helped me get it over the line. but! helped me get it over the line. and on that point. _ helped me get it over the line. and on that point, mr hancock, you miracle — on that point, mr hancock, you miracle appearing on question time on the _ miracle appearing on question time on the 19th — miracle appearing on question time on the 19th of march 2020 and accepting in response to a question that you _ accepting in response to a question that you couldn't survive on the £94 a week— that you couldn't survive on the £94 a week on— that you couldn't survive on the £94 a week on statutory sick pay.- a week on statutory sick pay. yeah, it should be — a week on statutory sick pay. yeah, it should be higher. _ a week on statutory sick pay. yeah, it should be higher. frances- a week on statutory sick pay. yeah, | it should be higher. frances o'grady is wonderful and gave great service to the country in the role that she was in and she made an argument that i very strongly believed in.— i very strongly believed in. sorry, mr hancock. _ i very strongly believed in. sorry, mr hancock. l— i very strongly believed in. sorry, mr hancock, i do _ i very strongly believed in. sorry, mr hancock, i do have _ i very strongly believed in. sorry, mr hancock, i do have limited - i very strongly believed in. sorry, i mr hancock, i do have limited time. the tuc_ mr hancock, i do have limited time. the tuc may— mr hancock, i do have limited time. the tuc may not thank me for interrupting you in praising frances o'grady— interrupting you in praising frances o'grady but i have to move on. in fairness _ o'grady but i have to move on. in fairness to— o'grady but i have to move on. in fairness to you, in response to questions _ fairness to you, in response to questions from mr keith yesterday about— questions from mr keith yesterday about eat — questions from mr keith yesterday about eat out to help out, i think it was— about eat out to help out, i think it was your— about eat out to help out, i think it was your evidence that at the time, _ it was your evidence that at the time, you — it was your evidence that at the time, you are campaigning internally to get— time, you are campaigning internally to get funding so that those who test positive would isolate, which you eventually got in place in september. you eventually got in place in september-— you eventually got in place in september. you eventually got in place in setember. , , ., ., ., september. yes, dido harding and i had a very strong — september. yes, dido harding and i had a very strong campaign - september. yes, dido harding and i had a very strong campaign on - september. yes, dido harding and i had a very strong campaign on that. and he needed to be the target of that strong campaign, where was the resistance? _ that strong campaign, where was the resistance? ~ ., resistance? well, we needed to get cross government _ resistance? well, we needed to get cross government agreement - resistance? well, we needed to get cross government agreement and i resistance? well, we needed to get i cross government agreement and the government is a large beast so we had all sorts of people we needed to get on for that. had all sorts of people we needed to get on for that-— get on for that. clearly you need cross government _ get on for that. clearly you need cross government agreement. get on for that. clearly you need | cross government agreement but get on for that. clearly you need - cross government agreement but where was the _ cross government agreement but where was the resistance, straightforwardly? | was the resistance, straightforwardly? was the resistance, straiuhtforwardl ? �* , straightforwardly? i can't remember, ou will straightforwardly? i can't remember, you will have — straightforwardly? i can't remember, you will have to _ straightforwardly? i can't remember, you will have to look— straightforwardly? i can't remember, you will have to look in _ straightforwardly? i can't remember, you will have to look in the _ you will have to look in the paperwork. you need number 10 onside, cabinet office onside and treasury onside for certain things like that you would also need the dwp onside because, although this was a pandemic and therefore i was driving it, it would typically be something close to their hearts as well. but i can't remember precisely what the dynamics of that debate well. , ., ., . what the dynamics of that debate well. , ., .. , , ,., well. the test and trace support -a ment well. the test and trace support payment scheme _ well. the test and trace support payment scheme came - well. the test and trace support payment scheme came in - well. the test and trace support payment scheme came in on - well. the test and trace support| payment scheme came in on the well. the test and trace support - payment scheme came in on the 28th of september. i'm going to ask you about— of september. i'm going to ask you about notes made by sir patrick balance — about notes made by sir patrick balance of a meeting on the 25th of september, the friday before that came _ september, the friday before that came in _ september, the friday before that came in it — september, the friday before that came in. it is page 621 of the inquiry— came in. it is page 621 of the inquiry schedule of his notes. we can see, mr hancock, it says cases— we can see, mr hancock, it says cases admissions and deaths all up. pm obsessed with testing again, our people _ pm obsessed with testing again, our people actually doing the self isolation? presumably that must be a reference to the _ presumably that must be a reference to the test— presumably that must be a reference to the test interest payment support scheme _ i feel like giving out a ifeel like giving out a big i feel like giving out a big sigh now. , , , i feel like giving out a big sigh now. _, , now. firstly, but perhaps the question--- _ now. firstly, but perhaps the question... do _ now. firstly, but perhaps the question... do you _ now. firstly, but perhaps the question... do you agree - now. firstly, but perhaps the| question... do you agree with now. firstly, but perhaps the - question... do you agree with that assessment— question... do you agree with that assessment of the pm? and question. .. do you agree with that assessment of the pm?— question... do you agree with that assessment of the pm? and is it... no, i assessment of the pm? and is it... no, i didn't. — assessment of the pm? and is it... no, i didn't. that — assessment of the pm? and is it... no, | didn't, that isn't _ assessment of the pm? and is it... no, i didn't, that isn't how- assessment of the pm? and is it... no, i didn't, that isn't how i - assessment of the pm? and is it... no, i didn't, that isn't how i felt. no, i didn't, that isn't how i felt about it. ., , ., ., about it. how did you feel about it? i hadn't been _ about it. how did you feel about it? i hadn't been pretending _ about it. how did you feel about it? i hadn't been pretending to - about it. how did you feel about it? | i hadn't been pretending to anybody. | about it. how did you feel about it? | i hadn't been pretending to anybody. i hadn't been pretending to anybody. i hadn't been pretending to anybody. i had been making the argument as strongly as i code that we needed action such as we were taken that following monday.— action such as we were taken that following monday. hence your big siuh. do following monday. hence your big sigh- do you _ following monday. hence your big sigh. do you think, _ following monday. hence your big sigh. do you think, though, - following monday. hence your big sigh. do you think, though, that l following monday. hence your big | sigh. do you think, though, that it is a pretty— sigh. do you think, though, that it is a pretty appalling state of affairs — is a pretty appalling state of affairs that six months after this measure — affairs that six months after this measure of self isolation becomes a key npi, _ measure of self isolation becomes a key npi, the pm's assessment is we have been— key npi, the pm's assessment is we have been pretending it has been working _ have been pretending it has been working whereas secretly we know it hasn't _ working whereas secretly we know it hasn't been? i working whereas secretly we know it hasn't been?— hasn't been? i think that the lesson for the future _ hasn't been? i think that the lesson for the future is _ hasn't been? i think that the lesson for the future is that _ hasn't been? i think that the lesson for the future is that self _ for the future is that self isolation payments rapidly delivered are a necessity when self isolation or mandatory isolation is required. and my lesson, my further lesson i would take for the future from this whole debate in government is that we should have higher statutory sick pay, but i appreciate that is out of the terms of reference of the inquiry. the terms of reference of the in . ui . . the terms of reference of the inuui . ., , ,., , the terms of reference of the inuui . ., , inquiry. the learning lessons point is clearly important. _ inquiry. the learning lessons point is clearly important. my _ inquiry. the learning lessons point is clearly important. my question i is clearly important. my question straightforwardly was do you agree with the _ straightforwardly was do you agree with the characterisation that it's a pretty— with the characterisation that it's a pretty appalling state of affairs to be _ a pretty appalling state of affairs to be in — a pretty appalling state of affairs to be in at that stage in the pandemic? | to be in at that stage in the pandemic?— to be in at that stage in the andemic? ,, . , ., pandemic? i think that is unfair. there were _ pandemic? i think that is unfair. there were enormous _ pandemic? i think that is unfair. there were enormous numbersl pandemic? i think that is unfair. l there were enormous numbers of pressures and these decisions and the precious people took rougher rational reasons as far as i could see on this. i am very glad we got over the line.— over the line. next topic is movement _ over the line. next topic is movement of _ over the line. next topic is movement of staff - over the line. next topic is | movement of staff between over the line. next topic is - movement of staff between care homes — movement of staff between care homes. could we have on the screen your third _ homes. could we have on the screen your third statement, please? homes. could we have on the screen yourthird statement, please? page eight _ yourthird statement, please? page eight in— yourthird statement, please? page eight. in particular, paragraph 33. you say. — eight. in particular, paragraph 33. you say, mr— eight. in particular, paragraph 33. you say, mr hancock... getting into care homes was more important. mr getting into care homes was more imortant. ~ ., . ,, getting into care homes was more imortant. ~ ., , ., important. mr hancock, is that misleading _ important. mr hancock, is that misleading in _ important. mr hancock, is that misleading in the _ important. mr hancock, is that misleading in the sense - important. mr hancock, is that misleading in the sense that i important. mr hancock, is that. misleading in the sense that while it may— misleading in the sense that while it may have been true of your position— it may have been true of your position later in the pandemic, in the first— position later in the pandemic, in the first few months of the pandemic, it wasn't your view. when i wrote this. — pandemic, it wasn't your view. when i wrote this. i _ pandemic, it wasn't your view. when i wrote this, i hadn't _ pandemic, it wasn't your view. when i wrote this, i hadn't seen _ pandemic, it wasn't your view. when i wrote this, i hadn't seen the - i wrote this, i hadn't seen the paperwork from february, march, which showed that some had been raising this issue and at that time, the concern around, as it says here, staff being essential for the sector, was the primary concern because the vector of transmission point hadn't been proven and so my position on this is now more nuanced because i have seen further paperwork on this matter. you say, mr hancock. _ paperwork on this matter. you say, mr hancock, more _ paperwork on this matter. you say, mr hancock, more nuanced. - paperwork on this matter. you say, mr hancock, more nuanced. it- paperwork on this matter. you say, mr hancock, more nuanced. it is. mr hancock, more nuanced. it is actually— mr hancock, more nuanced. it is actually the _ mr hancock, more nuanced. it is actually the reverse of the actual position — actually the reverse of the actual position in— actually the reverse of the actual position in the early months of the pandemic, — position in the early months of the pandemic, isn't it? no, position in the early months of the pandemic, isn't it?— pandemic, isn't it? no, the critical oint is pandemic, isn't it? no, the critical point is this... _ pandemic, isn't it? no, the critical point is this... from _ pandemic, isn't it? no, the critical point is this... from the _ pandemic, isn't it? no, the critical point is this... from the moment l pandemic, isn't it? no, the critical| point is this... from the moment it became clear that staff movement was a vector of transmission, early on we did not know that. it all tied up with the asymptomatic transmission debate and essentially, when it became clear from early april that asymptomatic transmission was a serious problem, as opposed to being a suspected problem which was the position earlier, then that has an obvious and immediate consequence in terms of staff movement being a vector of transmission. so it is all about the confidence with which you hold the different likelihoods. it comes back to the massive uncertainty early on. if it comes back to the massive uncertainty early on.- comes back to the massive uncertainty early on. if it is known that a workforce _ uncertainty early on. if it is known that a workforce is _ uncertainty early on. if it is known that a workforce is characterised l uncertainty early on. if it is known. that a workforce is characterised by low income — that a workforce is characterised by low income and insecure work and that there — low income and insecure work and that there is a large movement between — that there is a large movement between care homes, is it not a rather— between care homes, is it not a rather straightforward point that that is— rather straightforward point that that is going to be a risk for transmission? no that is going to be a risk for transmission?— that is going to be a risk for transmission? ., , , , ., transmission? no because if you think that transmission - transmission? no because if you think that transmission only - transmission? no because if you - think that transmission only becomes from some somatic people, which was the formal scientific advice to me “p the formal scientific advice to me up until april, as we discussed yesterday, then that it does not hold so long as people who feel ill, symptomatic people, don't go to work. so that is the distinction. if i may expand on that a little bit, the point is that limiting staff movement has a known direct negative impact and as we have seen, for instance, from spain, could have very serious negative consequences. we didn't know, with certainty, the vector of transmission, so we had a known negative and an unknown negative on the other side and i was trying to balance these two things. but what i do accept is that my position on this is more nuanced than set out in paragraph 33 because, since i wrote that, i have seen more documentation. i’m because, since i wrote that, i have seen more documentation. i'm sorry, mr hancock. — seen more documentation. i'm sorry, mr hancock, these _ seen more documentation. i'm sorry, mr hancock, these are _ seen more documentation. i'm sorry, mr hancock, these are all _ seen more documentation. i'm sorry, mr hancock, these are all issues - seen more documentation. i'm sorry, mr hancock, these are all issues you | mr hancock, these are all issues you are aware _ mr hancock, these are all issues you are aware of— mr hancock, these are all issues you are aware of at the time. you are in the meeting — are aware of at the time. you are in the meeting rooms discussing these issues, _ the meeting rooms discussing these issues, these aren't matters you have _ issues, these aren't matters you have learnt — issues, these aren't matters you have learnt about since this inquiry? _ have learnt about since this inquiry? i _ have learnt about since this intui ? ., , , ., , inquiry? i wrote this three years after all of _ inquiry? i wrote this three years after all of that _ inquiry? i wrote this three years after all of that and _ inquiry? i wrote this three years after all of that and so - inquiry? i wrote this three years after all of that and so actually i after all of that and so actually looking at the paperwork has been a really important part of getting to the bottom of things.— really important part of getting to the bottom of things. before i move onto my final— the bottom of things. before i move onto my final issue, _ the bottom of things. before i move onto my final issue, focusing - the bottom of things. before i move onto my final issue, focusing on - the bottom of things. before i move onto my final issue, focusing on the| onto my final issue, focusing on the action— onto my final issue, focusing on the action taken— onto my final issue, focusing on the action taken following april when you say— action taken following april when you say it — action taken following april when you say it became clear it was a significant — you say it became clear it was a significant issue, could we have page _ significant issue, could we have page 61— significant issue, could we have page 61of— significant issue, could we have page 61 of the patrick balance schedule. sir patrick balance ——. just to— schedule. sir patrick balance ——. just to orientate ourselves, mr hancock, — just to orientate ourselves, mr hancock, it was the 15th of may that your department issued guidance on limiting _ your department issued guidance on limiting staff movement and then 11 days later— limiting staff movement and then 11 days later on the 21st of may. care homes _ days later on the 21st of may. care homes meeting, pm is now putting real pressure on them to sort things out but _ real pressure on them to sort things out but still — real pressure on them to sort things out but still they won't stop people working _ out but still they won't stop people working across more than one home. this is— working across more than one home. this is a _ working across more than one home. this is a big — working across more than one home. this is a big issue everywhere and we raised — this is a big issue everywhere and we raised in — this is a big issue everywhere and we raised in february. mr hancock, it is right, — we raised in february. mr hancock, it is right, isn't it, that even after— it is right, isn't it, that even after what _ it is right, isn't it, that even after what you say you learnt in april. _ after what you say you learnt in april, there were still others including the pm trying to push your department to go further and you weren't— department to go further and you weren't doing so? the department to go further and you weren't doing so?— department to go further and you weren't doing so? the situation was this- until we _ weren't doing so? the situation was this- untilwe had _ weren't doing so? the situation was this- until we had clear _ weren't doing so? the situation was this- until we had clear advice - weren't doing so? the situation was this- until we had clear advice on i this— until we had clear advice on asymptomatic transmission following the cdc publication on april the 3rd, the advice was that, as i said, if you were symptomatic and therefore didn't go to work if you were symptomatic, then that was essentially enough to address the problem given the known negatives of restricting the workforce. once that advice changed because of the scientific advice being updated, remember, i commissioned scientific advice on asymptomatic transmission on the 11th of march and it had taken several weeks for that to come to fruition finally in terms of asymptomatic testing on the 14th of april, in that case. whilst that work was going on, the initial position was that stopping people with symptoms from going to work was enough. i am answering your last question. we then put in place a strong guidance against working in more than one care home, that had a result of a 90% reduction in people working in more than one care home. i then wanted, to this point, legally ban people from working in more than one care home and the paperwork shows i pushed and pushed that all through the autumn. we got within days of announcing at a number of times. it was variously blocked and eventually i dropped that proposal after it was finally blocked at the start of january 2021 and we brought in the third lockdown. so this was a point of great frustration to me, i hope that is a full explanation of the trajectory of this particular policy. trajectory of this particular oli . g , trajectory of this particular oli ., , ., trajectory of this particular oli _�* , ., ., policy. just to remind you of the question. _ policy. just to remind you of the question. is _ policy. just to remind you of the question, is it _ policy. just to remind you of the question, is it right _ policy. just to remind you of the question, is it right factually - policy. just to remind you of the | question, is it right factually that even _ question, is it right factually that even after— question, is it right factually that even after april, pressure was being put on _ even after april, pressure was being put on you. — even after april, pressure was being put on you, including by the pm, to id put on you, including by the pm, to go further— put on you, including by the pm, to go further than the discretionary guidance? that never actually happened, did it? | guidance? that never actually happened, did it?— guidance? that never actually happened, did it? i continued to ush for happened, did it? i continued to push for full _ happened, did it? i continued to push for full legal _ happened, did it? i continued to push for full legal restrictions i happened, did it? i continued to| push for full legal restrictions on working in more than one care home and that was, i was not allowed to announce that. i couldn't get a cross government agreement. i’m cross government agreement. i'm ttoin to cross government agreement. i'm going to try and deal with the final topic in— going to try and deal with the final topic in one minute. decision—making in education — topic in one minute. decision—making in education. august six, you describe _ in education. august six, you describe attending a meeting where plans are _ describe attending a meeting where plans are reopening schools in september are discussed as are various— september are discussed as are various contingency plans given the precarious — various contingency plans given the precarious r rate at that time. the documents — precarious r rate at that time. the documents include the importance of informing _ documents include the importance of informing secondary schools they may need to _ informing secondary schools they may need to rotate and things of that nature — need to rotate and things of that nature sir— need to rotate and things of that nature. sir patrick, in his note of that— nature. sir patrick, in his note of that meeting, describes the pm as saying. _ that meeting, describes the pm as saying, don't want to hear about b and c_ saying, don't want to hear about b and c for— saying, don't want to hear about b and cforfailure, saying, don't want to hear about b and c for failure, ijust want people _ and c for failure, ijust want people is— and c for failure, ijust want people is back at school and we are no longer— people is back at school and we are no longer taking this covid excuse stuff- _ no longer taking this covid excuse stuff- get — no longer taking this covid excuse stuff— get back to school. two questions. _ stuff— get back to school. two questions, do you recall the pm responding to the scenarios and contingencies in that way? and second, — contingencies in that way? and second, did that approach of having a plan _ second, did that approach of having a plan a, _ second, did that approach of having a plan a, not having a plan b or c, ultimately— a plan a, not having a plan b or c, ultimately sow the seeds for the chaos— ultimately sow the seeds for the chaos that was to follow in respect of schools — chaos that was to follow in respect of schools in subsequent months? i don't of schools in subsequent months? don't recall of schools in subsequent months? i don't recall the prime minister saying that. the then prime minister. with respect to schools, we did end up putting in place other policies that you could describe as a plan b, including testing. but ultimately, as i said earlier, we had to pull all the levers and close schools in january. had to pull all the levers and close schools injanuary. that had to pull all the levers and close schools in january.— schools in january. that is factually _ schools in january. that is factually what _ schools in january. that is factually what happened, | schools in january. that is i factually what happened, but schools in january. that is - factually what happened, but was there _ factually what happened, but was there a _ factually what happened, but was there a problem of not having in advance — there a problem of not having in advance careful contingency plans? | advance careful contingency plans? i am advance careful contingency plans? am not advance careful contingency plans? i am not sure... i don't agree with the characterisation and i think that taking one comment from a notebook doesn't necessarily capture what happened. not least because we did have contingencies, for instance, to put testing into schools once we had an enormous testing capability by the autumn. thank you. testing capability by the autumn. thank ou. . , testing capability by the autumn. thank ou. ., , ., testing capability by the autumn. thank ou. , ., , testing capability by the autumn. thank you— thank you. last question is down there, thank you. last question is down there. mr — thank you. last question is down there, mr hancock. _ thank you. last question is down there, mr hancock. i— thank you. last question is down there, mr hancock. i ask - thank you. last question is down there, mr hancock. i ask you - thank you. last question is down there, mr hancock. i ask you a i thank you. last question is down - there, mr hancock. i ask you a small number of — there, mr hancock. i ask you a small number of questions _ there, mr hancock. i ask you a small number of questions on _ there, mr hancock. i ask you a small number of questions on two - there, mr hancock. i ask you a small number of questions on two topics i there, mr hancock. i ask you a small| number of questions on two topics on behalf— number of questions on two topics on behalf of— number of questions on two topics on behalf of the — number of questions on two topics on behalf of the long _ number of questions on two topics on behalf of the long covid _ number of questions on two topics on behalf of the long covid groups. - number of questions on two topics on behalf of the long covid groups. you. behalf of the long covid groups. you said you _ behalf of the long covid groups. you said you agreed _ behalf of the long covid groups. you said you agreed to _ behalf of the long covid groups. you said you agreed to pick— behalf of the long covid groups. you said you agreed to pick together - behalf of the long covid groups. you said you agreed to pick together a i said you agreed to pick together a campaign — said you agreed to pick together a campaign on — said you agreed to pick together a campaign on long _ said you agreed to pick together a campaign on long covid _ said you agreed to pick together a campaign on long covid on- said you agreed to pick together a campaign on long covid on the - said you agreed to pick together a i campaign on long covid on the 31st ofjuly_ campaign on long covid on the 31st ofjuly 2020 — campaign on long covid on the 31st of july 2020 at _ campaign on long covid on the 31st ofjuly 2020 at a _ campaign on long covid on the 31st ofjuly 2020 at a roundtable - campaign on long covid on the 31st ofjuly 2020 at a roundtable whichl ofjuly 2020 at a roundtable which resulted _ ofjuly 2020 at a roundtable which resulted in — ofjuly 2020 at a roundtable which resulted in the _ ofjuly 2020 at a roundtable which resulted in the public— ofjuly 2020 at a roundtable which resulted in the public campaign i resulted in the public campaign launched — resulted in the public campaign launched in— resulted in the public campaign launched in october— resulted in the public campaign launched in october 2020. - resulted in the public campaign launched in october 2020. this agreement— launched in october 2020. this agreement came _ launched in october 2020. this agreement came after- launched in october 2020. this agreement came after long - launched in october 2020. this. agreement came after long covid launched in october 2020. this- agreement came after long covid sos wrote to _ agreement came after long covid sos wrote to you — agreement came after long covid sos wrote to you in — agreement came after long covid sos wrote to you in july— agreement came after long covid sos wrote to you in july 2020 _ agreement came after long covid sos wrote to you in july 2020 saying - wrote to you in july 2020 saying they were — wrote to you in july 2020 saying they were struggling _ wrote to you in july 2020 saying they were struggling to - wrote to you in july 2020 saying they were struggling to get - wrote to you in july 2020 saying they were struggling to get help from the — they were struggling to get help from the medical— they were struggling to get help from the medical community. they were struggling to get helpj from the medical community for they were struggling to get help - from the medical community for their disease _ from the medical community for their disease and _ from the medical community for their disease and felt _ from the medical community for their disease and felt abandoned _ from the medical community for their disease and felt abandoned by- from the medical community for their disease and felt abandoned by the . disease and felt abandoned by the government _ disease and felt abandoned by the government in— disease and felt abandoned by the government. in the _ disease and felt abandoned by the government. in the interim, - disease and felt abandoned by the government. in the interim, longl government. in the interim, long covid _ government. in the interim, long covid support— government. in the interim, long covid support raised _ government. in the interim, long covid support raised similar- covid support raised similar concerns— covid support raised similar concerns with _ covid support raised similar concerns withjeremy- covid support raised similar concerns with jeremy hunti covid support raised similar. concerns with jeremy hunt and covid support raised similar- concerns with jeremy hunt and she responded — concerns with jeremy hunt and she responded to — concerns with jeremy hunt and she responded to a _ concerns with jeremy hunt and she responded to a letter— concerns with jeremy hunt and she responded to a letter they - concerns with jeremy hunt and she responded to a letter they wrote i concerns with jeremy hunt and she responded to a letter they wrote inj responded to a letter they wrote in september— responded to a letter they wrote in september 2020 _ responded to a letter they wrote in september 2020 and _ responded to a letter they wrote in september 2020 and in _ responded to a letter they wrote in september 2020 and in october. responded to a letter they wrote in - september 2020 and in october 2020, ion- september 2020 and in october 2020, long covid _ september 2020 and in october 2020, long covid kids — september 2020 and in october 2020, long covid kids also _ september 2020 and in october 2020, long covid kids also raised _ long covid kids also raised additional— long covid kids also raised additional concerns- long covid kids also raised additional concerns in- long covid kids also raised - additional concerns in relation to [on- additional concerns in relation to long covid — additional concerns in relation to long covid in— additional concerns in relation to long covid in children _ additional concerns in relation to long covid in children in - additional concerns in relation to long covid in children in a - additional concerns in relation to long covid in children in a publicl long covid in children in a public letter— long covid in children in a public letter to— long covid in children in a public letter to the _ long covid in children in a public letter to the british _ long covid in children in a public letter to the british medical- letter to the british medical journat _ letter to the british medical journat in— letter to the british medical journal. injanuary- letter to the british medical journal. in january 2021, . letter to the british medical. journal. injanuary 2021, long letter to the british medical- journal. injanuary 2021, long covid support— journal. injanuary 2021, long covid support wrote — journal. injanuary 2021, long covid support wrote a _ journal. injanuary 2021, long covid support wrote a letter _ journal. injanuary 2021, long covid support wrote a letter to _ journal. injanuary 2021, long covid support wrote a letter to all- support wrote a letter to all members— support wrote a letter to all members of— support wrote a letter to all members of parliament, i support wrote a letter to all. members of parliament, still support wrote a letter to all- members of parliament, still asking that long _ members of parliament, still asking that long covid _ members of parliament, still asking that long covid be _ members of parliament, still asking that long covid be made _ members of parliament, still asking that long covid be made of- members of parliament, still asking that long covid be made of the - that long covid be made of the narrative _ that long covid be made of the narrative. we _ that long covid be made of the narrative. we know, _ that long covid be made of the narrative. we know, and - that long covid be made of the narrative. we know, and you i that long covid be made of the i narrative. we know, and you have said, _ narrative. we know, and you have said. that — narrative. we know, and you have said. that dhs _ narrative. we know, and you have said, that dhs see _ narrative. we know, and you have said, that dhs see issued - narrative. we know, and you have said, that dhs see issued a - narrative. we know, and you have said, that dhs see issued a press| said, that dhs see issued a press statement — said, that dhs see issued a press statement in _ said, that dhs see issued a press statement injust— said, that dhs see issued a press statement in just the _ said, that dhs see issued a press statement in just the one - said, that dhs see issued a press statement injust the one video. said, that dhs see issued a pressl statement injust the one video on the 21st _ statement injust the one video on the 21st of— statement injust the one video on the 21st of october _ statement injust the one video on the 21st of october 2020. - statement injust the one video on the 21st of october 2020. one - the 21st of october 2020. one statement, _ the 21st of october 2020. one statement, no _ the 21st of october 2020. one statement, no slogans - the 21st of october 2020. one | statement, no slogans created, the 21st of october 2020. one - statement, no slogans created, no public— statement, no slogans created, no public information _ statement, no slogans created, no public information campaigns - statement, no slogans created, no public information campaigns werej public information campaigns were launched _ public information campaigns were launched and — public information campaigns were launched and no _ public information campaigns were launched and no further— public information campaigns were launched and no further videos - public information campaigns were launched and no further videos ori launched and no further videos or press _ launched and no further videos or press statements— launched and no further videos or press statements were _ launched and no further videos or press statements were released. | launched and no further videos or - press statements were released. you have said _ press statements were released. you have said yourself _ press statements were released. you have said yourself that _ have said yourself that communication- have said yourself that communication is- have said yourself that communication is an i have said yourself that - communication is an important have said yourself that _ communication is an important npi, why wasn't— communication is an important npi, why wasn't more _ communication is an important npi, why wasn't more done _ communication is an important npi, why wasn't more done to _ communication is an important npi, i why wasn't more done to communicate at the _ why wasn't more done to communicate at the risk— why wasn't more done to communicate at the risk of _ why wasn't more done to communicate at the risk of long _ why wasn't more done to communicate at the risk of long covid _ why wasn't more done to communicate at the risk of long covid to _ why wasn't more done to communicate at the risk of long covid to the - at the risk of long covid to the public— at the risk of long covid to the public when _ at the risk of long covid to the public when you _ at the risk of long covid to the public when you had _ at the risk of long covid to the public when you had a - at the risk of long covid to the public when you had a long. at the risk of long covid to the i public when you had a long covid groups _ public when you had a long covid groups repeatedly— public when you had a long covid groups repeatedly raising - public when you had a long covid i groups repeatedly raising concern about _ groups repeatedly raising concern about the — groups repeatedly raising concern about the lack— groups repeatedly raising concern about the lack of— groups repeatedly raising concern| about the lack of communication? groups repeatedly raising concern i about the lack of communication? i am about the lack of communication? am very grateful to you for the about the lack of communication?“ am very grateful to you for the work you have done, the group has done on this and writing to me injuly was important because it made me realise that there was a problem that needed to be addressed given i knew about the impact of the long covid personally. and hence i convened that round table and we took the action we did and we discussed earlier white took six weeks from then to october, mid october, to launch the plan. the only part of your question that i would disagree with is that there was only one comment put out. i repeatedly discussed long covid on both my media appearances and social media appearances and other areas. it is absolutely true that it felt like it was an area i needed to push. do you atree and was an area i needed to push. do you agree and accept _ was an area i needed to push. do you agree and accept that _ was an area i needed to push. do you agree and accept that insufficient - agree and accept that insufficient was done — agree and accept that insufficient was done to— agree and accept that insufficient was done to communicate - agree and accept that insufficient was done to communicate the . agree and accept that insufficientl was done to communicate the risk agree and accept that insufficient - was done to communicate the risk of lon- was done to communicate the risk of long covid _ was done to communicate the risk of long covid to — was done to communicate the risk of long covid to the _ was done to communicate the risk of long covid to the public? _ was done to communicate the risk of long covid to the public? i— was done to communicate the risk of long covid to the public?— long covid to the public? i think that raising _ long covid to the public? i think that raising concerns _ long covid to the public? i think that raising concerns about - long covid to the public? i thinkj that raising concerns about long covid was an important part of explaining why it is important to tackle covid. the large swathes of the public understood that and were on side from that. the campaign against it ranged in a relatively small part of the political debate, if you like. small part of the political debate, if ou like. ., ., ., if you like. you raised long covid on our if you like. you raised long covid on your own. _ if you like. you raised long covid on your own, but _ if you like. you raised long covid on your own, but why _ if you like. you raised long covid on your own, but why wasn't - if you like. you raised long covid on your own, but why wasn't it i on your own, but why wasn't it raised — on your own, but why wasn't it raised across _ on your own, but why wasn't it raised across government? - on your own, but why wasn't it raised across government? i i on your own, but why wasn't it raised across government? i don't know, raised across government? i don't know. you — raised across government? i don't know. you will _ raised across government? i don't know, you will have _ raised across government? i don't know, you will have to _ raised across government? i don't know, you will have to ask- raised across government? i don't know, you will have to ask people | know, you will have to ask people across government. i mean... i had my shoulders at the wheel on this one. ., ,., ., , my shoulders at the wheel on this one. ., ., , ., one. you said the only way to revent one. you said the only way to prevent long _ one. you said the only way to prevent long covid _ one. you said the only way to prevent long covid was - one. you said the only way to prevent long covid was to . one. you said the only way to - prevent long covid was to prevent covid, _ prevent long covid was to prevent covid, when — prevent long covid was to prevent covid, when decisions _ prevent long covid was to prevent covid, when decisions were - prevent long covid was to prevent covid, when decisions were madel prevent long covid was to prevent i covid, when decisions were made to release _ covid, when decisions were made to release restrictions— covid, when decisions were made to release restrictions in— covid, when decisions were made to release restrictions in 2021, - covid, when decisions were made to release restrictions in 2021, wasn't i release restrictions in 2021, wasn't it even— release restrictions in 2021, wasn't it even more — release restrictions in 2021, wasn't it even more important— release restrictions in 2021, wasn't it even more important to - it even more important to communicate _ it even more important to communicate the - it even more important to communicate the risk- it even more important to communicate the risk of. it even more important to - communicate the risk of long covid to encourage — communicate the risk of long covid to encourage people, _ communicate the risk of long covid to encourage people, including - communicate the risk of long covid to encourage people, including the| to encourage people, including the young, _ to encourage people, including the young, to — to encourage people, including the young, to maintain _ to encourage people, including the young, to maintain protective - young, to maintain protective behaviours _ young, to maintain protective behaviours to _ young, to maintain protective behaviours to avoid _ young, to maintain protective behaviours to avoid long - young, to maintain protective i behaviours to avoid long covid? young, to maintain protective - behaviours to avoid long covid? yes, i think that is — behaviours to avoid long covid? i think that is reasonable. the pace at which the restrictions were lifted in 2021 was driven by the data, with gaps wide enough to be able to see the impact of each restriction. i think this was important after the experience of lifting too much in 2020.- important after the experience of lifting too much in 2020. would you acce t, lifting too much in 2020. would you accept, therefore, _ lifting too much in 2020. would you accept, therefore, there _ lifting too much in 2020. would you accept, therefore, there was - lifting too much in 2020. would you accept, therefore, there was a - accept, therefore, there was a failing — accept, therefore, there was a failing to — accept, therefore, there was a failing to communicate - accept, therefore, there was a - failing to communicate sufficiently the risk— failing to communicate sufficiently the risk of— failing to communicate sufficiently the risk of long _ failing to communicate sufficiently the risk of long covid _ failing to communicate sufficiently the risk of long covid in _ failing to communicate sufficiently the risk of long covid in 2021, - the risk of long covid in 2021, particularly _ the risk of long covid in 2021, particularly concerning - the risk of long covid in 2021, particularly concerning young i particularly concerning young people? _ particularly concerning young people? i— particularly concerning young eo - le? ~ particularly concerning young --eole? ~ . �* , people? ithink... i haven't seen the amount— people? ithink... i haven't seen the amount of— people? ithink... i haven't seen the amount of cross _ people? ithink... i haven't seen the amount of cross government communication there was on it, all i can tell you is that this was something i was personally concerned about and used my own communications to reinforce the point. thrill about and used my own communications to reinforce the point.— to reinforce the point. all right. on the second _ to reinforce the point. all right. on the second topic, _ to reinforce the point. all right. on the second topic, we - to reinforce the point. all right. on the second topic, we know. to reinforce the point. all right. i on the second topic, we know that the dhs _ on the second topic, we know that the dhs be — on the second topic, we know that the dhs be established _ on the second topic, we know that the dhs be established extensivei the dhs be established extensive ministerial— the dhs be established extensive ministerial roundtable _ the dhs be established extensive ministerial roundtable is - the dhs be established extensive ministerial roundtable is on - the dhs be established extensive ministerial roundtable is on the i ministerial roundtable is on the long-term — ministerial roundtable is on the long—term effects _ ministerial roundtable is on the long—term effects of _ ministerial roundtable is on the long—term effects of covid—19,i ministerial roundtable is on the - long—term effects of covid—19, these were chaired — long—term effects of covid—19, these were chaired by— long—term effects of covid—19, these were chaired by lord _ long—term effects of covid—19, these were chaired by lord bethel- long—term effects of covid—19, these were chaired by lord bethel in - were chaired by lord bethel in october— were chaired by lord bethel in october 2020. _ were chaired by lord bethel in october 2020. you _ were chaired by lord bethel in october 2020. you attended i were chaired by lord bethel in i october 2020. you attended one were chaired by lord bethel in - october 2020. you attended one of the round _ october 2020. you attended one of the round tables _ october 2020. you attended one of the round tables on _ october 2020. you attended one of the round tables on the _ october 2020. you attended one of the round tables on the 23rd - october 2020. you attended one of the round tables on the 23rd of - the round tables on the 23rd of fabry— the round tables on the 23rd of fabry 2021. _ the round tables on the 23rd of fabry2021. i— the round tables on the 23rd of fabry 2021, idon't— the round tables on the 23rd of fabry 2021, idon't think - the round tables on the 23rd of fabry 2021, i don't think we - the round tables on the 23rd of i fabry 2021, i don't think we need the round tables on the 23rd of - fabry 2021, idon't think we need to fabry 2021, i don't think we need to id fabry 2021, idon't think we need to go to— fabry 2021, i don't think we need to go to it. _ fabry 2021, idon't think we need to go to it. patient— fabry 2021, i don't think we need to go to it, patient advocates - fabry 2021, i don't think we need to go to it, patient advocates also - go to it, patient advocates also attended — go to it, patient advocates also attended the _ go to it, patient advocates also attended the round _ go to it, patient advocates also attended the round tables - go to it, patient advocates also attended the round tables and i go to it, patient advocates also - attended the round tables and have said they— attended the round tables and have said they couldn't _ attended the round tables and have said they couldn't see _ attended the round tables and have said they couldn't see how- attended the round tables and have said they couldn't see how the - said they couldn't see how the discussion— said they couldn't see how the discussion is— said they couldn't see how the discussion is translated - said they couldn't see how the discussion is translated into i discussion is translated into policy _ discussion is translated into policy. the _ discussion is translated into policy. the question - discussion is translated into policy. the question is, - discussion is translated intoj policy. the question is, how discussion is translated into - policy. the question is, how did insights— policy. the question is, how did insights from _ policy. the question is, how did insights from the _ policy. the question is, how did insights from the round - policy. the question is, how did insights from the round tables i insights from the round tables inform — insights from the round tables inform the _ insights from the round tables inform the decisions _ insights from the round tables inform the decisions that - insights from the round tables inform the decisions that you i insights from the round tables . inform the decisions that you and other— inform the decisions that you and other decision—makers— inform the decisions that you and other decision—makers made - inform the decisions that you and other decision—makers made in. other decision—makers made in response — other decision—makers made in response to _ other decision—makers made in response to the _ other decision—makers made in response to the pandemic? - other decision—makers made in. response to the pandemic? what other decision-makers made in response to the pandemic? what i would say is _ response to the pandemic? what i would say is that _ response to the pandemic? what i would say is that getting - response to the pandemic? what i would say is that getting action . response to the pandemic? what i would say is that getting action onj would say is that getting action on this subject was hard. even as a secretary of state and with an excellent minister, lord bethel, who did a brilliantjob during the pandemic, even with both of us pushing on it, it was difficult to get the movement that we needed within the nhs. sometimes people describe working in government as wading through treacle and long covid was undoubtedly an area where i didn't get the responsiveness that i didn't get the responsiveness that i would have hoped for and did get in some other areas. flan i would have hoped for and did get in some other areas.— i would have hoped for and did get in some other areas. can you explain wh ? can in some other areas. can you explain why? can i — in some other areas. can you explain why? can i explain — in some other areas. can you explain why? can i explain why _ in some other areas. can you explain why? can i explain why government | why? can i explain why government works like that? _ why? can i explain why government works like that? no... _ works like that? no... studio: _ works like that? no... studio: lets - works like that? no... studio: lets break. works like that? no... i studio: lets break away works like that? no... - studio: lets break away now is works like that? no... _ studio: lets break away now is the covert inquiry in central london is due to conclude for the day in the next few minutes. you are just watching the former health secretary matt hancock continuing to give evidence. some interesting points to come from his answers including some notable criticism towards the now prime minister rishi sunak as well as the former first minister of scotland nicola sturgeon. he was also questioned on the effects to care homes and ethnic minorities amongst other groups, disabled people and those who were suffering from domestic violence. for more, you can head to our bbc news website or the app where you can get lots of reaction and analysis from our correspondence. all you can stay tuned for the one o'clock news which is coming up next. he warned delegates at cop28 that despite some progress, efforts made so far were nowhere near enough. some important progress has been made, but it worries me greatly that we remain so dreadfully far off track. hostilities between hamas and israel flare again after the breakdown of a temporary ceasefire. wilko is now open! wilko stores shut down after the high street chain collapsed have begun to re—open under new ownership. and why short—eared owls normally in scandinavia have been heading our way. and coming up on bbc news... uefa have strongly condemned the violence before aston villa's europa conference league win over legia warsaw, where the polish

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