of countermeasures. why did you not say those things?— say those things? that is not howl would characterise _ say those things? that is not howl would characterise the _ say those things? that is not howl would characterise the situation. i would characterise the situation. the first thing is that i am not confident that by this cabinet meeting, i will have known that sage had concluded that containment was lost. and in fact, i don't think that i was told that for a number of days after. as i said, i'm not exactly sure when i was told that. but this meeting was the morning after the minutes of sage coming to that conclusion. secondly, at this point in the department and nphet and the health service, we were working extremely hard to prepare for the pandemic. i had commissioned the action plan and work was under way on that —— and phe. we were attempting and pushing phe to build the testing system and all of the other things we were directly responsible for. as i say, we weren't directly responsible for pis. and that is the focus of your questioning. pis. and that is the focus of your questioning-— pis. and that is the focus of your questioning. thank you, can i 'ust ask ou questioning. thank you, can i 'ust askyouto— questioning. thank you, can i 'ust ask you to elaborate i questioning. thank you, can i 'ust ask you to elaborate furtherh questioning. thank you, can ijust ask you to elaborate further on i questioning. thank you, can i just | ask you to elaborate further on not being _ ask you to elaborate further on not being responsible _ ask you to elaborate further on not being responsible for— ask you to elaborate further on not being responsible for mpis. - ask you to elaborate further on not being responsible for mpis. you i ask you to elaborate further on notl being responsible for mpis. you are the secretary— being responsible for mpis. you are the secretary of— being responsible for mpis. you are the secretary of state _ being responsible for mpis. you are the secretary of state for _ being responsible for mpis. you are the secretary of state for health - the secretary of state for health and also — the secretary of state for health and also cabinet _ the secretary of state for health and also cabinet minister. - the secretary of state for health and also cabinet minister. if- the secretary of state for healthi and also cabinet minister. if you would _ and also cabinet minister. if you would just— and also cabinet minister. if you would just allow— and also cabinet minister. if you would just allow me, _ and also cabinet minister. if you would just allow me, mr- and also cabinet minister. if you i would just allow me, mr hancock. subject— would just allow me, mr hancock. subject to — would just allow me, mr hancock. subject to collective _ would just allow me, mr hancock. subject to collective responsibility and also _ subject to collective responsibility and also a — subject to collective responsibility and also a major— subject to collective responsibility and also a major player— subject to collective responsibility and also a major player at - subject to collective responsibility and also a major player at the - and also a major player at the highest — and also a major player at the highest level— and also a major player at the highest level of— and also a major player at the highest level of government. i and also a major player at the . highest level of government. to and also a major player at the - highest level of government. to what extent— highest level of government. to what extent is— highest level of government. to what extent is it _ highest level of government. to what extent is it permissible _ highest level of government. to what extent is it permissible for— highest level of government. to what extent is it permissible for a - extent is it permissible for a secretary _ extent is it permissible for a secretary of _ extent is it permissible for a secretary of state _ extent is it permissible for a secretary of state to - extent is it permissible for a secretary of state to say- extent is it permissible for a secretary of state to say on| extent is it permissible for a - secretary of state to say on behalf of their— secretary of state to say on behalf of their department, _ secretary of state to say on behalf of their department, particularly l of their department, particularly the department— of their department, particularly the department which _ of their department, particularly the department which is - of their department, particularly . the department which is concerned with health — the department which is concerned with health in _ the department which is concerned with health in a _ the department which is concerned with health in a public— the department which is concerned with health in a public health- with health in a public health crisis. — with health in a public health crisis. the _ with health in a public health crisis, the national- with health in a public health- crisis, the national countermeasures were not— crisis, the national countermeasures were not strictly— crisis, the national countermeasures were not strictly within _ crisis, the national countermeasures were not strictly within our— were not strictly within our purview, _ were not strictly within our purview. they— were not strictly within our purview, they were - were not strictly within our purview, they were a - were not strictly within our. purview, they were a matter were not strictly within our- purview, they were a matter for cross _ purview, they were a matter for cross government, _ purview, they were a matter for cross government, will- purview, they were a matter for cross government, will oversee | purview, they were a matter for. cross government, will oversee a great _ cross government, will oversee a great deal— cross government, will oversee a great deal of _ cross government, will oversee a great deal of time _ cross government, will oversee a great deal of time is _ cross government, will oversee a great deal of time is spent - cross government, will oversee a great deal of time is spent on - cross government, will oversee a . great deal of time is spent on cross governmental— great deal of time is spent on cross governmental meetings. _ great deal of time is spent on cross governmental meetings. you - great deal of time is spent on cross governmental meetings. you havei governmental meetings. you have thousands— governmental meetings. you have thousands of— governmental meetings. you have thousands of calls, _ governmental meetings. you have thousands of calls, thousands - governmental meetings. you have thousands of calls, thousands of. thousands of calls, thousands of meetings, — thousands of calls, thousands of meetings, thousands— thousands of calls, thousands of meetings, thousands of- thousands of calls, thousands of meetings, thousands of officials| meetings, thousands of officials working — meetings, thousands of officials working round _ meetings, thousands of officials working round the _ meetings, thousands of officials working round the clock - meetings, thousands of officialsi working round the clock between meetings, thousands of officials - working round the clock between you all to get _ working round the clock between you all to get on — working round the clock between you all to get on top _ working round the clock between you all to get on top of— working round the clock between you all to get on top of this _ working round the clock between you all to get on top of this issue, - working round the clock between you all to get on top of this issue, is - all to get on top of this issue, is that a _ all to get on top of this issue, is that a sustainable _ all to get on top of this issue, is that a sustainable position? - all to get on top of this issue, is that a sustainable position? it. all to get on top of this issue, isj that a sustainable position? it is in as far as _ that a sustainable position? it is in as far as the _ that a sustainable position? in as far as the point i made. that a sustainable position?- in as far as the point i made. the point i am making is that there was a huge amount of work going on on these things, including in the department. the wider point i'm making is that there was a limit to what we in the department could do, what we in the department could do, what it was reasonable to do. we frequently strayed outside the limit of what the health department ought to or normally did. and so you are asking me for essentially a paper trail around this. of course in the national meetings, i should have, trail around this. of course in the national meetings, ishould have, it was my role to push for these sorts of measures. the detail of who wrote what the measures should be was not a matterfor me, that is what the measures should be was not a matter for me, that is the distinction.— a matter for me, that is the distinction. . . distinction. right, which this -- which department _ distinction. right, which this -- which department of— distinction. right, which this -- i which department of government carried _ which department of government carried the — which department of government carried the prime _ which department of government carried the prime responsibility. which department of governmentl carried the prime responsibility for thinking _ carried the prime responsibility for thinking about _ carried the prime responsibility for thinking about drawing _ carried the prime responsibility for thinking about drawing up - carried the prime responsibility for thinking about drawing up and - thinking about drawing up and debating — thinking about drawing up and debating the _ thinking about drawing up and debating the application - thinking about drawing up and debating the application of - debating the application of countermeasures, - debating the application ofi countermeasures, infection debating the application of - countermeasures, infection control countermeasures? _ countermeasures, infection control countermeasures?— countermeasures, infection control countermeasures? infection control in the pepulation — countermeasures? infection control in the population as _ countermeasures? infection control in the population as a _ countermeasures? infection control in the population as a whole - countermeasures? infection control in the population as a whole as - in the population as a whole as opposed to hospitals and care homes? cabinet office. cabinet office. cobra — cabinet office. cabinet office. cobra on — cabinet office. cabinet office. cobra on the _ cabinet office. cabinet office. cobra on the 18th _ cabinet office. cabinet office. cobra on the 18th of _ cabinet office. cabinet office. j cobra on the 18th of february, cabinet office. cabinet office. - cobra on the 18th of february, 560 27, again. — cobra on the 18th of february, 560 27, again. you— cobra on the 18th of february, 560 27, again, you chaired— cobra on the 18th of february, 560 27, again, you chaired this - cobra on the 18th of february, 560 27, again, you chaired this cobra, i 27, again, you chaired this cobra, mr hancock, _ 27, again, you chaired this cobra, mr hancock, it _ 27, again, you chaired this cobra, mr hancock, it is _ 27, again, you chaired this cobra, mr hancock, it is one _ 27, again, you chaired this cobra, mr hancock, it is one of— 27, again, you chaired this cobra, mr hancock, it is one of the - 27, again, you chaired this cobra, mr hancock, it is one of the five l 27, again, you chaired this cobra, | mr hancock, it is one of the five or six cobra _ mr hancock, it is one of the five or six cobra meetings _ mr hancock, it is one of the five or six cobra meetings at _ mr hancock, it is one of the five or six cobra meetings at that - mr hancock, it is one of the five or six cobra meetings at that time . mr hancock, it is one of the five orl six cobra meetings at that time you chaired _ six cobra meetings at that time you chaired. professor— six cobra meetings at that time you chaired. professor chris _ six cobra meetings at that time you chaired. professor chris whitty - six cobra meetings at that time you chaired. professor chris whitty on l chaired. professor chris whitty on page _ chaired. professor chris whitty on page five. — chaired. professor chris whitty on page five. paragraph— chaired. professor chris whitty on page five, paragraph two, - chaired. professor chris whitty on page five, paragraph two, says, l page five, paragraph two, says, provides— page five, paragraph two, says, provides an _ page five, paragraph two, says, provides an update _ page five, paragraph two, says, provides an update on - page five, paragraph two, says, provides an update on the - page five, paragraph two, says, i provides an update on the global risk, _ provides an update on the global risk, both— provides an update on the global risk, both escalation _ provides an update on the global risk, both escalation to - provides an update on the global risk, both escalation to global i risk, both escalation to global pandemic— risk, both escalation to global pandemic and _ risk, both escalation to global pandemic and isolation - risk, both escalation to global pandemic and isolation of- risk, both escalation to global pandemic and isolation of the | pandemic and isolation of the majority— pandemic and isolation of the majority of— pandemic and isolation of the majority of cases _ pandemic and isolation of the majority of cases to - pandemic and isolation of the majority of cases to china - pandemic and isolation of the - majority of cases to china written -- remained _ majority of cases to china written —— remained realistic— majority of cases to china writteni —— remained realistic possibilities. mindful— —— remained realistic possibilities. mindful of— —— remained realistic possibilities. mindful of what _ —— remained realistic possibilities. mindful of what you _ —— remained realistic possibilities. mindful of what you said _ —— remained realistic possibilities. mindful of what you said that - —— remained realistic possibilities. mindful of what you said that you i mindful of what you said that you don't _ mindful of what you said that you don't know — mindful of what you said that you don't know when _ mindful of what you said that you don't know when you _ mindful of what you said that you don't know when you are - mindful of what you said that you don't know when you are told - mindful of what you said that you i don't know when you are told that sage _ don't know when you are told that sage had — don't know when you are told that sage had concluded _ don't know when you are told that sage had concluded that - don't know when you are told that sage had concluded that china - don't know when you are told that| sage had concluded that china had failed _ sage had concluded that china had failed to— sage had concluded that china had failed to contain _ sage had concluded that china had failed to contain coronavirus - sage had concluded that china had failed to contain coronavirus19, i failed to contain coronavirus19, this is— failed to contain coronavirus19, this is now— failed to contain coronavirus19, this is now four— failed to contain coronavirus19, this is now four days _ failed to contain coronavirus19, this is now four days further - failed to contain coronavirus19, j this is now four days further on. did anybody— this is now four days further on. did anybody think, _ this is now four days further on. did anybody think, as _ this is now four days further on. did anybody think, as far - this is now four days further on. did anybody think, as far as - this is now four days further on. did anybody think, as far as you this is now four days further on. - did anybody think, as far as you are able to— did anybody think, as far as you are able to tell, — did anybody think, as far as you are able to tell, to _ did anybody think, as far as you are able to tell, to stop _ did anybody think, as far as you are able to tell, to stop and _ did anybody think, as far as you are able to tell, to stop and say, - did anybody think, as far as you are able to tell, to stop and say, if - able to tell, to stop and say, if china _ able to tell, to stop and say, if china has— able to tell, to stop and say, if china has lost _ able to tell, to stop and say, if china has lost control, - able to tell, to stop and say, if china has lost control, to - able to tell, to stop and say, if china has lost control, to what| china has lost control, to what extent — china has lost control, to what extent can _ china has lost control, to what extent can we _ china has lost control, to what extent can we be _ china has lost control, to what extent can we be assured - china has lost control, to what extent can we be assured —— l china has lost control, to what - extent can we be assured —— assured it is still— extent can we be assured —— assured it is still only — extent can we be assured —— assured it is still only a — extent can we be assured —— assured it is still only a realistic _ it is still only a realistic possibility— it is still only a realistic possibility the - it is still only a realistic possibility the majority| it is still only a realistic . possibility the majority of it is still only a realistic - possibility the majority of cases will be — possibility the majority of cases will be confined _ possibility the majority of cases will be confined to _ possibility the majority of cases will be confined to it? - possibility the majority of cases will be confined to it? there - possibility the majority of cases - will be confined to it? there seems to be _ will be confined to it? there seems to be little — will be confined to it? there seems to be little debate _ will be confined to it? there seems to be little debate about _ will be confined to it? there seems to be little debate about this - to be little debate about this assumption _ to be little debate about this assumption-— to be little debate about this assumtion. , . , . to be little debate about this assumtion. . . , . assumption. this final sentence you have brought _ assumption. this final sentence you have brought up _ assumption. this final sentence you have brought up here _ assumption. this final sentence you have brought up here is _ assumption. this final sentence you have brought up here is my - have brought up here is my recollection of what i was being advised at the time and what i thought at the time. so when i was struggling to answer the question of when i was told the conclusion from sage, this is closer to what i remember understanding at the time. and you have to remember in terms of process, apologies, sage outcomes were reported to me by professor whitty. did were reported to me by professor whi . , , ., ., were reported to me by professor whi ., ., ., whitty. did you not read the minutes? — whitty. did you not read the minutes? later— whitty. did you not read the minutes? later in _ whitty. did you not read the minutes? later in the - whitty. did you not read the - minutes? later in the pandemic, i took the minutes _ minutes? later in the pandemic, i took the minutes directly, - minutes? later in the pandemic, i took the minutes directly, but - minutes? later in the pandemic, i took the minutes directly, but at l took the minutes directly, but at this early stage, i was given a readout from professor whitty. did anybody know the secretary of state for help _ anybody know the secretary of state for help was — anybody know the secretary of state for help was not— anybody know the secretary of state for help was not reading _ anybody know the secretary of state for help was not reading the - anybody know the secretary of state | for help was not reading the minutes day in. _ for help was not reading the minutes day in. day— for help was not reading the minutes day in. day out — for help was not reading the minutes day in, day out from _ for help was not reading the minutes day in, day out from the _ for help was not reading the minutes day in, day out from the only- day in, day out from the only scientific— day in, day out from the only scientific advisory— day in, day out from the only scientific advisory committee day in, day out from the only. scientific advisory committee for emergencies? _ scientific advisory committee for emergencies? i— scientific advisory committee for emergencies? i don't _ scientific advisory committee for emergencies? i don't know. - scientific advisory committee for emergencies? i don't know. thej emergencies? i don't know. the evidence — emergencies? i don't know. the evidence before _ emergencies? i don't know. the evidence before this _ emergencies? i don't know. the evidence before this inquiry, - emergencies? i don't know. the evidence before this inquiry, mr| evidence before this inquiry, mr hancock— evidence before this inquiry, mr hancock is — evidence before this inquiry, mr hancock is the _ evidence before this inquiry, mr hancock is the minutes - evidence before this inquiry, mr hancock is the minutes were . hancock is the minutes were deliberately— hancock is the minutes were deliberately consensual, - hancock is the minutes were - deliberately consensual, consensus driven _ deliberately consensual, consensus driven and — deliberately consensual, consensus driven and short _ deliberately consensual, consensus driven and short. there _ deliberately consensual, consensus driven and short. there were - deliberately consensual, consensus driven and short. there were quitel driven and short. there were quite short _ driven and short. there were quite short to— driven and short. there were quite short. to enable _ driven and short. there were quite short. to enable them _ driven and short. there were quite short. to enable them to - driven and short. there were quite short. to enable them to be - driven and short. there were quite short. to enable them to be read i driven and short. there were quite i short. to enable them to be read by cabinet _ short. to enable them to be read by cabinet office, _ short. to enable them to be read by cabinet office, dhsc. _ short. to enable them to be read by cabinet office, dhsc. civil— cabinet office, dhsc. civil contingency— cabinet office, dhsc. civil contingency secretariat, l cabinet office, dhsc. civil- contingency secretariat, number 10 and so _ contingency secretariat, number 10 and so on — contingency secretariat, number 10 and so on but— contingency secretariat, number 10 and so on. but they— contingency secretariat, number 10 and so on. but they were _ contingency secretariat, number 10 and so on. but they were not - contingency secretariat, number 10 and so on. but they were not read i contingency secretariat, number 10 i and so on. but they were not read by you? _ and so on. but they were not read by ou? , . . , ., ~' and so on. but they were not read by ou? , . . , ., 4' , you? they certainly work when they were presented _ you? they certainly work when they were presented to _ you? they certainly work when they were presented to me. _ you? they certainly work when they were presented to me. and - you? they certainly work when they were presented to me. and they . you? they certainly work when they i were presented to me. and they were reported to me by the cmo and this is my understanding of the situation at the time. flan is my understanding of the situation at the time. . , ,, is my understanding of the situation at the time-— at the time. can i press you, please. _ at the time. can i press you, please. to — at the time. can i press you, please, to help _ at the time. can i press you, please, to help us _ at the time. can i press you, please, to help us with - at the time. can i press you, j please, to help us with when at the time. can i press you, - please, to help us with when you first started _ please, to help us with when you first started regularly _ please, to help us with when you first started regularly being - first started regularly being presented _ first started regularly being presented with _ first started regularly being presented with and - first started regularly being presented with and readingj first started regularly being - presented with and reading them? i asked presented with and reading them? asked for them at some point in february. to be regularly put in my box, alongside being, the formal process was not, i can come onto this because i have quite a lot of thoughts about how this interaction operated and it is very, very important. with hindsight, i hindsight, i think i should have gone and listen directly to the debate in sage. i don't think that would have cleared the pitch. but sage was a committee that remember at this point, it did not have the sort of nationally known significance that it does now. it was a group of scientists who came together to make recommendations and bring the science to the cso together to make recommendations and bring the science to the cs0 and the cmo. bring the science to the c50 and the (mo. ., , , bring the science to the c50 and the cmo. regardless of their public prominence. — cmo. regardless of their public prominence, mr _ cmo. regardless of their public prominence, mr hancock, - cmo. regardless of their public prominence, mr hancock, the i cmo. regardless of their public- prominence, mr hancock, the position is that— prominence, mr hancock, the position is that sage _ prominence, mr hancock, the position is that sage was — prominence, mr hancock, the position is that sage was the _ prominence, mr hancock, the position is that sage was the sole _ prominence, mr hancock, the position is that sage was the sole body- is that sage was the sole body providing _ is that sage was the sole body providing science _ is that sage was the sole body providing science on— is that sage was the sole body providing science on the - providing science on the characteristics - providing science on the characteristics of- providing science on the characteristics of the . providing science on the i characteristics of the virus, providing science on the - characteristics of the virus, what it amounted _ characteristics of the virus, what it amounted to, _ characteristics of the virus, what it amounted to, what _ characteristics of the virus, what it amounted to, what the - characteristics of the virus, what it amounted to, what the threati characteristics of the virus, what - it amounted to, what the threat was, what in _ it amounted to, what the threat was, what in theory — it amounted to, what the threat was, what in theory could _ it amounted to, what the threat was, what in theory could be _ it amounted to, what the threat was, what in theory could be done. - it amounted to, what the threat was, what in theory could be done. and i what in theory could be done. and the minutes— what in theory could be done. and the minutes from _ what in theory could be done. and the minutes from that _ what in theory could be done. and the minutes from that body - what in theory could be done. and the minutes from that body which| the minutes from that body which were _ the minutes from that body which were being — the minutes from that body which were being produced _ the minutes from that body which were being produced on - the minutes from that body which were being produced on a - the minutes from that body which were being produced on a tray- the minutes from that body which - were being produced on a tray weekly basis, _ were being produced on a tray weekly basis, were _ were being produced on a tray weekly basis, were not— were being produced on a tray weekly basis, were not you _ were being produced on a tray weekly basis, were not you say— were being produced on a tray weekly basis, were not you say being - were being produced on a tray weekly basis, were not you say being put- basis, were not you say being put before _ basis, were not you say being put before the — basis, were not you say being put before the secretary— basis, were not you say being put before the secretary of— basis, were not you say being put before the secretary of state - before the secretary of state responsible _ before the secretary of state responsible for— before the secretary of state responsible for public- before the secretary of state| responsible for public health. before the secretary of state - responsible for public health. holt responsible for public health. not in the first responsible for public health. in the first instance, until i responsible for public health.- in the first instance, until i asked for them. in the first instance, until i asked forthem. but in the first instance, until i asked for them. but also, the premise of your question is not correct. they were not the sole and only body. they had subcommittees, there was nervtag which reported formally into the department and there was a much wider body of publicly debated scientific device. sage was an important body, but i think it would be wrong to fetishise the existence and the role of sage. mas be wrong to fetishise the existence and the role of sage.— and the role of sage. was that another scientific _ and the role of sage. was that another scientific body - and the role of sage. was that i another scientific body concerned with emergencies— another scientific body concerned with emergencies for— another scientific body concerned with emergencies for the - another scientific body concerned with emergencies for the unitedi with emergencies for the united kingdom — with emergencies for the united kingdom government? - with emergencies for the united kingdom government? yes, - with emergencies for the united - kingdom government? yes, nervtag. nervtag _ kingdom government? yes, nervtag. nervtag was — kingdom government? yes, nervtag. nervtag was a — kingdom government? yes, nervtag. nervtag was a dhc_ kingdom government? yes, nervtag. nervtag was a dhc subcommittee - kingdom government? yes, nervtag. . nervtag was a dhc subcommittee which reported _ nervtag was a dhc subcommittee which reported on— nervtag was a dhc subcommittee which reported on new— nervtag was a dhc subcommittee which reported on new and _ nervtag was a dhc subcommittee which reported on new and emerging - nervtag was a dhc subcommittee which reported on new and emerging viral- reported on new and emerging viral threats, _ reported on new and emerging viral threats, an — reported on new and emerging viral threats, an advisory _ reported on new and emerging viral threats, an advisory group - reported on new and emerging viral| threats, an advisory group reporting to dhsc _ threats, an advisory group reporting to dhsc what — threats, an advisory group reporting to dhsc. what other— threats, an advisory group reporting to dhsc. what other scientific- to dhsc. what other scientific emergency— to dhsc. what other scientific emergency body _ to dhsc. what other scientific emergency body provided - to dhsc. what other scientific. emergency body provided advice to dhsc. what other scientific- emergency body provided advice to the united — emergency body provided advice to the united kingdom _ emergency body provided advice to the united kingdom government? i emergency body provided advice to i the united kingdom government? this i the united kingdom government? as i said, the united kingdom government? said, nervtag did to me the united kingdom government? i said, nervtag did to me through the united kingdom government? said, nervtag did to me throuthct, he was my rapporteur on nervtag and sage had a number of subcommittees. right. on the 18th of february, your witness _ right. on the 18th of february, your witness statement _ right. on the 18th of february, your witness statement records, - right. on the 18th of february, youri witness statement records, paragraph 194 committee — witness statement records, paragraph 194 committee were _ witness statement records, paragraph 194 committee were told _ witness statement records, paragraph 194 committee were told by _ witness statement records, paragraph 194 committee were told by public- 194 committee were told by public health _ 194 committee were told by public health england _ 194 committee were told by public health england the _ 194 committee were told by public health england the country's- health england the country's approach _ health england the country's approach to— health england the country's approach to tracing - health england the country's approach to tracing all - health england the country's. approach to tracing all contacts health england the country's- approach to tracing all contacts was unsustainable _ approach to tracing all contacts was unsustainable.— approach to tracing all contacts was unsustainable. yes. did _ approach to tracing all contacts was unsustainable. yes. did you - approach to tracing all contacts was unsustainable. yes. did you know. unsustainable. yes. did you know that by the _ unsustainable. yes. did you know that by the time _ unsustainable.“ did you know that by the time that _ unsustainable.“ did you know that by the time that you - unsustainable.“ did you know that by the time that you chairedi that by the time that you chaired the cobra — that by the time that you chaired the cobra on _ that by the time that you chaired the cobra on the _ that by the time that you chaired the cobra on the 18th _ that by the time that you chaired the cobra on the 18th of - that by the time that you chaired i the cobra on the 18th of february? i don't the cobra on the 18th of february? don't know. the cobra on the 18th of february? i don't know on _ the cobra on the 18th of february? i don't know. on page _ the cobra on the 18th of february? i don't know. on page seven - the cobra on the 18th of february? i don't know. on page seven of i the cobra on the 18th of february? i don't know. on page seven of cobra on those meetings, _ don't know. on page seven of cobra on those meetings, paragraph i don't know. on page seven of cobra on those meetings, paragraph 17, i don't know. on page seven of cobra i on those meetings, paragraph 17, the civil contingency— on those meetings, paragraph 17, the civil contingency secretariat _ on those meetings, paragraph 17, the civil contingency secretariat said i civil contingency secretariat said there _ civil contingency secretariat said there was — civil contingency secretariat said there was work— civil contingency secretariat said there was work to _ civil contingency secretariat said there was work to be _ civil contingency secretariat said there was work to be done i civil contingency secretariat said there was work to be done to i civil contingency secretariat said i there was work to be done to create a clear— there was work to be done to create a clear plan — there was work to be done to create a clear plan of— there was work to be done to create a clear plan of activity— there was work to be done to create a clear plan of activity across - there was work to be done to create a clear plan of activity across the i a clear plan of activity across the united _ a clear plan of activity across the united kingdom _ a clear plan of activity across the united kingdom government i a clear plan of activity across the i united kingdom government from the moment— united kingdom government from the moment a _ united kingdom government from the moment a sustained _ united kingdom government from the moment a sustained transmission i united kingdom government from the moment a sustained transmission to i moment a sustained transmission to its estimated — moment a sustained transmission to its estimated peak, _ moment a sustained transmission to its estimated peak, which— moment a sustained transmission to its estimated peak, which is- moment a sustained transmission to its estimated peak, which is likely. its estimated peak, which is likely to be _ its estimated peak, which is likely to be a _ its estimated peak, which is likely to be a period _ its estimated peak, which is likely to be a period of— its estimated peak, which is likely to be a period of three _ its estimated peak, which is likely to be a period of three months. i its estimated peak, which is likely- to be a period of three months. when you heard _ to be a period of three months. when you heard those — to be a period of three months. when you heard those words, _ to be a period of three months. when you heard those words, did _ to be a period of three months. when you heard those words, did you i you heard those words, did you understand _ you heard those words, did you understand the _ you heard those words, did you understand the director- you heard those words, did you understand the director of- you heard those words, did you understand the director of the i you heard those words, did you i understand the director of the civil contingency— understand the director of the civil contingency secretariat _ understand the director of the civil contingency secretariat was - contingency secretariat was referring _ contingency secretariat was referring to _ contingency secretariat was referring to a _ contingency secretariat was referring to a clear - contingency secretariat was referring to a clear plan - contingency secretariat was referring to a clear plan of i referring to a clear plan of activity _ referring to a clear plan of activity for _ referring to a clear plan of activity for control, - referring to a clear plan of . activity for control, infection controt— activity for control, infection control measures. _ activity for control, infection control measures. to - activity for control, infection control measures. to do - activity for control, infection i control measures. to do with activity for control, infection - control measures. to do with the subject— control measures. to do with the subject matter _ control measures. to do with the subject matter of— control measures. to do with the subject matter of what _ control measures. to do with the subject matter of what came - control measures. to do with the subject matter of what came the| subject matter of what came the 12th, _ subject matter of what came the 12th. 16th, — subject matter of what came the 12th,16th,23rd _ subject matter of what came the 12th, 16th, 23rd of— subject matter of what came the 12th, 16th, 23rd of march- subject matter of what came the - 12th, 16th, 23rd of march measures? no. ~ ., 12th, 16th, 23rd of march measures? no. . ., , ., 12th, 16th, 23rd of march measures? no. ~ . i. . ,, 12th, 16th, 23rd of march measures? no. ~ . .~ . ., 12th, 16th, 23rd of march measures? no.~ . . .,, . no. what did you take that to be a reference to? _ no. what did you take that to be a reference to? the _ no. what did you take that to be a reference to? the director- no. what did you take that to be a reference to? the director was - no. what did you take that to be a reference to? the director was a l reference to? the director was a stron: reference to? the director was a strong sunporter _ reference to? the director was a strong supporter of _ reference to? the director was a strong supporter of the - reference to? the director was a strong supporter of the 2011 - strong supporter of the 2011 approach. mr strong supporter of the 2011 approach-— strong supporter of the 2011 a- roach. ~ ., ~ , .,, strong supporter of the 2011 auroach. ~ ., , ., approach. mr hancock, please forgive me. she approach. mr hancock, please forgive me- she said — approach. mr hancock, please forgive me. she said there _ approach. mr hancock, please forgive me. she said there was _ approach. mr hancock, please forgive me. she said there was work- approach. mr hancock, please forgive me. she said there was work to - approach. mr hancock, please forgive me. she said there was work to be i me. she said there was work to be done _ me. she said there was work to be done to— me. she said there was work to be done to create _ me. she said there was work to be done to create a _ me. she said there was work to be done to create a clear _ me. she said there was work to be done to create a clear plan - me. she said there was work to be done to create a clear plan of - done to create a clear plan of activity — done to create a clear plan of activity. what _ done to create a clear plan of activity. what did _ done to create a clear plan of activity. what did you - done to create a clear plan of - activity. what did you understand, as the _ activity. what did you understand, as the chair— activity. what did you understand, as the chair of— activity. what did you understand, as the chair of that _ activity. what did you understand, as the chair of that committee, i activity. what did you understand, i as the chair of that committee, that to be _ as the chair of that committee, that to be a _ as the chair of that committee, that to be a reference _ as the chair of that committee, that to be a reference to? _ as the chair of that committee, that to be a reference to? just _ as the chair of that committee, that to be a reference to? just what - as the chair of that committee, that to be a reference to? just what is l to be a reference to? just what is it? ., ,., to be a reference to? just what is it? ., ., ., 4' to be a reference to? just what is it? ., ., ., ~ ., it? to the sort of work that was, for instance. _ it? to the sort of work that was, for instance, highlighted - it? to the sort of work that was, for instance, highlighted in - it? to the sort of work that was, for instance, highlighted in the i for instance, highlighted in the nimbus exercise. the activity proposed here is activity to prepare for a large—scale pandemic, essentially unmitigated. for a large-scale pandemic, essentially unmitigated. yourselves said nimbus — essentially unmitigated. yourselves said nimbus had _ essentially unmitigated. yourselves said nimbus had no _ essentially unmitigated. yourselves said nimbus had no reference - essentially unmitigated. yourselves said nimbus had no reference and i said nimbus had no reference and made _ said nimbus had no reference and made no — said nimbus had no reference and made no reference _ said nimbus had no reference and made no reference to _ said nimbus had no reference and made no reference to any- made no reference to any countermeasures - made no reference to any countermeasures at - made no reference to any countermeasures at all. i made no reference to any- countermeasures at all. that's right — countermeasures at all. that's right so — countermeasures at all. that's right so what _ countermeasures at all. that's right. so what was _ countermeasures at all. that's right. so what was that - countermeasures at all. that's right. so what was that a - countermeasures at all. that's - right. so what was that a reference to? 0r— right. so what was that a reference to? ., ., “ right. so what was that a reference to? ., ., ,, , ., right. so what was that a reference to? ., ., ,, i. ., to? or the other work you would need if ou to? or the other work you would need if you didn't — to? or the other work you would need if you didn't take _ to? or the other work you would need if you didn't take other _ if you didn't take other countermeasures, that was the position of cc s, as represented and articulated for instance in the 28th of every note to the prime minister, which was a note about how to manage the consequences of the pandemic, not how to stop it. shit the consequences of the pandemic, not how to stop it.— not how to stop it. all right. to aet our not how to stop it. all right. to get our bearings, _ not how to stop it. all right. to get our bearings, mr— not how to stop it. all right. to get our bearings, mr hancock, | not how to stop it. all right. to - get our bearings, mr hancock, there was half-term — get our bearings, mr hancock, there was half—term between _ get our bearings, mr hancock, there was half—term between friday- get our bearings, mr hancock, there was half—term between friday the i was half—term between friday the 14th of _ was half—term between friday the 14th of february _ was half—term between friday the 14th of february and _ was half—term between friday the 14th of february and monday- was half—term between friday the 14th of february and monday the i was half—term between friday the - 14th of february and monday the 24th of february _ 14th of february and monday the 24th of february by— 14th of february and monday the 24th of february. by and _ 14th of february and monday the 24th of february. by and large. _ 14th of february and monday the 24th of february. by and large. during - of february. by and large. during that half—term, _ of february. by and large. during that half—term, italy— of february. by and large. during that half—term, italy imposed - of february. by and large. during that half—term, italy imposed a l that half—term, italy imposed a tockdown — that half—term, italy imposed a tockdown on _ that half—term, italy imposed a lockdown on 11 _ that half—term, italy imposed a lockdown on 11 municipalities, i lockdown on 11 municipalities, reports — lockdown on 11 municipalities, reports were _ lockdown on 11 municipalities, reports were prepared - lockdown on 11 municipalities, reports were prepared on - lockdown on 11 municipalities, reports were prepared on the | reports were prepared on the significance _ reports were prepared on the significance of— reports were prepared on the significance of the _ reports were prepared on the significance of the corona - reports were prepared on the l significance of the corona viral outbreak~ _ significance of the corona viral outbreak. and _ significance of the corona viral outbreak. and although - significance of the corona viral outbreak. and although you i significance of the corona viral. outbreak. and although you have given _ outbreak. and although you have given evidence _ outbreak. and although you have given evidence to _ outbreak. and although you have given evidence to the _ outbreak. and although you have given evidence to the effect - outbreak. and although you have given evidence to the effect it. outbreak. and although you have. given evidence to the effect it may not have _ given evidence to the effect it may not have been— given evidence to the effect it may not have been drawn _ given evidence to the effect it may not have been drawn to _ given evidence to the effect it may not have been drawn to your - not have been drawn to your attention, _ not have been drawn to your attention, nervtag _ not have been drawn to your attention, nervtag happensi not have been drawn to your i attention, nervtag happens to not have been drawn to your - attention, nervtag happens to have reported _ attention, nervtag happens to have reported during _ attention, nervtag happens to have reported during that _ attention, nervtag happens to have reported during that time, - attention, nervtag happens to have reported during that time, the - attention, nervtag happens to have reported during that time, the 21st| reported during that time, the 21st of february— reported during that time, the 21st of february that _ reported during that time, the 21st of february that 40% _ reported during that time, the 21st of february that 40% of _ reported during that time, the 21st of february that 40% of viral - of february that 40% of viral togicatty _ of february that 40% of viral logically confirmed - of february that 40% of viral logically confirmed cases - of february that 40% of viral i logically confirmed cases were asymptomatic _ logically confirmed cases were asymptomatic. can— logically confirmed cases were asymptomatic. can you - logically confirmed cases were asymptomatic. can you assist| logically confirmed cases were i asymptomatic. can you assist the inquiry, _ asymptomatic. can you assist the inquiry, ptease, _ asymptomatic. can you assist the inquiry, please, with— asymptomatic. can you assist the inquiry, please, with what, - asymptomatic. can you assist the inquiry, please, with what, if- asymptomatic. can you assist the | inquiry, please, with what, if any, work— inquiry, please, with what, if any, work was — inquiry, please, with what, if any, work was done _ inquiry, please, with what, if any, work was done in _ inquiry, please, with what, if any, | work was done in countermeasures inquiry, please, with what, if any, - work was done in countermeasures for infection— work was done in countermeasures for infection control — work was done in countermeasures for infection control between _ work was done in countermeasures for infection control between the - work was done in countermeasures for infection control between the cobra i infection control between the cobra of the _ infection control between the cobra of the 18th — infection control between the cobra of the 18th of — infection control between the cobra of the 18th of february _ infection control between the cobra of the 18th of february and - infection control between the cobra of the 18th of february and i - infection control between the cobra of the 18th of february and i have i of the 18th of february and i have 'ust of the 18th of february and i have just shown — of the 18th of february and i have just shown you _ of the 18th of february and i have just shown you the _ of the 18th of february and i have just shown you the reference - of the 18th of february and i have just shown you the reference to i of the 18th of february and i have i just shown you the reference to the cc5, just shown you the reference to the ccs, and _ just shown you the reference to the ccs, and the — just shown you the reference to the ccs, and the 28th _ just shown you the reference to the ccs, and the 28th of— just shown you the reference to the ccs, and the 28th of february, - just shown you the reference to the i ccs, and the 28th of february, which is when _ ccs, and the 28th of february, which is when a _ ccs, and the 28th of february, which is when a paper— ccs, and the 28th of february, which is when a paperas_ ccs, and the 28th of february, which is when a paper as it— ccs, and the 28th of february, which is when a paper as it happens- ccs, and the 28th of february, which is when a paper as it happens was i is when a paper as it happens was prepared — is when a paper as it happens was prepared by— is when a paper as it happens was prepared by them, _ is when a paper as it happens was prepared by them, do _ is when a paper as it happens was prepared by them, do you - is when a paper as it happens was prepared by them, do you know. prepared by them, do you know whether— prepared by them, do you know whether any— prepared by them, do you know whether any work— prepared by them, do you know whether any work was - prepared by them, do you know whether any work was done - prepared by them, do you know. whether any work was done other prepared by them, do you know- whether any work was done other than in relation _ whether any work was done other than in relation to _ whether any work was done other than in relation to that _ whether any work was done other than in relation to that paper? _ whether any work was done other than in relation to that paper? yes, - in relation to that paper? yes, there was _ in relation to that paper? yes, there was scientific _ in relation to that paper? yes, there was scientific work - in relation to that paper?“ there was scientific work being in relation to that paper?_ there was scientific work being done by sage on the consideration of mpis. there was a note that was put together by sage which is dated the 26th of february that was considered at the 27th of every meeting by sage. at the 27th of every meeting by sane. ., ., . . sage. you referred to that earlier. do ou sage. you referred to that earlier. do you know _ sage. you referred to that earlier. do you know whether _ sage. you referred to that earlier. do you know whether or _ sage. you referred to that earlier. do you know whether or not - sage. you referred to that earlier. do you know whether or not penn| sage. you referred to that earlier. - do you know whether or not penn was put to _ do you know whether or not penn was put to paper _ do you know whether or not penn was put to paper in— do you know whether or not penn was put to paper in any— do you know whether or not penn was put to paper in any way— do you know whether or not penn was put to paper in any way by— put to paper in any way by government— put to paper in any way by government to _ put to paper in any way by government to set - put to paper in any way by government to set out - put to paper in any way by. government to set out even a put to paper in any way by- government to set out even a broad outtine _ government to set out even a broad outline of— government to set out even a broad outline of what _ government to set out even a broad outline of what practical— government to set out even a broad outline of what practical infection i outline of what practical infection control— outline of what practical infection control measures _ outline of what practical infection control measures might - outline of what practical infection control measures might be - outline of what practical infection i control measures might be required to be _ control measures might be required to be implemented? _ control measures might be required to be implemented? yes, _ control measures might be required to be implemented? yes, the - to be implemented? yes, the department— to be implemented? yes, the department was— to be implemented? yes, the department was drafting - to be implemented? yes, thej department was drafting what to be implemented? yes, the - department was drafting what became the action— department was drafting what became the action plan — department was drafting what became the action plan. there _ department was drafting what became the action plan. there is— department was drafting what became the action plan. there is a _ department was drafting what became the action plan. there is a genesis - the action plan. there is a genesis of that— the action plan. there is a genesis of that plan — the action plan. there is a genesis ofthat pian~ i'd _ the action plan. there is a genesis of that plan. i'd commissioned. i of that plan. i'd commissioned. forgive — of that plan. i'd commissioned. forgive me. _ of that plan. i'd commissioned. forgive me. i— of that plan. i'd commissioned. forgive me, iwill— of that plan. i'd commissioned. forgive me, i will come - of that plan. i'd commissioned. forgive me, i will come to- of that plan. i'd commissioned. forgive me, i will come to the. of that plan. i'd commissioned. - forgive me, i will come to the plan in a moment — forgive me, i will come to the plan in a moment. but— forgive me, i will come to the plan in a moment-— in a moment. but at this point, it was being — in a moment. but at this point, it was being drafted, _ in a moment. but at this point, it was being drafted, so _ in a moment. but at this point, it was being drafted, so yes. - in a moment. but at this point, it was being drafted, so yes. so - in a moment. but at this point, itj was being drafted, so yes. so the lan was being drafted, so yes. so the plan which _ was being drafted, so yes. so the plan which was — was being drafted, so yes. so the plan which was published - was being drafted, so yes. so the plan which was published on - was being drafted, so yes. so the plan which was published on the l was being drafted, so yes. so the i plan which was published on the 3rd of march _ plan which was published on the 3rd of march was — plan which was published on the 3rd of march was being _ plan which was published on the 3rd of march was being worked - plan which was published on the 3rd of march was being worked on. - plan which was published on the 3rd of march was being worked on. tind| of march was being worked on. and sa . e was of march was being worked on. sage was doing scientific of march was being worked on. and sage was doing scientific work, of march was being worked on.- sage was doing scientific work, yes. but there was no draft anywhere being _ but there was no draft anywhere being circulated _ but there was no draft anywhere being circulated amongst - but there was no draft anywherei being circulated amongst relevant bodies _ being circulated amongst relevant bodies between _ being circulated amongst relevant bodies between cobra _ being circulated amongst relevant bodies between cobra and - being circulated amongst relevant bodies between cobra and the - being circulated amongst relevantl bodies between cobra and the 18th being circulated amongst relevant- bodies between cobra and the 18th on the 28th— bodies between cobra and the 18th on the 28th of— bodies between cobra and the 18th on the 28th of february, _ bodies between cobra and the 18th on the 28th of february, when _ bodies between cobra and the 18th on the 28th of february, when they - the 28th of february, when they reported — the 28th of february, when they reported setting _ the 28th of february, when they reported setting out _ the 28th of february, when they reported setting out possible . reported setting out possible countermeasures. _ reported setting out possible countermeasures. the - reported setting out possible countermeasures.— reported setting out possible countermeasures. ., ~ . , , countermeasures. the work was being done on the — countermeasures. the work was being done on the action _ countermeasures. the work was being done on the action plan, _ countermeasures. the work was being done on the action plan, that - countermeasures. the work was being done on the action plan, that was - done on the action plan, that was the work going on in the department. and there was work being done within the sage structure, which came to the 26th of february paper. and furthermore, there was work being done by lawyers on the legal framework needed. the done by lawyers on the legal framework needed. . , framework needed. the pandemic bill, the corona bill— framework needed. the pandemic bill, the corona bill became _ framework needed. the pandemic bill, the corona bill became the _ framework needed. the pandemic bill, the corona bill became the act, - framework needed. the pandemic bill, the corona bill became the act, all - the corona bill became the act, all that _ the corona bill became the act, all that. �* . , , ., that. and the measures that we needed under _ that. and the measures that we needed under the _ that. and the measures that we needed under the public - that. and the measures that we needed under the public health | that. and the measures that we i needed under the public health act 1984, in order to have legal recourse for mandated quarantine. these are non—pharmaceutical interventions _ these are non-pharmaceutical interventions.— these are non-pharmaceutical interventions. , , . a ., interventions. yes, they are. as a matter of — interventions. yes, they are. as a matter of fact. — interventions. yes, they are. as a matter of fact, they _ interventions. yes, they are. as a matter of fact, they are. - interventions. yes, they are. as a matter of fact, they are. and - interventions. yes, they are. as a matter of fact, they are. and it i interventions. yes, they are. as a matter of fact, they are. and it is| matter of fact, they are. and it is very important i correct you on that point because of the inquiry comes to the wrong conclusion on that, it will be a mistake. communications are very important, non—pharmaceutical intervention. legislation is a very important non—pharmaceutical intervention because if you want to have for instance a stay at home measure, you can't have it in a mandatory sense without legislation. so i am emphatic on that point because you have made that mistake twice. 1 have made that mistake twice. i think we are going round in circles, ithink— think we are going round in circles, i think we _ think we are going round in circles, i think we were here this morning. 0n the _ i think we were here this morning. 0n the 28th— i think we were here this morning. 0n the 28th of february, a view was expressed _ 0n the 28th of february, a view was expressed by— 0n the 28th of february, a view was expressed by the _ 0n the 28th of february, a view was expressed by the prime _ 0n the 28th of february, a view was expressed by the prime minister- 0n the 28th of february, a view was . expressed by the prime minister when this (is _ expressed by the prime minister when this (is report — expressed by the prime minister when this ccs report was _ expressed by the prime minister when this ccs report was debated _ expressed by the prime minister when this ccs report was debated that - expressed by the prime minister when this ccs report was debated that the i this ccs report was debated that the biggest _ this ccs report was debated that the biggest damage _ this ccs report was debated that the biggest damage may— this ccs report was debated that the biggest damage may be _ this ccs report was debated that the biggest damage may be done - this ccs report was debated that the biggest damage may be done by- biggest damage may be done by overreaction. _ biggest damage may be done by overreaction.— biggest damage may be done by overreaction. yes. what was your response? _ overreaction. yes. what was your response? i— overreaction. yes. what was your response? i don't _ overreaction. yes. what was your response? i don't recall- overreaction. yes. what was your response? i don't recall being - overreaction. yes. what was your | response? i don't recall being told that that was his view of the paper. on the 28th of every, your statement records, _ on the 28th of every, your statement records, however, _ on the 28th of every, your statement records, however, that— on the 28th of every, your statement records, however, that your- on the 28th of every, your statement records, however, that your belief. records, however, that your belief that number— records, however, that your belief that number10 _ records, however, that your belief that number 10 was _ records, however, that your belief that number 10 was stopping - records, however, that your belief that number 10 was stopping the| that number 10 was stopping the prime _ that number 10 was stopping the prime minister— that number 10 was stopping the prime minister from _ that number 10 was stopping the prime minister from saying - that number 10 was stopping the . prime minister from saying publicly anything _ prime minister from saying publicly anything about _ prime minister from saying publicly anything about the _ prime minister from saying publicly anything about the virus. _ prime minister from saying publicly anything about the virus. yes. - anything about the virus. yes. sor . anything about the virus. yes. sorry- and _ anything about the virus. yes. sorry- and you _ anything about the virus. yes. sorry. and you knew- anything about the virus. yes. sorry. and you knew that - anything about the virus.“ sorry. and you knew that was anything about the virus._ sorry. and you knew that was because there _ sorry. and you knew that was because there was _ sorry. and you knew that was because there was a _ sorry. and you knew that was because there was a concern _ sorry. and you knew that was because there was a concern that _ sorry. and you knew that was because there was a concern that it _ sorry. and you knew that was because there was a concern that it would - sorry. and you knew that was because there was a concern that it would be i there was a concern that it would be seen to— there was a concern that it would be seen to be _ there was a concern that it would be seen to be overreacting. _ there was a concern that it would be seen to be overreacting. yes. - there was a concern that it would be seen to be overreacting.— seen to be overreacting. yes, the 28th of february _ seen to be overreacting. yes, the 28th of february was _ seen to be overreacting. yes, the 28th of february was an - seen to be overreacting. yes, the| 28th of february was an important day in the response. and it was important in this way. i had a readout from the sage on the 27th which both took the paper on mpis that we have just been talking about and also discussed the 1% ifr figure. the 1% ifr figure is very important because if you have a 1% fatality rate at an 80% of the population getting it, you end up with a reasonable worst—case scenario ofjust over half a million people dying. and ifound scenario ofjust over half a million people dying. and i found that out on the evening of the 27th, if i recall that correctly. on the 28th, i was still not being allowed to communicate in the way i want on this. not able to go on certain radio shows, including the today programme, which is a very important part of the national debate, and i phoned up the prime minister and i remember it very well because he didn't take the call and then he called me back and i was in a classroom in a primary school in suffolk, in my constituency, and i had to say to the kids, i am really sorry, the prime minister is calling, i have got to go. it was quite a moment. i came out and i said, prime minister, you need to check cobra and we need to be able to communicate properly, including on all of the programmes instead of having this political boycotts —— to chair a cobra. and that led to, i wanted a cobra that day. and i told him he should chair a cobra immediately. in the end, we had the cobra on the monday, which i think was the 2nd of march. over that weekend, i went out and communicated in public about all the things that we might have to do, we might have to close some schools we might have to close some schools we might have to shut down entire cities, i don't rule anything out, i said. and that all flowed from this phone call on the morning of the 28th of february. and i regard that as the moment that the centre of government, led by the prime minister, really started to come into action. and if i may say so, with hindsight, italy having locked down initially locally lombardi on the 2ist of january locked down initially locally lombardi on the 2ist ofjanuary and then nationally locked down around is also the 28th of february, if at that moment, having seen the sage assumptions which they didn't properly fully adopt, and you have heard from the scientist on that. at that moment, if we had realised that it was definitely coming in the reasonable worst—case scenario was as awful as it was, that is the moment that we should with hindsight have acted. and if we had had the doctrine that i proposed, which is as soon as you know you have got to lock down committee locked down as soon as possible, we would have got the lockdown done over that weekend and in on the 2nd of march, three weeks earlier before. there is a doubling rate estimated every three to four days, we would have been six doubling is ahead of where we were, which means that fewer than a tenth of the number of people would have died in the first wave. at the time, there was still enormous uncertainty. the number of cases was still very low. in fact, there were only 12 cases reported on the ist of march. so the cost of what i am just proposing were known and huge. sol defend the actions that were taken by the government at the time, knowing what we did. but with hindsight, that is the moment we should have done it, three weeks earlier and it would have saved many, many lives.— earlier and it would have saved many, many lives. monday the 2nd of march. many, many lives. monday the 2nd of march- that — many, many lives. monday the 2nd of march- that is — many, many lives. monday the 2nd of march. that is with _ many, many lives. monday the 2nd of march. that is with hindsight, - march. that is with hindsight, havinu march. that is with hindsight, having offices _ march. that is with hindsight, having offices thought - march. that is with hindsight, having offices thought about i march. that is with hindsight, i having offices thought about this and reflected on this, that is a huge —— a huge deal over the last few years. with hindsight, the moment we should have been, the moment, the first moment we realistically have really cracked it was on the 2nd of march, three weeks earlier than we did. mr was on the 2nd of march, three weeks earlier than we did.— earlier than we did. mr hancock, you have been heard _ earlier than we did. mr hancock, you have been heard loud _ earlier than we did. mr hancock, you have been heard loud and _ earlier than we did. mr hancock, you have been heard loud and clear. - earlier than we did. mr hancock, you have been heard loud and clear. at i have been heard loud and clear. at that meeting — have been heard loud and clear. at that meeting on _ have been heard loud and clear. at that meeting on cobra _ have been heard loud and clear. at that meeting on cobra the - have been heard loud and clear. at that meeting on cobra the 2nd - have been heard loud and clear. at that meeting on cobra the 2nd of. that meeting on cobra the 2nd of march, _ that meeting on cobra the 2nd of march, the — that meeting on cobra the 2nd of march, the chief— that meeting on cobra the 2nd of march, the chief medical- that meeting on cobra the 2nd of march, the chief medical officeri march, the chief medical officer said that — march, the chief medical officer said that intervention _ march, the chief medical officer said that intervention is- march, the chief medical officer said that intervention is to - march, the chief medical officerj said that intervention is to delay the spread — said that intervention is to delay the spread of— said that intervention is to delay the spread of the _ said that intervention is to delay the spread of the virus - said that intervention is to delay the spread of the virus must - said that intervention is to delay the spread of the virus must not said that intervention is to delay. the spread of the virus must not be implemented — the spread of the virus must not be implemented too— the spread of the virus must not be implemented too early. _ the spread of the virus must not be implemented too early. yes. - the spread of the virus must not be implemented too early. yes. it - the spread of the virus must not be implemented too early. yes. it is. implemented too early. yes. it is clear from _ implemented too early. yes. it is clear from cobra _ implemented too early. it is clear from cobra minutes implemented too early.“ it is clear from cobra minutes from i implemented too early.“ it is. clear from cobra minutes from the 4th of— clear from cobra minutes from the 4th of march— clear from cobra minutes from the 4th of march your _ clear from cobra minutes from the 4th of march your witness - clear from cobra minutes from the i 4th of march your witness statement, paragraph _ 4th of march your witness statement, paragraph 236. — 4th of march your witness statement, paragraph 236. to— 4th of march your witness statement, paragraph 236, to the _ 4th of march your witness statement, paragraph 236, to the effect - 4th of march your witness statement, paragraph 236, to the effect that - paragraph 236, to the effect that there _ paragraph 236, to the effect that there was— paragraph 236, to the effect that there was a — paragraph 236, to the effect that there was a real— paragraph 236, to the effect that there was a real debate - paragraph 236, to the effect that there was a real debate about. there was a real debate about whether— there was a real debate about whether the _ there was a real debate about whether the public— there was a real debate about whether the public might - there was a real debate about - whether the public might comply. your witness _ whether the public might comply. your witness statement _ whether the public might comply. your witness statement at - whether the public might comply. your witness statement at 269, i whether the public might comply. - your witness statement at 269, which is that— your witness statement at 269, which is that you _ your witness statement at 269, which is that you asked _ your witness statement at 269, which is that you asked by— your witness statement at 269, which is that you asked by people _ your witness statement at 269, which is that you asked by people outside i is that you asked by people outside government— is that you asked by people outside government why _ is that you asked by people outside government why the _ is that you asked by people outside government why the government i is that you asked by people outside i government why the government was not introducing — government why the government was not introducing restrictions— government why the government was not introducing restrictions sooner. not introducing restrictions sooner and she _ not introducing restrictions sooner and she responded _ not introducing restrictions sooner and she responded by— not introducing restrictions sooner and she responded by saying, - not introducing restrictions sooner. and she responded by saying, you've received _ and she responded by saying, you've received clinical— and she responded by saying, you've received clinical advice _ and she responded by saying, you've received clinical advice to _ and she responded by saying, you've received clinical advice to the - received clinical advice to the effect — received clinical advice to the effect the _ received clinical advice to the effect the government, - received clinical advice to the . effect the government, quotes, shoutd — effect the government, quotes, shoutd not— effect the government, quotes, should not go— effect the government, quotes, should not go too _ effect the government, quotes, should not go too soon. - effect the government, quotes, should not go too soon. and - effect the government, quotes, | should not go too soon. and you effect the government, quotes, - should not go too soon. and you also refer to _ should not go too soon. and you also refer to how — should not go too soon. and you also refer to how your _ should not go too soon. and you also refer to how your sense _ should not go too soon. and you also refer to how your sense was - should not go too soon. and you also refer to how your sense was that - should not go too soon. and you also refer to how your sense was that the | refer to how your sense was that the wider— refer to how your sense was that the wider world — refer to how your sense was that the wider world was _ refer to how your sense was that the wider world was moving _ refer to how your sense was that the wider world was moving faster- refer to how your sense was that the wider world was moving faster than. wider world was moving faster than the officiat— wider world was moving faster than the official advice _ wider world was moving faster than the official advice was _ wider world was moving faster than the official advice was being - the official advice was being received _ the official advice was being received. for— the official advice was being received. for how— the official advice was being received. for how long - the official advice was being received. for how long did i the official advice was being i received. for how long did this motion — received. for how long did this motion that— received. for how long did this motion that in _ received. for how long did this motion that in terms _ received. for how long did this motion that in terms of- received. for how long did this motion that in terms of the - motion that in terms of the application _ motion that in terms of the application of— motion that in terms of the - application of countermeasures, the country— application of countermeasures, the country should — application of countermeasures, the country should not _ application of countermeasures, the country should not go _ application of countermeasures, the country should not go to _ application of countermeasures, the country should not go to early, - country should not go to early, which — country should not go to early, which has _ country should not go to early, which has morphed _ country should not go to early, which has morphed itself- country should not go to early, which has morphed itself into i country should not go to early, j which has morphed itself into a debate — which has morphed itself into a debate about— which has morphed itself into a debate about behavioural - which has morphed itself into a . debate about behavioural fatigue, which has morphed itself into a - debate about behavioural fatigue, of course _ debate about behavioural fatigue, of course how— debate about behavioural fatigue, of course how tong _ debate about behavioural fatigue, of course. how long and _ debate about behavioural fatigue, of course. how long and to _ debate about behavioural fatigue, of| course. how long and to what extent do you _ course. how long and to what extent do you assess — course. how long and to what extent do you assess that _ course. how long and to what extent do you assess that that _ course. how long and to what extent do you assess that that debate - do you assess that that debate stowed — do you assess that that debate stowed down _ do you assess that that debate slowed down the _ do you assess that that debate slowed down the reaction - do you assess that that debate slowed down the reaction so i do you assess that that debate i slowed down the reaction so that do you assess that that debate - slowed down the reaction so that we found _ slowed down the reaction so that we found ourselves _ slowed down the reaction so that we found ourselves in _ slowed down the reaction so that we found ourselves in a _ slowed down the reaction so that we found ourselves in a position- slowed down the reaction so that we found ourselves in a position which i found ourselves in a position which you have _ found ourselves in a position which you have eloquently— found ourselves in a position which you have eloquently described, - found ourselves in a position which i you have eloquently described, which is not _ you have eloquently described, which is not going _ you have eloquently described, which is not going as — you have eloquently described, which is not going as early— you have eloquently described, which is not going as early as— you have eloquently described, which is not going as early as you _ you have eloquently described, which is not going as early as you now- is not going as early as you now with— is not going as early as you now with pounds— is not going as early as you now with pounds eight— is not going as early as you now with pounds eight assess - is not going as early as you now with pounds eight assess we . is not going as early as you now- with pounds eight assess we should have done? — with pounds eight assess we should have done? tatto— with pounds eight assess we should have done? ., ., have done? two weeks. -- now with hindsiaht. have done? two weeks. -- now with hindsight- you _ have done? two weeks. -- now with hindsight. you can _ have done? two weeks. -- now with hindsight. you can trace _ have done? two weeks. -- now with hindsight. you can trace it _ have done? two weeks. -- now with hindsight. you can trace it very - hindsight. you can trace it very clearly. take the 28th of february is the moment when it became clear that action was going to be needed. and the work was put together over that weekend, cobra and the second is, in the end. —— cobra on the second, in the end. the action plan finally published on the third. as it happens, the first was a sunday. i spoke on the andrew marr programme and when asked, will you lockdown whole cities?, i said we can't rule anything out. to show where society was up to in the broader debate when i said that you don't want to go too early, the response was, yes, we all think that. so this is notjust a government think of this as a whole of society question. —— government thing. and from that period, that weekend, the discussion was then went to go and not whether to go. so it switched from weather to go to when to go. and we held fire because we didn't know how long the public would put up with measures four and that was the clear scientific advice. and on the sir patrick vallance, and chris whitty were completely united, i don't recall any distinction between their views during this period. and on the 13th of march, we effectively came to a different view. i have had the chance to check because you questioned the phone call i made to the prime minister. it was at 3:34pm that afternoon, 3:24pm. i have checked my phone records which have come to light since. mr checked my phone records which have come to light since.— come to light since. mr hancock. you know perfectly _ come to light since. mr hancock. you know perfectly well _ come to light since. mr hancock. you know perfectly well that _ come to light since. mr hancock. you know perfectly well that we _ come to light since. mr hancock. you know perfectly well that we have - know perfectly well that we have scoured — know perfectly well that we have scoured every— know perfectly well that we have scoured every possible _ know perfectly well that we have scoured every possible source i know perfectly well that we have | scoured every possible source for documents — scoured every possible source for documents and _ scoured every possible source for documents and material - scoured every possible source for documents and material relevant| scoured every possible source for i documents and material relevant to the issues _ documents and material relevant to the issues in — documents and material relevant to the issues in this _ documents and material relevant to the issues in this inquiry. _ documents and material relevant to the issues in this inquiry. are - documents and material relevant to the issues in this inquiry. are you i the issues in this inquiry. are you saying _ the issues in this inquiry. are you saying that — the issues in this inquiry. are you saying that you _ the issues in this inquiry. are you saying that you have _ the issues in this inquiry. are you saying that you have a _ the issues in this inquiry. are you saying that you have a record - the issues in this inquiry. are you saying that you have a record of. the issues in this inquiry. are youj saying that you have a record of a phone _ saying that you have a record of a phone catt— saying that you have a record of a phone call which _ saying that you have a record of a phone call which you _ saying that you have a record of a phone call which you have - saying that you have a record of a phone call which you have not- phone call which you have not disclosed _ phone call which you have not disclosed to _ phone call which you have not disclosed to this _ phone call which you have not disclosed to this inquiry? - phone call which you have not disclosed to this inquiry? hmj phone call which you have not disclosed to this inquiry? no, there is onl a disclosed to this inquiry? no, there is only a record _ disclosed to this inquiry? no, there is only a record that _ disclosed to this inquiry? no, there is only a record that the _ disclosed to this inquiry? no, there is only a record that the phone - disclosed to this inquiry? no, there is only a record that the phone call| is only a record that the phone call took place. 50 is only a record that the phone call took place-— is only a record that the phone call took lace. ,, ., �* ,, ., . took place. so you don't know what ou said took place. so you don't know what you said in — took place. so you don't know what you said in that _ took place. so you don't know what you said in that phone _ took place. so you don't know what you said in that phone call. - took place. so you don't know what you said in that phone call. i - took place. so you don't know what you said in that phone call. i do. i you said in that phone call. i do. all right, — you said in that phone call. i do. all right, proceed. _ you said in that phone call. i do. all right, proceed. so _ you said in that phone call. i do. all right, proceed. so that - you said in that phone call. i do. all right, proceed. so that is- you said in that phone call. i do. all right, proceed. so that is onl all right, proceed. so that is on the evening of the 13 —— that is on the evening of the 13 —— that is on the 13th of the evening of the 13, i sent the e—mail i discussed earlier. on the 14th, we are in downing street and we have a series of meetings, including some in the cabinet room and some in the smaller office. and then on the 15th, we have the formal meeting, at which we decided to take action.— decided to take action. please come back to the issue _ decided to take action. please come back to the issue i _ decided to take action. please come back to the issue i a _ decided to take action. please come back to the issue i a stew _ decided to take action. please come back to the issue i a stew about, - back to the issue i a stew about, which _ back to the issue i a stew about, which is — back to the issue i a stew about, which is the _ back to the issue i a stew about, which is the concern _ back to the issue i a stew about, which is the concern going - back to the issue i a stew about, which is the concern going to - back to the issue i a stew about, i which is the concern going to early woutd _ which is the concern going to early would limit — which is the concern going to early would limit effectiveness. - which is the concern going to early would limit effectiveness. the - which is the concern going to early i would limit effectiveness. the cmo, and we _ would limit effectiveness. the cmo, and we must — would limit effectiveness. the cmo, and we must be _ would limit effectiveness. the cmo, and we must be clear— would limit effectiveness. the cmo, and we must be clear about - would limit effectiveness. the cmo, and we must be clear about this, - would limit effectiveness. the cmo, and we must be clear about this, ofi and we must be clear about this, of course _ and we must be clear about this, of course there — and we must be clear about this, of course there was _ and we must be clear about this, of course there was a _ and we must be clear about this, of course there was a society - and we must be clear about this, of course there was a society and - course there was a society and society— course there was a society and society to _ course there was a society and society to use _ course there was a society and society to use your _ course there was a society and society to use your phrase, - course there was a society and - society to use your phrase, concern about, _ society to use your phrase, concern about, shoutd — society to use your phrase, concern about, should we _ society to use your phrase, concern about, should we be _ society to use your phrase, concern about, should we be complicating i society to use your phrase, concern i about, should we be complicating the intoterabte~ _ about, should we be complicating the intoterabte~ -- — about, should we be complicating the intoterabte~ -- a— about, should we be complicating the intolerable. —— a whole _ about, should we be complicating the intolerable. —— a whole society. - intolerable. —— a whole society. shoutd — intolerable. —— a whole society. should they _ intolerable. —— a whole society. should they countenance - intolerable. —— a whole society. should they countenance these| should they countenance these extraordinary _ should they countenance these extraordinary pressures? - should they countenance these extraordinary pressures? with| extraordinary pressures? with enormous _ extraordinary pressures? with enormous cost. _ extraordinary pressures? with enormous cost. i— extraordinary pressures? with enormous cost. i have - extraordinary pressures? with enormous cost. i have a - extraordinary pressures? with enormous cost. i have a stewi extraordinary pressures? with - enormous cost. i have a stew about motion _ enormous cost. i have a stew about motion expressty _ enormous cost. i have a stew about motion expressly referred - enormous cost. i have a stew about motion expressly referred to - enormous cost. i have a stew about motion expressly referred to in - enormous cost. i have a stew about motion expressly referred to in the | motion expressly referred to in the cobra _ motion expressly referred to in the cobra meeting _ motion expressly referred to in the cobra meeting of— motion expressly referred to in the cobra meeting of the _ motion expressly referred to in the cobra meeting of the 2nd - motion expressly referred to in the cobra meeting of the 2nd of- motion expressly referred to in the cobra meeting of the 2nd of march| cobra meeting of the 2nd of march that interventions— cobra meeting of the 2nd of march that interventions to _ cobra meeting of the 2nd of march that interventions to delay- cobra meeting of the 2nd of march that interventions to delay the - that interventions to delay the spread — that interventions to delay the spread of— that interventions to delay the spread of the _ that interventions to delay the spread of the virus _ that interventions to delay the spread of the virus must - that interventions to delay the spread of the virus must not i that interventions to delay the i spread of the virus must not be prevented — spread of the virus must not be prevented too _ spread of the virus must not be prevented too early— spread of the virus must not be prevented too early in - spread of the virus must not be prevented too early in order - spread of the virus must not be prevented too early in order to| prevented too early in order to ensure — prevented too early in order to ensure maximum _ prevented too early in order to. ensure maximum effectiveness. prevented too early in order to - ensure maximum effectiveness. put aside _ ensure maximum effectiveness. put aside the _ ensure maximum effectiveness. put aside the whole _ ensure maximum effectiveness. put aside the whole society— ensure maximum effectiveness. put aside the whole society anxiety, - aside the whole society anxiety, your— aside the whole society anxiety, your witness _ aside the whole society anxiety, your witness statement - aside the whole society anxiety, your witness statement says - aside the whole society anxiety, | your witness statement says you retied — your witness statement says you retied to _ your witness statement says you retied to a — your witness statement says you relied to a particular _ your witness statement says you relied to a particular former- your witness statement says you i relied to a particular former prime minister— relied to a particular former prime minister who— relied to a particular former prime minister who asked _ relied to a particular former prime minister who asked you _ relied to a particular former prime minister who asked you why - relied to a particular former prime minister who asked you why we i relied to a particular former prime . minister who asked you why we were not going _ minister who asked you why we were not going to — minister who asked you why we were not going to early _ minister who asked you why we were not going to early that _ minister who asked you why we were not going to early that you _ minister who asked you why we were not going to early that you had - minister who asked you why we were not going to early that you had been| not going to early that you had been told on _ not going to early that you had been told on clinical— not going to early that you had been told on clinical advice, _ not going to early that you had been told on clinical advice, that - not going to early that you had been told on clinical advice, that is - told on clinical advice, that is your— told on clinical advice, that is your word, _ told on clinical advice, that is yourword, clinical— told on clinical advice, that is your word, clinical advice, . told on clinical advice, that is. your word, clinical advice, that told on clinical advice, that is - your word, clinical advice, that we should _ your word, clinical advice, that we should not— your word, clinical advice, that we should not implement _ your word, clinical advice, that we - should not implement countermeasures yet. should not implement countermeasures et. . you should not implement countermeasures yet. yes: you said — should not implement countermeasures yet. yes. you said it _ should not implement countermeasures yet. yes. you said it came _ should not implement countermeasures yet. yes. you said it came from - should not implement countermeasures yet. yes. you said it came from the - yet. yes. you said it came from the (mo. yet. yes. you said it came from the cmo- this — yet. yes. you said it came from the (mo. this clinical— yet.“ you said it came from the cmo. this clinical motion, - yet.“ you said it came from the cmo. this clinical motion, you - yet.“ you said it came from the cmo. this clinical motion, you are. cmo. this clinical motion, you are saying _ cmo. this clinical motion, you are saying that — cmo. this clinical motion, you are saying that lasted _ cmo. this clinical motion, you are saying that lasted for— cmo. this clinical motion, you are saying that lasted for two - cmo. this clinical motion, you are saying that lasted for two weeks. i saying that lasted for two weeks. correct — saying that lasted for two weeks. correct. �* ., , ., saying that lasted for two weeks. correct. . ., i. . ,, ,, correct. and do you assess, therefore. _ correct. and do you assess, therefore, that _ correct. and do you assess, therefore, that that - correct. and do you assess, therefore, that that was - correct. and do you assess, therefore, that that was a i correct. and do you assess, - therefore, that that was a major contributory— therefore, that that was a major contributory feature _ therefore, that that was a major contributory feature to - therefore, that that was a major contributory feature to the - contributory feature to the government _ contributory feature to the government not _ contributory feature to the government not acting - contributory feature to the - government not acting earlier? itritt�*iith government not acting earlier? with hindsiuht, government not acting earlier? with hindsight. yes- _ government not acting earlier? with hindsight. yes. at— government not acting earlier? hindsight, yes. at the time, was entirely understandable. shit hindsight, yes. at the time, was entirely understandable. all right. the action plan — entirely understandable. all right. the action plan if— entirely understandable. all right. the action plan if we _ entirely understandable. all right. the action plan if we could - entirely understandable. all right. the action plan if we could deal i the action plan if we could deal with this — the action plan if we could deal with this briefly— the action plan if we could deal with this briefly because - the action plan if we could deal with this briefly because you i the action plan if we could deal. with this briefly because you have referred _ with this briefly because you have referred to — with this briefly because you have referred to it _ with this briefly because you have referred to it in— with this briefly because you have referred to it in a _ with this briefly because you have referred to it in a number- with this briefly because you have referred to it in a number of- with this briefly because you have | referred to it in a number of ways. the action— referred to it in a number of ways. the action pian— referred to it in a number of ways. the action plan was _ referred to it in a number of ways. the action plan was dated - referred to it in a number of ways. the action plan was dated the - referred to it in a number of ways. the action plan was dated the 3rd| referred to it in a number of ways. i the action plan was dated the 3rd of march. _ the action plan was dated the 3rd of march. there — the action plan was dated the 3rd of march. there it _ the action plan was dated the 3rd of march, there it is, _ the action plan was dated the 3rd of march, there it is, thank— the action plan was dated the 3rd of march, there it is, thank you. - the action plan was dated the 3rd of| march, there it is, thank you. would you please _ march, there it is, thank you. would you please just — march, there it is, thank you. would you please just accept, _ march, there it is, thank you. would you please just accept, for— march, there it is, thank you. would you please just accept, for the - you please just accept, for the purposes— you please just accept, for the purposes of— you please just accept, for the purposes of speed, _ you please just accept, for the purposes of speed, that - you please just accept, for the purposes of speed, that it - you please just accept, for the purposes of speed, that it was you please just accept, for the i purposes of speed, that it was a document— purposes of speed, that it was a document fed _ purposes of speed, that it was a document fed across _ purposes of speed, that it was a document fed across the - purposes of speed, that it was a document fed across the united| document fed across the united kingdom. — document fed across the united kingdom. we _ document fed across the united kingdom, we can _ document fed across the united kingdom, we can see _ document fed across the united| kingdom, we can see references document fed across the united . kingdom, we can see references to the involvement _ kingdom, we can see references to the involvement of _ kingdom, we can see references to the involvement of the _ kingdom, we can see references to the involvement of the da. - kingdom, we can see references to the involvement of the da. we - kingdom, we can see references to. the involvement of the da. we know it was— the involvement of the da. we know it was commissioned _ the involvement of the da. we know it was commissioned by _ the involvement of the da. we know it was commissioned by you, - it was commissioned by you, according _ it was commissioned by you, according to _ it was commissioned by you, according to the _ it was commissioned by you, according to the evidence - it was commissioned by you, according to the evidence ofi it was commissioned by you, . according to the evidence of sir christopher— according to the evidence of sir christopher wormald _ according to the evidence of sir christopher wormald on - according to the evidence of sir christopher wormald on the . according to the evidence of sir. christopher wormald on the 10th according to the evidence of sir- christopher wormald on the 10th of february. _ christopher wormald on the 10th of february. you — christopher wormald on the 10th of february, you requested _ christopher wormald on the 10th of february, you requested in - christopher wormald on the 10th of february, you requested in an- christopher wormald on the 10th of i february, you requested in an e—mail to kevin— february, you requested in an e—mail to kevin dodds — february, you requested in an e—mail to kevin dodds that _ february, you requested in an e—mail to kevin dodds that the _ february, you requested in an e—mail to kevin dodds that the work- february, you requested in an e—mail to kevin dodds that the work be - to kevin dodds that the work be commenced. _ to kevin dodds that the work be commenced. it _ to kevin dodds that the work be commenced. it was _ to kevin dodds that the work be commenced. it was developed i to kevin dodds that the work be - commenced. it was developed under the leadership— commenced. it was developed under the leadership of— commenced. it was developed under the leadership of the _ commenced. it was developed under the leadership of the dhsc— commenced. it was developed under the leadership of the dhsc and - commenced. it was developed under the leadership of the dhsc and this i the leadership of the dhsc and this was the _ the leadership of the dhsc and this was the document _ the leadership of the dhsc and this was the document drafted - the leadership of the dhsc and this was the document drafted from - the leadership of the dhsc and this - was the document drafted from around about the _ was the document drafted from around about the 10th — was the document drafted from around about the 10th of— was the document drafted from around about the 10th of february— was the document drafted from around about the 10th of february to - was the document drafted from around about the 10th of february to the - about the 10th of february to the 3rd of— about the 10th of february to the 3rd of march. _ about the 10th of february to the 3rd of march. yes. _ about the 10th of february to the 3rd of march. yes. did _ about the 10th of february to the 3rd of march. yes. did the - 3rd of march. yes. did the government, _ 3rd of march. yes. did the government, did - 3rd of march. yes. did the government, did the - 3rd of march. yes. did the. government, did the dhsc, 3rd of march. yes. did the - government, did the dhsc, did you also have _ government, did the dhsc, did you also have christopher— government, did the dhsc, did you also have christopher wormald - government, did the dhsc, did you i also have christopher wormald ponder the wisdom _ also have christopher wormald ponder the wisdom of— also have christopher wormald ponder the wisdom of commissioning - also have christopher wormald ponder the wisdom of commissioning a - also have christopher wormald ponder the wisdom of commissioning a report| the wisdom of commissioning a report on the _ the wisdom of commissioning a report on the 10th _ the wisdom of commissioning a report on the 10th of — the wisdom of commissioning a report on the 10th of february _ the wisdom of commissioning a report on the 10th of february that _ the wisdom of commissioning a report on the 10th of february that by- the wisdom of commissioning a report on the 10th of february that by the - on the 10th of february that by the time it— on the 10th of february that by the time it had — on the 10th of february that by the time it had done _ on the 10th of february that by the time it had done the _ on the 10th of february that by the time it had done the rounds - on the 10th of february that by the time it had done the rounds of- time it had done the rounds of government— time it had done the rounds of government and _ time it had done the rounds of government and been - time it had done the rounds of. government and been redrafted time it had done the rounds of- government and been redrafted and reedited _ government and been redrafted and reedited and — government and been redrafted and reedited and so _ government and been redrafted and reedited and so on _ government and been redrafted and reedited and so on was _ government and been redrafted and reedited and so on was not - government and been redrafted and i reedited and so on was not published until the _ reedited and so on was not published until the 3rd — reedited and so on was not published until the 3rd of— reedited and so on was not published until the 3rd of march, _ reedited and so on was not published until the 3rd of march, by— reedited and so on was not published until the 3rd of march, by which - until the 3rd of march, by which time. _ until the 3rd of march, by which time. as— until the 3rd of march, by which time. as you _ until the 3rd of march, by which time, as you have _ until the 3rd of march, by which time, as you have accepted, - time, as you have accepted, containment _ time, as you have accepted, containment for— time, as you have accepted, containment for all- time, as you have accepted, containment for all practical| containment for all practical intents— containment for all practical intents and _ containment for all practical intents and purposes - containment for all practical intents and purposes had i containment for all practical i intents and purposes had been containment for all practical - intents and purposes had been lost? i initially— intents and purposes had been lost? i initially commissioned _ intents and purposes had been lost? i initially commissioned it _ intents and purposes had been lost? i initially commissioned it as - intents and purposes had been lost? i initially commissioned it as a - i initially commissioned it as a health action plan, i wanted to set out in public what the department needed to do. sometimes when you are trying to drive action in government, publishing something is one of the quickest ways of doing it because once it is published, everybody falls behind it. and then you don't have any arguments about what the plan should be. so publication is sometimes most important for the purposes of driving action within government. this has been criticised as being high—level and more of a commons plan. more accurately, i would say, of course it was about explaining to the public what might come next. and did a huge amount of explaining off the back of it. but it was also about telling the department and then in the end, it ended up as a cross—government document and a cross—government document and a cross uk document about what we might have to do. you cross uk document about what we might have to do.— might have to do. you say quite reasonable _ might have to do. you say quite reasonable that _ might have to do. you say quite reasonable that when _ might have to do. you say quite reasonable that when you - might have to do. you say quite reasonable that when you are i might have to do. you say quite - reasonable that when you are trying to drive _ reasonable that when you are trying to drive action — reasonable that when you are trying to drive action in _ reasonable that when you are trying to drive action in government, - to drive action in government, publishing _ to drive action in government, publishing something - to drive action in government, publishing something is - to drive action in government, publishing something is one . to drive action in government, | publishing something is one of to drive action in government, - publishing something is one of the quickest— publishing something is one of the quickest ways _ publishing something is one of the quickest ways of _ publishing something is one of the quickest ways of doing _ publishing something is one of the quickest ways of doing it. - quickest ways of doing it. sometimes. _ quickest ways of doing it. sometimes.— quickest ways of doing it. sometimes. ,, , ., sometimes. quite. on this occasion, in the face of — sometimes. quite. on this occasion, in the face of fast-moving _ sometimes. quite. on this occasion, i in the face of fast-moving pandemic, in the face of fast—moving pandemic, it took— in the face of fast—moving pandemic, it took 21_ in the face of fast—moving pandemic, it took 21 days — in the face of fast—moving pandemic, it took 21 days from _ in the face of fast—moving pandemic, it took 21 days from the _ it took 21 days from the commissioning - it took 21 days from the commissioning to- it took 21 days from the commissioning to the l it took 21 days from the _ commissioning to the publication. so it wasnt— commissioning to the publication. so it wasn't terribly— commissioning to the publication. so it wasn't terribly quick. _ commissioning to the publication. so it wasn't terribly quick. well, - commissioning to the publication. so it wasn't terribly quick.— it wasn't terribly quick. well, and the rand it wasn't terribly quick. well, and the grand scheme _ it wasn't terribly quick. well, and the grand scheme of— it wasn't terribly quick. well, and the grand scheme of government documents, that is unbelievably fast. they normally take months. the civil service team who worked on this were absolutely brilliant inside the dhsc. it was then slowed down when it was sent for clearance. and i think there has been some discussion of that. and that was deeply frustrating. but it was very, very important to get out, to drive action internally and also to start to explain to the public the sorts of absolutely extraordinary things might have to happen. it was the first time we communicated to the public that we might have to shut schools, close down entire cities and ask people to isolate at home. these are huge, unprecedented interventions and it was very important to start to communicate that for the public. i have not suggested that there wasn't — i have not suggested that there wasn't any— i have not suggested that there wasn't any merit _ i have not suggested that there wasn't any merit in _ i have not suggested that there wasn't any merit in the - i have not suggested that there i wasn't any merit in the document. i have not suggested that there - wasn't any merit in the document. i wasn't any merit in the document. [ wish wasn't any merit in the document. wish it had come out quicker. wasn't any merit in the document. i wish it had come out quicker. the l wish it had come out quicker. the document claims that the united kingdom — document claims that the united kingdom is— document claims that the united kingdom is well— document claims that the united kingdom is well prepared, - document claims that the united kingdom is well prepared, pagel document claims that the united i kingdom is well prepared, page ten in the _ kingdom is well prepared, page ten in the context— kingdom is well prepared, page ten in the context of— kingdom is well prepared, page ten in the context of the _ kingdom is well prepared, page ten in the context of the overarching. in the context of the overarching strategy. — in the context of the overarching strategy. you _ in the context of the overarching strategy. you wiii— in the context of the overarching strategy, you will recall, - in the context of the overarching strategy, you will recall, mr- strategy, you will recall, mr hancock. _

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