pressure pulls away. temperatures inland probably down to “4, minus five celsius, even lower in more rural spots. five celsius, even lower in more ruralspots. so five celsius, even lower in more rural spots. so a hard frost, a cold, crisp start to friday but lots of sunshine coming through. something just smidge less cold into the weekend. but we could see the chance of some rain and some snow into sunday. louise, thanks very much. that's it from the bbc news at ten. newsnight is getting under allegations of a toxic culture at a hospital that whistle—blowers claim led to numerous unnecessary deaths. police are investigating more than 100 complaints of wrongdoing. how could the system get it so wrong? a newsnight investigation reveals the failures at a big british hospital. it's a story of warnings going unheeded with dire consequences for patients. when you know you have an environment when you have deaths that you knew could happen and have happened, then i don't see why that is not something that should be a criminal offence. also tonight: the government's pledged to build 300,000 homes a year — the latest figures on how close they are to that came out today. as leaders meet in dubai for a stock—taking climate change summit, we'll have our assessment of how well the world is doing in the quest to cut emissions. good evening. for more than a year newsnight�*s nhs investigations unit has been examining the leadership of our country's health service. last year we reported allegations of a "mafia—like" culture at england's busiest nhs trust — university hospitals birmingham. three separate inquiries were launched as a result of this programme'sjournalism — with the findings leading to wholesale changes in culture and leadership at the trust. now newsnight has been investigating a second major nhs trust in england — and again has heard allegations of a "mafia—like" environment in which staff claim patients died unnecessarily or were maimed, with a culture of cover up. we begin tonight with a report with the findings of our latest investigation — this time into university hospitals sussex, where sussex police are investigating 105 claims of alleged medical negligence. here'sjoe. towering over this seaside city is a hospital. at almost 200 feet high, the royal sussex in brighton has survived fires, treated victims of an ira bomb and patients in the pandemic. now, a very different crisis looms over the wider nhs trust, with its seven hospitals and almost 20,000 staff. claims of warnings made and ignored, about safety measures and inexperienced surgeons, of patients dying when they didn't need to, others being maimed and throughout, a toxic culture of cover—up. one of the last things he said to me was, "i didn't want you to see me like this." he was still proud, you know what i mean? he didn't want me to see him looking so messed up and what have you, and he told me he loved me. simon chilcott has experience of the trust's apparent lack of transparency. his son, lewis, was just 22 when he had a seizure and ended up in hospital. he underwent a tracheostomy, a hole inserted in the front of his neck. the coroner found this led to a catastrophic haemorrhage requiring emergency heart surgery. about half 11 i got a phone call saying... it was a really long phone call and ijust knew the direction of that phone call and then, yeah, the fellow finally said it. "i'm really sorry, but lewis passed away on the operating table." so then, immediately, you know, our lives are shattered. while he believes some staff lied to him, simon chilcott is indebted to others. but he believes the trust tried to cover up potential errors. he was the one who first referred the case to the coroner. the trust failed to contact his family for ten weeks after lewis's death, although they later apologised. surgical staff were banned from speaking to him. the trust says this was a single mistake. and the serious incident report into lewis�* death had six drafts, partially due to significant errors and omissions. but what newsnight has discovered goes far beyond the trust's treatment of patients�* families. four whistle—blowers who worked in surgical departments told us of a toxic mafia—like culture where many were scared of speaking out. and that safety concerns were ignored. we've changed names and voices because all fear reprisals. patients, i believe, have died completely avoidably and some have died, in my view, negligently, and many, many more were harmed, seriously harmed, because of competency issues and because of training issues. this is real and sadly, most importantly, patients were not told, patients were not told the truth, that others in the department had raised concerns. and what sort of problems were raised? you can have, you know, a surgeon operating with mortalities that are two or three or four times the level you would expect, or complications. complication rates that are very severe, several times higher than you would expect. but the trust can always argue their way out of that. the trust argues mortality and outcomes data does not reflect the claims that patients died or were maimed. and how did all of this affect you? you become fearful and you just don't know what to do. you feel desperate, you feel despondent, you feel demoralised. absolutely demoralised, and you feel exhausted and you feel angry. if it was a country it would be an authoritarian state - with no accountability. the trust says there is no evidence of a toxic culture from the top down. what's the impact of this on patients? patients were effectively maimed, there are those who maybe had i the wrong operation, i they had complications that were life changing, - life altering in the sense that life was no longer the same. some needed more than one operation. some were psychologically troubled. some had to have an operation, for instance, which effectively. shortened their life. the trust says competence concerns are raised through the surgery management chain and support and supervision is provided. the picture painted by ourfour whistle—blowers is in stark contrast to how the trust was perceived by the outside world. hello and welcome to university hospitals sussex. my name is dame marianne griffiths and i'm the chief executive of the organisation. she was rated the nhs�*s top chief executive two years running. transforming her trust's fortunes, including the fastest improving hospital in the country. we have a clear mission and purpose, to provide excellent care to our patients every time. marianne griffiths was awarded an honorary degree, appointed a dame and praised byjeremy hunt, but did all of the trust's success come at a cost? since she retired last april the care quality commission has stripped brighton's royal sussex hospital of its outstanding rating. and this neurosurgeon warned marianne griffiths back in 2017, in herfirst months in thejob, that there had been problems in surgery departments for years. "dear ms griffiths, as the evidence shows, "the charges of serious "misconduct against these individuals include covering up "the death of a patient, the creation of an unsafe "environment for patients, fraudulent behaviour, "bearing false witness in court, "attempting to mislead a tribunal, to name but a few." one of the most horrifying cases he witnessed concerned a man with a bleed on the brain. he should have been treated within 48 hours but had to wait months. this poor gentleman died in august. completely and utterly unacceptable. mr akinwunmi won an unemployment tribunal against the trust for unfair dismissal, and beat their appeal. his grievances predate marianne griffiths�*s time at the top but he says the stress cost him his marriage and those responsible at the time should be held to account. what do you think the priority was? the priority was to cover up what i was saying and to ignore what i was saying and continue as normal. when you know you've got an environment that is not conducive to patient care and you have deaths on your hands that you knew about could happen and have happened, then i don't see why that is not something that shouldn't be a criminal offence. in 2019, afterjames akinwunmi raised concerns, surgical staff in one department wrote to a senior manager after the trust proposed changes to rotas and the recruitment of less experienced doctors. they said "consultants have expressed surprise and dismay "to hear that you have taken a decision that has a potential "adverse impact on clinical care, without consulting any "of the clinical leads or the consultant body." and in 2020 and urgent review from health education england said training doctors expressed concern at the apparent increase in death rates, reported feeling that patient safety was compromised, describing a specific incident where a locum consultant had performed an unnecessary operation which in their opinion had resulted in harm, and another in which a patient had received surgery on the wrong part of their bowel. trainee doctors said they would not want a family member operated on by some of the consultants in the department but that complications were inadequately discussed at morbidity and mortality meetings, due to the volume of complications. a serious incident was closed down without sufficient review. and all of these concerns were reported to the trust's medical director and chief executive. and many of the problems we've uncovered still seem to persist according to yet another source. a surgical team member who works at the trust has told us the management here is poor and their only concern is hitting targets and they say the way that some patients are currently being treated is dangerous and negligent. we asked the trust for an interview but no one was available but in a statement they told us their heartfelt sympathies go to lewis's family and friends for their tragic loss. they say the trust's primary concern is safe and effective care, that they had brought in a new leadership team in 2017 and had recruited more front line staff. "we now have a robust system in place for all "staff to raise concerns "with the knowledge that they will be heard," they added, pointing to numerous official reports which indicated the situation the trust had improved. for simon chilcott and his family the battle for answers has been bruising. how has it felt, watching your dad go through all of this? traumatising. because dad takes it all on his own shoulders and he will do anything to get those answers for lewis. we see him sometimes and we know it's all getting too much for him but he won't give up. i won't give up. he will not give up. i won't give up. if someone was to say to me tomorrow, give me your life and i'll give you the truth for lewis, i'd give you my life like that. a police investigation is now hanging over this trust. so far it involves 105 cases of alleged medical negligence and newsnight understands many of the patients affected, and relatives bereaved, still don't know that they're a part of it. that investigation was produced by sean clare and charlotte rowles and joe's here now. disturbing allegations, what happens next? it’s disturbing allegations, what happens next? 3 , , disturbing allegations, what happens next? _ ~ disturbing allegations, what happens next? i, ~ ., disturbing allegations, what happens next? �*, , , , ~' ., ., next? it's pretty striking that a olice next? it's pretty striking that a police investigation, _ next? it's pretty striking that a police investigation, operation| police investigation, operation bramber, is under way. they are looking at two departments, neurosurgery and general surgery. we know separately that there are 84 dental cases in relation to those departments and 21 in the second. this won't necessarily lead to prosecutions but the police say they are in the early stages of notifying patients and the family of patients who have passed away. the trust have pushed back on these whistle—blower claims saying that their data doesn't support the idea that people died unnecessarily and they've argued that the culture and outcomes at the trust have changed a lot over the last six years. police are looking at 2015—2021 including a number of years where new management was under way and we should point out that there are some significant similarities to other bits of newsnightjournalism in recent years and in those investigations there have been significant changes. thank ou. how to make housing more affordable? well, of late house prices have fallen a little and what with modest wage rises that will make bricks and mortar a little more affordable. but ultimately the real answer lies in increasing the supply. that's why the political battle has gravitated towards regulations — like the environmental and planning controls that constrain house—builders. so how is the government doing in its target to build 300,000 new homes a year? the latest figures were released earlier, here's ben with his analysis. what does the latest house—building data show and where are we in relation to the government's manifesto target? well, this shows net additional dwellings in england, so that's new buildings and conversions. the new figures show that there were 234,000, in 2022—23. that is unchanged from the previous year. and here is the government's manifesto target for this measure. 300,000 new dwellings a year by the middle of this decade. so we are currently missing it by around 66,000. but, the housing market has deteriorated further after the period where these figures end. here's some forecasts from the construction products association on what they think is likely to happen to house—building over the next two years, given the state the house—building industry and the overall market. so, a further decline in construction, leaving a final 120,000 gap, relative to the government's target. but is there any possibility of improvement? the chancellor, jeremy hunt, in the autumn statement announced measures to boost house—building including £32 million in additional funding for local governments to tackle planning backlogs. will it make a big difference? we don't anticipate it having a significant impact and the main reason for that is, if you look 12, 18 months ago, demand was very strong in the housing market, in the house—building sector. and supply was the key issue. so, planning was critical at that point, particularly for smaller house—builders. what we see now is that because of the increase in mortgage rates, demand is the key issue. that said, restrictions on supply have long been a constraint on house—building and the story of the nutrient neutrality regulations, ensuring that new developments don't add to local water pollution, illustrates the difficulties of making progress here. scrapping these environmental regulations has been one of the proposals from the house—building industry, to speed up construction. the government said over the summer that it would do it, while introducing new antipollution mitigations, but the labour party, despite itself wanting to massively increase house—building, opposed the change in the house of commons and it was blocked by peers in the house of lords. the government indicated it would bring forward entirely new legislation to get it through, but now it's apparently run out of time to do so in this parliament. whatever the rights or wrongs of the debate about nutrient neutrality, the episode does seem to symbolise a wider political system that really struggles when it comes to regulatory change to speed up house—building. it's a desired that often runs into very powerful local opposition to new housing. from a general point of view, whether it's labour or conservative, both parties, when they've been in power, have struggled with planning. both major parties, when they're in power, want more homes at a national level and fewer homes at a local level, to please voters. even if you have a new government come in which has a strong intention to build, it will struggle to deal with the planning issues that have been such a struggle over the last few years. there exists a political consensus on where we need to get to: considerably more homes. and indeed, how we are to get there: planning reform. but doing what's necessary politically to achieve it, that's been the obstacle and one that very much remains to be overcome. we're joined now by toby lloyd, who was the prime minister's special adviser on housing untiljuly 2019. and now a board member of generation rent. and also rosie pearson, co—founder of the community planning alliance. welcome. toby, lets start with this figure, ramping up was the plan to 300,000 homes a year this year. is it meaningful, that target, do you think? ., . ., , ,, _ think? not particularly. simply because we — think? not particularly. simply because we were _ think? not particularly. simply because we were never - think? not particularly. simply because we were never going i think? not particularly. simply. because we were never going to think? not particularly. simply - because we were never going to meet it and we haven't met anything like that target for many years. we have been setting different housing targets for decades and we never meet any of them. the key point is they haven't been building anywhere near enough homes for at least 40 years. exactly where you put the target really doesn't matter. rosie pearson, target really doesn't matter. rosie pearson. what _ target really doesn't matter. rosie pearson, what should _ target really doesn't matter. rosie pearson, what should we - target really doesn't matter. rosie pearson, what should we be - target really doesn't matter. rosie pearson, what should we be doing, then, if a fixation with numbers is leading us in the wrong direction, perhaps, in trying to analyse this, what should we be looking at? that’s what should we be looking at? that's exactl it, what should we be looking at? that's exactly it. isn't _ what should we be looking at? that's exactly it, isn't it? _ what should we be looking at? that's exactly it, isn't it? this— what should we be looking at? that's exactly it, isn't it? this supply - what should we be looking at? that's exactly it, isn't it? this supply of - exactly it, isn't it? this supply of session_ exactly it, isn't it? this supply of session and _ exactly it, isn't it? this supply of session and the whole interest of this piece — session and the whole interest of this piece showed the markets won't deliver_ this piece showed the markets won't deliver if— this piece showed the markets won't deliver if there has been no demand. there _ deliver if there has been no demand. there has— deliver if there has been no demand. there has been a lack of affordability for people. you cannot rely on _ affordability for people. you cannot rely on the — affordability for people. you cannot rely on the markets to deliver 300,000 _ rely on the markets to deliver 300,000 homes and as toby says that hasn't _ 300,000 homes and as toby says that hasn't happened. if we ever thought that was— hasn't happened. if we ever thought that was the target to hit, which i do believe — that was the target to hit, which i do believe it is personally, which i will come — do believe it is personally, which i will come back to, then social housing, _ will come back to, then social housing, truly affordable housing, is the _ housing, truly affordable housing, is the gap — housing, truly affordable housing, is the gap we aren't addressing. i think— is the gap we aren't addressing. i think everybody would agree that everybody is entitled to a safe roof over their — everybody is entitled to a safe roof over their heads. supply of session doesn't _ over their heads. supply of session doesn't achieve that. do over their heads. supply of session doesn't achieve that.— doesn't achieve that. do you share her oint doesn't achieve that. do you share her point about _ doesn't achieve that. do you share her point about social _ doesn't achieve that. do you share her point about social housing - doesn't achieve that. do you share her point about social housing and| her point about social housing and cheaper units?— her point about social housing and i cheaper units?_ because cheaper units? absolutely. because the rofit cheaper units? absolutely. because the profit motive _ cheaper units? absolutely. because the profit motive isn't _ cheaper units? absolutely. because the profit motive isn't the _ cheaper units? absolutely. because the profit motive isn't the same - cheaper units? absolutely. because the profit motive isn't the same for| the profit motive isn't the same for developers? the profit motive isn't the same for developers?— the profit motive isn't the same for developers? no, it is something we know from history, _ developers? no, it is something we know from history, when _ developers? no, it is something we know from history, when we - developers? no, it is something we know from history, when we built i know from history, when we built more homes it was because the state was building a lot of them. they didn't mean the private sector built less. in fact the opposite, they build more when councils were building more homes. when the state withdrew from housing supply and simultaneously withdrew from organising land supply for the private sector house building fell off a cliff and it basically has never recovered. we need the government to be doing more both on the social housing side and organise the social housing side and organise the land supply for the private side. ~ ., ,., the land supply for the private side. ~ ., ., the land supply for the private side. . ., ., the land supply for the private side. ~ ., ., . , side. what sort of things? will they have to drive _ side. what sort of things? will they have to drive through _ side. what sort of things? will they| have to drive through developments in parts of the country in order to get things going again? what in parts of the country in order to get things going again? what ben was talkin: about get things going again? what ben was talking about in _ get things going again? what ben was talking about in that _ get things going again? what ben was talking about in that package - get things going again? what ben was talking about in that package was - talking about in that package was about planning reform, but what do we mean by that? most of the time the conversations seem to be getting out of the way, tearing up red tape, letting the market get its way. that's never worked and it never will work. what we need is more planning, better planning, not less, we need estate to be organising land supply. actually saying where homes will go and notjust sitting back and waiting for the private sector to do it and then complaining when they don't do enough of it. rosie pearson, they don't do enough of it. rosie pearson. the _ they don't do enough of it. rosie pearson, the state _ they don't do enough of it. rosie pearson, the state organising . they don't do enough of it. rosie pearson, the state organising it. | pearson, the state organising it. now, you have been called queen of the nimbys, what is your response to the nimbys, what is your response to the idea of the state organising where the new developments should come and driving them through. i come and driving them through. i don't believe in driving anything through — don't believe in driving anything through. the rhetoric around calling local communities blockers, which we hear from _ local communities blockers, which we hear from the labour party, and calling _ hear from the labour party, and calling them nimbys is divisive and pointless — calling them nimbys is divisive and pointless. i think housing strategy should _ pointless. i think housing strategy should he — pointless. i think housing strategy should be set with communities. i think— should be set with communities. i think if— should be set with communities. i think if communities could see what was being _ think if communities could see what was being built was genuinely affordable for their children and their— affordable for their children and their grandchildren, and that it did deliver— their grandchildren, and that it did deliver on— their grandchildren, and that it did deliver on all of the things it should — deliver on all of the things it should deliver like solar panels on roofs, _ should deliver like solar panels on roofs, and — should deliver like solar panels on roofs, and regular bus services, good _ roofs, and regular bus services, good green _ roofs, and regular bus services, good green space, that sort of thing. — good green space, that sort of thing, then i think people would be much _ thing, then i think people would be much more — thing, then i think people would be much more accepting of what is built _ much more accepting of what is built at— much more accepting of what is built. at the moment what we are seeing _ built. at the moment what we are seeing is — built. at the moment what we are seeing is constant promises being broken. _ seeing is constant promises being broken, developer saying they will do such— broken, developer saying they will do such and such but it not actually occurring — do such and such but it not actually occurring. and this loophole which protects _ occurring. and this loophole which protects developers' profits. i don't — protects developers' profits. i don't know any industry that has its profits— don't know any industry that has its profits protected around 20%. then developers can say it isn't viable any more. — developers can say it isn't viable any more, we can't build affordable housing, _ any more, we can't build affordable housing, so— any more, we can't build affordable housing, so that loophole must be closed _ housing, so that loophole must be closed hde— housing, so that loophole must be closed. ~ . . , housing, so that loophole must be closed. ~ . ., , ., ., closed. we clearly cannot do it without house _ closed. we clearly cannot do it without house builders - closed. we clearly cannot do it without house builders and - without house builders and developers, as well, but do you think they've got too much about? in this national negotiation about how to get more housing. i this national negotiation about how to get more housing.— to get more housing. i think we've left too much _ to get more housing. i think we've left too much of _ to get more housing. i think we've left too much of the _ to get more housing. i think we've left too much of the responsibility| left too much of the responsibility on private developers who, as rosie says, are there to make a profit. they won't build so many homes, then the price comes down, then they lose money, it would be silly to expect them to do that. that's why we need them to do that. that's why we need the nonprofit side of the organisation to be to be more. if we want enough homes to be built and we want enough homes to be built and we want them to be affordable we cannot rely on the market alone to do it. we need the public sector to be stepping up and taking its responsibilities seriously. that does sometimes mean overriding local concerns. we need to make sure those homes are high—quality, rosie is right, making sure they are affordable and come with all the necessary structure. that also relies on the local community to do their bit. we have a political system to balance the national interest against local interest and that's why. in interest against local interest and that's wh . , ., that's why. in terms of where we end u - , that's why. in terms of where we end up. rosie. — that's why. in terms of where we end up. rosie. the _ that's why. in terms of where we end up, rosie, the home-building - up, rosie, the home—building federation has said they may soon only be building around 100,000 homes per year. wejust dismissed target at the start of this, but is that too low in your view? would you like to see things gearing up to a significantly higher figure than that? is that a failure? it significantly higher figure than that? is that a failure? it sounds like scaremongering _ that? is that a failure? it sounds like scaremongering if— that? is that a failure? it sounds like scaremongering if i'm - that? is that a failure? it sounds| like scaremongering if i'm honest because — like scaremongering if i'm honest because the system does allow planning — because the system does allow planning and there are lots of things— planning and there are lots of things developers could build. i think— things developers could build. i think it — things developers could build. i think it is — things developers could build. i think it is scaremongering. when it comes— think it is scaremongering. when it comes to _ think it is scaremongering. when it comes to the target, we need to come back to _ comes to the target, we need to come back to the _ comes to the target, we need to come back to the evidence. we need to say, _ back to the evidence. we need to say, what — back to the evidence. we need to say, what are we trying to achieve, what _ say, what are we trying to achieve, what houses — say, what are we trying to achieve, what houses do we need to build, for who, _ what houses do we need to build, for who, who _ what houses do we need to build, for who, who will develop them, and look at the _ who, who will develop them, and look at the latest _ who, who will develop them, and look at the latest figures. we need a proper— at the latest figures. we need a proper evidence—based conversation about— proper evidence—based conversation about the _ proper evidence—based conversation about the need and 300,000 will not be reached _ about the need and 300,000 will not be reached in the near future. gn be reached in the near future. on that be reached in the near future. that point, be reached in the near future. qt that point, and lastly, everybody be reached in the near future. q�*i that point, and lastly, everybody is looking forward to a new labour party government. they are talking about one point 5,000,005 years, which is 300,000 per yearforfive years. —— 1.5 million houses in five years. --1.5 million houses in five ears. ~ ., ~ ., ., years. we need to think of more imaginative _ years. we need to think of more imaginative mechanisms - years. we need to think of more imaginative mechanisms to - years. we need to think of more imaginative mechanisms to get l years. we need to think of more - imaginative mechanisms to get there and the signs are positive. some of the reforms that have come through under the current government and the levelling up act are really positive. i think what michael gove is trying to do is really positive, particularly the plans around cambridge. i also think what the labour party has said about not treating the green belt is asset present in all cases, but building new towns for the first time in 40 years, these are signs that the penny is beginning to drop finally. —— not treating the greenbelters. tomorrow sees the start of the 28th united nations' conference of the parties — or cop28 — in the united arab emirates. an oil giant and a climate conference might seem like an unlikely pairing, but after 2023 saw a string of temperature records smashed, campaigners are hoping that this year's event will see progress on a host of environmental issues. and will the conclusion of the five—year—long global stockta ke process help to spur nations into action? kate has more. wildfires in canada, deadly heat in china and brazil, and record low sea ice levels in antarctica, 2023 has been a year of extremes. it's on track to be the hottest year ever. this shows the gap between the global temperature and a long—term average tear—on—year. —— average year—on—year. 2023 is right at the top. this has been partly fuelled by the natural weather pattern el nino, but it will still be on the minds of politicians arriving in dubai for this year's international climate talks. this cop marks the end of the first ever global stocktake. the global stocktake is a stocktaking exercise that shows where the world stands with respect to the goals that have been set out in the paris agreement. so where are we with emissions? where are we in terms of reaching temperature of 1.5 degrees? and so countries are forced to react to that. the stocktake's final report came out a few months ago. it shows we've made some progress. pledges made in 2015 would have meant end—of—century temperatures up to 3.2 degrees above pre—industrial averages. by last year, commitments had gone further. they put us on course for a rise around 2.6 degrees. but to keep temperature rises to 1.5, emissions would need to fall like this. the stocktake is clear, there is a rapidly narrowing window to increase action if we want to meet the goals of the paris agreement. this conference is going to set out the political response to that scientific calculation. but the question is, will that landmark finding result in more ambitious pledges, ratcheting up commitments? some negotiators, including the eu, are going to cop with a specific phrase in mind. they want a pledge to "phase out", notjust "phase down" fossil fuels. so, i think phase out of fossil fuels is absolutely central because as long as we don't phase out fossil fuels the problem will get worse. getting agreement won't be easy. this cop is being hosted by a major oil producer, the united arab emirates, and leaked uae briefing documents mention opportunities to discuss oil deals with other nations at this conference. though the uae cop president denies using them. emirati academics are focused on green investment. do you think the uae would be willing to phase out fossil fuels? uae already started investing in renewable energy. we have projects related to the solar energy. we invested now in nuclear energy, and we are, i think, in the right direction. diversification is one thing, butjust last year, the uae state oil company announced plans to invest $150 billion to expand production. campaigners say the uae�*s position is giving cop 28 a credibility problem. some see another in rich nations opposing on environmental grounds countries who still want to industrialise. some countries in africa might have a need for a small, say, natural gas power plant to provide electricity to pull citizens out of desperate poverty. this investment would have no climate impact because these countries arejust, the baseline is so low they don't register in the kind of grand scheme of climate emissions. but we see pushback from rich countries, including countries like norway, whose entire, kind of, most of their revenues are from oil and gas exports. rose thinks the needs of less developed nations are often low on the agenda, partly because researchers from these areas are underrepresented in big international climate processes like the global stocktake. i definitely think that this absence of representation in these cop and pre—cop processes impacts the credibility of discussions. famously, in the eyes of environmentalists, there have been good cop's and bad cop's. time will tell how dubai will be remembered. welljoining me in the studio is climate scientist tamsin edwards. remotely from leeds we have climate change committee member nigel topping. and from dubai where cop28 is being held is environment professor, chukwumerjie okereke. thank you all forjoining us. tamsin, if we can start with you. i remember the keep 1.5 live slogan from glasgow. that measure of temperature increase in the world. where are we on that now? is itjust something that gets forgotten from one conference to the next? we are noticin: a one conference to the next? we are noticing a change _ one conference to the next? we are noticing a change in _ one conference to the next? we are noticing a change in language. - one conference to the next? we are noticing a change in language. we l noticing a change in language. we are seeing climate scientists, particularly the intergovernmental panel on climate change, the un bodies are saying there is a rapidly closing window. we are no longer saying, if we do this it'll be fine, it is really about that narrowing opportunity to keep to 1.5 degrees or perhaps an overshoot and come backis or perhaps an overshoot and come back is maybe what we are going to be looking at. we have to keep these things in mind. we've had the kind of global temperatures we are heading for under our current policies is way above that. lets brina in policies is way above that. lets bring in nigel- _ policies is way above that. lets bring in nigel. one _ policies is way above that. lets bring in nigel. one of the purposes of this was this stock—take that's been done in the run—up to the summit. now they are supposedly going to sit down and talk about what they are going to do about it. is there a hope of meaningful action, do you think, from this summit in the emirates? i think there's hope and the proof of the _ i think there's hope and the proof of the pudding will be in the eating _ of the pudding will be in the eating. the stock—taking will do two things. _ eating. the stock—taking will do two things, hopefully showing that we are well— things, hopefully showing that we are well off track which will increase _ are well off track which will increase collective urgency but also we are _ increase collective urgency but also we are making better progress in some _ we are making better progress in some areas and seeing exponential growth _ some areas and seeing exponential growth in _ some areas and seeing exponential growth in the deployment of renewable energy, electric vehicles, for instance, two big parts of the solution — for instance, two big parts of the solution and we hope that this cop is going _ solution and we hope that this cop is going to — solution and we hope that this cop is going to be featuring a commitment to travelling that renewable capacity in the world by 2030 _ renewable capacity in the world by 2030 if _ renewable capacity in the world by 2030. if we get that over the line, and similar— 2030. if we get that over the line, and similar commitments in other sectors, _ and similar commitments in other sectors, and a collective decision saving _ sectors, and a collective decision saying all— sectors, and a collective decision saying all countries will come up with their— saying all countries will come up with their next national plans in the next — with their next national plans in the next couple of years by cop 30 in brazil. _ the next couple of years by cop 30 in brazil, that match that level of urgency— in brazil, that match that level of urgency and ambition, it will be very— urgency and ambition, it will be very significant but we'll wait and see _ very significant but we'll wait and see. ., ., ,., i. very significant but we'll wait and see. ., ., i. ., very significant but we'll wait and see. ., ., ., see. you are there, so you at least have that advantage, _ see. you are there, so you at least have that advantage, but - see. you are there, so you at least have that advantage, but do - see. you are there, so you at least have that advantage, but do you i have that advantage, but do you think the summit is going to be another one where tensions between developed and developing worlds will emerge, i guess about burden sharing and who should do the most? mellie emerge, i guess about burden sharing and who should do the most?- and who should do the most? well, it is exected and who should do the most? well, it is exuected that _ and who should do the most? well, it is expected that the _ and who should do the most? well, it is expected that the tension - is expected that the tension will continue. — is expected that the tension will continue. not— is expected that the tension will continue, not least _ is expected that the tension will continue, not least because - is expected that the tension will. continue, not least because most is expected that the tension will - continue, not least because most of the developed — continue, not least because most of the developed countries _ continue, not least because most of the developed countries are - the developed countries are continuing _ the developed countries are continuing to, _ the developed countries are continuing to, in— the developed countries are continuing to, in my- the developed countries are continuing to, in my view, i the developed countries are - continuing to, in my view, seek to shift _ continuing to, in my view, seek to shift the _ continuing to, in my view, seek to shift the burden _ continuing to, in my view, seek to shift the burden of— continuing to, in my view, seek to shift the burden of action - continuing to, in my view, seek to shift the burden of action onto - continuing to, in my view, seek to. shift the burden of action onto poor countries _ shift the burden of action onto poor countries whilst _ shift the burden of action onto poor countries whilst still— shift the burden of action onto poor countries whilst still prevaricating l countries whilst still prevaricating or evading — countries whilst still prevaricating or evading their— countries whilst still prevaricating or evading their responsibility- countries whilst still prevaricatingj or evading their responsibility and action— or evading their responsibility and action that — or evading their responsibility and action that the _ or evading their responsibility and action that the poor— or evading their responsibility and action that the poor countries - or evading their responsibility and l action that the poor countries want to see _ action that the poor countries want to see for— action that the poor countries want to see. for example _ action that the poor countries want to see. for example in— action that the poor countries want to see. for example in the - to see. for example in the introduction _ to see. for example in the introduction we've - to see. for example in the introduction we've seen i to see. for example in the introduction we've seen a i to see. for example in the . introduction we've seen a lot to see. for example in the - introduction we've seen a lot of reference — introduction we've seen a lot of reference to _ introduction we've seen a lot of reference to the _ introduction we've seen a lot of reference to the uae, - introduction we've seen a lot of reference to the uae, as - introduction we've seen a lot of reference to the uae, as the i introduction we've seen a lot of . reference to the uae, as the host country _ reference to the uae, as the host country and — reference to the uae, as the host country and an— reference to the uae, as the host country and an oil— reference to the uae, as the host country and an oil producing - reference to the uae, as the host. country and an oil producing country but what _ country and an oil producing country but what could — country and an oil producing country but what could also _ country and an oil producing country but what could also have _ country and an oil producing country but what could also have been - country and an oil producing country but what could also have been said. but what could also have been said in the _ but what could also have been said in the introduction _ but what could also have been said in the introduction is _ but what could also have been said in the introduction is that - but what could also have been said in the introduction is that a - but what could also have been said| in the introduction is that a number of developed — in the introduction is that a number of developed countries _ in the introduction is that a number of developed countries are - in the introduction is that a number of developed countries are still- of developed countries are still committed _ of developed countries are still committed to— of developed countries are still committed to gas _ of developed countries are still committed to gas production. of developed countries are still. committed to gas production. in of developed countries are still- committed to gas production. in the uk, in _ committed to gas production. in the uk, in the _ committed to gas production. in the uk, inthe 32nd— committed to gas production. in the uk, in the 32nd round _ committed to gas production. in the uk, in the 32nd round of— committed to gas production. in the uk, in the 32nd round of licensing . uk, in the 32nd round of licensing in the _ uk, in the 32nd round of licensing in the licensing _ uk, in the 32nd round of licensing in the licensing in— uk, in the 32nd round of licensing in the licensing in the _ uk, in the 32nd round of licensing in the licensing in the north - uk, in the 32nd round of licensing in the licensing in the north sea l uk, in the 32nd round of licensing in the licensing in the north sea i| in the licensing in the north seal think— in the licensing in the north seal think about — in the licensing in the north seal think about 800 _ in the licensing in the north seal think about 800 licences - in the licensing in the north seal think about 800 licences were i think about 800 licences were issued — think about 800 licences were issued last— think about 800 licences were issued. last year— think about 800 licences were issued. last year the - think about 800 licences were issued. last yearthe number. think about 800 licences were i issued. last yearthe numberwas still around — issued. last yearthe numberwas still around 100 _ issued. last yearthe numberwas still around 100 licences - issued. last yearthe numberwas still around 100 licences and - issued. last year the number was. still around 100 licences and about 900 blocks— still around 100 licences and about 900 blocks of— still around 100 licences and about 900 blocks of gas. _ still around 100 licences and about 900 blocks of gas.— still around 100 licences and about 900 blocks of gas. sorry to “ump in. that is common * 900 blocks of gas. sorry to “ump in. that is common to h 900 blocks of gas. sorry to jump in. that is common to producers, - 900 blocks of gas. sorry to jump in. i that is common to producers, though, isn't it? isn't nigeria stepping up its liquid gas production? the business secretary and energy secretarv _ business secretary and energy secretary in _ business secretary and energy secretary in the _ business secretary and energy secretary in the uk _ business secretary and energy secretary in the uk made - business secretary and energy secretary in the uk made it. business secretary and energy. secretary in the uk made it clear that the — secretary in the uk made it clear that the uk— secretary in the uk made it clear that the uk was _ secretary in the uk made it clear that the uk was still— secretary in the uk made it clear that the uk was still committed. secretary in the uk made it clear. that the uk was still committed to maxing _ that the uk was still committed to maxing out, — that the uk was still committed to maxing out, tapping _ that the uk was still committed to maxing out, tapping out _ that the uk was still committed to maxing out, tapping out its - that the uk was still committed to maxing out, tapping out its oil- that the uk was still committed to| maxing out, tapping out its oil and a-s maxing out, tapping out its oil and gas in _ maxing out, tapping out its oil and gas in the — maxing out, tapping out its oil and gas in the north— maxing out, tapping out its oil and gas in the north sea. _ maxing out, tapping out its oil and gas in the north sea. now, - maxing out, tapping out its oil and gas in the north sea. now, when. gas in the north sea. now, when a country— gas in the north sea. now, when a country such — gas in the north sea. now, when a country such as _ gas in the north sea. now, when a country such as the _ gas in the north sea. now, when a country such as the uk _ gas in the north sea. now, when a country such as the uk is - gas in the north sea. now, when a country such as the uk is making i country such as the uk is making such— country such as the uk is making such a _ country such as the uk is making such a commitment _ country such as the uk is making such a commitment and - country such as the uk is making such a commitment and then - country such as the uk is making - such a commitment and then bringing pressure _ such a commitment and then bringing pressure to— such a commitment and then bringing pressure to bear— such a commitment and then bringing pressure to bear on _ such a commitment and then bringing pressure to bear on a _ such a commitment and then bringing pressure to bear on a country- such a commitment and then bringing pressure to bear on a country like - pressure to bear on a country like nigeria _ pressure to bear on a country like nigeria that — pressure to bear on a country like nigeria that has _ pressure to bear on a country like nigeria that has a _ pressure to bear on a country like nigeria that has a huge _ pressure to bear on a country like nigeria that has a huge amount. pressure to bear on a country like| nigeria that has a huge amount of energy— nigeria that has a huge amount of energy poverty. _ nigeria that has a huge amount of energy poverty. the _ nigeria that has a huge amoum of energy poverty, the total- nigeria that has a huge amount of energy poverty, the total amountl nigeria that has a huge amount of. energy poverty, the total amount of emissions _ energy poverty, the total amount of emissions is — energy poverty, the total amount of emissions is insignificant _ energy poverty, the total amount of emissions is insignificant comparedl emissions is insignificant compared to the _ emissions is insignificant compared to the uk_ emissions is insignificant compared to the uk we — emissions is insignificant compared to the uk we can _ emissions is insignificant compared to the uk we can begin— emissions is insignificant compared to the uk we can begin to - emissions is insignificant compared to the uk we can begin to see - emissions is insignificant compared to the uk we can begin to see why. to the uk we can begin to see why many— to the uk we can begin to see why many african countries _ to the uk we can begin to see why many african countries are - to the uk we can begin to see why many african countries are crying. many african countries are crying hypocrisy — many african countries are crying h ocris . many african countries are crying hypocrisy. 0k: i— many african countries are crying hypocrisy. 0k. ithink— many african countries are crying hypocrisy. ok. i think the - many african countries are crying hypocrisy. ok. i think the issue l many african countries are crying i hypocrisy. ok. i think the issue of burden hypocrisy.“ i think the issue of burden sharing _ hypocrisy.“ i think the issue of burden sharing is _ hypocrisy.“ i think the issue of burden sharing is still— hypocrisy.“ i think the issue of burden sharing is still going - hypocrisy.“ i think the issue of burden sharing is still going to - hypocrisy.“ i think the issue of burden sharing is still going to be| burden sharing is still going to be at c0p28~ — burden sharing is still going to be at cop28. ., , , ., , , ., at cop28. tamsin, is it a perpetual tension, at cop28. tamsin, is it a perpetual tension. do — at cop28. tamsin, is it a perpetual tension. do you — at cop28. tamsin, is it a perpetual tension, do you think, _ at cop28. tamsin, is it a perpetual tension, do you think, or— at cop28. tamsin, is it a perpetual tension, do you think, or are - at cop28. tamsin, is it a perpetual tension, do you think, or are there| tension, do you think, or are there better ways of soothing those forces? fin better ways of soothing those forces? . , better ways of soothing those forces? ., , ., forces? on the way here the taxi driver said _ forces? on the way here the taxi driver said that _ forces? on the way here the taxi driver said that we _ forces? on the way here the taxi driver said that we seem - forces? on the way here the taxi driver said that we seem to - forces? on the way here the taxi driver said that we seem to be i forces? on the way here the taxi - driver said that we seem to be going around in circles and that we don't like change. there are complex trade—offs around the world, whether it's the action we take, we don't want to make people's lives worse if we are trying to reduce carbon, but we've got to try and keep our eyes on the price and keep trying to work out the trade—offs to have a more equal world, to design a world we want rather than falling into it by accident without thinking about it. i think that's the real goal of trying to work together across different disciplines and countries, across different points of view, to make solutions for the planet that work for everyone, not a select few. in terms of maintaining forward momentum, nigel, do you see signs of a change, maybe since the last conference, certainly since glasgow, in developing countries, pushing against political limits, for example, with the ultra low emissions zone in the uk? it is a clean—air measure i know but with governments in a sense stepping back from some of their competence? == from some of their competence? -- from some of their competence? —— from some of their competence? —— from some of their commitments? there _ from some of their commitments? there are — from some of their commitments? there are some signs, but the transition _ there are some signs, but the transition to renewable energy, heat pumps, _ transition to renewable energy, heat pumps, in _ transition to renewable energy, heat pumps, in developing countries are happening — pumps, in developing countries are happening faster and faster and the faster— happening faster and faster and the faster they happen, the more the costs— faster they happen, the more the costs come down. i was in cambridge where _ costs come down. i was in cambridge where they— costs come down. i was in cambridge where they have put solar panels on king's_ where they have put solar panels on king's college chapel, breaking a taboo— king's college chapel, breaking a taboo about putting panels on old buildings. as the cost of heat pumps comes— buildings. as the cost of heat pumps comes down, they will become cheaper~ — comes down, they will become cheaper. we have to get the distribution impacts right and not impose _ distribution impacts right and not impose high costs on low income families — impose high costs on low income families. similarto impose high costs on low income families. similar to the impose high costs on low income families. similarto the point impose high costs on low income families. similar to the point we heard _ families. similar to the point we heard earlier, we must look at distribution impacts globally. that's— distribution impacts globally. that's where the real political tension — that's where the real political tension is _ that's where the real political tension is because every politician has to— tension is because every politician has to make a domestic argument about— has to make a domestic argument about international engagement. even someone _ about international engagement. even someone like john currie in the states— someone like john currie in the states who would like to do more, he is hamstrung by us politics which means— is hamstrung by us politics which means the us isn't living up to its commitments on international climate financing _ commitments on international climate financing for instance —— john kerry — financing for instance —— john kerry in _ financing for instance —— john kerry. in london yesterday, we have a lot of— kerry. in london yesterday, we have a lot of electric vehicles, and the air quality— a lot of electric vehicles, and the air quality is improving and that's air quality is improving and that's a iegai— air quality is improving and that's a legal requirement.— a legal requirement. what's your attitude, now, _ a legal requirement. what's your attitude, now, what _ a legal requirement. what's your attitude, now, what with - a legal requirement. what's your attitude, now, what with the - attitude, now, what with the attitude, now, what with the attitude be to china in the conference? china has been painted by some western countries as a country that is churning out coal—fired power stations but it's also the country that we hear has installed more solar power this year than the rest of the world put together or america in its entire history. together or america in its entire histo . , together or america in its entire histo . y~ together or america in its entire histo . f , history. many african countries, artl history. many african countries, partly down _ history. many african countries, partly down to _ history. many african countries, partly down to my _ history. many african countries, partly down to my voice - history. many african countries, partly down to my voice and - history. many african countries, - partly down to my voice and urging, have set _ partly down to my voice and urging, have set ambitious _ partly down to my voice and urging, have set ambitious targets - partly down to my voice and urging, have set ambitious targets but - have set ambitious targets but increasing _ have set ambitious targets but increasing access _ have set ambitious targets but increasing access to _ have set ambitious targets but increasing access to energy . have set ambitious targets but increasing access to energy to| have set ambitious targets but - increasing access to energy to deal with the _ increasing access to energy to deal with the issue _ increasing access to energy to deal with the issue of _ increasing access to energy to deal with the issue of energy— increasing access to energy to deal with the issue of energy poverty. i with the issue of energy poverty. so, with the issue of energy poverty. so. as— with the issue of energy poverty. so. as nigei— with the issue of energy poverty. so, as nigel was— with the issue of energy poverty. so, as nigel was saying, - with the issue of energy poverty. so, as nigel was saying, we - with the issue of energy poverty. | so, as nigel was saying, we have with the issue of energy poverty. i so, as nigel was saying, we have a set of— so, as nigel was saying, we have a set of compiex _ so, as nigel was saying, we have a set of complex international- so, as nigel was saying, we have a set of complex international at - set of complex international at national— set of complex international at national situations. _ set of complex international at national situations. china - set of complex international at national situations. china is. national situations. china is loading _ national situations. china is loading the _ national situations. china is leading the world _ national situations. china is leading the world in - national situations. china is leading the world in the - national situations. china is- leading the world in the production of renewable — leading the world in the production of renewable energy— leading the world in the production of renewable energy but _ leading the world in the production of renewable energy but invest - of renewable energy but invest massively _ of renewable energy but invest massively in _ of renewable energy but invest massively in fossil— of renewable energy but invest massively in fossil fuel - of renewable energy but invest massively in fossil fuel and - of renewable energy but investj massively in fossil fuel and will argue _ massively in fossil fuel and will argue that _ massively in fossil fuel and will argue that it— massively in fossil fuel and will argue that it is— massively in fossil fuel and will argue that it is in— massively in fossil fuel and will argue that it is in the _ massively in fossil fuel and will argue that it is in the interestsl massively in fossil fuel and will i argue that it is in the interests of their— argue that it is in the interests of their economic— argue that it is in the interests of their economic and _ argue that it is in the interests of their economic and domestic- their economic and domestic development _ their economic and domestic development. what- their economic and domestic development. what we - their economic and domestic development. what we need their economic and domestic. development. what we need to their economic and domestic- development. what we need to do is to come _ development. what we need to do is to come together, _ development. what we need to do is to come together, as _ development. what we need to do is to come together, as nigel- development. what we need to do is to come together, as nigel said, - development. what we need to do is to come together, as nigel said, we| to come together, as nigel said, we all need _ to come together, as nigel said, we all need to— to come together, as nigel said, we all need to make _ to come together, as nigel said, we all need to make sacrifices - to come together, as nigel said, we all need to make sacrifices but - to come together, as nigel said, we all need to make sacrifices but as i. all need to make sacrifices but as i said. _ all need to make sacrifices but as i said. the _ all need to make sacrifices but as i said. the big — all need to make sacrifices but as i said, the big challenge _ all need to make sacrifices but as i said, the big challenge i— all need to make sacrifices but as i said, the big challenge i see - all need to make sacrifices but as i said, the big challenge i see from. said, the big challenge i see from the equity— said, the big challenge i see from the equity and _ said, the big challenge i see from the equity and fairness _ said, the big challenge i see from. the equity and fairness perspective is that— the equity and fairness perspective is that poor— the equity and fairness perspective is that poor countries _ the equity and fairness perspective is that poor countries don't - the equity and fairness perspective is that poor countries don't feel- is that poor countries don't feel they— is that poor countries don't feel they are — is that poor countries don't feel theyare being— is that poor countries don't feel they are being heard _ is that poor countries don't feel they are being heard and - is that poor countries don't feel. they are being heard and getting a fair deai~ — they are being heard and getting a fair deal. . . they are being heard and getting a fair deal. ., , ., ., ., , fair deal. last word from tamsin. this brings _ fair deal. last word from tamsin. this brings out _

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