to so—called no regret messages which _ to so—called no regret messages which you — to so—called no regret messages which you are pretty sure we'll be good _ which you are pretty sure we'll be good things and generally do no harm almost _ good things and generally do no harm almost for— good things and generally do no harm almost for sure. so hand washing became _ almost for sure. so hand washing became very rapidly, even by the time _ became very rapidly, even by the time we — became very rapidly, even by the time we were engaged, highlighted as an obvious _ time we were engaged, highlighted as an obvious thing to try and slow transmission. so yes, that would be an example — transmission. so yes, that would be an example of a no regret. it is hard _ an example of a no regret. it is hard to— an example of a no regret. it is hard to think of examples of washing your hands— hard to think of examples of washing your hands doing much harm. no,| your hands doing much harm. no, i cannot think _ your hands doing much harm. no, i cannot think of _ your hands doing much harm. no, i cannot think of one. _ your hands doing much harm. no, i cannot think of one. but _ your hands doing much harm. no, i cannot think of one. but in - your hands doing much harm. iirr, i cannot think of one. but in relation to that hand washing, that was a considerable amount of your work, the organisation's work, during the early days of february into march. is that in those early days, yes, that— is that in those early days, yes, that is— is that in those early days, yes, that is correct. and maybe it is an illustration — that is correct. and maybe it is an illustration of the work that we could _ illustration of the work that we could do— illustration of the work that we could do in my team and many of you would _ could do in my team and many of you would have _ could do in my team and many of you would have seen the posters. the green _ would have seen the posters. the green posters with the hand. it is still up _ green posters with the hand. it is still up across britain. if you think— still up across britain. if you think about your challenge, someone will think about your challenge, someone witt think— think about your challenge, someone will think about that for a few seconds — will think about that for a few seconds and the question is, how can you get— seconds and the question is, how can you get as _ seconds and the question is, how can you get as much information across as possible — you get as much information across as possible in that poster? you wouldn't — as possible in that poster? you wouldn't dwell on it, but what we would _ wouldn't dwell on it, but what we would do — wouldn't dwell on it, but what we would do is — wouldn't dwell on it, but what we would do is we would literally test and we _ would do is we would literally test and we did test variations in posters— and we did test variations in posters and messages with thousands of people _ posters and messages with thousands of people and say, you see it for a few seconds— of people and say, you see it for a few seconds in the real world, what does it— few seconds in the real world, what does it say? — few seconds in the real world, what does it say? can you remember? if you can't— does it say? can you remember? if you can't remember five seconds latei’. _ you can't remember five seconds later. it — you can't remember five seconds later. it is — you can't remember five seconds later, it is not likely to be effective. would you intend to do that? _ effective. would you intend to do that? would you wash your hands? we were test— that? would you wash your hands? we were test that and essentially, by testing _ were test that and essentially, by testing variations, you can tune and improve _ testing variations, you can tune and improve it — testing variations, you can tune and improve it. so the final one most people _ improve it. so the final one most people would have seen had gone through— people would have seen had gone through and you have it in the evidence. _ through and you have it in the evidence, a number of iterations which _ evidence, a number of iterations which would increase public comprehension. a trivial example if you looked — comprehension. a trivial example if you looked at it, the message gets simpler— you looked at it, the message gets simpler and the words get bigger, some _ simpler and the words get bigger, some of— simpler and the words get bigger, some of the confusion disappears. do you need _ some of the confusion disappears. do you need the nhs brand or is itjust distracting — you need the nhs brand or is itjust distracting you? the early images were _ distracting you? the early images were quite — distracting you? the early images were quite confusing. what was it? it were quite confusing. what was it? it was _ were quite confusing. what was it? it was hands on a rail. | were quite confusing. what was it? it was hands on a rail. i am conscious _ it was hands on a rail. i am conscious it _ it was hands on a rail. i am conscious it is _ it was hands on a rail. i am conscious it is the - it was hands on a rail. i am conscious it is the product | it was hands on a rail. i am | conscious it is the product of it was hands on a rail. i am i conscious it is the product of a huge amount of work you have done and it is an illustration, is it not, that evidence—based decision—making takes time and a number of iterations to perfect the message? it number of iterations to perfect the messa . e? ., , number of iterations to perfect the messaue? ., , ., ,, message? it does take time. although not as much — message? it does take time. although not as much time _ message? it does take time. although not as much time as _ message? it does take time. although not as much time as you _ message? it does take time. although not as much time as you think. - message? it does take time. although not as much time as you think. those l not as much time as you think. those things— not as much time as you think. those things were _ not as much time as you think. those things were assembled with experiments with thousands of people over days. _ experiments with thousands of people over days, not weeks or months. and it is a _ over days, not weeks or months. and it is a key— over days, not weeks or months. and it is a key question in our view about. — it is a key question in our view about, there are lots of these practical— about, there are lots of these practical issues which are critical to affect — practical issues which are critical to affect policy or delivery which actually. — to affect policy or delivery which actually, you need to handle and that empirical way. in actually, you need to handle and that empirical way.— that empirical way. in relation to our that empirical way. in relation to your involvement, _ that empirical way. in relation to your involvement, we _ that empirical way. in relation to your involvement, we can - that empirical way. in relation to your involvement, we can put i that empirical way. in relation to i your involvement, we can put hand washing to one side, that work was still ongoing. but your involvement expanded and you are in touch with professor british on the 18th of february asking the questions you alluded to already in relation to covid transmission mechanism. very briefly, what was your understanding of covid transmission at that stage on the 18th of february? iunis of covid transmission at that stage on the 18th of february? chris very generously — on the 18th of february? chris very generously helped _ on the 18th of february? chris very generously helped us _ on the 18th of february? chris very generously helped us and - on the 18th of february? chris very generously helped us and we i on the 18th of february? chris very generously helped us and we had l on the 18th of february? chris very i generously helped us and we had that early briefing particularly to understand what was the transmission mechanism? it might seem trivial. if you think— mechanism? it might seem trivial. if you think for — mechanism? it might seem trivial. if you think for example it is airborne and it— you think for example it is airborne and it may— you think for example it is airborne and it may be different to when you cough. _ and it may be different to when you cough. it _ and it may be different to when you cough. it is— and it may be different to when you cough, it is on the surface. right? if cough, it is on the surface. right? if you _ cough, it is on the surface. right? if you think— cough, it is on the surface. right? if you think it is on the surface, you will— if you think it is on the surface, you will spend a lot of time cleaning _ you will spend a lot of time cleaning services and if you think it is in— cleaning services and if you think it is in the — cleaning services and if you think it is in the air, it is a different strategy _ it is in the air, it is a different strategy. he took us through what was understood about the virus and his understanding of those transmission mechanisms. and therefore. _ transmission mechanisms. and therefore, to help us work out what with the _ therefore, to help us work out what with the points behaviourally that you might be able to introduce to reinforce — you might be able to introduce to reinforce and support people to slow down _ reinforce and support people to slow down the _ reinforce and support people to slow down the spread of the virus? and movin: down the spread of the virus? and moving on — down the spread of the virus? and moving on to _ down the spread of the virus? fific moving on to the 20th of february. meeting at the hsc. you are examining government publications. and we can see paragraph 23 of your statement. one of the many meetings you attended to go over government publication online on the issue was around the level of detail to include so that people can be warned about what is going to happen. and the range of possibility of what might happen. at the bottom of that paragraph, iwant might happen. at the bottom of that paragraph, i want to focus on this strong expectation in a room from medical experts on the 20th of february was that the wave would be unstoppable once community transmission occurred. ie, once the contain phase was left. is transmission occurred. ie, once the contain phase was left.— contain phase was left. is that riuht? contain phase was left. is that right? that — contain phase was left. is that right? that is _ contain phase was left. is that right? that is correct. - contain phase was left. is that right? that is correct. of- contain phase was left. is that i right? that is correct. of course, you know — right? that is correct. of course, you know a — right? that is correct. of course, you know a lot about behaviour, but we are _ you know a lot about behaviour, but we are not— you know a lot about behaviour, but we are not medical experts and we are very— we are not medical experts and we are very much relying on it. that was very. — are very much relying on it. that was very, very strongly the impression. graphs on the wall and so on _ impression. graphs on the wall and so on. so_ impression. graphs on the wall and so on. ., , impression. graphs on the wall and soon. , ,, ., impression. graphs on the wall and so on. , ,, ., ., so on. so was the impression, from our so on. so was the impression, from your understanding, _ so on. so was the impression, from your understanding, that _ so on. so was the impression, from your understanding, that it - so on. so was the impression, from your understanding, that it was i so on. so was the impression, from your understanding, that it was not| your understanding, that it was not a matter of if, but when this virus was going to be unstoppable once community transmission occurred? yes, that conditionality being important. but, yes, in that time still. _ important. but, yes, in that time still. i_ important. but, yes, in that time still. ithink— important. but, yes, in that time still, i think people were still hoping. _ still, i think people were still hoping, if not expecting it would be possible _ hoping, if not expecting it would be possible to contain the virus through— possible to contain the virus through the work of public health england _ through the work of public health england and others. but once it got out more _ england and others. but once it got out more generally that it would be pretty— out more generally that it would be pretty much unstoppable and therefore, the implication was mitigating the negative effects, rather _ mitigating the negative effects, rather than being able to contain it. �* rather than being able to contain it. . . . , . rather than being able to contain it. . . ,., it. and at that stage, bearing in mind this meeting _ it. and at that stage, bearing in mind this meeting with - it. and at that stage, bearing in mind this meeting with a i it. and at that stage, bearing in l mind this meeting with a caveat, where you content the publication sufficiently represented the risk to the public is that time? == sufficiently represented the risk to the public is that time?— the public is that time? -- at that time. i the public is that time? -- at that time- i would _ the public is that time? -- at that time. i would have _ the public is that time? -- at that time. i would have to _ the public is that time? -- at that time. i would have to look- the public is that time? -- at that time. i would have to look back, i the public is that time? -- at that i time. i would have to look back, but ithink— time. i would have to look back, but i think it _ time. i would have to look back, but i think it was — time. i would have to look back, but i think it was pretty straight forward _ i think it was pretty straight forward that the implication if you read it. _ forward that the implication if you read it. a — forward that the implication if you read it, a lot of people were potentially going to die. and indeed. _ potentially going to die. and indeed, there were specific discussion about the inclusion of the numbers of deaths in previous pandemics, not least the so—called spanish _ pandemics, not least the so—called spanish flu, which it introduced a reference — spanish flu, which it introduced a reference point about the seriousness of the situation and there _ seriousness of the situation and there was— seriousness of the situation and there was discussion about whether to include _ there was discussion about whether to include that. and our view was that people need to be correctly calibrated about what the risk is. not afraid. — calibrated about what the risk is. not afraid, but collect the calibrated. so it seemed a sensible thing _ calibrated. so it seemed a sensible thing to— calibrated. so it seemed a sensible thing to do — calibrated. so it seemed a sensible thing to do. -- calibrated. so it seemed a sensible thing to do— thing to do. -- correctly calibrated. _ thing to do. -- correctly calibrated. i— thing to do. -- correctly calibrated. iwill- thing to do. -- correctly calibrated. i will use i thing to do. -- correctly calibrated. i will use a l thing to do. -- correctly - calibrated. i will use a different praise. did you have any concerns that this information was cutting through and was sufficient public awareness of the risks around that time? ' , ., , awareness of the risks around that time?_ this i awareness of the risks around that l time?_ this was time? -- different phrase. this was late february- _ time? -- different phrase. this was late february. the _ time? -- different phrase. this was late february. the 20th _ time? -- different phrase. this was late february. the 20th of- time? -- different phrase. this was late february. the 20th of februaryj late february. the 20th of february and before your meeting on the 25th of february. just before lombardy becomes more high—profile. i of february. just before lombardy becomes more high-profile. i didn't think it was — becomes more high-profile. i didn't think it was way _ becomes more high-profile. i didn't think it was way off. _ becomes more high-profile. i didn't think it was way off. but _ becomes more high-profile. i didn't think it was way off. but in - becomes more high-profile. i didn't think it was way off. but in the i think it was way off. but in the days— think it was way off. but in the days that — think it was way off. but in the days that followed and as you know, i had days that followed and as you know, i had to _ days that followed and as you know, i had to be _ days that followed and as you know, i had to be away for work and politically returning in late february, i was pretty surprised that we — february, i was pretty surprised that we were not seeing posters and profile _ that we were not seeing posters and profile. rememberthat that we were not seeing posters and profile. remember that on the 20th, you are _ profile. remember that on the 20th, you are still— profile. remember that on the 20th, you are still talking about contain and therefore, it is very small numbers _ and therefore, it is very small numbers. you are relying on pag to do their— numbers. you are relying on pag to do theirjob — numbers. you are relying on pag to do theirjob and everyone hope like previous— do theirjob and everyone hope like previous issues that it would be contained _ previous issues that it would be contained-— contained. let's move on to a meetin: contained. let's move on to a meeting you _ contained. let's move on to a meeting you had _ contained. let's move on to a meeting you had with - contained. let's move on to a| meeting you had with dominic cummings and ben warner on the 25th february. we can see paragraph 25. ben warner being a data scientist who we will hear evidence from next week. it was a meeting on non—lemon macro matters. you said that you took the opportunity to compare notes and share concerns. —— non—coronavirus matters. by this stage, the dreadful events in lombardy were in our consciousness. we could see what was going on on the televisions and the dreadful loss of life beginning to emerge over the days in italy. what concerns if any were expressed to you by ben warner and dominic cummings in this meeting? i you by ben warner and dominic cummings in this meeting? i don't think dominic _ cummings in this meeting? i don't think dominic cummings _ cummings in this meeting? i don't think dominic cummings was i cummings in this meeting? i don't think dominic cummings was at i cummings in this meeting? i don't i think dominic cummings was at that meeting _ think dominic cummings was at that meeting. from memory, ithink it think dominic cummings was at that meeting. from memory, i think it was only ben _ meeting. from memory, i think it was only ben it— meeting. from memory, i think it was only ben. it was a meeting as indicated. _ only ben. it was a meeting as indicated, primarily looking out. ben has— indicated, primarily looking out. ben has been brought in to try and increase _ ben has been brought in to try and increase the quantitative mathematical data science capability in downing street. so a lot of it, we were — in downing street. so a lot of it, we were talking about it in general terms _ we were talking about it in general terms is _ we were talking about it in general terms is my memory. but i'm sure we were _ terms is my memory. but i'm sure we were starting _ terms is my memory. but i'm sure we were starting to talk in this period about. _ were starting to talk in this period about, what are the data flows, what is the _ about, what are the data flows, what is the modelling, is it good enough and so _ is the modelling, is it good enough and so on? — is the modelling, is it good enough and so on? i— is the modelling, is it good enough and so on? i remember ben warner at that stage— and so on? i remember ben warner at that stage and you can ask him directly— that stage and you can ask him directly was quite upbeat about the modelling and its quality. which was a good _ modelling and its quality. which was a good comfort. but modelling and its quality. which was a good comfort-— modelling and its quality. which was a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base. a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base- yes- — a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base- yes- a — a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base. yes. a life _ a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base. yes. a life to _ a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base. yes. a life to what _ a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base. yes. a life to what was - a good comfort. but yes. so to touch base. yes. a life to what was going l base. yes. a life to what was going on in the wider _ base. yes. a life to what was going on in the wider world, but no significant concerns at this stage. remember that a lot of normal government was still carrying on at this period — government was still carrying on at this period. we look back and we can see the _ this period. we look back and we can see the story. but at that point, it hadn't _ see the story. but at that point, it hadn't really hit in the centre of government. hadn't really hit in the centre of government-— hadn't really hit in the centre of covernment. ~ . . , government. what we are interested in is our government. what we are interested in is your perspective _ government. what we are interested in is your perspective and _ government. what we are interested in is your perspective and your i in is your perspective and your experience as you had interaction with central government. on the 26th of february, the next day, this is not a government interaction, this is when you attended a royal society seminar. we have heard evidence from the president of the royal society. and this was a seminar to discuss quarantine is related to the current covid outbreak. you recall attending that meeting, that seminar. what impact, if any, that meeting, that seminar. what impact, ifany, did that meeting, that seminar. what impact, if any, did that have on you? impact, if any, did that have on ou? ~ ., ~' impact, if any, did that have on ou? . ., 4' ., ., impact, if any, did that have on ou? ~ ., ,, ., ., you? well, the work on covid was startin: you? well, the work on covid was starting to — you? well, the work on covid was starting to really _ you? well, the work on covid was starting to really take _ you? well, the work on covid was starting to really take over. i you? well, the work on covid was starting to really take over. my i starting to really take over. my life and — starting to really take over. my life and many others. but it was particularly, we were really still trying _ particularly, we were really still trying to — particularly, we were really still trying to understand the transmission mechanisms in detail. we were _ transmission mechanisms in detail. we were very interested in the detail— we were very interested in the detail because we were trying to guide _ detail because we were trying to guide people, you want to guide them on what _ guide people, you want to guide them on what is _ guide people, you want to guide them on what is affected. so to give a simple — on what is affected. so to give a simple example. i touched on this issue _ simple example. i touched on this issue about surfaces and the guidance _ issue about surfaces and the guidance was being assembled. do you need everybody in schools to be cleaning — need everybody in schools to be cleaning every flaw or not? is that relevant _ cleaning every flaw or not? is that relevant or— cleaning every flaw or not? is that relevant or is it not? there was particular— relevant or is it not? there was particular work, relevant or is it not? there was particularwork, i know relevant or is it not? there was particular work, i know you have spoken— particular work, i know you have spoken to — particular work, i know you have spoken to james rubin who did an excellent — spoken to james rubin who did an excellent review on quarantine and looking _ excellent review on quarantine and looking at — excellent review on quarantine and looking at the evidence and the extent — looking at the evidence and the extent to — looking at the evidence and the extent to which people would sustain quarantining behaviour over long periods. — quarantining behaviour over long periods, to which is general conclusion was, yes. so we were very much _ conclusion was, yes. so we were very much in _ conclusion was, yes. so we were very much in sponge learning mode still. what _ much in sponge learning mode still. what can— much in sponge learning mode still. what can we learn about these mechanisms, previous analogies behaviour? also in the neck also on the medical— behaviour? also in the neck also on the medical side, what is your best understanding on these transmission mechanisms? the last thing we want to do— mechanisms? the last thing we want to do is— mechanisms? the last thing we want to do is tell— mechanisms? the last thing we want to do is tell people in a campaign to do is tell people in a campaign to do— to do is tell people in a campaign to dox. — to do is tell people in a campaign to dox. y— to do is tell people in a campaign to do x, y and z and it will not be affected — to do x, y and z and it will not be affected. we want to direct attention, precious thing, did things— attention, precious thing, did things which make a difference to help people protect themselves and their families. this help people protect themselves and their families.— their families. this is a context of discussion — their families. this is a context of discussion in _ their families. this is a context of discussion in broad _ their families. this is a context of discussion in broad terms - their families. this is a context of discussion in broad terms of i discussion in broad terms of quarantine and testing and obtaining better data, is that right? yes. quarantine and testing and obtaining better data, is that right?— better data, is that right? yes, we were very interested _ better data, is that right? yes, we were very interested in _ better data, is that right? yes, we were very interested in testing i better data, is that right? yes, we | were very interested in testing and data and _ were very interested in testing and data and we can talk about that later. _ data and we can talk about that later. if— data and we can talk about that later, if you want. but every aspect of it _ later, if you want. but every aspect of it you _ later, if you want. but every aspect of it. you mentioned testing and let me introduce why behaviourally, we would _ me introduce why behaviourally, we would be _ me introduce why behaviourally, we would be interested in it. you want to know _ would be interested in it. you want to know about how a disease is moving — to know about how a disease is moving to _ to know about how a disease is moving to a population or not. where is your— moving to a population or not. where is your best _ moving to a population or not. where is your best place to put your testing — is your best place to put your testing if— is your best place to put your testing if you have limited capacity? you also want to look at its behavioural capacity. if i am going _ its behavioural capacity. if i am going to — its behavioural capacity. if i am going to say that you need to quarantine now for the next two weeks, will you do it, and you're tikety— weeks, will you do it, and you're tikety to — weeks, will you do it, and you're tikety to do — weeks, will you do it, and you're likely to do it if i say that you need — likely to do it if i say that you need to— likely to do it if i say that you need to take a test and it looks like you — need to take a test and it looks like you have covid? you can imagine the answer. _ like you have covid? you can imagine the answer, but it is empirical. or it is too— the answer, but it is empirical. or it is too soon _ the answer, but it is empirical. or it is too soon to say and you need to quarantine for two weeks and a week— to quarantine for two weeks and a week in. — to quarantine for two weeks and a week in. we — to quarantine for two weeks and a week in, we will need to test you to confirm _ week in, we will need to test you to confirm. behavioural consequences. can you _ confirm. behavioural consequences. can you continue with that subject? i can can you continue with that subject? i can pause — can you continue with that subject? i can pause now— can you continue with that subject? i can pause now because _ can you continue with that subject? i can pause now because i- can you continue with that subject? i can pause now because i am - i can pause now because i am conscious we have been going a long time. i conscious we have been going a long time. . . , ., conscious we have been going a long time. . . ., ., , time. i have a message of that is ok? i time. i have a message of that is ok? i shall— time. i have a message of that is ok? i shall return _ time. i have a message of that is ok? i shall return in _ time. i have a message of that is ok? i shall return in 15 _ time. i have a message of that is ok? i shall return in 15 minutes. | ok? i shall return in 15 minutes. all rights — ok? i shall return in 15 minutes. all rights-— all rights. you're watching bbc news. all rights. you're watching bbc news- this _ all rights. you're watching bbc news. this is _ all rights. you're watching bbc news. this is our _ all rights. you're watching bbc news. this is our continuing i all rights. you're watching bbc. news. this is our continuing live coverage of the uk covid inquiry. we have just been hearing coverage of the uk covid inquiry. we havejust been hearing evidence coverage of the uk covid inquiry. we have just been hearing evidence from professor david halpern, the president of the behavioural insights team. that is the organisation that advised the government on how people were likely to react to lock down measures during the pandemic, all using behavioural science. earlier today, the former deputy cabinet secretary helen macnamara gave evidence and she told the inquiry that she would find it hard to pick a single day when covid regulations were followed properly in number 10 downing street and the cabinet office. she also said sexism and macho culture in number 10 and the cabinet meant that women'srespective were being missed in advice and decision—making. —— the perspective of women. she was asked whether the interests of children, including schools being closed and the grading of exams were properly considered. i closed and the grading of exams were properly considered.— properly considered. i think it is the invisibility _ properly considered. i think it is the invisibility which _ properly considered. i think it is the invisibility which is - properly considered. i think it is the invisibility which is my i properly considered. i think it is i the invisibility which is my concern about— the invisibility which is my concern about that — the invisibility which is my concern about that. because you can't see the problem you are creating in the future _ the problem you are creating in the future and — the problem you are creating in the future and i— the problem you are creating in the future and i think one of the responsibilities of good government is to do— responsibilities of good government is to do that and make today's issue to be _ is to do that and make today's issue to be addressed and it felt like it was not — to be addressed and it felt like it was not really material. i also think— was not really material. i also think going back to my narrow perspective point, it was really striking — perspective point, it was really striking at the time for those of us who have — striking at the time for those of us who have children in state schools throughout the vast majority of the country _ throughout the vast majority of the country that the differential experience of some children and other— experience of some children and other children, and my children are obviously— other children, and my children are obviously fortunate in so many other ways in _ obviously fortunate in so many other ways in terms of the access they have. _ ways in terms of the access they have. and — ways in terms of the access they have, and there was not enough thinking — have, and there was not enough thinking about the overall experience of children who might not have quite _ experience of children who might not have quite the same privileges as the people who are in rooms in whitehall— the people who are in rooms in whitehall taking decisions. and i think— whitehall taking decisions. and i think it _ whitehall taking decisions. and i think it is — whitehall taking decisions. and i think it is related a little bit to my point— think it is related a little bit to my point about domestic abuses that you just _ my point about domestic abuses that you just should not as a state, as a government. — you just should not as a state, as a government, be able to not know and understand _ government, be able to not know and understand the whole population in your decision—making. particularly the people — your decision—making. particularly the people who are outside of your day-to-day— the people who are outside of your day—to—day experience. and that causes _ day—to—day experience. and that causes problems if you think that your life — causes problems if you think that your life is — causes problems if you think that your life is the same as everybody etse's_ your life is the same as everybody etse's and — your life is the same as everybody else's and it is kind of trying to do that— else's and it is kind of trying to do that as _ else's and it is kind of trying to do that as an individual, but institutionally, it is really wrong. let's _ institutionally, it is really wrong. let's recap — institutionally, it is really wrong. let's recap more on what helen macnamara told the inquiry this morning. she spoke about what she felt was the failure to consider certain groups by government. take a listen. certain groups by government. take a listen- here — certain groups by government. take a listen. here are _ certain groups by government. take a listen. here are a _ certain groups by government. take a listen. here are a whole _ certain groups by government. take a listen. here are a whole series i certain groups by government. take a listen. here are a whole series of- listen. here are a whole series of issues, all of them linked to this question of narrow perspectives which you were racing in april. and we have been through them and to a varying degree, you are able to get others to take them on. looking forward, perhaps to the next pandemic, it is obvious from what you have said that you would hope that the cabinet office would have more time to think these things through. but beyond that, how should the government, do you think, ensure that the interests of ethnic minority people, disabled people, women are more properly taken into account in this sort of situation? so i think i would say two things. firstly. _ so i think i would say two things. firstly. you — so i think i would say two things. firstly, you have heard some great and interesting things in your first module _ and interesting things in your first module about how government should be ready— module about how government should be ready for crisis response. and i would _ be ready for crisis response. and i would hope — be ready for crisis response. and i would hope that the suggestion that ithink— would hope that the suggestion that i think was made about creating a bitter— i think was made about creating a bitter machinery that had that responsibility of auditing and managing plans, you would want that to be one _ managing plans, you would want that to be one of— managing plans, you would want that to be one of the questions it was asking _ to be one of the questions it was asking -- — to be one of the questions it was asking —— better machinery. not just. _ asking —— better machinery. not just. are — asking —— better machinery. not just. are we _ asking —— better machinery. not just, are we ready and how we got enough _ just, are we ready and how we got enough of— just, are we ready and how we got enough of this thing in the warehouse, but have we got sufficiently about the impact? i think— sufficiently about the impact? i think there are legal frameworks that could be in place that i believe _ that could be in place that i believe would eclipse for better decision—making in terms of this sort of— decision—making in terms of this sort of emergency again. —— would eclipse~ _ sort of emergency again. —— would eclipse~ this— sort of emergency again. —— would eclipse. this is also about normal civil service — eclipse. this is also about normal civil service work. in my experience as a civil— civil service work. in my experience as a civil servant, it isjust normal— as a civil servant, it isjust normal and actually legally required of you _ normal and actually legally required of you in _ normal and actually legally required of you in terms of an equality impact — of you in terms of an equality impact assessment to make sure the work you _ impact assessment to make sure the work you are — impact assessment to make sure the work you are doing, that you understand the impact it is going to have _ understand the impact it is going to have. those things can be laborious and the _ have. those things can be laborious and the answer to everything is not, let's have _ and the answer to everything is not, let's have another piece of law about— let's have another piece of law about it — let's have another piece of law about it. but i do feel you have to have _ about it. but i do feel you have to have structural mechanisms that don't _ have structural mechanisms that don't let— have structural mechanisms that don't let you not notice the impact of the _ don't let you not notice the impact of the decisions that you are making and that— of the decisions that you are making and that matters even in a crisis. and i_ and that matters even in a crisis. and i also— and that matters even in a crisis. and i also think there is a whole host— and i also think there is a whole host of— and i also think there is a whole host of other things about culture and behaviours and the structures and behaviours and the structures and the _ and behaviours and the structures and the people and the skills and experience around a prime minister that i_ experience around a prime minister that i hope — experience around a prime minister that i hope will be better. because that i hope will be better. because that is— that i hope will be better. because that is what we collectively or need to do. _ that is what we collectively or need to do. just — that is what we collectively or need to do, just make sure it is better next _ to do, just make sure it is better next time — to do, just make sure it is better next time-— to do, just make sure it is better next time. a. ., ., ., , next time. helen macnamara this morninu next time. helen macnamara this morning also _ next time. helen macnamara this morning also spoke _ next time. helen macnamara this morning also spoke about i next time. helen macnamara this morning also spoke about what i next time. helen macnamara this i morning also spoke about what she said was the toxic culture inside those offices at the time. she said they were not any women talking in meetings which was, she said, unusual, striking and awful. and she said women told her they felt they had become invisible overnight. let's listen to what else she said. and i don't know if it was a consequence of the psychological pressure — consequence of the psychological pressure people were under. i don't pressure people were under. idon't know— pressure people were under. idon't know what— pressure people were under. i don't know what it was. but it was really, really _ know what it was. but it was really, really obvious that not only were there _ really obvious that not only were there hardly any women there, but when _ there hardly any women there, but when they— there hardly any women there, but when they were there, they had to turn their— when they were there, they had to turn their screens off on the zoom meeting _ turn their screens off on the zoom meeting or— turn their screens off on the zoom meeting or they were sitting in the back row— meeting or they were sitting in the back row or— meeting or they were sitting in the back row or theyjust were not any women _ back row or theyjust were not any women talking. which was unusual. and that _ women talking. which was unusual. and that probably, i don't know if it is worse — and that probably, i don't know if it is worse than that, but related to that. — it is worse than that, but related to that, women whose job it was to do something were not able to do theirjobs— do something were not able to do theirjobs properly because they were _ theirjobs properly because they were not— theirjobs properly because they were not having the space or being asked _ were not having the space or being asked the — were not having the space or being asked the right questions are being treated _ asked the right questions are being treated with the respect that they would _ treated with the respect that they would do — treated with the respect that they would do and it was genuinely, it was both— would do and it was genuinely, it was both striking and awful. and then— was both striking and awful. and then the — was both striking and awful. and then the fact that there were no women — then the fact that there were no women contributing to the policy discussions, a problem in itself because — discussions, a problem in itself because there were some expert women who are _ because there were some expert women who are not _ because there were some expert women who are not being listened to. and also. _ who are not being listened to. and also, women were being looked over. we can— also, women were being looked over. we can go— also, women were being looked over. we can go live now to that inquiry where our political correspondent nick eardley is waiting. what has the afternoon told us? do nick eardley is waiting. what has the afternoon told us?— nick eardley is waiting. what has the afternoon told us? do you know what? i the afternoon told us? do you know what? ithink— the afternoon told us? do you know what? i think today _ the afternoon told us? do you know what? i think today has _ the afternoon told us? do you know what? i think today has been i the afternoon told us? do you know. what? i think today has been another dizzying set of claims and revelations. remember that helen macnamara was the second most senior civil servant in the uk. herjob was literally to make government work well. and it was abundantly clear from her evidence this morning and into this afternoon that there were many occasions where she just didn't think that was the case. it was almost a list of failures is the pandemic was progressing. the government, she said, or number 10 specifically i should say, was too bullish at the start of the pandemic. there was a belief that this just would not hit the uk pandemic. there was a belief that thisjust would not hit the uk in the way that it was starting to hit other parts of the world. she made it clear that she thought there was a toxic, sexist, misogynistic culture at number 10 where women and people from ethnic minorities were often left out of key decisions. and what was really interesting this afternoon she outlined the practical implications that had. key decisions about things like childcare not involving people who were often involved in looking after kids. she talked about ppe order is often not catering for women in the way that they needed to. so there was all this stuff about how terrible the culture was in number 10 in her view, and then there was even more about so—called partygate. the gatherings that happened in number 10 and whitehall that helped bring down borisjohnson as prime minister. two really striking moments on that. helen macnamara said that there were probably hundreds, yes, literally hundreds of officials, civil servants and ministers, government ministers who had broken the rules during the pandemic because of where the line was drawn by police. and secondly, that really striking quote where she said that there was not a single day in number 10, said that there was not a single day in numberio, not said that there was not a single day in number 10, not a single day in numberio in number 10, not a single day in number 10 downing street where all the rules were followed. so you really have had over the course of this week, just a sense of the number 10 machine being dysfunctional, being chaotic, being riven with division and people not working properly together. i should say we have not heard from boris johnson at this inquiry yet. he will give evidence we think in a few weeks' time. but he is going to have some pretty big questions to answer i think about the culture under his leadership. 50 i think about the culture under his leadership-— i think about the culture under his leadershi. . ., ., ., leadership. so we have heard a lot about those _ leadership. so we have heard a lot about those in _ leadership. so we have heard a lot about those in leadership i leadership. so we have heard a lot about those in leadership at i leadership. so we have heard a lot about those in leadership at the i about those in leadership at the time and the confidence, the breezy confidence was the description helen macnamara gave of borisjohnson at the time. and she also spoke at length about that then health secretary matt hancock, saying that he showed nuclear levels of confidence and that his reassurances often turned out not to be accurate and not an accurate reflection of what was going on. what else did she say about those in the decision—making roles at the time? i mean, it is pretty clear she didn't think that matt hancock was trustworthy. she talked about mr hancock telling people things that transpired over time to not be true. and that is a really damning conclusion from such a senior civil servant of a man who was at the front line of the pandemic response. the minister whosejob it front line of the pandemic response. the minister whose job it was to make sure that the health system was ready for the pandemic and operated properly. there have been various accounts given this week by dominic cummings, lee cain and other number 10 officials that mr hancock would io officials that mr hancock would say there was a plan and then when you tried to figure out what the plan was, they couldn't find one. so mr hancock is facing these huge questions as well about his role and whether everything he was telling the cabinet, number 10 and telling government officials was correct. clearly, miss macnamara thinks that was often not the case. and then she brought up this rather bizarre image of mr hancock being asked about how it was all going and him doing an impression of a cricket batsmen batting away the ball and saying that they throw them at me and i back them away. what really strikes me about all of this is we have heard some of this in isolation. we have heard fears of senior government officials, we have heard accounts of chaos or dysfunction before, we have heard stories about some ministers not always been completely transparent in their accounts. but it is so striking here it read out by senior people who were in the room is big decisions were in the room is big decisions were being made. of course a lot of them are trying give their story of what happened to try and defend their own role in the process, we have heard a lot of that over the last few days. but as someone who covered the pandemic and following what the government was doing every single day at the time, it is just so striking that so many of them thought it was a shambles. band so striking that so many of them thought it was a shambles. and we are keeping — thought it was a shambles. and we are keeping a _ thought it was a shambles. and we are keeping a close _ thought it was a shambles. and we are keeping a close eye _ thought it was a shambles. and we are keeping a close eye on i thought it was a shambles. and we are keeping a close eye on that i thought it was a shambles. and we | are keeping a close eye on that live feed to see when that resumes. before we let you go, helen macnamara also spoke about the inequality is being compounded by some of these policy decisions that were being taken and she said that she was quite damning of those inside number 10 not realising the impact because perhaps they were insulated and their lives were perhaps out of touch with what was happening with regular people. can you expand on that? yes. happening with regular people. can you expand on that?— you expand on that? yes, it really interesting _ you expand on that? yes, it really interesting account _ you expand on that? yes, it really interesting account from i you expand on that? yes, it really interesting account from miss i interesting account from miss macnamara which i think was a reflection more than anything else about the way that decisions are made. she talked about education. you will remember schools in england were closed on a number of occasions, there was a row over exams being downgraded by the department for education. she basically said that there were too few people making these decisions who had gone to state school, there were too many people from privileged backgrounds who assumed their worldview was correct and therefore, they were not thinking about the impact this sort of thing would have on kids at state school or perhaps kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. so that was pretty damning. then there was her account of the lack of women in the room. we talked about the misogyny and sexism that miss macnamara reflected on or alleged, anyway. she also made it clear that she thought that was a problem because it meant that when things like access to abortion services or access of medical professionals to ppe or access to childcare, when they were all being considered, there were too few women with direct experience of dealing with those issues making the actual decisions. and then finally, ethnic minorities. again, you have got this picture there was a bunch of white guys in there was a bunch of white guys in the room making the decision, frankly, and there were not enough people from diverse backgrounds coming up with their own experience and saying that this is how this will affect different communities or different parts of society. and that was helping, as you say, compound some of the problems that emerged later in the pandemic or actually, some of them emerge quite early in the pandemic as well. so if you stand back from all of this, what all this does i think is create this horrendous picture of a government that was dysfunctional, chaotic, riven by division, sexist, misogynist. the account of some officials. , ., , officials. sorry to interrupt you. we are seeing _ officials. sorry to interrupt you. we are seeing that _ officials. sorry to interrupt you. we are seeing that inquiry i officials. sorry to interrupt you. i we are seeing that inquiry resume, this is the uk covid inquiry. the cabinet room _ this is the uk covid inquiry. tie: cabinet room was chaired this is the uk covid inquiry. ti9 cabinet room was chaired by matt hancock dealing with a number of the issues and pinch points. and as a result of that and your dealings with patrick vallance at that time, you are asked by him tojoin sage. is that correct? that is correct, in that— is that correct? that is correct, in that meeting. is that correct? that is correct, in that meeting-— that meeting. and what was the rationale for _ that meeting. and what was the rationale for you _ that meeting. and what was the rationale for you being i that meeting. and what was the rationale for you being asked i that meeting. and what was the rationale for you being asked to | rationale for you being asked to join sage? rationale for you being asked to 'oin sane? :, .., rationale for you being asked to 'oin sane? ., .. ., ,~' rationale for you being asked to 'oin sane? ., ., ., a join sage? you can ask patrick vallance- _ join sage? you can ask patrick vallance. there _ join sage? you can ask patrick vallance. there were i join sage? you can ask patrick vallance. there were two i join sage? you can ask patrick| vallance. there were two main issues. — vallance. there were two main issues. i— vallance. there were two main issues, i think. vallance. there were two main issues, ithink. one is that vallance. there were two main issues, i think. one is that i vallance. there were two main issues, ithink. one is that i had mentioned — issues, ithink. one is that i had mentioned to him about some modelling work we thought was very -ood modelling work we thought was very good particularly linked to hannah freud _ good particularly linked to hannah freud the — good particularly linked to hannah freud the mathematician. a simulation of the spread of coronavirus which we thought had very powerful insights in it —— hannah— very powerful insights in it —— hannah fry. we were also interested in the _ hannah fry. we were also interested in the details of the transmission as i explained earlier including the extent— as i explained earlier including the extent to — as i explained earlier including the extent to which, which behaviours would _ extent to which, which behaviours would protect both individuals and populations? sir patrick was very keen— populations? sir patrick was very keen there — populations? sir patrick was very keen there be one voice and one view on this— keen there be one voice and one view on this and _ keen there be one voice and one view on this and he encouraged and asked me to _ on this and he encouraged and asked me tojoin _ on this and he encouraged and asked me tojoin sage meetings accordingly. we know that from the 3rd of march to the 23rd of march you were at six meetings, the first on the 3rd of march. on the 5th of march the second meeting you attended to, your summary is that it considered how to communicate in a way that would be effective and would not panic people. that theme continuing. the 10th of march your view of that meeting is summarised in your statement, at this stage there appeared to be a view that covid was an unstoppable wave and containment of the virus would not be a viable option. the 13th of march the next meeting you

Related Keywords

Government , Crisis , Minister , Fuel Crises , Crises , Jerry Cart , Public , Hand , Everyone , Family , Mass Panic , Led , Cars , System Crashing , Edo , Family Orr , Jerry Can , Thai , One , 0 , Messaging , Concern Case , Panic , Type , In , Have Panic , Don T Have Panic To Avoid , Don T Have Panic , Fine Have Panic , Public Case , Public Messaging Case , People , Belief , Things , Yes , Something , Lives , Sense , Make , Attention , Alwa S , Uncertainty , Regret Messages , Hand Washing , Obvious , Thing , Hands , Harm , Example , Relation , Examples , Regret , Transmission , Example Transmission , Iirr , Work , Organisation , Amount , Illustration , Posters , Someone , Many , Team , Challenge , Green , Britain , Question , You Wouldn T Dwell On It , Poster , Test Variations , Information , Dwell On It , Wouldn T Dwell On It , Wouldn T , It , Thousands , World , Messages , Say , Latei , Five , Testing , Evidence , Number , Test , Testing Variations , Iterations , It Testing Variations , Message , Words , Some , Confusion , Nhs , Comprehension , Itjust , Trail , Product , Images , Decision Making , Experiments , Messa , Messaue , It Number , Issues , View , Policy , Lots , Delivery , Questions , Way , Involvement , Empirical Way , Professor , Side , Touch , 18th Of February , 18 , Chris , Understanding , Covid Transmission , Covid Transmission Mechanism , Iunis , Mechanism , Transmission Mechanism , Us , Briefing , Lot , Virus , Surface , Services , Strategy , Hair , Cleaning Services , Cough , Transmission Mechanisms , Spread , Support , Points , Movin , Fific , 20 , 20th Of February , Meeting , Meetings , Paragraph , Government Publications , Statement , Hsc , 23 , Issue , Detail , Government Publication , Level , Experts , Room , Bottom , Expectation , Orange , Wave , Iwant , Possibility , Phase , Being Chaotic , Behaviour , Community Transmission , Is Transmission , Ie , Riuht , Impression , Wall , Graphs , Matter , So Impression , If , Ithink , Conditionality , I , Implication , Others , England , Effects , Public Health England , Stage , Risk , Bearing , Mind , Publication , Ai , Caveat , Discussion , The Public , Inclusion , Numbers , Spanish , Situation , Pandemics , Seriousness , Reference Point , Spanish Flu , Flu , Deaths , Calibrated , Phrase , Concerns , Risks , Awareness , Hi , Praise , Iwill , Meal , Profile , 20th Of Februaryj , 25th Of February , 25 , Rememberthat , Theirjob , You , Hope , Pag , Meetin , Ben Warner , Dominic Cummings , Data Scientist , Non Lemon Macro Matters , 25th February , Share Concerns , Consciousness , Notes , Opportunity , Lombardy , Events , Life , Televisions , Loss , Italy , Memory , Terms , Downing Street , Data Flows , Capability , Data Science , Quantitative Mathematical , Modelling , Comfort , Quality , Base , It Hadn T , Perspective , Point , Story , Centre , Of Covernment , Experience , Central Government , Royal Society Seminar , Government Interaction , President , Interaction , Royal Society , 26th Of February , 26 , Impact , Quarantine , Seminar , Covid Outbreak , Ifany , Startin , 4 , Schools , Everybody , Surfaces , Flaw , Guidance , Particularwork , Conclusion , Extent , Review , James Rubin , Quarantining Behaviour , Mechanisms , Neck , Analogies Behaviour , Sponge Learning Mode , Campaign , Families , Y And Z , Do X , Difference , Data , Context , Aspect , Their , Help , Families , Place , Behaviourally , Population , Disease , Capacity , Tikety , Two , Answer , Behavioural Consequences , Need , Subject , Time , 15 , Bbc News , Rights , Covid Inquiry , Hearing Evidence , Coverage , News , Hearing Coverage , Hearing Evidence Coverage , Pandemic , David Halpern , Behavioural Science , Measures , Behavioural Insights Team , Inquiry , Helen Macnamara , Cabinet Office , Regulations , Number 10 Downing Street , 10 , Culture , Sexism , Cabinet , Macho , Women Srespective , Advice , Invisibility , Children , Concern , Exams , Women , Grading , Interests , Problem , Responsibilities , Majority , Country , Perspective Point , State Schools , Access , Ways , Thinking , Have , Decisions , Whitehall , Rooms , Abuses , Privileges , Problems , Estate , Causes , Kind , Institutionally , Recap Institutionally , Individual , Recap , Let , Everybody Else , Etse , Listen , Groups , Series , Here , Perspectives , Failure , Racing , Whole , Degree , Forward , Minority , Account , Sort , Crisis Response , Suggestion , Module , Firstly , Machinery , Plans , Responsibility , Auditing , Frameworks , Warehouse , Servant , Emergency , Eclipse , Equality Impact , Equality Impact Assessment , Civil Service , Civil Servant , Isjust , Everything , Law , Piece , Impact Assessment , Assessment , Doing , Prime Minister , Behaviours , Matters , Host , Structures , Making , Don T , Host Of , Don T Let Have Structural Mechanisms , Skills , This Morninu , Offices , Pressure , Idon T , Pressure Consequence , Consequence , Zoom Meeting , Back Row , Theyjust , Screens , Theirjobs , Job , Women Talking , Respect , Space , Policy Discussions , Fact , Both , Nick Eardley , Discussions , Afternoon , Claims , Revelations , Is Waiting , Set , Occasions , Government Work , Morning , Senior , Herjob , Case , List , Start , Failures , Parts , Thisjust , Toxic , Misogynistic Culture , Childcare , Implications , Key Decisions , Minorities , Kids , Stuff , Ppe Order , Gatherings , Borisjohnson , Partygate , Officials , Ministers , Government Ministers , Hundreds , Rules , Quote , Police , Numberio , Line , Division , Riven , Confidence , Leadership , Matt Hancock , Leadershi , Description , Length , 50 , Reflection , Decision Making Roles , Reassurances , Levels , Mr , Response , Oman , Front Line , Health System , Minister Whosejob , Accounts , Plan , Lee Cain , Io , Miss , Government Officials , Role , Image , Hancock , Ball , Cricket Batsmen Batting , Chaos , Isolation , Dysfunction , Fears , Stories , Process , Shambles , Eye , Thought , Feed , Close , Policy Decisions , Inequality , Anything , Row , Education , Department For Education , State School , Backgrounds , Worldview , Misogyny , Black , Professionals , Ppe , Abortion , Bunch , Guys , Picture , Dealing , Decision , Society , Communities , Helping , Misogynist , Riven By Division , Cabinet Room , Patrick Vallance , Tie , Result , Dealings , Tojoin Sage , Ti9 , Him , Rationale , Oin , Join Sage , Sage , Freud , Vallance , Mathematician , Hannah Fry , I Vallance , Insights , Which , Simulation , Details , Coronavirus , Patrick , Voice , Populations , Individuals , 3rd Of March To The 23rd , The 5th Of March , Six , 3rd Of March , 5th Of March , 5 , 23rd Of March , 3 , Theme Continuing , Summary , 10th Of March , Containment , Option , The 13th Of March , 13th Of March , 13 ,