humanitarian reasons. around 200 hostages are still being held in gaza, and israel's airstrikes and total siege of the territory, cutting off food, water and medicines, will not end until all of them are freed. desperately needed humanitarian aid has still not reached the besieged people of gaza. emergency aid trucks stocked with supplies sit on the border with egypt waiting to be let across the rafah crossing as part of a deal to allow in limited aid. let's bring you more now on the fate of those two american hostages freed by hamas. us presidentjoe biden spoke with the two women, telling them that their government will fully support them as they recover and heal. our correspondent barbara plett usher brings us more from inside the halls of the state department. the release of the hostages disrupted the day here at the state department. we were sitting down for the daily briefing and then we were told that it would be delayed for two hours because of breaking news. now, they didn't say what the breaking news was, but we knew what it was. and so when we returned to the briefing room, there was another delay and then secretary of state antony blinken came up to speak. and this was an important moment for him, because he has really been pressing for the release of the hostages during his recent trip to the region, engaging in shuttle diplomacy between israel and the arab states. he was pressing for this, especially in qatar, which has taken the lead in trying to negotiate the release of the hostages because it has relations with hamas. there is a hamas office in doha, so qatar has been working very hard on this. the foreign ministry there released a statement saying there had been days of continuous communication to get to this point with all parties, and saying that the qataris would continue talks with hamas and with the israelis to try to get the rest of the hostages released, and hopefully that would help to de—escalate the situation. hamas said it was releasing these hostages for humanitarian reasons, but it also said it was still in talks with qatar and egypt to talk about releasing the rest of the civilian hostages if the security arrangements or the security arrangements or the security environment allowed. and reports suggest that they were saying that if the airstrikes would stop, this could be a possibility. now, mr lincoln was asked whether he saw this as a window of opportunity to follow up, but he didn't really go there. he said that the us position was all hostages should be released immediately and unconditionally, and he said he would not take at face value anything that hamas said —— mr blinken. joining me now are gina abercrombie—winstanley, president of the middle east policy council, and suzanne malone, vice president and director of the foreign policy program at the brookings institution. good evening to you both. very good to have you on bbc news tonight. we will start with the news of these hostages released. can you give us an idea what would have been going on behind the scenes to secure their release?— their release? well, clearly for the last _ their release? well, clearly for the last several- their release? well, clearly for the last several days . their release? well, clearly i for the last several days there have been negotiations supported by probably a number of parties, certainly the united states has been intent on doing all that we can to secure our own citizens, as any government would, working— i know the israelis of course are doing the same, and qatar has a very important role to play because it is in that position of being able to speak with all parties. and this elevates qatar in comparison with several other countries in the region that would be supportive of these negotiations. so no doubt the united states, to some extent the government of israel, the government of egypt, but really led by the government of qatar, who is able to speak directly to hamas to effect the release of these two women. to effect the release of these two women-— two women. yes, they really a - ear two women. yes, they really appear to — two women. yes, they really appear to be _ two women. yes, they really appear to be very _ two women. yes, they really appear to be very complex . appear to be very complex negotiations that were happening behind the scenes, gina. suzanne, iwant happening behind the scenes, gina. suzanne, i want to bring you gina. suzanne, iwant to bring you in on gina. suzanne, i want to bring you in on this and ask you what you in on this and ask you what you make of this news. could we be witnessing the start of a de—escalation? i be witnessing the start of a de-escalation?_ be witnessing the start of a de-escalation? i would love to believe that _ de-escalation? i would love to believe that that _ de-escalation? i would love to believe that that might - de-escalation? i would love to believe that that might be - de-escalation? i would love to believe that that might be the | believe that that might be the case, — believe that that might be the case, but i really don't have any— case, but i really don't have any reason for confidence that we are — any reason for confidence that we are seeing anything that could — we are seeing anything that could lead to a broader de—escalation. i think the release _ de—escalation. i think the release of the two american israeli — release of the two american israeli hostage is a credit to the incredibly tireless diplomacy of secretary of state tony _ diplomacy of secretary of state tony blinken, but also the wider— tony blinken, but also the wider efforts on the part of the biden administration to try to press— the biden administration to try to press for at least some pause _ to press for at least some pause by— to press for at least some pause by the israelis before a ground — pause by the israelis before a ground invasion begins, in order— ground invasion begins, in order to _ ground invasion begins, in order to do as much as might be possible — order to do as much as might be possible to — order to do as much as might be possible to effect the release of as — possible to effect the release of as many hostages as possible. of as many hostages as possible-— of as many hostages as ossible. ,, ., ., ., possible. suzanne, iwant to follow-op — possible. suzanne, iwant to follow-op on _ possible. suzanne, iwant to follow-up on that, _ possible. suzanne, iwant to follow-up on that, because l possible. suzanne, i want to l follow-up on that, because we follow—up on that, because we saw president biden saying tonight— he was asked about whether he wants israel to delay the ground invasion that we are expecting until they can get more hostages out, and he said yes. what do you think that means for what me we might see? ~ ~ ., ., see? well, i think we have all been poised _ see? well, i think we have all been poised since _ see? well, i think we have all been poised since this - see? well, i think we have all been poised since this horrific attack— been poised since this horrific attack on _ been poised since this horrific attack on israel was revealed to see — attack on israel was revealed to see that the israelis were going — to see that the israelis were going to _ to see that the israelis were going to very quickly go into gaza — going to very quickly go into gaza i_ going to very quickly go into gaza. i think that there has been — gaza. i think that there has been some restraint on the part of the _ been some restraint on the part of the israelis. they were very clear— of the israelis. they were very clear on— of the israelis. they were very clear on what the objectives are in— clear on what the objectives are in terms of releasing as many— are in terms of releasing as many hostages as possible, decapitating the hamas leadership and ensuring that hamas— leadership and ensuring that hamas can no longer effect any kind of— hamas can no longer effect any kind of attack of this kind in the future. but obviously the mobilisation of 300,000 plus soldiers — mobilisation of 300,000 plus soldiers to go into gaza on the ground, — soldiers to go into gaza on the ground, very difficult terrain, one _ ground, very difficult terrain, one that _ ground, very difficult terrain, one that has already been under bombardment for several weeks and where there are significant tunnel— and where there are significant tunnel infrastructure present, where — tunnel infrastructure present, where hostages may be held but also where fighters are going to be — also where fighters are going to be active. and sol also where fighters are going to be active. and so i think that— to be active. and so i think that there is a need for a plan that— that there is a need for a plan that really meets the strategic objectives of the israelis. and gina, i objectives of the israelis. and gina. i saw— objectives of the israelis. and gina, i saw you _ objectives of the israelis. fific gina, i saw you nodding as objectives of the israelis. fific gina, i saw you nodding as i was putting that question to suzanne, so i want to get your thoughts on that as well. ida. suzanne, so i want to get your thoughts on that as well. no, i think that's — thoughts on that as well. no, i think that's exactly _ thoughts on that as well. no, i think that's exactly right, - thoughts on that as well. no, i think that's exactly right, but l think that's exactly right, but i will add that being able to get to hostages now will put additional pressure on the government of israel — that hamas may be using those hostages to release them in small doses, dribs and drabs, two here, three there, may indeed force the government of israel to delay the ground invasion. certainly the families, a lot of pressure will be coming from them, as well as other governments who have citizens inside of the gaza strip. so that might have that consequence as well. we have to watch that and see. really interesting points you make, gina and suzanne. we will take a look at some items and come back to you a moment. the human toll has mounted. more than 1,400 people have been killed in israel and at least 3,400 palestinians have been killed. on 7 october hamas attacks southern and central israel by land and air, killing israeli civilians and soldiers in what has led some leaders to call it israel's 9/11. soon after, israel launches retaliatory airstrikes on gaza, with president benjamin netanyahu announcing that israel is at war. strikes have continued from both gaza and israel. the very next day, israel declared a siege on the territory, saying it is cutting off gaza's electricity and water until hamas releases hostages. on 13 october israel's defense force calls for all residents of gaza city to evacuate their homes and move south for their protection ahead of a possible ground offensive. on 17 october, hundreds of people are killed in an explosion at the al—ahli hospital at the centre of gaza city. it still has not been confirmed who launched the attack. mr biden visited israel to show us support on 18 october, vowing the us would help the country defend itself. he also pushed for humanitarian aid into gaza, securing $100 million in aid to palestinians and striking a deal with egypt to open its rafah crossing into egypt. but not everyone in the biden administration agrees with the us government's policy. josh paul was a former state department official who resigned over the us response to the war. in a public letter, he explained his reasons for quitting — he walked through his rationale with my colleague caitriona perry earlier. you say in your letter that the biden administration's approach has been an impulsive reaction built on confirmation bias, political convenience, intellectual bankruptcy and bureaucratic inertia. can you explain what you mean by that? surely. so, impulsive — i think everyone was shaken and shocked by the horrific attacks of hamas on 7 october. and let's not make any bones about it, those were absolutely an outrage and should be condemned forthright. but there was an impulse there to say, ok, this is something horrible has happened. what is israel asking for? let's do everything we can. i say that there was bureaucratic inertia because, again, this has been the trend for many years — that when israel asks for something, we give it. and rather than pausing to think about what we're doing, that's how we move forward. confirmation bias in the sense that we see an attack, it confirms our bias that this is an enemy that must be defeated. and there is certainly an argument to be made there, but rather than standing back and looking at the broader situation and, again, looking at both sides. so i think in each of those respects... and intellectual bankruptcy, because this is something we have tried for years and years and years, and it has not led to security for israel. it has not led to peace. emily harding, deputy director and senior fellow of the international security program at the center for strategic and international studies. what do you make of mr paul's reasons for leaving the state department? he reasons for leaving the state department?— reasons for leaving the state deartment? ., ., ., ., department? he had to do what he thought _ department? he had to do what he thought was _ department? he had to do what he thought was best, _ department? he had to do what he thought was best, but - department? he had to do what he thought was best, but i - department? he had to do what he thought was best, but i do i he thought was best, but i do not agree with many of his comments. i am not agree with many of his comments. iam not not agree with many of his comments. i am not sure that intellectual bankruptcy is the way to look at this. what hamas did was a heinous terrorist attack and the united states has always been a staunch opponent of terrorism in all its forms. the gut reaction to support the israelis in what they feel they need to do to protect the people was the right reaction. now, in any democracy, it is very healthy to have a debate about what the right course of action is, and kudos to him for speaking up for what he believes in, ijust disagree with his opinion. emily, how do you think this has played out, actually, for the biden administration? because that very balance between pressing israel on its operation in gaza but also standing up behind israel and supporting it has been a difficult one for the binding administration to what —— biden administration. the administration to what -- biden administration.— administration. the biden administration _ administration. the biden administration has - administration. the biden administration has been l administration. the biden i administration has been very clear about its strong support for israel, and i think that biden's visit to israel in the middle of what is in essence a war really speaks to that support. further, ithink war really speaks to that support. further, i think that the biden administration is doing the right things when it comes to asking israelis hard questions about their plans but balancing that with support. and the diplomacy that the biden administration is carrying out throughout the region speaks to a broader question as well. it is not just an israel question, it is original question.— original question. how difficult- _ original question. how difficult- because - original question. how difficult- because we i original question. how- difficult- because we were difficult— because we were talking a bit earlier about a possible ground operation. can you give us an idea about how difficult, because you have worked in counterterrorism, this is going to be for israel to carry out, given the situation on the ground, as we heard earlier, and we have seen pictures of the rubble strewn everywhere. it pictures of the rubble strewn everywhere-— everywhere. it is going to be an extremely _ everywhere. it is going to be an extremely difficult - an extremely difficult situation. gaza is one of the most densely packed places on the planet. there are still civilians there, despite the evacuation order. the tunnels and the systems underneath the buildings that hamas has dug over decades are still in existence. in addition, the location of the hostages are still mostly unknown. guarantee that the israeli forces are trying very hard to work out the locations of those hostages so they can try and rescue them. but this is going to be a very difficult house—to—house fight. very difficult house-to-house fiuht. , ., , fight. yes, that certainly seems to _ fight. yes, that certainly seems to be _ fight. yes, that certainly seems to be the - fight. yes, that certainly - seems to be the assessment of many analysts we have spoken to. emily, stay right there. we're going to bring you back into discussion at the in a moment. i am going to look at the broader region now. meanwhile, large protests have erupted across the middle east following the explosion at the al—ahli hospital and deteriorating humanitarian situation in gaza. in the occupied west bank, crowds clashed with israeli forces. smoke from burned tires filled the streets as protesters hurled rocks at security personnel. in a rare move, the egyptian government approved and even organised 27 locations for protesters to gather. in tunisia, pro—palestinian protesters gathered outside the french embassy and condemned western support for israel. hamas is financially backed by iran, iran also finances the hezbollah group in lebanon, which borders israel to the north. let's bring our guests back, so we have you all in this discussion together. suzanne, i want to talk to your particular about the role that iran has played here. we have heard the biden administration and allies around the world warning iran not to get involved. how serious do you think the risk is of that actually happening? well, i think there _ actually happening? well, i think there is _ actually happening? well, i think there is a _ actually happening? well, i think there is a real- actually happening? well, i think there is a real risk. i think there is a real risk. obviously, as he said, iran is an important backer of hamas. in addition to financial backing iran has provided hamas and other militia groups with material support, especially in the form of missiles which hamas and others have used against israel as well as against israel as well as against american interests and positions across the region. for the most part i think the iranians prefer to stand back from the fire and watch the region burn but there are huge risks, particularly if we see continued action on the northern border, the exchange of fire between israel, hamas in fighters southern lebanon as well as hamas, as well as hezbollah, could draw this into a much wider conflict and i think the iranians, while they would prefer to avoid direct fire themselves, it is not inconceivable that they could get into the action.— get into the action. gina, we saw president _ get into the action. gina, we saw president biden - get into the action. gina, we saw president biden sages i get into the action. gina, we i saw president biden sages this evening that he thinks hamas attacked israel as he was urging saudi israel normalisation of ties. do you think you agree with that assessment?— think you agree with that assessment? ~ ~ ., assessment? well, i think that is aood assessment? well, i think that is good reason _ assessment? well, i think that is good reason to _ assessment? well, i think that is good reason to support - assessment? well, i think that is good reason to support that| is good reason to support that assessment. it certainly was changing the focus of the middle east, that it was increasingly moving the palestinian issue away from the centre of what the basis of relations and discussions, negotiation in the region about various issues. that is certainly a part of it. i don't believe that we can ignore the long—standing lack of trust and hope that palestinians have in the palestinian pa, the palestinian authority. that is how hamas got into power in gaza in the first place. so, even though there are all these other reasons that are out there, it is a terrorist organisation, heinous activity, but there are underlying political issues that must be got at once there is time, once the israelis have accomplished their initial goals. but keep in mind in addition to lab and on and the cost of hezbollah getting involved is going to be devastating for the nation of lebanon as well as the demonstrations going on in the west bank. they have been clashes between palestinians and settlers in the west bank. my and settlers in the west bank. my understanding is upwards of 70 palestinians have been killed in the west bank in the last several days. much smaller numbers than what is happening in gaza but it is a testament to how volatile the situation, even beyond the middle east, the demonstrations that you mentioned. they have been in other countries and as far away as malaysia. this is a difficult balance for the government of israel to move forward. it government of israel to move forward. , ., ., ., forward. it is a volatile situation. _ forward. it is a volatile situation. emily, - forward. it is a volatile situation. emily, 1. forward. it is a volatile | situation. emily, iwant forward. it is a volatile i situation. emily, iwant to forward. it is a volatile - situation. emily, i want to get your thoughts on this question as well about the prospect of a normalisation of ties, what role that might have played, as the president indicated? it is hard to say- _ the president indicated? it is hard to say. there _ the president indicated? it is hard to say. there is - the president indicated? it is hard to say. there is a - the president indicated? it 3 hard to say. there is a reason to believe it played aim role. that i do not want to put too much weight on it. an attack like this would take time to plan. there is no guarantee they could get the timing just right to a certain political moment but the palestinians have long look to the rest of the arab world to support their cause and they could have been concerned that this would perhaps sideline them. suzanne, we have seen _ perhaps sideline them. suzanne, we have seen if— perhaps sideline them. suzanne, we have seen if few _ perhaps sideline them. suzanne, we have seen if few analysts - perhaps sideline them. suzanne, we have seen if few analysts on i we have seen if few analysts on bbc in the last few days tell us if we look at the us role in all of this that president biden in his trip to israel, in his fulsome support for israel, is carrying out this bearhug strategy. bring israel close so he can then apply pressure, particularly on questions of protecting civilians in gaza. do you think that is what is behind the sort of support we have seen from the president in the last few days? and mac i think a baseline, the us israeli relationship is a very close partnership, and we are staunch supporters of israel and are prepared to defend israel, particularly when it comes under an unprecedented attack. 50 comes under an unprecedented attack. ., �* ., ., attack. so i don't want to describe _ attack. so i don't want to describe the _ attack. so i don't want to describe the president's. describe the president's engagement in this crisis as purely strategic and opportunistic, trying to push a certain narrative, but we can look back on the pattern that has emerged over the course of prior wars in gaza and the approach of the biden administration has been to give the israelis some space but at a certain point to draw some lines in the sand to ensure that the situation does not escalate out of control, and i think it is quite possible with the biden administration in this heartfelt and genuine expression of the and support for the israeli people is positioning itself to be an honest broker and befriend to israel the government meaning. that is an interesting point. gina, i want to ask you about that because we spoke to republican senator bill cassidy. he had just come back from a trip to israel. we asked him about drawing lines on the sand and he said we have to recognise there is a limit to what the united states or anyone can do. do you agree with that?— anyone can do. do you agree with that? ~ ., _, , . with that? well, of course. we are all sovereign _ with that? well, of course. we are all sovereign nations, - with that? well, of course. we are all sovereign nations, so i are all sovereign nations, so on the one hand certainly the united states does not control the actions of other nations, but it is important that we are that good friend, which is helping israel navigate the space and ensure that as they seek to reach their goals that civilians are taken into account. this is international law. it is humanitarian law. it is the right thing to do. israel has a long history in putting human life first and trying to mitigate against unnecessary human casualties, and so certainly supporting them in those efforts, making sure as they go forward that the world sees that those efforts are being made. this is war, so casualties will happen, but it is important that they be minimised, yes.- but it is important that they be minimised, yes. and i 'ust want to everyone i be minimised, yes. and ijust want to everyone quickly, - be minimised, yes. and ijust want to everyone quickly, a l want to everyone quickly, a final thought on the question, starting with you, emily, what the us needs to do to engage partners in the region. we know he wanted to hold a summit in jordan with the president of egypt and mahmoud abbas and that was cancelled with the hospital struck. what does the us need to do to engage those partners? us need to do to engage those artners? , . , ,, partners? public pressure rarely works. _ partners? public pressure rarely works. in _ partners? public pressure rarely works. in these - partners? public pressure i rarely works. in these sorts partners? public pressure - rarely works. in these sorts of situations that will be a lot of behind—the—scenes diplomacy. there are trusted partnerships that go back decades and he will draw on those to speak truth to people who don't necessarily want to hear a hard truth and that will be important in coming days. suzanne, what is your thoughts? i think emily is exactly right. that— i think emily is exactly right. that kind _ i think emily is exactly right. that kind of quiet diplomacy. these — that kind of quiet diplomacy. these are close relationships and there is a shared objective to avoid — and there is a shared objective to avoid the escalation that would _ to avoid the escalation that would implicate the wider region— would implicate the wider region and to minimise civilian casualties— region and to minimise civilian casualties as we move forward so i casualties as we move forward so i really— casualties as we move forward so i really do think what we saw— so i really do think what we saw from _ so i really do think what we saw from secretary of state anthony _ saw from secretary of state anthony lincoln will continue at many _ anthony lincoln will continue at many levels and i hope it succeeds. at many levels and i hope it succeeds-— succeeds. gina, we have about 30 seconds _ succeeds. gina, we have about 30 seconds to _ succeeds. gina, we have about 30 seconds to get _ succeeds. gina, we have about 30 seconds to get your - succeeds. gina, we have about. 30 seconds to get your thoughts on this as well. the secretary is auoin on this as well. the secretary is going to — on this as well. the secretary is going to be _ on this as well. the secretary is going to be robust - on this as well. the secretary is going to be robust the - is going to be robust the engage in diplomacy, as is everyone else at the department of state and internationally so everyone will be pushing forward to get this in hand as best as possible role reaching the goals. best as possible role reaching the goals-— the goals. gina, suzanne, emil , the goals. gina, suzanne, emily. very _ the goals. gina, suzanne, emily, very interesting i emily, very interesting thoughts. thank you forjoining us on bbc news tonight. great to have you on. and ending now on a reminder of the human cost of war. earlier, my colleague caitriona perry spoke to bushra khalidi, west bank policy lead for oxfam, who is originally from gaza and has been working on the aid response since the humanitarian crisis began. she shared an emotional message from one of her colleagues in gaza. he said, "the situation is getting worse day after day. "finally, i managed to get bread forfive shekel, "but it will only last for half a day. "when i was walking to the bakery, i saw people "who came from gaza sleeping in their car because they "were not able to find shelter. "i saw people sleeping in shops, in the streets, "on the asphalt, without any mattresses nor blankets. "it's a terrible situation they're suffering. "on my way back home, i found two children alone. "they were crying. "they told me they were in an unrwa shelter, "but their parents went to get food and didn't come back. "we're looking for them. "we can't find them. "i was afraid to lose those children, so i took them to a shop owner from khan younis who knows the area and maybe could help them. "we don't have electricity, we don't have water. "we're buying fuel at double its costs. "we rented a generator at a high costjust to pump "water for two hours. "we were able to buy water for double the price, "but it can only cover the need for one day. "we're not hungry. "we have a little food, but very limited choices, "every day, i hear my daughter and my son — �*dad, i want to return back to gaza.�* �*why, dad?�* �*i want to go back to gaza because i want my uniform. �*i want to go and play football.�* "it's difficult to go. "the situation is risky. "insha'allah, you'll get your uniform and you can go "back to the football club. "my children are deeply affected by what happened "at the hospital the day before yesterday. "they are scared. "they didn't know how to make sense of it. "it's difficult to understand why people are being targeted "like this and they are afraid they will be targeted "ina similarway. "we truly hope for a future where everyone is happy "and safe and where the humanitarian rules "are followed, to ensure protection for all." thank you for watching this special report on the israel—gaza war. and rememberfor the very latest, you can head over to our website. or check out our app. we have reports from our correspondents in israel, gaza, and around the world. and all the reaction about our top story today — the release of two us hostages held by hamas. we are going to bring you some live pictures of gaza at this hour. let's take a look at the scene there. as you can see, it is quite dark as electricity fuel has been running out. we have been checking in on the humanitarian crisis there. we are expecting that the possibility of this weekend aid convoys held up at the rafah crossing in egypt might be able to enter gaza. there are negotiations happening at the moment to allow those aid convoysinit moment to allow those aid convoys in it so that is the hope that they will reach this weekend. we saw the un secretary general advocating for that on the ground so we will keep an eye on that and keep you updated. thank you for watching bbc news. hello. for some places, the flooding situation could get worse before it gets better, not least in eastern scotland, where we have this new red warning from the met office. further rain through the day on saturday, falling on top of what we've already had. this is friday's rainfall radar. the rain was pretty relentless across eastern scotland and also northern england, parts of east anglia, the north midlands, north wales — huge amounts of rain. we've seen widespread flooding, and this met office amber warning remains in force through the first parts of saturday morning. but of greatest concern, i think, is this red warning covering parts of angus and southern aberdeenshire, a further 100 millimetres of rain, further significant flooding and a danger to life. amber warnings covering larger parts of eastern and northern scotland, as this rain just keeps on coming through the day tomorrow. for england and wales, broadly speaking, a drier day. this band of showery rain will push eastwards. could see hefty downpours skirting the south east corner. northern ireland probably having some of the best of the weather — largely dry, just the odd shower, some spells of sunshine. windy in the south of england and the channel islands, still windy in north—east scotland. but for many northern parts of the uk, not as windy as it has been. temperatures north to south, 8 to 16 degrees. now, this heavy rain continues into saturday evening, but it will clear northwards overnight, this band of showery rain pushing away from eastern england. and then things do turn drier. yes, a few showers. i think there'll be some mist patches around as well. but a drier start to sunday morning as an area of low pressure tends to swirl away north—eastwards, and this very, very weak ridge of high pressure, you can't see much of it here on the weather chart, but there is some slightly higher pressure just toppling through, and that means drierweather, more in the way of sunshine. yes, there will be some showers, but certainly not as wet as it has been. lighter winds, temperatures of 12 to 16 degrees. so a much calmer day to end the weekend. but then as we head into next week, well, another area of low pressure looks set to push up from the south. this one probably not as potent, but it will still bring further rain in places where we really do not need it. so, the outlook for next week is pretty unsettled. there will be some heavy rain around at times. will be quite windy but with some drier interludes. voiceover: this is bbc news. we will have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. this week, we are going atomic at the european organization for nuclear research, cern. we will look at the cutting—edge cancer treatments that are foxing the physicists. i find it fascinating because it does not talk to my physics brain. so, i am curious to see whether it will bring something or not. how does science become fiction? we will meet an author looking for disaster. we want conflict. we want to see things falling apart. that is where the interesting thing is for a fiction writer. and then there is a scientist with an experiment that could change our understanding of everything. that is a completely unanticipated result — new physics and probably a nobel prize for somebody who happens to be involved. cern is one of the most famous centres for science in the world.

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