let's begin with the bbc news from deena campbell, good morning. good morning, rachel is not ministers say they took the decision to implement emergency measures at more than 100 schools in england because of faulty concrete because evidence emerged about the material in the summer. some schools are closed until safety were completed and students forced to have lessons online or in other buildings was that labour has called on the government to publish the full list of expected schools. train drivers are on strike today leaving large parts of england without rail services. members of the aslef union at more than a dozen companies are walking out as part of their long—running dispute about pay. the nationwide building society says house prices have seen their biggest annual decline since 2009. the mortgage lender said prices fell by 5.3% last month, compared with the year before. e—scooters for public hire are banned today on the streets of paris, just five years after they were introduced. a large majority of parisi voted for the change during a referendum in april. good morning everyone, great to have your company here, whether you are listening on 5 live or watching us on bbc news or bbc two, lovely to have your company. it is the 1st of september today so it feels like summer is well and truly over, never mind the weather, and you are getting ready to pack the kids back to school. but imagine gating notification they can't return and thatis notification they can't return and that is the reality for thousands of families potentially across england this morning, as it has emerged that a number of schools have this faulty concrete known as raac, which has a 30 year shelf life. so we have always known that at some stage it would need to be looked at within school buildings but suddenly concern has really ramped up over the last couple of months or so and the last couple of months or so and the department for education have decided it is a safety first measure, i guess. they have to be cautious. a number of schools will have to be close or partially close or put in immediate mitigations to make sure they are safe for students. when you look at the overall picture, 100 schools out of, what, 21 yard thousand in england? we are talking about a tiny percentage but if your child is at one of those schools, that won't mean anything, you willjust be concerned that they can go in and learn safely. so what should happen, who should pay for it and why is this so last minute? why were we not able to plan for this better in advance? what is going on? we would like to hearfrom advance? what is going on? we would like to hear from you from this morning and if you have thoughts or opinions you want to share even if your school is not affected, we would love to hear from you. let's go to a couple of experts straightaway, head teachers, they are the experts in all of this, both in leicester. kaz ivins from parks primary in leicester.— in leicester. kaz ivins from parks primary in leicester.- lootl primary in leicester. hello. loot which -- — primary in leicester. hello. loot which -- luke — primary in leicester. hello. loot which -- luke whitney - primary in leicester. hello. loot which -- luke whitney joining i primary in leicester. hello. loot| which -- luke whitney joining us primary in leicester. hello. loot. which -- luke whitney joining us as which —— luke whitneyjoining us as well, good morning. which -- luke whitney “oining us as well, good morning._ which -- luke whitney “oining us as well, good morningi do - which —— luke whitneyjoining us as well, good morning. hello. do you know each — well, good morning. hello. do you know each other? _ well, good morning. hello. do you know each other? yes, _ well, good morning. hello. do you know each other? yes, very - well, good morning. hello. do you know each other? yes, very well. | well, good morning. hello. do you i know each other? yes, very well. you can say hello — know each other? yes, very well. you can say hello to _ know each other? yes, very well. you can say hello to each _ know each other? yes, very well. you can say hello to each other _ know each other? yes, very well. you can say hello to each other in - know each other? yes, very well. you can say hello to each other in that - can say hello to each other in that case. ., ., y ., can say hello to each other in that case. ., ., y., ., can say hello to each other in that case— how i can say hello to each other in that| case— how you case. how are you doing? how you doin: ? case. how are you doing? how you doing? you — case. how are you doing? how you doing? you have _ case. how are you doing? how you doing? you have both _ case. how are you doing? how you doing? you have both been - case. how are you doing? how you. doing? you have both been affected b this doing? you have both been affected by this issue — doing? you have both been affected by this issue of _ doing? you have both been affected by this issue of raac, _ doing? you have both been affected by this issue of raac, what's - doing? you have both been affected by this issue of raac, what's been l by this issue of raac, what's been going on at your school? like by this issue of raac, what's been going on at your school?— going on at your school? like the ministers have _ going on at your school? like the ministers have said _ going on at your school? like the ministers have said they - going on at your school? like the ministers have said they did, - going on at your school? like the| ministers have said they did, they did surveys on all the schools. they found we had raac and they come and do an intrusive survey and that's when overnight things changed quite rapidly. we were closed overnight for almost all of our schools. we are allowed to keep our year one and two classes in place and reception because they are downstairs and they don't have raac. we had to bring in portaloos. all our kitchens and dining rooms and halls so we had to think about catering. then there is the sudden rush to get as much out of a possible as well as a sudden rush to hang for children from six classes. it rush to hang for children from six classes. ,., , ~' rush to hang for children from six classes. , ~ ., ., , classes. it sounds like an absolute nightmare- _ classes. it sounds like an absolute nightmare. this _ classes. it sounds like an absolute nightmare. this was _ classes. it sounds like an absolute nightmare. this was back - classes. it sounds like an absolute nightmare. this was back in - classes. it sounds like an absolute nightmare. this was back in may, | classes. it sounds like an absolute i nightmare. this was back in may, am i right? so you are not one of the 104 schools just notified? in i right? so you are not one of the 104 schoolsjust notified?- i right? so you are not one of the 104 schools just notified? 104 schools 'ust notified? in may i didn't 104 schools 'ust notified? in may i dun-t think — 104 schoolsjust notified? in may i didn't think very _ 104 schoolsjust notified? in may i didn't think very lucky _ 104 schoolsjust notified? in may i didn't think very lucky but - 104 schoolsjust notified? in may i didn't think very lucky but now - 104 schoolsjust notified? in may i didn't think very lucky but now i'm sitting here and thinking i am quite lucky because we are now kind of over the other side. we are now settled into accommodation and we have got all the resources in the right place. we have got facilities, kind of facilities for lunches, not ideal at the moment, and we have toilets in place and now we are working on the temporary build which will go in ourfield so we can working on the temporary build which will go in our field so we can all be back together and then looking at what will happen with the original site and see what they are going to do with that. 50 site and see what they are going to do with that-— do with that. so you are several ste -s do with that. so you are several steps down _ do with that. so you are several steps down the _ do with that. so you are several steps down the road. _ do with that. so you are several steps down the road. a - do with that. so you are several steps down the road. a lot - do with that. so you are several steps down the road. a lot of. do with that. so you are several. steps down the road. a lot of head teachers will be just trying to get their heads around this this morning. are you saying you are not all still together as a school, are you all over the place? the all still together as a school, are you all over the place?— you all over the place? the laa worked really _ you all over the place? the laa worked really well _ you all over the place? the laa worked really well with - you all over the place? the laa worked really well with us. - you all over the place? the laa| worked really well with us. next you all over the place? the laa. worked really well with us. next to our school is a sure start centre, so a child centre and they were hosting lots of the nhs medical staff, midwifery and the community groups. so they were moved out and it gave us two classrooms and a place to put our nursery. that is within walking distance, so very close to our school and leads into as all field. very convenient. next to them was another building that had a special needs teaching service in, quite big rooms that we could see how we could work those into classrooms on a temporary measure. so within four days, we packed up all of those rooms, all of their stock rooms and offices. the nhs staff were decamped either back into working at home or into other child centres around the authority. the local authority offices, so we're talking hundreds of staff and hundreds of pieces of resources that were in here, where then moved out in orderfor us within were in here, where then moved out in order for us within four days to bring in removalfirms to bring out things in and then we reopen for children. ~ ., ., ~ ., ., children. wow, wow. what about you, luke, a children. wow, wow. what about you, luke. a similar— children. wow, wow. what about you, luke, a similar story _ children. wow, wow. what about you, luke, a similar story where _ children. wow, wow. what about you, luke, a similar story where you - children. wow, wow. what about you, luke, a similar story where you are? i luke, a similar story where you are? very similar, rachel. we had our recommendation in april. we were given— recommendation in april. we were given 24— recommendation in april. we were given 24 hours to vacate the premises _ given 24 hours to vacate the premises. for us, that was obviously a shock _ premises. for us, that was obviously a shock. raac survey took place and we had _ a shock. raac survey took place and we had a _ a shock. raac survey took place and we had a period of time to move everything — we had a period of time to move everything out of the building. then we had _ everything out of the building. then we had to— everything out of the building. then we had to sort out alternative accommodation. for us, that was a lot more _ accommodation. for us, that was a lot more challenging than i would have liked. so we ended up having four sites— have liked. so we ended up having four sites for our children, our whole — four sites for our children, our whole school was closed, 475 kids whole school was closed, 475 kids who literally had no education on the following monday. so we managed to -et the following monday. so we managed to get a _ the following monday. so we managed to get a placement for our nursery and reception children. a beautiful house _ and reception children. a beautiful house in_ and reception children. a beautiful house in the middle of the park, it sounds _ house in the middle of the park, it sounds idyllic but it is not school. we obviously do the best that we can. we obviously do the best that we can 0ur— we obviously do the best that we can. ourfriends we obviously do the best that we can. our friends at the local mosque gifted _ can. our friends at the local mosque gifted us— can. our friends at the local mosque gifted us the community centre, said that is— gifted us the community centre, said that is where our year one children went _ that is where our year one children went. again, it is a community centre. — went. again, it is a community centre. not— went. again, it is a community centre, not a school. my very good friend _ centre, not a school. my very good friend jason — centre, not a school. my very good friend jason gave us a temporary modular— friend jason gave us a temporary modular building for years to come in three. _ modular building for years to come in three, fourand modular building for years to come in three, four and five. so they were _ in three, four and five. so they were accommodated in that space but that is— were accommodated in that space but that is in_ were accommodated in that space but that is in the middle of a secondary school _ that is in the middle of a secondary school and — that is in the middle of a secondary school. and then another friend gave us a base _ school. and then another friend gave us a base for— school. and then another friend gave us a base for our year six students. again. _ us a base for our year six students. again, that— us a base for our year six students. again, that is a secondary school and it— again, that is a secondary school and it is— again, that is a secondary school and it isjust thinking in terms of what _ and it isjust thinking in terms of what the — and it isjust thinking in terms of what the additionality around safeguarding, the risk assessment, the fact— safeguarding, the risk assessment, the fact our— safeguarding, the risk assessment, the fact our parents are having to drop— the fact our parents are having to drop their— the fact our parents are having to drop their children up at four separate _ drop their children up at four separate sites. | drop their children up at four separate sites.— drop their children up at four separate sites. drop their children up at four se arate sites. ., , ., ., ., ,~' separate sites. i was going to ask about that, _ separate sites. i was going to ask about that, this _ separate sites. i was going to ask about that, this is _ separate sites. i was going to ask about that, this is really - separate sites. i was going to ask about that, this is really tough i separate sites. i was going to ask about that, this is really tough on parents as well, presumably, because they might have children at different points in the school and therefore they will be all over the place in the mornings and at pick—up. place in the mornings and at ick-u -. . place in the mornings and at --ick-u. . . place in the mornings and at . ick-u . _ ., , ., place in the mornings and at n-ick-u. ., , ., ., ,, pick-up. that is right and obviously it is incumbent _ pick-up. that is right and obviously it is incumbent on _ pick-up. that is right and obviously it is incumbent on us _ pick-up. that is right and obviously it is incumbent on us to _ pick-up. that is right and obviously it is incumbent on us to try - pick-up. that is right and obviously it is incumbent on us to try and - it is incumbent on us to try and facilitate — it is incumbent on us to try and facilitate that in a compassionate, efficient _ facilitate that in a compassionate, efficient way. so what we have done is we _ efficient way. so what we have done is we have _ efficient way. so what we have done is we have provided a bus service. so our— is we have provided a bus service. so our parents who cannot walk or who cannot — so our parents who cannot walk or who cannot drive, or for whatever other— who cannot drive, or for whatever other reason can't get their children— other reason can't get their children to school, then we have provided — children to school, then we have provided a — children to school, then we have provided a daily bus. but staffing is a significant challenge. it does eat into — is a significant challenge. it does eat into learning time for children and of— eat into learning time for children and of course costs are substantial. so yes, _ and of course costs are substantial. so yes, it _ and of course costs are substantial. so yes, it has caused a lot of challenge. but i think we also need to be _ challenge. but i think we also need to be mindful of the fact that parents — to be mindful of the fact that parents are so resilient and they have _ parents are so resilient and they have worked so hard in partnership with us— have worked so hard in partnership with us to — have worked so hard in partnership with us to keep things as stable for the children as we possibly can and i the children as we possibly can and i cannot— the children as we possibly can and i cannot pay— the children as we possibly can and i cannot pay higher tribute to them and everything they have done to support— and everything they have done to support us through this very difficult _ support us through this very difficult time. we support us through this very difficult time.— support us through this very difficult time. ~ ., ., ., difficult time. we would love to hear from _ difficult time. we would love to hear from parents _ difficult time. we would love to hear from parents this - difficult time. we would love to | hear from parents this morning, difficult time. we would love to i hear from parents this morning, if hearfrom parents this morning, if you have been affected by school closures like this orjust learning about them or if you are worried about them or if you are worried about what might be going on at your school, do drop us a line. if it is easier to text, you can do that or you can give us a call. what about the future, what have you been told about what will happen to the whole school site? since been told about what will happen to the whole school site?— the whole school site? since we closed, there _ the whole school site? since we closed, there have _ the whole school site? since we closed, there have been i the whole school site? since we closed, there have been weeklyj closed, there have been weekly meetings. they are setting up a two story temporary build, hopefully, on ourfield and we story temporary build, hopefully, on our field and we hope that will be in place by christmas, which will bring all of our school back together and that for us is really important. i reiterate what luke said about the community. i can't thank community enough for the support they have given us over all of this. we will go to that and then there are questions over the school. if i listen to a minister who has spoken to by local mp, that she has been told the school will be taken down and a new school built. that is not coming out, nobody has agreed to that yet on the call. i think that is likely, though, because it will cost millions to replace the whole roof because it is the whole roof thatis roof because it is the whole roof that is an issue. then it is like throwing good money over bad because the school is quite old. we have had subsidence that resulted in the past, so i think we will probably be looking at a rebuild once we have moved into our temporary accommodation and be able to give back the offices and nhs the buildings we are in at the minute. all of that has cost a lot of money but have you been told none of this will come out of school budget? the move so far — will come out of school budget? the move so far is _ will come out of school budget? tie: move so far is all coming out of school budget. so with storage, movers, toilets, extra resources that we have had to put in place, like i said earlier on, just moving whiteboards off walls in our schools and putting them on stands, we had to buy ten stands for whiteboard so we could get learning going quickly because we comfort them on the walls in temporary buildings. all of that, i think we are sitting at the moment around £30,000. i'm sure luke's is much higher because he has had to do buses and has been going on with this for much longer. this is where we stand at the moment and why at the moment there is nobody putting their hand in their pocket for that, so that is coming out of our school budget. so that is coming out of our school budet, ., ., so that is coming out of our school budaet. , , ., so that is coming out of our school budaet. , ,., , budget. school budgets are squeezed an a at budget. school budgets are squeezed anyway at the — budget. school budgets are squeezed anyway at the moment. _ budget. school budgets are squeezed anyway at the moment. luke, i budget. school budgets are squeezed anyway at the moment. luke, what . anyway at the moment. luke, what about the impact on the children, does it —— it doesn't create a great learning environment? it does it -- it doesn't create a great learning environment?— does it -- it doesn't create a great learning environment? it doesn't and it is this notion _ learning environment? it doesn't and it is this notion that _ learning environment? it doesn't and it is this notion that the _ it is this notion that the relationship children have with the learning _ relationship children have with the learning environment, good schools make _ learning environment, good schools make children feel safe and if they feel safe, — make children feel safe and if they feel safe, they thrive. then if all of a sudden you have to say to your children. _ of a sudden you have to say to your children. you — of a sudden you have to say to your children, you have 24 hours to vacate — children, you have 24 hours to vacate the _ children, you have 24 hours to vacate the building it makes them question— vacate the building it makes them question the safety that has been created _ question the safety that has been created for them within that setting _ created for them within that setting. that is obviously a really significant — setting. that is obviously a really significant challenge for children. but, as— significant challenge for children. but, as we were saying before, over the years. _ but, as we were saying before, over the years, children have had to be resilient — the years, children have had to be resilient. actually, if we don't embrace _ resilient. actually, if we don't embrace challenge, it reduces the opportunity for us to grow and develop — opportunity for us to grow and develop as people. sol opportunity for us to grow and develop as people. so i think it is like all— develop as people. so i think it is like all things, when you are dealing _ like all things, when you are dealing with difficult situations, you just — dealing with difficult situations, you just have to make the most of it. you just have to make the most of it you _ you just have to make the most of it you have — you just have to make the most of it. you have to really reiterate and strengthen — it. you have to really reiterate and strengthen that sense of community, the support that we will give to each _ the support that we will give to each other and i am proud of our community— each other and i am proud of our community and just as proud of our children— community and just as proud of our children who have embraced this. they— children who have embraced this. they have — children who have embraced this. they have gone over and above in terms _ they have gone over and above in terms of— they have gone over and above in terms of the way that they have adjusted — terms of the way that they have adjusted to their new environment. education _ adjusted to their new environment. education children in the middle of a secondary school is a massive challenge — a secondary school is a massive challenge but the children have done outstandingly well and i could not be more — outstandingly well and i could not be more proud of their parents and children— be more proud of their parents and children at— be more proud of their parents and children at mayflower. are be more proud of their parents and children at mayflower.— be more proud of their parents and children at mayflower. are you both back in school— children at mayflower. are you both back in school already? _ children at mayflower. are you both back in school already? i _ children at mayflower. are you both back in school already? i know- back in school already? i know leicestershire schools go back earlier? . . leicestershire schools go back earlier? , . .., earlier? yes, the children came in on tuesday. _ earlier? yes, the children came in on tuesday, after— earlier? yes, the children came in on tuesday, after the _ earlier? yes, the children came in on tuesday, after the bank- earlier? yes, the children came in l on tuesday, after the bank holiday. and how is that going so far, cas? it is going well. because we got set “p it is going well. because we got set up quite quickly and the children are so adaptable and have just got on with it, obviously some of them have notjust moved teachers but buildings as well but they have settled amazingly well. to be honest, the day after we opened, i took some photos to send to the lea took some photos to send to the lea to say almost, different learning environment, same learning attitude, because the children... i walked into the classrooms and the children were working just as they were, slightly smaller rooms, different rooms, teachers have done amazing jobs getting the display boards up to make that room feel like their classroom. so they have been brilliant, yes, absolutely fabulous. well good luck with the new term and with the ongoing building works as well. thank you to both of you, cas evans, the head at a primary, parks primary in leicester and luke whitney the head of mayflower primary. both schools are affected by this raac, this aerated concrete, but they knew about it back in the spring so that is when their schools had to shift locations. somebody says here, well done, england. wales haven't even carried out raac surveys on their schools. nobody knows how many children returning to safe schools. the welsh government is currently surveying the country's schools and colleges to check if any were made with this raac. but we don't necessarily know the full extent of it in england because not all schools have completed the survey in england either. as far as scotland is concerned, this could affect many different public buildings, i don't have figures for schools in scotland but we are told more than 250 nhs buildings could have been built using this reinforced auto concrete. never have i wanted to speak to a concrete expert more. let's bring in a processor in structural engineering and materials from loughborough university, good morning. goad university, good morning. good morninu. university, good morning. good morning- and — university, good morning. good morning. and we _ university, good morning. good morning. and we also i university, good morning. good morning. and we also have i university, good morning. good i morning. and we also have grainne hallahan, former— morning. and we also have grainne hallahan, former teacher i morning. and we also have grainne hallahan, former teacher and i morning. and we also have grainne i hallahan, former teacher and analyst for the times educational supplement. good morning. good morninu. supplement. good morning. good morning- let _ supplement. good morning. good morning. let me _ supplement. good morning. good morning. let me play— supplement. good morning. good morning. let me play you i supplement. good morning. good morning. let me play you a i supplement. good morning. good morning. let me play you a bit i supplement. good morning. good morning. let me play you a bit of| morning. let me play you a bit of the school _ morning. let me play you a bit of the school minister _ morning. let me play you a bit of the school minister nick i morning. let me play you a bit of the school minister nick gibb - the school minister nick gibb speaking this morning, on bbc breakfast. here he is explaining the situation and why it was the guidance of the schools was only updated yesterday. well, we have been very assiduous. well, we have been very assiduous. we are _ well, we have been very assiduous. we are being — well, we have been very assiduous. we are being very— well, we have been very assiduous. we are being very proactive - well, we have been very assiduous. we are being very proactive in - we are being very proactive in assessing _ we are being very proactive in assessing the _ we are being very proactive in assessing the schools. - we are being very proactive in assessing the schools. we - we are being very proactive in. assessing the schools. we have we are being very proactive in - assessing the schools. we have been working _ assessing the schools. we have been working on— assessing the schools. we have been working on this — assessing the schools. we have been working on this since _ assessing the schools. we have been working on this since 2022, - assessing the schools. we have been working on this since 2022, prior- assessing the schools. we have been working on this since 2022, prior to i working on this since 2022, prior to that 2018. — working on this since 2022, prior to that 2018. with _ working on this since 2022, prior to that 2018, with advice _ working on this since 2022, prior to that 2018, with advice to _ working on this since 2022, prior to that 2018, with advice to schools i that 2018, with advice to schools about _ that 2018, with advice to schools about raac _ that 2018, with advice to schools about raac. we _ that 2018, with advice to schools about raac. we have _ that 2018, with advice to schools about raac. we have sent- that 2018, with advice to schoolsl about raac. we have sent survey questionnaires— about raac. we have sent survey questionnaires to _ about raac. we have sent survey questionnaires to all— about raac. we have sent survey questionnaires to all schools - about raac. we have sent survey questionnaires to all schools in i about raac. we have sent surveyl questionnaires to all schools in the country. _ questionnaires to all schools in the country. so — questionnaires to all schools in the country. so we _ questionnaires to all schools in the country, so we can _ questionnaires to all schools in the country, so we can identify- questionnaires to all schools in the country, so we can identify where i country, so we can identify where raac— country, so we can identify where raac is— country, so we can identify where raac is in— country, so we can identify where raac is in our— country, so we can identify where raac is in our schools, _ country, so we can identify where raac is in our schools, more - country, so we can identify where| raac is in our schools, more than any other— raac is in our schools, more than any other government _ raac is in our schools, more than any other government in - raac is in our schools, more than any other government in the - raac is in our schools, more than. any other government in the world. those _ any other government in the world. those surveys — any other government in the world. those surveys have _ any other government in the world. those surveys have come _ any other government in the world. those surveys have come back. - any other government in the world. i those surveys have come back. the vast majority — those surveys have come back. the vast majority show _ those surveys have come back. the vast majority show no _ those surveys have come back. the vast majority show no raac- those surveys have come back. the vast majority show no raac and - those surveys have come back. the i vast majority show no raac and even when _ vast majority show no raac and even when schools — vast majority show no raac and even when schools send _ vast majority show no raac and even when schools send back _ vast majority show no raac and even when schools send back a _ vast majority show no raac and even when schools send back a survey- when schools send back a survey saying _ when schools send back a survey saying they — when schools send back a survey saying they think— when schools send back a survey saying they think they _ when schools send back a survey saying they think they might - when schools send back a surveyl saying they think they might have raac, _ saying they think they might have raac, we — saying they think they might have raac, we send _ saying they think they might have raac, we send in— saying they think they might have raac, we send in surveyors. - saying they think they might have raac, we send in surveyors. we. saying they think they might have - raac, we send in surveyors. we have been _ raac, we send in surveyors. we have been doing _ raac, we send in surveyors. we have been doing that — raac, we send in surveyors. we have been doing that all _ raac, we send in surveyors. we have been doing that all this _ raac, we send in surveyors. we have been doing that all this year- raac, we send in surveyors. we have been doing that all this year and - been doing that all this year and last year— been doing that all this year and last year as _ been doing that all this year and last year as well. _ been doing that all this year and last year as well. the _ been doing that all this year and last year as well. the majority. been doing that all this year and - last year as well. the majority show there _ last year as well. the majority show there is— last year as well. the majority show there is no— last year as well. the majority show there is no raac. _ last year as well. the majority show there is no raac. where _ last year as well. the majority show there is no raac. where raac- last year as well. the majority show there is no raac. where raac hasl there is no raac. where raac has been _ there is no raac. where raac has been identified, _ there is no raac. where raac has been identified, we _ there is no raac. where raac has been identified, we then, - there is no raac. where raac has been identified, we then, our- there is no raac. where raac hasi been identified, we then, our policy until yesterday _ been identified, we then, our policy until yesterday was— been identified, we then, our policy until yesterday was to _ been identified, we then, our policy until yesterday was to assess - until yesterday was to assess whether _ until yesterday was to assess whether that _ until yesterday was to assess whether that raac _ until yesterday was to assess whether that raac is - until yesterday was to assess whether that raac is in- until yesterday was to assess whether that raac is in a - until yesterday was to assess i whether that raac is in a critical condition. — whether that raac is in a critical condition. in— whether that raac is in a critical condition, in which _ whether that raac is in a critical condition, in which case - whether that raac is in a critical condition, in which case the - condition, in which case the buildings _ condition, in which case the buildings are— condition, in which case the buildings are taken - condition, in which case the buildings are taken out- condition, in which case the buildings are taken out of. condition, in which case the i buildings are taken out of use, condition, in which case the - buildings are taken out of use, or is not _ buildings are taken out of use, or is not critical. _ buildings are taken out of use, or is not critical. what _ buildings are taken out of use, or is not critical. what we _ buildings are taken out of use, or is not critical. what we learned . is not critical. what we learned over— is not critical. what we learned over the — is not critical. what we learned overthe summer— is not critical. what we learned overthe summerwas- is not critical. what we learned over the summer was that - is not critical. what we learned. over the summer was that there is not critical. what we learned - over the summer was that there are a number— over the summer was that there are a numberof— over the summer was that there are a number of cases— over the summer was that there are a number of cases in— over the summer was that there are a number of cases in schools _ over the summer was that there are a number of cases in schools but - over the summer was that there are a number of cases in schools but also . number of cases in schools but also non-school — number of cases in schools but also non—school buildings _ number of cases in schools but also non—school buildings and _ number of cases in schools but also non—school buildings and in - number of cases in schools but also| non—school buildings and in england and outside — non—school buildings and in england and outside england _ non—school buildings and in england and outside england where - non—school buildings and in england and outside england where raac. non—school buildings and in england. and outside england where raac that we previously— and outside england where raac that we previously thought _ and outside england where raac that we previously thought was _ and outside england where raac that we previously thought was safe - and outside england where raac that we previously thought was safe or- we previously thought was safe or low risk— we previously thought was safe or low risk actually _ we previously thought was safe or low risk actually has _ we previously thought was safe or low risk actually has failed. - we previously thought was safe or low risk actually has failed. so - we previously thought was safe or low risk actually has failed. so wej low risk actually has failed. so we took swift — low risk actually has failed. so we took swift action _ low risk actually has failed. so we took swift action to _ low risk actually has failed. so we took swift action to change - low risk actually has failed. so we took swift action to change the i took swift action to change the guidance — took swift action to change the guidance yesterday— took swift action to change the guidance yesterday to - took swift action to change the guidance yesterday to say - took swift action to change the guidance yesterday to say that | took swift action to change the l guidance yesterday to say that in those _ guidance yesterday to say that in those schools _ guidance yesterday to say that in those schools where _ guidance yesterday to say that in those schools where we - guidance yesterday to say that in those schools where we have - those schools where we have identified _ those schools where we have identified raac, _ those schools where we have identified raac, the - those schools where we have identified raac, the 156 - those schools where we have - identified raac, the 156 schools, we are now _ identified raac, the 156 schools, we are now changing _ identified raac, the 156 schools, we are now changing the _ identified raac, the 156 schools, we are now changing the policy - identified raac, the 156 schools, we are now changing the policy so - identified raac, the 156 schools, we are now changing the policy so the l are now changing the policy so the raac_ are now changing the policy so the raac that — are now changing the policy so the raac that we _ are now changing the policy so the raac that we previously _ are now changing the policy so the raac that we previously thought l are now changing the policy so the . raac that we previously thought was a risk— raac that we previously thought was a risk we _ raac that we previously thought was a risk we are — raac that we previously thought was a risk we are now— raac that we previously thought was a risk we are now saying _ raac that we previously thought was a risk we are now saying we - raac that we previously thought was a risk we are now saying we need - raac that we previously thought was a risk we are now saying we need toi a risk we are now saying we need to take those _ a risk we are now saying we need to take those buildings _ a risk we are now saying we need to take those buildings out _ a risk we are now saying we need to take those buildings out of- a risk we are now saying we need to take those buildings out of action. l take those buildings out of action. theirs _ take those buildings out of action. theirs is _ take those buildings out of action. theirs is a — take those buildings out of action. theirs is a precautionary— take those buildings out of action. theirs is a precautionary approachj theirs is a precautionary approach because _ theirs is a precautionary approach because we — theirs is a precautionary approach because we put— theirs is a precautionary approach because we put safety— theirs is a precautionary approach because we put safety above - theirs is a precautionary approach because we put safety above all. theirs is a precautionary approach i because we put safety above all else but we _ because we put safety above all else but we are _ because we put safety above all else but we are able _ because we put safety above all else but we are able to _ because we put safety above all else but we are able to do _ because we put safety above all else but we are able to do this _ because we put safety above all else but we are able to do this because . but we are able to do this because this government _ but we are able to do this because this government has _ but we are able to do this because this government has identified, i this government has identified, through— this government has identified, through our— this government has identified, through our extensive - this government has identified, through our extensive surveys. this government has identified, i through our extensive surveys of schools. — through our extensive surveys of schools. where _ through our extensive surveys of schools, where raac— through our extensive surveys of schools, where raac lies- through our extensive surveys of schools, where raac lies in- through our extensive surveys of schools, where raac lies in the| schools, where raac lies in the school— schools, where raac lies in the school system _ school system. that _ school system. that was - school system. that was nick. school system. - that was nick gibb, the school system. _ that was nick gibb, the schools minister speaking to bbc breakfast a little earlier today. so, minister speaking to bbc breakfast a little earliertoday. so, reinforced aerated concrete, what is the problem with it, chris? hello, good mornin: problem with it, chris? hello, good morning foster _ problem with it, chris? hello, good morning foster what _ problem with it, chris? hello, good morning foster what is _ problem with it, chris? hello, good morning foster what is a _ problem with it, chris? hello, good morning foster what is a problem? | problem with it, chris? hello, good i morning foster what is a problem? as the name suggests, is a different type of concrete. it has a reinforcement income steel bars to give it structural strength. it is also clay rd and aerated, which gives it lightweight properties and thermal properties but it's concrete so it has cement in there and that's what makes it hard. we have been using it in this country since the 50s, 60s, and it still manufactured in thousands of factories over the world. if used appropriately it's a fine structural materials but nothing fundamentally wrong with the approach. however, what has happened, over the decades it doesn't wear well if it is out in the elements. it is often used in full at rooves which need to be waterproofed and if you don't maintain the roof well, the water can get in. it might corrode the steel inside the raac. it is aerated so it can soak up the water and therefore increase its own weight and then it can suffer over time. was ever suitable school buildings? 0h, was ever suitable school buildings? oh, yes. if you install it properly, design it properly and look after it properly it can be there for years to come. ~ ., ., g; :: properly it can be there for years to come. ~ ., ., ;;:: , ., to come. what about the 30 year shelf life we _ to come. what about the 30 year shelf life we keep _ to come. what about the 30 year shelf life we keep hearing - to come. what about the 30 year| shelf life we keep hearing about? to come. what about the 30 year- shelf life we keep hearing about? no shelf life we keep hearing about? fir: material has a 30 year perfect life and stops at 31 years. all the materials slowly deteriorate over time. when you are designing it and building it, 30 years ago, you have to look into the future and think, do i want to design it for about 30 years, a100? our building codes now and back then suggest your building should last at least 30, a0 years. our bridges and we say 100 or 120 years and they slowly deteriorate over time to stop the problem is, you don't know how it will deteriorate because every building is treated differently. it has different numbers of people walking on the floors, the weather is different and it is maintained differently. so fast forward 30 years, even if they were built the same, those buildings will be in different conditions. some will be fine, some will be suffering. the schools are _ fine, some will be suffering. the schools are heavily used, of course they are, expect in the holidays. is this an issue of maintenance? grainne hallahan can help us out with this, who ultimately should be overseeing that, but if they schools had been better maintained they wouldn't necessarily be facing these issues? . , wouldn't necessarily be facing these issues? ., , , , wouldn't necessarily be facing these issues? . , , , �* wouldn't necessarily be facing these issues? ., , , , �* ., issues? partly, yes. but i would say we have a very _ issues? partly, yes. but i would say we have a very ageing _ issues? partly, yes. but i would say we have a very ageing building - issues? partly, yes. but i would say| we have a very ageing building stock in general in this country, right back to the victorian era and the industrial revolution and very little of it has been maintained properly because it is very expensive to do it properly. even normal concrete, steel, masonry and not maintained properly. and schools, it is one of those because they are so tight for money. so it is partly spending the money on it and the expertise and what do you spend money on to maintain it? when you look at raac, you look up your ad and you think it is normal concrete, not raac because it looks exactly the same. always been plastered over with a false ceiling so you can't even see it.- so you can't even see it. grainne hallahan. _ so you can't even see it. grainne hallahan. i _ so you can't even see it. grainne hallahan, i think, _ so you can't even see it. grainne hallahan, ithink, i'm _ so you can't even see it. grainne hallahan, i think, i'm sure - so you can't even see it. grainne hallahan, i think, i'm sure we i so you can't even see it. grainne i hallahan, i think, i'm sure we have been talking about raac for ages now we know it's been an issue in schools. and still slightly confused as to why it has up now. you schools. and still slightly confused as to why it has up now.— schools. and still slightly confused as to why it has up now. you and all ofthe as to why it has up now. you and all of the head — as to why it has up now. you and all of the head teachers _ as to why it has up now. you and all of the head teachers that _ as to why it has up now. you and all of the head teachers that are - of the head teachers that are telling — of the head teachers that are telling me that they have been told at the _ telling me that they have been told at the last — telling me that they have been told at the last minute they will have to have school closures and they will have _ have school closures and they will have to _ have school closures and they will have to close parts of their building _ have to close parts of their building. they knew they had this problem — building. they knew they had this problem for months, years. this is ongoing _ problem for months, years. this is ongoing. what is also, you raise the issue _ ongoing. what is also, you raise the issue about — ongoing. what is also, you raise the issue about funding, the maintenance of schools. _ issue about funding, the maintenance of schools, we know this has been a problem _ of schools, we know this has been a problem for— of schools, we know this has been a problem for years and years and years _ problem for years and years and years the — problem for years and years and years. the government had this ten years. the government had this ten year school— years. the government had this ten year school building plan and they are are _ year school building plan and they are are way behind on their targets. they can't— are are way behind on their targets. they can't get the contract and all the work— they can't get the contract and all the work started, the project started _ the work started, the project started. our school buildings are in an started. 0ur school buildings are in an awful— started. our school buildings are in an awful state and this, what has happened. — an awful state and this, what has happened, what we're hearing about this week, _ happened, what we're hearing about this week, is part of a bigger brobtem _ this week, is part of a bigger problem where we have been under funding, _ problem where we have been under funding, the capital funding that goes _ funding, the capital funding that goes into schools, underfunding and under— goes into schools, underfunding and under resourcing schools for a long time and _ under resourcing schools for a long time and this is what happens when you don't— time and this is what happens when you don't properly look after school buildings _ you don't properly look after school buildinus. ~ ,, ., ., ~' you don't properly look after school buildinus. ~ i. ., ., ,, ., buildings. when you look at the firures buildings. when you look at the figures overall, _ buildings. when you look at the figures overall, just _ buildings. when you look at the figures overall, just reading - buildings. when you look at the | figures overall, just reading this morning, this is in england by the way, 21,600 state schools, educating 8.a million children, estimated 38% of school buildings believed to be past their design life. so this is well beyond just the raac problem. it means 700,000 pupils are learning in buildings of which the department for education believes require major rebuilding or refurbishment. 500 schools deem to be in the most urgent need. the government does say they have their school rebuilding programme, which is on the case with theirs and they are assisting those 500 schools. theirs and they are assisting those 500 schools-— 500 schools. they do and this is art of 500 schools. they do and this is part of the _ 500 schools. they do and this is part of the problem. _ 500 schools. they do and this is part of the problem. they - 500 schools. they do and this is part of the problem. they ask i 500 schools. they do and this is| part of the problem. they ask for this money— part of the problem. they ask for this money from the treasury, the figure _ this money from the treasury, the figure you — this money from the treasury, the figure you are quoting came from the report— figure you are quoting came from the report from _ figure you are quoting came from the report from the national audit office — report from the national audit office and they raised this issue, we are _ office and they raised this issue, we are talking about 2020 and they said we _ we are talking about 2020 and they said we need 7 billion and they gave them _ said we need 7 billion and they gave them 31 _ said we need 7 billion and they gave them 3.1. there is a huge gap between _ them 3.1. there is a huge gap between what we need and what we are getting _ between what we need and what we are getting. this has been raised for quite _ getting. this has been raised for quite some time. they need major rebuilding, — quite some time. they need major rebuilding, they need refurbishment and as— rebuilding, they need refurbishment and as a _ rebuilding, they need refurbishment and as a consequence, learning is taking _ and as a consequence, learning is taking place in less than ideal conditions and i think it is admirable the teachers who had speaking — admirable the teachers who had speaking earlier about how the children— speaking earlier about how the children have continued learning, they are — children have continued learning, they are doing so well, the teachers, it's all been this right, we will— teachers, it's all been this right, we will get — teachers, it's all been this right, we will get on with it and do it and ithink— we will get on with it and do it and i think that — we will get on with it and do it and i think that is to their credit. however. _ i think that is to their credit. however, we know for our most vulnerable — however, we know for our most vulnerable children, children who have _ vulnerable children, children who have special educational needs, children— have special educational needs, children who come from more disruptive _ children who come from more disruptive homes, that going into school— disruptive homes, that going into school and — disruptive homes, that going into school and having a safe, quiet, secure _ school and having a safe, quiet, secure learning environment is all the more — secure learning environment is all the more important and it is those children— the more important and it is those children who are being let down the most _ children who are being let down the most by— children who are being let down the most by this disruption that is happening now. most by this disruption that is happening now— most by this disruption that is happening now. let's go to one of those schools _ happening now. let's go to one of those schools that _ happening now. let's go to one of those schools that is _ happening now. let's go to one of those schools that is affected - happening now. let's go to one of those schools that is affected by l those schools that is affected by this. we don't know the names of the 10a schools, we have not had a list published but a couple of names have emerged, including a school in bingley, in west yorkshire, is that where you are, rowan bridge? where you are, rowan yes, bingley, in west yorkshire, is that where you are, rowan— bingley, in west yorkshire, is that where you are, rowan yes, one of two schools in the — where you are, rowan yes, one of two schools in the bradford _ where you are, rowan yes, one of two schools in the bradford area _ where you are, rowan yes, one of two schools in the bradford area that - schools in the bradford area that have been affected by the raac issue. the school here say they are putting temporary measures in place, which should be in place by the end of the weekend, in time for the start of the school term next year. they have also ordered temporary accommodation to be set up here but thatis accommodation to be set up here but that is going to take several weeks, if not a couple of months to arrive here, so far from if not a couple of months to arrive here, so farfrom an ideal situation, as i'm sure some of your other contributors have been saying, that means schools are scrambling at the last minute to try and sort out what to do. in some cases that is meaning classes being held in other community centres. so children centres, that sort of thing. in some cases, it means classes being held online, the sort of things we have seen since covid. in some cases, children moving children between schools, if they are part of an academy system that are linked together, they move them between the schools. ., ., , . ., schools. there are a bunch of temporary — schools. there are a bunch of temporary stepgap _ schools. there are a bunch of temporary stopgap measures j schools. there are a bunch of - temporary stopgap measures but none of it is ideal and all of it is disruptive. we can see the men in high viz and hard hats behind you so clearly stuff is going on in trying to assist this school. have you managed to speak to, i know families are not back in school, pupils are not back in school but have you spoken to some parents and got a sense of how they have greeted this news? , �* �* sense of how they have greeted this news? , r r ., sense of how they have greeted this news? , “ ., news? yes, the bbc spoke to some arents news? yes, the bbc spoke to some parents outside _ news? yes, the bbc spoke to some parents outside the _ news? yes, the bbc spoke to some parents outside the school - news? yes, the bbc spoke to some parents outside the school here - news? yes, the bbc spoke to some parents outside the school here at i parents outside the school here at cross flats yesterday. i think that... a lot of people's feeling was, i want my children to be safe, i want staff to be safe, clearly if there is a risk to them, i understand why these measures have to be taken. but equally, that is very disruptive if you have children with special educational needs, is one of the parents had, they were clearly worried about it because that was disruption that they could do without. and if you are going to be having your kids at home learning online, that is very disruptive in terms of what your work situation might be and so on. but i think ultimately they all felt that the school was doing its best it very difficult situations to make the best of it but none of it was ideal. yes, and apologies if you said this already but when they do back and are they going to go back next week on the date that they should have been, rowan? on the date that they should have been. rowan?— on the date that they should have been, rowan? , ,, , , ., been, rowan? yes, i think they start back, i been, rowan? yes, i think they start back. i think — been, rowan? yes, i think they start back, i think the — been, rowan? yes, i think they start back, i think the school _ been, rowan? yes, i think they start back, i think the school is _ been, rowan? yes, i think they start back, i think the school is now- back, i think the school is now going to start back on tuesday. exactly what that looks like, i don't know, because the school have not commented yet. we only have the barest outline from bradford city council at the moment, where all the requests for information have been centred on as to what that will look like. they say they are putting interim measures in place but it is not exactly clear what that looks like at the moment. qm. not exactly clear what that looks like at the moment.— not exactly clear what that looks like at the moment. 0k, thank you very much. — like at the moment. 0k, thank you very much, rowan _ like at the moment. 0k, thank you very much, rowan bridge - like at the moment. 0k, thank you very much, rowan bridge in - like at the moment. 0k, thank you | very much, rowan bridge in bingley and west yorkshire. we can go back to chris, our professor in construction, the school minister nick gibb talk about the fact they had been sort of reassessing the information they had about raac in certain schools and he said what had been previously deemed as a blow risk is now thought to be more of a problem and that is why there seems to have all come a little bit last minute. do you understand why suddenly there is the sense of urgency where there wasn't before? i can understand the sense of urgency where there wasn't before? i can understand the sense of urgency. the start of term is the big decision point. this type of research that we have been doing at loughborough university, you don't just do it in one day. it takes many months to build the amount of data and information to give you a confident decision. so the dfa have employed the best engineers in the country, they have been speaking to ourselves and we have been feeding out the research. we spoke to the institute of structural engineers are many others, it's a process of the information emerging and developing. as they go around and inspect all these schools, you build up inspect all these schools, you build up a very good database of what all the schools look like and hence you can refine the problems and what to look for and what to rate it as a risk once you have looked at lots and lots of schools, which is what's been done. and lots of schools, which is what's been done-— been done. they are relying on school staff _ been done. they are relying on school staff reporting - been done. they are relying on school staff reporting and - been done. they are relying on school staff reporting and then | school staff reporting and then sending in surveyors to go and see schools where raac is believed to be present. as nick gibb said earlier, they don't know the full extent of they don't know the full extent of the problem, not all schools have failed in the survey do you have any idea how much further this may go? it needs to go to every school but also every building to in the country, to be honest. there is a small amount of big hospitals and they are better at that. the ministry of defence is on this. it's in some of their buildings. many government departments and the private sector have buildings with raac in it from the 60s and 70s. in schools, it's easier to locate compared to buildings in the private sector because they are quite hard to find and engage with because they don't even realise they have raac in their building. we need to go through the entire country and find out all the raac that we have. abs, out all the raac that we have. a message here for marion. rachel, what brilliant head teachers you've had on your programme. our children are in safe hands. shame on the government and councils not funding what is needed by schools. i'll tell you the words that make every parent's heart sink, remote learning. parent's heart sink, remote learning-— parent's heart sink, remote learnina. ., ., ., , ., ., learning. no one wants a return to remote learning. _ learning. no one wants a return to remote learning. this _ learning. no one wants a return to remote learning. this is _ learning. no one wants a return to remote learning. this is told - learning. no one wants a return to remote learning. this is told by i learning. no one wants a return to l remote learning. this is told by the government that it's the last resort — government that it's the last resort. you must explore all your options — resort. you must explore all your options ht— resort. you must explore all your otions. �* .,, resort. you must explore all your otions. . .,, _, , resort. you must explore all your otions. . , ., options. at least the systems are set u- for options. at least the systems are set up for it. _ options. at least the systems are set up for it. as _ options. at least the systems are set up for it, as an _ options. at least the systems are set up for it, as an option - options. at least the systems are set up for it, as an option and i set up for it, as an option and schools know how to do it and i guess people's parents know how to respond? irate guess people's parents know how to resond? ~ ., ., ., , guess people's parents know how to resond? ., ., ., , ., , . respond? we do have options now such as online lessons _ respond? we do have options now such as online lessons but _ respond? we do have options now such as online lessons but we _ respond? we do have options now such as online lessons but we are _ respond? we do have options now such as online lessons but we are still- as online lessons but we are still faced _ as online lessons but we are still faced with — as online lessons but we are still faced with all the problems we had the last— faced with all the problems we had the last time we have tynwald had to do it _ for example, the head teachers that have gone _ for example, the head teachers that have gone into local council offices _ have gone into local council offices. however, schools are having to foot _ offices. however, schools are having to foot that— offices. however, schools are having to foot that cost and they are the ones _ to foot that cost and they are the ones who — to foot that cost and they are the ones who are going to have to pay for it _ ones who are going to have to pay for it the — ones who are going to have to pay for it. the work being done on the actual— for it. the work being done on the actual building, that is funded by the department for education but all these _ the department for education but all these other costs moving the pupils is paid _ these other costs moving the pupils is paid for— these other costs moving the pupils is paid for by the local authority and that's— is paid for by the local authority and that's a real worry for school leaders — and that's a real worry for school leaders. parents who are worried about— leaders. parents who are worried about home learning options should always— about home learning options should always speak to this school first and flag — always speak to this school first and flag up any problems they might have accommodating the child, particularly children from more vulnerable backgrounds. grainne hallah, thank— vulnerable backgrounds. grainne hallah, thank you _ vulnerable backgrounds. grainne hallah, thank you very _ vulnerable backgrounds. grainne hallah, thank you very much i vulnerable backgrounds. grainne hallah, thank you very much for| vulnerable backgrounds. grainne i hallah, thank you very much for your contribution this morning. and thank you to professor chris didier -- 30 —— 30 goodyear. we have other comments here, does it affect shopping centres? we certainly know it affect places like courts, council buildings, hospitals. that's from mike. this from melanie, they must have known for a long time about these raac routes. why could this work not been donein routes. why could this work not been done in the holidays instead of interrupting children's education in the same way that coronavirus did. let's hear from you this morning. the same way that coronavirus did. let's hearfrom you this morning. if you are a parent affected by this and you are not sure what is going on at your school, call us on the usual number. any teachers or head teachers you can call the same number if you are impacted by this. it's now time for the news. he is dena campbell with the latest. the government says it won't immediately publish the list of schools which were made using a type of concrete with a limited life span. more than 100 schools in england have been told to shut buildings made with raac. the school minister says he wants parents to find out if their schools are affected from head teachers rather than the media. a large part of england is without rail services today. there is a strike in a long—running dispute about pay. some trains running to wales and scotland will also be affected. members of the major union aslef are walking out. nationwide building society say that house prices have seen the biggest annual decline since 2009. they fell by 5.3% last month. the high cost of borrowing means fewer people can afford to buy a home. paris has become the first european capital to ban electric scooters for hire. it introduced in five years ago that residents of the city voted to remove them from the street in a referendum in april. love sport. manchester united have bought the turkish goalkeeper for £3 million. taylor hardwood has gone on loan from manchester city. andy murray says he might have to accept that big tournaments may never happen to him again. he was knocked out into sets in the us open. alice capp see in cricket. the second fixture of the series will be at chelmsford tomorrow. the rugby world cup sees former world cup eddiejones now in charge of australia says england's poor form charge of australia says england's poorform is charge of australia says england's poor form is down to the rfu not producing enough quality players. england lost to fiji for the first time. their third defeat in four. good morning. we are talking about what's going on in our schools this morning after it emerged thatjust over 100 schools in england containing this aerated concrete, raac, have had to be partially closed the start of term while they sort it out. after 10am this morning, we are going to be talking about the skaters. in paris, they are going to be banned from their streets completely. residents backed the ban in a referendum earlier this year 90% in favour of taking them off the street. it's a hugely divisive issue so we want to let you have your say. are they a blight on our streets or an easy alternative from clogging our streets up with cars. they are not illegal on our roads at the moment. but we will explain the rules to you from turning on this morning. should we follow the french lead and say non to e scooters. 10a schools will not be opening in england as planned next week because of problems with raac that we know there are many more concerns in schools where this concrete is placed. we are withjessica now. a busy one for you but you must have known about this for some time and you've been looking into. i known about this for some time and you've been looking into.— you've been looking into. i actually broke the story. _ you've been looking into. i actually broke the story. i _ you've been looking into. i actually broke the story. i broke _ you've been looking into. i actually broke the story. i broke it - you've been looking into. i actually broke the story. i broke it last i broke the story. i broke it last december. after getting a tip—off from someone in the engineering industry that this was an issue in schools. i mean, it's been on the government radar since the 1990s and there was a warning report done by a team of structural survey is done backin team of structural survey is done back in 1999 that was warning quite clearly that this was a problem. so, it's quite shocking that the government has been so slow to act on this. we government has been so slow to act on this. ~ . ~ government has been so slow to act onthis.~ ::'j~ on this. we said back in 2018 there was a school _ on this. we said back in 2018 there was a school in _ on this. we said back in 2018 there was a school in kent _ on this. we said back in 2018 there was a school in kent where - on this. we said back in 2018 there was a school in kent where the i on this. we said back in 2018 there | was a school in kent where the roof collapsed but it was on a saturday so thankfully no one was hurt. that did set alarm bells ringing. the actual process of assessing a school which may be at risk, it doesn't seem to have been urgent or thorough. what has been going on? the government first of all sent surveys to councils and wanted councils to try and find out how prevailing raac was in schools and some councils were slow to respond to this because of cost cutting measures. councilsjust to this because of cost cutting measures. councils just don't have the resources for this kind of thing at the moment. so then the government went to all schools to get in to fill in the survey are not all of them have responded yet so we still don't know. the n e i have warned it could be up to 600 schools but there are certainly a number which have not done the surveys yet which have not done the surveys yet which could certainly have raac in them. so this issue is not going away. them. so this issue is not going awa . them. so this issue is not going awa. ,. ., , away. some schools may have this buildin: away. some schools may have this building material— away. some schools may have this building material but _ away. some schools may have this building material but it _ away. some schools may have this building material but it may i away. some schools may have this building material but it may not i away. some schools may have this building material but it may not be an issue for them. it's fine, been properly maintained and is not a risk. abs. properly maintained and is not a risk. . ., properly maintained and is not a risk. �* ., ., , ., properly maintained and is not a risk. ., ., , ., �*, properly maintained and is not a risk. ., ., ,., risk. a lot of it is how it's been maintained. _ risk. a lot of it is how it's been maintained. if _ risk. a lot of it is how it's been maintained. if you _ risk. a lot of it is how it's been maintained. if you are - risk. a lot of it is how it's been maintained. if you are a i risk. a lot of it is how it's been j maintained. if you are a school risk. a lot of it is how it's been i maintained. if you are a school and you don't even know you have it, how can you maintain it properly? there's been cuts to budgets to schools over the years which have meant they have had not had the staff to look into these issues. good morning. you are a trustee for the early learning centre and you have concerns about what's going on in your building? yes. have concerns about what's going on in your building?— in your building? yes. it's quite alarmin: in your building? yes. it's quite alarming to _ in your building? yes. it's quite alarming to see _ in your building? yes. it's quite alarming to see what's - in your building? yes. it's quite l alarming to see what's happening with schools but should the question not be _ with schools but should the question not be posed to more buildings. not 'ust not be posed to more buildings. not just limited to schools. i appreciate the problem has already been identified in hospitals but if there _ been identified in hospitals but if there are — been identified in hospitals but if there are buildings that have been built and _ there are buildings that have been built and operated by local councils and that _ built and operated by local councils and that have been rented out to charities— and that have been rented out to charities or — and that have been rented out to charities or private enterprises, what _ charities or private enterprises, what should we be thinking about all looking _ what should we be thinking about all looking at? do what should we be thinking about all lookin: at? i. ., ., , looking at? do you have any suspicions — looking at? do you have any suspicions at _ looking at? do you have any suspicions at all _ looking at? do you have any suspicions at all or - looking at? do you have any suspicions at all or is - looking at? do you have any suspicions at all or is it - looking at? do you have any suspicions at all or is it that | looking at? do you have any - suspicions at all or is it that your building is owned and you would like to know what's in it? i’zre building is owned and you would like to know what's in it?— to know what's in it? i've been a trustee with _ to know what's in it? i've been a trustee with the _ to know what's in it? i've been a trustee with the early _ to know what's in it? i've been a trustee with the early learning i trustee with the early learning centre — trustee with the early learning centre for about five years. i don't think— centre for about five years. i don't think they— centre for about five years. i don't think they would know the history of the materials that have gone into this building originally, however many— this building originally, however many decades ago that was but it's essentially a building that's very much _ essentially a building that's very much like — essentially a building that's very much like a school building. it's not a _ much like a school building. it's not a residential property that's been _ not a residential property that's been converted or like that. jessica, _ been converted or like that. jessica, can you help catherine out at all? �* �* . , jessica, can you help catherine out atall? “ ,,, jessica, can you help catherine out atall? �*~ , jessica, can you help catherine out atall? ~~ , , at all? raac has been used between the 50s and — at all? raac has been used between the 50s and 90s _ at all? raac has been used between the 50s and 90s but _ at all? raac has been used between the 50s and 90s but mainly - at all? raac has been used between the 50s and 90s but mainly the - at all? raac has been used between the 50s and 90s but mainly the 60s| the 50s and 90s but mainly the 60s and the 80s. it was used that we know of, it was only used in one story block so if your building meets that description it could have raac in it. it was used a lot by municipal architects, public buildings as opposed to residential ones. the government certainly when ones. the government certainly when one of the original warning notices it sent out is that it could be in colleges and nurseries. i remember there was a collapse of a roof in a school in tower hamlets over the summer and it was never announced what caused that roof collapse. i'm not saying it was raac but we don't know. i'm sure it is prevailing in nurseries but nobody knows to what extent. ., , ., nurseries but nobody knows to what extent. ., . ., ., nurseries but nobody knows to what extent. ., , ., ., ., extent. how is catherine go about findin: extent. how is catherine go about finding out? _ extent. how is catherine go about finding out? is — extent. how is catherine go about finding out? is about _ extent. how is catherine go about finding out? is about getting - extent. how is catherine go about finding out? is about getting a - finding out? is about getting a surveyor in and paying for that. that would be the first thing. you cannot see raac. it needs an expert to come in and check, so, yes, that's what i would do as a first step. that's what i would do as a first ste -. .. , that's what i would do as a first ste -. .. . ., that's what i would do as a first ste. ., , ., step. catherine is that something ou are step. catherine is that something you are likely _ step. catherine is that something you are likely to _ step. catherine is that something you are likely to follow _ step. catherine is that something you are likely to follow up? - step. catherine is that something you are likely to follow up? yes. | you are likely to follow up? yes. absolutely. we are constantly thinking — absolutely. we are constantly thinking about risk assessments to make _ thinking about risk assessments to make sure — thinking about risk assessments to make sure children and our families are safe _ make sure children and our families are safe 50— make sure children and our families are safe. so it is something we would — are safe. so it is something we would have to think about. thank you for the _ would have to think about. thank you for the advice.— for the advice. thank you, catherine. _ for the advice. thank you, catherine. we _ for the advice. thank you, catherine. we can - for the advice. thank you, catherine. we can speak l for the advice. thank you, | catherine. we can speak to for the advice. thank you, _ catherine. we can speak to jonathan catherine. we can speak tojonathan in hampton, a former teacher, retired? �* . ., ., , retired? i'm lucky enough to be retired. tell _ retired? i'm lucky enough to be retired. tell us _ retired? i'm lucky enough to be retired. tell us about _ retired? i'm lucky enough to be retired. tell us about what - retired? i'm lucky enough to be retired. tell us about what you | retired. tell us about what you know. retired. tell us about what you know well. — retired. tell us about what you know. well, relating _ retired. tell us about what you know. well, relating to - retired. tell us about what you know. well, relating to this . retired. tell us about what you l know. well, relating to this topic in particular. _ know. well, relating to this topic in particular, i've _ know. well, relating to this topic in particular, i've come - know. well, relating to this topic in particular, i've come across i in particular, i've come across crises — in particular, i've come across crises in — in particular, i've come across crises in schools, namely for example _ crises in schools, namely for example i've been where parts of the schools _ example i've been where parts of the schools have closed and i've had to rewrite _ schools have closed and i've had to rewrite timetables and so forth. the government seems to have turned this into a _ government seems to have turned this into a crisis— government seems to have turned this into a crisis in— government seems to have turned this into a crisis in many schools. i feel— into a crisis in many schools. i feel so— into a crisis in many schools. i feel so sorry for the senior management having to make plans at such short _ management having to make plans at such short notice. the finding this out over— such short notice. the finding this out over the summer such short notice. the finding this out overthe summerand such short notice. the finding this out over the summer and i'd like to know— out over the summer and i'd like to know what— out over the summer and i'd like to know what the real timeline is for who knew— know what the real timeline is for who knew what and why could they not have warned these schools back in may and _ have warned these schools back in may and june and given them the heads _ may and june and given them the heads up — may and june and given them the heads up to say this may be happening. helping them with surveys and so _ happening. helping them with surveys and so on _ happening. helping them with surveys and so on. call me cynical but i 'ust and so on. call me cynical but i just wonder— and so on. call me cynical but i just wonder if e—mails have been passing — just wonder if e—mails have been passing slowly between people, civil servants, _ passing slowly between people, civil servants, government ministers, people _ servants, government ministers, people at— servants, government ministers, people at their desks. slight changes to the warning, sorry, changes— changes to the warning, sorry, changes to _ changes to the warning, sorry, changes to the warning, sorry, changes to the criteria where concrete _ changes to the criteria where concrete is assessed as being not right— concrete is assessed as being not right and — concrete is assessed as being not right and so on. but it's such short notice _ right and so on. but it's such short notice it's— right and so on. but it's such short notice it's really... it smacks of possibly— notice it's really... it smacks of possibly incompetence within the government. they have been looking at it for— government. they have been looking at it for years. but the day before schools _ at it for years. but the day before schools go — at it for years. but the day before schools go back, it seems unreasonable to me. the schools go back, it seems unreasonable to me. . . unreasonable to me. the timing seems a nightmare- — unreasonable to me. the timing seems a nightmare- the _ unreasonable to me. the timing seems a nightmare. the schools _ unreasonable to me. the timing seems a nightmare. the schools minister - a nightmare. the schools minister was saying this is because the situations that were previously classified as low risk have suddenly become more urgent. they've had another look at them. i'm not sure what the technical detail is. jessica, are you able to shed any light on this? j jessica, are you able to shed any light on this?— jessica, are you able to shed any light on this? i was going to make the oint light on this? i was going to make the point that _ light on this? i was going to make the point that it _ light on this? i was going to make the point that it makes _ light on this? i was going to make the point that it makes me - light on this? i was going to make the point that it makes me quite l the point that it makes me quite angry when i think about it because the government has known. there was this cool roof collapse which was reported in 2018 but actually happened in 2017. the point is we had the building safety act that was enacted last year and the government chose to only restrict that a high rise buildings. high risk high rise buildings. raac was not seen by this government as high risk at that point that they knew that public buildings contained this and they knew it was past its 30 year shelf life. they knew there was a problem but because it wasn't on the public radar, because national newspapers hadn't really picked it up at that point, they chose to ignore it and i think there was a real missed opportunity with the building safety act that it could have incorporated something about raac and obligations of building owners to make sure that there raac is safe. it should have beenin there raac is safe. it should have been in that law. obviously, that was tied to the grenfell tower accident that happened in 2017. that was the reason for the building safety act but that was a missed opportunity there. the safety act but that was a missed opportunity there.— opportunity there. the schools minister says _ opportunity there. the schools minister says that _ opportunity there. the schools minister says that the - opportunity there. the schools - minister says that the government has reliant on new expert evidence to make the decision to close some school buildings but we should say they've made the decision now before they've made the decision now before the start of the school term. you know, it may feel last—minute for some head teachers but at least it is being done now and mitigations can be put in place before any students or peoples might be at risk. jonathan, one of the things we were hearing this morning from one of our concrete experts is that there is nothing wrong with raac as long as it's well maintained. as a secondary school teacher, how sufficient was the school's maintenance budget? how easy was it to keep your school buildings up—to—date? to keep your school buildings up-to-date?_ to keep your school buildings up-to-date?— to keep your school buildings u-to-date? ~ �* ., ., , up-to-date? well, i'm a non-expert and not directly _ up-to-date? well, i'm a non-expert and not directly involved, _ up-to-date? well, i'm a non-expert and not directly involved, i- and not directly involved, i couldn't _ and not directly involved, i couldn't comment accurately but i've been at _ couldn't comment accurately but i've been at schools where the budget has been at schools where the budget has been very— been at schools where the budget has been very tight for maintenance. i did pick— been very tight for maintenance. i did pick up— been very tight for maintenance. i did pick up on earlier, one of the experts — did pick up on earlier, one of the experts was mentioning a roof has to be properly— experts was mentioning a roof has to be properly waterproof and they must be properly waterproof and they must be many— be properly waterproof and they must be many flat roofs in schools where where _ be many flat roofs in schools where where whoever is making the plans is putting _ where whoever is making the plans is putting it _ where whoever is making the plans is putting it off and seeing a few little — putting it off and seeing a few little drips and thinking we really must _ little drips and thinking we really must do — little drips and thinking we really must do it now but because budgets are so— must do it now but because budgets are so tight, though not necessarily been _ are so tight, though not necessarily been raining proactive and sort things— been raining proactive and sort things out— been raining proactive and sort things out in plenty of time to make sure no— things out in plenty of time to make sure no water gets through. budgets have been— sure no water gets through. budgets have been strained for years. the thing _ have been strained for years. the thing i_ have been strained for years. the thing i would really be interested in, thing i would really be interested in. its— thing i would really be interested in. it's all— thing i would really be interested in, it's all very well nick gibb talking — in, it's all very well nick gibb talking about how proactive they have been but ijust wonder if in the near— have been but ijust wonder if in the near future there might be an information requests go in and asks what was the timeline of this switch. — what was the timeline of this switch, tighter criteria, how quickly _ switch, tighter criteria, how quickly were schools informed? i suspect, — quickly were schools informed? i suspect, i— quickly were schools informed? i suspect, i don't wanna be too suspect, idon't wanna be too cynical— suspect, i don't wanna be too cynical but i think they would have been _ cynical but i think they would have been the _ cynical but i think they would have been the opportunity to give schools a couple _ been the opportunity to give schools a couple of _ been the opportunity to give schools a couple of weeks' notice. a collapse _ a couple of weeks' notice. a collapse happening in an unoccupied building. _ collapse happening in an unoccupied building, surely decisions could be made _ building, surely decisions could be made sometime in the summer holiday, halfway— made sometime in the summer holiday, halfway through or something, rather than the _ halfway through or something, rather than the day before schools go back. it's a _ than the day before schools go back. it's a busy— than the day before schools go back. it's a busy time of year for teachers and head teachers, as well. jonathan, we appreciate that. jessica, he mentioned freedom of information act. we don't know the detail of the list, the 100 of four schools affected by this at the moment. . ., �* , ~ moment. yes, that's right. i think the government, _ moment. yes, that's right. i think the government, nick— moment. yes, that's right. i think the government, nick gibb, - moment. yes, that's right. i think the government, nick gibb, he i moment. yes, that's right. i think l the government, nick gibb, he says he will publish that listing time that he hasn't indicated exactly when that will be. understandably, they want parents to hear this from they want parents to hear this from the schools, rather than the media, which to give the government credit, i can understand that but obviously it means parents everywhere are feeling quite nervous and waiting to see whether they receive a letter from their school. you see whether they receive a letter from their school.— see whether they receive a letter from their school. you would imagine no school what's _ from their school. you would imagine no school what's at _ from their school. you would imagine no school what's at grips _ from their school. you would imagine no school what's at grips are - from their school. you would imagine no school what's at grips are red - no school what's at grips are red hot at the moment. a couple of texts. the school building stock prices, pandemic 2.0. if you've got any direct experience of buildings where you know raac is a problem, notjust where you know raac is a problem, not just schools, where you know raac is a problem, notjust schools, then it would be helpful to hear from you this morning. find the usual number. we have heard somebody texting in saint yes, it's a problem for universities, as well. in terms of school budgets, jessica, we heard from a few experts earlier. one of them were saying that there is some financial support from the government but in terms of the basics, shifting their resources, their white boards, moving stuff around, they have had to cop the cost of that and the head teacher estimated this was £30,000. we know school budgets are tight at the moment anyway. this is going to be a big problem for the schools affected, isn't it? it big problem for the schools affected, isn't it?— big problem for the schools affected, isn't it? it is. there seems to _ affected, isn't it? it is. there seems to have _ affected, isn't it? it is. there seems to have been - affected, isn't it? it is. there seems to have been a - affected, isn't it? it is. there seems to have been a bit - affected, isn't it? it is. there seems to have been a bit of. seems to have been a bit of backtracking going on by ministers. at first, they were, it was implied that schools would have to pick up a lot of these costs. nick gibb this morning said it's not the case but the government will fund it. i sincerely hope that they do because i've been looking into reports showing how councils, sorry, school budgets are in deficit at the moment, much more than they were this time last year so a lot of schools just don't have the money for this. schools 'ust don't have the money for this. . . , ., ~ ., schools 'ust don't have the money for this. . . , ., ~ for this. lets speak to judith in mansfield- _ for this. lets speak to judith in mansfield. good _ for this. lets speak to judith in mansfield. good morning, - for this. lets speak to judith in i mansfield. good morning, judith. good morning. — mansfield. good morning, judith. good morning, rachel. _ mansfield. good morning, judith. good morning, rachel. retired i mansfield. good morning, judith. i good morning, rachel. retired head teacher, i bet you're glad not to be facing this at the beginning of term? ~ . ,., , facing this at the beginning of term? ~ , facing this at the beginning of term? ~ .,., , .,, ., term? absolutely. those head teachers have _ term? absolutely. those head teachers have got _ term? absolutely. those head teachers have got the - teachers have got the responsibility, buying school materials, staff hours, and i think it's too— materials, staff hours, and i think it's too much to expect head teachers _ it's too much to expect head teachers to be qualified and aware of problems within their building. he retired — of problems within their building. he retired back in 2001. were you aware that this raac, this aerated concrete, had been used in school buildings? was it on your radar at all? i buildings? was it on your radar at all? .. . ., ., ., buildings? was it on your radar at all? ., ., ., ,. , all? i was the head of two schools but it wasn't _ all? i was the head of two schools but it wasn't brought _ all? i was the head of two schools but it wasn't brought up _ all? i was the head of two schools but it wasn't brought up as - all? i was the head of two schools but it wasn't brought up as a - but it wasn't brought up as a problem _ but it wasn't brought up as a problem. but before the centralisation of management of schools— centralisation of management of schools under the government, schools — schools under the government, schools were managed by local education authorities and local county— education authorities and local county councils and they were answerable to education matters. they used — answerable to education matters. they used to employ building inspectors to problems were forecast ahead of time _ problems were forecast ahead of time. they were responded to after an incident — time. they were responded to after an incident. they made sure that the schools— an incident. they made sure that the schools were safe for the teachers and the _ schools were safe for the teachers and the children's. so schools were safe for the teachers and the children's.— and the children's. so you are one step ahead- _ and the children's. so you are one step ahead. it's _ and the children's. so you are one step ahead. it's different - and the children's. so you are one step ahead. it's different now. - and the children's. so you are one i step ahead. it's different now. some schools, if they are not academies, they will be tied to the local authority so maybe we should be looking at them. if you are part of an academy now, head teacher's rolls are extensive. you're not really there just to oversee the staff and pupils, you are there as a manager. you are there as a business person and your school has to be financially self—sustaining? and your school has to be financially self-sustaining? yes. the are financially self-sustaining? yes. they are generally _ financially self-sustaining? yes. they are generally better - financially self—sustaining? i'ezs they are generally better funded financially self—sustaining? iezs they are generally better funded but as someone said earlier in the programme, they need to be taking responsibility for the building and having it checked by a qualified person. has having it checked by a qualified erson. �* . y ., having it checked by a qualified erson. a i. ., having it checked by a qualified erson. a ., ., person. as if you are having tenants- — person. as if you are having tenants. but _ person. as if you are having tenants. but if— person. as if you are having tenants. but if your - person. as if you are having tenants. but if your school. person. as if you are having i tenants. but if your school has a small— tenants. but if your school has a small budget, that means how many children— small budget, that means how many children in— small budget, that means how many children in a — small budget, that means how many children in a class, he got a 35 class _ children in a class, he got a 35 class size _ children in a class, he got a 35 class size, then you might have to extend _ class size, then you might have to extend class number so you can afford _ extend class number so you can afford to — extend class number so you can afford to have your building maintained.— afford to have your building maintained. , ., ~' , ., afford to have your building maintained. , ., ~ , ., ., maintained. judith, thank you. not 'ust maintained. judith, thank you. not just schools. _ maintained. judith, thank you. not just schools. as — maintained. judith, thank you. not just schools, as i _ maintained. judith, thank you. not just schools, as i mentioned, i maintained. judith, thank you. not just schools, as i mentioned, joe l maintained. judith, thank you. not| just schools, as i mentioned, joe in kings lynn. good morning, you've king's lynn. good morning, you've got an issue with your hospital? good morning, rachel. it was announced in may that we would benefit _ announced in may that we would benefit from a new hospital but we have had _ benefit from a new hospital but we have had to campaign for over two years— have had to campaign for over two years to _ have had to campaign for over two years to get to that situation. they have known— years to get to that situation. they have known about the raac situation for absolutely years and our hospital _ for absolutely years and our hospital was built with a 13 year shelf— hospital was built with a 13 year shelf life — hospital was built with a 13 year shelf life and its now 12 years over and by— shelf life and its now 12 years over and by the — shelf life and its now 12 years over and by the time we get some help it will be _ and by the time we get some help it will be 20 _ and by the time we get some help it will be 20 years over its shelf life — will be 20 years over its shelf life the _ will be 20 years over its shelf life. the government have been negligent. they've been on a zombie path ignoring this and if you imagine. _ path ignoring this and if you imagine, a few months ago, they were stating _ imagine, a few months ago, they were slating teachers the taking strike action _ slating teachers the taking strike action, causing children to miss valuable — action, causing children to miss valuable learning, their negligence is doing _ valuable learning, their negligence is doing exactly the same thing now. the question i have, if the government say they had new expert advice which has caused them to identify these particular schools as being urgent cases, is that same expert advice being applied to other public buildings?— public buildings? hospitals have to be testina public buildings? hospitals have to be testing the _ public buildings? hospitals have to be testing the concrete. _ public buildings? hospitals have to be testing the concrete. our i be testing the concrete. our hospital— be testing the concrete. our hospital has got raac in the walls and the _ hospital has got raac in the walls and the roof and we have been having to test _ and the roof and we have been having to test that _ and the roof and we have been having to test that concrete on a regular basis _ to test that concrete on a regular basis. they've known about it. our campaign — basis. they've known about it. our campaign has gone to government. we've _ campaign has gone to government. we've got— campaign has gone to government. we've got steve barclay as our next-door — we've got steve barclay as our next—door mp. they knew about it. if they knew _ next—door mp. they knew about it. if they knew about it with hospitals and they— they knew about it with hospitals and they knew the severity of the situation — and they knew the severity of the situation with hospitals, bearing in mind _ situation with hospitals, bearing in mind that — situation with hospitals, bearing in mind that a couple of years ago, our hospital— mind that a couple of years ago, our hospital had — mind that a couple of years ago, our hospital had on its risk register a catastrophic risk of failure, that was known, so they've known about it with schools _ was known, so they've known about it with schools and have chosen to ignore _ with schools and have chosen to ignore it — with schools and have chosen to ignore it because they haven't had the same — ignore it because they haven't had the same campaign groups. that�*s the same campaign groups. that's really interesting _ the same campaign groups. that's really interesting and _ the same campaign groups. that's really interesting and i _ the same campaign groups. that's really interesting and i don't i the same campaign groups. trisgit�*s really interesting and i don't think this story is going to go away. thank you, joe, making the point that hospitals are also facing this issue. this is where we say goodbye to our viewers on bbc news and bbc two and we will continue on bbc sound. but anna foster will be giving you the latest news and sports stories from around the world. live from london, this is bbc news. public calls for the government to "come clean" on the number of school buildings built with concrete prone to collapse. two far—right proud boys militia have been sentenced to long prison terms for storming the us capitol building injanuary 2021. if your president tells you, your country has been stolen, the country that people fought and died for, people are trying to take your vote from you, how are you supposed to react to that? south africa's president stresses inner—city housing problems and describes the fire injohannesburg as a 'wake—up call�*. hello. i'm anna foster. in england, the government is facing calls to "come clean" about the scale of the problems facing school buildings, after some were forced to close because they were made with concrete prone to collapse. more than 100 schools are scrambling to put emergency measures in place before children return from summer holidays — for most, that will be in just a few days time. the closures were announced after ministers said they had seen "new evidence" on the type of concrete — known as raac. so far, a full list of the schools affected has not been made public. live now to bingley in the north of england, where our correspondent rowan bridge is at one of the affected schools. what are they