independent voters to stay home. believe independent voters to stay home. i believe the only worry president trump has right now are that these indictments are chipping away at his money that he is raising at a very hefty pace. he is spending more on legalfees hefty pace. he is spending more on legal fees that most of his rivals are actually raising and a quarter. so that is one thing that i think your reviewers need to take a look at it and watch over the next three months. in the end, the lawyers, the strategists, donald trump's family, can sit back and devise what they think is the best step—by—step strategy to defend donald trump from all of these allegations. there is only one person that is going to make that decision on how to proceed and that is blue. my interactions with president trump were very positive over the time that i served with him. but in my opinion he is the most undisciplined, the most undisciplined politician that i have ever had a chance to work with. so he is quick to lash out in every way. that is going to be his strategy. what he thinks should be said is going to be set on truth social or other social media outlets. he is going to tell him to tweet this and it will come out in the whole world will read it and report on it. that is why you will not see a codified strategy from anyone in this orbit. it is going to be hit or miss based upon what he sees being reported in the media every day about him and his case. and that is very dangerous for him, i think in the criminal case, but we will see what happens. the i think in the criminal case, but we will see what happens.— will see what happens. the spring that carl nasman _ will see what happens. the spring that carl nasman who _ will see what happens. the spring that carl nasman who is - will see what happens. the spring that carl nasman who is still- that carl nasman who is still outside of the courthouse for us. again we have been following proceedings for us all day. just listen to our panelists, give us an idea of what comes next now for the president going forward.— president going forward. there is many more _ president going forward. there is many more court _ president going forward. there is many more court appearances i president going forward. there is l many more court appearances and potentially other indictments on the horizon. of course in terms of this particular case, we note that the next court date is set for august 28. so towards the end of the month. that will be presided over byjudge chutkan and that's when we think we know when we will get an actual start to this trial. we should get a date in which we know that this trial will start and that will just join the many, several of their court dates that are facing donald trump and becoming weeks and months. and between all of these different campaign events and different primaries coming up in the election cycle, we also know that there will be plenty of court dates from civil to criminal to state to federal and this is not the third of course federal arraignment, this is not the third of course federalarraignment, indictment that federal arraignment, indictment that the federalarraignment, indictment that the former president is facing. karen washington, dc outside of the courthouse that has seen many other january the 6th cases. there were no cameras allowed in the courtroom of course because it is a federal courthouse, but there were some reporters including our very own who was allowed inside the courthouse. take a look. you were inside, one of the rare people inside taking a look. i'llshare the rare people inside taking a look. i'll share with us was the demeanour of donald trump himself? he was very calm and quiet. he did not say— he was very calm and quiet. he did not say much, he just responded very quickly— not say much, he just responded very quickly to— not say much, he just responded very quickly to questions been answered. he gave _ quickly to questions been answered. he gave his— quickly to questions been answered. he gave his name and he was asked his age _ he gave his name and he was asked his age he — he gave his name and he was asked his age. he said he was 77, and his word _ his age. he said he was 77, and his word but — his age. he said he was 77, and his word. but other words there was no probe reaction even when the day been _ probe reaction even when the day been possible —— possible penalties were right _ been possible —— possible penalties were right out. very little on his face _ were right out. very little on his face spent — were right out. very little on his face spent most of time with his hands is — face spent most of time with his hands is front of him hunched over the table — hands is front of him hunched over the table. he seemed to be not reacting — the table. he seemed to be not reacting much. not visibly anyway showing _ reacting much. not visibly anyway showing any emotion.— reacting much. not visibly anyway showing any emotion. described as the moments _ showing any emotion. described as the moments that _ showing any emotion. described as the moments that the _ showing any emotion. described as the moments that the former - the moments that the former president entered his plea. he stood u . president entered his plea. he stood u- and president entered his plea. he stood up and that's — president entered his plea. he stood up and that's the _ president entered his plea. he stood up and that's the front _ president entered his plea. he stood up and that's the front of _ president entered his plea. he stood up and that's the front of the - president entered his plea. he stood up and that's the front of the room l up and that's the front of the room and he _ up and that's the front of the room and he kind — up and that's the front of the room and he kind of mouth the words not guilty— and he kind of mouth the words not guilty as is— and he kind of mouth the words not guilty as is lawyer entered the plea on his— guilty as is lawyer entered the plea on his behalf but not much reaction and he _ on his behalf but not much reaction and he did — on his behalf but not much reaction and he did not seem at all worried or irritated. — and he did not seem at all worried or irritated, just very direct. he must've — or irritated, just very direct. he must've prepared for this moment well ahead of time. you could tell it was— well ahead of time. you could tell it was very— well ahead of time. you could tell it was very procedural for him as wett~ _ it was very procedural for him as well. ~ , ., ., , , ., well. we understand that this is a very modest _ well. we understand that this is a very modest courtroom _ well. we understand that this is a very modest courtroom and - well. we understand that this is a very modest courtroom and not . well. we understand that this is a i very modest courtroom and not very large, 70 people inside. cages paint a picture for us of the court house and what the atmosphere was like. the court room itself was very, very small. _ the court room itself was very, very small. very — the court room itself was very, very small, very limited space. so there were _ small, very limited space. so there were attorneys, court staff in there — were attorneys, court staff in there a _ were attorneys, court staff in there. a few dc district judges who had been _ there. a few dc district judges who had been dealing with january the 6th cases, sitting in the room. we saw a _ 6th cases, sitting in the room. we saw a view— 6th cases, sitting in the room. we saw a viewjanuary 6th cases, sitting in the room. we saw a view january the 6th cases, sitting in the room. we saw a viewjanuary the 6th first responders in the courthouse as well, _ responders in the courthouse as well, but — responders in the courthouse as well, but the actual room was a very ti-ht well, but the actual room was a very tight space _ well, but the actual room was a very tight space and everyone else was in overflow— tight space and everyone else was in overflow rooms where you can watch proceedings on big screen tv set up on the _ proceedings on big screen tv set up on the walls. that is where i was for example and there it was a little _ for example and there it was a little more informal, people were speaking — little more informal, people were speaking. —— courtroom itself seem very serious — speaking. —— courtroom itself seem very serious and everyone very quiet — very serious and everyone very quiet but— very serious and everyone very quiet. but no fuss for any commotion of any— quiet. but no fuss for any commotion of any kind _ quiet. but no fuss for any commotion of any kind-— of any kind. also some interesting scenes because _ of any kind. also some interesting scenes because the _ of any kind. also some interesting scenes because the special - of any kind. also some interesting | scenes because the special counsel him smalljack smith entered the room. i believe even before donald trump if that is correct. he sat down in the very front row and there were some maybe not big interactions, but donald trump and jack smith, they were certainly aware of each other in the courtroom.— aware of each other in the courtroom. , . ., , ., courtroom. they certainly were and eve one courtroom. they certainly were and everyone was _ courtroom. they certainly were and everyone was kind _ courtroom. they certainly were and everyone was kind of _ courtroom. they certainly were and everyone was kind of looking - courtroom. they certainly were and everyone was kind of looking for. everyone was kind of looking for that in— everyone was kind of looking for that in particular. i would sayjack smith— that in particular. i would sayjack smith seemed to spend a lot more time looking focused, looking towards — time looking focused, looking towards donald trump than not the judge _ towards donald trump than not the judge. donald trump convinced him occasionally, but otherwise seemed to be _ occasionally, but otherwise seemed to be purposely avoiding any sort of gtances _ to be purposely avoiding any sort of gtances in _ to be purposely avoiding any sort of glances in his direction or gestures in his— glances in his direction or gestures in his direction. you could tell there — in his direction. you could tell there were _ in his direction. you could tell there were tension in the 8—10 feet space _ there were tension in the 8—10 feet space between the. there were tension in the 8-10 feet space between the.— there were tension in the 8-10 feet space between the. donald trump was waitin: for space between the. donald trump was waiting for around _ space between the. donald trump was waiting for around 20 _ space between the. donald trump was waiting for around 20 minutes - space between the. donald trump was waiting for around 20 minutes for - waiting for around 20 minutes for thejudge to arrive waiting for around 20 minutes for the judge to arrive do we have any idea on why the delay was or why it did not start exactly on time? i did not start exactly on time? i cannot say exactly why the delay happened. we were waiting for the judge _ happened. we were waiting for the judge it _ happened. we were waiting for the judge it for quite some time, as he mentioned that i was the one time that you _ mentioned that i was the one time that you could kind of feel the tension — that you could kind of feel the tension in _ that you could kind of feel the tension in the room and in the courthouse. donald trump himself tooked _ courthouse. donald trump himself looked a _ courthouse. donald trump himself looked a little irritated at having to wait — looked a little irritated at having to wait it — looked a little irritated at having to wait. it kind of built up tension in the _ to wait. it kind of built up tension in the room — to wait. it kind of built up tension in the room which was very palpable even in _ in the room which was very palpable even in the — in the room which was very palpable even in the overflow room. gne in the room which was very palpable even in the overflow room.- even in the overflow room. one of the few reporters _ even in the overflow room. one of the few reporters actually - even in the overflow room. one of the few reporters actually allowed | the few reporters actually allowed inside the courthouse of course as i mentioned there were no cameras allowed inside of the room, a very small area, allowed inside of the room, a very smallarea, only allowed inside of the room, a very small area, only three benches but there were some journalists will stop he was one of them allowed inside of the courthouse taking a look and following along today's of today's arraignment, not a long proceeding around 30 minutes. and oddly familiar, be have seen this play out before with donald trump in terms of the actions that took place inside of the courtroom. they very shortly afterwards he went back out a private extra to his motorcade that was waiting for him and he drove back to the airport and he is already back in newjersey. so this was a fairly quick day, not very many addresses by him, just the brief address that that we saw earlier in the airport. so a little different from the arraignment we saw in florida. however still becoming very familiar process in terms of how these rooms play out. thank you very much for that. we were seeing the images of the court renderings, sketches that have not been released from what happened in the court today. you can see all that and get latest information and also the experience on the courtroom on our website bbc .com. these are images right here of the highway in newjersey. that is the former president's motorcade as he has heading back to his golf club where heading back to his golf club where he headed from earlier today. it all happen fairly quickly, flew in from bedminster directly to dc into the court arraignment and that left, a short while ago and now has landed and is heading to the golf club there in bedminster newjersey where he will be. but as carlson, like the previous indictments and arraignments come this was a very quick procedure that took place in washington to say and as we are looking at pictures and the highway let's bring back our panel. sarah to start with you we were hearing carl our correspondent talking about the different dates going forward and said something you and i have discussed on the programme before as well. i heard it being called air traffic control, trying to sort these different cases and trial dates. helpful is not going to be from a legal perspective to see these two trials as we know so far, soon to be possible three before the election? this so far, soon to be possible three before the election?— before the election? this is extremely _ before the election? this is extremely challenging, - before the election? this is extremely challenging, for| before the election? this is i extremely challenging, for the judge, for the prosecution team and the defence team. they barely had to navigate all of these different schedules and figure out how they interplay with each other. so i have been involved in matters that have had where a defendant has had other criminal proceedings perhaps in the state, perhaps anotherjurisdiction state, perhaps another jurisdiction and state, perhaps anotherjurisdiction and even navigating that relatively simple situation can be very complicated. so i think it will be difficult for all of the folks to handle that in particular the judges in these cases. and they may need to co—ordinate among themselves a bit to sort of navigate these waters. fin to sort of navigate these waters. on the to sort of navigate these waters. 0n the back of that the congressmen have been talking about the fact that donald trump's legal team has spent a lot of money on fees so far, of course $21 million of legal fees just in the first half of 2023 alone. what kind of impact does that have on the former president and his team? . , . have on the former president and his team? .,, ., . ., team? has a huge impact. right now does not team? has a huge impact. right now does rrot seem _ team? has a huge impact. right now does not seem to _ team? has a huge impact. right now does not seem to have _ team? has a huge impact. right now does not seem to have a _ team? has a huge impact. right now does not seem to have a financial - does not seem to have a financial impact _ does not seem to have a financial impact on — does not seem to have a financial impact on him. we are all forgetting that even— impact on him. we are all forgetting that even though he has burned through— that even though he has burned through a — that even though he has burned through a lot of this political money, _ through a lot of this political money, the $40 million to defend himself, _ money, the $40 million to defend himself, he could always turn out the spigot— himself, he could always turn out the spigot for himself a step he is a billionaire, he has resources that probably— a billionaire, he has resources that probably very few people have ever had been _ probably very few people have ever had been they on up against federal government. it's sort of level out the government's advantage so his birth to _ the government's advantage so his birth to $40 million and he will burn— birth to $40 million and he will burn tomorrow but if you never get desperate — burn tomorrow but if you never get desperate situation donald trump will do _ desperate situation donald trump will do what he hates doing, he hates— will do what he hates doing, he hates it — will do what he hates doing, he hates it. he will write his own check — hates it. he will write his own check to — hates it. he will write his own check to stay out of this. arena is not appear— check to stay out of this. arena is not appear he has to.— not appear he has to. interesting oint not appear he has to. interesting point there- _ not appear he has to. interesting point there- i _ not appear he has to. interesting point there. i want _ not appear he has to. interesting point there. i want to _ not appear he has to. interesting point there. i want to bring - not appear he has to. interesting point there. i want to bring in - not appear he has to. interesting l point there. i want to bring in now stephanie murphy former congressman democrat from the state of florida where she is joining democrat from the state of florida where she isjoining us democrat from the state of florida where she is joining us from tonight. congresswoman thank you for joining us. first ball you served on the january the 6th committee and house of representatives at the end of year they did retire. how did you feel about the arraignment in the indictment that we have seen? i feel about the arraignment in the indictment that we have seen? heel indictment that we have seen? i feel the beginning _ indictment that we have seen? i feel the beginning of— indictment that we have seen? i feel the beginning of the _ indictment that we have seen? i 15,1 the beginning of the process of legal accountability for the former president for his role in trying to subvert our democracy. in some ways it is a sad day for america that we had an elected official at our highest level and try to undermine our democracy, but on the other hand it is also a day that shows that our institutions have held despite his greatest efforts and he will get due process. i hope that we see that he is held accountable. do process. i hope that we see that he is held accountable.— is held accountable. do you think the indictment _ is held accountable. do you think the indictment reflects _ is held accountable. do you think the indictment reflects the - is held accountable. do you think. the indictment reflects the hearings of the report of your committee? in of the report of your committee? in large part it does reflect of what our committee found, but i think it goes a step further because the department ofjustice goes a step further because the department of justice was goes a step further because the department ofjustice was able to get several key witnesses to speak to them whereas when they spoke to us they either claimed privilege or some did not appear before us at all. we see in the indictment some of the information that they receive. i imagine through the trial will be will receive more of what they learned from these individuals like the former vice president pence and the white house attorney pat sue pallone. i and the white house attorney pat sue pallone. ., ., ., ,~' and the white house attorney pat sue pallone. ., ., ., i. ., pallone. i want to ask you about the former vice — pallone. i want to ask you about the former vice president _ pallone. i want to ask you about the former vice president mike - former vice president mike pence, how key do you think his testimony could be in a possible trial? i think his testimony is going to be very critical trial. in fact, the titbit that was in the indictment where he had taken contemporaneous notes and said that the president said to him when he was pressuring him to do something that was not constitutional, the president complains, you are too honest. i think a vice president should wear that with a badge of honour. the former president would say that he is too honest. but that indicates that the president knew what he was asking the vice president to do, could have been illegal or had been dishonest. d0 could have been illegal or had been dishonest. , ., ,, could have been illegal or had been dishonest. , ., ., . ,, ,, dishonest. do you thinkjack smith can succeed _ dishonest. do you thinkjack smith can succeed where _ dishonest. do you thinkjack smith can succeed where the _ dishonest. do you thinkjack smith l can succeed where the impeachment didn't? i can succeed where the impeachment didn't? . . , that he can succeed. i think he has gotten far more information, and his purposeis gotten far more information, and his purpose is a bit different. the official he is trying to prove and he is nearly articulating what the charges are, he has been able to gather up far more information than the impeachment was able to gather. we are almost three and a half, four years on from that time, and we know a lot more about the overall scheme than we did when the impeachment occurred. i than we did when the impeachment occurred. ., ., , . ,, occurred. i want to bring back congressman _ occurred. i want to bring back congressman rodney - occurred. i want to bring back congressman rodney davis i occurred. i want to bring back. congressman rodney davis into occurred. i want to bring back- congressman rodney davis into this conversation as well, to talk about some of the political thought of this. i was looking at a pull from quinnipiac university showing that more than 50% of americans thought that these events represented an attack on democracy onjanuary 6 but just under 50% believed it was time to move on to stop what do you think of that? , ., ' to move on to stop what do you think of that? , q �* to move on to stop what do you think of that? , .g �* ., ., ., of that? first off, i'm glad to 'oin m aood of that? first off, i'm glad to 'oin my good friend i of that? first off, i'm glad to 'oin my good friend and i of that? first off, i'm glad to 'oin my good friend and formerh of that? first off, i'm glad to join - my good friend and former colleague stephanie _ my good friend and former colleague stephanie murphy tonight. hope she is doing _ stephanie murphy tonight. hope she is doing well. please give your best to your, _ is doing well. please give your best to your, give my best to your family — to your, give my best to your family. look, thatjust shows the polarisation in america right now. if polarisation in america right now. if the _ polarisation in america right now. if the roles — polarisation in america right now. if the roles were reversed mckay had done with _ if the roles were reversed mckay had done with him from did, to instigate what happened on generally six —— and a _ what happened on generally six —— and a democrat had done. i think the numbers— and a democrat had done. i think the numbers would be similar for stub that is— numbers would be similar for stub that is where america is right now and frankly— that is where america is right now and frankly have got to get beyond this next _ and frankly have got to get beyond this next presidential election and do what _ this next presidential election and do what we can to move america back to the _ do what we can to move america back to the middle, move america back to where governing was seen as a good thln- where governing was seen as a good thing rather— where governing was seen as a good thing rather than a bad thing. but unfortunately when you have, which is likety— unfortunately when you have, which is likely to _ unfortunately when you have, which is likely to be the same two candidates who ran against each other— candidates who ran against each other for— candidates who ran against each other for years ago, candidates who ran against each otherforyears ago, running candidates who ran against each other for years ago, running again as the _ other for years ago, running again as the standard—bearers and the top two parties. — as the standard—bearers and the top two parties, i don't think we are going _ two parties, i don't think we are going to — two parties, i don't think we are going to get there. it is interesting to see all of these indictments, together at once, and frankly— indictments, together at once, and frankly i_ indictments, together at once, and frankly i think that place to president's advantage because when you look— president's advantage because when you look at the polling numbers that you look at the polling numbers that you just _ you look at the polling numbers that you just mentioned, many americans already— you just mentioned, many americans already believe that president trump is innocent _ already believe that president trump is innocent of any charge that has been _ is innocent of any charge that has been filed — is innocent of any charge that has been filed against him. the charges in new— been filed against him. the charges in new york, the charges in florida with the _ in new york, the charges in florida with the classified documents, all bteed _ with the classified documents, all bleed into what we saw today, and most _ bleed into what we saw today, and most americans, republics and democrats, don't know anyone who is being _ democrats, don't know anyone who is being tried _ democrats, don't know anyone who is being tried in multiple jurisdictions at the exact same time — jurisdictions at the exact same time we _ jurisdictions at the exact same time. we all assume that there is going _ time. we all assume that there is going to — time. we all assume that there is going to be one that supersedes the others, _ going to be one that supersedes the others, so _ going to be one that supersedes the others, so when each of these prosecutors wants their face time to the world, _ prosecutors wants their face time to the world, by trying to get donald trump _ the world, by trying to get donald trump in — the world, by trying to get donald trump in their courtroom, it is only going _ trump in their courtroom, it is only going to _ trump in their courtroom, it is only going to strengthen his defence in the court — going to strengthen his defence in the court of public opinion and frankly— the court of public opinion and frankly i— the court of public opinion and frankly i think it will strengthen his defence in the actual courts too~ _ his defence in the actual courts too. �* , , his defence in the actual courts too. 2, �* his defence in the actual courts too. ., ., his defence in the actual courts too. 2, �* ., ., ., too. let's bring back bryan lanza on that question _ too. let's bring back bryan lanza on that question as _ too. let's bring back bryan lanza on that question as well, _ too. let's bring back bryan lanza on that question as well, because - too. let's bring back bryan lanza on that question as well, because that| that question as well, because that very same pole, under 50% of those pulled thought that no crime was committed by the former president, directly related to january 6 and efforts to overturn the election. what do you think of that? sin. efforts to overturn the election. what do you think of that? sin, i think there _ what do you think of that? sin, i think there are _ what do you think of that? sin, i think there are no _ what do you think of that? sin, i think there are no different -- i what do you think of that? sin, i i think there are no different -- they think there are no different —— they are in— think there are no different —— they are in node — think there are no different —— they are in node no— think there are no different —— they are in node no different _ think there are no different —— they are in node no different position. think there are no different —— they are in node no different position to| are in node no different position to what _ are in node no different position to what former— are in node no different position to what former vice _ are in node no different position to what former vice president i are in node no different position to what former vice president penn i what former vice president penn state _ what former vice president penn state eartier~ _ what former vice president penn state earlier. he _ what former vice president penn state earlier. he was— what former vice president penn state earlier. he was at i what former vice president penn state earlier. he was at the i state earlier. he was at the capitol. _ state earlier. he was at the capitol. he _ state earlier. he was at the capitol, he was _ state earlier. he was at the capitol, he was the i state earlier. he was at the capitol, he was the one i state earlier. he was at the| capitol, he was the one who state earlier. he was at the i capitol, he was the one who heard chance _ capitol, he was the one who heard chance of. — capitol, he was the one who heard chance of. hang _ capitol, he was the one who heard chance of, hang mike _ capitol, he was the one who heard chance of, hang mike pence, i capitol, he was the one who heard chance of, hang mike pence, felt i capitol, he was the one who heard i chance of, hang mike pence, felt the secret— chance of, hang mike pence, felt the secret service — chance of, hang mike pence, felt the secret service take _ chance of, hang mike pence, felt the secret service take him _ chance of, hang mike pence, felt the secret service take him away- chance of, hang mike pence, felt the secret service take him away from i secret service take him away from the capital — secret service take him away from the capital to— secret service take him away from the capital to delay _ secret service take him away from the capital to delay the i secret service take him away from the capital to delay the hearing. i secret service take him away froml the capital to delay the hearing. he still came _ the capital to delay the hearing. he still came out— the capital to delay the hearing. he still came out before _ the capital to delay the hearing. he still came out before this— still came out before this indictment _ still came out before this indictment and i still came out before this indictment and said, i still came out before this- indictment and said, trump's behaviour— indictment and said, trump's behaviour was— indictment and said, trump's behaviour was reckless- indictment and said, trump's behaviour was reckless buti indictment and said, trump's i behaviour was reckless but not criminat. — behaviour was reckless but not criminat. so— behaviour was reckless but not criminal, so if— behaviour was reckless but not criminal, so if you _ behaviour was reckless but not criminal, so if you have i behaviour was reckless but not criminal, so if you have a i behaviour was reckless but not. criminal, so if you have a person who— criminal, so if you have a person who was— criminal, so if you have a person who was in— criminal, so if you have a person who was in the _ criminal, so if you have a person who was in the middle i criminal, so if you have a person who was in the middle of- criminal, so if you have a person who was in the middle of the i who was in the middle of the hurricane _ who was in the middle of the hurricane expressing i who was in the middle of the hurricane expressing all- who was in the middle of thel hurricane expressing all those things— hurricane expressing all those things that _ hurricane expressing all those things that he _ hurricane expressing all those things that he does i hurricane expressing all those things that he does not i hurricane expressing all those things that he does not feel. hurricane expressing all those | things that he does not feel as criminal. — things that he does not feel as criminal. t'm _ things that he does not feel as criminal, i'm not— things that he does not feel as criminal, i'm not surprised i things that he does not feel as| criminal, i'm not surprised half things that he does not feel as i criminal, i'm not surprised half the country— criminal, i'm not surprised half the country feets — criminal, i'm not surprised half the country feels the _ criminal, i'm not surprised half the country feels the same _ criminal, i'm not surprised half the country feels the same way, i criminal, i'm not surprised half the country feels the same way, and i criminal, i'm not surprised half the country feels the same way, and it| country feels the same way, and it isiustm _ country feels the same way, and it isiustm i— country feels the same way, and it isiustm igo— country feels the same way, and it isiustm t go back— country feels the same way, and it isjust... i go back to _ country feels the same way, and itj isjust... i go back to congressman said, _ isjust... i go back to congressman said. all— isjust... i go back to congressman said. all the — isjust... i go back to congressman said, all the opinion _ isjust... i go back to congressman said, all the opinion affect i isjust... i go back to congressman said, all the opinion affect all- said, all the opinion affect all these — said, all the opinion affect all these indictments, i said, all the opinion affect all these indictments, they- said, all the opinion affect all these indictments, they are i said, all the opinion affect all- these indictments, they are doing a great _ these indictments, they are doing a greatiob_ these indictments, they are doing a greatiob of— these indictments, they are doing a great job of making _ these indictments, they are doing a greatjob of making president- these indictments, they are doing a greatjob of making president look. these indictments, they are doing a| great job of making president look a victim _ great job of making president look a victim of— great job of making president look a victim of the — great job of making president look a victim of the greater— great job of making president look a victim of the greater deep i great job of making president look a victim of the greater deep state, i victim of the greater deep state, and if— victim of the greater deep state, and if that— victim of the greater deep state, and if that is— victim of the greater deep state, and if that is their— victim of the greater deep state, and if that is their goal, i victim of the greater deep state, and if that is their goal, he i victim of the greater deep state, and if that is their goal, he is - and if that is their goal, he is taking — and if that is their goal, he is taking a _ and if that is their goal, he is taking a vintage _ and if that is their goal, he is taking a vintage of— and if that is their goal, he is taking a vintage of that. - and if that is their goal, he is . taking a vintage of that. maybe and if that is their goal, he is - taking a vintage of that. maybe they should cordon— taking a vintage of that. maybe they should cordon it. _ taking a vintage of that. maybe they should cordon it. but— taking a vintage of that. maybe they should cordon it. but you _ taking a vintage of that. maybe they should cordon it. but you have - taking a vintage of that. maybe they should cordon it. but you have a - taking a vintage of that. maybe they should cordon it. but you have a lot| should cordon it. but you have a lot of grand _ should cordon it. but you have a lot of grand standing _ should cordon it. but you have a lot of grand standing taking _ should cordon it. but you have a lot of grand standing taking place, - should cordon it. but you have a lot of grand standing taking place, and| of grand standing taking place, and ethic i_ of grand standing taking place, and ethic i told — of grand standing taking place, and ethic i told you _ of grand standing taking place, and ethic i told you on _ of grand standing taking place, and ethic i told you on this _ of grand standing taking place, and ethic i told you on this network, - ethic i told you on this network, president— ethic i told you on this network, president travis _ —— trump has told me in the past that— —— trump has told me in the past that he _ —— trump has told me in the past that he does— —— trump has told me in the past that he does a _ —— trump has told me in the past that he does a good _ —— trump has told me in the past that he does a good job - —— trump has told me in the past that he does a good job of- that he does a good job of making people _ that he does a good job of making pe0pte crazym _ that he does a good job of making pe0pte crazy... he _ that he does a good job of making people crazy... he has _ that he does a good job of making people crazy... he has shown- that he does a good job of making people crazy... he has shown in. that he does a good job of making i people crazy... he has shown in the last six— people crazy... he has shown in the last six weeks — people crazy... he has shown in the last six weeks that _ people crazy... he has shown in the last six weeks that jack _ people crazy... he has shown in the last six weeks that jack smith - people crazy... he has shown in the last six weeks that jack smith has . last six weeks that jack smith has gone _ last six weeks that jack smith has gone crazy— last six weeks that jack smith has gone crazy against _ last six weeks that jack smith has gone crazy against him _ last six weeks that jack smith has gone crazy against him and - last six weeks that jack smith has gone crazy against him and that l last six weeks that jack smith has| gone crazy against him and that is repented ih — gone crazy against him and that is repented in his— gone crazy against him and that is repented in his polling _ gone crazy against him and that is repented in his polling numbers. i gone crazy against him and that isi repented in his polling numbers. it is only— repented in his polling numbers. it is only going — repented in his polling numbers. it is only going to _ repented in his polling numbers. it is only going to get— repented in his polling numbers. it is only going to get worse. - repented in his polling numbers. it is only going to get worse. the - is only going to get worse. the justice — is only going to get worse. the justice department, _ is only going to get worse. the justice department, starting i is only going to get worse. the justice department, starting at is only going to get worse. the - justice department, starting at the top, is _ justice department, starting at the top. is very— justice department, starting at the top. is very nruch— justice department, starting at the top, is very much on— justice department, starting at the top, is very much on trial, - justice department, starting at the top, is very much on trial, just - justice department, starting at the top, is very much on trial, just as i top, is very much on trial, just as donald _ top, is very much on trial, just as donald trump _ top, is very much on trial, just as donald trump is, _ top, is very much on trial, just as donald trump is, and _ top, is very much on trial, just as donald trump is, and that- top, is very much on trial, just as donald trump is, and that is- top, is very much on trial, just as donald trump is, and that is noti top, is very much on trial, just as| donald trump is, and that is not a good _ donald trump is, and that is not a good thing for _ donald trump is, and that is not a good thing for them. _ donald trump is, and that is not a good thing for them. congressman murh , i good thing for them. congressman murphy. twent— good thing for them. congressman murphy. i want to _ good thing for them. congressman murphy, i want to get _ good thing for them. congressman murphy, i want to get your- good thing for them. congressman murphy, i want to get your take i good thing for them. congressman murphy, i want to get your take on that. do you think these indictment had actually helped to paint the former president as a victim? i former president as a victim? i think the sad thing about this is that these indictments have opened up that these indictments have opened up our legal system to attacks, and thatjust up our legal system to attacks, and that just undermines up our legal system to attacks, and thatjust undermines our institutions. as it is, the american people have very little faith in their institutions, but then having faith in arts to touche and, whether thatis faith in arts to touche and, whether that is voting or the law enforcement or congress, is core to a strong democracy —— having faith in their institutions for all of this partisan bickering hurts us as a nation, and i think our enemies abroad see that as an opportunity, and it isjust abroad see that as an opportunity, and it is just really an unfortunate situation. and it isjust really an unfortunate situation. , . ., and it isjust really an unfortunate situation. , ., ., ., , and it isjust really an unfortunate situation. , ., ., ., situation. just to follow-up on that, situation. just to follow-up on that. what _ situation. just to follow-up on that, what you _ situation. just to follow-up on that, what you mean - situation. just to follow-up on that, what you mean by - situation. just to follow-up on that, what you mean by that, l situation. just to follow-up on i that, what you mean by that, but situation. just to follow-up on - that, what you mean by that, but you think our enemies abroad as you put it to see that as an opportunity? there are those who think that their system of government, autocracy, socialism, communism, autocratic systems, are the ones that are the best that should prevail in this, in ourfuture, and as a democracy, when we are attacking our institutions and the very core of what he democracy is, which is one—vote, your vote matters, we are doing their bidding for them. this your vote matters, we are doing their bidding for them.— their bidding for them. as we are lookin: at their bidding for them. as we are looking at these _ their bidding for them. as we are looking at these images, - their bidding for them. as we are looking at these images, bryan, | looking at these images, bryan, of the former president's convoy on the highway in newjersey what you think of what the cars him and just had to say? i of what the cars him and 'ust had to sa ? ~' ., of what the cars him and 'ust had to sa ? ,, ., , ., say? i think nothing is more corrosive — say? i think nothing is more corrosive to _ say? i think nothing is more corrosive to our— say? i think nothing is more corrosive to our democracyl say? i think nothing is more - corrosive to our democracy than candidates _ corrosive to our democracy than candidates running _ corrosive to our democracy than candidates running for- corrosive to our democracy than candidates running for elected i candidates running for elected office — candidates running for elected office who _ candidates running for elected office who are _ candidates running for elected office who are active - candidates running for elected i office who are active members, candidates running for elected - office who are active members, who came _ office who are active members, who came to _ office who are active members, who came to be — office who are active members, who came to be active _ office who are active members, who came to be active memory- office who are active members, who came to be active memory of- office who are active members, who came to be active memory of the i came to be active memory of the commonest— came to be active memory of the commonest and _ came to be active memory of the commonest and socialist - came to be active memory of the commonest and socialist party, i came to be active memory of the i commonest and socialist party, so the assautts — commonest and socialist party, so the assaults to _ commonest and socialist party, so the assaults to our— commonest and socialist party, so the assaults to our democracy- commonest and socialist party, so the assaults to our democracy are | the assaults to our democracy are coming _ the assaults to our democracy are coming from _ the assaults to our democracy are coming from within _ the assaults to our democracy are coming from within our— the assaults to our democracy are i coming from within our democratic system _ coming from within our democratic system and — coming from within our democratic system and they— coming from within our democratic system and they are _ coming from within our democratic system and they are also - coming from within our democratic system and they are also coming l coming from within our democratic- system and they are also coming from without _ system and they are also coming from without a _ system and they are also coming from without a democrat _ system and they are also coming from without a democrat access _ system and they are also coming from without a democrat access to - system and they are also coming from without a democrat access to and - without a democrat access to and i think— without a democrat access to and i think our— without a democrat access to and i think our adversaries _ without a democrat access to and i think our adversaries look - without a democrat access to and i think our adversaries look at - without a democrat access to and i think our adversaries look at the l think our adversaries look at the aoc and — think our adversaries look at the aoc and see _ think our adversaries look at the aoc and see useful— think our adversaries look at the aoc and see useful fools - think our adversaries look at the aoc and see useful fools to - think our adversaries look at the j aoc and see useful fools to help divide _ aoc and see useful fools to help divide this— aoc and see useful fools to help divide this country— aoc and see useful fools to help divide this country and _ aoc and see useful fools to help divide this country and a - aoc and see useful fools to help divide this country and a look- aoc and see useful fools to help divide this country and a look at| divide this country and a look at president — divide this country and a look at president trump _ divide this country and a look at president trump and _ divide this country and a look at president trump and they- ina similarway. in a similar way. highlighting this fact that — in a similar way. highlighting this fact that this _ in a similar way. highlighting this fact that this view— in a similar way. highlighting this fact that this view democracy- in a similar way. highlighting this fact that this view democracy of. fact that this view democracy of capitalism — fact that this view democracy of capitalism is _ fact that this view democracy of capitalism is not _ fact that this view democracy of capitalism is not necessary- fact that this view democracy of| capitalism is not necessary what they think— capitalism is not necessary what they think is _ capitalism is not necessary what they think is the _ capitalism is not necessary what they think is the best _ capitalism is not necessary what they think is the best path - capitalism is not necessary what i they think is the best path forward, but what _ they think is the best path forward, but what they — they think is the best path forward, but what they have _ they think is the best path forward, but what they have not _ they think is the best path forward, but what they have not painted - they think is the best path forward, but what they have not painted the| but what they have not painted the complete _ but what they have not painted the complete picture, _ but what they have not painted the complete picture, the _ but what they have not painted the complete picture, the alternative l but what they have not painted the| complete picture, the alternative is authoritarianism _ complete picture, the alternative is authoritarianism and _ complete picture, the alternative is authoritarianism and that _ complete picture, the alternative is authoritarianism and that is - complete picture, the alternative is authoritarianism and that is the - authoritarianism and that is the debate — authoritarianism and that is the debate discussion— authoritarianism and that is the debate discussion needs - authoritarianism and that is the debate discussion needs to - authoritarianism and that is the| debate discussion needs to have authoritarianism and that is the - debate discussion needs to have with the far— debate discussion needs to have with the far left— debate discussion needs to have with the far left liberal— debate discussion needs to have with the far left liberal base _ debate discussion needs to have with the far left liberal base of— debate discussion needs to have with the far left liberal base of the - the far left liberal base of the democratic— the far left liberal base of the democratic party, _ the far left liberal base of the democratic party, who - the far left liberal base of the democratic party, who are i the far left liberal base of the democratic party, who are in| the far left liberal base of the - democratic party, who are in elected office _ democratic party, who are in elected office today — democratic party, who are in elected office today for — democratic party, who are in elected office today for some _ democratic party, who are in elected office today for some that _ democratic party, who are in elected office today for some that is - democratic party, who are in elected office today for some that is more i office today for some that is more to hurt our— office today for some that is more to hurt our democracy, _ office today for some that is more to hurt our democracy, as - to hurt our democracy, as those people — to hurt our democracy, as those people challenge _ to hurt our democracy, as those people challenge our— to hurt our democracy, as those people challenge our system, . to hurt our democracy, as those - people challenge our system, disrupt the roots _ people challenge our system, disrupt the roots of— people challenge our system, disrupt the roots of our— people challenge our system, disrupt the roots of our democracy, - people challenge our system, disrupt the roots of our democracy, to - people challenge our system, disrupt the roots of our democracy, to push. the roots of our democracy, to push their— the roots of our democracy, to push their agenda — the roots of our democracy, to push their agenda to _ the roots of our democracy, to push their agenda to stop _ the roots of our democracy, to push their agenda to stop president- the roots of our democracy, to push. their agenda to stop president trump can be _ their agenda to stop president trump can be accused — their agenda to stop president trump can be accused of— their agenda to stop president trump can be accused of weakening - their agenda to stop president trump can be accused of weakening this- can be accused of weakening this through— can be accused of weakening this through his — can be accused of weakening this through his own— can be accused of weakening this through his own actions - can be accused of weakening this through his own actions and - can be accused of weakening this. through his own actions and people do, through his own actions and people do. but _ through his own actions and people do. but it— through his own actions and people do. but it is— through his own actions and people do. but it isa— through his own actions and people do, but it is a dual— through his own actions and people do, but it is a dual effort, - through his own actions and people do, but it is a dual effort, it - through his own actions and people do, but it is a dual effort, it is - do, but it is a dual effort, it is not _ do, but it is a dual effort, it is notiust— do, but it is a dual effort, it is not just trump, _ do, but it is a dual effort, it is not just trump, it _ do, but it is a dual effort, it is not just trump, it is _ do, but it is a dual effort, it is notjust trump, it is both- do, but it is a dual effort, it isl notjust trump, it is both sides donna — notjust trump, it is both sides donna from _ notjust trump, it is both sides donna from the _ notjust trump, it is both sides donna from the very— notjust trump, it is both sides donna from the very picture i notjust trump, it is both sides donna from the very picture of| donna from the very picture of authoritarianism _ donna from the very picture of authoritarianism element - donna from the very picture of authoritarianism element is i donna from the very picture of authoritarianism element is toj authoritarianism element is to refuse — authoritarianism element is to refuse to _ authoritarianism element is to refuse to leave _ authoritarianism element is to refuse to leave office - authoritarianism element is to refuse to leave office and - authoritarianism element is to| refuse to leave office and have authoritarianism element is to . refuse to leave office and have a peaceful— refuse to leave office and have a peaceful transfer _ refuse to leave office and have a peaceful transfer of _ refuse to leave office and have a peaceful transfer of power- refuse to leave office and have a peaceful transfer of power and l refuse to leave office and have a i peaceful transfer of power and that is what _ peaceful transfer of power and that is what is _ peaceful transfer of power and that is what is at — peaceful transfer of power and that is what i . . ., peaceful transfer of power and that is what i . _, ., , is what is at the core of this indictment. _ is what is at the core of this indictment. the _ is what is at the core of this indictment. the former - is what is at the core of this - indictment. the former president violated the fundamental obligation of the occupant of the oval office andindeed of the occupant of the oval office and indeed any american, and that is put country before party or person and to abide by the laws, and to concede and participate in a peaceful transfer of power. if we want to talk abut authoritarianism thatis want to talk abut authoritarianism that is exactly the point there. congressman davis also went to get your thought on that?— your thought on that? listen, i see the polarisation _ your thought on that? listen, i see the polarisation in _ your thought on that? listen, i see the polarisation in this _ your thought on that? listen, i see the polarisation in this country - the polarisation in this country that is— the polarisation in this country that is teaching the next generation that is teaching the next generation that the _ that is teaching the next generation that the only thing that matters in politics— that the only thing that matters in politics is— that the only thing that matters in politics is a fight, and i think the media as — politics is a fight, and i think the media as a — politics is a fight, and i think the media as a whole has some culpability here, whereas there is not a _ culpability here, whereas there is not a tot— culpability here, whereas there is not a tot of— culpability here, whereas there is not a lot of discussion upon where stephanie — not a lot of discussion upon where stephanie and i worked together on issues _ stephanie and i worked together on issues that we agreed upon and passed — issues that we agreed upon and passed in— issues that we agreed upon and passed in a bipartisan way, which frankly— passed in a bipartisan way, which frankty is— passed in a bipartisan way, which frankly is most of what happens in washington on a daily basis, because what is _ washington on a daily basis, because what is given the most attention are the extremes. the extremes of stephanie's party and the extremes of my— stephanie's party and the extremes of my party. and that becomes the norm _ of my party. and that becomes the norm in _ of my party. and that becomes the norm in today's social media atmosphere for millions of americans, so they are used to the fight, _ americans, so they are used to the fight. they— americans, so they are used to the fight, they pick their red team, they— fight, they pick their red team, they picked their blue team, and now they picked their blue team, and now the potting _ they picked their blue team, and now the polling numbers you mentioned earlier, _ the polling numbers you mentioned earlier, they have picture whether or not— earlier, they have picture whether or not this — earlier, they have picture whether or not this case needs to go on or if it needs — or not this case needs to go on or if it needs to— or not this case needs to go on or if it needs to be dropped even before a — if it needs to be dropped even before a shred of evidence is produced _ before a shred of evidence is produced by anyone. may before a shred of evidence is produced by anyone.- before a shred of evidence is produced by anyone. may be that is under a note _ produced by anyone. may be that is under a note we _ produced by anyone. may be that is under a note we can _ produced by anyone. may be that is under a note we can agree - produced by anyone. may be that is under a note we can agree on. - produced by anyone. may be that is under a note we can agree on. i - produced by anyone. may be that is| under a note we can agree on. ijust want to briefly bring back sarah. what happens next going forward for the former president, specifically in this indictment? the the former president, specifically in this indictment?— in this indictment? the next big activity for _ in this indictment? the next big activity for this _ in this indictment? the next big activity for this case _ in this indictment? the next big activity for this case is - in this indictment? the next big activity for this case is the - activity for this case is the prosecution team to produce the discovery in this matter. i assume it is a large amount of discovery and, given how long this case has been going on and may be disputes, frankly, between the parties about the scope of that discovery. then there is an opportunity after that discovery has been produced for the defence team to bring any motions, so there is pretrial motions, generally legal challenges, challenges to any warrants that may have been issued in the case, they may be challenges to the invocation of the crime fraud exception, as to some of the attorneys in this case, may be challenges to some of the processes that were utilised in this case. that would be the next step here. . . , . here. 0k, we will certainly all be watchin: here. 0k, we will certainly all be watching very — here. 0k, we will certainly all be watching very closely. _ here. 0k, we will certainly all be watching very closely. i - here. 0k, we will certainly all be watching very closely. i want - here. 0k, we will certainly all be watching very closely. i want to l watching very closely. i want to thank all of my panel. it has been a really interesting conversation with all of you on this breaking news that we have been following, so thank you to my panel. again, the breaking news we are following is that the former us president donald trump has pled not guilty to four criminal charges. there we see his motorcade driving down the highway in newjersey after he pleaded not guilty to charges against him relating to january 6 and overturning the 2020 election. watching special coverage here on bbc news. hello there. thursday was a relatively quiet day for many of us. in fact, we had some sunny spells and a little bit of warmth coming through. cambridge was the top spot with 23 celsius by the middle of the afternoon. not all of us had beautiful blue, sunny skies. in fact, the cloud, the shower cloud gathered across whitley bay by the end of the afternoon. and some of those showers intense, with rumbles of thunder and lightning mixed in there. so, a similar story as we go into friday. still got this northwesterly flow. that's going to be driving some fairweather cloud around. and through parts of the afternoon, we will start to see a cluster of sharp showers, particularly down through eastern england. a few isolated showers for scotland and northern ireland, the best of the sunshine in sheltered western areas. but temperatures will be a little bit disappointing because of that north—westerly wind direction — 15 to 20 degrees the overall high, 68 fahrenheit. now, as we move out of friday into the start of the weekend, once again, it's going to be the fourth weekend in a row that we've seen an area of low pressure moving in off the atlantic and bringing some unseasonably wet and windy weather for this time of year. so heavy rain during the early hours of saturday morning across northern ireland. it will gradually push its way steadily eastwards. and as the low moves east, while the winds will be gusting across wales and south—west england 50, possibly 60 miles an hour, and that could have an implication certainly for those camping, but some rough seas as well. also, that rain will clear its way steadily east, and then behind, it's going to be a cool and disappointing day for many — only 1a to 17 degrees at the very best. so after a pretty wetjuly, looks likely that we're going to see more significant rain as we move into the next few days for the early half of august, darker blues denoting anywhere where we could potentially see another inch or two of rain. and as we move from sunday into the early part of next week, it looks likely that that unsettled theme is set to continue. however, from wednesday onwards, it looks likely that an area of high pressure will build, and we haven't seen this for quite some time. just how long the high pressure is going to stay with us is still subject to question. perhaps it might ease away after just a few days, but there is a glimmer of hope that we will see some blue sky and sunshine and it will feel warmer. welcome to newsday. reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko oi. the headlines: donald trump pleads not guilty to all four charges in relation to attempts to overturn the 2020 election at a washington court. this is a persecution of a political opponent. this was never supposed to happen in america. the bank of england raises interest rates again, the highest level for 15 years. us pop star lizzo says allegations of harrasment against her are "false", while herformer dancers say she needs to be held accountable. live from our studio in singapore, this is bbc news. it's newsday. welcome to bbc news — broadcasting to viewers in the uk and around the world. we begin in the united states, where the former president donald trump has appeared in court in washington and pleaded not guilty to four charges connected to his attempts to overturn the 2020 us presidential election. after travelling from his golf course in newjersey, mr trump was accompanied in court by his lawyers. he was asked to confirm his name and age and was read his rights before the four charges were read out. no tv cameras were allowed inside the courtroom, but a court sketch has been released. the former president didn't have to pose for a mugshot, but he did have his fingerprints taken. his court appearance took place just blocks