cars, banned by 2030? do you support it? here is the news from karishma patel. people can now expect to pay more for many wines and spirits. changes to alcohol duty have come into force. it means many stronger drinks will be more expensive — while some weaker drinks have gone down in price. new figures show the rate at which food prices are rising slowed to its lowest level this year. goods like oils, fish and cereals have gone down in price. the british retail consortium says food inflation was at 13.4% injuly. authorities in moscow say there's been another drone attack on the city. the mayor says a commercial tower struck on sunday has been hit a second time — and that air defences shot down two other drones. hsbc says its pre—tax profits have more than doubled — to almost £17 billion in the first half of the year — as it benefited from higher interest rates around the world. but the energy giant bp has seen its profits slump by two—thirds — because of a sharp drop in wholesale energy prices. how are you feeling about this? it is ambitious, isn't it? how do you feel about the government's plans to ban petrol and diesel cars that are new by 2030. let me expand on a couple of things. borisjohnson said amidst much of a fanfare, our green industrial revolution will be powered by the wind turbines of scotland, in the north—east propelled by the electric vehicles made in the midlands and advanced by the latest technologies developed in wales, so we can look ahead to a more prosperous, greenerfuture. november 2020. more prosperous, greenerfuture. november2020. if more prosperous, greenerfuture. november 2020. if you like the band but don't like the man but that is what he said. it was a big speech. and also there is a big campaign by the sun today for motorists, they have a five—point plan to protect the great british motorist. another point to put, even the chief executive of the government's climate change committee chris stark is saying this target should be relaxed on the grounds that electric cars are still far too expensive for ordinary motorists to buy. but the day will come inevitably when we are electric, all electric, so maybe we should just get that as soon as possible, and bite the bullet. 08085 909693, text on 08085 and let's see what you think about this massive issue for so many people. the sun newspaper has a five—point manifesto for drivers to be protected from the rush to zero before the country is ready. i guess that readiness is one of the big points here. nick smith, electric car enthusiast, as are many of you. hello, nick, good to have you on. howard cox, founder of the fair uk campaign, back, howard. do you think this is madness? why? let's get this clear, i am pro—electric vehicles and pro cleaning up the air quality and lowering emissions and all of those things but the government are walking into an economic armageddon. i implemented a report with the motorcycle action group and the alliance of british drivers that showed the green benefits of the 2030 ban will actually be, the costs will be five times the benefits, something like 400 billion against 80 billion in terms of the benefits. that can't be right, what we need to do is not be the first to ban diesel and petrol cars, we need to delay it or even scrap it completely and allow clean fuel technology to evolve. ~ . , ., , ., evolve. which is what they are lookin: evolve. which is what they are looking at _ evolve. which is what they are looking at in — evolve. which is what they are looking at in europe, - evolve. which is what they are looking at in europe, it- evolve. which is what they are looking at in europe, it is- evolve. which is what they are l looking at in europe, it is rather more complicated there. tell us about the clean fuel technology you are so hopeful for.— are so hopeful for. there are a number of _ are so hopeful for. there are a number of issues. _ are so hopeful for. there are a number of issues. for - are so hopeful for. there are a l number of issues. for example, are so hopeful for. there are a - number of issues. for example, in the states it is in legislation that a lot of the states deliver in bulk fuels to the forecourts fuel catalysts, and already we are seeing a 50% reduction in emissions and a 10% rise in fuel efficiency. and of course there are electric vehicles and hydrogen. we shouldn't be forced into one mode of transport. the only way electric vehicles are going to succeed is to ban diesel and petrol, people are not choosing electric vehicles as a choice. interesting. 08085 909693, _ vehicles as a choice. interesting. 08085 909693, 08085. - vehicles as a choice. interesting. 08085 909693, 08085. next, . vehicles as a choice. interesting. - 08085 909693, 08085. next, respond to that. we 08085 909693, 08085. next, respond to that. �* , ., ~' to that. i've been working with electric cars — to that. i've been working with electric cars since _ to that. i've been working with electric cars since 2011 - to that. i've been working with electric cars since 2011 and - to that. i've been working with electric cars since 2011 and in i to that. i've been working with i electric cars since 2011 and in that time _ electric cars since 2011 and in that time rangers are going up and prices are going _ time rangers are going up and prices are going down. price is a barrier, could _ are going down. price is a barrier, could be _ are going down. price is a barrier, could be less _ are going down. price is a barrier, could be less of a barrier continuously. i think infrastructure is an_ continuously. i think infrastructure is an issue — continuously. i think infrastructure is an issue. we are seeing people from _ is an issue. we are seeing people from all_ is an issue. we are seeing people from all sorts of demographics switching to electric. there is a small_ switching to electric. there is a small group of people that are adamantly anti—electric and i don't understand the psychology behind that. understand the psychology behind that you — understand the psychology behind that. you see it below the comment sections _ that. you see it below the comment sections in — that. you see it below the comment sections in many of the papers. they are cleaner, — sections in many of the papers. they are cleaner, they are more fun to drive _ are cleaner, they are more fun to drive. electric car drivers drive generally— drive. electric car drivers drive generally more miles because... while _ generally more miles because... white much more fun to drive is pretty— white much more fun to drive is pretty subjective. i mean, obviously feelings— pretty subjective. i mean, obviously feelings are important but let's stick— feelings are important but let's stick to— feelings are important but let's stick to the facts and the infrastructure here. we are heading there _ infrastructure here. we are heading there we _ infrastructure here. we are heading there. we had some interesting points— there. we had some interesting points from howard, to be fair. but it is a points from howard, to be fair. it is a massive points from howard, to be fair. pm it is a massive challenge facing society. wouldn't it be reasonable to delay it until 2035? look, charging points, nowhere near ubiquitous enough. battery factories, big problems there. the energy grid itself, we are way behind. this was a bit of bold boosterism by borisjohnson who, whatever you say about boris johnson, he was a very environmentally minded ulster but we arejust not ready, environmentally minded ulster but we are just not ready, nick. environmentally minded ulster but we arejust not ready, nick. it is environmentally minded ulster but we are just not ready, nick.— are 'ust not ready, nick. it is a bit are just not ready, nick. it is a bit of a myth _ are just not ready, nick. it is a bit of a myth that _ are just not ready, nick. it is a bit of a myth that electric - are just not ready, nick. it is a | bit of a myth that electric grids are not— bit of a myth that electric grids are not ready. grids are built for peak— are not ready. grids are built for peak needs, not average needs and eleciric— peak needs, not average needs and electric cars — peak needs, not average needs and electric cars have been proven to actually, — electric cars have been proven to actually, certainly when you have technologies like a vehicle to grid, they are _ technologies like a vehicle to grid, they are actually smooth demand on they are actually smooth demand on the grid _ they are actually smooth demand on the grid rather than having massive peaks, _ the grid rather than having massive peaks, as _ the grid rather than having massive peaks, as you have smart grids you can charge — peaks, as you have smart grids you can charge a — peaks, as you have smart grids you can charge a car when electricity is cheap, _ can charge a car when electricity is cheap, when it is freely available. when _ cheap, when it is freely available. when it— cheap, when it is freely available. when it comes to petrol, diesel, where _ when it comes to petrol, diesel, where i'rn — when it comes to petrol, diesel, where i'm from in south wales, we have _ where i'm from in south wales, we have one _ where i'm from in south wales, we have one of— where i'm from in south wales, we have one of the most polluted streets — have one of the most polluted streets in _ have one of the most polluted streets in the uk and they ended up having _ streets in the uk and they ended up having to _ streets in the uk and they ended up having to rip down 20 or 30 rows of houses _ having to rip down 20 or 30 rows of houses that — having to rip down 20 or 30 rows of houses that had been there for 80 years— houses that had been there for 80 years because air quality was just horrendous. certainly in london the research _ horrendous. certainly in london the research shows there are thousands of people _ research shows there are thousands of people dying prematurely every year~ _ of people dying prematurely every year~ the — of people dying prematurely every ear. th - . , of people dying prematurely every ear. th . , . of people dying prematurely every year- the— a _ of people dying prematurely every year. the_ a liar? - year. the that is a lie. a liar? that is a _ year. the that is a lie. a liar? that is a complete _ year. the that is a lie. a liar? that is a complete lie. - year. the that is a lie. a liar? that is a complete lie. the i year. the that is a lie. a liar? - that is a complete lie. the 4000 deaths that keep coming out from the sadiq khan is a complete and utter lie. i have asked for freedom of information requests. it is difficult to _ information requests. it is difficult to quantify - information requests. it is difficult to quantify because there are long—term health implications. people don'tjust drop down dead and then you can put it together in this thing. i then you can put it together in this thin. . , , ., thing. i agree with everything you are sa in: thing. i agree with everything you are saying but _ thing. i agree with everything you are saying but this _ thing. i agree with everything you are saying but this being - thing. i agree with everything you are saying but this being used - thing. i agree with everything you are saying but this being used as| thing. i agree with everything you l are saying but this being used as an emotive issue to dictate policy and a new report is just coming out from the cradle to grave issue comparing diesel and petrol versus evs in terms of their emissions and they are not as green as you think they are, as we all know.— are, as we all know. howard, ifi were given _ are, as we all know. howard, ifi were given the _ are, as we all know. howard, ifi were given the opportunity - are, as we all know. howard, ifi were given the opportunity to i are, as we all know. howard, ifi were given the opportunity to sit are, as we all know. howard, if i i were given the opportunity to sit in a locked _ were given the opportunity to sit in a locked garage for half an hour, one with — a locked garage for half an hour, one with an— a locked garage for half an hour, one with an electric car and a diesel— one with an electric car and a diesel car~ _ one with an electric car and a diesel car. the element that is emotional. you wouldn't do that, it isjust_ emotional. you wouldn't do that, it isjust emotion coming out rather than _ isjust emotion coming out rather than fact~ — isjust emotion coming out rather than fact. . , ., , isjust emotion coming out rather than fact. ., , ., , ., than fact. have you been “ogging around central * than fact. have you been “ogging around central london h than fact. have you been jogging around central london recently? | than fact. have you been jogging i around central london recently? let me put these arguments out there. 0bviously electric cars are central to this but electric cars are cheaper overall to run in terms of charging and insurance and servicing. we need to encourage them, we can become market leaders, we can become global leaders. there is much talk about how we are in a position to do that for all sorts of reasons. much cleanerfor position to do that for all sorts of reasons. much cleaner for the environment, air pollution, that is a scientific fact. and also you won't have to pay any congestion charge, orany won't have to pay any congestion charge, or any yulo scheme, low emissions scheme. mandy in barnstable, clean air, barnstaple. mike hawes, chief executive of the society of motor manufacturers and traders, coming on as well, this 2030 ban, is it realistic? good morning, mandy.— 2030 ban, is it realistic? good morning, mandy. 2030 ban, is it realistic? good mornina, mand . ., morning, mandy. morning. i love the comments you— morning, mandy. morning. i love the comments you have _ morning, mandy. morning. i love the comments you have been _ morning, mandy. morning. i love the comments you have been saying. i morning, mandy. morning. i love the comments you have been saying. we have actually got an electric car in birmingham that we have just relocated to north devon and we have two electric cars and we have had to leave one in birmingham because it is the older style, so we are having to pay a diesel low loader to transport it down to us. it kind of defeats the object there. and the infrastructure just isn't there at the moment. we have had every single kind of issue when we are trying to charge our car on the way to devon every time. even in devon now we struggle to find somewhere to charge it and we are having to go to a mcdonald's, obviously other food services are available, but is the only place we can seem to get a charge from, which is crazy, you know, in 2030 we are just not ready for it. i want it to be ready. but it's just not possible. for it. i want it to be ready. but it'sjust not possible.— it'sjust not possible. nick, convinced _ it'sjust not possible. nick, convinced mandy _ it'sjust not possible. nick, convinced mandy that i it'sjust not possible. nick, convinced mandy that she l it'sjust not possible. nick, | convinced mandy that she is it'sjust not possible. nick, - convinced mandy that she is going it'sjust not possible. nick, convinced mandy that she is going to be able to charge her car with sufficient ease by 2030 because it doesn't look like it right now, the convenience factor is not there, is it, nick? , . ., it, nick? yes, charging infrastructure - it, nick? yes, charging infrastructure is - it, nick? yes, charging infrastructure is an i it, nick? yes, charging i infrastructure is an issue. i it, nick? yes, charging - infrastructure is an issue. i think it is improving on a day—to—day basis — it is improving on a day—to—day basis we — it is improving on a day—to—day basis. we are getting these mega charge _ basis. we are getting these mega charge points installed that can charge — charge points installed that can charge 50 or 60 cars at the same time _ charge 50 or 60 cars at the same time very— charge 50 or 60 cars at the same time very rapidly. my own experience of driving _ time very rapidly. my own experience of driving an— time very rapidly. my own experience of driving an electric car to qatar in the _ of driving an electric car to qatar in the world cup, the infrastructure in the world cup, the infrastructure in europe _ in the world cup, the infrastructure in europe is— in the world cup, the infrastructure in europe is much more advanced than we have _ in europe is much more advanced than we have in_ in europe is much more advanced than we have in wales. i've done the same trip down _ we have in wales. i've done the same trip down to— we have in wales. i've done the same trip down to devon from south wales and there _ trip down to devon from south wales and there are service stations with 50 or— and there are service stations with 50 or 60 _ and there are service stations with 50 or 60 charge points. the issue is that heraldry is moving on. the 50 or 60 charge points. the issue is that heraldry is moving on.- that heraldry is moving on. the 50 or60 that heraldry is moving on. the 50 or 60 charge _ that heraldry is moving on. the 50 or 60 charge points, _ that heraldry is moving on. the 50 or 60 charge points, sorry, - that heraldry is moving on. the 50 or 60 charge points, sorry, the i that heraldry is moving on. the 50. or 60 charge points, sorry, the only place we have come across from birmingham to north devon where there is a sufficient amount, they are all tesla chargers, so we can't even use those.— even use those. there is a new service station _ even use those. there is a new service station in _ even use those. there is a new service station in bridgwater, l even use those. there is a new l service station in bridgwater, but the last— service station in bridgwater, but the last time i was there they were still building it, that was the beginning of the year. i'm not going to pretend _ beginning of the year. i'm not going to pretend there isn't issues for those _ to pretend there isn't issues for those longerjourneys. will to pretend there isn't issues for those longerjourneys.- to pretend there isn't issues for those longerjourneys. those longer “ourneys. will we sort it out in those longerjourneys. will we sort it out in seven _ those longerjourneys. will we sort it out in seven years? _ those longerjourneys. will we sort it out in seven years? is _ those longerjourneys. will we sort it out in seven years? is that i it out in seven years? is that doable? is there the will? we have robert llewellyn, everyone, good news, a big ev fan, host of a youtube series called fully charged. good morning. youtube series called fully charged. good morning-— youtube series called fully charged. | good morning._ 2030, good morning. good morning. 2030, are ou good morning. good morning. 2030, are you serious. _ good morning. good morning. 2030, are you serious, is _ good morning. good morning. 2030, are you serious, is that _ good morning. good morning. 2030, are you serious, is that realistic? i are you serious, is that realistic? it is perfectly plausible. if you go back seven — it is perfectly plausible. if you go back seven years _ it is perfectly plausible. if you go back seven years to _ it is perfectly plausible. if you go back seven years to what - it is perfectly plausible. if you go back seven years to what the i back seven years to what the charging _ back seven years to what the charging of _ back seven years to what the charging of the _ back seven years to what the charging of the structure i back seven years to what the charging of the structure was back seven years to what the i charging of the structure was like then it _ charging of the structure was like then it was — charging of the structure was like then it was woefully _ charging of the structure was like then it was woefully inadequate. | charging of the structure was like. then it was woefully inadequate. it is now— then it was woefully inadequate. it is nowjust — then it was woefully inadequate. it is nowjust about _ then it was woefully inadequate. it is nowjust about adequate - then it was woefully inadequate. it is nowjust about adequate if - then it was woefully inadequate. it is nowjust about adequate if you l is nowjust about adequate if you know— is nowjust about adequate if you know how — is nowjust about adequate if you know how to _ is nowjust about adequate if you know how to use _ is nowjust about adequate if you know how to use it _ is nowjust about adequate if you know how to use it and _ is nowjust about adequate if you know how to use it and you - is nowjust about adequate if you know how to use it and you are l is nowjust about adequate if you i know how to use it and you are keen to do— know how to use it and you are keen to do it _ know how to use it and you are keen to do it and — know how to use it and you are keen to do it and all— know how to use it and you are keen to do it and all the _ know how to use it and you are keen to do it and all the electric— know how to use it and you are keen to do it and all the electric car- to do it and all the electric car drivers— to do it and all the electric car drivers i— to do it and all the electric car drivers i know, _ to do it and all the electric car drivers i know, there - to do it and all the electric car drivers i know, there are i to do it and all the electric car drivers i know, there are now| drivers i know, there are now hundreds— drivers i know, there are now hundreds of— drivers i know, there are now hundreds of thousands - drivers i know, there are now hundreds of thousands of i drivers i know, there are now. hundreds of thousands of them, drivers i know, there are now- hundreds of thousands of them, do manage _ hundreds of thousands of them, do manage and — hundreds of thousands of them, do manage and you _ hundreds of thousands of them, do manage. and you never, _ hundreds of thousands of them, do manage. and you never, never- hundreds of thousands of them, do| manage. and you never, never hear hundreds of thousands of them, do i manage. and you never, never hear of a story— manage. and you never, never hear of a story in_ manage. and you never, never hear of a story in the _ manage. and you never, never hear of a story in the media _ manage. and you never, never hear of a story in the media of— manage. and you never, never hear of a story in the media of someone - manage. and you never, never hear of a story in the media of someone who. a story in the media of someone who 'ust a story in the media of someone who just drive _ a story in the media of someone who just drive somewhere _ a story in the media of someone who just drive somewhere and _ a story in the media of someone who just drive somewhere and charges i a story in the media of someone who. just drive somewhere and charges and carries— just drive somewhere and charges and carries on— just drive somewhere and charges and carries on driving _ just drive somewhere and charges and carries on driving because _ just drive somewhere and charges and carries on driving because that's - carries on driving because that's not a _ carries on driving because that's not a story _ carries on driving because that's not a story the _ carries on driving because that's not a story. the always - carries on driving because that's not a story. the always always i carries on driving because that's i not a story. the always always hear that they _ not a story. the always always hear that they get — not a story. the always always hear that they get to _ not a story. the always always hear that they get to the _ not a story. the always always hear that they get to the charger - not a story. the always always hear that they get to the charger and i not a story. the always always hear that they get to the charger and it i that they get to the charger and it doesn't _ that they get to the charger and it doesn't work _ that they get to the charger and it doesn't work that _ that they get to the charger and it doesn't work that day, _ that they get to the charger and it doesn't work that day, or - that they get to the charger and it doesn't work that day, or there i that they get to the charger and iti doesn't work that day, or there are too many— doesn't work that day, or there are too many people _ doesn't work that day, or there are too many people waiting _ doesn't work that day, or there are too many people waiting for - doesn't work that day, or there are too many people waiting for it. i too many people waiting for it. there — too many people waiting for it. there are — too many people waiting for it. there are tens _ too many people waiting for it. there are tens of— too many people waiting for it. there are tens of thousands i too many people waiting for it. there are tens of thousands of| there are tens of thousands of successful— there are tens of thousands of successful charge _ there are tens of thousands of successful charge experiences | there are tens of thousands of i successful charge experiences every day. successful charge experiences every day if _ successful charge experiences every day if we _ successful charge experiences every day. if we don't _ successful charge experiences every day. if we don't put _ successful charge experiences every day. if we don't put in _ successful charge experiences every day. if we don't put in an— successful charge experiences every day. if we don't put in an adequate i day. if we don't put in an adequate charging _ day. if we don't put in an adequate charging infrastructure, _ day. if we don't put in an adequate charging infrastructure, let's- day. if we don't put in an adequate charging infrastructure, let's carryl charging infrastructure, let's carry on importihg _ charging infrastructure, let's carry on importing fossil— charging infrastructure, let's carry on importing fossil fuel— charging infrastructure, let's carry on importing fossil fuel and - charging infrastructure, let's carry i on importing fossil fuel and burning it in inefficient _ on importing fossil fuel and burning it in inefficient petrol— on importing fossil fuel and burning it in inefficient petrol cars, - on importing fossil fuel and burning it in inefficient petrol cars, it's- it in inefficient petrol cars, it's fine _ it in inefficient petrol cars, it's fine at — it in inefficient petrol cars, it's fine at the _ it in inefficient petrol cars, it's fine. at the end _ it in inefficient petrol cars, it's fine. at the end of— it in inefficient petrol cars, it's fine. at the end of the - it in inefficient petrol cars, it's fine. at the end of the day- it in inefficient petrol cars, it'si fine. at the end of the day that it in inefficient petrol cars, it's. fine. at the end of the day that is what _ fine. at the end of the day that is what our— fine. at the end of the day that is what our aim _ fine. at the end of the day that is what our aim is, _ fine. at the end of the day that is what our aim is, to _ fine. at the end of the day that is what our aim is, to try— fine. at the end of the day that is what our aim is, to try and - fine. at the end of the day that is what our aim is, to try and weanl what our aim is, to try and wean ourselves— what our aim is, to try and wean ourselves off _ what our aim is, to try and wean ourselves off imported, - what our aim is, to try and wean i ourselves off imported, expensive, toxic— ourselves off imported, expensive, toxic fossil— ourselves off imported, expensive, toxic fossil fuel— ourselves off imported, expensive, toxic fossil fuel and _ ourselves off imported, expensive, toxic fossil fuel and all _ ourselves off imported, expensive, toxic fossil fuel and all the - toxic fossil fuel and all the negatives— toxic fossil fuel and all the negatives around - toxic fossil fuel and all the negatives around that. i toxic fossil fuel and all the | negatives around that. and toxic fossil fuel and all the i negatives around that. and it is toxic fossil fuel and all the - negatives around that. and it is so, so easy, _ negatives around that. and it is so, so easy, it — negatives around that. and it is so, so easy, it is — negatives around that. and it is so, so easy. it is the _ negatives around that. and it is so, so easy, it is the easy— negatives around that. and it is so, so easy, it is the easy way- negatives around that. and it is so, so easy, it is the easy way out i negatives around that. and it is so, so easy, it is the easy way out to l so easy, it is the easy way out to say it_ so easy, it is the easy way out to say it is— so easy, it is the easy way out to say it is not— so easy, it is the easy way out to say it is not ready. _ so easy, it is the easy way out to say it is not ready. of— so easy, it is the easy way out to say it is not ready. of course - so easy, it is the easy way out to say it is not ready. of course it . so easy, it is the easy way out toi say it is not ready. of course it is not ready. — say it is not ready. of course it is not ready. it _ say it is not ready. of course it is not ready. it is _ say it is not ready. of course it is not ready, it is 2023, _ say it is not ready. of course it is not ready, it is 2023, it- say it is not ready. of course it is not ready, it is 2023, it is- say it is not ready. of course it is not ready, it is 2023, it is not- not ready, it is 2023, it is not ready for— not ready, it is 2023, it is not ready for 2030 _ not ready, it is 2023, it is not ready for 2030 but _ not ready, it is 2023, it is not ready for 2030 but in - not ready, it is 2023, it is not ready for 2030 but in 2030 i not ready, it is 2023, it is not- ready for 2030 but in 2030 there will still — ready for 2030 but in 2030 there will still be — ready for 2030 but in 2030 there will still be 20 — ready for 2030 but in 2030 there will still be 20 million _ ready for 2030 but in 2030 there i will still be 20 million combustion cars on_ will still be 20 million combustion cars on the — will still be 20 million combustion cars on the road. _ will still be 20 million combustion cars on the road. they— will still be 20 million combustion cars on the road. they are - will still be 20 million combustion cars on the road. they are not - will still be 20 million combustion . cars on the road. they are not being banned _ cars on the road. they are not being banned overnight. _ cars on the road. they are not being banned overnight. no— cars on the road. they are not being banned overnight. no one _ cars on the road. they are not being banned overnight. no one is - cars on the road. they are not being banned overnight. no one is going l cars on the road. they are not beingl banned overnight. no one is going to do that _ banned overnight. no one is going to do that no _ banned overnight. no one is going to do that no one — banned overnight. no one is going to do that. no one has— banned overnight. no one is going to do that. no one has suggested - banned overnight. no one is going to do that. no one has suggested that. i do that. no one has suggested that. what it— do that. no one has suggested that. what it is— do that. no one has suggested that. what it is is— do that. no one has suggested that. what it is is you _ do that. no one has suggested that. what it is is you can't _ do that. no one has suggested that. what it is is you can't buy— do that. no one has suggested that. what it is is you can't buy a - do that. no one has suggested that. what it is is you can't buy a new- what it is is you can't buy a new one, _ what it is is you can't buy a new one. that — what it is is you can't buy a new one. that is _ what it is is you can't buy a new one, that is all— what it is is you can't buy a new one, that is all it— what it is is you can't buy a new one, that is all it is— what it is is you can't buy a new one, that is all it is about. - what it is is you can't buy a new one, that is all it is about. you. one, that is all it is about. you cannot— one, that is all it is about. you cannot buy— one, that is all it is about. you cannot buy a _ one, that is all it is about. you cannot buy a new— one, that is all it is about. you cannot buy a new one - one, that is all it is about. you cannot buy a new one from - one, that is all it is about. you i cannot buy a new one from 2030. one, that is all it is about. you - cannot buy a new one from 2030. you cannot buy a new one from 2030. you can stilt— cannot buy a new one from 2030. you can still buy _ cannot buy a new one from 2030. you can still buy a — cannot buy a new one from 2030. you can still buy a plug—in _ cannot buy a new one from 2030. you can still buy a plug—in hybrid - cannot buy a new one from 2030. you can still buy a plug—in hybrid until- can still buy a plug—in hybrid until 2035 _ can still buy a plug—in hybrid until 2035 so — can still buy a plug—in hybrid until 2035 so there _ can still buy a plug—in hybrid until 2035. so there is _ can still buy a plug—in hybrid until 2035. so there is ample - can still buy a plug—in hybrid until 2035. so there is ample time - can still buy a plug—in hybrid until 2035. so there is ample time to l 2035. so there is ample time to install— 2035. so there is ample time to install and — 2035. so there is ample time to install and run— 2035. so there is ample time to install and run an _ 2035. so there is ample time to install and run an efficient, - 2035. so there is ample time to| install and run an efficient, easy to use, — install and run an efficient, easy to use, easy— install and run an efficient, easy to use, easy to _ install and run an efficient, easy to use, easy to pay— install and run an efficient, easy to use, easy to pay for - install and run an efficient, easy to use, easy to pay for electric. to use, easy to pay for electric charging — to use, easy to pay for electric charging network. _ to use, easy to pay for electric charging network.— to use, easy to pay for electric charging network. to use, easy to pay for electric charuain network. ~ . , charging network. where are these? i hear what you — charging network. where are these? i hear what you are _ charging network. where are these? i hear what you are saying. _ charging network. where are these? i hear what you are saying. for- charging network. where are these? i hear what you are saying. for every . hear what you are saying. for every petrol station there is... hang hear what you are saying. for every petrol station there is. . ._ petrol station there is... hang on, what if you — petrol station there is... hang on, what if you live _ petrol station there is... hang on, what if you live in. . . ? _ petrol station there is. .. hang on, what if you live in...? i _ petrol station there is... hang on, what if you live in. . . ? i have - petrol station there is... hang on, what if you live in. . . ? i have two l what if you live in. . . ? i have two electric cars- _ what if you live in. . . ? i have two electric cars. what _ what if you live in. . . ? i have two electric cars. what if _ what if you live in. . . ? i have two electric cars. what if you - what if you live in. . . ? i have two electric cars. what if you live - what if you live in. . . ? i have two electric cars. what if you live in l electric cars. what if you live in somewhere _ electric cars. what if you live in somewhere remote _ electric cars. what if you live in somewhere remote in - electric cars. what if you live in l somewhere remote in scotland? electric cars. what if you live in - somewhere remote in scotland? you are lucky because there are more charges _ are lucky because there are more charges in — are lucky because there are more charges in scotland _ are lucky because there are more charges in scotland than - are lucky because there are more charges in scotland than in - are lucky because there are more l charges in scotland than in england so that— charges in scotland than in england so that is— charges in scotland than in england so that is not— charges in scotland than in england so that is not a _ charges in scotland than in england so that is not a good _ charges in scotland than in england so that is not a good excuse. - charges in scotland than in england so that is not a good excuse. in- so that is not a good excuse. in certain— so that is not a good excuse. in certain parts— so that is not a good excuse. in certain parts of— so that is not a good excuse. in certain parts of wales - so that is not a good excuse. in certain parts of wales that's - so that is not a good excuse. in| certain parts of wales that's not the case — certain parts of wales that's not the case but— certain parts of wales that's not the case. but it _ certain parts of wales that's not the case. but it is _ certain parts of wales that's not the case. but it is a _ certain parts of wales that's not the case. but it is a business i certain parts of wales that's noti the case. but it is a business and people _ the case. but it is a business and people can — the case. but it is a business and people can see _ the case. but it is a business and people can see it _ the case. but it is a business and people can see it as— the case. but it is a business and people can see it as a _ the case. but it is a business and people can see it as a business. the case. but it is a business and . people can see it as a business and they will— people can see it as a business and they will install— people can see it as a business and they will install them. _ people can see it as a business and they will install them. that - people can see it as a business and they will install them. that is - people can see it as a business and they will install them. that is what| they will install them. that is what is happening. _ they will install them. that is what is happening. it— they will install them. that is what is happening. it is— they will install them. that is what is happening, it is not— they will install them. that is what is happening, it is not being - they will install them. that is what| is happening, it is not being funded try is happening, it is not being funded by the _ is happening, it is not being funded by the government. _ is happening, it is not being funded by the government. inth?— is happening, it is not being funded by the government.— by the government. why aren't we installin: by the government. why aren't we installing them? _ by the government. why aren't we installing them? why _ by the government. why aren't we installing them? why aren't - by the government. why aren't we installing them? why aren't we . installing them? why aren't we seeing these companies taking over petrol stations? i seeing these companies taking over petrol stations?— petrol stations? i guess the . uestion petrol stations? i guess the question is. _ petrol stations? i guess the question is, it _ petrol stations? i guess the question is, it is _ petrol stations? i guess the question is, it is a - petrol stations? i guess the question is, it is a good - petrol stations? i guess the l question is, it is a good one, robert, where is the impetus going to come from? it has got to be the profit motive. as you said we could be market leaders, we could be global leaders. are we up and running on that? reign not yet, no. not in the way you are talking about were if even a quarter of the cars were if even a quarter of the cars we use on the road were electric. we are still nowhere near that. but by 2030 we will be a way past that. br; 2030 we will be a way past that. by 2030 we will be a way past that. by 2030 we will be a way past that. by 2030 we only need to supply electricity— 2030 we only need to supply electricity for— 2030 we only need to supply electricity for about - 2030 we only need to supply electricity for about half - 2030 we only need to supply electricity for about half of l 2030 we only need to supply. electricity for about half of the castle — electricity for about half of the castle use~ _ electricity for about half of the castle use. there _ electricity for about half of the castle use. there are - electricity for about half of the castle use. there are too - electricity for about half of the | castle use. there are too many electricity for about half of the - castle use. there are too many cars anyway. _ castle use. there are too many cars anyway. too — castle use. there are too many cars anyway. too many _ castle use. there are too many cars anyway, too many people _ castle use. there are too many cars anyway, too many people own - castle use. there are too many cars anyway, too many people own too i castle use. there are too many cars - anyway, too many people own too many cars, anyway, too many people own too many cars. we _ anyway, too many people own too many cars. we need _ anyway, too many people own too many cars. we need less — anyway, too many people own too many cars, we need less cars— anyway, too many people own too many cars, we need less cars on— anyway, too many people own too many cars, we need less cars on the _ anyway, too many people own too many cars, we need less cars on the road - cars, we need less cars on the road and we _ cars, we need less cars on the road and we need — cars, we need less cars on the road and we need to— cars, we need less cars on the road and we need to use _ cars, we need less cars on the road and we need to use them _ cars, we need less cars on the road and we need to use them less- cars, we need less cars on the road| and we need to use them less often and we need to use them less often and we _ and we need to use them less often and we need — and we need to use them less often and we need to— and we need to use them less often and we need to use _ and we need to use them less often and we need to use public- and we need to use them less often and we need to use public transport and we need to use public transport and have _ and we need to use public transport and have safe — and we need to use public transport and have safe cycling _ and we need to use public transport and have safe cycling of _ and we need to use public transport and have safe cycling of safe - and have safe cycling of safe walking _ and have safe cycling of safe walking routes _ and have safe cycling of safe walking routes and - and have safe cycling of safe walking routes and less - and have safe cycling of safe walking routes and less air l walking routes and less air pollution. _ walking routes and less air pollution, all— walking routes and less air pollution, all of— walking routes and less air pollution, all of those - walking routes and less air i pollution, all of those things walking routes and less air - pollution, all of those things are part of— pollution, all of those things are part of the — pollution, all of those things are part of the same _ pollution, all of those things are part of the same discussion. - pollution, all of those things are part of the same discussion. if. pollution, all of those things are l part of the same discussion. if the only problem _ part of the same discussion. if the only problem is— part of the same discussion. if the only problem is there _ part of the same discussion. if the only problem is there aren't - part of the same discussion. if the i only problem is there aren't enough charge _ only problem is there aren't enough charge points~~~ _ only problem is there aren't enough charge points... there _ only problem is there aren't enough charge points... there has - only problem is there aren't enough charge points... there has been - charge points... there has been 14.000 — charge points... there has been 14.000 new— charge points... there has been 14,000 new charge _ charge points... there has been 14,000 new charge points - charge points... there has been 14,000 new charge points put l charge points... there has been| 14,000 new charge points put in charge points... there has been - 14,000 new charge points put in this year and _ 14,000 new charge points put in this year and it's— 14,000 new charge points put in this year and it's only— 14,000 new charge points put in this year and it's only the _ 14,000 new charge points put in this year and it's only the 1st _ 14,000 new charge points put in this year and it's only the 1st of _ year and it's only the 1st of august _ year and it's only the 1st of august so _ year and it's only the 1st of august. so they— year and it's only the 1st of august. so they are - year and it's only the 1st of - august. so they are appearing. but how august. so they are appearing. how many of those are working? august. so they are appearing- how many of those are working? where is this information from? i want electric but who collates the information? every time i have gone to use a charge point, nine times out of ten there is a fault. iteii out of ten there is a fault. i tell out of ten there is a fault. i tell you what. _ out of ten there is a fault. i tell you what, mandy, _ out of ten there is a fault. i tell you what, mandy, you - out of ten there is a fault. i tell you what, mandy, you should l out of ten there is a fault. i tell you what, mandy, you should be in line for a presenting gig on newsnight, this is a proper grilling. respond to that. i newsnight, this is a proper grilling. respond to that. i support electric. robert _ grilling. respond to that. i support electric. robert llewellyn, - grilling. respond to that. i support electric. robert llewellyn, go - grilling. respond to that. i support electric. robert llewellyn, go on. | grilling. respond to that. i support electric. robert llewellyn, go on. i will question _ electric. robert llewellyn, go on. i will question nine _ electric. robert llewellyn, go on. i will question nine times _ electric. robert llewellyn, go on. i will question nine times out - electric. robert llewellyn, go on. i will question nine times out of - electric. robert llewellyn, go on. i| will question nine times out of ten. i will question nine times out of ten. i would _ will question nine times out of ten. i would willingly _ will question nine times out of ten. i would willingly accept _ will question nine times out of ten. i would willingly accept two - will question nine times out of ten. i would willingly accept two or- i would willingly accept two or three — i would willingly accept two or three times _ i would willingly accept two or three times out _ i would willingly accept two or three times out of _ i would willingly accept two or three times out of ten, - i would willingly accept two or three times out of ten, nine l i would willingly accept two or- three times out of ten, nine times out of— three times out of ten, nine times out of ten. — three times out of ten, nine times out often. iye— three times out of ten, nine times out of ten, i've been— three times out of ten, nine times out of ten, i've been using - three times out of ten, nine timesi out of ten, i've been using electric charges _ out of ten, i've been using electric charges since _ out of ten, i've been using electric charges since 2010 _ out of ten, i've been using electric charges since 2010 and _ out of ten, i've been using electric charges since 2010 and i— out of ten, i've been using electric charges since 2010 and i know - out of ten, i've been using electric. charges since 2010 and i know what they are _ charges since 2010 and i know what they are like — charges since 2010 and i know what they are like and _ charges since 2010 and i know what they are like and i— charges since 2010 and i know what they are like and i know— charges since 2010 and i know what they are like and i know how - they are like and i know how incredibly— they are like and i know how incredibly annoying - they are like and i know how incredibly annoying it - they are like and i know how incredibly annoying it is - they are like and i know howl incredibly annoying it is when they are like and i know how - incredibly annoying it is when they don't _ incredibly annoying it is when they don't work — incredibly annoying it is when they don't work i— incredibly annoying it is when they don't work. i know _ incredibly annoying it is when they don't work. i know the _ incredibly annoying it is when they don't work. i know the vile - incredibly annoying it is when they l don't work. i know the vile language i don't work. i know the vile language i have _ don't work. i know the vile language i have shouted — don't work. i know the vile language i have shouted at _ don't work. i know the vile language i have shouted at the _ don't work. i know the vile language i have shouted at the companies- don't work. i know the vile language i i have shouted at the companies that run them. _ i have shouted at the companies that runthem. not— i have shouted at the companies that run them, not directly _ i have shouted at the companies that run them, not directly to _ i have shouted at the companies that run them, not directly to them, - i have shouted at the companies that run them, not directly to them, but i run them, not directly to them, but 'ust run them, not directly to them, but just to _ run them, not directly to them, but just to the — run them, not directly to them, but just to the sky— run them, not directly to them, but just to the sky when _ run them, not directly to them, but just to the sky when they— run them, not directly to them, but just to the sky when they don't - run them, not directly to them, butj just to the sky when they don't run, and i_ just to the sky when they don't run, and i think— just to the sky when they don't run, and i think if— just to the sky when they don't run, and i think if you _ just to the sky when they don't run, and i think if you go _ just to the sky when they don't run, and i think if you go to— just to the sky when they don't run, and i think if you go to a _ just to the sky when they don't run, and i think if you go to a car- and i think if you go to a car charger— and i think if you go to a car charger it— and i think if you go to a car charger it is _ and i think if you go to a car charger it is not _ and i think if you go to a car charger it is not working - and i think if you go to a carl charger it is not working that company— charger it is not working that company that— charger it is not working that company that is _ charger it is not working that company that is running - charger it is not working that company that is running it i charger it is not working that - company that is running it should be fined by— company that is running it should be fined by the — company that is running it should be fined by the hour— company that is running it should be fined by the hour by— company that is running it should be fined by the hour by a _ company that is running it should be fined by the hour by a competent. fined by the hour by a competent government— fined by the hour by a competent government who _ fined by the hour by a competent government who says _ fined by the hour by a competent government who says you - fined by the hour by a competent government who says you can't l fined by the hour by a competent . government who says you can't put this in— government who says you can't put this in and _ government who says you can't put this in and not— government who says you can't put this in and not run— government who says you can't put this in and not run it, _ government who says you can't put this in and not run it, you - government who says you can't put this in and not run it, you have - government who says you can't put this in and not run it, you have to. this in and not run it, you have to run it— this in and not run it, you have to run it efficiently— this in and not run it, you have to run it efficiently and _ this in and not run it, you have to run it efficiently and it _ this in and not run it, you have to run it efficiently and it has - this in and not run it, you have to run it efficiently and it has to - this in and not run it, you have to run it efficiently and it has to be i run it efficiently and it has to be reliable. — run it efficiently and it has to be reliable. it— run it efficiently and it has to be reliable, it has— run it efficiently and it has to be reliable, it has to _ run it efficiently and it has to be reliable, it has to be _ run it efficiently and it has to be reliable, it has to be easy- run it efficiently and it has to be reliable, it has to be easy to - run it efficiently and it has to be. reliable, it has to be easy to use. that _ reliable, it has to be easy to use. that is— reliable, it has to be easy to use. that is what — reliable, it has to be easy to use. that is what we _ reliable, it has to be easy to use. that is what we should _ reliable, it has to be easy to use. that is what we should be - reliable, it has to be easy to use. i that is what we should be shouting and stamping— that is what we should be shouting and stamping our— that is what we should be shouting and stamping our feet _ that is what we should be shouting and stamping our feet about. - that is what we should be shouting| and stamping our feet about. there are charges — and stamping our feet about. there are charges if— and stamping our feet about. there are charges. if you _ and stamping our feet about. there are charges. if you look— and stamping our feet about. there are charges. if you look at - and stamping our feet about. there are charges. if you look at a - and stamping our feet about. there are charges. if you look at a map i are charges. if you look at a map called _ are charges. if you look at a map called zap— are charges. if you look at a map called zap app. _ are charges. if you look at a map called zapapp. i_ are charges. if you look at a map called zap app, i don't— are charges. if you look at a map called zap app, i don't want - are charges. if you look at a map called zap app, i don't want to l are charges. if you look at a map i called zap app, i don't want to plug them _ called zap app, i don't want to plug them too _ called zap app, i don't want to plug them too much. _ called zap app, i don't want to plug them too much, but _ called zap app, idon't want to plug them too much, but they— called zap app, i don't want to plug them too much, but they cover - called zap app, i don't want to plug them too much, but they cover alli called zap app, i don't want to plug. them too much, but they cover all of them too much, but they cover all of the charges — them too much, but they cover all of the charges in — them too much, but they cover all of the charges in the _ them too much, but they cover all of the charges in the country— them too much, but they cover all of the charges in the country and - them too much, but they cover all of the charges in the country and there| the charges in the country and there is a dense _ the charges in the country and there is a dense block— the charges in the country and there is a dense block if— the charges in the country and there is a dense block if you _ the charges in the country and there is a dense block if you zoom - the charges in the country and there is a dense block if you zoom out - the charges in the country and there is a dense block if you zoom out oni is a dense block if you zoom out on that map. — is a dense block if you zoom out on that map. there _ is a dense block if you zoom out on that map, there are _ is a dense block if you zoom out on that map, there are hundreds- is a dense block if you zoom out on that map, there are hundreds of. that map, there are hundreds of thousands— that map, there are hundreds of thousands of— that map, there are hundreds of thousands of them. _ that map, there are hundreds of thousands of them. not - that map, there are hundreds of thousands of them.— that map, there are hundreds of thousands of them. not in the areas that i need them _ thousands of them. not in the areas that i need them to _ thousands of them. not in the areas that i need them to be. _ thousands of them. not in the areas that i need them to be. i _ thousands of them. not in the areas that i need them to be. i can't - that i need them to be. i can't travel... sorry.— travel... sorry. it's all right, don't go _ travel... sorry. it's all right, don't go anywhere. - travel... sorry. it's all right, don't go anywhere. when i l travel... sorry. it's all right, l don't go anywhere. when i go travel... sorry. it's all right, - don't go anywhere. when i go on holiday you come in for some holiday relief here. it is a superb call. texts, just a couple, then we will bring in steven broadstairs. electric cars, can we reflect somewhere? the whole thing is a snare and delusion. changing the type of car while not doing anything to get cars off the road, as robert said there, create a more sustainable lifestyle. arguably you could improve rail, bus and walking and cycle infrastructure and car use would drop and there will be no need to endlessly fetishise motorised personal comfort boxes. there we are. somebody said earlier, nick said they are more fun to drive. people have got hold of, got hold of an aston martin db five from the 605 may beg to differ but that's the thing times change and we need to move on and we know why we need to move on and we know why we need to move on. stephen broadstairs, good morning, steve. move on. stephen broadstairs, good morning. steve-— move on. stephen broadstairs, good morning, steve._ are | move on. stephen broadstairs, good i morning, steve._ are we morning, steve. good morning. are we auoin to morning, steve. good morning. are we going to get — morning, steve. good morning. are we going to get there _ morning, steve. good morning. are we going to get there by — morning, steve. good morning. are we going to get there by 2030? _ morning, steve. good morning. are we going to get there by 2030? i - morning, steve. good morning. are we going to get there by 2030? i hope - going to get there by 2030? i hope so but i'm going to get there by 2030? i hope so but l'm not— going to get there by 2030? i hope so but i'm not confident _ going to get there by 2030? i hope so but i'm not confident based - going to get there by 2030? i hope so but i'm not confident based on | going to get there by 2030? i hope l so but i'm not confident based on my recent experience. my wife and i, we changed our ga5 guzzling diesels for electric vehicles last year for three main reasons. first the environmental issue. the second was the increasing cost of petrol. and the increasing cost of petrol. and the third was from a financial point of view there were some tax breaks for doing so. but within three months we have changed them back. we simply found that there wasn't the infrastructure to support them, let alone in the uk, but even worse in europe. so until that infrastructure is in place i wouldn't be confident to go back to electric vehicles. dispiriting for you. slightly depressing, trying to do the right thing and itjust didn't work out. and it cost me quite a lot of money in terms of changing vehicles and then switching them back and getting then switching them back and getting the electric point put in at home and everything. but what i found was that a car that is listed with a 250 mile range, in effect it is 200 and if you dare to put on the aircon or the radio it probably drops to about 180. my daughter is away at university in birmingham and i would have to stop once on the way and once on the way back to charge up in thatjourney. the other thing, it was even worse in france. when we were driving through france there just isn't the infrastructure available. we ended up driving through winding country lanes to find one charging point in some sort of village off the main road. yes. the other— of village off the main road. yes. the other thing _ of village off the main road. yes. the other thing i _ of village off the main road. yes. the other thing i found _ of village off the main road. yes. the other thing i found in - of village off the main road. yes. the other thing i found in the uk is the other thing ifound in the uk is there is a scarcity of the high—power charging points which are the faster charge where you can charge your vehicle in 45 minutes. a lot of them, the ones at the local supermarket and stuff like this, are the sort of seven kilowatt hour charges that add 30 miles so if you want to top up your car you have to sit there five hours to get a miles out of it. i understand it's a lot better in the netherlands. i was speaking to another frustrated motorist in france and he was telling me how every couple of hundred yards on the road in the netherlands there is charging points and proper charging stations like petrol stations where you can go in and there are 20 points that you can fast charge on. and there are 20 points that you can fast charge om— and there are 20 points that you can fast charge on. they are years ahead ofthe fast charge on. they are years ahead of the curve — fast charge on. they are years ahead of the curve on _ fast charge on. they are years ahead of the curve on us _ fast charge on. they are years ahead of the curve on us on _ fast charge on. they are years ahead of the curve on us on bike _ fast charge on. they are years ahead of the curve on us on bike lanes, - of the curve on us on bike lanes, for example, aren't they? exactly and i for example, aren't they? exactly and i think— for example, aren't they? exactly and i think this _ for example, aren't they? exactly and i think this is _ for example, aren't they? exactly and i think this is the _ for example, aren't they? exactly and i think this is the same. - for example, aren't they? exactly and i think this is the same. i - and i think this is the same. i think until we have a similar setup to the set up in the netherlands, i don't see how it is going to work in practice. don't see how it is going to work in ractice. . ,., , .,, practice. excellent points. robert, are ou practice. excellent points. robert, are you still _ practice. excellent points. robert, are you still there, _ practice. excellent points. robert, are you still there, robert - are you still there, robert llewellyn?— are you still there, robert| llewellyn?_ this are you still there, robert i llewellyn?_ this is are you still there, robert - llewellyn?_ this is worth llewellyn? yes, i am. this is worth caettin llewellyn? yes, i am. this is worth getting your _ llewellyn? yes, i am. this is worth getting your comment _ llewellyn? yes, i am. this is worth getting your comment on, - llewellyn? yes, i am. this is worth getting your comment on, it - llewellyn? yes, i am. this is worth i getting your comment on, it bolsters the point you made to an extent. this has come from the government quoted in the papers today, a government insider. because there are many people in the conservative party, and indeed in the cabinet saying maybe we should rethink this one. but rishi sunak seems to be sticking to his guns at the moment. this government source says, "this is palpably attracting investment into the uk. if we start to muck about with that there would be people in the car sector saying, hang on, you are not serious." a campaign to ensure that the next electric mini is built in oxford rather than china would be harmed by a delay. however, as i say, tory mp5 and peers on the right of the parties say the 2030 ban risks doing grave damage. there is of course a bigger picture about environmental issues and some of the commitments to those slightly fraying at the edge of those for electoral reasons. what about that, investment? what about business grabbing the nettle on this one, is that happening, robert? . . on this one, is that happening, robert? , , , ., ., robert? yes, this is one of the interesting _ robert? yes, this is one of the interesting thing _ robert? yes, this is one of the interesting thing is, _ robert? yes, this is one of the interesting thing is, the - robert? yes, this is one of the - interesting thing is, the resistance to this _ interesting thing is, the resistance to this ban — interesting thing is, the resistance to this ban is — interesting thing is, the resistance to this ban is coming _ interesting thing is, the resistance to this ban is coming from - interesting thing is, the resistance to this ban is coming from a - interesting thing is, the resistancei to this ban is coming from a certain group _ to this ban is coming from a certain group of— to this ban is coming from a certain group ofmps— to this ban is coming from a certain group ofmpsand— to this ban is coming from a certain group of mps and right—wing - to this ban is coming from a certain. group of mps and right—wing pundits. mr clarkson _ group of mps and right—wing pundits. mr clarkson springs _ group of mps and right—wing pundits. mr clarkson springs to _ group of mps and right—wing pundits. mr clarkson springs to mind. - group of mps and right—wing pundits. mr clarkson springs to mind. but- group of mps and right—wing pundits. mr clarkson springs to mind. but not| mr clarkson springs to mind. but not from the _ mr clarkson springs to mind. but not from the automotive _ mr clarkson springs to mind. but not from the automotive industry. - mr clarkson springs to mind. but not from the automotive industry. you . from the automotive industry. you might— from the automotive industry. you might think— from the automotive industry. you might think they— from the automotive industry. you might think they might _ from the automotive industry. you might think they might want - from the automotive industry. you might think they might want to - from the automotive industry. you| might think they might want to say we can't _ might think they might want to say we can't be — might think they might want to say we can't be bothered _ might think they might want to say we can't be bothered with- might think they might want to say we can't be bothered with all- might think they might want to sayj we can't be bothered with all these fancy— we can't be bothered with all these fancy electric — we can't be bothered with all these fancy electric cars, _ we can't be bothered with all these fancy electric cars, let's _ we can't be bothered with all these fancy electric cars, let's stick - we can't be bothered with all these fancy electric cars, let's stick to - fancy electric cars, let's stick to diesel— fancy electric cars, let's stick to diesel ones. _ fancy electric cars, let's stick to diesel ones, they— fancy electric cars, let's stick to diesel ones, they are _ fancy electric cars, let's stick to diesel ones, they are much - fancy electric cars, let's stick to i diesel ones, they are much easier, and they— diesel ones, they are much easier, and they are — diesel ones, they are much easier, and they are not _ diesel ones, they are much easier, and they are not saying _ diesel ones, they are much easier, and they are not saying that. - diesel ones, they are much easier, and they are not saying that. they| and they are not saying that. they have _ and they are not saying that. they have invested _ and they are not saying that. they have invested billions _ and they are not saying that. they have invested billions in _ have invested billions in transferring _ have invested billions in transferring their- have invested billions in transferring their whole| transferring their whole manufacturing - transferring their whole manufacturing base. i transferring their whole i manufacturing base. and transferring their whole - manufacturing base. and it's not 'ust manufacturing base. and it's not just in— manufacturing base. and it's not just in this — manufacturing base. and it's not just in this country, _ manufacturing base. and it's not just in this country, it's- manufacturing base. and it's not just in this country, it's all- manufacturing base. and it's not just in this country, it's all over. just in this country, it's all over the world _ just in this country, it's all over the world. and _ just in this country, it's all over the world. and they _ just in this country, it's all over the world. and they are - just in this country, it's all over the world. and they are not - just in this country, it's all over. the world. and they are not going just in this country, it's all over- the world. and they are not going to id the world. and they are not going to go back— the world. and they are not going to go back and — the world. and they are not going to go back and if— the world. and they are not going to go back and if we _ the world. and they are not going to go back and if we don't _ the world. and they are not going to go back and if we don't have - go back and if we don't have electric— go back and if we don't have electric cars _ go back and if we don't have electric cars in _ go back and if we don't have electric cars in our— go back and if we don't have electric cars in our country l go back and if we don't have . electric cars in our country and go back and if we don't have - electric cars in our country and we want _ electric cars in our country and we want to— electric cars in our country and we want to hang _ electric cars in our country and we want to hang on— electric cars in our country and we want to hang on to— electric cars in our country and we want to hang on to petrol- electric cars in our country and we want to hang on to petrol because that's— want to hang on to petrol because that's our— want to hang on to petrol because that's our right _ want to hang on to petrol because that's our right to _ want to hang on to petrol because that's our right to freedom - want to hang on to petrol because that's our right to freedom to - want to hang on to petrol becausei that's our right to freedom to drive along _ that's our right to freedom to drive along the _ that's our right to freedom to drive along the roads _ that's our right to freedom to drive along the roads and _ that's our right to freedom to drive along the roads and not _ that's our right to freedom to drive along the roads and not let - that's our right to freedom to drive along the roads and not let anyone stop us— along the roads and not let anyone stop us and — along the roads and not let anyone stop us and pump— along the roads and not let anyone stop us and pump out _ along the roads and not let anyone stop us and pump out the - along the roads and not let anyone stop us and pump out the fumes . along the roads and not let anyone . stop us and pump out the fumes that we do. _ stop us and pump out the fumes that we do. then— stop us and pump out the fumes that we do. then the— stop us and pump out the fumes that we do, then the rest— stop us and pump out the fumes that we do, then the rest of— stop us and pump out the fumes that we do, then the rest of the _ stop us and pump out the fumes that we do, then the rest of the world - stop us and pump out the fumes that we do, then the rest of the world is i we do, then the rest of the world is going _ we do, then the rest of the world is going to _ we do, then the rest of the world is going to have — we do, then the rest of the world is going to have electric— we do, then the rest of the world is going to have electric cars - we do, then the rest of the world is going to have electric cars and - going to have electric cars and their— going to have electric cars and their economies _ going to have electric cars and their economies are _ going to have electric cars and their economies are going - going to have electric cars and their economies are going to i going to have electric cars and - their economies are going to benefit as a result _ their economies are going to benefit as a result and — their economies are going to benefit as a result and they— their economies are going to benefit as a result and they are _ their economies are going to benefit as a result and they are not - their economies are going to benefit as a result and they are not going i as a result and they are not going to be _ as a result and they are not going to be sending _ as a result and they are not going to be sending huge _ as a result and they are not going to be sending huge amounts - as a result and they are not going to be sending huge amounts of. as a result and they are not going - to be sending huge amounts of money out of— to be sending huge amounts of money out of their— to be sending huge amounts of money out of their economy _ to be sending huge amounts of money out of their economy every _ to be sending huge amounts of money out of their economy every week- to be sending huge amounts of money out of their economy every week to i out of their economy every week to pay for— out of their economy every week to pay for the — out of their economy every week to pay for the fuel— out of their economy every week to pay for the fuel they _ out of their economy every week to pay for the fuel they import. - out of their economy every week to pay for the fuel they import. that l pay for the fuel they import. that is an— pay for the fuel they import. that is an aspect — pay for the fuel they import. that is an aspect i _ pay for the fuel they import. that is an aspect i would _ pay for the fuel they import. that is an aspect i would have - pay for the fuel they import. that is an aspect i would have thought would _ is an aspect i would have thought would appeal— is an aspect i would have thought would appeal to _ is an aspect i would have thought would appeal to some _ is an aspect i would have thought - would appeal to some conservatives. you know. _ would appeal to some conservatives. you know. we — would appeal to some conservatives. you know. we send _ would appeal to some conservatives. you know, we send billions- would appeal to some conservatives. you know, we send billions and - you know, we send billions and billions — you know, we send billions and billions of— you know, we send billions and billions of pounds _ you know, we send billions and billions of pounds of _ you know, we send billions and billions of pounds of our - you know, we send billions andj billions of pounds of our money you know, we send billions and - billions of pounds of our money out of our— billions of pounds of our money out of our economy— billions of pounds of our money out of our economy to _ billions of pounds of our money out of our economy to various - billions of pounds of our money outi of our economy to various countries, some _ of our economy to various countries, some of— of our economy to various countries, some of which— of our economy to various countries, some of which are _ of our economy to various countries, some of which are less _ of our economy to various countries, some of which are less than - some of which are less than reputable _ some of which are less than reputable in— some of which are less than reputable in terms - some of which are less than reputable in terms of- some of which are less thani reputable in terms of human some of which are less than - reputable in terms of human rights, and that— reputable in terms of human rights, and that is— reputable in terms of human rights, and that is considered _ reputable in terms of human rights, and that is considered normal- and that is considered normal because — and that is considered normal because we _ and that is considered normal because we have _ and that is considered normal because we have been - and that is considered normal because we have been doingi and that is considered normall because we have been doing it and that is considered normal- because we have been doing it for decades— because we have been doing it for decades and — because we have been doing it for decades and we _ because we have been doing it for decades and we are _ because we have been doing it for decades and we are all— because we have been doing it for decades and we are all used - because we have been doing it for decades and we are all used to . because we have been doing it for decades and we are all used to it. | because we have been doing it forl decades and we are all used to it. i say that— decades and we are all used to it. i say that isn't— decades and we are all used to it. i say that isn't normal, _ decades and we are all used to it. i say that isn't normal, we _ decades and we are all used to it. i say that isn't normal, we should i say that isn't normal, we should stop— say that isn't normal, we should stop doing — say that isn't normal, we should stop doing that. _ say that isn't normal, we should stop doing that, let's _ say that isn't normal, we should stop doing that, let's spend i say that isn't normal, we shouldj stop doing that, let's spend that money— stop doing that, let's spend that money here _ stop doing that, let's spend that money here in— stop doing that, let's spend that money here in this _ stop doing that, let's spend that money here in this country i stop doing that, let's spend that i money here in this country employing people _ money here in this country employing people in— money here in this country employing people in this — money here in this country employing people in this country, _ money here in this country employing people in this country, growing - money here in this country employing people in this country, growing our. people in this country, growing our infrastructure _ people in this country, growing our infrastructure in— people in this country, growing our infrastructure in this _ people in this country, growing our infrastructure in this country. it i infrastructure in this country. it is possible _ infrastructure in this country. it is possible to _ infrastructure in this country. it is possible to fuel— infrastructure in this country. it is possible to fuel an _ infrastructure in this country. it is possible to fuel an electric. infrastructure in this country. itl is possible to fuel an electric car with electricity— is possible to fuel an electric car with electricity we _ is possible to fuel an electric car with electricity we make - is possible to fuel an electric car with electricity we make in i is possible to fuel an electric car with electricity we make in this. with electricity we make in this country— with electricity we make in this country from _ with electricity we make in this country from wind, _ with electricity we make in this country from wind, solar - with electricity we make in this country from wind, solar and l country from wind, solar and nuclear _ country from wind, solar and nuclear it _ country from wind, solar and nuclear it is _ country from wind, solar and nuclear. it is possible. - country from wind, solar and nuclear. it is possible. we i country from wind, solar and i nuclear. it is possible. we don't have _ nuclear. it is possible. we don't have to — nuclear. it is possible. we don't have to import _ nuclear. it is possible. we don't have to import billions- nuclear. it is possible. we don't have to import billions of- nuclear. it is possible. we don'ti have to import billions of barrels of oil_ have to import billions of barrels of oil to— have to import billions of barrels of oil to burn _ have to import billions of barrels of oil to burn once. _ have to import billions of barrels of oil to burn once. we - have to import billions of barrels of oil to burn once. we can't - of oil to burn once. we can't recycle — of oil to burn once. we can't recycle diesel. _ of oil to burn once. we can't recycle diesel.— of oil to burn once. we can't recycle diesel. of oil to burn once. we can't re cle diesel. ., ., ~ ., ., recycle diesel. you talk about human riuhts, recycle diesel. you talk about human rights. electric— recycle diesel. you talk about human rights, electric vehicle _ recycle diesel. you talk about human rights, electric vehicle batteries - rights, electric vehicle batteries use rare metals. they are a humanitarian nightmare. use rare metals. they are a humanitarian niahtmare. ., ., humanitarian nightmare. name me one iece of humanitarian nightmare. name me one piece of high-technology _ humanitarian nightmare. name me one piece of high-technology machinery - piece of high—technology machinery that doesn't — piece of high—technology machinery that doesn't use _ piece of high—technology machinery that doesn't use the _ piece of high—technology machinery that doesn't use the metals - piece of high—technology machinery that doesn't use the metals that - piece of high—technology machinery| that doesn't use the metals that are du- that doesn't use the metals that are dug up— that doesn't use the metals that are dug up around — that doesn't use the metals that are dug up around the _ that doesn't use the metals that are dug up around the world. _ that doesn't use the metals that are i dug up around the world. everything we consume — dug up around the world. everything we consume is— dug up around the world. everything we consume is grown— dug up around the world. everything we consume is grown or— dug up around the world. everything we consume is grown or dug - dug up around the world. everything we consume is grown or dug up, - we consume is grown or dug up, everything. _ we consume is grown or dug up, everything. it— we consume is grown or dug up, everything, it always _ we consume is grown or dug up, everything, it always has - we consume is grown or dug up, everything, it always has been. i everything, it always has been. cobalt — everything, it always has been. cobalt deposits— everything, it always has been. cobalt deposits in _ everything, it always has been. cobalt deposits in the - everything, it always has been. . cobalt deposits in the democratic republic of the congo, for example. the oil industry uses the most cobalt, — the oil industry uses the most cobalt, the _ the oil industry uses the most cobalt, the oil— the oil industry uses the most cobalt, the oil industry- the oil industry uses the most cobalt, the oil industry uses . the oil industry uses the most i cobalt, the oil industry uses the most _ cobalt, the oil industry uses the most cobalt, _ cobalt, the oil industry uses the most cobalt, that _ cobalt, the oil industry uses the most cobalt, that point- cobalt, the oil industry uses the most cobalt, that point is- cobalt, the oil industry uses the | most cobalt, that point is never, never— most cobalt, that point is never, never mentioned. _ most cobalt, that point is never, never mentioned. you _ most cobalt, that point is never, never mentioned. you mentioned it, i think. never mentioned. you mentioned it, i think- they — never mentioned. you mentioned it, i think- they are _ never mentioned. you mentioned it, i think. they are destroying _ never mentioned. you mentioned it, i think. they are destroying forests, . think. they are destroying forests, they are destroying species, they are exploiting women, they are exploiting children. but many people would say you're right, there is no perfection afoot here. share would say you're right, there is no perfection afoot here.— would say you're right, there is no perfection afoot here. are of course there isn't- — perfection afoot here. are of course there isn't- 0r— perfection afoot here. are of course there isn't. or ended _ perfection afoot here. are of course there isn't. or ended in _ perfection afoot here. are of course there isn't. or ended in the - perfection afoot here. are of course there isn't. or ended in the car, - there isn't. or ended in the car, never mind _ there isn't. or ended in the car, never mind afoot. _ there isn't. or ended in the car, never mind afoot. mike - there isn't. or ended in the car, never mind afoot. mike hawes,| there isn't. or ended in the car, - never mind afoot. mike hawes, chief executives of the society of motor manufacturers and traders, thank you for hanging in there on a rather gridlocked programme, it is busy. but robert set you up rather nicely about the motor trade. what do the men and women of the motor trade think about this?— think about this? robert is right. the industry _ think about this? robert is right. the industry is _ think about this? robert is right. the industry is betting _ think about this? robert is right. the industry is betting the - think about this? robert is right. the industry is betting the farm l think about this? robert is right. i the industry is betting the farm on this technology. it is making those investments, it is developing the products. the product choice is ever greater. any suggestion now that there is going to be some flip—flopping on this policy will send entirely the wrong message, both to investors and to the public about this transition. that's the last thing you need right now. what last thing you need right now. what about the wobbling _ last thing you need right now. what about the wobbling that is going on? what is that doing to confidence? the likes of michael gove. i'm just looking for his particular quote, a man who is deeply embedded in the cabinet, of course. these mixed messages. he said last week, he spoke to the sun last week and said net zero must not become a religious crusade and i think we should relax the pace of all this, the inference being he is talking, amongst other things, about the ban.— things, about the ban. yeah. this whole transition _ things, about the ban. yeah. this whole transition to _ things, about the ban. yeah. this whole transition to net _ things, about the ban. yeah. this whole transition to net zero - things, about the ban. yeah. this whole transition to net zero is - whole transition to net zero is going to cost money. we have always known that. you mentioned earlier, chris stark from the committee on climate change, their original report was very clear that this can be done. they found it was going to be done. they found it was going to be cheaper than initially we thought it would be but there are costs, societal costs, industrial costs. for the industry we are spending that money, making those investments, we are putting the products on the market. you can't compel people to buy them. but if you are to deliver net zero you must decarbonise road transport in its entirety. the focus we have been talking about is on passenger cars, the same applies to vans, buses, trucks, it applies to the whole plethora of road transport. some of those technologies like hydrogen may meet certain solutions but the deadline, the target put before us six or seven years, compel a technology commercially available now, and that's why electrification will be the mainstay. we don't want to see any backtracking on that because it sends the wrong message. what about the price? it is because it sends the wrong message. what about the price?— what about the price? it is a new technology _ what about the price? it is a new technology and — what about the price? it is a new technology and it _ what about the price? it is a new technology and it is _ what about the price? it is a new technology and it is more - what about the price? it is a new. technology and it is more expensive and that's why you need to be pulling every single lever to help the consumer make that transition. when you charge, if you charge at home you pay 5% vat, charge on the road, these destinations, they are paying 20% vat, that's wrong. in terms of the cost of ownership, running one tends to be cheaper because service costs are lower if you can charge at home. there is a fiscal benefit if buying on company car in terms of purchase, that's why the majority of the initial transition is often now on the corporate buyer. but what else can we do to try and make sure we can drive down these costs? many other countries have incentives. we are facing a mandate which will compel the sale. but the fear is that is going to be a steep incline in the production, the take—up of these vehicles. but we can put them on the market, will people buy them? that is up to making sure that they are indeed affordable. so is up to making sure that they are indeed affordable.— is up to making sure that they are indeed affordable. so in a sense the market will dictate _ indeed affordable. so in a sense the market will dictate this _ indeed affordable. so in a sense the market will dictate this and - indeed affordable. so in a sense the market will dictate this and this - market will dictate this and this certainly concentrates minds. a couple of texts. what about terraced streets and tower blocks? where are the charges? another says, i've driven an electric vehicle for four months and had no problem with electric charging and the effect on pollution is unanswerable. and a in lincoln and also the mayoral car is now electric. if the commercial and political will is there we can easily achieve this modest end to fossil fuels. easily achieve this modest end to fossilfuels. we are easily achieve this modest end to fossil fuels. we are looking at a bmp fossil fuels. we are looking at a lamp post charging in lincoln and we need to have a real public transport system run by local authorities. the view there from lincoln. all views are absolutely brilliant on this. richard is in france. do you swear by them, richard? i have been driving electric for seven years and in that time i have saved £12,000 from what i was paying on diesel. it is not only because the fuel, also the zero servicing. because electric cars are generally one pedal drive in, you do not use the brakes, you don't wear out your brake pads. my first electric car had four years. when i sold it, the brake pads and discs were like new because i didn't use them. it has got brakes, in an emergency situation, you use them, but it is something so simple to drive and easy, so cost—effective, and silent of course. which is lovely. it has brought back the pleasure of driving to me. i had given up having pleasure driving. it is a whole new mindset, a whole new ball game, it is a no—brainer. mindset, a whole new ball game, it is a no-brainer._ is a no-brainer. marks out of ten for infrastructure _ is a no-brainer. marks out of ten for infrastructure in _ is a no-brainer. marks out of ten for infrastructure in france? - is a no-brainer. marks out of ten for infrastructure in france? it'sl for infrastructure in france? it's not ve for infrastructure in france? it's rrot very good. _ for infrastructure in france? it�*s not very good, they made a big mistake, they put slow chargers in all the villages but they did not put any rapid charges on the autoroutes. they are addressing that now but in england, you know, ten years ago we started putting rapid chargers on all the motorway services and i have been to two or three services in england lately where i they had one or two rapid chargers and now they have 30. so the infrastructure is building very quickly. the infrastructure is building very cuickl . ~ . the infrastructure is building very ruickl . . ., ., the infrastructure is building very cuickl. . ., �*, quickly. what about glasgow? let's to from quickly. what about glasgow? let's go from france. — quickly. what about glasgow? let's go from france, a _ quickly. what about glasgow? let's go from france, a lovely _ quickly. what about glasgow? let's go from france, a lovely village - quickly. what about glasgow? let's go from france, a lovely village in i go from france, a lovely village in france to the contribution that is glasgow in the central belt. i’m glasgow in the central belt. i'm sor ,i glasgow in the central belt. i'm sorry. i am _ glasgow in the central belt. i'm sorry. i am not— glasgow in the central belt. i'm sorry, i am not here to argue with anybody. — sorry, i am not here to argue with anybody, but i completely disagree on electric cars due to the fact that— on electric cars due to the fact that the — on electric cars due to the fact that the documentary on the children between _ that the documentary on the children between the ages of five, as young as three _ between the ages of five, as young as three to— between the ages of five, as young as three to the age of seven, not older— as three to the age of seven, not older because they are too big to go down _ older because they are too big to go down the _ older because they are too big to go down the mines for the lithium batteries _ down the mines for the lithium batteries. many die each day. just to give _ batteries. many die each day. just to give people electric cars. i'm sorry. _ to give people electric cars. i'm sorry, the — to give people electric cars. i'm sorry, the documentary was shown. we are here _ sorry, the documentary was shown. we are here to— sorry, the documentary was shown. we are here to fight for our children and the — are here to fight for our children and the future of our children, what about— and the future of our children, what about the _ and the future of our children, what about the future of the children who are dying _ about the future of the children who are dying every day. it is as bad as going _ are dying every day. it is as bad as going back— are dying every day. it is as bad as going back to the coal mines when the children had to do that work. what _ the children had to do that work. what about robert earlier on? nothing is perfect. look at human rights abuse, death and destruction on the trail of oil to petrol to the pumps here. it is bad!— on the trail of oil to petrol to the pumps here. it is bad! well, we have not all pumps here. it is bad! well, we have got all these — pumps here. it is bad! well, we have got all these fossil _ pumps here. it is bad! well, we have got all these fossil fuels, _ pumps here. it is bad! well, we have got all these fossil fuels, there - got all these fossil fuels, there are ways — got all these fossil fuels, there are ways of cleaning up the fossil fuels, _ are ways of cleaning up the fossil fuels, electric at the cost of all these — fuels, electric at the cost of all these children between the age of three _ these children between the age of three and — these children between the age of three and seven should not be acceptable. three and seven should not be acceptable-— three and seven should not be accetable. . ~ ,. , . , acceptable. thank you very much, she did not acceptable. thank you very much, she did rrot wish — acceptable. thank you very much, she did rrot wish to — acceptable. thank you very much, she did not wish to argue _ acceptable. thank you very much, she did not wish to argue with _ acceptable. thank you very much, she did not wish to argue with anyone, - acceptable. thank you very much, she did not wish to argue with anyone, a l did not wish to argue with anyone, a very strong point and it will be interesting to get reactions to what we have heard so far in our first half hour or so. so the ban, 2030, is it realistic? more to come. get in touch. and here is the news. changes to alcohol duty is the news. have come into force — meaning drinks will now be taxed according to how strong they are. the government says the new system is "common sense" — but critics argue it will have an impact the latest figures show the rate at which food prices are going up — has dropped to its lowest level — since last december. statistics from the british retail consortium show food inflation slowed to 13.4% — injuly. the nationwide building society says the average house now costs nearly 261,000 pounds. new figures show the uk's average house price fell by nearly li—percent — in the year tojuly. that's the biggest drop since 2009. the owners of the uk's newest spaceport say they're weeks away from getting permission to launch rockets into space. the first orbital launch from the saxavord space centre on the shetland islands — is due to take place next year. all eyes will be on the england teamsheet in the build up to their final women's world cup group game against china this lunchtime. the big question is who comes in to replace injured play—maker keira walsh — she was stretchered off with a knee injury in the win over denmark on friday. kick off is at 12, we'll have all the build up here on slive from 11. right now the final matches are taking place in group e. holders usa vs portugal. the usa need at least a point to progress. netherlands are currently top of the group they're thrashing vietnam. liverpool's fabinho has moved to al—ittihad for £40 million. crystal palace are set to sign the brazil under—20 international midfielder matheus franca from flamengo for a reported £26 million. harry kane continues to be linked with bayern munich. more talks reportedly took place with tottenham yesterday. and frankie dettori will chase a record sixth win in the goodwood cup at 4:35. it's the feature race on the opening day of horse racing's glorious goodwood. dettori is on—board his royal ascot gold cup winner courage mon ami and faces the runner—up coltrane. let me tell you about ten o'clock. alcohol tax: is it too strong? a major shake—up of how alcohol is taxed. the basic principle is that duty is being set in relation to a drink�*s strength. the higher the alcohol content — the higher the tax. here's some figures from the wine and spirit trade association. an extra [dip on a bottle of red wine, 97p on sherry, £1.30 on port, 76p on vodka. the national newspaper in scotland reports anger they are, very much scotch on the rocks, each bottle taxed at 75%. stronger beer — over 4.5% — will cost 4p more in shops but stays the same on draught — in what is billed as a measure to support pubs. we know what landlords and ladies —— landladies have been through in the past. do you upload this? what do you think? so what do you think to the cost of booze? in pubs and in shops? the cost to individuals and society? a blight on society? do they have these problems in helsinki as they do in hull? no disrespect to hull. let's talk about alcohol tax, is it too strong? at ten o'clock. the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030, is it realistic? should it be delayed? is it absolute madness or an absolute necessity? coming up, it is nick and chris, and ken, the ceo of motor services. hello, ken.— chris, and ken, the ceo of motor services. hello, ken. how are you? man? are — services. hello, ken. how are you? man? are we _ services. hello, ken. how are you? man? are we going _ services. hello, ken. how are you? man? are we going to _ services. hello, ken. how are you? man? are we going to get - services. hello, ken. how are you? man? are we going to get to - services. hello, ken. how are you? man? are we going to get to 2013? j man? are we going to get to 2013? seriously? 0nly man? are we going to get to 2013? seriously? only if the government take decisive action and start planning the power that is required which i have been speaking to them and particularly the minister of state for decarbonisation for some time now saying the biggest problem we have is i do not believe the grid has sufficient power for the number of chargers and in that amount of charge that ev drivers are going to need unless decisive action that is taken now. we have got as an example of that, four of our motorway service areas at the moment setting with charges which have no power, they are not connected. ev drivers when they understandably pull up to charge are getting frustrated and the power i think has been underestimated by the government. when they put the ban in place, the amount of power for electricity they would need to provide to give ev drivers confidence that they would be able to drive on theirjourney and safely be able to charge, as one of your callers were saying earlier, on a journey for you might need to charge one we're going to your destination and another returning home, to give you an idea of the amount of power, just for moto alone, in seven years' time, will need the equivalent power produced by an averaged sized new claire perry station, will need 25% of that powerjust perry station, will need 25% of that power just for moto perry station, will need 25% of that powerjust for moto chargers. —— power just for moto chargers. —— nuclear powerjust for moto chargers. —— nuclear power station. [30 powerjust for moto chargers. -- nuclear power station.— powerjust for moto chargers. -- nuclear power station. do you think we miaht nuclear power station. do you think we might drift _ nuclear power station. do you think we might drift away _ nuclear power station. do you think we might drift away from _ nuclear power station. do you think we might drift away from those - we might drift away from those deadlines for practical reasons? i hope we do not. i hope the government listens. basically compels the power companies to provide sufficient power at the time that it provide sufficient power at the time thatitis provide sufficient power at the time that it is needed. i have written to the government and said what they should do is set targets, not for the number of chargers that we need, but the amount of power that we need on a region by region basis. and annually, between 2030, to give ev drivers the confidence they will be sufficient chargers and power for them to travel around the uk. it is them to travel around the uk. it is about political— them to travel around the uk. it is about political will, and there are refusers on the tory backbenchers, when it comes to priorities, one wonders, thank you for all the text and phone calls. good morning, nick, what do you think?— what do you think? fun? what do you think? we have _ what do you think? fun? what do you think? we have lost _ what do you think? fun? what do you think? we have lost him. _ what do you think? fun? what do you think? we have lost him. we - what do you think? fun? what do you think? we have lost him. we have - think? we have lost him. we have got chris and terry. _ think? we have lost him. we have got chris and terry, who _ think? we have lost him. we have got chris and terry, who needs _ think? we have lost him. we have got chris and terry, who needs nick? - chris and terry, who needs nick? come back, neck. chris in manchester. is this achievable? 2032 i do not think so. i am a driver, a courier driver, i do deliveries. 70 to £80, i get out of my diesel, my electrical vehicle, to £80, i get out of my diesel, my electricalvehicle, i to £80, i get out of my diesel, my electrical vehicle, i used 10% during 15 miles. if i had one of those vehicles for work, i would stop three times a day, it is not feasible for myjob. i would not be doing thisjob any feasible for myjob. i would not be doing this job any more. feasible for myjob. i would not be doing thisjob any more. in my text message, to get to and from work, it is forcing me out of the job. if you force me to go electric, you are forcing me out of the job. it is not feasible. i can go down to london and back on a full tank of diesel without stopping. i would stop twice without stopping. i would stop twice with an electric vehicle on the way down and then i have to stop on the way back. it is going to take over five hours to do the journey, it is not doable. the batteries are not usable, they do not have enough charge or keep it long enough. the only people i have found, the hybrid is ok, but they are going to ban them so what's the point? terry, what do you _ them so what's the point? terry, what do you think? _ them so what's the point? terry, what do you think? can - them so what's the point? terry, what do you think? can you - them so what's the point? terry, what do you think? can you hear| them so what's the point? terry, - what do you think? can you hear me? in what do you think? can you hear me? in london. — what do you think? can you hear me? in london. l — what do you think? can you hear me? in london. i do _ what do you think? can you hear me? in london, | do 1000 _ what do you think? can you hear me? in london, i do 1000 miles— what do you think? can you hear me? in london, i do 1000 miles a - what do you think? can you hear me? in london, i do 1000 miles a week. . in london, i do 1000 miles a week. they— in london, i do 1000 miles a week. they have _ in london, i do 1000 miles a week. they have got customers and go on a lon- they have got customers and go on a long journey, they have got customers and go on a longjourney, i they have got customers and go on a long journey, i don't think they want _ long journey, i don't think they want me — long journey, i don't think they want me to pull into a service station, — want me to pull into a service station, that is not part of the deal — station, that is not part of the deal if— station, that is not part of the deal if i — station, that is not part of the deal. if i go on a long journey, i will be — deal. if i go on a long journey, i will be struggling, do you call the breakdown people to charge you up? it is breakdown people to charge you up? it is not _ breakdown people to charge you up? it is not fit _ breakdown people to charge you up? it is not fit for purpose. for my job. _ it is not fit for purpose. for my job, it — it is not fit for purpose. for my job, it is — it is not fit for purpose. for my job, it is not _ it is not fit for purpose. for my job, it is not fit for purpose. i drive — job, it is not fit for purpose. i drive customers, and i go on long 'obs drive customers, and i go on long jobs sometimes. people are not going to, i jobs sometimes. people are not going to, i don't— jobs sometimes. people are not going to, i don't blame them, i have to charge _ to, i don't blame them, i have to charge the — to, i don't blame them, i have to charge the motor up, the range anxiety. — charge the motor up, the range anxiety. i— charge the motor up, the range anxiety, i could have half a tank of electric— anxiety, i could have half a tank of electric or— anxiety, i could have half a tank of electric or whatever you call it, and i_ electric or whatever you call it, and i have _ electric or whatever you call it, and i have to turn down lucrative 'obs and i have to turn down lucrative jobs because i don't have enough electric— jobs because i don't have enough electric to — jobs because i don't have enough electric to do the job. i was hoping in about— electric to do the job. i was hoping in about 20 — electric to do the job. i was hoping in about 20 years' time, some drivers— in about 20 years' time, some drivers on— in about 20 years' time, some drivers on my company to have electric— drivers on my company to have electric motors, but i do not think it will— electric motors, but i do not think it will work— electric motors, but i do not think it will work for me,...— it will work for me,... corus in particular. _ it will work for me,... corus in particular. he _ it will work for me,... corus in particular, he is _ it will work for me,... corus in particular, he is out _ it will work for me,... corus in particular, he is out of- it will work for me,... corus in particular, he is out of a - it will work for me,... corus in particular, he is out of a job! l it will work for me,... corus in i particular, he is out of a job! the particular, he is out of a 'ob! the ranue particular, he is out of a 'ob! the range anxiety * particular, he is out of a 'ob! the range anxiety is h particular, he is out of a job! tie: range anxiety is very real, particular, he is out of a job! tt9 range anxiety is very real, we see that as the second biggest reason people do not want an ev car, the first one being the price of an ev car. it hurt a caller earlier saying something needs to be done to equalise the cost of an ev car. 0n the range anxiety, it is very real. i have been driving an electric car for two years, i start every morning look at how many miles i have got left. i never used to do that with an internal combustion engine car. all through thejourney, an internal combustion engine car. all through the journey, i am looking at the miles running down and trying to work out where i am going to get charge quickly enough that i can continue the journey. we took a decision at moto that we would install the fastest ultra rapid chargers that are available and that is 350 kilowatts, and they will allow you to charge about 100 miles of charge on your car in five to ten minutes. when they are available, they definitely reduce range anxiety, but the government's target was to have six ultra rapid chargers on each... motorway service area. that is not sufficient. in two days' time, we are going to have a0 ultra rapid chargers at our newest motorway service area which is rugby, and the week after, we will have 50 ultra rapid chargers at exeter. that is only because we have been able to get the power to get that many charges down. what electric drivers want, they want to pull into a service station, and have a choice of chargers and be able to get on, charge quickly, and get on their way. ? you have got a map behind you, i am seeing the route from london to edinburgh. is route from london to edinburgh. is there a problem there is that not a problem? iterate there a problem there is that not a nroblem? ~ :. there a problem there is that not a nroblem? . . ., , :,, problem? we have a problem in stirlinn. problem? we have a problem in stirling- we _ problem? we have a problem in stirling. we have _ problem? we have a problem in stirling. we have got _ problem? we have a problem in stirling. we have got problemsl stirling. we have got problems across the whole of the country. you don't have to — across the whole of the country. you don't have to go _ across the whole of the country. you don't have to go to stirling to go from london to edinburgh. you would have ranne from london to edinburgh. you would have range anxiety _ from london to edinburgh. you would have range anxiety going _ from london to edinburgh. you would have range anxiety going from - from london to edinburgh. you would | have range anxiety going from london to edinburgh. depending on where the ultra rapid chargers where, and the power company and whether they have been able to put power in place. if you are going by the m —— m62, or by the m6or a1, and are trying to find a motorway service area with sufficient ultra rapid chargers, you still have the legacy on a lot of motorway service areas, of two 50 kilowatts chargers because only two or three years ago, each motorway service area only had to have 250 kilowatts chargers. today, that is not sufficient. in june kilowatts chargers. today, that is not sufficient. injune alone, we actually gave 3 million kilowatts of charge to motorists. that is the equivalent forjune of 9 million miles of charge that we've provided. if you arrive at a motorway service area, that has got sufficient numbers of chargers, if you are going up, at wetherby, wetherby has got 12 ultra rapid chargers, you will feel comfortable you are going to get sufficient charge... 50 it will feel comfortable you are going to get sufficient charge. . .- to get sufficient charge... so it is not the to get sufficient charge... so it is rrot the same _ to get sufficient charge... so it is not the same everywhere, - to get sufficient charge... so it is not the same everywhere, i - to get sufficient charge... so it is not the same everywhere, i have| to get sufficient charge... so it is - not the same everywhere, i have got caller anxiety, brilliant points, chris in manchester, i want you to stay there because somebody might address your problem in just a second. let's get some more voices. and she in staple, your experience. we have lost her. we have got darren in norwich. can you make your point? i can understand why they want electric— i can understand why they want electric cars, we use a horsebox to transport _ electric cars, we use a horsebox to transport horses all around the country. — transport horses all around the country, nobody is making electric car horseboxes at the moment, by 2030. _ car horseboxes at the moment, by 2030, you're looking at a cost of 80 to 200,000, we cannot afford that to transport _ to 200,000, we cannot afford that to transport horses. and the electricity part of it, we have to travel _ electricity part of it, we have to travel from here to scotland, how many _ travel from here to scotland, how many times are you going to stop to charge _ many times are you going to stop to charge your— many times are you going to stop to charge your lorry with an anxious horse _ charge your lorry with an anxious horse two — charge your lorry with an anxious horse two live animals, you cannot do that _ horse two live animals, you cannot do that. :. . :. . do that. that is an interesting noint. do that. that is an interesting point- are _ do that. that is an interesting point- are you _ do that. that is an interesting point. are you still _ do that. that is an interesting point. are you still there, - do that. that is an interesting i point. are you still there, chris? are you still with us a few head of climate policy at the green alliance, in the time we have, speak to these guys. chris says, i cannot do the same mileage in an electric car, if he is forced to buy electric, he is out of a job. electric, he is out of a 'ob. there are lots electric, he is out of a 'ob. there lots of t electric, he is out of a 'ob. there are lots of different _ electric, he is out of a job. there are lots of different types - electric, he is out of a job. there are lots of different types of - are lots of different types of electrical vehicles on the market, some have better range than others and i take the point for very long journeys, at the moment the charging structure might not be sufficient on some journeys to charge at the speed you might want to in the same way you might want to in the same way you can quickly fill up a petrol car. it is really important to remember that 70% of carjourneys in the uk are five miles are under and every single ev can do five miles easily. lots of them have got ranges of 100s of miles, i am not disputing the fact that we need to improve our charging infrastructure across the uk, it is condensed in urban areas like london of course, and there is a problem that i think has been mentioned about vat on public charging versus people who are charging versus people who are charging on their own driveway. that has to be addressed to bring costs down for people as well. i has to be addressed to bring costs down for people as well.— down for people as well. i have a messane down for people as well. i have a message here. — down for people as well. i have a message here, asking _ down for people as well. i have a message here, asking about - down for people as well. i have a message here, asking about the| message here, asking about the second—hand market and reconditioning calls and how those on low incomes are ever going to be able to afford one. i am going to put that one out there. what are your thoughts on that? the put that one out there. what are your thoughts on that?— put that one out there. what are your thoughts on that? the way 2030 nhase out your thoughts on that? the way 2030 phase out new _ your thoughts on that? the way 2030 phase out new sales, _ your thoughts on that? the way 2030 phase out new sales, the _ your thoughts on that? the way 2030 j phase out new sales, the government is going to introduce zero emission vehicles mandate from every year to 2030, sales targets to car manufacturers, this will start flooding the first—hand market with electric vehicles which then slots the second and third had market with electric vehicles and brings price points then, it is a market mechanism, it will be more competitive on will come down. i do not think anyone is suggesting that first—hand electric vehicles are price competitive with petrol and diesel cars, that is the whole point of the market mechanism to bring costs down. it is economic. the more we manufacture and bridges, the lower the cost will be. i we manufacture and bridges, the lower the cost will be.— we manufacture and bridges, the lower the cost will be. i liked your noints, lower the cost will be. i liked your points. darren _ lower the cost will be. i liked your points, darren in _ lower the cost will be. i liked your points, darren in norwich, - lower the cost will be. i liked your points, darren in norwich, an - points, darren in norwich, an interesting point.— points, darren in norwich, an interesting point. you are talking about cars. _ interesting point. you are talking about cars, hgv _ interesting point. you are talking about cars, hgv driver _ interesting point. you are talking about cars, hgv driver who - interesting point. you are talking - about cars, hgv driver who transport live animals — about cars, hgv driver who transport live animals. by 2030? do i have to -ive live animals. by 2030? do i have to give up _ live animals. by 2030? do i have to give up my— live animals. by 2030? do i have to give up my business because i personally will not be able to afford — personally will not be able to afford an electric horsebox? the 2013 date afford an electric horsebox? tt9 2013 date applies to cars and vans. there will be sacred targets for lorries and trucks and bigger vehicles. that has not been legislated for yet.— vehicles. that has not been legislated for yet. vehicles. that has not been lenislated for et. . :, :, legislated for yet. who pays for it? the onus will _ legislated for yet. who pays for it? the onus will be _ legislated for yet. who pays for it? the onus will be on _ legislated for yet. who pays for it? the onus will be on manufacturers| legislated for yet. who pays for it? l the onus will be on manufacturers to start manufacturing electric vehicles whether it be trucks or lorries or horseboxes instead. again, the same economic rules will apply, the cost will come down as more manufacturers... there are really great programmes on electric trucks and lorries going on at the moment, lots of manufacturers switching to battery and electric. i switching to battery and electric. i understand that, i do not have to hundred — understand that, i do not have to hundred thousand pounds to buy a new horsebox. _ hundred thousand pounds to buy a new horsebox, that is the average cost, if i horsebox, that is the average cost, if i had _ horsebox, that is the average cost, if i had an— horsebox, that is the average cost, if i had an electric one. if horsebox, that is the average cost, if i had an electric one.— if i had an electric one. if the date was _ if i had an electric one. if the date was 2040, _ if i had an electric one. if the date was 2040, you - if i had an electric one. if the date was 2040, you could i if i had an electric one. if the | date was 2040, you could buy if i had an electric one. if the i date was 2040, you could buy a date was 20a0, you could buy a brand—new electric diesel horsebox, and you could buy a second one —— second—hand one, it is not a ban completely, just not having to buy a new one. completely, 'ust not having to buy a new one. :. . . completely, 'ust not having to buy a new one. . ,, z: completely, 'ust not having to buy a new one. ., ,, 1:1; ., new one. perhaps the 2013 deadline is not as forbidding _ new one. perhaps the 2013 deadline is not as forbidding as _ new one. perhaps the 2013 deadline is not as forbidding as some - new one. perhaps the 2013 deadline is not as forbidding as some people| is not as forbidding as some people think it is. i am crossing my fingers, are you there? i think it is. i am crossing my fingers, are you there? i got cut off. then. _ fingers, are you there? i got cut off- then. are — fingers, are you there? i got cut off. then, are we _ fingers, are you there? i got cut off. then, are we going - fingers, are you there? i got cut off. then, are we going to - fingers, are you there? i got cut off. then, are we going to make fingers, are you there? i got cut - off. then, are we going to make the 2030 _ off. then, are we going to make the 2030 ban _ off. then, are we going to make the 2030 ban should _ off. then, are we going to make the 2030 ban should we _ off. then, are we going to make the 2030 ban should we be _ off. then, are we going to make the 2030 ban should we be going - off. then, are we going to make the 2030 ban should we be going for. off. then, are we going to make thej 2030 ban should we be going for it? my experience — 2030 ban should we be going for it? my experience was _ 2030 ban should we be going for it? my experience was not _ 2030 ban should we be going for it? my experience was not good. - 2030 ban should we be going for it? my experience was not good. i - 2030 ban should we be going for it? i my experience was not good. i picked up my experience was not good. i picked up a car, _ my experience was not good. i picked up a car, a _ my experience was not good. i picked up a car, a brand—new— my experience was not good. i picked up a car, a brand—new fan, _ my experience was not good. i picked up a car, a brand—new fan, one - my experience was not good. i picked up a car, a brand—new fan, one week| up a car, a brand—new fan, one week before _ up a car, a brand—new fan, one week before christmas, _ up a car, a brand—new fan, one week before christmas, we _ up a car, a brand—new fan, one week before christmas, we were _ up a car, a brand—new fan, one week before christmas, we were going - up a car, a brand—new fan, one week before christmas, we were going to. before christmas, we were going to liverpool— before christmas, we were going to liverpool to — before christmas, we were going to liverpool to stay _ before christmas, we were going to liverpool to stay with _ before christmas, we were going to liverpool to stay with friends. - before christmas, we were going to liverpool to stay with friends. i - liverpool to stay with friends. i was obviously _ liverpool to stay with friends. i was obviously very _ liverpool to stay with friends. i was obviously very naive, - liverpool to stay with friends. i - was obviously very naive, listening to what _ was obviously very naive, listening to what i_ was obviously very naive, listening to what i was— was obviously very naive, listening to what i was told _ was obviously very naive, listening to what i was told by— was obviously very naive, listening to what i was told by the _ was obviously very naive, listening to what i was told by the garages, | was obviously very naive, listening | to what i was told by the garages, i was told _ to what i was told by the garages, i was told i_ to what i was told by the garages, i was told i would _ to what i was told by the garages, i was told i would get _ to what i was told by the garages, i was told i would get 200 _ to what i was told by the garages, i was told i would get 200 miles - to what i was told by the garages, i was told i would get 200 miles on. was told i would get 200 miles on the motorway. _ was told i would get 200 miles on the motorway, hundred _ was told i would get 200 miles on the motorway, hundred and - was told i would get 200 miles on the motorway, hundred and 60, l was told i would get 200 miles on i the motorway, hundred and 60, and was told i would get 200 miles on - the motorway, hundred and 60, and we started _ the motorway, hundred and 60, and we started our— the motorway, hundred and 60, and we started ourjourney, _ the motorway, hundred and 60, and we started ourjourney, and _ the motorway, hundred and 60, and we started ourjourney, and 65— the motorway, hundred and 60, and we started ourjourney, and 65 miles- the motorway, hundred and 60, and we started ourjourney, and 65 miles n, . started ourjourney, and 65 miles n, we were _ started ourjourney, and 65 miles n, we were already _ started ourjourney, and 65 miles n, we were already charging. _ started ourjourney, and 65 miles n, we were already charging. another. started ourjourney, and 65 miles n, i we were already charging. another 60 miles n, _ we were already charging. another 60 miles n, we _ we were already charging. another 60 miles nn we were— we were already charging. another 60 miles n, we were charging, _ we were already charging. another 60 miles n, we were charging, but - we were already charging. another 60 miles n, we were charging, but when| miles n, we were charging, but when we arrived, _ miles n, we were charging, but when we arrived, at — miles n, we were charging, but when we arrived, at the _ miles n, we were charging, but when we arrived, at the garages, _ miles n, we were charging, but when we arrived, at the garages, there - we arrived, at the garages, there was no _ we arrived, at the garages, there was no chargers _ we arrived, at the garages, there was no chargers. they— we arrived, at the garages, there was no chargers. they were - we arrived, at the garages, therel was no chargers. they were either broken _ was no chargers. they were either broken or— was no chargers. they were either broken or for— was no chargers. they were either broken or for specialist _ was no chargers. they were either broken or for specialist cars. - was no chargers. they were either broken or for specialist cars. we l broken or for specialist cars. we were _ broken or for specialist cars. we were sitting _ broken or for specialist cars. we were sitting waiting, _ broken or for specialist cars. we were sitting waiting, three, - broken or for specialist cars. we were sitting waiting, three, fourj were sitting waiting, three, four hours _ were sitting waiting, three, four hoursjust— were sitting waiting, three, four hours just to _ were sitting waiting, three, four hours just to charge _ were sitting waiting, three, four hours just to charge the - were sitting waiting, three, four hours just to charge the car- were sitting waiting, three, four hoursjust to charge the car up. | were sitting waiting, three, four- hoursjust to charge the car up. and the anxiety! — hoursjust to charge the car up. and the anxiety! as— hoursjust to charge the car up. and the anxiety! as you _ hoursjust to charge the car up. and the anxiety! as you are _ hoursjust to charge the car up. and the anxiety! as you are driving - the anxiety! as you are driving along, — the anxiety! as you are driving along, you _ the anxiety! as you are driving along, you are _ the anxiety! as you are driving along, you are thinking, - the anxiety! as you are driving along, you are thinking, if- the anxiety! as you are driving along, you are thinking, if i. the anxiety! as you are drivingi along, you are thinking, if i get the anxiety! as you are driving - along, you are thinking, if i get to the next _ along, you are thinking, if i get to the next garage. _ along, you are thinking, if i get to the next garage, is— along, you are thinking, if i get to the next garage, is it _ along, you are thinking, if i get to the next garage, is it going - along, you are thinking, if i get to the next garage, is it going to - along, you are thinking, if i get to the next garage, is it going to bei the next garage, is it going to be working? — the next garage, is it going to be working? we _ the next garage, is it going to be working? we have _ the next garage, is it going to be working? we have only— the next garage, is it going to be working? we have only got- the next garage, is it going to be working? we have only got 20 i the next garage, is it going to be . working? we have only got 20 miles left. working? we have only got 20 miles left the _ working? we have only got 20 miles left. the anxiety— working? we have only got 20 miles left. the anxiety was _ working? we have only got 20 miles left. the anxiety was absolutely- left. the anxiety was absolutely terrible! — left. the anxiety was absolutely terrible! ~ :. left. the anxiety was absolutely terrible! . . ., , left. the anxiety was absolutely terrible! . . ~ left. the anxiety was absolutely terrible! . ~ ,, terrible! what was it like? queen it was really bad _ terrible! what was it like? queen it was really bad and _ terrible! what was it like? queen it was really bad and i _ terrible! what was it like? queen it was really bad and i have _ terrible! what was it like? queen it was really bad and i have autistic. was really bad and i have autistic children, they were bouncing off the ceiling, and in the end, we had to stay overnight in a hotel overnight. charge the car up overnight, and then— charge the car up overnight, and then carry— charge the car up overnight, and then carry on _ charge the car up overnight, and then carry on and _ charge the car up overnight, and then carry on and do _ charge the car up overnight, and then carry on and do our- charge the car up overnight, and then carry on and do ourjourney| charge the car up overnight, and . then carry on and do ourjourney at then carry on and do ourjourney at the next _ then carry on and do ourjourney at the next day — then carry on and do ourjourney at the next day it— then carry on and do ourjourney at the next day. it actually— then carry on and do ourjourney at the next day. it actually cost - then carry on and do ourjourney at the next day. it actually cost me i the next day. it actually cost me three _ the next day. it actually cost me three times _ the next day. it actually cost me three times the _ the next day. it actually cost me three times the amount - the next day. it actually cost me i three times the amount of money it have in— three times the amount of money it have in petrol. _ three times the amount of money it have in petrol, and _ three times the amount of money it have in petrol, and it— three times the amount of money it have in petrol, and it took- three times the amount of money it have in petrol, and it took us, i three times the amount of money it have in petrol, and it took us, say, i have in petrol, and it took us, say, nearly— have in petrol, and it took us, say, nearly two— have in petrol, and it took us, say, nearly two days _ have in petrol, and it took us, say, nearly two days to _ have in petrol, and it took us, say, nearly two days to get _ have in petrol, and it took us, say, nearly two days to get there - have in petrol, and it took us, say, i nearly two days to get there instead of five _ nearly two days to get there instead of five or— nearly two days to get there instead of five or six— nearly two days to get there instead of five or six hours _ nearly two days to get there instead of five or six hours which _ nearly two days to get there instead of five or six hours which normally l of five or six hours which normally would _ of five or six hours which normally would 0n— of five or six hours which normally would on our— of five or six hours which normally would. on our return, _ of five or six hours which normally would. on our return, i— of five or six hours which normally would. on our return, i took- of five or six hours which normally would. on our return, i took it- of five or six hours which normally. would. on our return, i took it back to the _ would. on our return, i took it back to the garage — would. on our return, i took it back to the garage to— would. on our return, i took it back to the garage to be _ would. on our return, i took it back to the garage to be told _ would. on our return, i took it back to the garage to be told if- would. on our return, i took it back to the garage to be told if you i would. on our return, i took it back to the garage to be told if you are l to the garage to be told if you are going _ to the garage to be told if you are going to _ to the garage to be told if you are going to do — to the garage to be told if you are going to do long _ to the garage to be told if you are going to do long journeys - to the garage to be told if you are going to do long journeys like i to the garage to be told if you are. going to do long journeys like that, you need _ going to do long journeys like that, you need to — going to do long journeys like that, you need to hire _ going to do long journeys like that, you need to hire a _ going to do long journeys like that, you need to hire a car. _ going to do long journeys like that, you need to hire a car.— you need to hire a car. well, well. it was you need to hire a car. well, well. it was done _ you need to hire a car. well, well. it was done through _ you need to hire a car. well, well. it was done through motor- you need to hire a car. well, well. it was done through motor ability, you need to hire a car. well, well. | it was done through motor ability, i lost the _ it was done through motor ability, i lost the deposit _ it was done through motor ability, i lost the deposit on _ it was done through motor ability, i lost the deposit on the _ it was done through motor ability, i lost the deposit on the car, - lost the deposit on the car, they accepted — lost the deposit on the car, they accepted the _ lost the deposit on the car, they accepted the car— lost the deposit on the car, they accepted the car back. - lost the deposit on the car, they accepted the car back.— lost the deposit on the car, they accepted the car back. what about the bi ner accepted the car back. what about the bigger picture _ accepted the car back. what about the bigger picture a _ accepted the car back. what about the bigger picture a few _ accepted the car back. what about the bigger picture a few another . the bigger picture a few another thing to point out, second—hand market, on low income buying a five k car cannot afford the reconditioning course, that is happening now. that is from a car dealer, joan. the bigger picture, it is good to talk about this as we close before we talk about alcohol, head of climate policy at the green alliance, given the bigger picture with a bit of rollback going on here on green issues, thinking about the election, some would think short—sighted lee thinking about the here and now, there is so much for the government to do to make this work, do you think it is going to happen? work, do you think it is going to ha-nen? work, do you think it is going to ha- nen? :, ., , work, do you think it is going to ha-nen? :, ., work, do you think it is going to ha. nen? ., .,, ., happen? the government has got good ambition on this, _ happen? the government has got good ambition on this, 2034 _ happen? the government has got good ambition on this, 2034 this _ happen? the government has got good ambition on this, 2034 this target. i ambition on this, 203a this target. some of them are warbling. iterate ambition on this, 2034 this target. some of them are warbling. we heard from a minister— some of them are warbling. we heard from a minister on _ some of them are warbling. we heard from a minister on the _ some of them are warbling. we heard from a minister on the bbc— some of them are warbling. we heard from a minister on the bbc today i from a minister on the bbc today programme this morning saying 2030 is still the target date, and manufacturers in the uk are set up and ready to go, we have had an announcement about big investment from government into a bigger factory, land rover, creatingjobs, lots of progress in europe, and china on electric vehicles, this is where the global market is going and they did a brilliant thing by setting an early date, not disputing the fact lots is still to be done, they cannot set a target and not intervene, there is a lot to be done on charging, a lot to be done about electric vehicle and battery manufacturing in the uk, there is a lot to be done about dispelling myths. we have heard from listeners who are not quite... they are not getting communicated properly that 2030 is not a ban on all petrol and diesel in the uk, only a new sales, second—hand vehicles will be available for sale long after 2030. i think it is doable. the ambition is there, we need more support from government and clear communication about what the date actually means. thank you so much for getting in touch. try the next one. alcohol, the tax, is it too strong? it has been announced today. just to be transparent, i drink. your views on this major shake—up of how alcohol is taxed. the basic principle, due to being set in relation to drink�*s strength. the higher the alcohol content, the higher the tax. wine and spirit trade association, let me give you these figures to concentrate the mind. an extra aap on a bottle of red wine, 97p on sherry, £1.30 on port, 76p on vodka. 7596 75% on a bottle of malt whiskey, blended or whatever, will be taxed as well. and pubs, this is being billed as very good for pubs because the balance will be altered to what it costs in an off—licence and what it costs in an off—licence and what it costs in an off—licence and what it costs in a pub. a lot of landlords and landladies and pub owners are welcoming this. over 150 pubs in england and wales have shut down in the first three months of 2023 and at least 50 pubs closing down per month, significantjump from 32 pubs lost per month during the whole of 2022. it has been really tough in the sector. last year 386 pubs were lost for good. the pub is the hub. think of some of the best pubs you have been to, what wonderful places as well. what do you think about the cost of booze in pubs and shops, the cost to individuals, of course, the cost to society? the alcohol tax, is it too strong? here is the news from karishma patel. thank you. changes to alcohol duty have come into force. it means stronger drinks will be more expensive. the government says the new system is "common sense" — but some alcohol companies argue it will affect businesses. retailers say the rate at which food prices are rising is at its lowest level — since last december. new figures from the british retail consortium show food inflation slowed to 13.a% last month — thanks to the falling cost of goods like cereals and fish. moscow's mayor says a skycraper in the city was hit by a drone — for the second time in two days. he added that several drones were shot down overnight. russia blames ukraine — but kyiv hasn't commented. the kremlin also says it destroyed three unmanned ukrainian boats — trying to attack its naval ships in the black sea. the chair of parliament's housing committee is calling on regulators to look into how tenants are chosen for affordable housing. the bbc found many of the schemes in london exclude people earning over £30,000 a year — because they don't earn enough. massive cost to society, massive cost of the nhs, massive indirect costs as well from the amount we drink in society, and we do neck it. mind you, with all the stuff going on in the world, all of the shebang, give me a cold one sometimes! with prices still rising but at a slower rate the government will go ahead with this 10.1% rise in alcohol duties, overhauling the system. drinks with alcohol by volume, a bv below 3.5% taxed at a lower rate, tax on drinks with an abv of 8.5% will stay the same whether it is wine, spirits or beer. sparkling wine, spirits or beer. sparkling wine previously taxed at a higher rate, distilled wine will be 19p cheaper, for a higher rate, still wine will be 19p cheaper, first understrength bottle. if retailers pat on the tax changes by lowering prices. a can of premixed gin and tonic would be 5p cheaper as well. this is bigger stronger beer over a.5% will cost ap more in the shops but stays the same on draught. this is interesting. this is part of the cell. may be a sound too cynical, but it's part of the reason they are doing it to support the pubs, 08085 909693, 08085 some say it is too expensive and some too cheap, is it too strong, this alcohol tax? transport minister richard holden was on the television this morning and he stressed that pubs were very much at the heart of this decision. pubs are the heart of the community, they were a lot of people like myself had their firstjob, really important for hospitality, really important for hospitality, really important for hospitality, really important for jobs important for hospitality, really important forjobs for young important for hospitality, really important for jobs for young people and a real heart of many communities up—and—down the country. that's why i think we want to see lower tax wherever possible on pubs, and we also have to acknowledge that the hospitality sector has had a really tough time over the last few years and anything that we can do to help our pubs and clubs across the country i want to see us doing it. we have always seen public and is upset about the fact supermarkets are able to massively discounted prices and this is trying to tip that balance back in the favour of our 38,000 plus pubs and clubs across the country.— across the country. there is the transport _ across the country. there is the transport minister _ across the country. there is the transport minister richard - across the country. there is the l transport minister richard holden talking about it. a quick text, one just in, looking at the console, i don't believe it will put people off, our drinking culture is to embed it, that's from tracy in belfast. mike beale, chief executive of the wine and spirit trade association.— of the wine and spirit trade i association._ mark association. good morning. mark dickson, landlord _ association. good morning. mark dickson, landlord of— association. good morning. mark dickson, landlord of the - association. good morning. mark dickson, landlord of the king i association. good morning. markl dickson, landlord of the king arms in norfolk— dickson, landlord of the king arms in norfolk flood hello, mark. hello, how are _ in norfolk flood hello, mark. hello, how are you? do in norfolk flood hello, mark. hello, how are you?— in norfolk flood hello, mark. hello, how are ou? ,, , how are you? do you like this, mark? is this how are you? do you like this, mark? is this good? — how are you? do you like this, mark? is this good? i— how are you? do you like this, mark? is this good? i believe _ how are you? do you like this, mark? is this good? i believe so _ how are you? do you like this, mark? is this good? i believe so but - how are you? do you like this, mark? is this good? i believe so but it - how are you? do you like this, mark? is this good? i believe so but it is i is this good? i believe so but it is hard to tell _ is this good? i believe so but it is hard to tell because _ is this good? i believe so but it is hard to tell because it _ is this good? i believe so but it is hard to tell because it hasn't i hard to tell because it hasn't really— hard to tell because it hasn't really kicked in properly yet until today _ really kicked in properly yet until today. but it sounds good, so fingers — today. but it sounds good, so fingers crossed, anything to help us in the _ fingers crossed, anything to help us in the trade — fingers crossed, anything to help us in the trade is nice. the last few years— in the trade is nice. the last few years have — in the trade is nice. the last few years have been tough on everybody, not just _ years have been tough on everybody, notjust on— years have been tough on everybody, not just on people years have been tough on everybody, notjust on people in pubs but people — notjust on people in pubs but people around the world. but anything _ people around the world. but anything to get more people in is good _ anything to get more people in is good for— anything to get more people in is good for us. we have noticed a big change _ good for us. we have noticed a big change in — good for us. we have noticed a big change in the last few years, i guess— change in the last few years, i guess people's routines have changed and the _ guess people's routines have changed and the world has changed a lot. getting _ and the world has changed a lot. getting more people in the pubs fingers _ getting more people in the pubs fingers crossed we'll help us out. what _ fingers crossed we'll help us out. what is _ fingers crossed we'll help us out. what is it. — fingers crossed we'll help us out. what is it, not wfh, d f h, drink from— what is it, not wfh, d f h, drink from home, _ what is it, not wfh, d f h, drink from home, what has been going on? i guess— from home, what has been going on? i guess people's routines, they got used _ guess people's routines, they got used to— guess people's routines, they got used to drinking at home. definitely a lot of— used to drinking at home. definitely a lot of our— used to drinking at home. definitely a lot of our normal locals were used to get— a lot of our normal locals were used to get in— a lot of our normal locals were used to get in day— a lot of our normal locals were used to get in day to day are not coming through— to get in day to day are not coming through the doors. money must play a bil through the doors. money must play a big part _ through the doors. money must play a big part in _ through the doors. money must play a big part in it — through the doors. money must play a big part in it. they routines have changed. — big part in it. they routines have changed, so fingers crossed, supermarkets have had it good for as lon- supermarkets have had it good for as long as _ supermarkets have had it good for as long as they have had it and they can charge — long as they have had it and they can charge what they want but we have _ can charge what they want but we have to _ can charge what they want but we have to set our prices to cover our costs _ have to set our prices to cover our costs and — have to set our prices to cover our costs. and we have to hope they will come _ costs. and we have to hope they will come back— costs. and we have to hope they will come back through the doors and stay with us _ come back through the doors and stay with us. :, ~' , :, come back through the doors and stay with us. :, ,, , :, ., , with us. you kept going, was it touch and _ with us. you kept going, was it touch and go? _ with us. you kept going, was it touch and go? at _ with us. you kept going, was it touch and go? at one - with us. you kept going, was it touch and go? at one point, i touch and go? at one point, definitely yes. figs touch and go? at one point, definitely yes.— touch and go? at one point, definitely yes. touch and go? at one point, definitel es. a , definitely yes. as soon as the doors closed april. _ definitely yes. as soon as the doors closed april, march, _ definitely yes. as soon as the doors closed april, march, we _ definitely yes. as soon as the doors closed april, march, we thought i definitely yes. as soon as the doors closed april, march, we thought it i closed april, march, we thought it would _ closed april, march, we thought it would just— closed april, march, we thought it would just be for a few weeks. but obviously— would just be for a few weeks. but obviously as time went on, i guess the first— obviously as time went on, i guess the first lockdown for us was the best thing — the first lockdown for us was the best thing that ever happened as a business. — best thing that ever happened as a business. i— best thing that ever happened as a business, i know it sounds crazy to say. _ business, i know it sounds crazy to say, but _ business, i know it sounds crazy to say, but we — business, i know it sounds crazy to say, but we rethought what we were doing _ say, but we rethought what we were doing and _ say, but we rethought what we were doing and change things for when we reopened _ doing and change things for when we reopened. but for a lot of people the reopened never came and they had to close _ the reopened never came and they had to close but— the reopened never came and they had to close. but for us as a business it made _ to close. but for us as a business it made it — to close. but for us as a business it made it stronger, if i'm honest. but it— it made it stronger, if i'm honest. but it wasn't — it made it stronger, if i'm honest. but it wasn'tjust by luck, it was by changing what we do and completely changing what we do and our business thoughts and come out stronger~ _ our business thoughts and come out stron . er. . our business thoughts and come out stronner. , , :, ., ., stronger. interesting. so you had a nro ner stronger. interesting. so you had a proper rethink— stronger. interesting. so you had a proper rethink when _ stronger. interesting. so you had a proper rethink when you _ stronger. interesting. so you had a proper rethink when you had i stronger. interesting. so you had a proper rethink when you had the i proper rethink when you had the opportunity tojust get proper rethink when you had the opportunity to just get your head together. during lockdown. what did you change? iterate together. during lockdown. what did ou chance? ~ together. during lockdown. what did you change?— together. during lockdown. what did ou chance? ,.,,.,_ :: :: you change? we were probably 50-50 drinks to restaurant, _ you change? we were probably 50-50 drinks to restaurant, eating _ you change? we were probably 50-50 drinks to restaurant, eating in. - you change? we were probably 50-50 drinks to restaurant, eating in. we i drinks to restaurant, eating in. we changed _ drinks to restaurant, eating in. we changed that probably 280—20, so 20% now we _ changed that probably 280—20, so 20% now we rely _ changed that probably 280—20, so 20% now we rely on the drink, we made a new bar— now we rely on the drink, we made a new bar outside. obviously the rules with one _ new bar outside. obviously the rules with one household and whatever they were now. _ with one household and whatever they were now, one pertable, with one household and whatever they were now, one per table, they were not viable. — were now, one per table, they were not viable, we were better off closing — not viable, we were better off closing there and then as soon as they started making those rules so we changed and made a bar outside, redesigned _ we changed and made a bar outside, redesigned the restaurant so we could _ redesigned the restaurant so we could get— redesigned the restaurant so we could get more covers in for food without _ could get more covers in for food without losing our drinkers. so we had a _ without losing our drinkers. so we had a bit _ without losing our drinkers. so we had a bit of— without losing our drinkers. so we had a bit of a reshuffle and it definitely made us better. obviously for us _ definitely made us better. obviously for us personally where we are in norfolk— for us personally where we are in norfolk we — for us personally where we are in norfolk we are in the middle of nowhere — norfolk we are in the middle of nowhere so we only have our village locals, _ nowhere so we only have our village locals, in _ nowhere so we only have our village locals, in flag bearer, we are talking — locals, in flag bearer, we are talking about 1000 people maximum, who come _ talking about 1000 people maximum, who come in daily. but from 30 or 40 people _ who come in daily. but from 30 or 40 people coming in like clockwork, probably— people coming in like clockwork, probably down to 15, when we all came _ probably down to 15, when we all came back— probably down to 15, when we all came back and reopened as normal. —— fleggburgh _ came back and reopened as normal. —— fleggburgh. we have got the numbers back up— fleggburgh. we have got the numbers back up slowly but nowhere near where _ back up slowly but nowhere near where we — back up slowly but nowhere near where we were before. so fingers crossed _ where we were before. so fingers crossed with these new rules and price _ crossed with these new rules and price decreases, and with supermarket prices going up that will hopefully bring more people through— will hopefully bring more people through the door. that will hopefully bring more people through the door.— will hopefully bring more people through the door. that is the kings arms. let through the door. that is the kings arms- let me _ through the door. that is the kings arms. let me ask _ through the door. that is the kings arms. let me ask you _ through the door. that is the kings arms. let me ask you one - through the door. that is the kings arms. let me ask you one more. . through the door. that is the kings arms. let me ask you one more. i | arms. let me ask you one more. i think this is so important for our discussion, the effect on pubs. let's hear it for our pubs. drinks with alcohol by volume abv below 3.5% will be taxed at a lower rate. i never understand the percentages. i never understand the percentages. ijust i never understand the percentages. i just put it i never understand the percentages. ijust put it in a glass. would you get a decent real ale for that was mike most of our drinkers that drink, i can't tell you how many points a day they drink because i will probably get in trouble but the ones who come in and have a good few pints a day, these sit around the 3% - a% pints a day, these sit around the 3% — 4% mark so they are more session beers. 50 - 4% mark so they are more session beers. :,, :, , , ,:, - 4% mark so they are more session beers. :, _ ., ., beers. so obviously you can have a few more of _ beers. so obviously you can have a few more of them _ beers. so obviously you can have a few more of them and _ beers. so obviously you can have a few more of them and without i beers. so obviously you can have a i few more of them and without feeling it, few more of them and without feeling it. one _ few more of them and without feeling it. one and _ few more of them and without feeling it. one and a — few more of them and without feeling it, one and a half. the}f few more of them and without feeling it, one and a half.— it, one and a half. they slip down. will ou it, one and a half. they slip down. will you be — it, one and a half. they slip down. will you be passing _ it, one and a half. they slip down. will you be passing on _ it, one and a half. they slip down. will you be passing on the - it, one and a half. they slip down. | will you be passing on the saving? definitely. we have also noticed the last couple of months the normal beer through the draft, they have lowered _ beer through the draft, they have lowered the abv to fit in with this new rule — lowered the abv to fit in with this new rule. one of the ciders has changed — new rule. one of the ciders has changed abv, a few of the other bears— changed abv, a few of the other bears have lowered the percentage to fit into _ bears have lowered the percentage to fit into this _ bears have lowered the percentage to fit into this market will help —— a few of— fit into this market will help —— a few of the — fit into this market will help —— a few of the other beers. they will be a lot more — few of the other beers. they will be a lot more beers people used to drink— a lot more beers people used to drink before having lowered the abv to fit into _ drink before having lowered the abv to fit into this market. | rdrill drink before having lowered the abv to fit into this market.— to fit into this market. i will come to fit into this market. i will come to mark and _ to fit into this market. i will come to mark and l _ to fit into this market. i will come to mark and i will _ to fit into this market. i will come to mark and i will come _ to fit into this market. i will come to mark and i will come to - to fit into this market. i will come| to mark and i will come to richard piper, chief executive of alcohol change uk, a very important desk. but let's get a couple of calls, adam and lindsay. good morning. adam, what is your reaction to these tax changes?— adam, what is your reaction to these tax changes? hello, nikki. iwelcome the change- — tax changes? hello, nikki. iwelcome the change- l — tax changes? hello, nikki. iwelcome the change. ithink— tax changes? hello, nikki. iwelcome the change. i think pubs _ tax changes? hello, nikki. iwelcome the change. i think pubs have - tax changes? hello, nikki. iwelcome the change. i think pubs have had i the change. i think pubs have had quite a time because of lockdown and energy bills. a lot of pubs near me have closed and have really been struggling. i think that anything that supports them is a good thing and also i'd like to add that obviously alcoholism is quite a big problem that people suffer with so i think that if you are going to drink it's a lot better to do it in a pub or in a place where there is other people to look out for you whether thatis people to look out for you whether that is pub staff or other customers. if you do get destroyed and you are struggling there is someone there to look out for you, call you an ambulance, send you home or whatever. call you an ambulance, send you home or whatever-— or whatever. rather than the solitary seeker _ or whatever. rather than the solitary seeker drinker. - or whatever. rather than the i solitary seeker drinker. lindsay or whatever. rather than the - solitary seeker drinker. lindsay in durham, your experience? hi. hi. my mother died — durham, your experience? hi. hi. my mother died aged _ durham, your experience? hi. hi. my mother died aged 55 _ durham, your experience? hi. hi. my mother died aged 55 after _ durham, your experience? hi. hi. my mother died aged 55 after years - durham, your experience? hi. hi. my mother died aged 55 after years of. mother died aged 55 after years of alcohol_ mother died aged 55 after years of alcohol abuse and she had access to very cheap _ alcohol abuse and she had access to very cheap alcohol both in pubs and in shops _ very cheap alcohol both in pubs and in shops. this is in 2019. and obviously— in shops. this is in 2019. and obviously the effect is life changing for myself and my two sisters — changing for myself and my two sisters. we had to fork out £6,000 between _ sisters. we had to fork out £6,000 between us — sisters. we had to fork out £6,000 between us for her funeral. obviously that was very expensive that we _ obviously that was very expensive that we never planned for someone who is_ that we never planned for someone who is 55 _ that we never planned for someone who is 55 i— that we never planned for someone who is 55. ijust despise it. it is the only— who is 55. ijust despise it. it is the only addiction that people actively— the only addiction that people actively encourage. your friends say. _ actively encourage. your friends say, do — actively encourage. your friends say. do you _ actively encourage. your friends say, do you want to have a drink? why— say, do you want to have a drink? why aren't — say, do you want to have a drink? why aren't you drinking? that is really— why aren't you drinking? that is really boring, that kind of thing, and i_ really boring, that kind of thing, and i get — really boring, that kind of thing, and i get that a lot, and that's not because _ and i get that a lot, and that's not because of— and i get that a lot, and that's not because of my mother dying, it's because — because of my mother dying, it's because i'm lucky enough to be able to take _ because i'm lucky enough to be able to take or— because i'm lucky enough to be able to take or leave alcohol and i definitely don't want pubs to be negatively affected but i also think that it _ negatively affected but i also think that it is _ negatively affected but i also think that it is time for us to take ownership of how bad the uk's drink problem _ ownership of how bad the uk's drink problem is _ ownership of how bad the uk's drink problem is and to actually take a step further and make alcohol tax higher— step further and make alcohol tax higher because it shouldn't be something you can afford to get completely out of control on. it should — completely out of control on. it should he — completely out of control on. it should be completely controlled and that you _ should be completely controlled and that you should have to take account personally _ that you should have to take account personally for that because the toll on the _ personally for that because the toll on the nhs and the overall mental health— on the nhs and the overall mental health of— on the nhs and the overall mental health of people. for example, i've worked _ health of people. for example, i've worked with people who haven't turned _ worked with people who haven't turned into work and that has affected — turned into work and that has affected the team and people who have an _ affected the team and people who have an alcohol problem, it is a massive — have an alcohol problem, it is a massive spiral of things rolling on and i_ massive spiral of things rolling on and i don't — massive spiral of things rolling on and i don't think it is actively talked — and i don't think it is actively talked about enough and people think you are _ talked about enough and people think you are sad because you don't drink as much— you are sad because you don't drink as much alcohol as they do. it is really— as much alcohol as they do. it is really had — as much alcohol as they do. it is really bad. do as much alcohol as they do. it is really bad-— as much alcohol as they do. it is reall bad. ., ., ., ,, really bad. do you ever have a glass of wine or anything _ really bad. do you ever have a glass of wine or anything like _ really bad. do you ever have a glass of wine or anything like that? - really bad. do you ever have a glass of wine or anything like that? i - really bad. do you ever have a glass of wine or anything like that? i do. | of wine or anything like that? i do. i'm lucky enough _ of wine or anything like that? i do. i'm lucky enough to _ of wine or anything like that? i do. i'm lucky enough to be _ of wine or anything like that? i do. i'm lucky enough to be able to take it or leave — i'm lucky enough to be able to take it or leave it — i'm lucky enough to be able to take it or leave it. i have two weddings coming _ it or leave it. i have two weddings coming up. — it or leave it. i have two weddings coming up. i_ it or leave it. i have two weddings coming up, i can take it or leave it there. _ coming up, i can take it or leave it there. i'ni— coming up, i can take it or leave it there, i'm happy to be the designated driver and get home safely— designated driver and get home safely and i know everyone is good so that's _ safely and i know everyone is good so that's ok. safely and i know everyone is good so that's 0k-_ so that's ok. you are right about the way we _ so that's ok. you are right about the way we talk _ so that's ok. you are right about the way we talk about _ so that's ok. you are right about the way we talk about in - so that's ok. you are right about the way we talk about in a - so that's ok. you are right about| the way we talk about in a alcohol kind of brazen way. i felt guilty at the top saying i drink, i don't drink a lot but i do like a drink. we do it with rather too much abandon without thinking about the problems it creates, problems for individuals, problems for society. sometimes you do walk down the high streets in some of our towns and cities on a friday night and think my god, this is like the wild west as you step over the next pile of something unpleasant, or pile of people as well. it cost the nhs 3.5 billion a year at least, 3.5 billion, staggering amount. it's not just the drunken admissions to a&e, of course. it is violent assaults, all sorts of alcohol—related crimes as well. it is so sad your mother, 55 years old, lindsay. if alcohol had been more expensive, would it have helped her? i had been more expensive, would it have helped her?— have helped her? i think it would have helped her? i think it would have made _ have helped her? i think it would have made it _ have helped her? i think it would have made it harder— have helped her? i think it would have made it harder for - have helped her? i think it would have made it harder for her- have helped her? i think it would have made it harder for her to i have helped her? i think it would i have made it harder for her to have and to— have made it harder for her to have and to have — have made it harder for her to have and to have in such large quantities. i've not mentioned the brands _ quantities. i've not mentioned the brands because i don't want to give free advertising but it was available in a uk supermarket, £3 for two _ available in a uk supermarket, £3 for two litres and it is 10% at the time _ for two litres and it is 10% at the time so — for two litres and it is 10% at the time so she _ for two litres and it is 10% at the time so she could buy three of those and drink— time so she could buy three of those and drink them in a decider? yes. it was cider~ _ and drink them in a decider? yes. it was cider. ,., ., . ., was cider. the sort of cider that has never _ was cider. the sort of cider that has never seen _ was cider. the sort of cider that has never seen an _ was cider. the sort of cider that has never seen an apple - was cider. the sort of cider that has never seen an apple in - was cider. the sort of cider that has never seen an apple in its l was cider. the sort of cider that i has never seen an apple in its life, i know the kind of thing. {iii has never seen an apple in its life, i know the kind of thing. of course, it is 'ust i know the kind of thing. of course, it isjust pure _ i know the kind of thing. of course, it isjust pure alcohol. _ i know the kind of thing. of course, it isjust pure alcohol. but - i know the kind of thing. of course, it isjust pure alcohol. but we - i know the kind of thing. of course, it isjust pure alcohol. but we have | it isjust pure alcohol. but we have -ot it isjust pure alcohol. but we have got to _ it isjust pure alcohol. but we have got to the — it isjust pure alcohol. but we have got to the point where myself and my sisters— got to the point where myself and my sisters would tip a third of it out on top _ sisters would tip a third of it out on top it— sisters would tip a third of it out on top it up— sisters would tip a third of it out on top it up with water and she wouldn't — on top it up with water and she wouldn't notice she was so drunk. it wouldn't notice she was so drunk. [ii is a wouldn't notice she was so drunk. is a tale i wouldn't notice she was so drunk. it is a tale i know from friends and friends' parents. it is so sad. richard piper, do you want to come in, chief executive of alcohol change uk. you have heard lindsay's story and stories like it a hell of a lot but most people enjoy a drink and feel that it is too expensive and feel that it is too expensive and this is going to be great for the pubs because it is redressing the pubs because it is redressing the balance. what you think about the balance. what you think about the basic outline of what the government are doing? overall we rive the government are doing? overall we give the government _ government are doing? overall we give the government a _ government are doing? overall we give the government a 3+ - government are doing? overall we give the government a 3+ on - government are doing? overall we give the government a 3+ on this. j government are doing? overall we | give the government a 3+ on this. i give the government a b+ on this. i think— give the government a b+ on this. i think it _ give the government a b+ on this. i think it is _ give the government a b+ on this. i think it is a — give the government a b+ on this. i think it is a good _ give the government a b+ on this. i think it is a good overall— give the government a b+ on this. i think it is a good overall result - give the government a b+ on this. i think it is a good overall result in i think it is a good overall result in the sense — think it is a good overall result in the sense that _ think it is a good overall result in the sense that they— think it is a good overall result in the sense that they are - think it is a good overall result inl the sense that they are equalising alcohol— the sense that they are equalising alcohol duty. _ the sense that they are equalising alcohol duty. it— the sense that they are equalising alcohol duty, it is— the sense that they are equalising alcohol duty, it is a _ the sense that they are equalising alcohol duty, it is a lot _ the sense that they are equalising alcohol duty, it is a lot more - alcohol duty, it is a lot more sensible. _ alcohol duty, it is a lot more sensible. a _ alcohol duty, it is a lot more sensible, a lot _ alcohol duty, it is a lot more sensible, a lot more - alcohol duty, it is a lot more sensible, a lot more rational alcohol duty, it is a lot more - sensible, a lot more rational and it is based _ sensible, a lot more rational and it is based on — sensible, a lot more rational and it is based on the _ sensible, a lot more rational and it is based on the strength— sensible, a lot more rational and it is based on the strength of- sensible, a lot more rational and it is based on the strength of the - is based on the strength of the drink — is based on the strength of the drink we _ is based on the strength of the drink. we have _ is based on the strength of the drink. we have just _ is based on the strength of the drink. we have just heard - is based on the strength of thej drink. we have just heard from lindsay— drink. we have just heard from lindsay the _ drink. we have just heard from lindsay the strength _ drink. we have just heard from lindsay the strength of- drink. we have just heard from lindsay the strength of drinks. lindsay the strength of drinks reatiy — lindsay the strength of drinks really matters. _ lindsay the strength of drinks really matters. the _ lindsay the strength of drinks really matters. the second i lindsay the strength of drinks i really matters. the second thing lindsay the strength of drinks - really matters. the second thing the government— really matters. the second thing the government is— really matters. the second thing the government is doing _ really matters. the second thing the government is doing is _ really matters. the second thing the government is doing is increasing i government is doing is increasing alcohol— government is doing is increasing alcohol duty _ government is doing is increasing alcohol duty in _ government is doing is increasing alcohol duty in line _ government is doing is increasing alcohol duty in line with - government is doing is increasing alcohol duty in line with inflationl alcohol duty in line with inflation so it is— alcohol duty in line with inflation so it is a — alcohol duty in line with inflation so it is a real— alcohol duty in line with inflation so it is a real terms _ alcohol duty in line with inflation so it is a real terms freeze. it. alcohol duty in line with inflation so it is a real terms freeze. it isi so it is a real terms freeze. it is what _ so it is a real terms freeze. it is what we — so it is a real terms freeze. it is what we should _ so it is a real terms freeze. it is what we should always - so it is a real terms freeze. it is what we should always be - so it is a real terms freeze. it is. what we should always be having, so it is a real terms freeze. it is- what we should always be having, it is what _ what we should always be having, it is what historically _ what we should always be having, it is what historically we _ what we should always be having, it is what historically we have - what we should always be having, it is what historically we have had i what we should always be having, it is what historically we have had butl is what historically we have had but in recent— is what historically we have had but in recent years _ is what historically we have had but in recent years the _ is what historically we have had but in recent years the government i is what historically we have had but in recent years the government has been _ in recent years the government has been cutting — in recent years the government has been cutting alcohol— in recent years the government has been cutting alcohol duty, - in recent years the government has been cutting alcohol duty, and i in recent years the government has been cutting alcohol duty, and it's. been cutting alcohol duty, and it's no surprise — been cutting alcohol duty, and it's no surprise that _ been cutting alcohol duty, and it's no surprise that alcohol _ been cutting alcohol duty, and it's no surprise that alcohol deaths i been cutting alcohol duty, and it's. no surprise that alcohol deaths have been increasing _ no surprise that alcohol deaths have been increasing so— no surprise that alcohol deaths have been increasing so it _ no surprise that alcohol deaths have been increasing so it is _ no surprise that alcohol deaths have been increasing so it is good - no surprise that alcohol deaths have been increasing so it is good that. been increasing so it is good that that is— been increasing so it is good that that is happening. _ been increasing so it is good that that is happening. one _ been increasing so it is good that that is happening. one of- been increasing so it is good that that is happening. one of the i that is happening. one of the things. — that is happening. one of the things. this _ that is happening. one of the things, this is _ that is happening. one of the things, this is really- that is happening. one of the things, this is really relevant| that is happening. one of the . things, this is really relevant to what _ things, this is really relevant to what lindsay _ things, this is really relevant to what lindsay was _ things, this is really relevant to what lindsay was saying, - things, this is really relevant to what lindsay was saying, one l things, this is really relevant to| what lindsay was saying, one of things, this is really relevant to- what lindsay was saying, one of the things— what lindsay was saying, one of the things the _ what lindsay was saying, one of the things the government _ what lindsay was saying, one of the things the government has - what lindsay was saying, one of the things the government has not i what lindsay was saying, one of the | things the government has not done in this— things the government has not done in this duty— things the government has not done in this duty review— things the government has not done in this duty review is _ things the government has not done in this duty review is really- in this duty review is really attacked _ in this duty review is really attacked the _ in this duty review is really attacked the problem i in this duty review is really attacked the problem of. in this duty review is really- attacked the problem of cider. cider is still— attacked the problem of cider. cider is still being — attacked the problem of cider. cider is still being treated _ attacked the problem of cider. cider is still being treated exceptionally. is still being treated exceptionally in this— is still being treated exceptionally in this duty— is still being treated exceptionally in this duty system _ is still being treated exceptionally in this duty system will _ is still being treated exceptionally in this duty system will stop - is still being treated exceptionallyj in this duty system will stop there is absolutely — in this duty system will stop there is absolutely no _ in this duty system will stop there is absolutely no justification - in this duty system will stop there is absolutely no justification for. is absolutely no justification for that in— is absolutely no justification for that in our— is absolutely no justification for that in our view. _ is absolutely no 'ustification for that in our view.— is absolutely no 'ustification for that in our view. there is cider and cider. that in our view. there is cider and cider- what _ that in our view. there is cider and cider. what do _ that in our view. there is cider and cider. what do you _ that in our view. there is cider and cider. what do you mean? - that in our view. there is cider and cider. what do you mean? the i that in our view. there is cider and l cider. what do you mean? the cider lindsay is talking about that is kind of quasi cider, or a nice glass of scrumpy, or a kind of quasi cider, or a nice glass of scrumpy, ora nice... kind of quasi cider, or a nice glass of scrumpy, or a nice. . ._ kind of quasi cider, or a nice glass of scrumpy, or a nice... whether it has apples — of scrumpy, or a nice... whether it has apples or _ of scrumpy, or a nice... whether it has apples or not _ of scrumpy, or a nice... whether it has apples or not it _ of scrumpy, or a nice... whether it has apples or not it is _ of scrumpy, or a nice... whether it has apples or not it is the - of scrumpy, or a nice... whether it has apples or not it is the amountl has apples or not it is the amount of alcohol that causes the harm. we do like to have these ideas of, there is a lovely rural version and a more industrial version. they are both as harmful as each other if they contain the same amount of alcohol. what the government has not done, and we have asked for them to address this, is they haven't dealt with the fact that cider is still being artificially taxed cheaper than an equivalent strength beer or an equivalent strength wine. that is an equivalent strength wine. that is an anomaly that we do need to sort it. the fact is, as lindsay and your previous caller said, the cheaper alcohol is the more people drink and the more people die. it isn't actually that complex and equation. and we don't need to put up with it, we shouldn't have to put up with it. is that absolutely verifiable, valid, scientifically backed equation?— valid, scientifically backed equation?- let - valid, scientifically backed equation?- let me i valid, scientifically backed equation? yes. let me bring in. some interestin: equation? yes let me bring in. some interesting points of the. let me bring in the chief executive of the wine and spirit trade association, miles beale committed address the cider issue and some other points raised there. welcome, miles. hi. raised there. welcome, miles. hi, and hello to _ raised there. welcome, miles. hi, and hello to everyone else. we drink 15% less _ and hello to everyone else. we drink 15% less now — and hello to everyone else. we drink i5% less now than _ and hello to everyone else. we drink i5% less now than we _ and hello to everyone else. we drink i5% less now than we did _ and hello to everyone else. we drink i5% less now than we did 15 - and hello to everyone else. we drink i5% less now than we did 15 years i i5% less now than we did 15 years a-o i5% less now than we did 15 years ago so _ 15% less now than we did 15 years ago so that— 15% less now than we did 15 years ago so that is— i5% less now than we did 15 years ago so that is a _ i5% less now than we did 15 years ago so that is a good _ i5% less now than we did 15 years ago so that is a good direction. i5% less now than we did 15 years ago so that is a good direction of| ago so that is a good direction of travel~ _ ago so that is a good direction of travel~ i— ago so that is a good direction of travel. i think— ago so that is a good direction of travel. i think richard _ ago so that is a good direction of travel. i think richard and - ago so that is a good direction of travel. i think richard and i- ago so that is a good direction ofl travel. i think richard and i would agree _ travel. i think richard and i would agree on— travel. i think richard and i would agree on that _ travel. i think richard and i would agree on that. what _ travel. i think richard and i would agree on that. what we _ travel. i think richard and i would i agree on that. what we particularly object _ agree on that. what we particularly object to— agree on that. what we particularly object to is— agree on that. what we particularly object to is the _ agree on that. what we particularly object to is the government - agree on that. what we particularly object to is the government pullingj object to is the government pulling the wool— object to is the government pulling the wool over — object to is the government pulling the wool over consumers' - object to is the government pulling the wool over consumers' eyes. i object to is the government pulling| the wool over consumers' eyes. we are having — the wool over consumers' eyes. we are having today— the wool over consumers' eyes. we are having today the _ the wool over consumers' eyes. we are having today the biggest - are having today the biggest increase _ are having today the biggest increase in— are having today the biggest increase in alcohol- are having today the biggest increase in alcohol duty- are having today the biggest increase in alcohol duty in i are having today the biggest i increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years — increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years at — increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years at a _ increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years at a time _ increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years at a time of— increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years at a time of the - increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years at a time of the cost i increase in alcohol duty in almost 50 years at a time of the cost of. 50 years at a time of the cost of living _ 50 years at a time of the cost of living crisis _ 50 years at a time of the cost of living crisis. so _ 50 years at a time of the cost of living crisis. so you _ 50 years at a time of the cost of living crisis. so you have - 50 years at a time of the cost of living crisis. so you have an- living crisis. so you have an average _ living crisis. so you have an average strength— living crisis. so you have an average strength bottle i living crisis. so you have an average strength bottle of. living crisis. so you have an- average strength bottle of wine going _ average strength bottle of wine going up— average strength bottle of wine going up by— average strength bottle of wine going up by mp, _ average strength bottle of wine going up by mp, that's- average strength bottle of wine going up by mp, that's 53p i average strength bottle of wine going up by mp, that's 53p if. average strength bottle of wine . going up by mp, that's 53p if you add vat~ — going up by mp, that's 53p if you add vat~ 20% _ going up by mp, that's 53p if you add vat. 20% increase _ going up by mp, that's 53p if you add vat. 20% increase in- going up by mp, that's 53p if you | add vat. 20% increase in one—hit. for spirits — add vat. 20% increase in one—hit. for spirits it — add vat. 20% increase in one—hit. for spirits it is— add vat. 20% increase in one—hit. for spirits it is up— add vat. 20% increase in one—hit. for spirits it is up 10%, _ add vat. 20% increase in one—hit. for spirits it is up 10%, those i add vat. 20% increase in one—hit. for spirits it is up 10%, those are i for spirits it is up 10%, those are the two _ for spirits it is up 10%, those are the two i — for spirits it is up 10%, those are the two i represent. _ for spirits it is up 10%, those are the two i represent. in _ for spirits it is up 10%, those are the two i represent. in a - for spirits it is up 10%, those are the two i represent. in a cost i for spirits it is up 10%, those are the two i represent. in a cost of. the two i represent. in a cost of living _ the two i represent. in a cost of living crisis— the two i represent. in a cost of living crisis with _ the two i represent. in a cost of living crisis with lots _ the two i represent. in a cost of living crisis with lots of - the two i represent. in a cost of living crisis with lots of other. living crisis with lots of other costs — living crisis with lots of other costs going _ living crisis with lots of other costs going on _ living crisis with lots of other costs going on as _ living crisis with lots of other costs going on as well- living crisis with lots of other costs going on as well it - living crisis with lots of other costs going on as well it is l living crisis with lots of other. costs going on as well it is very bad news — costs going on as well it is very bad news for— costs going on as well it is very bad news for consumers - costs going on as well it is very bad news for consumers and i costs going on as well it is very bad news for consumers and it| costs going on as well it is very. bad news for consumers and it is pretty— bad news for consumers and it is pretty poor— bad news for consumers and it is pretty poor for _ bad news for consumers and it is pretty poor for business, - bad news for consumers and it is pretty poor for business, too. i bad news for consumers and it is . pretty poor for business, too. let's not forget — pretty poor for business, too. let's not forget that _ pretty poor for business, too. let's not forget that our— pretty poor for business, too. let's not forget that our businesses - not forget that our businesses promote — not forget that our businesses promote growth _ not forget that our businesses promote growth in _ not forget that our businesses promote growth in the - not forget that our businesses i promote growth in the economy not forget that our businesses - promote growth in the economy and are worth _ promote growth in the economy and are worth about _ promote growth in the economy and are worth about £50 _ promote growth in the economy and are worth about £50 billion - promote growth in the economy and are worth about £50 billion a - promote growth in the economy and are worth about £50 billion a year. i are worth about £50 billion a year. so the _ are worth about £50 billion a year. so the positive _ are worth about £50 billion a year. so the positive benefit _ are worth about £50 billion a year. so the positive benefit of- are worth about £50 billion a year. so the positive benefit of the - so the positive benefit of the drinks — so the positive benefit of the drinks industry— so the positive benefit of the drinks industry far— so the positive benefit of the drinks industry far outweighsi drinks industry far outweighs anything _ drinks industry far outweighs anything else _ drinks industry far outweighs anything else. but _ drinks industry far outweighs anything else. but the - drinks industry far outweighs anything else. but the maini drinks industry far outweighs - anything else. but the main changes for the _ anything else. but the main changes for the day— anything else. but the main changes for the day are — anything else. but the main changes for the day are why _ anything else. but the main changes for the day are why is _ anything else. but the main changes for the day are why is the _ for the day are why is the government— for the day are why is the government doing - for the day are why is the - government doing something that taxes _ government doing something that taxes consumers _ government doing something that taxes consumers at _ government doing something that taxes consumers at a _ government doing something that taxes consumers at a time - government doing something that taxes consumers at a time of - government doing something that taxes consumers at a time of the i taxes consumers at a time of the cost of— taxes consumers at a time of the cost of living _ taxes consumers at a time of the cost of living crisis _ taxes consumers at a time of the cost of living crisis and _ taxes consumers at a time of the cost of living crisis and feels - taxes consumers at a time of the cost of living crisis and feels thei cost of living crisis and feels the inflation — cost of living crisis and feels the inflation that— cost of living crisis and feels the inflation that they _ cost of living crisis and feels the inflation that they say _ cost of living crisis and feels the inflation that they say is - cost of living crisis and feels the inflation that they say is their. inflation that they say is their number— inflation that they say is their number one _ inflation that they say is their number one priority- inflation that they say is their number one priority to - inflation that they say is their number one priority to keep. inflation that they say is their- number one priority to keep under controi~ _ number one priority to keep under control. . ., number one priority to keep under control. . . . . . ~ control. richard, attacking consumers. _ control. richard, attacking consumers. firstly - control. richard, attacking consumers. firstly i - control. richard, attacking consumers. firstly i thinkl control. richard, attacking| consumers. firstly i think it control. richard, attacking i consumers. firstly i think it is really important _ consumers. firstly i think it is really important to _ consumers. firstly i think it is really important to be - consumers. firstly i think it is really important to be clear i consumers. firstly i think it is i really important to be clear what alcohol duty is. it is not a tax on consumers. it is not even a tax on retailers, it is a tax on producers and producers can choose to pass it on or not pass it on. yes, the current increase in duty rate is a large one but that's because inflation is large and historically alcohol duty has always amassed inflation. it is only recently in recent years the government has moved away from that and has actually cut duties. duty has been cut in nine of the last ten years. that's not entirely true, is it? this— that's not entirely true, is it? this year— that's not entirely true, is it? this year it _ that's not entirely true, is it? this year it has _ that's not entirely true, is it? this year it has matched - that's not entirely true, is it? - this year it has matched inflation. that is what has happened, we have matched inflation. alcohol producers, many of whom are making millions and millions of pounds in profit, are contributing fairly to the economy. all that is being asked by the government is for the producers to contribute in line with inflation. this is not an increase, it is in line with inflation. finally, this point about cost of living. alcohol is not an essential household good. it is a luxury item. we are not talking about pasta, bread, milk, we are talking about a substance that anybody can choose not to drink. so the idea that it is an essential in our basket of goods is, i'm afraid, nonsense. people can take it or leave it and should be able to take it or leave it, it isn't something you have to drink. his cake and essential? i isn't something you have to drink. his cake and essential?— his cake and essential? i wouldn't sa so, his cake and essential? i wouldn't say so. n0- _ his cake and essential? i wouldn't say so, no. would _ his cake and essential? i wouldn't say so, no. would you _ his cake and essential? i wouldn't say so, no. would you say - his cake and essential? i wouldn't say so, no. would you say so? - his cake and essential? i wouldn't| say so, no. would you say so? i'm 'ust say so, no. would you say so? i'm just interested in what are the essentials and what are not the essentials and what are not the essentials and what are not the essentials and what are the little treats that we need and which are not the treats and which are the necessities. you wanted to come back, miles? necessities. you wanted to come back. miles?— necessities. you wanted to come back, miles? , . ,, , ., ,, back, miles? yes, thank you. i think “0 is an back, miles? yes, thank you. i think joy is an essential. _ back, miles? yes, thank you. i think joy is an essential. i _ back, miles? yes, thank you. i think joy is an essential. i think _ back, miles? yes, thank you. i think joy is an essential. i think some - joy is an essential. i think some pieasure — joy is an essential. i think some pleasure in— joy is an essential. i think some pleasure in life _ joy is an essential. i think some pleasure in life makes - joy is an essential. i think some pleasure in life makes it- joy is an essential. i think some pleasure in life makes it worth. pleasure in life makes it worth living — pleasure in life makes it worth living the _ pleasure in life makes it worth living. the vast _ pleasure in life makes it worth living. the vast majority - pleasure in life makes it worth living. the vast majority of - living. the vast majority of consumers _ living. the vast majority of consumers in _ living. the vast majority of consumers in the - living. the vast majority of consumers in the uk - living. the vast majority of consumers in the uk drink| living. the vast majority of - consumers in the uk drink very reasonably. _ consumers in the uk drink very reasonably, and _ consumers in the uk drink very reasonably, and we _ consumers in the uk drink very reasonably, and we are - consumers in the uk drink very reasonably, and we are on- consumers in the uk drink very| reasonably, and we are on their side _ reasonably, and we are on their side what— reasonably, and we are on their side what i_ reasonably, and we are on their side. what i would _ reasonably, and we are on their side. what i would say- reasonably, and we are on their side. what i would say to - reasonably, and we are on their. side. what i would say to richard reasonably, and we are on their- side. what i would say to richard is what _ side. what i would say to richard is what we _ side. what i would say to richard is what we are — side. what i would say to richard is what we are talking _ side. what i would say to richard is what we are talking about - side. what i would say to richard is what we are talking about today - side. what i would say to richard is what we are talking about today is. what we are talking about today is double _ what we are talking about today is double inflation. _ what we are talking about today is double inflation. it _ what we are talking about today is double inflation. it is _ what we are talking about today is double inflation. it is double - what we are talking about today is double inflation. it is double the l double inflation. it is double the inflation — double inflation. it is double the inflation arriving _ double inflation. it is double the inflation arriving today. - double inflation. it is double the inflation arriving today. all - double inflation. it is double the inflation arriving today. all of i double inflation. it is double the inflation arriving today. all of iti inflation arriving today. all of it will have — inflation arriving today. all of it will have to _ inflation arriving today. all of it will have to be _ inflation arriving today. all of it will have to be passed - inflation arriving today. all of it will have to be passed onto - will have to be passed onto consumers _ will have to be passed onto consumers and _ will have to be passed onto consumers and then - will have to be passed onto consumers and then some. j will have to be passed onto - consumers and then some. the government— consumers and then some. the government are _ consumers and then some. the government are intent - consumers and then some. the government are intent on - consumers and then some. the - government are intent on attempting to suggest— government are intent on attempting to suggest it — government are intent on attempting to suggest it is — government are intent on attempting to suggest it is cheaper— government are intent on attempting to suggest it is cheaper for— government are intent on attempting to suggest it is cheaper for some - to suggest it is cheaper for some drinks _ to suggest it is cheaper for some drinks and — to suggest it is cheaper for some drinks and not _ to suggest it is cheaper for some drinks and not others. _ to suggest it is cheaper for some drinks and not others. the - to suggest it is cheaper for some drinks and not others. the truthi drinks and not others. the truth this wine — drinks and not others. the truth this wine is— drinks and not others. the truth this wine is the _ drinks and not others. the truth this wine is the most _ drinks and not others. the truth this wine is the most popular. drinks and not others. the truth i this wine is the most popular drink in the _ this wine is the most popular drink in the uk _ this wine is the most popular drink in the uk now. _ this wine is the most popular drink in the uk now, 77% _ this wine is the most popular drink in the uk now, 77% of— this wine is the most popular drink in the uk now, 77% of all- this wine is the most popular drink in the uk now, 77% of all wines- this wine is the most popular drink| in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have _ in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have gone — in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have gone up— in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have gone up in— in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have gone up in price _ in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have gone up in price as— in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have gone up in price as of- in the uk now, 77% of all wines will have gone up in price as of today. i have gone up in price as of today. when _ have gone up in price as of today. when those — have gone up in price as of today. when those prices _ have gone up in price as of today. when those prices land _ have gone up in price as of today. when those prices land is - have gone up in price as of today. when those prices land is slightly| when those prices land is slightly up when those prices land is slightly up to— when those prices land is slightly up to the — when those prices land is slightly up to the producers _ when those prices land is slightly up to the producers and - when those prices land is slightly| up to the producers and retailers, that's— up to the producers and retailers, that's true — up to the producers and retailers, that's true. but _ up to the producers and retailers, that's true. but to _ up to the producers and retailers, that's true. but to put _ up to the producers and retailers, that's true. but to put it - up to the producers and retailers, that's true. but to put it in - that's true. but to put it in perspective. _ that's true. but to put it in perspective, since - that's true. but to put it in perspective, since 2010 i that's true. but to put it in - perspective, since 2010 successive tory chancellors _ perspective, since 2010 successive tory chancellors have _ perspective, since 2010 successive tory chancellors have increased i perspective, since 2010 successive l tory chancellors have increased beer duty try— tory chancellors have increased beer duty by 21%. — tory chancellors have increased beer duty by 21%. they — tory chancellors have increased beer duty by 21%, they have _ tory chancellors have increased beer duty by 21%, they have increased i duty by 21%, they have increased spirit _ duty by 21%, they have increased spirit duty— duty by 21%, they have increased spirit duty by— duty by 21%, they have increased spirit duty by 32%. _ duty by 21%, they have increased spirit duty by 32%, they- duty by 21%, they have increased spirit duty by 32%, they have i spirit duty by 32%, they have increased _ spirit duty by 32%, they have increased wine _ spirit duty by 32%, they have increased wine duty, - spirit duty by 32%, they have increased wine duty, if- spirit duty by 32%, they have increased wine duty, if you . increased wine duty, if you drinker's _ increased wine duty, if you drinker's drink— increased wine duty, if you drinker's drink of— increased wine duty, if you drinker's drink of choice, . increased wine duty, if you i drinker's drink of choice, by 58% and if— drinker's drink of choice, by 58% and if you — drinker's drink of choice, by 58% and if you happen— drinker's drink of choice, by 58% and if you happen to _ drinker's drink of choice, by 58% and if you happen to like - drinker's drink of choice, by 58% and if you happen to like port. drinker's drink of choice, by 58% and if you happen to like port iti and if you happen to like port it has been — and if you happen to like port it has been increased _ and if you happen to like port it has been increased by- and if you happen to like port it has been increased by 90%. i and if you happen to like port itl has been increased by 90%. hot has been increased by 90%. not reall . a has been increased by 90%. not really- a study _ has been increased by 90%. really. a study in the has been increased by 90%. ilrg�*r'r really. a study in the lancet has been increased by 90%. really. a study in the lancet in 2023, i've looked at some stats and gone through some links, the minimum unit pricing policy in scotland decreased alcohol deaths by 13%. an arguable stat. this is the programme where you have the opportunity to express your views on the big stories of the day. we are at the heart of the bbc. the bbc is for you. stewart is on the wirral. rachel in gainsborough. kevin, not real name, in surrey. hello, kevin. let me come to you, because a recovering alcoholic, congratulations on yourjourney. what do you think about this, kevin? i've had two major events of alcoholism. well, twice i've ended up alcoholism. well, twice i've ended up in hospital, one required a three—week stay. i think you can't tax your way out of alcoholism. i think the money that the government will earn out of this, it's not going to make any difference, the money will not get ploughed directly back into alcohol services. i think in my experience the pressures of life like a cost of living, covid, you could argue, general uncertainty, is making people worse, taxing your way out is not going to help. also, the government, i was listening to the transport minister talk on the news this morning and he is trying to make out that the tories are now for the working man. but it's just like not all people go to a pub. there are certain villages where the pub is the heart of the community and always has been full—time in memorial. but everyone's living has changed, people have busy lives, they get drunk on the train coming home from work and that is where problems start because they are stressing out about work. the only way you will deal with alcoholism is if you are going to sort of deal with what the normal working man is dealing with. there is something in some people, isn't there, kevin? my friend who is no longer with us used to say you and me, nick, we can go into a pub, we can have a point, you can walk out of that pub, i cannot leave that pub, i have to have another, i have to have another, i have to have another. �* �* , to have another, i have to have another. . �* , another. and i'm exactly the same. i can no to another. and i'm exactly the same. i can go to a — another. and i'm exactly the same. i can go to a pub _ another. and i'm exactly the same. i can go to a pub now, _ another. and i'm exactly the same. i can go to a pub now, i _ another. and i'm exactly the same. i can go to a pub now, i had _ another. and i'm exactly the same. i can go to a pub now, i had a - another. and i'm exactly the same. i can go to a pub now, i had a meal. can go to a pub now, i had a meal with my daughter the other day in guildford and not feel any sort of cravings or the urge to feel like i have to have a drink. but ijust think, again, two things, the current government have suddenly changed tack in the last two or three days, and now they suddenly have an environmental agenda where they are trying to hammer home the message that they are for the working man and will try and make your life easier and now they are saying we want pubs to be the centre of our community but we are going to tax the working man as well. so it's like no one is actually coming up with any sort of ideas about how they can stop these problems. they just want to tax their way out of them. this just want to tax their way out of them. �* , , ., just want to tax their way out of them. a just want to tax their way out of them. , . them. as you say, kevin, these are conflict problems. _ them. as you say, kevin, these are conflict problems. thank _ them. as you say, kevin, these are conflict problems. thank you. - them. as you say, kevin, these are i conflict problems. thank you. rachel in gainsborough, hi. goad conflict problems. thank you. rachel in gainsborough, hi.— in gainsborough, hi. good morning. morninu. in gainsborough, hi. good morning. morning. alcohol— in gainsborough, hi. good morning. morning. alcohol tax? _ in gainsborough, hi. good morning. morning. alcoholtax? yeah, - in gainsborough, hi. good morning. morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i- morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i su- ose morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i suppose really _ morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i suppose really i _ morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i suppose really i just _ morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i suppose really i just don't i morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i suppose really i just don't see j morning. alcoholtax? yeah, i. suppose really i just don't see it suppose really ijust don't see it affecting — suppose really ijust don't see it affecting the fact that supermarkets are quite _ affecting the fact that supermarkets are quite happy to take a loss in their— are quite happy to take a loss in their deais — are quite happy to take a loss in their deals they put on for dear. —— beer~ _ their deals they put on for dear. —— beer i_ their deals they put on for dear. —— beer~ itoid — their deals they put on for dear. —— beer. i told one of your members of staff when— beer. i told one of your members of staff when i— beer. i told one of your members of staff when i put my message in, i do the weekly— staff when i put my message in, i do the weekly shop and i can buy my husband — the weekly shop and i can buy my husband three boxes of stellar, so he gets— husband three boxes of stellar, so he gets 30 — husband three boxes of stellar, so he gets 30 cans, for £20. that actually — he gets 30 cans, for £20. that actually costs me less than it does to buy _ actually costs me less than it does to buy stillwater for the kids and p0p to buy stillwater for the kids and pop for— to buy stillwater for the kids and pop for the kids a week in the weekly— pop for the kids a week in the weekly shop. and i, like you, like a drink— weekly shop. and i, like you, like a drink at— weekly shop. and i, like you, like a drink at night and i like a glass of wine _ drink at night and i like a glass of wine and— drink at night and i like a glass of wine and i— drink at night and i like a glass of wine and i want to drink wine, not drain— wine and i want to drink wine, not drain cleaneror paint wine and i want to drink wine, not drain cleaner or paint stripper. and that bottle — drain cleaner or paint stripper. and that bottle of wine is creeping up now to _ that bottle of wine is creeping up now to £9.50, £10 for the decent bottie _ now to £9.50, £10 for the decent bottle of— now to £9.50, £10 for the decent bottle of wine. whereas, as i say, yesterday — bottle of wine. whereas, as i say, yesterday alone my daughter's birthday, nipped out to get drinks and looked at the beer and thought i'm not buying one box when i can -et i'm not buying one box when i can get three — i'm not buying one box when i can get three at— i'm not buying one box when i can get three at £20 and walked away with 30 _ get three at £20 and walked away with 30 cans of beer for £20 and two bottles _ with 30 cans of beer for £20 and two bottles of _ with 30 cans of beer for £20 and two bottles of prosecco for the same price _ bottles of prosecco for the same price. sparkling wine is going to go down _ price. sparkling wine is going to go down. . �* . price. sparkling wine is going to go down. ., �*, ., , , price. sparkling wine is going to go down. . v . , , ;;:: down. that's really interesting. 30 cans for 20 — down. that's really interesting. 30 cans for 20 quid, _ down. that's really interesting. 30 cans for 20 quid, i _ down. that's really interesting. 30 cans for 20 quid, i will _ down. that's really interesting. 30 cans for 20 quid, i will put - down. that's really interesting. 30 cans for 20 quid, i will put that i down. that's really interesting. 30 cans for 20 quid, i will put that to | cans for 20 quid, i will put that to richard in a second. stuart on the wirral, hi. what do you think about this? i wirral, hi. what do you think about this? . ., wirral, hi. what do you think about this? . . . ., . . this? i am an alcoholic, a recovering _ this? i am an alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic. i i this? i am an alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic. i do | this? i am an alcoholic, a i recovering alcoholic. i do not this? i am an alcoholic, a - recovering alcoholic. i do not drink any more — recovering alcoholic. i do not drink any more i— recovering alcoholic. i do not drink any more. i haven't _ recovering alcoholic. i do not drink any more. i haven't drank- recovering alcoholic. i do not drink any more. i haven't drank for- recovering alcoholic. i do not drink any more. i haven't drank for over| any more. i haven't drank for over two years — any more. i haven't drank for over two years-— any more. i haven't drank for over two years-_ my _ any more. i haven't drank for over two years._ my point i any more. i haven't drank for over two years._ my point is l any more. i haven't drank for over. two years._ my point is it's two years. amazing. my point is it's the ma'or two years. amazing. my point is it's the major supermarkets, _ two years. amazing. my point is it's the major supermarkets, you - two years. amazing. my point is it's the major supermarkets, you know| two years. amazing. my point is it's i the major supermarkets, you know all the major supermarkets, you know all the names. _ the major supermarkets, you know all the names. i'm — the major supermarkets, you know all the names, i'm not— the major supermarkets, you know all the names, i'm not going— the major supermarkets, you know all the names, i'm not going to _ the major supermarkets, you know all the names, i'm not going to say- the names, i'm not going to say them~ _ the names, i'm not going to say them there _ the names, i'm not going to say them. there is— the names, i'm not going to say them. there is a _ the names, i'm not going to say them. there is a local— the names, i'm not going to say them. there is a local one i the names, i'm not going to say them. there is a local one right| them. there is a local one right near— them. there is a local one right near me — them. there is a local one right near me and _ them. there is a local one right near me and i— them. there is a local one right near me and i will— them. there is a local one right near me and i will walk- them. there is a local one right near me and i will walk in i them. there is a local one right near me and i will walk in the l near me and i will walk in the wanting — near me and i will walk in the wanting a _ near me and i will walk in the wanting a loaf— near me and i will walk in the wanting a loaf of— near me and i will walk in the wanting a loaf of bread - near me and i will walk in the wanting a loaf of bread or- near me and i will walk in the i wanting a loaf of bread or bacon in the morning. — wanting a loaf of bread or bacon in the morning. you _ wanting a loaf of bread or bacon in the morning, you know, _ wanting a loaf of bread or bacon in the morning, you know, and i wanting a loaf of bread or bacon in the morning, you know, and stood there. _ the morning, you know, and stood there. as — the morning, you know, and stood there. as you _ the morning, you know, and stood there, as you walk _ the morning, you know, and stood there, as you walk in _ the morning, you know, and stood there, as you walk in there - the morning, you know, and stood there, as you walk in there is- the morning, you know, and stood there, as you walk in there is a i there, as you walk in there is a stand _ there, as you walk in there is a stand of— there, as you walk in there is a stand of smirnoff— there, as you walk in there is a stand of smirnoff on _ there, as you walk in there is a stand of smirnoff on special. there, as you walk in there is a . stand of smirnoff on special offer and this— stand of smirnoff on special offer and this really— stand of smirnoff on special offer and this really needs _ stand of smirnoff on special offer and this really needs to - stand of smirnoff on special offer and this really needs to be - and this really needs to be addressed. _ and this really needs to be addressed. you _ and this really needs to be addressed. you know, i and this really needs to be i addressed. you know, because and this really needs to be - addressed. you know, because for and this really needs to be _ addressed. you know, because for the likes of— addressed. you know, because for the likes of me _ addressed. you know, because for the likes of me it— addressed. you know, because for the likes of me it is— addressed. you know, because for the likes of me it is an _ addressed. you know, because for the likes of me it is an attraction. - well, it is not good. it is a point we need to _ well, it is not good. it is a point we need to put _ well, it is not good. it is a point we need to put two _ well, it is not good. it is a point we need to put two miles - well, it is not good. it is a point we need to put two miles and i we need to put two miles and richard, it is a point that is being made by a good few people this morning, i am scanning the text. thank you, stewart, mark, are you still with us? i thank you, stewart, mark, are you still with us?— thank you, stewart, mark, are you still with us?_ the i still with us? i am still here. the supermarket _ still with us? i am still here. the supermarket issue. _ still with us? i am still here. the supermarket issue. yes, - still with us? i am still here. the supermarket issue. yes, they i still with us? i am still here. the i supermarket issue. yes, they have not awa supermarket issue. yes, they have got away with _ supermarket issue. yes, they have got away with it — supermarket issue. yes, they have got away with it for _ supermarket issue. yes, they have got away with it for years, - supermarket issue. yes, they have got away with it for years, they i supermarket issue. yes, they have} got away with it for years, they can charge what they want. even i go in and am tempted to buy alcohol because it is so cheap. their price change will hopefully make a difference. we'll see how much of a difference. we'll see how much of a difference it makes obviously in time, but, yes, fingers crossed. some of your callers, it is too easy to get cheap alcohol. when they come to get cheap alcohol. when they come to a pub, it is not about coming for a drink, it is the experience, chatting, socialising, we have some people now who used to drink alcohol, and the comfort and eliminate because it is a pub, they have not come the drink.— eliminate because it is a pub, they have not come the drink. some people will sell their— have not come the drink. some people will sell their soul _ have not come the drink. some people will sell their soul to _ have not come the drink. some people will sell their soul to get _ have not come the drink. some people will sell their soul to get a _ have not come the drink. some people will sell their soul to get a drink. - will sell their soul to get a drink. they— will sell their soul to get a drink. they come — will sell their soul to get a drink. they come for a drink, the chat and socialise, you are not going to get that in the supermarket and sitting at home drinking it in the kitchen. stewart, did you say sell your soul? you would sell your soul to get that final drink — you would sell your soul to get that final drink. when you become an alcoholic, — final drink. when you become an alcoholic, you start drinking at home, — alcoholic, you start drinking at home, you _ alcoholic, you start drinking at home, you know, because obviously the supermarket it says there, the alcohol_ the supermarket it says there, the alcohol is — the supermarket it says there, the alcohol is a — the supermarket it says there, the alcohol is a lot cheaper in the supermarket than it is in his pub. so, supermarket than it is in his pub. so. yes, — supermarket than it is in his pub. so. yes, you _ supermarket than it is in his pub. so, yes, you are going to go there and buy— so, yes, you are going to go there and buy it — so, yes, you are going to go there and buy it and sit at home on your own, _ and buy it and sit at home on your own. which— and buy it and sit at home on your own. which i— and buy it and sit at home on your own, which i did, that's what i did,~~~ — own, which i did, that's what i did,~~~ one? _ own, which i did, that's what i did.... one?— own, which i did, that's what i did,...0ne? , , ., did,... one? why did you become an alcoholic? through _ did,... one? why did you become an alcoholic? through a divorce. - did,... one? why did you become an alcoholic? through a divorce. in the l alcoholic? through a divorce. in the loss of my — alcoholic? through a divorce. in the loss of my father. _ alcoholic? through a divorce. in the loss of my father. it's _ alcoholic? through a divorce. in the loss of my father. it's a _ alcoholic? through a divorce. in the loss of my father. it's a struggle - loss of my father. it's a struggle every— loss of my father. it's a struggle every day — loss of my father. it's a struggle every day. it is a struggle. you know? — every day. it is a struggle. you know? for— every day. it is a struggle. you know? fortwo every day. it is a struggle. you know? for two years now, i have been sober~ _ know? for two years now, i have been sober~ i_ know? for two years now, i have been sober~ i was_ know? for two years now, i have been sober. i was sober for over seven years. _ sober. i was sober for over seven years. and — sober. i was sober for over seven years, and then my friend died and at the _ years, and then my friend died and at the week, i thought i could just have _ at the week, i thought i could just have one. — at the week, i thought i could just have one, just to toast him, and it took— have one, just to toast him, and it took me _ have one, just to toast him, and it took me only— have one, just to toast him, and it took me only two week vendor. —— matt— took me only two week vendor. —— mail a _ took me only two week vendor. —— mail a two— took me only two week vendor. —— matt a two week vendor. two took me only two week vendor. -- matt a two week vendor. two years is amazinu. matt a two week vendor. two years is amazing- it — matt a two week vendor. two years is amazing- it is — matt a two week vendor. two years is amazing- it is a _ matt a two week vendor. two years is amazing. it is a fantastic _ amazing. it is a fantastic achievement. it amazing. it is a fantastic achievement.— amazing. it is a fantastic achievement. , ., , ., , achievement. it was, severalyears auo, achievement. it was, severalyears ago. when — achievement. it was, severalyears ago. when i _ achievement. it was, severalyears ago, when i stopped,... _ achievement. it was, severalyears ago, when i stopped,... i- achievement. it was, severalyears ago, when i stopped,... i want- achievement. it was, severalyears ago, when i stopped,... i want to l ago, when i stopped,... i want to ut this ago, when i stopped,... i want to put this to _ ago, when i stopped,... i want to put this to richard _ ago, when i stopped,... i want to put this to richard piper. - ago, when i stopped,... i want to put this to richard piper. and - put this to richard piper. and racher put this to richard piper. and rachel's point, the chief executive of alcohol change uk. wrap this up briefly, i have overrun from the news. 30 cans at £20. what do you make of these issues in supermarkets? shall make of these issues in supermarkets?- make of these issues in suermarkets? ,, , ., supermarkets? all your speakers have made powerful — supermarkets? all your speakers have made powerful points, _ supermarkets? all your speakers have made powerful points, kevin - supermarkets? all your speakers have made powerful points, kevin in - made powerful points, kevin in particular. _ made powerful points, kevin in particular. we _ made powerful points, kevin in particular, we cannot _ made powerful points, kevin in particular, we cannot tax - made powerful points, kevin in particular, we cannot tax our. made powerful points, kevin in. particular, we cannot tax our way out of— particular, we cannot tax our way out of this — particular, we cannot tax our way out of this we _ particular, we cannot tax our way out of this. we triggered - particular, we cannot tax our way out of this. we triggered this - out of this. we triggered this conversation _ out of this. we triggered this conversation by— out of this. we triggered this conversation by talking - out of this. we triggered this| conversation by talking about out of this. we triggered this - conversation by talking about tax on alcohol, _ conversation by talking about tax on alcohol, increasing _ conversation by talking about tax on alcohol, increasing price, _ conversation by talking about tax on alcohol, increasing price, minimuml alcohol, increasing price, minimum unit alcohol, increasing price, minimum uhit pricing — alcohol, increasing price, minimum unit pricing which _ alcohol, increasing price, minimum unit pricing which already— alcohol, increasing price, minimum unit pricing which already exist - alcohol, increasing price, minimum unit pricing which already exist in l unit pricing which already exist in scotland — unit pricing which already exist in scotland and _ unit pricing which already exist in scotland and wales, _ unit pricing which already exist in scotland and wales, is _ unit pricing which already exist in scotland and wales, is a - unit pricing which already exist in . scotland and wales, is a no—brainer. it takes _ scotland and wales, is a no—brainer. it takes the — scotland and wales, is a no—brainer. it takes the strong _ scotland and wales, is a no—brainer. it takes the strong cheap _ scotland and wales, is a no—brainer. it takes the strong cheap alcohol - it takes the strong cheap alcohol out of _ it takes the strong cheap alcohol out of the — it takes the strong cheap alcohol out of the system _ it takes the strong cheap alcohol out of the system and _ it takes the strong cheap alcohol out of the system and it - it takes the strong cheap alcohol out of the system and it means i it takes the strong cheap alcohol. out of the system and it means that people _ out of the system and it means that people are — out of the system and it means that people are less _ out of the system and it means that people are less likely _ out of the system and it means that people are less likely to... - out of the system and it means that people are less likely to... horat- people are less likely to... how much of a _ people are less likely to... how much of a problem are - people are less likely to... hue. much of a problem are the supermarkets? queen the supermarket marketing, the promotion at the front of the supermarket is one of the most common complaints that we see. we the most common complaints that we see. ~ ., ., , the most common complaints that we see, ~ ., ., , , see. we do not believe it is in the interest of— see. we do not believe it is in the interest of consumers _ see. we do not believe it is in the interest of consumers in - see. we do not believe it is in the interest of consumers in terms i see. we do not believe it is in the interest of consumers in terms of| interest of consumers in terms of their— interest of consumers in terms of their health. _ interest of consumers in terms of their health, we _ interest of consumers in terms of their health, we do _ interest of consumers in terms of their health, we do not _ interest of consumers in terms of their health, we do not have - their health, we do not have sweeties— their health, we do not have sweeties at— their health, we do not have sweeties at the _ their health, we do not have sweeties at the cash - their health, we do not have sweeties at the cash point . their health, we do not have - sweeties at the cash point because of the _ sweeties at the cash point because of the effect — sweeties at the cash point because of the effect of _ sweeties at the cash point because of the effect of that. _ sweeties at the cash point because of the effect of that. having - of the effect of that. having alcohol— of the effect of that. having alcohol cheap _ of the effect of that. having alcohol cheap and _ of the effect of that. having alcohol cheap and so - of the effect of that. having - alcohol cheap and so prominent in stores _ alcohol cheap and so prominent in stores is _ alcohol cheap and so prominent in stores is something _ alcohol cheap and so prominent in stores is something that - alcohol cheap and so prominent in stores is something that needs. alcohol cheap and so prominent in stores is something that needs to| alcohol cheap and so prominent in . stores is something that needs to be addressed _ stores is something that needs to be addressed in— stores is something that needs to be addressed in scotland, _ stores is something that needs to be addressed in scotland, that - stores is something that needs to be addressed in scotland, that is - stores is something that needs to be addressed in scotland, that is not. addressed in scotland, that is not allowed — addressed in scotland, that is not allowed it— addressed in scotland, that is not allowed it is— addressed in scotland, that is not allowed. it is separated _ addressed in scotland, that is not allowed. it is separated alcohol. addressed in scotland, that is not| allowed. it is separated alcohol to allowed. it is separated alcohol to a different — allowed. it is separated alcohol to a different part _ allowed. it is separated alcohol to a different part of— allowed. it is separated alcohol to a different part of the _ allowed. it is separated alcohol to| a different part of the supermarket like it _ a different part of the supermarket like it used — a different part of the supermarket like it used to _ a different part of the supermarket like it used to be _ a different part of the supermarket like it used to be in _ a different part of the supermarket like it used to be in england. - a different part of the supermarket like it used to be in england. this. like it used to be in england. this is a problem _ like it used to be in england. this is a problem for— like it used to be in england. this is a problem for england - like it used to be in england. this is a problem for england but- like it used to be in england. this is a problem for england but notl is a problem for england but not necessarily— is a problem for england but not necessarily the _ is a problem for england but not necessarily the whole _ is a problem for england but not necessarily the whole of- is a problem for england but not necessarily the whole of the - is a problem for england but notj necessarily the whole of the uk. have _ necessarily the whole of the uk. have you — necessarily the whole of the uk. have you been— necessarily the whole of the uk. have you been affected - necessarily the whole of the uk. have you been affected by - necessarily the whole of the uk. have you been affected by any l necessarily the whole of the uk. - have you been affected by any issues in our programme this morning? a range of websites can offer support, you can find it on the action line website. more to come on the alcohol tax. is it strong enough? get in touch. it came and it was there. here is the news. as we've been hearing on the show — major changes to alcohol duty have come into force. drinks will now be taxed according to how strong they are. it means most wines and spirits will go up in price — while some weak beers and sparkling wines will become cheaper. new figures show the rate at which food prices are rising slowed last month. the british retail consortium says food inflation was at 13.a% injuly — its lowest level since the end of last year. the building society — nationwide — says house prices fell by nearly li% in the year tojuly. that's the biggest drop since 2009. it also says buying property is difficult right now — due to higher interest rates on mortgages. the family of captain sir tom moore has defended constructing a home spa without permission. plans for an office to be built for the family's charity — the captain tom foundation — were originally given the go ahead. but new plans were submitted later — for a swimming pool, toilet and kitchen. the family have been told to knock it down, but have lodged an appeal. now the sport. it's another big day for england at the women's world cup, as they play their final group game against china in adelaide this lunchtime, a draw will be enough for the lionnesses to qualify top of group d. bbc sport's vicki sparks is there for us: welcome to adelaide, a point would do it for england against the reigning asian champions china to get through to the knockout stages of the women's world cup. if they were to lose, they leave the door open for china and denmark to perhaps overtake them. they will have to do it without their key midfielder, they are yet to concede a goal at this women's world cup, and as reigning european champions they are one of the big favourites for this tournament, will be progressed safely through to the last 16? join us on radio 5 live, kick off is at midday uk time. and commentary on 5live from 11. kick off is at 12. it's also denmark against haiti. earlier, the width of a post saved the holders usa from being eliminated. they drew 0—0 with portugal, portugal hitting the woodwork in injury time. it means usa are second in group e, behind the netherlands who thrashed vietnam 7—nil. and it's day one of glorious goodwood, frankie dettori will chase a record sixth win in the goodwood cup at 4:35. dettori is on—board his royal ascot gold cup winner courage mon ami and faces the runner—up coltrane. this is your programme where you get your chance to express your views on the news, literally on the news programmes. alcohol tax, is it too strong? let me remind you of the basic principle, with variations and permutations. the higher the alcohol content, the higher the tax. we have a collar from content, the higher the tax. we have a collarfrom leeds, brentwood and richard piper is with us, chief executive of alcohol change uk. some takes are saying pretty hard line but a lot of support as well given the effects on our society. good morning, danny. first of all, a recovering alcoholic, an amazing achievement. fora recovering alcoholic, an amazing achievement. for a long time. and from your text, you work in alcoholics anonymous. what do you think about higher prices? has a recovering _ think about higher prices? has a recovering alcoholic, _ think about higher prices? has a recovering alcoholic, it - think about higher prices? has a recovering alcoholic, it is - think about higher prices? has a recovering alcoholic, it is not. think about higher prices? has a recovering alcoholic, it is not a l recovering alcoholic, it is not a sermon — recovering alcoholic, it is not a sermon on _ recovering alcoholic, it is not a sermon on everyone's recovery, a different— sermon on everyone's recovery, a different road to not picking up a drink, _ different road to not picking up a drink, a — different road to not picking up a drink, a minute ago that struggle every— drink, a minute ago that struggle every day, — drink, a minute ago that struggle every day, i am lucky, it does not affect— every day, i am lucky, it does not affect my— every day, i am lucky, it does not affect my life, i do not think about it any— affect my life, i do not think about it any more. — affect my life, i do not think about it any more, i have had personal tragedies. — it any more, i have had personal tragedies, my wife passed away from cancer. _ tragedies, my wife passed away from cancer, many things have happened to me, cancer, many things have happened to me. lrut— cancer, many things have happened to me. but i_ cancer, many things have happened to me. but i did _ cancer, many things have happened to me, but i did not pick up a drink. i am lucky— me, but i did not pick up a drink. i am luckyt— me, but i did not pick up a drink. i am lucky i do— me, but i did not pick up a drink. i am lucky i do not struggle because i regularly— am lucky i do not struggle because i regularly go to meetings. my point is, it regularly go to meetings. my point is. it does— regularly go to meetings. my point is, it does not matter if they increase _ is, it does not matter if they increase the price buy whatever they are going _ increase the price buy whatever they are going to raise it by like a packet — are going to raise it by like a packet of— are going to raise it by like a packet of cigarettes, people are still going to buy it. or they are going _ still going to buy it. or they are going to — still going to buy it. or they are going to drink more of it to get the same _ going to drink more of it to get the same kick— going to drink more of it to get the same kick out of it that they want to get _ same kick out of it that they want to get it — same kick out of it that they want to get. it doesn't matter in my opinion — to get. it doesn't matter in my opinion. my parents were smokers, only this _ opinion. my parents were smokers, only this morning, i looked at a packet — only this morning, i looked at a packet of— only this morning, i looked at a packet of cigarettes, the ones i used _ packet of cigarettes, the ones i used to— packet of cigarettes, the ones i used to smoke, 15 quid! �*ie: packet of cigarettes, the ones i used to smoke, 15 quid!- packet of cigarettes, the ones i used to smoke, 15 quid! 15 quid now! 15 auid for used to smoke, 15 quid! 15 quid now! 15 quid for a — used to smoke, 15 quid! 15 quid now! 15 quid for a packet _ used to smoke, 15 quid! 15 quid now! 15 quid for a packet of _ used to smoke, 15 quid! 15 quid now! 15 quid for a packet of well-known i 15 quid for a packet of well— known cigarettes. — 15 quid for a packet of well— known cigarettes, the brand that i smoked was £15_ cigarettes, the brand that i smoked was £15 50. when you pass through duty free. _ was £15 50. when you pass through duty free, you can buy 200 in america — duty free, you can buy 200 in america for the same amount of money for one _ america for the same amount of money for one packet in england. what about that! _ for one packet in england. what about that! a _ for one packet in england. what about that! a guy _ for one packet in england. what about that! a guy in _ for one packet in england. “transit about that! a guy in manchester for one packet in england. “fa"usgtt about that! a guy in manchester said he smoked 60 a day. 60 a day! people are aaoin he smoked 60 a day. 60 a day! people are going to — he smoked 60 a day. 60 a day! people are going to pay _ he smoked 60 a day. 60 a day! people are going to pay it _ he smoked 60 a day. 60 a day! people are going to pay it because _ he smoked 60 a day. 60 a day! people are going to pay it because they - he smoked 60 a day. 60 a day! people are going to pay it because they are . are going to pay it because they are addicted _ are going to pay it because they are addicted to — are going to pay it because they are addicted to it. there is a very fine line between alcohol dependency and alcoholism. as i said to your researcher earlier, i do not see i am an— researcher earlier, i do not see i am an alcoholic in public because i always— am an alcoholic in public because i always get— am an alcoholic in public because i always get one person who says i drink— always get one person who says i drink a _ always get one person who says i drink a bottle of wine a night, do you think— drink a bottle of wine a night, do you think i — drink a bottle of wine a night, do you think i have got a problem? and i am |. _ you think i have got a problem? and i am i. well. — you think i have got a problem? and lam i, well, what do you think i have got a problem? and i am i, well, what do you think? it is a very— i am i, well, what do you think? it is a very fine — i am i, well, what do you think? it is a very fine line, you have alcoholics _ is a very fine line, you have alcoholics who are people who are floating _ alcoholics who are people who are floating alcoholics and people whose lives become to complete stop. i was a functioning alcoholic but ijumped off of— a functioning alcoholic but ijumped off of the _ a functioning alcoholic but ijumped off of the elevator at the top and stayed _ off of the elevator at the top and stayed there. off of the elevator at the top and stayed there-— stayed there. how much are you drinkina ? stayed there. how much are you drinking? how _ stayed there. how much are you drinking? how much _ stayed there. how much are you drinking? how much did - stayed there. how much are you drinking? how much did you - stayed there. how much are you i drinking? how much did you drink? two bottles of rum a day. that sounds — two bottles of rum a day. that sounds dramatic, from the morning i’ilht sounds dramatic, from the morning right through to the evening. and when _ right through to the evening. and when t _ right through to the evening. and when i came back to the uk, i was drinking— when i came back to the uk, i was drinking a— when i came back to the uk, i was drinking a bottle of whiskey a day. it was _ drinking a bottle of whiskey a day. it was a _ drinking a bottle of whiskey a day. it was a constant top up. it wasn't one hit. _ it was a constant top up. it wasn't one hit, during the day, weekend, it would _ one hit, during the day, weekend, it would go _ one hit, during the day, weekend, it would go ballistic. my late wife unfortunately had seven years of me being _ unfortunately had seven years of me being completely hammered. and then she had _ being completely hammered. and then she had seven years of me sober. and then she _ she had seven years of me sober. and then she passed away of cancer. to then she passed away of cancer. to the point _ then she passed away of cancer. to the point at — then she passed away of cancer. to the point at the funeral, people were _ the point at the funeral, people were trying to smell my breath to see if— were trying to smell my breath to see if i_ were trying to smell my breath to see if i had — were trying to smell my breath to see if i had a relapse. which i found — see if i had a relapse. which i found embarrassing, but disrespectful also. that is the way of the _ disrespectful also. that is the way of the world, unfortunately. alcohol. _ of the world, unfortunately. alcohol, i go out with people all the time — alcohol, i go outwith people all the time i— alcohol, i go out with people all the time. i buy a alcohol, i go out with people all the time. i buya round alcohol, i go out with people all the time. i buy a round of drinks at the time. i buy a round of drinks at the tennis— the time. i buy a round of drinks at the tennis club, 50 quid and i will have _ the tennis club, 50 quid and i will have a _ the tennis club, 50 quid and i will have a coca—cola. the tennis club, 50 quid and i will have a coca-cola.— have a coca-cola. what is it like when you _ have a coca-cola. what is it like when you are — have a coca-cola. what is it like when you are taking _ have a coca-cola. what is it like when you are taking a _ have a coca-cola. what is it like when you are taking a trip - have a coca-cola. what is it like when you are taking a trip backl have a coca-cola. what is it like l when you are taking a trip back on carrying the alcohol back and you get the smell of the alcohol? i miss a nice glass — get the smell of the alcohol? i miss a nice glass of _ get the smell of the alcohol? i miss a nice glass of wine _ get the smell of the alcohol? i miss a nice glass of wine with _ get the smell of the alcohol? i miss a nice glass of wine with a - get the smell of the alcohol? i miss a nice glass of wine with a nice - a nice glass of wine with a nice steak— a nice glass of wine with a nice steak or— a nice glass of wine with a nice steak or a _ a nice glass of wine with a nice steak or a glass of wine with a fish dish~ _ steak or a glass of wine with a fish dish~ but— steak or a glass of wine with a fish dish~ but i— steak or a glass of wine with a fish dish. but i will not stop there. if you said — dish. but i will not stop there. if you said to— dish. but i will not stop there. if you said to me have one year, i would _ you said to me have one year, i would be — you said to me have one year, i would be thinking about that all day until the _ would be thinking about that all day until the next day, then it would be one. _ until the next day, then it would be one. two. _ until the next day, then it would be one, two, three. i have been around 22 years— one, two, three. i have been around 22 years now— one, two, three. i have been around 22 years now sober and i have seen so many— 22 years now sober and i have seen so many people full of the wagon. i constantly— so many people full of the wagon. i constantly go to meetings. ? do you -et constantly go to meetings. ? do you get that. _ constantly go to meetings. ? do you get that, people encouraging you? they are _ get that, people encouraging you? they are people i don't want to be around _ they are people i don't want to be around. when you get sober, you change. — around. when you get sober, you change, people, places and things. if change, people, places and things. if you _ change, people, places and things. if you go _ change, people, places and things. if you go to— change, people, places and things. if you go to the hairdresser, what is going _ if you go to the hairdresser, what is going to — if you go to the hairdresser, what is going to happen? you get your hair cut — is going to happen? you get your hair cut. when i get to the point when _ hair cut. when i get to the point when i _ hair cut. when i get to the point when i have had enough of being in the social— when i have had enough of being in the social circle when everyone is hammered, i go home, and i watch netfliac _ hammered, i go home, and i watch netfliac the — hammered, i go home, and i watch netflix. the next day, you hear the carnage _ netflix. the next day, you hear the carnage are — netflix. the next day, you hear the carnage are the fun from the night before _ carnage are the fun from the night before or— carnage are the fun from the night before or the punch—up. they are going _ before or the punch—up. they are going off— before or the punch—up. they are going off track a little bit, i feel that it _ going off track a little bit, i feel that it does not matter what the duty price — that it does not matter what the duty price is on alcohol, people are going _ duty price is on alcohol, people are going to _ duty price is on alcohol, people are going to drink it. that's my point. tony— going to drink it. that's my point. tony in— going to drink it. that's my point. tony in lincoln, what do you think? i want to hear the other side of it. you do not like the tax. i i want to hear the other side of it. you do not like the tax.— i want to hear the other side of it. you do not like the tax. i am not in lincoln. you do not like the tax. i am not in lincoln- my — you do not like the tax. i am not in lincoln. my mistake. _ you do not like the tax. i am not in lincoln. my mistake. what - you do not like the tax. i am not in lincoln. my mistake. what do - you do not like the tax. i am not in lincoln. my mistake. what do you| lincoln. my mistake. what do you reckon? putting _ lincoln. my mistake. what do you reckon? putting high _ lincoln. my mistake. what do you reckon? putting high taxes - lincoln. my mistake. what do you reckon? putting high taxes on - lincoln. my mistake. what do you i reckon? putting high taxes on drink, it not only doesn't _ reckon? putting high taxes on drink, it not only doesn't stop _ reckon? putting high taxes on drink, it not only doesn't stop people - reckon? putting high taxes on drink, it not only doesn't stop people from | it not only doesn't stop people from seeking _ it not only doesn't stop people from seeking alcohol, _ it not only doesn't stop people from seeking alcohol, it _ it not only doesn't stop people from seeking alcohol, it will _ it not only doesn't stop people from seeking alcohol, it will also - seeking alcohol, it will also facilitate _ seeking alcohol, it will also facilitate illegal— seeking alcohol, it will also facilitate illegal drinking. seeking alcohol, it will also i facilitate illegal drinking made seeking alcohol, it will also - facilitate illegal drinking made by some _ facilitate illegal drinking made by some people _ facilitate illegal drinking made by some people here _ facilitate illegal drinking made by some people here in— facilitate illegal drinking made by some people here in lincolnshirej facilitate illegal drinking made by- some people here in lincolnshire who by illicit— some people here in lincolnshire who by illicit vodka — some people here in lincolnshire who by illicit vodka that _ some people here in lincolnshire who by illicit vodka that has _ some people here in lincolnshire who by illicit vodka that has been - by illicit vodka that has been manufactured _ by illicit vodka that has been manufactured on _ by illicit vodka that has been manufactured on the - by illicit vodka that has been manufactured on the backs i by illicit vodka that has been| manufactured on the backs of trailers. — manufactured on the backs of trailers, work— manufactured on the backs of trailers, work units, - manufactured on the backs of trailers, work units, and - manufactured on the backs of trailers, work units, and thatl manufactured on the backs of i trailers, work units, and that is dangerous _ trailers, work units, and that is dangerous. the _ trailers, work units, and that is dangerous. the substance - trailers, work units, and that is| dangerous. the substance itself trailers, work units, and that is i dangerous. the substance itself is so dangerous _ dangerous. the substance itself is so dangerous it _ dangerous. the substance itself is so dangerous. it could _ dangerous. the substance itself is so dangerous. it could bring - dangerous. the substance itself is so dangerous. it could bring backl so dangerous. it could bring back smuggling — so dangerous. it could bring back smuggling alcohol— so dangerous. it could bring back smuggling alcohol into _ so dangerous. it could bring back smuggling alcohol into the - so dangerous. it could bring back. smuggling alcohol into the country from abroad — smuggling alcohol into the country from abroad. it _ smuggling alcohol into the country from abroad. it is _ smuggling alcohol into the country from abroad. it isjust— smuggling alcohol into the country from abroad. it isjust going - smuggling alcohol into the country from abroad. it isjust going to- from abroad. it isjust going to make — from abroad. it isjust going to make more _ from abroad. it isjust going to make more lucrative _ from abroad. it isjust going to make more lucrative for- from abroad. it isjust going to| make more lucrative for people from abroad. it isjust going to. make more lucrative for people to start doing — make more lucrative for people to start doing that _ make more lucrative for people to start doing that even _ make more lucrative for people to start doing that even more. - make more lucrative for people to start doing that even more. do i make more lucrative for people to start doing that even more. do you feel this is — start doing that even more. do you feel this is an _ start doing that even more. do you feel this is an attack— start doing that even more. do you feel this is an attack on _ start doing that even more. do you feel this is an attack on people i start doing that even more. do you| feel this is an attack on people who are drinking for pleasure? not drinking to excess? drinking for just a treat. drinking to excess? drinking for just a treat-— just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it- _ just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it- i _ just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it. i can _ just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it. i can go _ just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it. i can go out, - just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it. i can go out, i - just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it. i can go out, i have i just a treat. yes. i can drink or leave it. i can go out, i have a| leave it. i can go out, i have a very— leave it. i can go out, i have a very good _ leave it. i can go out, i have a very good friend... _ leave it. i can go out, i have a very good friend. . ._ leave it. i can go out, i have a very good friend... please hold. that was automated _ very good friend... please hold. that was automated voice i very good friend... please hold. | that was automated voice saying please hold. that was automated voice saying please hold-— please hold. sorry about that. please carry — please hold. sorry about that. please carry on. _ please hold. sorry about that. please carry on. i _ please hold. sorry about that. please carry on. i have - please hold. sorry about that. please carry on. i have a i please hold. sorry about that. please carry on. i have a very| please hold. sorry about that. i please carry on. i have a very good friend in nottingham _ please carry on. i have a very good friend in nottingham who - please carry on. i have a very good friend in nottingham who has i please carry on. i have a very good friend in nottingham who has a i please carry on. i have a very good i friend in nottingham who has a greek restaurant _ friend in nottingham who has a greek restaurant and — friend in nottingham who has a greek restaurant and i— friend in nottingham who has a greek restaurant and i will _ friend in nottingham who has a greek restaurant and i will happily— friend in nottingham who has a greek restaurant and i will happily drive i restaurant and i will happily drive there _ restaurant and i will happily drive there for— restaurant and i will happily drive there for a — restaurant and i will happily drive there for a really— restaurant and i will happily drive there for a really good _ restaurant and i will happily drive there for a really good night i restaurant and i will happily drivej there for a really good night have restaurant and i will happily drive l there for a really good night have a nice meal. — there for a really good night have a nice meal. and _ there for a really good night have a nice meal, and have _ there for a really good night have a nice meal, and have a _ there for a really good night have a nice meal, and have a good talk. there for a really good night have a i nice meal, and have a good talk with him. _ nice meal, and have a good talk with him. i_ nice meal, and have a good talk with him. iwill— nice meal, and have a good talk with him. twill have — nice meal, and have a good talk with him, i will have one _ nice meal, and have a good talk with him, i will have one glass— nice meal, and have a good talk with him, i will have one glass of- nice meal, and have a good talk with him, i will have one glass of wine i him, i will have one glass of wine with my— him, i will have one glass of wine with my meal— him, i will have one glass of wine with my meal and _ him, i will have one glass of wine with my meal and that _ him, i will have one glass of wine with my meal and that is - him, i will have one glass of wine with my meal and that is it. i- him, i will have one glass of wine with my meal and that is it. i aml with my meal and that is it. i am quite _ with my meal and that is it. i am quite happy— with my meal and that is it. i am quite happy to— with my meal and that is it. i am quite happy to have _ with my meal and that is it. i am quite happy to have that. - with my meal and that is it. i am quite happy to have that. and i with my meal and that is it. i am i quite happy to have that. and drive all the _ quite happy to have that. and drive all the way— quite happy to have that. and drive all the way back— quite happy to have that. and drive all the way back from _ quite happy to have that. and drive all the way back from nottingham. | quite happy to have that. and drive i all the way back from nottingham. it is a good _ all the way back from nottingham. it is a good night — all the way back from nottingham. it is a good night out. _ all the way back from nottingham. it is a good night out. you— all the way back from nottingham. it is a good night out.— is a good night out. you are all riaht to is a good night out. you are all right to drive _ is a good night out. you are all right to drive with _ is a good night out. you are all right to drive with one - is a good night out. you are all right to drive with one glass i is a good night out. you are all right to drive with one glass of| right to drive with one glass of wine. . . , right to drive with one glass of wine. , . , ., ., wine. yes, i have my meal at the start of the _ wine. yes, i have my meal at the start of the evening, _ wine. yes, i have my meal at the start of the evening, i _ wine. yes, i have my meal at the start of the evening, i have i start of the evening, i have my glass— start of the evening, i have my glass of— start of the evening, i have my glass of wine _ start of the evening, i have my glass of wine with _ start of the evening, i have my glass of wine with it, _ start of the evening, i have my glass of wine with it, i- start of the evening, i have my glass of wine with it, i am i start of the evening, i have my. glass of wine with it, i am usually thereto _ glass of wine with it, i am usually thereto gone _ glass of wine with it, i am usually thereto gone midnight _ glass of wine with it, i am usually thereto gone midnight anyway, . glass of wine with it, i am usually- thereto gone midnight anyway, there is entertainment— thereto gone midnight anyway, there is entertainment laid _ thereto gone midnight anyway, there is entertainment laid on, _ thereto gone midnight anyway, there is entertainment laid on, i— thereto gone midnight anyway, there is entertainment laid on, i would i is entertainment laid on, i would -et is entertainment laid on, i would get there — is entertainment laid on, i would get there at— is entertainment laid on, i would get there at seven _ is entertainment laid on, i would get there at seven o'clock, - is entertainment laid on, i would get there at seven o'clock, one i get there at seven o'clock, one glass— get there at seven o'clock, one glass of— get there at seven o'clock, one glass of wine _ get there at seven o'clock, one glass of wine with _ get there at seven o'clock, one glass of wine with a _ get there at seven o'clock, one glass of wine with a body - get there at seven o'clock, one glass of wine with a body massi get there at seven o'clock, one - glass of wine with a body mass like mine _ glass of wine with a body mass like mine is_ glass of wine with a body mass like mine is more — glass of wine with a body mass like mine is more than, _ glass of wine with a body mass like mine is more than, you _ glass of wine with a body mass like mine is more than, you know, - glass of wine with a body mass like i mine is more than, you know, enough time for— mine is more than, you know, enough time for the _ mine is more than, you know, enough time for the alcohol— mine is more than, you know, enough time for the alcohol to _ mine is more than, you know, enough time for the alcohol to burn _ mine is more than, you know, enough time for the alcohol to burn off. - mine is more than, you know, enough time for the alcohol to burn off. i- time for the alcohol to burn off. i 'ust time for the alcohol to burn off. i just feel— time for the alcohol to burn off. i just feet if— time for the alcohol to burn off. i just feel if people _ time for the alcohol to burn off. i just feel if people need _ time for the alcohol to burn off. i just feel if people need to, - time for the alcohol to burn off. i just feel if people need to, what| just feel if people need to, what is the word? — just feel if people need to, what is the word? it— just feel if people need to, what is the word? if i _ just feel if people need to, what is the word? if i go _ just feel if people need to, what is the word? if i go over— just feel if people need to, what is the word? if i go over to _ just feel if people need to, what is the word? if i go over to the - the word? if i go over to the continent. _ the word? if i go over to the continent. '— the word? if i go over to the continent, i do _ the word? if i go over to the continent, i do not - the word? if i go over to the continent, i do not see - the word? if i go over to the l continent, i do not see people acting — continent, i do not see people acting in— continent, i do not see people acting in the _ continent, i do not see people acting in the streets _ continent, i do not see people acting in the streets the - continent, i do not see people acting in the streets the way. continent, i do not see people i acting in the streets the way they did here — acting in the streets the way they did here in — acting in the streets the way they did here in britain. _ acting in the streets the way they did here in britain. i— acting in the streets the way they did here in britain. i have - acting in the streets the way they did here in britain. i have had - did here in britain. i have had family— did here in britain. i have had fanrity and _ did here in britain. i have had family and friends _ did here in britain. i have had family and friends come - did here in britain. i have had family and friends come over| did here in britain. i have had - family and friends come over from italy family and friends come over from itaty and _ family and friends come over from itaty and they _ family and friends come over from italy and they wanted _ family and friends come over from italy and they wanted to _ family and friends come over from italy and they wanted to go - family and friends come over from italy and they wanted to go into i family and friends come over from i italy and they wanted to go into the city on _ italy and they wanted to go into the city on a _ italy and they wanted to go into the city on a night — italy and they wanted to go into the city on a night out, _ italy and they wanted to go into the city on a night out, and _ italy and they wanted to go into the city on a night out, and quite - city on a night out, and quite frankly, _ city on a night out, and quite frankly, i— city on a night out, and quite frankly, i have _ city on a night out, and quite frankly, i have been - city on a night out, and quite| frankly, i have been ashamed city on a night out, and quite - frankly, i have been ashamed when you see _ frankly, i have been ashamed when you see people _ frankly, i have been ashamed when you see people in— frankly, i have been ashamed when you see people in the _ frankly, i have been ashamed when you see people in the gutter. - frankly, i have been ashamed when you see people in the gutter. [it- frankly, i have been ashamed when you see people in the gutter. [it is. you see people in the gutter. it is unbelievable! _ you see people in the gutter. it is unbelievable! i— you see people in the gutter. unbelievable! i am you see people in the gutter. unbelievable! iam not you see people in the gutter. iii iii: unbelievable! i am not going you see people in the gutter. unbelievable! i am not going to you see people in the gutter.- unbelievable! i am not going to talk about certain cities but i have had some extraordinary experiences. i bet you have as well.— some extraordinary experiences. i bet you have as well. good morning. yes, i bet you have as well. good morning. yes. i have — bet you have as well. good morning. yes. i have had _ bet you have as well. good morning. yes, i have had experiences - bet you have as well. good morning. yes, i have had experiences where i | yes, i have had experiences where i have treen— yes, i have had experiences where i have been approached by people who were drunk— have been approached by people who were drunk on the street and being a british— were drunk on the street and being a british asian, they attract that type _ british asian, they attract that type of— british asian, they attract that type of person. name calling on the rest of— type of person. name calling on the rest of it _ type of person. name calling on the rest of it. and that is induced by all the _ rest of it. and that is induced by all the alcohol they have been consuming, really, you know? but it is inside them _ consuming, really, you know? but it is inside them in _ consuming, really, you know? but it is inside them in the _ consuming, really, you know? but it is inside them in the first _ consuming, really, you know? but it is inside them in the first place. - is inside them in the first place. yes, i suppose the need dutch courage. — yes, i suppose the need dutch courage, really, but the reason i -ot courage, really, but the reason i got in _ courage, really, but the reason i got in touch— courage, really, but the reason i got in touch is because the plain fact is— got in touch is because the plain fact is if— got in touch is because the plain fact is if they invented alcohol today, — fact is if they invented alcohol today, because it is obvious it is a depressant, — today, because it is obvious it is a depressant, it is not something... if depressant, it is not something... if people — depressant, it is not something... if people think they feel happy when they drink, that's fine, it is the after— they drink, that's fine, it is the after effects that makes them suicidat — after effects that makes them suicidal. i will give you an example. i suicidal. i will give you an example-— suicidal. i will give you an example. suicidal. i will give you an examle. ~' ., , ., , example. i like a couple of bottles of beer during _ example. i like a couple of bottles of beer during the _ example. i like a couple of bottles of beer during the week— example. i like a couple of bottles of beer during the week and - example. i like a couple of bottles of beer during the week and a - example. i like a couple of bottles. of beer during the week and a glass of beer during the week and a glass of whiskey on a friday night, it is relaxing, it is a warming feeling, it is just the one, or maybe two, it is not a problem, i am like most people. i is not a problem, i am like most --eole. ~ , is not a problem, i am like most neale, ~ , ., ., is not a problem, i am like most --eole. ,, , ., ., ., people. i think it is fortunate that ou are people. i think it is fortunate that you are able _ people. i think it is fortunate that you are able to _ people. i think it is fortunate that you are able to control _ people. i think it is fortunate that you are able to control the - people. i think it is fortunate that l you are able to control the amount that you _ you are able to control the amount that you consume. but the issue here is that— that you consume. but the issue here is that people who can't control it, like i_ is that people who can't control it, like i mentioned, last year, the nhs spent _ like i mentioned, last year, the nhs spent over— like i mentioned, last year, the nhs spent over {3.5 billion towards alcoholism, to alcoholics. i mean, like, _ alcoholism, to alcoholics. i mean, like. £35— alcoholism, to alcoholics. i mean, like, {3.5 billion could be spent elsewhere, you know? like, £3.5 billion could be spent elsewhere, you know?- like, £15 billion could be spent elsewhere, you know? what would you do? we would — elsewhere, you know? what would you do? we would all— elsewhere, you know? what would you do? we would all be _ elsewhere, you know? what would you do? we would all be smoking - elsewhere, you know? what would you do? we would all be smoking weed - elsewhere, you know? what would you do? we would all be smoking weed if. do? we would all be smoking weed if there was no alcohol. i do? we would all be smoking weed if there was no alcohol.— there was no alcohol. i think the science is _ there was no alcohol. i think the science is still _ there was no alcohol. i think the science is still out _ there was no alcohol. i think the science is still out as _ there was no alcohol. i think the science is still out as far - there was no alcohol. i think the science is still out as far as - science is still out as far as consuming wheat is concerned. i'm sure in— consuming wheat is concerned. i'm sure in the — consuming wheat is concerned. i'm sure in the long term it cannot good for you _ sure in the long term it cannot good for you we — sure in the long term it cannot good for ou. ~ ., sure in the long term it cannot good for ou. ~ . , ., for you. we need a little bit of a... for you. we need a little bit of a- -- unless — for you. we need a little bit of a... unless you _ for you. we need a little bit of a... unless you have - for you. we need a little bit of a... unless you have an - for you. we need a little bit of - a... unless you have an ideological or religious, for most people, it is something they do and it does not cause them any harm at all. but you make a really good point, about the devastation in our society. how do you feel when you see one of those hen are stag dos, what do you think? signs mark will hen are stag dos, what do you think? sins mar , ., ,, ., hen are stag dos, what do you think? sins mar , ., ~' ., hen are stag dos, what do you think? sinsmar ~' ., , signs mark you know something is auoin to signs mark you know something is oaian to ao signs mark you know something is going to go wrong- _ signs mark you know something is going to go wrong. i _ signs mark you know something is going to go wrong. i have - signs mark you know something is going to go wrong. i have actually| going to go wrong. i have actually seen _ going to go wrong. i have actually seen people in a party where they were _ seen people in a party where they were the — seen people in a party where they were the best of friends and the drinks _ were the best of friends and the drinks too — were the best of friends and the drinks too much and they ended up punching _ drinks too much and they ended up punching each other. it is really regrettable. coming back to the hospitals, i want to say back in 2018. — hospitals, i want to say back in 2018. i— hospitals, i want to say back in 2018, i lost my father unfortunately. we had taken him in because _ unfortunately. we had taken him in because he — unfortunately. we had taken him in because he had low blood pressure and he _ because he had low blood pressure and he was — because he had low blood pressure and he was collapsing. we wanted to have him _ and he was collapsing. we wanted to have him looked at and while we were there. _ have him looked at and while we were there. the _ have him looked at and while we were there, the doctor and nurse said you do not _ there, the doctor and nurse said you do not have — there, the doctor and nurse said you do not have to state, we will let you keep — do not have to state, we will let you keep an eye on him, you can go. so we— you keep an eye on him, you can go. so we left _ you keep an eye on him, you can go. so we left in — you keep an eye on him, you can go. so we left. in the middle of the night, — so we left. in the middle of the night, he — so we left. in the middle of the night, he wanted to go to the bathroom, but he could not find a nurse. _ bathroom, but he could not find a nurse. he — bathroom, but he could not find a nurse, he tried to get up and he fell over. — nurse, he tried to get up and he fell over, and he actually consequently got a brain bleed and died _ consequently got a brain bleed and died we _ consequently got a brain bleed and died. we went to the hospital the following — died. we went to the hospital the following day and asked what had happened, we asked why there was not a nurse _ happened, we asked why there was not a nurse in _ happened, we asked why there was not a nurse in attendance, and the head nurse _ a nurse in attendance, and the head nurse said _ a nurse in attendance, and the head nurse said it — a nurse in attendance, and the head nurse said it is because she was attending — nurse said it is because she was attending to an alcoholic. this went deep to— attending to an alcoholic. this went deep to us— attending to an alcoholic. this went deep to us as a family. here is my father, _ deep to us as a family. here is my father, an — deep to us as a family. here is my father, an outstanding —— upstanding citizen, _ father, an outstanding —— upstanding citizen, and _ father, an outstanding —— upstanding citizen, and they went to an alcoholic— citizen, and they went to an alcoholic who was feeling suicidal because — alcoholic who was feeling suicidal because he is depressed, because alcohol— because he is depressed, because alcohol at— because he is depressed, because alcohol at the end of the day is a depressant. i�*m alcohol at the end of the day is a depressant-— depressant. i'm so sorry that happened — depressant. i'm so sorry that happened to _ depressant. i'm so sorry that happened to your— depressant. i'm so sorry that happened to your father, - depressant. i'm so sorry that happened to your father, it l depressant. i'm so sorry that| happened to your father, it is unconscionable, it is awful. there are lots of things taken to excess that are damaging. ideas taken to excess are damaging. the that are damaging. ideas taken to excess are damaging.— that are damaging. ideas taken to excess are damaging. the thing about alcohol is people _ excess are damaging. the thing about alcohol is people on _ excess are damaging. the thing about alcohol is people on tv _ excess are damaging. the thing about alcohol is people on tv saying - excess are damaging. the thing about alcohol is people on tv saying the - alcohol is people on tv saying the pros and _ alcohol is people on tv saying the pros and the cons, there is not a substitute — pros and the cons, there is not a substitute for the government to raise _ substitute for the government to raise taxes. if we ban alcohol altogether, the government would be in a lot— altogether, the government would be in a lot of— altogether, the government would be in a lot of trouble because they havem — in a lot of trouble because they havem l — in a lot of trouble because they have... ., ., , .,, in a lot of trouble because they have... ., ., , have... i have to stop you there, because i — have... i have to stop you there, because i want _ have... i have to stop you there, because i want to _ have... i have to stop you there, because i want to see _ have... i have to stop you there, because i want to see mark - have... i have to stop you there, because i want to see mark in i because i want to see mark in guildford. hello. what do you think? i am an alcoholic and i am relapsing now. and i watch your show because i sit on the sofa drinking alcohol in the morning. i enjoy your show and it helps to be part of the world basically. you give me a chance to use my head rather thanjust basically. you give me a chance to use my head rather than just sit and drink. i would like to stick to the subject. alcoholism right now. the tax on non—alcoholic drinks that taste like alcohol should be less. what drinks are you talking about? what drinks are you talking about? what drinks are you talking about nonalcoholic beer? you what drinks are you talking about nonalcoholic beer?— what drinks are you talking about nonalcoholic beer? you pay the same arice for a nonalcoholic beer? you pay the same price for a nonalcoholic _ nonalcoholic beer? you pay the same price for a nonalcoholic beer. - nonalcoholic beer? you pay the same price for a nonalcoholic beer. i - nonalcoholic beer? you pay the same price for a nonalcoholic beer. i am . price for a nonalcoholic beer. i am lucky, i am price for a nonalcoholic beer. i am lucky, lam not price for a nonalcoholic beer. i am lucky, i am not that bad, i can go for months where ijust get one beer, but i am not encouraged to get the nonalcoholic beer. that's what i'm trying to say. i pay £5 70 in a pub in guildford for the same thing. all this tax. i could become drug dealer, i haven't done any of those things, but i couldn't. so what does that matter about the tax? i don't get the point about the tax. it's not stopping me. i'm on a mission at the moment, i'm trying to get to the next alcoholics anonymous meeting. the guy before, he is the real deal, the alcoholics anonymous man who has recovered. you the alcoholics anonymous man who has recovered. ., ., ~' the alcoholics anonymous man who has recovered. ., ., ,, ., , recovered. you would like to be in that situation. _ recovered. you would like to be in that situation. they _ recovered. you would like to be in that situation. they never- recovered. you would like to be in that situation. they never like - recovered. you would like to be in that situation. they never like to i that situation. they never like to sa the that situation. they never like to say they have — that situation. they never like to say they have recovered - that situation. they never like to say they have recovered and - say they have recovered and i understand that. three or four times, i have been sober and ifeel great. and i enjoy cups of coffee and cake. but i need that because i have got an addiction. apparently, 10% of people have real problems with alcohol, but 3% are alcoholic. we are talking about it tax. the tax has got nothing to do with it. all thatis has got nothing to do with it. all that is going to do is make more criminals out of us.— criminals out of us. listen, i've lost the line _ criminals out of us. listen, i've lost the line there. _ criminals out of us. listen, i've lost the line there. are - criminals out of us. listen, i've lost the line there. are you - criminals out of us. listen, i've . lost the line there. are you there? thank you for coming on. are you considering, because hearing it from you is really important, are you going to go to alcoholics anonymous and try and... two i going to go to alcoholics anonymous and try and. .. two— and try and... two i spent my life there. and try and... two i spent my life there- the _ and try and... two i spent my life there. the nhs _ and try and... two i spent my life there. the nhs or— and try and... two i spent my life there. the nhs or the _ and try and... two i spent my life | there. the nhs or the government have put me on sick leave, and i sit in my house, i am very lucky to have a council flat, in my house, i am very lucky to have a councilflat, and they in my house, i am very lucky to have a council flat, and they pay for it and i am just going to drink for the rest of my life basically. if i don't go to alcoholics anonymous. and the church, actually. that don't go to alcoholics anonymous. and the church, actually.— and the church, actually. that is oaod, i and the church, actually. that is good. i hope _ and the church, actually. that is good. i hope we _ and the church, actually. that is good, i hope we talk _ and the church, actually. that is good, i hope we talk again, - and the church, actually. that is. good, i hope we talk again, thank you for watching and listening to the problem —— programme every day. i really appreciate it. next time there is a topic that grabs you, please get in touch, what you have said today is born of great experience. and personal pain. thank you very much indeed. if you have been affected by issues in this discussion, there is a range of organisations and websites on the action mine website. work full—time, don't have much time, don't spend on holidays, cinemas, don't smoke, my treat as a bottle of wine or two on the weekend, i work hard all week, i do not drink to get drunk, just to unwind after a hectic week. now the costis unwind after a hectic week. now the cost is going up, the only treat i have, my work will be work, work, work, work and no play! that's the way it goes. thank you for listening, thank you for watching, this is the programme when you can express your views. live from london, this is bbc news. at least 20 people are killed and 19 are missing as storm doksuri batters northern china. police in australia say a former childcare worker has been charged with more than 1600 child abuse offences. all the children allegedly offended against were prepubescent girls. we allege the 45—year—old man from the gold coast recorded all his alleged offending on his phone and cameras. france says it'll start evacuating its citizens from niger on tuesday, after last week's military coup. and england prepare to take on china at the women's world cup in australia. hello. we start in northern china, where the death toll from heavy rains and flooding has risen to 20. authorities say 19 people are also missing in beijing and hebei, as rescue efforts continue. storm doksuri hit the country on friday, bringing almost a month's rainfall to beijing injust1r0 hours. military units and helicopters are now being used to deliver food and supplies to rail passengers who've been stranded by the flood waters. forecasters have warned of the potential for more flash flooding and landslides in the coming days. 0ur china correspondent stephen mcdonell sent this update from beijing. i will start with the good