while the west bought billions of vaccines quickly and cheaply, some people argue a global vaccine apartheid is unfolding with less wealthy nations missing out on supplies. hello, welcome to global questions with me, zeinab badawi. world leaders are constantly saying that covid—19 is a global problem that needs international cooperation. but do these words sound hollow when we see how rich nations are buying up supplies of covid vaccines? as they rush to vaccinate their entire populations, many poorer countries have yet to administer a single jab. that's global questions: vaccine apartheid. well, to bring you this edition of global questions, our two panellists and our questioners join us via video link. let me tell you who's in the hot seat this week giving the answers. carl bildt is a renowned international diplomat. he has served as both prime minister and foreign minister in his native sweden, and is now co—chair of the european council on foreign relations. he's been special envoy and representative for both the european union and the united nations in several hotspots, including the former yugoslavia. and john nkengasong is one of the world's leading scientists. he's director of the africa centres for disease control and prevention. born in cameroon, john is an eminent virologist with more than 30 years�* experience in public health. he has worked at the world health organization and is currently the who special envoy for africa. welcome to you both, gentlemen. and our questioners join us from all over the world. and of course, to you, wherever you're watching or listening to this. and remember, you, too, can join the conversation. it's #bbcglobalquestions. let's get down to our first question. and it is from the capital of zambia, lusaka and aubrey undendoola. aubrey, what do you want to ask our two panellists? my question is why is it that rich, developed nations- are putting aside very little, if any, vaccine doses - for developing nations? it's not an issue of rich nations being obliged, | but it's an issue of humanity. so where is the humanity? thank you all. very direct question there. carl bildt, where is the humanity? well, i think that humanity is there and as well as the self—interest because as long as everyone is safe, no one is safe. and what we are seeing now is the beginning of the setting aside of vaccines to be delivered all over the world through the different international mechanisms that have been set up. i mean, deliveries have been begun to different african countries in the last few days. and this isjust the beginning of an effort to try to share this across the world, because that is both humanity and obvious self—interest. all right. ok, i must say, i've heard this. it's, you know, we've all got to tackle it together because we're not all safe until everybody is. but that mantra is wearing a bit thin, clearly with people like aubrey. john, what's your response? do you see humanity? absolutely. i think the key question is humanity and we truly have to approach the timely access to covid vaccine from a humanity and security perspective. the collective security. we said all the good things and the nice things when the pandemic started that we have to have timely access and equitable access to covid vaccines when they become available. but again, we see that there is a significant delay and the continent of africa is only now beginning to get access to covid vaccines. while we celebrate that, we wish that that process should be accelerated and it should actually be made more expansive so that we can actually beat this pandemic because we are dealing with collective human security on our planet. so, john, just to make that clear, then, are you seeing a lack of humanity on the part of western nations, the europeans, for instance? no, i'm saying we should understand that this is not about one part of the world being secured and another part of the globe struggling. is that going on, in your opinion? i mean, you can tell carl bildt that directly. yeah. my message to northern colleagues, and friends and partners is that we have to do this simultaneously because it cannot be one part of the world who finished immunising and then another part of the world begins to immunize. carl, what do you say tojohn? no, no, ifundamentally agree with that. and the problem is, of course, that it takes some time to sort of get production up and running to the extent that we wanted to. this is an extraordinary effort of a magnitude that has never been undertaken. and to get the vaccines approved, to get the production facilities up and running, and to get the international or global distribution mechanism both up and running and financed. if you look at it, i think has been so far, so good. all right. let's see, aubrey. why did you ask that question, do you see a lack of humanity? i've seen that these vaccines are made available mostly. in large numbers within the rich countries. - i think the help, or— the assistance or the provision is close to limited, _ and that is the great concern. all right. thanks very much indeed. let's go to paris now, france, to elizabeth. elizabeth, your question, please. so i always thought that if you have the means . and you really want to help. someone, buying them food will teach them to be dependent on you and the food you give. i but teaching them to make . their own food will help them learn to be independentl and care for themselves. so why give them vaccines? why not help poorer countries make their own vaccines? - john, shouldn't africans just get together and say "we're going to work with our scientists and provide our own solutions and so on" and ask for technical know how and knowledge transfer and all the rest of it to make your own? that is absolutely a very good question, and that is what we are doing. we will be convening a meeting in africa at the highest level of the african union that will bring together the head of the leadership of the continent, policy makers and political leadership to really focus on april 12th on how do we begin to focus and commit ourselves to manufacturing vaccines on the continent, because this is a health security matter that we cannot mortgage our health security to external factors that we cannot control as a continent. so that is a very pertinent question that, believe me you, and trust that the african union and african cdc are working on that. all right. but, carl, in orderforthat to happen, the pharmaceutical companies and the western countries that invest in them have got to make sure that they are a bit more relaxed about intellectual property rights and, you know, allow other countries to get the know—how. will that happen? i think that's under way. there's a discussion going on in geneva to that effect and clearly it's in the interest of everyone, europeans and americans or whatever, for there to be sort of abundant production facilities across the world and for those to be able to produce as soon as possible for everyone. i mean, we are talking about a process of getting vaccines out to the majority of the population of the world. and that, of course, requires far more production facilities than we have available. i mean, we are building new ones in europe, but that is clearly not enough. yeah, i mean, you've got the serum institute in india is working with astrazeneca, the british—swedish manufacturers of one of the covid—i9 vaccines, because there is a problem with global supply, isn't there? i mean, it's notjust a question of having the money or not, butjust let me ask you very quickly about this, carl. some western governments say, look, we have invested public funds in the creation of these vaccines. why should we then just let other countries make the most of our investment? no, but i mean, there is a global commitment to help. i mean, that has been set up with the vaccine alliance, the covax facility explicitly to distribute vaccines across the world. i mean, there are tens of billions of dollars in order to make this possible, to get the vaccines out all across the world as soon as possible and then the different other treatments as well. that has to be said that that's part of the picture. all right. so, elizabeth, you've heard what our two panellists say. what do you think of their answers? there is always going to be the rich people| and the poor people. and somehow it's like the rich people need the poor people. to help them get richer. and it's the same thing - in the international society, like you have rich countries and poor countries, - and we don'tjust poor- countries, richer countries, and they're going to be able to get richer. - so it's like no country, i no rich country is actually going to help a poor country become richer because it's. going to be - detrimental to them. so a bit sceptical about getting any help from richer countries. all right. we've got a question on social media from israel, from mark apostille, who says, "should nations be encouraged or ordered to share vaccines with those countries who haven't successfully acquired the vaccines they require? and what, if any, mechanisms are available to enforce such equality?" let me give that to you, john. should rich countries like sweden, where carl bildt is from, be forced to help poorer countries such as yours, where you were born, cameroon? i don't think they should be forced, but there should clearly be an understanding that unless covid be eliminated everywhere it will continue to be anywhere in the world or pose a threat everywhere in the world. i think from that perspective, we need cooperation. of the spirit of solidarity, that governs all of us. we need to really speak to the values of the un, the spirit of cooperation, the spirit of solidarity that governs all of us. and i think that is what the covax facility symbolizes. to me, that is a great expression that we can work together through mechanisms like covax. and i believe that going forward is going to be a model that allow us to ensure that we govern pandemics in the most appropriate manner. so i don't know that we can order countries there, but we can work through the spirit of solidarity and cooperation to address health and security challenges of the world. ok, you mentioned covax, which, of course, that international fund whereby richer countries pay money into it so that the vaccines can be made available to poorer countries. but as you know, john, it's billions of dollars short of money, isn't it? and even if the money's there, the vaccine supply isn't. so that's what people say is going on there. only three countries in africa have actually received vaccines through covax so far. ok, let's go to st petersburg, russia, to helen lloyd. helen, your question, please. hi, i'm based in russia, - as you mentioned, and i've seen that russians canjust simply apply online for the local- vaccine, which is produced here. i and a number of latin american countries and central europeanl countries have also applied to russia for supplies - of the sputnik vaccine, i while at the same time, much western europe is being sort of quarrelling amongst i themselves about the i effectiveness of certain vaccines amongst older age groups and over the lack i of a vaccine supply. and the whole vaccine - roll—out programme has been, by their own admission, rather a shambles. - what impact do you think this has conerning the same - perception that people have of europe? - ok, well, a question, though, with a lot of texture around it. let's go to carl on that one. perceptions of europe. no, i mean, it is very true that we have had a very rigorous debate about the quality of these particular vaccines that we had the very sort of thorough examination of them. i think that's right, because the credibility of this particular approach is this is extremely important. but now the vaccine roll—out is going on in the different countries, it's accelerating. and i think we're ahead of russia, by the way, if we look at the numbers, but that is not significant. and we hope that there will be further vaccines available as well. in addition to the ones that we have at the moment. i mean, the russian vaccine has not been, they haven't applied for being able to distribute it in europe, but i hope they do that as well as well as others. i've got to ask you very quickly, carl, before i go to you, john. i mean, really, europe's not had a very good vaccine campaign. they went for this kind of collective procurement, even, you know, technically advanced. germany has to date only vaccinated just over six million of its own people. we've had more than 20 million here in the uk with a similar sized population. true, but what the uk did was that they took an emergency procedures, so they approved it somewhat earlier than we did in europe. that turned out to be probably correct, but you never know. there was a more rigorous standard applied to the vaccines than the rest of europe. then the mechanism in europe is i mean, europe is not only the big countries like germany. there is an effort to make certain that all european countries get it. i mean, the estonians and the maltese and the luxembourgers and the bulgarians and whoever had it been everyone against everyone. i think it would have been a disaster. we are all sort of union for all of the europeans. all right. ok, it's that "all for all" mantra coming back again, isn't it? ok, john. perceptions of europe. how does it look like in addis ababa, ethiopia, where you're based? we look at what is going on in europe and we are trying to learn lessons from that. i think it tells us two things, it's one thing to have vaccines, and then on the other hand, there's another whole dimension of vaccination. and we've always maintained that vaccines without vaccination is no vaccine. so i think that we are focusing on building systems that enable us to rollout vaccines quickly once we get vaccines available. and as you rightly stated, we are very pleased that ghana and nigeria are starting to get vaccines. so our strategy as africa, cdc and others, is to work with these countries to make sure that the uptake of vaccines is as quickly as possible — learning from what we are seeing from europe. thank you so much. let's go to minsk in belarus, tojohn sweeney. john, your question. my question is, could vaccine i diplomacy foster the emergence of new alliances and or relations that shift - geopolitical power? well, we've heard about vaccine diplomacy, haven't we? john, what do you say about that? i mean, you know, china has been sending vaccines to african countries and other countries in the developing world and russia also with its sputnik v. could they leverage this vaccine diplomacy and really use it as a kind of means of soft power? i think that all efforts to assist us as a continent to ramp up vaccination will be very, very welcome on the continent. and we should use the word "vaccine diplomacy" with care, because the issues that we are dealing with are serious issues. there are issues of life and death. on the continent of africa, more than 104,000 people have died on the continent. so this is not the time for basic diplomacy, which by simple definition is managing a relationship. this is time to step back and solve a challenge, an existential challenge that we have in front of us in a decisive manner so that we can save lives. i think for us as a public health agency, we lay emphasis on resolving the critical nature of this pandemic by using vaccine as the game changer to bring it to an end rather than diplomacy. right, well, how would you answer the question that john's posed? could the vaccine diplomacy lead to a shift in geopolitical power, is his question. well, i would very much hope that that is not going to be the case. i mean, there are efforts to see that the different nations, and we shouldn't name any names who are using it for pr purposes of the deliveries to friends and whatever, that is regrettable. i think we have to see this as an effort by humanity for humanity. it is an unprecedented challenge that all of us face. and i think we should lay politics aside. i mean, we can disagree on all sorts of issues. but in this particular case, and that's why i think that effort, at least on the european side and those americans on board as well, the us is to set up these covax efforts and the different global mechanisms to make certain it's not bilateral diplomacy, it's not winning friends and punishing enemies. it is trying to sort of help everyone. i mean, it's a question of distributing two billion doses of vaccine in a year. it's a tremendous global effort that is underway. but there's a place for altruism, isn't there? i mean, you know, iwill mention china by name because even before the vaccines came on the scene, they were sending shiploads of ppe, personal protective equipment to poorer countries, you know, notjust in africa, but elsewhere and so on. and they surely should be applauded for that. they should be applauded if those are regular deliveries. but when there is too much flag waving, not only from chinese side, we see that from the russian side as well, then it invites the suspicion that the primary purpose is not to help, but to gain friends, or score points and things like that. and i think that's a time for that, no question about that. but this is not the time for that. all right, john, so both our panellists kind of say, look, this is not the right time to make political capital of supplying countries with personal protective equipment or vaccines and so on. what do you think? i think it's a bit naive not - to assume that some countries won't try to maximize this - from a soft power perspective. i think as the saying goes, when you invent the ship, | you also invent the shipwreck. and it's very clear that some countries are looking to take advantage of these - opportunities and to try to leverage further power, - whether regionally or globally. all right. let's have a question now from bangalore in india. go ahead. yeah, hi, so my question is, many people mistrust - the coronavirus vaccine, . so if people refuse to take the vaccine, could they end up being discriminated against? i carl, you kick off on that one. a quick answer on that one. if people refuse to take it, should they be discriminated against? kind of domestic vaccine apartheid, as it were. i hope not, but, of course, if you look at travelling around europe, i think that will be, for example, a requirement that you can demonstrate that you have a test or vaccine or something like that. so i will just say that i would encourage everyone to take the vaccine, because that's going to be the best for everyone. all right, john, a lot of suspicion. you look at a poll in nigeria, for instance, something like 30% of people there don't want to take the vaccine. are you worried about discrimination between those who have it and those who don't? i think i would be worried with people that choose not to accept the vaccine because you are not protecting yourself and you're not protecting your loved ones. i think we should know that vaccines are the most important public health tool that we have, vaccines are very safe over the history of infectious diseases. and there's absolutely no reason not to take those vaccines because you are indeed helping yourself and helping others, because we must win this war against covid—19 collectively. final question from toronto, canada, kate mulligan. kate. hi, here's my question. there will be more pandemics. and global health emergencies. what are we doing now- and what should we be doing to ensure that we have a strong and equitable infrastructure - for future vaccination roll—outs? _ right. there you go, john. i think that's a very good question. there is clearly going to be other pandemics. and the way we prepare for the next pa