6th. and i think, lastly, it s really important to remember that it s not just cassidy hutchinson that has mentioned pat cipollone as a fly on the wall in these conversations. it s people like rich donoghue, jared kushner, as we discussed yesterday, people who said he was there for important moments. jared kushner called him a wimp for threatening to resign and threatening that the white house counsel s office would resign if trump did certain things, and rich donoghue also described him as, really, one of the only firewalls actually in the west wing to the former president s actions. you know, barbara mcquade, before him, don mcgahn was a witness to donald trump s actions and was so concerned about what he saw that he had a note taker. he had a chief of staff. and ultimately, robert mueller got ahold of don mcgahn to the tune of, i think, 20 to 30 hours of testimony. mcgahn is the key narrator of volume two of the mueller report
i don t know what he said today, but pat cipollone, you know, is no hero. the leadership at the department of justice, jeffrey rosen and rich donoghue, are no heroes. yes, you know, in the moment, they did what they could to stop trump from destroying american institutions, but they kept quiet about it. i m sure they told themselves all kinds of stories about how executive privilege and attorney-client privilege and other things precluded them from coming forward, but unless they ran to the biden administration on january 21st and told doj exactly what happened, then i do not consider them to be great patriots. that s a great point. ben, i want to show you the list of crimes committed by donald trump in the view of donald trump s first criminal attorney who represented him in the mueller probe, ty cobb. in a word, does the president deserve blame? yes. if it s as simple as, just do it, which i believe mr. bowers was told in arizona, that s highly problematic.